This episode brought to you by Rewiring America,
leading electrification nonprofit focused on
electrifying our homes, communities, and businesses.
Learn more at rewiringamerica .org. Well, hello,
everyone. Thank you so much for joining us once
again on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast.
So today we're spending some time with Alex and
Tom from Rewiring America. Gentlemen, how are
you doing today? Doing well. Doing great. thanks
for having us oh absolutely you know we'd um
we've talked before about the electrification
movement and the role that you're playing in
the industry and then um you know you struck
up a point that i just kind of forgotten about
i mean i knew it but i didn't really i guess
i haven't been considering the impact of it you
know there was a lot of our heat pump movement
and not just heat pumps but heat pump water heaters
solar installations there were a lot of energy
efficiency movements that were really doing well
across the country until we recently had the
federal incentives. taxed on that. And so I'm
actually putting together a mobile studio should
be ready in the next few weeks. And we're going
to be putting a solar system on it so that when
I'm out and about, I don't have to rely on gas,
fossil fuel generators for running the thing.
And so as I'm talking to the different installers,
like, you know, you got to get that done soon
because you only got to the end of the year for
your solar rebates. I'm like, oh, I forgot they
were axing that 30 % federal tax rebate for solar
as well. So when we start talking about The progress
that we made and the impact that it has, I think
it's very important for people to understand
what that means. So I'd really appreciate if
you guys could help us understand this transition
a little bit better. Definitely. You know, we
put together a campaign just now really to help
homeowners also realize this, right, that these
things are going away in pretty short order.
these are yeah federal credits the solar ones
in particular have been around for a long time
uh you know since you know mid mid -aughts and
then they were initially uh introduced in the
late 70s even wow um but you know for 25c and
25d um these were designed for people when when
they needed it you know when they when homeowners
were you know ready to make that upgrade when
some, you know, appliance failed. And now we're
kind of in a, yeah, use it or lose it fire sale
situation, which is not ideal. But for, you know,
people that happen to find themselves in that
situation or, you know, have been saving up to
make that upgrade, that's going to help them
on their bills. Now's the time to figure that
out. Now's the time to pick up the phone and
talk to contractors and see, first of all, if
they've got any room to take on this work, but
if they can do it inside this last few months
of the calendar year. So yeah, Save on Clean
Appliances is the campaign that we have. And
we've just got, you know, roadmap, basically
timeline for all the different credits and the
appliances that are expiring. We've got contractor
finder tools, which my colleague here can talk
about at length. And then we've got something
really cool with these drop -in sessions. So,
you know, we've come to learn, you know, again,
with this, with time being of the essence, really
trying to help people. get their kind of you
know very specific questions and troubleshooting
and just you know uh other other um you know
barriers that might be before them we're going
to help them with experts uh on staff and part
of our electric coach network so um that's the
campaign currently but zooming back out to get
more back to your question i mean i think we've
seen you know over the last past couple years
heat pump sales, you know, encroach and overtake
those gas furnaces. And then similarly, you know,
reducing the market share of just one, you know,
just one way ACs. And I think, you know, that's
in part because of these credits being available,
savvy contractors making it part of their pitches
and then rising consumer awareness. You know,
media posts in the Inflation Reduction Act did
a number of stories basically on these credits.
So I think that there's a lot of momentum and
it's going to carry us through. It's going to
be choppy waters for sure. But again, the performance,
the comfort that this type of appliances deliver
and the energy savings for tens of millions of
American families is still going to be a good
deal past the end of this year. Yeah, a lot of
people don't even realize what these incentives
are and the fact that they are going to expire
at the end of the year. Could you tell us a little
bit about what these incentives include? And
when we talk about end of the year, is that installation
date? Where are we at with that? Yes. So actually,
the IRS did put out a little bit of guidance
at the end of last week. um and as we expected
right um you got to look at these things in the
most uh conservative you know interpretation
possible so you know for solar that is that that's
that is that system is uh installed and you know
hooked up to the utility uh for for heat pumps
that's yeah that that that It's installed. It's
purchased and installed before December 31st.
And so, you know, zooming back, what we're primarily
talking about here is, you know, 25C and 25D,
25C. That's also installation, right? Windows,
doors. Those are things that, yeah, millions
of Americans make those upgrades and claim those
credits every year. Right. So, yeah, it is from
top to bottom. Anything having to do with improving
your home's energy efficiency, those credits
that you've been able to rely on, millions have
for decades now. You've now got a few short months.
So, you know, we're really focused on 25C. We're
talking about insulation. We're talking about
heat pumps, heat pump water heaters. We're talking
about better windows. And then on the 25D side,
that's going to be rooftop solar and storage.
And, you know, we did our homework before announcing
this campaign, talked to contractors in our network
and really on the HVAC side, got the sense that
there's room to take on increased demand. And
in fact, that most folks were getting more phone
calls on the 25D, the solar side, it's a little
bit less likely. And so for folks thinking about
that, really got to make sure you talk to a solar
installer, you know, pronto. Yeah. Well, I know
just from the three different companies that
I called. Three weeks ago, when I first contacted
them, they were all, you know, two to three weeks,
maybe four weeks out. And then I got an email
last week from one of the companies that said,
hey, I'm booked out right now until the middle
of October. It's probably going to be first of
November, realistically, if you can't decide
over the weekend. So that's really starting to
push our installation dates. And so we have to
be very aware that if we are considering doing
that purchase in the next few months, I would
be getting it planned. and scheduled now just
to make sure because we don't want to get towards
the end of the year and go, oh, you know, I've
decided I'm going to go ahead and purchase this
by the end of the year and then contact a few
local contractors realizing that you're not going
to be able to get it installed by the end of
the year. And that is really the big concern,
especially like this conversation. That's why
I wanted to have this is I don't think people
are realizing that that that is an installation
date. That is not a purchase date. Yeah, it's
an unfortunate situation. But yeah, I really
appreciate you taking the time to make that point.
And again, we got resources on our website and
we're going to be shouting it from the rooftops
as best we can. So nobody misses it that can
take advantage of it. Exactly. So, Tom, what
are we seeing for rebates, particularly for like
heat pumps or even heat pump water heaters? What
could what could a consumer potentially receive
at the federal? And are there other incentives
that could be even stacked on top of that? Well,
the 25C. is up to $3 ,200 annual. Now that would
be not only, as Alex said, not only for heat
pumps, but also include those other energy efficiency
upgrades. But each homeowner needs to also look
at their local and their state levels because
there are also state incentives that they could
also get as well. We're seeing several states
really step up and do some amazing things with
their rebates that we're seeing stuff up in New
England, also out West like Colorado. And so
we're looking at not only this federal, but they
also need to see what's local to them. And part
of our website is also helping point people to
the right places for their area. They're able
to go in, put in where they live, and it's able
to help them find out what's available to them
in their area. Oh, fantastic. I know for myself,
you know, I've been looking at what things I
can do. I'm building a new barn dominium. And
so I've been doing all the finishing. I'm getting
into the mechanics now. And I was able to find
a new heat pump water heater on sale at Lowe's
and then factoring in my. potential 30 on the
federal side and then this is going to be installed
out in the country it was a you know co -op that
i didn't anticipate having any rebates and they
had a 500 rebate on this heat pump water heater
so i'm going to be able to install this high
performance heat pump hybrid heat pump water
heater and it is a wi -fi enabled and i will
be able to install that thing less than the cost
of a standard efficiency electric or gas water
heater And so that's the things that we have
to be very aware of as contractors and as consumers
that in many instances, this is a very significant
rebate and discount on these really high quality
products. Yeah, one of the things I found when
I came to Rewire is I just didn't realize there
were so many different opportunities available
out there. And it was really eye -opening to
me because I had only played in the HVAC world.
That was kind of been my everything. And to come
and to see that, first off, that Rewire has compiled
such a great group of people is amazing. The
work they're able to do and compile that, but
have this one area of resource that they can
go to. that has all of this information that,
you know, and they could map out their electrification
course. And there's just so much available there.
And so it was really eye opening to me as the
one who was just staying in my lane for so many
years. And now to see all this that's that's
available. And so people need to really do the
research. But our goal is to to to make it where
we have a one resource where they can go and
see all that, you know, all these different information
and point them to the right directions. Yeah.
And we got Right now, just to double down on
that, you know, our calculator, which is the
kind of lowest lift, you know, quick, quick thing
to get you into the ballpark of what you might
be eligible for. That's a comprehensive of 30
states currently and counting. So from the state,
local utility level and federal incentives that
are that are going away. And then, you know,
not part of this. big beautiful bill act that
eliminated these long -standing federal incentives
are the the the federally funded but state implemented
rebate program where right now I think there's
like 13 states that got one or the other program
up and running and basically every state but
one applied for that money and so you know still
choppy waters for that as well uh in terms of
what states are hearing from the department of
energy and what you know uh dots they are eyes
they got a dot and t's they got a cross but that
money's still there and and states want it uh
every state in this country except one wants
that money so um hopefully we start to see a
few more states announce their programs roll
it out and make it available to contractors and
homeowners Yeah, no, I definitely look forward
to that. And it's great that you're collecting
all this data into one place. We've been getting
a lot of consumer and contractor phone calls.
So we've even been considering on our landing
page putting a consumer resource or consumer
information section. And I would love to be able
to link your site because it gives them all of
the resources they need when they're looking
at these purchases. And especially with the contractor
database. Tell me a little bit more about the
contractor database that you'd mentioned earlier.
Yeah, so that's kind of been my real focus here.
One thing is kind of leading into that, though,
as we were compiling information and asking our
folks on the product team to give us an understanding
of what kind of traffic we're seeing. We have
already had more than one million use our calculator
to understand what incentives they qualify for.
And over 40 ,000 have created personal electrification
plans with 25 % of them include or heat pumps
or heat pumps and something else. So seeing a
lot of high volume, which gets us to the point
of one of the things that was the focus of when
I come here was we wanted to build a contractor
network because to me, and I use words that sometimes
that they shock people a little bit to me to
install a heat pump and not do it correctly and
not deliver on what you promised it to me. it's
it's almost criminal in my mind i just and the
reason being having spent so many years on tech
support in oem world i just can't tell you how
many jobs i went out to and saw it done incorrectly
and i had to bite my tongue because oems want
to keep selling equipment yeah i got a product
but right it is what it is i mean i'm not begrudging
any of those folks i still got a lot of friends
at the brands that i used to work for but that's
just the way it is and so we wanted to create
a contractor network of people that uh we've
vetted uh so in at least some form or fashion
and so it just so happens that uh Bill Spohn
and Kevin Hart created Better HVAC. So they contacted
us. We were talking, you know, we wanted to create
a contractor network. They wanted to create a
contractor network. Well, let's collaborate on
this. And so we are working with them. We're
going to actually roll out. There'll be a big
press release. I believe it's September 9th,
just in time for the NCI Summit. And we are partnering
together. to build a contractor network. So what
will happen is, you know, folks will go to betterhvac
.org to kind of come in the funnel. But once
they come in, they'll be asked if they would
like to go through the process to also be listed
on Rewire America's website as our contractor
in our contractor network, because what we're
doing, we'll be pulling that data from their
database, but only the ones that meet the criteria.
So let me tell you what that is real quick. They
have to take a pledge, right? First off, we're
going to, we want to, copy of their mechanical
license to see that their license also certificate
of insurance to make sure everything's legit.
And then from there, the pledge is that the fact
that they're going to do a low calculation on
every job. Oh, wow. Whether it's a replacement
or whether it's new, it does not matter to us.
We've seen so many oversized systems out there
not performing. It's just, you know, my own house
was, to be quite honest. I downsized my system,
you know, and I got the receipts to show how
well it performs. So, you know, it's paramount
that we size equipment correctly if we want comfort.
I did a post not too long ago. I was like, in
what other world can you say that you're going
to deliver 10 widgets and not even count how
many widgets you gave? them. Right. And you're
like, well, here's a box of widgets. You know,
I promised you 10, but however many is in a box
is how many you're getting. Here's your box.
Yeah. And so that takes me to the fact that not
only do a low calculation, but also follow manual
S sizing practices. Nice. Manual D of duct is
also a part of it. We heavily, we heavily suggest
doing the static pressure test. If it's a, if
it's a replacement system, measure the static,
if that blower works in that existing system,
we'll see what kind of duct work you got before
you do it. We're also going to be offering resources
to the people in our network, some training resources,
things like that. So following the manual J,
S, and D, and then also that there's going to
be a proper commissioning of the system, including
proper documentation. And we also have some resources
that we show what it is that we require as far
as documentation, because if we get all the right
readings, then we can calculate capacity. If
you're saying that system is going to meet X
amount of BTUs, then why aren't we measuring
it to make sure we deliver it? amount of vtus
or we're meeting x amount of efficiency right
it's all math and we get the right readings you
can you know easily calculate that stuff obviously
there's software out there such as measure quick
that also does that we uh myself and my uh my
cohort Darren, we're both actually certified
measure quick trainers. And so we're going to
be offering some, some of those kinds of resources
also to people in our network. So by then looking
at, you know, and then the final part is that,
you know, we're going to also have a feedback
tool. So anybody that chooses a contractor from
our network. and then they're able to come in
and give us a response back to how that went
so reviews as well as if there's an issue we
will follow up with that contractor now we know
there's always two sides of every coin so we're
going to listen to what's going on we're going
to get with the contractor try to get the situation
resolved number one secondly then go back and
look how did it happen kind of do a more of a
deep dive root analysis because we want anybody
that's chosen from our website to know that we
at least did our due diligence to say these are
the requirements you know now you can't go out
to every job site with everybody but we can say
you know what here's the requirements to be part
of our network and you're committing to that.
And then if there is an issue, we're going to
follow up. And if they, you know, if they're
not complying, then we'll deal with it then.
But so we're really excited about partnering
with Bill and Kevin at Better HVAC because those
are great. They want the same things we want
as well. And so being able to partner with them
and be able to link together to try to achieve
this is going to be really cool. So what will
happen though on Better HVAC is you'll see a
little rewire badge. And so. working on some
additional badges that uh that people can earn
uh as well so uh you know if they're a part of
maybe like aka or something like that they'll
be able to note those things as well and so when
and we'll be pulling that information in so when
somebody goes to our contractor network and they
see okay well the only people showing up are
people that have the rewire badge but oh look
at this these folks they're also belong to this
organization this organization this they do aka
quality uh qi right or whatever the case may
be uh and so we want to be able to showcase those
things and so people can make a good honest decision
on who they want to use and try to get the best
folks that we can. um and so that's what we call
it kind of our tier one level our associated
contractor level now we do have some projects
that we're working on uh specific projects where
we partner with oems and those contractors have
to go through an even more stringent process
uh and so but the idea is is that when we get
to the next city like so right now let's say
that we got one going in rhode island uh but
let's say that we come to your town wherever
that is right you're in midwest somewhere right
yeah just outside of indianapolis yeah so let's
say we come to your your area and we're going
to do a project there um then we would also we
would the whole idea of building this network
out is not only will people be looking this network
but when we do come to an area then we have people
to draw from and say hey do you want to go to
this next level and do these projects with us
but in that level we get a look copy of that
load calculation we get a copy of that contract
to see what the sizing was so that we could check
against it we made some tools to easily do that
and then we get a copy of the actual commissioning
report so that we we have record that we can
check those things just you know uh one to make
sure that we deliver uh clifton is the biggest
thing and i think that you and i both know in
our industry there's been issues with people
not delivering and the homeowners suffer for
it and that's what really bothers me the most
i can fix my equipment you can fix yours But
these homeowners out here, they're kind of at
the mercy of whoever they get. And so our contractor
network is all about making sure we deliver quality
with integrity and that they get what they paid
for. Because if we help, especially low income
housing, we help them get a high efficiency heat
pump that they're looking to save on energy,
but then it's installed incorrectly. They don't
see the savings. They put the money out. We got
to do better. And so we not only are building
the network, but we're also building some educational
resources, some things that we're going to help
our contractors with to also help hone their
skills and bring some real value to them about
being part of our network. Sorry I got a little
long -winded on that. I've been spending so much
time on this. I love it. This is my thing. Yes.
yeah yeah no i absolutely love following all
of your analytics i watch everything you do in
social media and i just i'm grateful that we're
moving as an industry we're going to see a lot
more of you know these quality installations
going forward i've been for a few months advising
on a new protocol that utilities are wanting
to implement to validate that a system was installed
properly if it's going to get its uh you know
badge of approval for our energy efficient system
what is that And you're right, it comes down
to commissioning. So we're actually looking and
I'm working with manufacturers on a connected
commissioning protocol that would help in assisting
in that generating that commissioning report
to be able to say, okay, it's supposed to perform
at this. And after it was installed, it actually
performs at this. And if it meets expectations
of the utility, you qualify for your rebates.
If not. somebody better go back and fix things
properly. And we're going to need that as we
start working with, you know, more advanced,
higher efficiency pieces of equipment. So I truly
commend what Rewiring America is doing in the
industry right now. We appreciate that. I got
to tell you that I took your course, by the way,
the Energy Skilled. Did I get that correctly
in the name? I always get the name. I get the
name wrong. I wanted to go through it myself
first. And of course, I ended up also purchasing
the curriculum so that we could deliver it. And
one of the things that we're actually offering
our contractors is folks that want to, especially
the ones doing our specific projects, if they
want to be Energy Skilled certified, that we
will actually provide that for them. We'll provide
the training and do the testing, which will obviously
be through you guys using the online testing.
And so we're really excited about that. First
off, I love how it was done. You did a great
job not saying that because we're together on
video, but it was done really well. It was needed.
I've even seen a lack on the OEM side, not really
explaining inverters very well. They don't understand
what PWM is. They don't understand what IGBTs
are. And we need to understand these things if
we're going to be installing and working on it.
So we're promoting that within our organization
to our contractors that, hey, if you want to
get this, if you want to get this badge, this
energy skill badge, it's great material. You
would benefit greatly from it. Not to mention
you get the badge. Yes. And part of the Google
search engine, which is a big benefit. And so
we're starting to see that developing even stronger
right now where, you know, once you gain that
energy skilled recognition, you actually get
put into a premium SEO search through not just
the Google. but through other search engines
so it's a big benefit for a contractor and there's
a variety of products so the department of energy
is moving into other product categories that
will have energy skilled recognition heat pump
water heaters there will also be energy auditing
there is going to be inverter driven rooftop
package units for residential light commercial
so there's a lot of cool things coming down the
pipeline through that energy skilled program
Yeah, that's exciting. That's exciting news.
We're really all about making sure that it's
done correctly and making sure people just are
properly trained. There's obviously a lack of
that. There's a lot of great trainers out there.
You and I both know many of them, but there's
just still so much that needs to be done. And
so we want to try to ratchet that level up a
little bit. I agree. Well, thank you so much,
Rewiring America, for pushing our industry forward.
How can we learn more about the contractor database
and about all of the resources that you are doing
right now? Yeah, quickest place right now, rewiringamerica
.org backslash save. And so that is. all about
what's happening right now with the closing window
on the federal incentives but that gets you to
the the contractor uh network page as it is now
but as huff said we're going to be making that
bigger announcement here in just a couple weeks
um and then on that same page we've got you know
especially for uh you know homeowners these drop
-in sessions where they can get real expert on
the projects that they're considering and hopefully
to encourage them to, you know, act with confidence
and act quickly here in this moment. So rewiringamerica
.org backslash save is the best place to go.
All right, gentlemen, thank you so much for your
time and encourage everyone to go learn more
about what's happening at Rewiring America.