All right, everyone, thank you so much for joining
us once again on Did You Know? You know, we spend
a lot of time talking about the A2L transition,
especially in the residential side and the mitigation
controls and the strategies that we're going
to be using for residential applications. But
we don't always talk a lot about what's happening
in the commercial side, whether it's in commercial
HVAC or it's in the refrigeration sector. And
there's a lot of questions in the industry. A
lot of people are concerned with refrigerants.
And we're just trying to break those fears because
there's not a lot of fear involved with this.
It really comes down to just education. It's
not our first refrigerant transition. You know,
it's just another rodeo. And so we need to help
educate the industry on what's happening. So
I'm very fortunate to spend some time with Johnson
Controls to talk about solutions for our A2L
detection as well as mitigation strategies and
hopefully keep this industry as simple as possible
because we don't need a thousand control. and
a thousand strategies, we can use intelligent
controls to be able to simplify all of it. And
this is a very intriguing product. And I just
think we ought to be able to help the industry
understand what's available to them and how easy
this whole A2L transition can be. Yeah, absolutely.
All right. So let's walk me through where we're
at as far as mitigation controls and what the
solution provides us. Sure. I'd be glad to. And
I think the key word here is smart or intelligent
controls that help with serviceability. This
is Johnson Controls under the Penn brand name,
newest modular electronic control system called
System 550. The module on the left -hand side
here is the control module. This is where all
the brains are. the module in the middle is simply
a transformer it's a power supply sure so it
provides the 24 volts either ac or dc that's
needed to power the electronics and then we we're
not using it in this particular application that
i have configured but the last module here is
what's called an expansion module and it will
provide either two more relay outputs or you
could have an expansion module that will provide
two analog outputs so you can have a combination
of relay and analog outputs up to a total of
10 outputs okay yeah but to talk specifically
about a2l leak detection and mitigation this
is a full functioning control meaning that it
supports both single and multi -stage with temperature
humidity and pressure sensor inputs as well as
it has the full capabilities of A2L leak detection
and mitigation. What I mean by full capabilities
is that the controller in the sensor and this
is an example of the sensor in combination are
considered an RDS or refrigerant detection system.
Absolutely. So they have all of the requirements
that are under UL 60335 both dash 2 dash 40 and
dash 289 to qualify as an RDS. 40 and 89. So
technically this could even be used in a residential
style application if need be. Oh, wow. And so
with the modular, now I'm starting to see what
you meant by modular. So this is actually a full
control network and it's expandable for the amount
of outputs that we would need to be able to control.
That's right. Not only that, but the backplane
is communicating from the controller to the expansion
modules via Modbus. and that's what gives us
the intelligent A2L leak detection and mitigation
because it's doing a handshake with one or more
A2L sensors so it knows you can see on this particular
sensor here that the refrigerant type R454A is
marked on the sensor the OEM that integrates
this into their equipment will also select the
refrigerant that they're using and it's going
to do a handshake with a sensor to make sure
that you've plugged in the right sensor so it's
a communicating network and it's a communicating
network correct no joke so if if i have a large
piece of equipment maybe it's a package rooftop
system and i have to use multiple sensors i will
also in addition to selecting the refrigerant
type i'll select the number of sensors that i
use and our particular controller is set the
factory setting or the digital trip point on
the A2L is a 20 % LFL. Yeah, sure. Or a lower
flammability limit. You bet. If you want to warm
below that, you also have the capability with
this controller to actually set a... lfl level
lower than that digital trip point for a different
alarm set point we have a lot of customers that'll
want 15 10 give me an initial warning yeah so
we know what's going on so yeah it's pretty flexible
there and how you want to set up your system
you know i see this as a solution not just for
the equipment that is going to be for either
hvac or refrigeration but we've had a lot of
questions and concerns from say hydronic you
know boiler manufacturers that are operating
in the same mechanical room as an a2l say an
a2l air handler and they want to make sure that
they control their ignition controls on their
device well now it becomes a simple modular component
that could be introduced into any application
as a standalone A2L mitigation strategy. Yeah.
And this has the capability of doing staging,
runtime optimization, so that it actually is
smart enough to know if I have a modular boiler,
you know, several. Right. And I turn boiler one
on and let's say it stays on for an hour. Next
time I have a call for heat. I'm going to turn
boiler number two on and I'm going to record
that amount of time on the controller. Wow, from
an engineering aspect, that really simplifies
the build of it because now we can use a single
control in a mechanical room for a variety of
different equipment functions. I don't think
you're going to find too many controllers with
this much functionality at this price point.
okay and it's interesting we start talking about
communicating so we have a communicating sensor
as part of the control itself is that something
that can be monitored remotely then yes so every
one of the controllers the chipset that we're
using is broadcasting a local wi -fi signal really
so i can actually upload new firmware to the
device through a local wi -fi i can also download
and upload config files. So let's say today,
if I'm in a manufacturing environment, I want
to manufacture the same commercial refrigeration
equipment. And I don't want to, you know, turn
the knob and configure each device individually.
I can configure what I want as a config, you
know, configuration. And then I can download
that through Wi -Fi. Copy it. to my to my pc
yep right and then in a production environment
i can take a usbc cable and i can plug it in
to this usbc port and because i'm getting power
from my computer i don't even have to power the
control system oh it can be standalone because
it's getting power from the usb cable i can program
this at the shop and have it ready to go to send
out on the job all of my um my modules and I
can have them programmed, pre -programmed without
even powering them. Now we're getting somewhere.
Through the computer. Wow, you put a lot of thought
and design into this. Well, a lot of customer,
voice of customer. Yeah, a lot of industry input.
So it's a little bit difficult to see here, but
if you take a look on the right side of this
last module, which is the expansion module, in
this case, it's a relay expansion module. you
can see where this controller, or this sensor
rather, this A2L sensor is wired in. And this
has physical room for two sensors to be connected.
If I need to have more physical space for more
A2L sensors, we have a modular similar to this,
similar to these, that's called a junction wiring
module. that will accommodate up to six a2l sensors
no kidding so you know again those are things
that when we first got our pre -production samples
out and speaking with our oem customers like
well in some cases we're going to need more than
two sensors right so what can you do to accommodate
us so simple add another module exactly add another
module that's the that's the flexibility of this
system what makes it nice is that From the technician
standpoint, you can name the application, right?
You understand what sensor in every application
if there's an issue. So what's every tech want?
Information before I go to the job site with
what the problem is, where it is, and what I
think I'm going to have to do or need with me
before I get there. That's the best. So that's
what it's really all about. So another feature
that we've, and I'm going to demo it here, that
we've incorporated in the control system is an
equipment manufacturer, before they lock down
their configuration, they're going to want to
make sure, do I have all of my sensors wired
correctly? Yeah. Do I have my A2L sensors configured
correctly? And do I have my controller configured
correctly? So we have a function here called
test lock. which doesn't lock the controller
down permanently sure it can be unlocked and
then i can simulate here by a little tool that
we have this has a program in it and so i'm simulating
a sensor you can see here that this gas type
is our 454a right what we looked at earlier so
it matches what's configured here and now i right
now if i had a sensor hook up to this which i
i'm doing through the simulation right it says
there's no leak present right but now what i
can do is i can simulate oh i can introduce a
leak not a percentage 10 and you'll see immediately
that it comes up and it says i'm warning now
at 10 and that warning light has now come on
and so if i had programmed a 10 alarm i could
actually be getting that first stage alarm right
in test mode and if i were connected to the cloud
right i could see it there i could see it on
my mobile device absolutely in real time also
keith about the light on here is it big enough
can i put a light up big light up like an auxiliary
on me strobe light at the application to be able
to give me that in addition to wi -fi communication
yeah wow so you will you will see it on the screen
here but more importantly if you're remotely
connected to the device through the cloud right
you're going to see it 24 hours a day 365 days
a year you're going to know the health of your
equipment and whether or not the product that
you're Trying to preserve is at the right temperature.
So I'm assuming we're going to be so we're communicating
Wi -Fi is there any type of like like RS -485
that could be introduced into a standalone or
an automated building management system? That's
a really great question and a lot of Requests
that we get so we are working on a module now
That will actually tap in another module called
a communication module. Yeah, absolutely You
know this because you've been in the HVAC, our
industry, for quite a while. On the refrigeration
side, equipment there wants to speak my bus,
right? On the building automation side or the
HVAC side, most of the equipment is speaking
BACnet, in our case, mostly MSTP. Oh, sure. Okay.
So we are working on a communication module that
will allow you to basically take all the data.
that's coming from the control module and pass
that along to either your supervisory controller
or some type of auxiliary controller. I think
as a contractor, if I'm an installing contractor,
I kind of want both abilities. I want to be able
to have my cloud access, particularly if I could
set this at a 10%. If I'm a contractor... I don't
want the building management system going into
an alarm that maybe somebody doesn't even know
when it hits 20%. If I could do a cloud recognition
at 10%, I can dispatch, show up on site going,
I've got an alarm on my side that I'd like to
take a look at before we get anything. Yeah,
that's really nice. So now I'm at 10 % and I'm
warning because the light's on here. And then
if I take it to 25%, which is above my trip point,
You can see now that I've actually gone into
mitigation. Okay. Okay, what does that mean?
Well, I've turned my compressor off. Right. And
I'm turning my evap fans on. Get circulation.
To dissipate the concentration of refrigerant
to get it below that 20 % LFL trip point. Absolutely.
I'm going to now clear. So I'm going to basically
assume now. That leak has stopped or at least
the amount of refrigerant has leaked out and
I've dissipated it. And now I'm going to clear
my leak. And now you can see that I've gone into
a countdown. Right. By the UL standard. Yeah.
I have to keep it in basically this kind of wait
mode. Yeah. For five minutes. Yeah, absolutely.
Transitional soft lockout mode. The new firmware
that we have will actually count this down. right
now i have to just kind of wait wait for it five
minutes yeah once it's done then i can confirm
the alarm and it will go back into its normal
mode you know one of the things that i've seen
on some of our larger capacity especially if
we get into like that m3 status where we have
high refrigerant charge and we may require additional
strategies like maybe a pump down mode using
an additional solenoid are those types of controls
part of the modular yes so again most of those
schemes that you talked about yeah whether it
be isolation valves or a pump down you're going
to control through relay no kidding so you have
the ability to control your relays in the normal
mode you decide okay when the temperature isn't
satisfied do i want my compressor on or compressor
off in normal mode. And then when it goes into
mitigation, what do I want the status of those
to be? And what's important with that is it gives
you the flexibility, for instance, with an isolation
valve, right? It'll probably be a normally open
set of contacts. Well, whether you lose power
or whether you go into mitigation. You want those
isolation belts to be closed. So you have to
have the way to configure it so that they're
in the proper state when you go into mitigation
and when the power is off. Makes complete sense.
So there's a lot of flexibility here. And you
do that, again, by adding the expansion modules.
Yeah. I'm really liking this idea because you
can start with however minimal of a strategy
you need. up to whatever capability of strategy
you need simply by adding the modules and changing
the programming. I mean, we're manufacturers
and contractors if they want, you know, to look
at kind of a field engineering solution. Yeah.
Where they get the most out of a controller like
this is use the full functionality. I see that.
So that's where, you know, a combination of temperature
control or temperature and humidity control or
temperature, humidity, and pressure control with
the A2L leak detection and mitigation. You know,
I guess I... almost skipped past that so we're
not talking about just a a2l detection and mitigation
we're talking about a full system controller
correct correct with a2l detection and mitigation
yeah and then like i said before but modular
chillers modular boilers yeah or it could be
single stage chiller single stage boiler um you
know all of your refrigeration applications so
we have all the defrost modes incorporated in
here oh wow off -cycle defrost electric defrost,
hot gas bypass, and adaptive defrost. So adaptive
is where it actually learns and optimizes the
defrost cycle. Yep, absolutely. We're seeing
that a lot as we move forward because we can
now manage those defrost cycles using some temperature
thermistors and occasionally a transducer. We
can monitor the actual coil temperatures. It's
absolutely necessary. yeah you know if we think
about if we got an ambient temperature that is
you know 40 degrees why do i go into defrost
i've already got some heat out there that i can
utilize if i'm managing my defrost properly and
then i can control the lengths of those cycles
there's a lot of flexibility in in managing defrost
and we're going to be able to we're going to
handle a lot of capability then with the single
modular control yeah let's see if we're in uh
if we're in countdown or not Looks like we're
still in countdown. So we won't let it. Oh, OK.
We finished countdown now. And now you can see
the screen is saying confirm that now we can
go back into normal mode. And that's, you know,
again, because we're connected via Modbus, we
can tell why did the. controller alert why did
it alarm we can tell the difference between a
refrigerant leak and a sensor failure or a sensor
that went end of life and that's one thing i'm
going to talk about now okay because we can see
the lfl level yeah in addition to the features
that i talked about there's also a 0 to 10 volt
output that you can again tie into a supervisory
controller and it will tell you the highest LFL
value of any sensor connected to the controller.
Okay. So in this case we know, because we saw
the 25 % LFL, but specifically as Bill talked
about earlier, you have the ability to name your
sensors, so you can actually tell, okay, it was
the number one sensor that's located on the left
-hand side of the evaporator coil, and I know
that's the one. that i need to pay attention
to on the leak side oh now that's really adding
some features to it you know if we think about
a system that has multiple sensors and we're
tracking that lfl and now we can actually track
and graph we can monitor you know what if i have
a sensor picking up a small amount of refrigerant
leak at a particular time every day now i can
go back and look at my trends and go oh that's
when we went into hot gas defrost I better start
looking for a leak on that loop. Yeah, that's
a good, that is a very good point. So again,
this is an intelligent system. It's full featured.
It gives you the ability to expand your outputs
on either adding relays or adding analog output.
So very, very flexible in terms of control types.
Will this be hitting the market pretty soon?
It was released last October. Really? Wow. Yeah,
it was released last October. We've been working
with OEMs. So you know the first compliance date
was January 1 of this year for AC equipment.
So most of the AC manufacturers that are using
this, they've already complied with UL or ETL
or some other agency. And now we're continuing
to work with commercial refrigeration manufacturers
that, again, see the benefit of having a control
that can do not only A2L leak detection and mitigation,
but also some of the other functions that they're
using the controller for today. you bet well
you look at a you know refrigeration manufacturer
you know if i am a component manufacturer and
i'm going to be producing a say an evaporator
coil and i don't know what refrigerant that is
going to be installed on i now have one controller
if i'm in an a1 refrigerant i just need my primary
controller if i'm going to be going on to an
a2l system i'm just adding a module and now i'm
completely in compliance with that same base
control you don't have to use a2l leak detection
and mitigation yeah you can when it comes from
the factory it's disabled yeah if you want to
use it you enable it i think a lot of the customers
we talked to keep too right a year and a half
ago it was oh i've got to have a new controller
designed or i've got to go back and have my 5
000 controller capable of accepting sensors and
you know we're coming in with a simple but very
high value option for them and it's been amazing
how many of them have said yours is plug and
play for me oh yeah i don't have to redo my full
controller for the building and everything else
it fits right in and it's a cost -effective option
to what we have now you're almost starting to
get into the sensor side when you you're starting
to talk about that Keith kind of leads into yeah
just technology but what's continuing to evolve
yeah it's an evolving landscape yeah so this
particular sensor uses sound technology yeah
so it's the fastest sensor out there sound technology
is relatively new to leak detection but we've
had several now of our customers actually do
specific testing to make sure the sensor was
picking up the right concentration and all of
them the results have shown that that they're
within spec certainly within spec so speed of
sound there's simply put there's two stainless
steel debt discs behind this hydrophobic screen
this hydrophobic screen allows gases to pass
through but sheds liquids so as that refrigerant
leaks and that gas then pools inside the sensor
cavity then it's going to measure not only the
sound wave it's going to measure that because
part of the ul60335 is that it's self -monitored
right so every minute it checks its calibration
against a temperature and humidity baseline why
because speed of sound changes based on temperature
and humidity right right so it's got a temperature
and humidity sensor yeah not only that but it
has a countdown so the life is 15 years right
because it's communicating through modbus it
is counting down how many days are left on the
sensor when it gets to 90 days from the end of
life if you just have the controller here is
going to give you a badge or an alert saying
you need change you're approaching this point
right and then if you're connected to the cloud
you're going to get start getting alerts on your
smart device so you know at some point if you
don't change the sensor out it's going to go
end of life right and your system's going to
be down so that's another point of smart smart
is not only is it functioning correctly is it
within its lifespan. And that's been a big concern
of technicians. You know, what is the life expectancy?
How often do I need to replace these? There's
been a lot of miscommunication amongst technicians
not understanding that these have a life expectancy
that's typically in the range of the equipment
and understanding that some of our better sensors,
I know this one very well, I've been studying
the different types of technology we're using
and it really has been a very accurate sensor
and the whole communication component. Where
the sensor actually knows its life and can give
us those alarms really simplifies the whole maintenance
side. How do you make the contractor's life easier?
That's it. Right? I mean, everybody's got so
much going on. The more information we can share
with them, the smarter they are when they go
out on the job site. Yeah. Now, the other sensor
that's been out there for a while, not only for
A2L, but for... just a general thing is ndir
non -dispersive infrared it's it's reliable it's
just not as fast as speed of sound yep and when
you're talking about refrigerant leaks you know
you want something that's not only reliable but
extremely fast i've seen a lot of our um even
our portable refrigerant leak detection devices
go into this technology. And I mean, it's really
smart when we think about it. You know, some
of our, many of our previous sensors, you know,
had heated components to them. And whether they
reached a high temperature threshold or not,
they were heated components. And as we start
looking at sensors that are detecting potentially
mildly flammable gases using a technology that
is low temperature as well as, you know, a lower
amount of current. uh this makes for a smarter
uh decision going forward i think personally
okay we want to talk about the next step in the
industries on sensors we're working on right
everybody came out one refrigerant one sensor
the way it works now we're along with a number
of companies are working on a sensor for multiple
refrigerators oh good yeah so yeah 454 a b or
c right 455a on one air conditioning and heating
454b r32 think of the changes for the contractor
on the truck for the wholesaler on inventory
it just makes again how do we make people's life
much easier as they get to the job site yeah
so two things here one that i'll point out a
lot of these sensors look alike But this one
actually is powered by 24 volts. Constant then.
And it's a Modbus sensor. Yeah. It's fully communicating.
So it will only work with System 550. It requires
a 24 -volt sensor. Supply. And it requires a
Modbus communicating sensor. Nice. There are
sensors that are out there that are a combination
of Modbus and relay outputs. But the ones that
use relay outputs, they work fine. but they don't
have all the smarts that we're talking about
here and i worry about those having excessive
load uh you know i like a sensor to be a sensor
yeah so the other thing bill talked about just
to kind of tee off of that is yes i mean now
we've got five different sensors one that's calibrated
for each a2l refrigerant two on the hpc side
three on the commercial refrigeration side right
in the future what you'll find is there'll be
a dual refrigerant on the HVAC side. So we'll
have to take some compromises in terms of what
the LFL level and what the trip point is. So
on the HVAC side, you'll see one sensor for R32
and R454B. But again, you will have probably
a lower LFL trip point because those two refrigerants
their properties are much different. And the
refrigeration side of things. So you take worst
case and go with that for your base. Yeah. And
on the commercial refrigeration side, there'll
be, as Bill said, there'll be three refrigerants
starting with R454A, then R454C, and then R455A.
So again, we will calibrate to what we call a
lead refrigerant and that will set the LFL. trip
point makes sense yeah interesting discussions
too with propane and i've spent a lot of time
talking to customers who are saying hey we'd
like this type of setup if if our industry in
north america decides we're going to go with
bigger charges yeah than the 500 grams we have
today right on self -contained they're doing
that in other parts of the world can you bring
this kind of capability for propane? It's perfect
for that. Yeah. What we're saying is as the industry
evolves, right, not just propane but other refrigerants,
then those are opportunities we'll take advantage
of to have a solution for the customers out there.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the same sensors because
it's really the technology. can be used for r290
reprogrammed for different lfls they can be used
for co2 as well yeah for sure and that's the
thing is you know having this flexibility of
you know being prepared for whatever is next
um you know our our president you know howard
weiss he always says we don't know what the next
refrigerant is it might be milk if it is we're
just going to educate an industry on how to work
with milk and having a modular design gives us
that flexibility of whatever comes next we have
Minimal transition for that technician. And you're
right. What's the easy button for them? Is it
a matter of replacing a sensor and doing a little
programming as we make a refrigerant change?
Sounds like a pretty easy solution to me. I mean,
we all would like some stability for the next
few years as we get everybody trained up in understanding
the application. So hopefully we're not going
to have too many changes in the foreseeable future
here. Sure. Yeah, this will get us through that.
in that process all right and so are these available
directly from johnson controls or the local distributor
what is the process so um we have actually introduced
we've discontinued one of the families that started
the modular control system system 350 and so
we we actually have another version of system
550 that has one sensor input Doesn't have A2L
leak detection mitigation. Okay. And we've completed
the firmware for that product. That is now available
for purchase. We're in production now, and that's
called our C550A control modules. Okay. So what
you see here is a C550C. Yep. The A's are kind
of more simplistic controls. Standalone. System
350, or to replace the old analog controls. What's
unique about them is that... They have a guided
setup. Oh, OK. So similar to you replacing like
a spark plug in your car where you go in and
say, OK, I've got this make and model. Here's
my cross reference. You just basically go into
the dial. You dial what your previous was replacing
and it will walk you through everything you need
to do to configure that device. You go through,
you configure that and then you're done. We're
now. releasing firmware version 1 .2. Once that
is in production then we will allow product to
flow not only to our OEM customers but also our
network of authorized wholesalers. So that's
coming up at the end of August beginning of September.
you know one of the things that you'd mentioned
was the the the cloud availability for monitoring
are there any programs or services that are available
for doing the remote monitoring if i don't have
an existing building management system that i
might be tying into um well this would allow
you to do that okay um and using the same you
know safety or security protocol that a banking
system would use oh wow so double encryption
uh type of of technology um we use it in our
easy eye controllers yeah yeah like that's where
it trickled down oh sure it trickled down from
our easy io we're using the same chipset but
with extended memory in the system 550. that
makes sense now yeah so with with a with a license
that you buy through a subscription yeah and
you can buy either one license you can buy 25
licenses you can buy 50 you can buy 100 the more
licenses you purchase at one time the lower the
annual cost of that subscription yeah i bet very
good so you can do that today through by purchasing
a license okay a lot of solutions in a small
package absolutely yeah simplicity with capability
i mean that's the real key it's giving you all
the capability you need but not having someone
sit there for an hour frustrated at how to set
it up it's easy it walks you through it right
you can get it done you've got the capability
and the value you get in this compared to brand
new control systems and everything else is absolutely
tremendous. I can see that. I think it's going
to be the name of this episode. Simplicity or
capability. I like that a lot. Gentlemen, thank
you so much for joining us today. We're really
curious to learn more about the products as we
make these transitions and evolutions. Where
can the audience learn more about Johnson Controls
and the solutions that are provided by Johnson
Controls? Yeah, probably the best place to go
is to the Penn Controls website. And that's PennControls
.com. You'll see a whole section on System 550
and anything else we offer under the Penn brand
name. Very good. All right. So everyone check
it out. Learn a little bit more about our A2L
transition and the solutions that are available
to you. Thank you, gentlemen.