WEBVTT 00:00:05.389 --> 00:00:08.369 This episode brought to you by Danfoss, engineering 00:00:08.369 --> 00:00:10.710 solutions that increase productivity, reduce 00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:13.490 emissions, lower energy consumption, and enable 00:00:13.490 --> 00:00:17.609 electrification. Learn more at danfoss .com. 00:00:19.289 --> 00:00:21.109 Well, hello, everyone. Thank you so much for 00:00:21.109 --> 00:00:23.769 joining us once again on Did You Know, the ESCO 00:00:23.769 --> 00:00:27.329 HVAC podcast. So today we're spending some time 00:00:27.329 --> 00:00:30.230 with Dean Groff, Sales and Service Manager, Danfoss. 00:00:30.230 --> 00:00:32.630 How are you, sir? Doing fantastic, Clifton. How 00:00:32.630 --> 00:00:35.609 are you? I'm doing great. I'm very excited about 00:00:35.609 --> 00:00:37.890 our industry. I know it's a transitional time 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:40.630 and a lot of people are struggling with changes 00:00:40.630 --> 00:00:43.969 and transitions and regulations, but I actually 00:00:43.969 --> 00:00:46.649 find it fascinating. As a refrigeration technician, 00:00:46.969 --> 00:00:50.570 I really spent most of my time in that CFC to 00:00:50.570 --> 00:00:54.490 HCFC transition into HFCs and spent a little 00:00:54.490 --> 00:00:58.450 bit of time with A3s, primarily like R290. So 00:00:58.450 --> 00:01:00.670 I came out of the field about seven years ago 00:01:00.670 --> 00:01:03.210 as a commercial refrigeration technician. And 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:06.349 things like CO2 were just starting to hit the 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:09.629 market in new construction. And many of our educators, 00:01:09.730 --> 00:01:12.069 like myself, have came out of the field, probably 00:01:12.069 --> 00:01:14.709 been out for a few years, and may not be comfortable 00:01:14.709 --> 00:01:18.269 with CO2. But it really is like the emerging 00:01:18.269 --> 00:01:20.269 refrigerant in our industry, wouldn't you say? 00:01:20.849 --> 00:01:22.989 Yeah, yeah, I would think. I mean, at this point, 00:01:23.010 --> 00:01:24.890 from what I'm seeing, especially in the food 00:01:24.890 --> 00:01:27.129 retail side of the world, yeah, overwhelmingly, 00:01:27.250 --> 00:01:29.709 all of your big players, or at least new stores, 00:01:29.849 --> 00:01:33.989 are going CO2. On retrofits, there are some fluctuations 00:01:33.989 --> 00:01:36.290 out there on what direction it's heading, but 00:01:36.290 --> 00:01:39.150 predominantly, you're seeing CO2 more and more. 00:01:39.629 --> 00:01:42.010 Okay, and now, are we seeing many challenges, 00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:44.469 especially in that food retail industry, as we're 00:01:44.469 --> 00:01:47.810 moving into these ultra -low GWP refrigerants 00:01:47.810 --> 00:01:51.540 like CO2? Yeah, if you look at CO2, I think there 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:53.500 were some challenges here, especially in North 00:01:53.500 --> 00:01:56.760 America, where there just wasn't a strong knowledge 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.700 base on the technician side of it. on how CO2 00:01:59.700 --> 00:02:01.780 operates, especially when it goes transcritical 00:02:01.780 --> 00:02:03.760 and all the things that you have to think through 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:07.000 on that. And also at the same time, you're introducing 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.719 a lot more controls into the system. They're 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.139 controls that they never dealt with before. I 00:02:12.139 --> 00:02:14.759 like to think about it as going from a carbureted 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.280 engine to a fuel injected engine, right? Exactly. 00:02:18.020 --> 00:02:20.120 I tell technicians when I'm talking to them, 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:21.539 if you're not bringing a computer to the job 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:22.939 site, you're not going to be able to work on 00:02:22.939 --> 00:02:25.560 this stuff. Yeah. It's just the reality of where 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:27.800 we're at. Yeah. And it's important for us to 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.400 understand that and help prepare our students 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.539 for these technologies. You know, many of our 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:34.699 educators, especially ones that, you know, may 00:02:34.699 --> 00:02:36.960 have been out of the field for a while, might 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.300 not have been at that place in the industry where 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:42.180 they were using digital tools as part of their 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:46.099 daily work. But even seven years ago, you know, 00:02:46.099 --> 00:02:49.900 I had an iPad in my tool bag. I had my hand tools 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:53.000 and the back pouch was the padded zippered spot 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.120 for my iPad. And everything that I worked on, 00:02:56.219 --> 00:02:58.960 I pulled up. I was using things like Site Manager 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:01.860 and UltraSight where I could be off -site and 00:03:01.860 --> 00:03:04.400 look at my own pieces of equipment. And so it 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.860 really is a very important part of today's HVACR 00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:11.500 technician. And incorporating that into the classroom 00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:15.150 could be a... difficult thing if you're not comfortable 00:03:15.150 --> 00:03:16.889 with it but you know we're here to let you know 00:03:16.889 --> 00:03:21.050 that you have resources you have absolutely there 00:03:21.050 --> 00:03:23.750 are a ton of resources out there i mean if you 00:03:23.750 --> 00:03:26.650 look at the agency you'll get nsarc and what 00:03:26.650 --> 00:03:28.330 they're doing with their training summits and 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:30.289 getting out there i mean they're they're focused 00:03:30.289 --> 00:03:33.250 on not only the theory of co2 yeah but also how 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:34.870 do you launch it how do you implement it how 00:03:34.870 --> 00:03:36.789 do you get it to work and and it's important 00:03:36.789 --> 00:03:39.909 that all the players from the the commissioning 00:03:39.909 --> 00:03:42.090 engineering and techs out there to the sustaining 00:03:42.090 --> 00:03:44.090 engineers that they understand what they're doing 00:03:44.090 --> 00:03:46.409 what each one of these components do in the system 00:03:46.409 --> 00:03:50.310 because it doesn't take much in a co2 world to 00:03:50.310 --> 00:03:52.490 blow a charge right i mean the tolerances are 00:03:52.490 --> 00:03:55.719 just so small there Exactly. I'm glad you brought 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:59.780 up NASRC. We're actually doing a co -release 00:03:59.780 --> 00:04:03.159 of an introduction to CO2 training for the classroom, 00:04:03.259 --> 00:04:06.139 particularly for educators to get comfortable 00:04:06.139 --> 00:04:08.240 with this curriculum, really an introduction 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.460 into it. Because there are some things that are 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:13.419 different, but there's a lot of benefits. Can 00:04:13.419 --> 00:04:16.920 you talk us through some of the benefits of going 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:19.839 to CO2 over some of our traditional refrigerants, 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:23.089 say like 404s? Well, first of all, you've got 00:04:23.089 --> 00:04:25.990 the GWP, right? So you're doing good things for 00:04:25.990 --> 00:04:28.029 the environment there. And quite frankly, at 00:04:28.029 --> 00:04:29.689 this point, you're going to have to change to 00:04:29.689 --> 00:04:32.350 something anyway, right? At some point, you're 00:04:32.350 --> 00:04:34.269 going to have to do something with your refrigeration, 00:04:34.290 --> 00:04:36.490 whether you go to CO2 or you go to an HFO or 00:04:36.490 --> 00:04:38.410 whatever. I think that's a decision that each 00:04:38.410 --> 00:04:40.649 independent end user needs to make, right, on 00:04:40.649 --> 00:04:43.750 what's best for them. But if you look at CO2, 00:04:43.870 --> 00:04:46.949 it pretty much future -proofs you, right? I mean, 00:04:46.990 --> 00:04:50.959 the GWP is non -existent. if you once you learn 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:52.540 it and you get it to work and you already changed 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:54.759 over there you're done you don't have to do any 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:57.060 more for the life of that equipment um i think 00:04:57.060 --> 00:04:59.019 if you look at some of the other refrigerants 00:04:59.019 --> 00:05:01.959 out there there is some risk you know right and 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:03.759 not not that there's not risk with co2 you've 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.939 got the implementation risk right what do you 00:05:05.939 --> 00:05:08.319 do with transcritical and the pressures and things 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:10.459 like that you've got to think through but then 00:05:10.459 --> 00:05:12.399 with some of the other solutions you've got risks 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.379 on what's going to happen with the pfafs right 00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:18.730 That's a little bit unknown right now. It really 00:05:18.730 --> 00:05:23.089 is. I think if you talk to all of the end users 00:05:23.089 --> 00:05:26.170 and educate them, and it's up to them. What's 00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:27.629 the best solution for them? I don't think it's 00:05:27.629 --> 00:05:31.009 a one -size -fits -all solution. No, you're right. 00:05:31.089 --> 00:05:32.910 And I think that's important for us to discuss. 00:05:33.069 --> 00:05:35.589 If I'm a business owner or if I'm a property 00:05:35.589 --> 00:05:38.930 manager and I'm looking at what those solutions 00:05:38.930 --> 00:05:41.230 are, a lot of times it comes down to initial 00:05:41.230 --> 00:05:43.790 cost and investment. But like you said, there 00:05:43.790 --> 00:05:46.089 are a lot of factors we have to look at. Most 00:05:46.089 --> 00:05:48.910 of our existing stores, if they're going to be 00:05:48.910 --> 00:05:51.029 looking at that potential retrofit, they're probably 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:54.709 working with an HFC refrigerant now. High volumes 00:05:54.709 --> 00:05:57.670 of HFC refrigerants. Most of my stores would 00:05:57.670 --> 00:06:00.930 have... around 2 ,000 pounds to 2 ,500 pounds 00:06:00.930 --> 00:06:03.649 of refrigerant in all the combinations of the 00:06:03.649 --> 00:06:06.949 different medium temp and low temp racks and 00:06:06.949 --> 00:06:09.509 air conditioning. So as we start looking at those 00:06:09.509 --> 00:06:12.149 large quantities of refrigerant, those HFCs are 00:06:12.149 --> 00:06:15.930 getting very expensive and are going to go through 00:06:15.930 --> 00:06:18.730 a short supply. Yeah, I mean, that's the intention 00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:21.370 of the AMAC, right? Part of that is reducing 00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:24.769 the supply. And if you take what we learned in 00:06:24.769 --> 00:06:26.750 Europe, you reduce the supply and you can get 00:06:26.750 --> 00:06:29.699 some. Very large impacts on the price of refrigerant 00:06:29.699 --> 00:06:33.339 doubling within a matter of weeks. And it will 00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:35.300 get to some point where you just can't afford 00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:39.040 to refill your system. Yeah, absolutely. You 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:40.860 know, one of the topics that you brought up is 00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:44.560 one that is it's I wouldn't say it's a controversial 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.860 topic. It's one that we need good. education 00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:51.899 on, quality education on what PFAS is and what 00:06:51.899 --> 00:06:53.720 some of our alternative refrigerant solutions 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.139 are. Because when we look at refrigerants, there 00:06:56.139 --> 00:06:59.000 is no perfect solution, right? Our perfect solution 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.000 is H2O. We're just probably not going to get 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.519 there anytime in the near future. So when we 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.339 look at refrigerants, whether you go with a natural, 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:10.120 like a CO2 that may have higher operating pressures, 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.120 well, if you look at some of the others, like 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:16.160 our HFOs, Some are newer refrigerants. Some are 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:18.379 actually older refrigerants that we haven't used. 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.100 You'll take things like R1234YF. When you look 00:07:22.100 --> 00:07:25.139 at things like that's tetrafluoropropene, it 00:07:25.139 --> 00:07:28.500 was actually patented in 1960, right? It's a 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:30.240 chemical that's been around for a long time. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.399 It just didn't really find its right fit until 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:35.560 recently when we started relooking at some of 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:38.839 these lower GWP refrigerants that are mildly 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.279 flammable. And so many times we have to weigh. 00:07:43.209 --> 00:07:46.209 what those options are as a business owner versus 00:07:46.209 --> 00:07:50.649 a you know just a single single refrigerant solution 00:07:50.649 --> 00:07:54.310 because some of these hfos are mildly flammable 00:07:54.310 --> 00:07:56.649 which could throw in a whole different perspective 00:07:56.649 --> 00:07:58.610 when we're looking at refrigerant management 00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:02.579 Yeah, I mean, you just look at the 2 -89, right, 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.959 that you've got to comply to with any A2L. You 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:07.620 know, the three pillars of that. You've got to 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:09.680 find a leak, detect it in a certain amount of 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:11.560 time. You've got to react to that and isolate 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:13.759 it. Then you've got to mitigate it with something. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:16.899 How you implement that is, I mean, there's different 00:08:16.899 --> 00:08:19.139 strategies out there, but it's a risk and it's 00:08:19.139 --> 00:08:21.420 more controls, right? And you're back to the 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:24.439 control aspect of it. Even when you look at the 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:25.939 air conditioning systems that are going to be 00:08:25.939 --> 00:08:28.579 on the roof, more controls in those same issue, 00:08:28.699 --> 00:08:33.200 they're A2Ls. Yeah. When we think about these 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.460 things that we need to know, we talk about mitigation. 00:08:36.740 --> 00:08:40.980 Some business owners may be familiar with systems 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:42.940 like this we've used in the past. If you take 00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:46.480 an earlier generation grocery store that had 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.340 a compressor rack room where all of the compressors 00:08:49.340 --> 00:08:53.259 were in one room, it had louvers on the exterior 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:56.919 wall and exhaust fans on the ceiling, and we 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:59.299 had refrigerant leak detection in that room. 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:01.860 The whole principle was if we had a large refrigerant 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:04.440 leak, we could actually open up fresh air from 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:06.379 the outside and vent that refrigerant outdoors. 00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:09.820 Yep. That works well in that installation. But 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:11.620 when we start looking at the rest of the components 00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:14.220 within the rest of the structure, that was never 00:09:14.220 --> 00:09:17.340 accounted for in our earlier generations. So 00:09:17.340 --> 00:09:20.679 if we look at things like mildly flammable, are 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.039 you seeing a significant investment in these 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:27.080 mitigation systems that would be used for, say, 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.950 an A2L complete system? Yeah, I've seen a lot 00:09:30.950 --> 00:09:32.769 of discussions around it. I have not physically 00:09:32.769 --> 00:09:34.950 seen one implemented in a store yet, but yeah, 00:09:35.009 --> 00:09:37.490 there's investments being made on the control 00:09:37.490 --> 00:09:40.169 logic and also the line components that go into 00:09:40.169 --> 00:09:42.950 all of that, the isolation and the mitigation 00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:46.039 portion of it. Yeah. And there's a lot to understanding 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.139 that. That's the reason we try to have our manufacturers 00:09:48.139 --> 00:09:50.500 come on the show and discuss things so that we're 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:53.419 not getting secondhand, thirdhand, fourthhand 00:09:53.419 --> 00:09:57.659 information. And as an audience, you can tell 00:09:57.659 --> 00:10:00.740 that a lot of these are new strategies that we 00:10:00.740 --> 00:10:03.299 are facing. And so we're really just now starting 00:10:03.299 --> 00:10:06.080 to implement a lot of these A2L mitigation strategies, 00:10:06.340 --> 00:10:11.000 which is why CO2, I believe, is such a good solution 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.309 because it reduces a lot of that. when we start 00:10:14.309 --> 00:10:16.070 looking at the replacements of refrigerants, 00:10:16.090 --> 00:10:19.090 the regulations behind CO2 are very different 00:10:19.090 --> 00:10:21.409 than other refrigerants. Is that anything that 00:10:21.409 --> 00:10:26.409 you can speak to? As far as the reclamation? 00:10:27.789 --> 00:10:30.129 Yeah. I mean, for one thing, you could vent it. 00:10:30.509 --> 00:10:33.750 Exactly. So I don't know whether that's necessarily 00:10:33.750 --> 00:10:36.830 an advantage. There's a lot of discussions right 00:10:36.830 --> 00:10:39.590 now on what sort of bar do you actually design 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:43.210 a system for? Sure. Because even though CO2 is... 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.580 You can vent it legally, right? Is that something 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:49.000 you want to do? Because you do have a limited 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:51.799 supply of stuff and it costs money. So do you 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.759 design the system to go up to 120 bar? Do you 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.720 design it something lower and mitigate your risk 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.519 as far as a blow off of refrigerant, right? How 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.100 long can I go without electricity if that should 00:11:04.100 --> 00:11:07.159 happen before I lose a charge, right? And all 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:10.480 those things are under discussion on where ultimately 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:14.710 we'll end in designs here in the US. Yeah, which 00:11:14.710 --> 00:11:16.509 gives us a lot of options and depends on the 00:11:16.509 --> 00:11:19.169 region that the structure is in as well. There 00:11:19.169 --> 00:11:22.169 are situations where you may end up having a 00:11:22.169 --> 00:11:24.590 cascaded style system where you're using CO2 00:11:24.590 --> 00:11:27.649 within the store, but they're using a different 00:11:27.649 --> 00:11:30.830 refrigeration system with an HFO or potentially 00:11:30.830 --> 00:11:33.870 an HFC to move that heat from the CO2 to outdoors. 00:11:34.149 --> 00:11:36.730 Are you seeing very many of those systems being 00:11:36.730 --> 00:11:41.409 designed? Some. Yeah, some of them. I've seen 00:11:41.409 --> 00:11:43.090 more of that probably in the retrofit than the 00:11:43.090 --> 00:11:45.250 new store. New store predominantly you're seeing 00:11:45.250 --> 00:11:48.070 either straight CO2 or if they're a smaller footprint 00:11:48.070 --> 00:11:49.750 store, you've also seen the micro distributed 00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:52.509 systems that use either, you know, like propane 00:11:52.509 --> 00:11:56.049 or, you know, HFC, which is another option that's 00:11:56.049 --> 00:11:59.649 out there. Tell me about that system. It's smaller, 00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:01.769 self -contained, either air cooled condensers 00:12:01.769 --> 00:12:04.659 or water cooled condensers. So when we talk about 00:12:04.659 --> 00:12:07.019 CO2, we're primarily talking about the entire 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:10.600 store. What applications are we using CO2 for? 00:12:10.659 --> 00:12:13.000 Is it a medium temp only application? Is it a 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.399 low temp application? Can those systems be combination? 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.100 Yeah, so they can be combination. They're both 00:12:18.100 --> 00:12:21.480 medium and low temperature. The other thing that 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:24.480 you can do with CO2 is you can recover the heat, 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.159 right? So you can do things with that heat recovery 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:29.799 because you've got a higher temperature there 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:32.139 on the discharge. There's a lot of energy that 00:12:32.139 --> 00:12:34.019 you can make use of that we typically just blow 00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:37.289 off in the air, right? Yeah, it's kind of crazy 00:12:37.289 --> 00:12:39.950 to think about the amount of heat that we actually 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:42.149 just release back into the atmosphere instead 00:12:42.149 --> 00:12:44.750 of utilizing. I remember as a young technician, 00:12:44.929 --> 00:12:48.769 I worked in an older IGA. Here in the Midwest, 00:12:48.870 --> 00:12:51.269 we have a lot of IGAs that were built in the 00:12:51.269 --> 00:12:54.330 1970s, 80s, and in the 90s. And in this particular 00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:56.490 one, it was my first introduction into a heat 00:12:56.490 --> 00:12:58.470 recovery off from the refrigeration system. And 00:12:58.470 --> 00:13:02.129 it was a direct heat recovery off from the discharge 00:13:02.129 --> 00:13:04.830 of the compressors in the rack room that came 00:13:04.830 --> 00:13:08.009 back. for domestic hot water heating, as well 00:13:08.009 --> 00:13:09.529 as heating within the building. And I thought, 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:11.129 well, that's a brilliant idea. Why doesn't every 00:13:11.129 --> 00:13:13.330 building start utilizing technology like that? 00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:16.370 And so with CO2, I think we have that ability 00:13:16.370 --> 00:13:19.409 to start focusing on that more and using that 00:13:19.409 --> 00:13:21.570 energy instead of just releasing it into the 00:13:21.570 --> 00:13:25.789 atmosphere. Absolutely. Danfoss has a store that 00:13:25.789 --> 00:13:28.129 we have operating on our campus in Denmark that 00:13:28.129 --> 00:13:31.210 is a carbon neutral store. And it's all about 00:13:31.210 --> 00:13:34.269 managing your energy, right? It's taking that 00:13:34.269 --> 00:13:36.269 energy, using it where you need it and not just 00:13:36.269 --> 00:13:38.809 throwing it away. Yeah, exactly. Because it's 00:13:38.809 --> 00:13:41.090 a significant amount of heat and the energy that's 00:13:41.090 --> 00:13:43.509 used to just move that heat. And then in many 00:13:43.509 --> 00:13:46.269 times, firing up gas -fired appliances to be 00:13:46.269 --> 00:13:48.409 able to put the heat back into the structure. 00:13:48.529 --> 00:13:52.690 So really, it seems to be a waste of energy if 00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:55.090 we're not utilizing it properly. Yep. And you're 00:13:55.090 --> 00:13:56.850 seeing more and more of that here in North America. 00:13:56.950 --> 00:13:59.590 So taking advantage of that extra heat recovery 00:13:59.590 --> 00:14:03.399 where you can, right? Yeah, I've talked to many 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.179 of our chiller manufacturers that just came back 00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:08.419 from the Johnson Controls Advanced Development 00:14:08.419 --> 00:14:11.120 Engineering Center, where we're looking at heat 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.519 pump chillers that are focusing on this because 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:15.139 we're finally as an industry starting to look 00:14:15.139 --> 00:14:17.320 at, well, where do we need to put the heat? Because 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:19.259 the beauty of using a refrigeration circuit is 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:21.080 that we can move it. You know, we're not creating, 00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:24.399 we're moving heat. And so the applications become 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.200 endless because what if I had a grocery store 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.080 that is next to an apartment building and I'm 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.730 in. the northern states. Well, I can pull all 00:14:34.730 --> 00:14:37.730 of the heat off from my products and I could 00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:42.090 even put it into a system where I'm actually 00:14:42.090 --> 00:14:44.909 using it as a utility that I can get back to 00:14:44.909 --> 00:14:48.230 other buildings, other facilities and repurpose 00:14:48.230 --> 00:14:51.210 that heat instead of constantly generating and 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:52.970 releasing and generating and releasing. We can 00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:56.230 now actually think about moving heat in a broader 00:14:56.230 --> 00:14:58.850 perspective. Yeah. And then it goes back to using 00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:01.460 the energy that you have wisely, right? And not 00:15:01.460 --> 00:15:04.159 just throwing it away. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.059 So as we start looking at grocery stores going 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:10.379 forward, there's a lot that's going to be required 00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:13.440 for training, not just of the building owners, 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:16.659 but as the engineers, the designers and technicians. 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:22.039 What are you starting to see at Danfoss in training 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:26.889 for CO2? So we started out early on, and I think 00:15:26.889 --> 00:15:29.389 the industry is doing a big lift here, right? 00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:31.669 And all of your component manufacturers and the 00:15:31.669 --> 00:15:34.690 OEMs are all supporting this and is trying to 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:37.970 train just the basics of CO2, right? What happens 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:40.529 subcritical? What happens transcritical? And 00:15:40.529 --> 00:15:42.669 I think we're well down the road on that. And 00:15:42.669 --> 00:15:44.669 you've got, like I said, NSARC that are supporting 00:15:44.669 --> 00:15:47.090 this and other agencies, right, to try to get 00:15:47.090 --> 00:15:48.789 that basic training out there. And I think we're 00:15:48.789 --> 00:15:51.139 at a point now where there's a... pretty good 00:15:51.139 --> 00:15:53.159 solid understanding you know there's still the 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.460 rural areas right that that don't have this training 00:15:55.460 --> 00:15:57.299 we need to get out there but you've got a good 00:15:57.299 --> 00:16:00.120 understanding right now of the theory of co2 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.220 right so now you're looking at the control logic 00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:04.980 and what happens and how do you actually run 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:07.720 the system i was on a phone call the other day 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.139 and there was a fire marshal they wanted to do 00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:12.320 a test for the fire alarms we'll just shut it 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.409 down And then fire it back up here in a little 00:16:14.409 --> 00:16:17.409 bit. No, we don't want to do that. We need to 00:16:17.409 --> 00:16:21.990 rethink this. Not that simple. But, you know, 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:24.429 getting that fundamental understanding of what 00:16:24.429 --> 00:16:26.529 you don't do and what you do do and how that 00:16:26.529 --> 00:16:29.190 logic happens when a system shuts down and how 00:16:29.190 --> 00:16:33.509 you start a backup and those methodologies. And 00:16:33.509 --> 00:16:36.529 where can people learn more about training that 00:16:36.529 --> 00:16:38.830 Danfoss offers, especially when it comes related 00:16:38.830 --> 00:16:42.460 to CO2 products? We've got a training page just 00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:46.539 dedicated for CO2 on its own. I'd have to look 00:16:46.539 --> 00:16:48.600 up the address. I'll email that to you. But if 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.779 you just Google Dan Foss CO2 training, there 00:16:50.779 --> 00:16:54.639 are probably 4 ,000 plus hours of training out 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:57.139 there. on different concepts, different controls, 00:16:57.299 --> 00:17:00.639 different systems, everything from basic operation 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.899 to advanced controls. And then we also have our 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:05.559 own training where we'll train you on controls. 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:08.460 And we also have a mobile training unit that 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:09.700 we're getting ready to launch and take around 00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:14.980 the US. It's designed to be representative of 00:17:14.980 --> 00:17:18.319 an actual rack. So when the technicians get there, 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.160 they're going to be looking at it. The controls 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.099 will be there. It's got the compressor sets there. 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.259 It's got the gas cooler there. And you're able 00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:28.700 to open and shut louvers to adjust the load where 00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:31.220 you're seeing the compressors ramp up. from variable 00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:33.640 speed you're seeing the ejectors as this has 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.200 got an ejector system on a kick in and that's 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.059 where you're starting to see the technicians 00:17:38.059 --> 00:17:40.559 or at least where i've used it it starts to click 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.440 from theory to application right and then you 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:45.779 you see the light bulb go off like now i understand 00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:48.900 what's happening exactly um and there are a lot 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:50.700 of companies out there that have these type of 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:53.720 systems that are training not just danfoss Well, 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:55.859 we sure appreciate the commitment that Dan Foss 00:17:55.859 --> 00:17:58.759 has to education and industry. I encourage everyone 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.660 to go to danfoss .com, learn a little bit more 00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:03.839 about what's happening with Dan Foss and do some 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:05.759 searching for the CO2 training. We'll put links 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.819 to that into the description of the video. And 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:11.880 Dean, I sure appreciate you joining us and hope 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:13.779 to dive a little bit deeper into these conversations 00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:16.099 in the future. I hope so, too. And I think if 00:18:16.099 --> 00:18:18.240 there's one thing that I could leave with the 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:20.779 technicians out there is learn CO2. It's coming. 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:23.230 It's not going to go away. Learn it. And you're 00:18:23.230 --> 00:18:25.450 going to be set for a long time. I completely 00:18:25.450 --> 00:18:27.150 agree. Well, thank you very much for joining 00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:28.769 us. Thank you, sir. Have a good day.