All right, everyone. Thank you so much for joining
us once again on Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC
Podcast. So we're spending some time again with
Rob Larson. Rob, how are you? Good. How are you?
I'm doing great. You know, we just had an episode
not too long ago that we did at the... HVAC Excellence
National HVACR Education Conference. But there's
so many other topics that we can talk about.
I'm actually broadcasting today from SkillsUSA
competition down here in Atlanta, Georgia. We're
working with technicians to understand new technologies
and ways that we can be more efficient at the
work that we do. One of the things that gets
overlooked in our industry way too often is the
proper commissioning of systems. And it's interesting
that when you work on the water side and you're
in the boiler side, there's commissioning requirements
for every installation. But in HVAC, we're not
really there yet, but we can be and we should
be. So, Rob, let's talk a little bit about like
your training programs and talk about commissioning
and some proper practices. Okay, so. the most
like you said commissioning is is the top thing
that manufacturers are pounding us for when it
comes to training yeah they most manufacturers
are putting in their literature at the end of
the book just it's literally two pages two pages
easy to fill out most of the information is just
to customers information and a model and serial
number right so that's kind of what they're looking
for you to record some measurements so the passion
i have with commissioning, it gets pretty deep.
I don't know how, but I just, whenever I talk
about a customer and I do most of what I do is
tech support for, for an HVAC distributor, general
appliance plant. So when a customer comes in
and he purchased a furnace coil condenser from
us, I have an opportunity to see this equipment
go out our door, you know, and when I see that
equipment leave, it's brand new equipment. it's
all in a box pretty much not bothering anybody
just sitting there waiting to be brought to life
right percent so it goes out the door these guys
install it and you know once they're done they
usually turn it on and they run away and they
don't do the proper commissioning then then i'll
get the call a week later and they'll tell me
all about how it worked great when they started
it up and i don't well how great was it running
like give me some measurements so i can have
a relationship to what you started with and where
we are today. Because today the compressor is
not running. Okay. But the airflow was good and
the refrigerant pressures were good and the voltage
was good. It should be a good running system.
Yeah, pretty much. Get that all the time, don't
we? So, you know, enough of that happens where
you just get kind of, I got to come up with a
different way because they're not listening,
Clint. They don't listen. i say hey fill out
the commissioning sheet and no matter how many
times i've said that and explained to him how
important it is it there's no connection there
so i think i came up with a connection and i'm
i probably started as myself being a parent of
three children i started thinking about how do
i really get emotionally attached to these guys
how do i bring them in to make them feel more
emotional about what they do because what they
do is so important So I came up with on the fly.
I was in a dealer meeting with all the owners
of companies and they said, hey, we're going
to give you 15 minutes to talk to these dealers.
What am I going to talk about for 15 minutes?
They're going to have a long lasting impact.
Yeah. On these owners of HVAC companies. So I
started off by asking them, how many guys are
parents? And, you know, everybody's raising their
hand. I raised my hand. I said, all right, let
me ask you a question. Your wife's delivering
your child. The doctor delivers the baby, puts
the baby on a table, doesn't check anything.
Has no checklist, doesn't check temperature,
see if it's breathing, the lungs capacity, the
blood pressure, temperature, whatever. Doesn't,
and tells you as a parent, hey, this, you know,
they can survive two days, two weeks, two months,
two years. We don't know. We just delivered your
baby. We're going to leave now. So I'm like.
you know that caught their attention and they're
like wait a minute why would i go to a doctor
that does that well you want it so when you're
doing this when you're taking my furnace coil
condenser out of my inventory and you're connecting
electricity to it you're connecting flu pipe
refrigeration all right thermostat controls you're
doing all this stuff when you turn that on you're
bringing mechanical life into the world that's
the way i feel about it that's a really big perspective
you know so you're bringing mechanical life into
the world take pride take the measurements they're
easy like you said take static pressure it's
not hard the more you do it the faster you're
going to be at doing it and the tools are out
there they make it easy for you to take all the
measurements and they actually do the homework
for you it doesn't matter if you know when you
first start out doing commissioning don't get
hung up on what the measurements mean You'll
figure that part out. What I need you to understand
is where to take the measurements. And when you
learn where to take the measurements and fill
out the form and you start reading the forms
after the fourth or fifth job you've commissioned,
you're going to see a pattern. You're going to
say, wait a minute. These numbers look good.
These numbers look off. They're not the same
as the last guys. They kind of, you know, go
hand in hand. So, you know, these are the things
we're asking you to do. And there's a reason
for it. Right. So that's how I got their attention
in 15 minutes. to explain to them how important
it is. Because again, you do comparisons. Let's
take a newborn. We want to make sure that, you
know, when you look at a furnace, static pressure,
static pressure, you can relate to a newborn's
ability to breathe air in and out. Okay? When
we talk about temperatures, what's my heat rise?
What's my temperature? What's my TD across the
coil? Well, that's the temperature of a newborn
baby. I mean, it's got to be within a certain
range. And if it's not, it's not going to survive
long so there's a relationship between a newborn
and commissioning equipment and we use those
examples blood pressure when they check blood
pressure on a newborn that's that's our refrigerant
pressure we gotta check it right some cooling
superheat um so that's kind of where i get their
attention and and it seems you know for the most
part when i when i use that little bit of a comparison
with mechanical birth for human birth people
could relate and they understand hey wait a minute
i can't just run away i can't put my hand at
a register and say yeah it's hot air or it's
cold air it's going to be fine if you don't do
a temperature rise that furnace could be tripping
off on high temperature you know for years before
they pick up and you know realize it's not working
properly or the limit doesn't reset anymore and
now you're broken down So that's the part that
I try to bring guys in, and then we talk about
the different tools that are available to do
all this stuff. And like I said, there's a lot
of companies that offer a lot of different tools.
Yeah, because that box is not ready to run right
out of the box. It may come with some factory
presets, and it was probably tested at the manufacturer
under a certain condition, but that isn't ideal.
conditions we don't have that ever in the residential
and commercial industry particularly so once
we set that equipment into place it is our responsibility
to make sure that that thing is finely tuned
so that it can perform as rated and it will last
as designed you're right there's so many tools
that makes that job So easy and efficient. Very
different than, you know, 15, 20 years ago when
everything was done manually and we weren't as
precise with our tuning as we are today. I just
did a two -stage gas furnace with two -stage
A2L heat pump installation a couple weeks ago.
And I was using the FieldPeace kit. And I have
to say, I mean, so many props to FieldPeace.
I know there's a lot of software out there like
MeasureQuick and, you know, a variety of different
softwares. But with my FieldPeace... i was able
to connect you know all of my job links so i
was able to read all my refrigerant pressures
read my superheat my sub cooling i was able to
use my manometers to be able to look at airflow
and i was able to measure temperature rise and
i was able to take the voltage and amperage of
the outdoor unit and put in my cfm and i'm actually
calculating capacity for me as i'm installing
this and otherwise there's no way to know like
how is this system performing how many btus am
i actually transferring when this thing is running
and you're right once you actually once you do
an appropriate commissioning you've got the data
in front of you and you're going to recognize
even if you're not 100 trained and comfortable
in your commissioning the data is going to start
showing you where things are off so it's crucial
that we understand what temperatures what measurements
are we actually looking for And how do we use
the tools for doing that? And so I'm sure in
your classes, you're diving into not just the
fundamentals of commissioning, but the practices.
Can you walk us through some of our best practices?
So just to add to what you were saying about
equipment not being plug -in and play, I don't
even know what that means anymore, plug -in and
play. So there is some investment in commissioning
that people have to understand. So one of the
things in our training that we do here is we've
gotten away from just teaching people static
pressure. Right. You have a static pressure class
and you have a refrigerant class. And, you know,
we've kind of gotten away from that. So all our
classes are based on startup sheets because it's
like I was when I was in high school, grammar
school, learning algebra. It's like, when do
I need that? And it doesn't make sense to me.
So, yeah. show me where it applies show me where
it applies and i think i'll use it so we've gone
into that mentality here at our training facility
to say to guys okay you know what we're going
to teach you static pressure but we're going
to show you where it goes in the startup sheet
okay and like i said we use we we start just
like you know you're becoming a pilot you want
to learn how to fly well fly manually before
you use controls so we teach the guys how to
get those measurements as simple as possible,
whatever tools that we could find to measure
static pressure or temperature. And then as we
build on each portion of what the commissioning
sheet is requiring, we put it all together at
the end of the class. We said, okay, you learned
static pressure, you learned sub -cooling, superheat,
temperature rise. You know, we're going to put
this all together, pressures. We're going to
put it together on this sheet. We're going to
fill it out. And you know what? Maybe the first
time you do this, It would take you an hour,
maybe an hour and a half. But I promised all
the students if they just use it on every job,
they'll get it done in 15, 20 minutes, hands
down. 15, 20 minutes, tops 30 minutes, and they'll
be done. And they will know more about that system
than all the other techs that have been on that
job, whether it's a new install or a service
call. So that's what we try to apply to them.
it's not just for installs either i know we talk
about commissioning i'm actually we're actually
teaching the service guys to use this technique
to say look you're going there looking for a
problem why don't we first start with eliminating
what's not the problem right so think about it
we're looking for a problem that's that needle
in the haystack why don't we eliminate what's
not well we know it's not this piece of hay because
it's not a needle and we'll eventually trip over
the problem but if you use the commissioning
for also service and just take that 15 20 minutes
to fill out your service report with the same
information we're asking you to do commissioning
you're going to find a problem or you'll find
a problem that maybe the guys that did the install
didn't pick up on commissioning so that's kind
of where we try to address our our training well
you bring up such a good point when you're using
that reference to you know to like the health
care side of things whether it's a baby whether
it's us going to a doctor could you imagine going
to a new doctor right change doctors going to
a new general practice doctor and that doctor
brings you in for that first visit and says well
i'm assuming that every doctor that you went
to before did everything right so we're just
going to assume everything's okay And we're going
to do just a very general check of how you're
doing. And maybe we'll do some cleaning and some
basics. But I'm pretty sure that every other
doctor before you did everything right and found
everything and giving you all the right prescriptions.
It's not really practical, right? When we think
about it, we want to start with a baseline, understand
everything that has been done in the past so
that we can look at what things could potentially
need to be done going forward. So it's hard to
imagine installing a brand new system and not
doing a commissioning on it and then expecting
the service technicians that come later to assume
that everything was done properly. As a service
technician, the very first thing that we should
do, exactly like you're saying. See if things
were done right, because the things that were
done wrong are going to show themselves quickly.
Listen, we also get involved in tech support.
I call it tech therapy support. Yes. I just use,
you know, just to take the edge off the guys.
I mean, I was in it. know i was out in the field
for a long time so i know what these guys when
they call me i know what they're up against they
don't they don't call for just calling and being
lazy they call because they're stuck and when
they're stuck i try to be available to to kind
of walk them through some of the things in my
experience of being in the field so when they're
telling me they're in the attic i get it when
they're in a basement with you know a foot of
water i get it so what we're trying to do is
have the guys bring it down a notch and just
refocus themselves right so it comes a little
bit of therapy comes through tech support in
my opinion if you're it definitely does yeah
and it works because and you know what the biggest
thing is majority of the calls i get the guys
really know they know what they're doing they
understand the system they just they wind up
getting tunnel vision a little bit but right
i don't know why sometimes we become too creative
thinking about what the problem could be And
I try to explain, guys, stop. You're going down
the wrong path. You're focusing on the wrong
thing. Let's open up a little bit. And sometimes
I'll jokingly ask them if they have a shovel
with them. And they're like, what do you mean,
do I have a shovel with me? Yeah, because you're
digging a lot of rabbit holes. I need you to
throw the shovel away. And that kind of lightens
up. Ah, you guys, you're just joking around,
whatever. But no, once I get them to where it's
like, okay, let's start from the beginning. you
know and it could be as simple as starting at
the voltage you know because everybody assumes
because they see a light on we have voltage but
we don't know how much so it could be as simple
as just starting at that point and the more you
keep looking at a service call and being able
to start from a b c d and create your own checklist
or your own sequence of operation right that's
what i call it because that's what exactly everybody
does A furnace has a sequence of operation. If
you worked for my company at one time, you learned
the sequence of operation of a furnace your first
week working there and you memorized it. You
had no idea what you were memorizing, but you
knew that if R &W made, you were going to get
induced draft motor. So we instilled that simple
furnace sequence of operation in all our guys,
because if they were able to memorize that, which
they all did after a week or so. they would learn
okay so what else has a sequence of operation
so now everything else follows i mean just you
and i getting up in the morning we have our own
sequence of operation again getting out of bed
every day you know i get off get out of bed the
same side i do my routine and you know if i wrote
it down every day for 30 days it'd be the same
thing so instead i memorized it without even
thinking about it that's what we need our text
to do That's what we need our service guys to
do, our installers to do, is just get in the
habit of going through sequence of operation
and everything you work on. Because when you
do something, something else has to happen. What
happens next? If you don't know what is supposed
to happen next, how are you going to troubleshoot
it? It becomes very difficult. So we continuously
teach people the sequence of operation of everything
we can possibly get. and that's why if you'll
notice in the manuals that are produced now they
do give you a sequence of operations some of
the literature will tell you hey this is what's
supposed to happen so just take the time to read
it and um that's kind of where we're at with
it so yeah that's the beauty of a commissioning
report it is a sequence of operation for that
machine and when we follow it and we make sure
that every step along the way is doing what it's
supposed to do within the correct range when
we're done we have an operating piece of machinery
so that if we do have any problems we simply
go back to the sequence of operation again and
without that we're like i said we're digging
a bunch of rabbit holes for no reasons yeah but
it's like i said these guys for the most part
know know the field sometimes they just need
a little assistance and mental therapy rob so
so great to have great to have you with us again
where can we learn more about general plumbing
and supply and training that's offered well we
have a website generalplumbingsupply .net and
there's a trade section that talks about training
we do all that again we are a dealer based distributor
that sells Luxair equipment. We do factory training.
We do get the factory to come in or fly you out
to Oklahoma or Norman, Oklahoma, and get you
all trained up through the factory. Yeah, the
Ducted Systems Academy. Yep, yep. Listen, there's
a lot of stuff. You guys provide a ton of stuff
online, and we certainly support your program
and ASCO's efforts into getting information out
there for these. younger techs and even the older
techs like myself that you know listen you know
i'm good at adapting to new stuff but i'll tell
you you know these guys have it tough out there
there's so much technical stuff out there i you
know you're trying to program thermostats now
and using wi -fi you can't get into a blower
motor without a phone it's like what are we doing
you know it's nice to be simple you know to have
things simple at one point when it was but um
you know these these guys are in it's a different
world than we started in and uh all we can do
is continue to support them and i think that's
what we do and um you know we're here for them
so absolutely that's the name of the game is
helping everyone understand that we are here
for you so i encourage you all to learn more
about general plumbing supply and stay tuned
We'll keep giving you all that moral support
that you need to get through that sequence of
operation properly. Rob, thanks a lot for joining
us today. Hey, thanks for having me. See you
next time.