WEBVTT 00:00:04.490 --> 00:00:06.549 Well, hello, everyone. Thank you for joining 00:00:06.549 --> 00:00:10.369 us again on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast. 00:00:10.689 --> 00:00:13.589 So today we're spending some time with Mike Hirschbach 00:00:13.589 --> 00:00:15.929 from Havtech. How are you doing, sir? Doing very 00:00:15.929 --> 00:00:19.910 well. All right. So let's dive into some of our 00:00:19.910 --> 00:00:22.429 more advanced pieces of equipment in the industry. 00:00:22.530 --> 00:00:24.829 Let's talk about some like VRV, VRF style equipment, 00:00:24.890 --> 00:00:28.410 and let's help break it down. Back to the fundamentals, 00:00:28.589 --> 00:00:31.989 right? We always talk about sometimes we get 00:00:31.989 --> 00:00:35.829 carried away with technology and we don't step 00:00:35.829 --> 00:00:38.229 back and think about all those fundamentals that 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:40.590 we learned of what we're actually doing and what 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:43.070 we're working with. So where do we even begin, 00:00:43.130 --> 00:00:47.609 Mike? So one of the unique things that I have 00:00:47.609 --> 00:00:50.329 the opportunity to witness at Havtech. across 00:00:50.329 --> 00:00:54.030 our different divisions is the field and our 00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:57.210 own contractors or our mechanics as well as our 00:00:57.210 --> 00:01:00.310 mechanical contractors and what we're seeing 00:01:00.310 --> 00:01:03.109 is equipment becomes more specialized more unique 00:01:03.109 --> 00:01:07.829 we have a lot of mechanics who are rock stars 00:01:07.829 --> 00:01:10.709 on that piece of equipment and how it breaks 00:01:10.709 --> 00:01:14.049 and how to repair that and how to keep it running 00:01:14.049 --> 00:01:18.010 long term but where we're seeing the holes is 00:01:18.010 --> 00:01:21.849 the the basic HVAC portion, the portion where 00:01:21.849 --> 00:01:25.829 techs in the past had been preached from the 00:01:25.829 --> 00:01:28.230 beginning and worked their way up to service 00:01:28.230 --> 00:01:30.969 equipment. With the demand of our industry right 00:01:30.969 --> 00:01:33.730 now, we're getting specialized training very 00:01:33.730 --> 00:01:37.209 early in careers. And what we're finding is a 00:01:37.209 --> 00:01:39.829 mechanic that can work on a VRV, VRF system, 00:01:39.950 --> 00:01:42.769 if you put them on a conventional rooftop, single 00:01:42.769 --> 00:01:45.310 stage compressor. They don't want to work on 00:01:45.310 --> 00:01:48.090 it. Oh, no kidding. They don't. And it's not 00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:51.329 across the board, but it's becoming more common. 00:01:51.769 --> 00:01:56.930 So what we're trying to do as we train and as 00:01:56.930 --> 00:02:00.109 we train our own mechanics is get them to understand 00:02:00.109 --> 00:02:03.769 that, you know, you don't always, it's not always 00:02:03.769 --> 00:02:08.930 a major VRV, VRF problem. Sure. Sometimes it 00:02:08.930 --> 00:02:13.580 can be very simple. All the way from the startup 00:02:13.580 --> 00:02:18.419 process. So we're seeing equipment started where 00:02:18.419 --> 00:02:21.639 there are no registers or grills or filters in 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:24.139 the equipment. Yeah, isn't that crazy? And they're 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:26.219 setting static pressures. Yeah, all from that 00:02:26.219 --> 00:02:29.780 as a baseline, not an actual baseline. Right. 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:34.400 So the equipment is not running at proper air 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.909 flows because it wasn't started properly. we're 00:02:37.909 --> 00:02:40.030 starting equipment this is an industry -wide 00:02:40.030 --> 00:02:41.770 problem that's always been there but with high 00:02:41.770 --> 00:02:43.629 efficiency equipment and high efficiency coils 00:02:43.629 --> 00:02:45.949 we're starting equipment in dirty buildings yes 00:02:45.949 --> 00:02:49.090 they haven't been cleaned up ready to roll and 00:02:49.090 --> 00:02:52.289 then a year into it we have a coil that's concrete 00:02:52.289 --> 00:02:55.270 because of drywall dust compacted that pulled 00:02:55.270 --> 00:02:58.610 in and with the moisture so we're seeing that 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:02.449 we're we're trying to coach around that um as 00:03:02.449 --> 00:03:06.330 an industry we're also seeing some things that 00:03:06.330 --> 00:03:09.909 are standard when we're dealing with most equipment 00:03:09.909 --> 00:03:13.949 that is bypassed and not looked at in the VRV 00:03:13.949 --> 00:03:18.150 VRF world when a compressor is replaced yeah 00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:22.150 we tend with VRV and VRF equipment we go to the 00:03:22.150 --> 00:03:25.610 roof to the equipment we take all of our tools 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:28.229 up everything you know we replace a compressor 00:03:28.229 --> 00:03:33.129 we you know evacuate we recharge and then we 00:03:33.129 --> 00:03:35.050 go from the roof back to our truck we get in 00:03:35.050 --> 00:03:38.199 our truck and we go home We don't look at the 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:40.439 air filtration at all. The rest of the system, 00:03:40.539 --> 00:03:42.780 yeah. We don't make sure registers and grills 00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:44.759 are open. We're not checking airflow at the fan 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:46.699 coils because it's not right there in front of 00:03:46.699 --> 00:03:51.520 us. Yeah. So we're making sure, and one of the 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.259 big pushes that we need to make is just like 00:03:54.259 --> 00:03:56.099 a rooftop. On a rooftop, you would go to the 00:03:56.099 --> 00:03:57.879 filter section, the evaporator section. You're 00:03:57.879 --> 00:03:59.219 going to check your blower. You're going to check 00:03:59.219 --> 00:04:02.319 your filters. We need to do that on a VRV compressor 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.520 replacement, a VRF compressor replacement. So 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:11.300 those little things, we always have to, one of 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:14.900 my favorite sayings, and I've heard it many times 00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:18.839 in our industry, but ABC, airflow before charge. 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.319 And we're missing that at times. We're getting 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.379 into the, it has to be complex because it's VRV, 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:32.779 VRF. And we're bypassing sometimes the small 00:04:32.779 --> 00:04:36.980 stuff going through. One of the big ones that 00:04:36.980 --> 00:04:40.439 I see, and I get a lot of phone calls on from 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:44.279 technicians that are all over our service area, 00:04:44.540 --> 00:04:50.220 the design portion of the job. So when I started 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:51.800 in the trade, I was very lucky to have started 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:53.860 a company that I had to do everything. Oh, yeah. 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.519 One man show. Yeah. You had to know what you 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.819 were doing. You didn't have a whole lot of support 00:04:59.819 --> 00:05:04.500 from the office. one of the big things we miss 00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:09.439 is design we have to know how the the job was 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:11.939 designed so we get a lot of a lot of questions 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:15.800 where we have an end user who turns their their 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.600 thermostat has a range from 60 to 90 degrees 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:21.720 yeah so in cooling they turn it down to 60 and 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:23.939 on the 100 degree day they don't understand they're 00:05:23.939 --> 00:05:26.000 calling in a service call absolutely thinking 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:28.759 the system's not working well Yeah, it does. 00:05:30.220 --> 00:05:33.680 It's doing everything it can. And they don't 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:35.839 realize the design temperature was 75. Yeah. 00:05:35.939 --> 00:05:37.939 And it wasn't even at that 100 -degree day. It 00:05:37.939 --> 00:05:40.740 was at a 95 -degree day. Yeah. So the system's 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:43.180 achieving, overachieving what it should, the 00:05:43.180 --> 00:05:47.160 75 -degree design, but it might be 68. Well, 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:50.560 it's a service call, and it typically ends up 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:54.310 being multiple service calls. It's multiple times 00:05:54.310 --> 00:05:57.310 over the course of a few weeks. It's many truck 00:05:57.310 --> 00:06:01.189 rolls for contractors. So it's a financial loss. 00:06:01.209 --> 00:06:04.769 A lot of loss revenue. It's an unhappy customer. 00:06:05.149 --> 00:06:08.069 And a lot of these sites, if it's multifamily, 00:06:08.170 --> 00:06:12.579 it's an unhappy tenant. But it's also an unhappy 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:16.279 building manager. Who would be the one calling 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:19.079 you back in the future? The one calling you back, 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.439 the one that's telling the owner this equipment 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.060 doesn't work. We're laying all the information 00:06:23.060 --> 00:06:26.660 on up the chain. And it's the same thing in heating. 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.300 And we deal with that a lot. And because that's 00:06:30.300 --> 00:06:34.259 not a physical, I can check it with my meter. 00:06:34.379 --> 00:06:36.000 I can go through. It's not right in front of 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:41.509 me. It's not right here. It's bypassed. That 00:06:41.509 --> 00:06:44.910 is, that's a big service portion that we deal 00:06:44.910 --> 00:06:48.370 with multiple times, you know, weekly as we go 00:06:48.370 --> 00:06:51.449 through the severe heating and cooling season. 00:06:51.689 --> 00:06:55.209 Yeah. And this equipment is built that, you know, 00:06:55.250 --> 00:06:57.889 if it's mild weather, we don't have the issue 00:06:57.889 --> 00:06:59.709 because mild weather, we might actually be able 00:06:59.709 --> 00:07:01.709 to hit the 60 degrees if somebody wants it or 00:07:01.709 --> 00:07:03.629 the 90 degrees. A lot of times we're running 00:07:03.629 --> 00:07:06.509 on partial load. Yeah. And that equipment, if 00:07:06.509 --> 00:07:08.949 the fan cool is slightly oversized, sometimes 00:07:08.949 --> 00:07:13.470 magic happens. Yeah. And at that time, the end 00:07:13.470 --> 00:07:16.449 user, the tenant, will say, well, the machine's 00:07:16.449 --> 00:07:19.509 done it. And it really is. It's a part of the 00:07:19.509 --> 00:07:23.310 industry that I think we, over time, sort of 00:07:23.310 --> 00:07:26.730 separated where most technicians, their realm 00:07:26.730 --> 00:07:32.069 of responsibility. And normally, as a technician, 00:07:32.269 --> 00:07:34.910 you're not required to sort of handle the entire 00:07:34.910 --> 00:07:37.170 spectrum of what you're dealing with. They're 00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:39.410 for that repair, and that's the component you're 00:07:39.410 --> 00:07:42.800 looking at. yeah repair traditional you know 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:47.500 maintenance um and and just not a not an overall 00:07:47.500 --> 00:07:51.060 understanding of the complete system the complete 00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:53.819 system the and that's one of the things that 00:07:53.819 --> 00:07:56.339 that we work on with our service group that we 00:07:56.339 --> 00:07:59.540 when we train we're talking about is you you 00:07:59.540 --> 00:08:03.100 can't get so micro yeah that you're down to just 00:08:03.100 --> 00:08:06.560 components yeah and exactly what the system is 00:08:07.069 --> 00:08:08.850 Yeah, I've been wondering too, because I see 00:08:08.850 --> 00:08:12.310 a lot of social posts on compressor replacements 00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:15.389 on VRV, VRF systems. I'm like, man, I know I've 00:08:15.389 --> 00:08:17.050 been out of the field for a few years, but the 00:08:17.050 --> 00:08:20.649 VRV, VRF systems that I had in service, I never 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:23.370 replaced compressors on. So I keep thinking, 00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:25.329 all right, is it really that the technology is 00:08:25.329 --> 00:08:28.910 changing or has it been a lack of other items? 00:08:28.970 --> 00:08:30.709 So I'm glad we're having this conversation because 00:08:30.709 --> 00:08:33.490 when we look at it, it's hard to kill a compressor. 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:36.320 It truly is, especially when we get into technology 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.720 like VRV, VRF systems. We have so many thermistors 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.620 and transducers floating around that, you know, 00:08:42.620 --> 00:08:45.500 it's doing a lot of work to self -manage itself. 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.259 And so it goes back to that fundamental, like, 00:08:48.299 --> 00:08:51.360 why does a compressor fail? Right? There's only 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.879 a couple things that kill compressors. Airflow 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.100 and oil, right at the top of that list, and heat, 00:08:57.299 --> 00:08:59.860 right? And so if we have a compressor failure 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:02.759 on this system, yeah, you're... Are they actually 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.120 going back and looking at the system going, okay, 00:09:05.179 --> 00:09:08.399 why? Why did this happen? Can I prevent this 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:12.960 from happening again? I see weekly emails across 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:17.440 my inbox that are, we had a compressor failure 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:21.860 on this VRV or VRF system. It's two years old. 00:09:21.980 --> 00:09:24.860 Why did it fail? And that's the exact amount 00:09:24.860 --> 00:09:29.100 of information I have. Wow. And so I respond 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:31.200 with a lot of emails going, you know, there's... 00:09:31.549 --> 00:09:35.009 It would be a scientific wild -butt guess for 00:09:35.009 --> 00:09:36.509 me to be able to tell you. I don't have enough 00:09:36.509 --> 00:09:39.490 data. Yeah, there's no data there. There's nothing 00:09:39.490 --> 00:09:44.090 to analyze. A lot more contractors themselves, 00:09:44.730 --> 00:09:48.710 rep firms such as Havtech, we actually do compressor 00:09:48.710 --> 00:09:52.470 teardown. Oh, nice. So we have built the machine. 00:09:52.629 --> 00:09:55.970 I know you know Roman. Oh, yeah. We have the 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:59.009 same machine they have going through, and we 00:09:59.009 --> 00:10:02.590 do compressor teardown. Yeah. And I will tell 00:10:02.590 --> 00:10:06.690 you the funny thing with VRV, VRF is when they 00:10:06.690 --> 00:10:10.830 are tested in the field, every single one. barring 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:14.250 a few, is an electrical failure. It's grounded. 00:10:14.429 --> 00:10:16.929 But when you actually take the machine apart, 00:10:17.370 --> 00:10:21.309 you see it was an electrical, or a result of 00:10:21.309 --> 00:10:26.309 a mechanical. So we're doing a lot of that diagnostic, 00:10:26.649 --> 00:10:29.950 going through and finding what's happening, and 00:10:29.950 --> 00:10:33.889 we're finding the results of airflow is huge. 00:10:34.070 --> 00:10:37.289 It's the most significant one. Dirty filters. 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:41.029 A few years ago, we were on a job site helping 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:44.870 to get to root cause analysis. And it was a hotel. 00:10:45.350 --> 00:10:49.350 And the hotel, it was a unique design is the 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:52.190 best way to put it. They had about seven systems 00:10:52.190 --> 00:10:54.970 on the building. Six of the systems had about 00:10:54.970 --> 00:11:00.169 10 to 12 fan cools per system. One unit had 56. 00:11:00.870 --> 00:11:05.169 Really? So it was... Not sure where the... Yeah, 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:07.090 what happened here? What was the intent of the 00:11:07.090 --> 00:11:10.330 design? Yeah, whose math got off that day? But, 00:11:10.350 --> 00:11:12.610 of course, it's always the one where they're 00:11:12.610 --> 00:11:15.710 losing 56 hotel rooms when it would go down. 00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:19.090 So as we're out there, we start going through 00:11:19.090 --> 00:11:21.769 from the very basics. Let's check filters. Let's 00:11:21.769 --> 00:11:25.190 look at airflow. And when we start looking at 00:11:25.190 --> 00:11:27.409 filters, we find filters that were dated for 00:11:27.409 --> 00:11:31.009 startup seven years prior. No joke. Completely. 00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:35.279 They were the most efficient filter you'd ever 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:38.539 seen. It was like a sheet of drywall. So we went 00:11:38.539 --> 00:11:40.019 to the building engineer and we said, when do 00:11:40.019 --> 00:11:43.700 you change the filters? And the answer was a 00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:46.980 hydronic answer. It was when it doesn't heat 00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:50.700 or cool. No joke. And I asked, and it kind of 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:52.480 blew my mind. I'm sitting there in shock. That's 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:55.159 crazy to think about. And he said, yeah, he said, 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:58.980 you know, the building I left was a four pipe 00:11:58.980 --> 00:12:02.049 building. Yeah. And with 2 -pipe, 4 -pipe, you're 00:12:02.049 --> 00:12:04.149 not hurting the compressor if you don't change 00:12:04.149 --> 00:12:07.149 filters. You just lose either cooling. You go 00:12:07.149 --> 00:12:09.529 in, you do the filters at that time. And that 00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:11.990 was their maintenance process on a BRV system. 00:12:13.149 --> 00:12:17.149 Different animal altogether. It's unique as you're 00:12:17.149 --> 00:12:18.409 sitting there and they're going, well, what's 00:12:18.409 --> 00:12:20.769 the root cause? The root cause is lack of maintenance. 00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:28.039 Yeah. So we do see. A lot of that, not saying 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.539 there aren't unique issues, there aren't advanced 00:12:30.539 --> 00:12:35.139 issues, but one of the things I remind myself 00:12:35.139 --> 00:12:38.860 whenever I'm analyzing data or I'm seeing a problem 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:43.009 on a job. What was it doing before that? Were 00:12:43.009 --> 00:12:45.649 we having problems or was everything fine? Because 00:12:45.649 --> 00:12:48.190 if everything was fine, we probably don't have 00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:50.970 that unicorn. We don't have that problem that 00:12:50.970 --> 00:12:53.190 we get to post on social media that no one has 00:12:53.190 --> 00:12:54.990 seen. And everybody said, that's amazing. Look 00:12:54.990 --> 00:12:56.929 at this. I've never seen anything like this before. 00:12:57.629 --> 00:13:01.720 Yes, absolutely. So we've been doing the best 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:07.320 we can to help educate, to go through. What we 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.720 typically see is if we have a compressor failure 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:15.259 in the first 24 to 36 months of operation, that's 00:13:15.259 --> 00:13:18.980 a sign that we have installation. issues sure 00:13:18.980 --> 00:13:21.000 there was an area that we did something on design 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:24.220 we didn't follow manufacturer's guidelines we 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:27.340 have potentially trapped oil trapped someplace 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:30.539 like yeah exactly we have something that way 00:13:30.539 --> 00:13:33.639 if we don't have failures until we hit the you 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.179 know seven to ten year mark a lot of times what 00:13:37.179 --> 00:13:40.539 we're seeing there is maintenance but the reality 00:13:40.539 --> 00:13:43.799 of both is there are extenuating circumstances 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:50.549 sure Our group and our VRV team, one thing we 00:13:50.549 --> 00:13:52.830 do when we have bad jobs, when we have jobs that 00:13:52.830 --> 00:13:54.470 need to be re -piped, when we take them out, 00:13:54.529 --> 00:13:58.039 we really... Do a lot of investigation on the 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:00.399 removal of the failing equipment. See what was 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.000 in here before. What happened? What does the 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:06.519 system tell us? In those situations, we at times 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.919 will do a compressor teardown, even though the 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.039 equipment's being replaced, because we want to 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:12.700 see what happened to that machine. What actually 00:14:12.700 --> 00:14:14.720 happened. Yeah, can we prevent this? Is there 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.700 something we did not notice before? And we see 00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:23.629 one thing that I've been noticing. have talked 00:14:23.629 --> 00:14:26.690 about as an industry before but with vrb vrf 00:14:26.690 --> 00:14:28.789 and the piping sizes and the amount of piping 00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:32.610 yeah deburring it's huge isn't it crazy that 00:14:32.610 --> 00:14:34.850 people are not paying as much attention to that 00:14:34.850 --> 00:14:38.009 as they should we don't have filter dryers in 00:14:38.009 --> 00:14:40.049 many of these systems we're just using screens 00:14:40.049 --> 00:14:43.210 yep and they're getting they're they're shooting 00:14:43.210 --> 00:14:45.870 high velocity projectiles as they break the system 00:14:45.870 --> 00:14:48.700 break it off and yeah and then our smaller fan 00:14:48.700 --> 00:14:50.860 cools you're restricting some of them a quarter 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:53.820 inch line yeah there there's not a lot of a lot 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:55.799 of diameter there to restrict when you're cutting 00:14:55.799 --> 00:15:00.200 with tubing cutters no so we're a lot of that's 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.019 being seen on the service end again it's not 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:06.059 the it's not that that unicorn we look for we 00:15:06.059 --> 00:15:09.389 all let's face it as service techs there there's 00:15:09.389 --> 00:15:13.029 always a an ego a pride um that's very hard to 00:15:13.029 --> 00:15:14.769 defeat as you're going through but you always 00:15:14.769 --> 00:15:17.809 want the unicorn you want you want that one that 00:15:17.809 --> 00:15:20.049 you get to tell your buddies hey guess what this 00:15:20.049 --> 00:15:24.210 is my story yeah and check this we'll walk past 00:15:24.210 --> 00:15:27.929 the the you know glaring issue that's right in 00:15:27.929 --> 00:15:30.730 front of us multiple times because we're we're 00:15:30.730 --> 00:15:34.309 looking for that unicorn we we think we see it 00:15:34.309 --> 00:15:36.769 as we're going through things but then if you 00:15:36.769 --> 00:15:40.320 find your basic issue And you repair that basic 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.639 issue, and then you go back and look at your 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.799 data. Yeah. Everything resolves itself because 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.519 we got back to that point. We corrected that 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:52.720 point. Sure. And the data then lines up with 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:58.639 what we need. And it's very gratifying to be 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.200 able to solve an issue for a customer. It's also 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:04.639 very humbling when you realize that you've spent 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:06.519 the time, you've spent the two, three, four, 00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:10.649 five service calls. and you've walked past the 00:16:10.649 --> 00:16:15.549 basic issue to go through, control calibration. 00:16:15.970 --> 00:16:20.129 Yeah, true. We're not dealing with thermostats, 00:16:20.169 --> 00:16:23.669 and that's one of my biggest pet peeves. I cringe 00:16:23.669 --> 00:16:25.990 when I hear someone talking about VRV, VRF, and 00:16:25.990 --> 00:16:29.570 they go, well, I went to the thermostat. Really, 00:16:29.809 --> 00:16:32.009 the best term, in my opinion, is user interface. 00:16:32.129 --> 00:16:35.690 Yeah, user interface control. You're accessing 00:16:35.690 --> 00:16:41.850 that communication network and calibration of 00:16:41.850 --> 00:16:45.110 those controls, especially commercial techs. 00:16:45.830 --> 00:16:48.110 A lot of commercial techs will tell you when 00:16:48.110 --> 00:16:50.730 you're talking to them, they chose commercial 00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:53.009 work because they didn't want to deal with the 00:16:53.009 --> 00:16:56.289 customers. Oh, yeah. I get that. They're on the 00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:58.750 roof most of the time. Running solo, getting 00:16:58.750 --> 00:17:02.450 stuff done. Had my ticket signed and I'm on the 00:17:02.450 --> 00:17:06.470 road. That's right. And the VRV, VRF world, again, 00:17:06.529 --> 00:17:09.630 especially multifamily and schools, office spaces, 00:17:09.950 --> 00:17:13.430 they have to interact with that end user. What 00:17:13.430 --> 00:17:16.329 complaints do you have? What is actually happening 00:17:16.329 --> 00:17:18.789 with your system? And sometimes it can be as 00:17:18.789 --> 00:17:21.539 simple as calibration of a control. the it's 00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:24.039 it's overshooting and undershooting yep and it's 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:25.519 overshooting and undershooting because it's not 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:28.559 set up properly and it's it's a minute or two 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:30.579 and then they're all adjustable it's not like 00:17:30.579 --> 00:17:32.240 you can't do something about it it's literally 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.460 a matter of getting an additional tool out to 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:37.940 accurately measure that area that that thermistor 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:40.859 is sitting in whether it's in the user interface 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:44.500 or whether it is remote and go oh wow you're 00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:47.769 off four degrees but i can offset you or i can 00:17:47.769 --> 00:17:51.289 replace you exactly exactly you can place the 00:17:51.289 --> 00:17:53.849 offset you now have a controller operating exactly 00:17:53.849 --> 00:17:56.289 where where the customer wants that controller 00:17:56.289 --> 00:18:00.069 operating um and it's it's little things like 00:18:00.069 --> 00:18:02.150 that listening to your customer what are the 00:18:02.150 --> 00:18:03.869 complaints what are the things going through 00:18:03.869 --> 00:18:09.329 um another situation that that again we deal 00:18:09.329 --> 00:18:13.740 with is in the vr vrf world but We're still fighting 00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:17.400 against setback. We're fighting against the programmable 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.279 controller because it has been pushed. Used to 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.900 it in the past. 30 years we've been telling people 00:18:22.900 --> 00:18:27.240 you have to do it. If you go any more than three 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.599 degrees, you are already ruined your system, 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:34.460 your capacity. Exactly. And with VRV and VRF, 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.700 when you're dealing with a... a full inverter 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.880 compressor when you can ramp from 13 to 100 i 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.980 want that compressor for the best of my ability 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:47.640 i want it running 24 hours a day as close to 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.460 13 as i can get that oil running back to the 00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:53.039 system keep that compressor lubricated just let 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.220 it roll that's that's one of the the things that 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:59.400 as as mechanics and and as technicians that have 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:03.519 been in the field you're you're the senses your 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.059 eyes and your ears tell you so much when you're 00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:08.400 on that roof and you may be working on another 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.539 machine but if you hear a system that's cycling 00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:14.200 repeatedly right we need to look into that yeah 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:16.859 because this this equipment's not designed for 00:19:16.859 --> 00:19:21.339 that that's not the intent no so we're we're 00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:25.779 seeing in the past probably three years i am 00:19:25.779 --> 00:19:29.660 seeing a huge increase in the talent level in 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:32.779 the VRV, VRF world. We've had a lot of mechanics 00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:36.900 that were very adverse to change. They wanted 00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:39.599 the technology to go away because it was new 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:43.019 and it was scary. And now those same technicians 00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:46.279 are learning and they're embracing the technology. 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:50.279 The manufacturers are embracing easier ways to 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:52.960 diagnose. Training tools, service tools. Yeah, 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:59.410 that has so changed. We have, we're of course 00:19:59.410 --> 00:20:03.490 a Daikin rep. The Hero Pro Edge and the Hero 00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:06.789 Simple Edge have been huge for us. Being able 00:20:06.789 --> 00:20:10.569 to look at the refrigerant circuit, to have the 00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:13.490 AI built in with the manufacturer's data for 00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:19.809 prediction codes. And the AI portion we've experienced 00:20:19.809 --> 00:20:21.690 in our own, we have a new office in the Pittsburgh 00:20:21.690 --> 00:20:25.839 region. And at that office, before we started 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:28.440 the office we were one of the first pro edge 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:32.559 at a rep firm and we put that in and we're starting 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.519 to see some learning data from the ai yeah going 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.599 through and that only gets better yeah it's just 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.609 feeding it yeah because there's so much data 00:20:41.609 --> 00:20:42.809 there a lot of people don't realize how much 00:20:42.809 --> 00:20:45.230 data there is it's like on on that on that daikon 00:20:45.230 --> 00:20:47.529 side right so i went through uh installation 00:20:47.529 --> 00:20:50.250 service commissioning and so the first time i 00:20:50.250 --> 00:20:53.349 sat down you know i'm looking at my service checker 00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:55.730 and i'm going yeah check out all these inputs 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:58.289 but then everyone around in that same class is 00:20:58.289 --> 00:21:01.109 going holy cow what is all that data for i'm 00:21:01.109 --> 00:21:03.509 like well that's for reading in between the lines 00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:06.509 right that's what all that stuff is for and so 00:21:06.509 --> 00:21:10.119 you know Introducing AI to start looking at those 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.880 and then comparing against other pre -built algorithms 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.319 or the commissioning report that came with that 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:20.079 system when it actually ran well. So that is 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.779 going to change completely the way we service 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:25.000 going forward. I'm looking forward to the day. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.619 I've actually been working on a panel within 00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:30.000 our industry for like a connected commissioning 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.440 panel to introduce that into the residential 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.859 market as a universal tool in the residential 00:21:34.859 --> 00:21:36.880 market because it could save us so much time. 00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:40.529 time if we were using technology to sort through 00:21:40.529 --> 00:21:45.450 data for us yeah yeah absolutely it's uh there 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:48.589 there's still a lot of a lot of information provided 00:21:48.589 --> 00:21:51.930 there and i think you know as an industry with 00:21:51.930 --> 00:21:54.329 our shortage anything we can do that can help 00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:57.809 our shortage of talent is is visible yeah um 00:21:57.809 --> 00:22:01.410 we we train a lot of people through have tech 00:22:01.410 --> 00:22:04.349 last year we trained 1700 mechanics wow so for 00:22:04.349 --> 00:22:07.430 you man that's great Yeah, we bring a lot of 00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:11.130 people through, and we see some people their 00:22:11.130 --> 00:22:15.470 first day in the trade. Yeah. And it is absolutely 00:22:15.470 --> 00:22:19.029 drinking through the fire hose. They are bombarded. 00:22:19.549 --> 00:22:20.890 It's going to be shooting out of your ears in 00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:23.890 a minute. Hold on. Normally, we start class at 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:27.269 7 a .m. by 7 .05. It's coming out their ears, 00:22:27.329 --> 00:22:32.890 but they're learning quickly. They're going back 00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:35.980 to the basics. And that's one of the big things 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:38.640 when we teach the service and troubleshooting 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:44.140 course. We spend an immense amount of time on 00:22:44.140 --> 00:22:47.740 basic refrigeration circuit. And we go through 00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:49.920 and we go through the scenarios of restriction. 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:53.039 We go through the scenarios of overfeeding. We 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.740 go through all the different scenarios going 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:58.279 through. And then we break it out on the whiteboard. 00:22:58.339 --> 00:23:01.509 We draw a full VRV system. with you know multiple 00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.150 in cooling mode yeah they're all incorporated 00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:07.210 multiple systems multiple condensers multiple 00:23:07.210 --> 00:23:11.250 evaporators and how you would find that issue 00:23:11.250 --> 00:23:15.630 if a single unit is having a problem yeah and 00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:20.990 um we're we're seeing again a desire from technicians 00:23:20.990 --> 00:23:24.190 because we we didn't really have a large difference 00:23:24.190 --> 00:23:26.930 in the amount of people in training right from 00:23:26.930 --> 00:23:30.480 years ago what the difference we have seen is 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.460 you know three to five years ago those people 00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:35.200 were in class because the boss made them come 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:38.059 yeah somebody had to who's the one who's who's 00:23:38.059 --> 00:23:41.740 going and and now we have people that are actually 00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:44.619 requesting from their bosses they want to be 00:23:44.619 --> 00:23:47.339 in the training they want to learn vr vrf because 00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:49.559 they know where our industry is going you betcha 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:53.460 and and we're seeing that and we also you know 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:55.779 at this point you're starting to see the the 00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:58.839 in full inverter technology with rooftops yeah 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:01.160 100 that's the next big thing in our industry 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.339 right now yeah energy skilled program from the 00:24:03.339 --> 00:24:05.779 department of energy is right now writing out 00:24:05.779 --> 00:24:08.960 what that curriculum looks like for inverter 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:14.960 rtus that's the big step it's in the the fun 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:19.240 thing we have there is uh so we also are dyke 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:21.039 and applied reps we deal with the rebel and rebel 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.700 applied machine yeah so the rebel and rebel applied 00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:27.369 machine are are a package vrv essentially the 00:24:27.369 --> 00:24:31.829 rebel especially and some of the controllability 00:24:31.829 --> 00:24:34.450 we have because of the microtech controller and 00:24:34.450 --> 00:24:37.869 the things you can do we we now are sitting between 00:24:37.869 --> 00:24:42.809 our our manufacturer with diken and going it 00:24:42.809 --> 00:24:44.589 would be great if we could do what we can do 00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:47.559 with this here from over here yeah and then and 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.480 then vice versa some of the things that you have 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:51.799 to do on uh on the microtech controller we're 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:53.960 going well what if we write that program more 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.160 like the it's all the same inputs let's just 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.119 reorganize the data exactly let's let's make 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:01.619 it easier for for everybody to go through and 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:05.259 they've made uh huge leaps and bounds forward 00:25:05.259 --> 00:25:08.960 in in the control in the ability for us to set 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.839 up and adjust and really fine tune these machines 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.319 to the building that they're put into the application 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:18.180 right you know when you talk about like that 00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:20.980 whole fundamentals it was very interesting for 00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:24.319 me and so when i was doing tech support on the 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:27.670 vrv side The one fundamental that stuck out the 00:25:27.670 --> 00:25:29.369 most because we had one scenario that was like 00:25:29.369 --> 00:25:31.730 a perfect example. Like we always talk about 00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:34.809 the lack of proper nitrogen flowing in residential 00:25:34.809 --> 00:25:37.470 and how detrimental it is to the system. But 00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:40.529 that has a filter dryer that can pick up some 00:25:40.529 --> 00:25:42.789 of that. Right. We start seeing the problem after 00:25:42.789 --> 00:25:44.890 it starts compacting in the filter dryer. VRV, 00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:47.009 VRF is not the same because of those screens. 00:25:47.410 --> 00:25:49.910 So one of the applications where I found those 00:25:49.910 --> 00:25:55.940 basic practices, the like almost. multiplied 00:25:55.940 --> 00:25:57.859 in VRV -VRF. It's like when we're talking about 00:25:57.859 --> 00:26:00.759 flowing nitrogen properly on brazing applications. 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:03.380 Like residential, like commercial systems, we 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:04.680 typically have filter dryers that's going to 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:06.240 capture a significant amount of that before it 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.980 starts compacting. Then we have our loss, and 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:10.160 now we can find it and go replace it. In the 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.980 VRV -VRF where we're using screens, it is so 00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:16.900 detrimental for flowing nitrogen. We had an application 00:26:16.900 --> 00:26:19.339 where we'd had a new installation. It was actually 00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:23.569 Daikin Equipment. Really nice. really nice design, 00:26:23.809 --> 00:26:26.950 good installation, bad installation practices, 00:26:27.250 --> 00:26:29.789 right? So less than a year into this system, 00:26:29.930 --> 00:26:33.069 capacity just was running funky. We were getting 00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:36.150 a significant amount of refrigerant coming back 00:26:36.150 --> 00:26:39.630 to the compressor. So we knew that we were overfeeding 00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:43.109 in different locations. And so the very first 00:26:43.109 --> 00:26:45.279 thing we wanted to do was... They said, dive 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:46.700 in, let's see what actually happened to this 00:26:46.700 --> 00:26:49.059 thing. So as we're looking through service checker, 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:51.880 we're seeing, man, all of these EEVs are flowing 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.539 funky. They're just not flowing properly. And 00:26:55.539 --> 00:26:58.200 so then we do 100 % shutdown and see if we can 00:26:58.200 --> 00:26:59.940 pump these things down. And all of a sudden we're 00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:03.420 running at 50 % flow on 100 % shutdown. And we're 00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:06.769 like. How are all of these EEVs failed? So we 00:27:06.769 --> 00:27:08.309 started pulling all of them out, you know, pulled 00:27:08.309 --> 00:27:10.890 refrigerant, pulled the EEVs out. And we actually 00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:13.950 found that every one of those EEV points were 00:27:13.950 --> 00:27:18.269 sandblasted down to nubs because of the carbon 00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:20.970 floating through the system. And it was constantly 00:27:20.970 --> 00:27:24.170 carbon blasting the points of the electronic 00:27:24.170 --> 00:27:28.210 expansion valves. And we're like, wow. I mean, 00:27:28.230 --> 00:27:30.869 you won't see that in residential. You get here 00:27:30.869 --> 00:27:33.049 and boy, right there it was. And I was like, 00:27:33.069 --> 00:27:36.470 okay. This is 100 % installation. This is nothing 00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:40.250 to do with the product itself. We see that and 00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:45.210 we tend to relate the compressor because of the 00:27:45.210 --> 00:27:48.869 size of our VRV and VRF compressors. We think 00:27:48.869 --> 00:27:53.069 that they're a standard scroll. And the typical 00:27:53.069 --> 00:27:56.029 mechanic, if they aren't trained and aren't aware 00:27:56.029 --> 00:27:58.799 of the equipment. they don't realize the rps 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.720 that that compressor spins out oh yeah and and 00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:04.480 you're not anywhere you're not in the you know 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.819 you're not in the same game with a residential 00:28:06.819 --> 00:28:11.720 scroll compressor and the the velocity when you 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.559 have that particulate people don't re realize 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:19.480 when they're brazing without nitrogen that is 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:23.059 a hard material that cooper oxide is it's it's 00:28:23.529 --> 00:28:26.849 solid absolutely but because it breaks down so 00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:29.210 fine you put it on your fingers it doesn't feel 00:28:29.210 --> 00:28:32.470 hard right it feels like a powder yeah and they 00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:34.490 don't realize that that's sanding the inside 00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:39.009 of the equipment um years ago i was involved 00:28:39.009 --> 00:28:43.309 in a project that had a forensic analysis and 00:28:43.309 --> 00:28:47.349 uh the during the analysis it was of course it 00:28:47.349 --> 00:28:51.160 was a legal situation We were required to be 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:54.240 there as a rep, so I was on site. Dyken was on 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:59.299 site with an FSM at the time. And the contractor 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:01.359 that did the installation had someone on site, 00:29:01.460 --> 00:29:03.759 the repair contractor. There were 20 of us standing 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:09.279 there. And unfortunately, I laughed out loud. 00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:11.740 I tried to control myself. I couldn't. When he 00:29:11.740 --> 00:29:14.740 cut the compressor open, when the forensic analysis 00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:18.599 technician cut the compressor open, The compressor 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:23.240 was shiny. It was beautiful. And the contract, 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:25.980 the installing contractor literally started running 00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:29.609 around the circle. single finger saluting everyone 00:29:29.609 --> 00:29:31.869 that was involved and said, that's clean, that's 00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:33.710 perfect, that's mine. And the forensic analysis 00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:35.630 guy finally lost it and turned around and looked 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:37.609 at him and he goes, this just lost you a lawsuit. 00:29:37.609 --> 00:29:41.869 Yeah, it's not supposed to. This is copper plated. 00:29:41.869 --> 00:29:45.390 This is because of poor installation practice 00:29:45.390 --> 00:29:49.390 and just that knowledge of what the machine should 00:29:49.390 --> 00:29:51.650 look like. And that's one thing we share when 00:29:51.650 --> 00:29:55.099 we're doing compressor teardowns. A few weeks 00:29:55.099 --> 00:29:56.779 ago in our office, we had a mechanic doing a 00:29:56.779 --> 00:29:59.539 teardown, and he had just taken the scroll head 00:29:59.539 --> 00:30:02.880 off. And that preliminary look, he didn't even, 00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:06.119 he was setting the plate down to remove another 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:10.460 piece from the compressor. And if you looked 00:30:10.460 --> 00:30:13.440 everywhere but the center of the scroll plate, 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:17.430 it looked perfect. There was no issue. When you 00:30:17.430 --> 00:30:19.250 looked at the center of the scroll plate, you 00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:21.569 could see that the entire scroll plate had lost 00:30:21.569 --> 00:30:24.390 about an eighth of an inch of material. Of the 00:30:24.390 --> 00:30:26.690 backing of the plate? Really been grinding that 00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:29.690 much? It was grinding that much. And this was 00:30:29.690 --> 00:30:33.009 a job that there was copper in the compressor 00:30:33.009 --> 00:30:35.970 sump. There was Cooper oxide in the compressor 00:30:35.970 --> 00:30:40.460 sump. that's one of my my biggest things if if 00:30:40.460 --> 00:30:43.779 we have any contractors that do work for us we 00:30:43.779 --> 00:30:47.299 uh we set them up in a station for all thread 00:30:47.299 --> 00:30:49.900 and unistrut because i don't want bandsaws anywhere 00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:53.019 near where my copper is yeah um it's too tempting 00:30:53.019 --> 00:30:55.660 yep and and everybody goes well why would someone 00:30:55.660 --> 00:30:57.380 do that when you think about it it's you're cutting 00:30:57.380 --> 00:30:59.519 three pipes on a heat recovery system if they're 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.420 all the same length chop chop chop and you're 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:06.960 done yeah and and that is one of the biggest 00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.779 killers it's it's it's truly it's poor installation 00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:12.980 practice and it's not it's not a manufacturer 00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:15.220 specific i hear that a lot well the manufacturer 00:31:15.220 --> 00:31:18.569 makes it too hard and it's this is this is basic 00:31:18.569 --> 00:31:21.650 refrigeration yeah this is the way we can grab 00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:24.269 a 50 70 year old book and it'll tell you the 00:31:24.269 --> 00:31:28.009 exact same thing what shocked me is i had a contractor 00:31:28.009 --> 00:31:30.490 push back one side and say it doesn't say anywhere 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:33.109 i can't use a saw so i i pulled out my modern 00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:36.410 refrigeration textbook the latest version that 00:31:36.410 --> 00:31:40.069 i have on my shelf in my office and uh that version 00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:43.789 still stated copper can be cut with a hacksaw 00:31:43.789 --> 00:31:48.150 or tubing cutters now it does state that the 00:31:48.150 --> 00:31:51.730 copper must be kept clean yeah exactly so it's 00:31:51.730 --> 00:31:53.789 it's one of those things where you know just 00:31:53.789 --> 00:31:58.769 because you can right doesn't yeah exactly well 00:31:58.769 --> 00:32:01.009 mike i sure appreciate this how can people find 00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:04.390 out more about havtech uh so our website havtech 00:32:04.390 --> 00:32:08.210 .com um you we have multiple different tabs on 00:32:08.210 --> 00:32:10.390 that site you can go to our training site we 00:32:10.390 --> 00:32:14.200 are running vrv training uh multiple classes 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:17.819 every month. We also have training for our other 00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:21.059 manufacturers. Addison, we have a training course 00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:24.990 on there. We have a training course on the Microtech 00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:27.329 3 and Rebel, Microtech 4 and Rebel applied. So 00:32:27.329 --> 00:32:30.369 we do a lot of training, and we're always up 00:32:30.369 --> 00:32:33.150 to help the industry. And if you do have issues 00:32:33.150 --> 00:32:36.170 on a VRV system or any VRF system, we work on 00:32:36.170 --> 00:32:38.470 them all. Our service group is always available 00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:40.589 to help. Sweet. All right, man. I really appreciate 00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:42.289 you hanging out today. Thank you. It was great 00:32:42.289 --> 00:32:43.849 to be with you. All right. Have a good rest of 00:32:43.849 --> 00:32:44.750 your conference. Thank you.