WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.279 There's a growing movement in the residential 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:05.780 sector, mainly stimulated by government incentives, 00:00:06.059 --> 00:00:09.419 I'll have to admit, at this stage, to get that 00:00:09.419 --> 00:00:13.339 transition and to try and convince householders, 00:00:13.339 --> 00:00:16.359 who are obviously very tight on budgets sometimes, 00:00:16.500 --> 00:00:19.359 to get them to invest in new technologies as 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:27.660 required government incentive. Well, hey there, 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.820 HVAC pros and enthusiasts. Are you ready to take 00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:33.780 your skills to the next level? The HVACR Learning 00:00:33.780 --> 00:00:36.600 Network has just launched an exciting new e -learning 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.640 course, High Performance Heat Pumps. And guess 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:42.880 what? We're giving you free access to the first 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:47.859 two chapters. 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Thank you for joining 00:01:34.579 --> 00:01:37.840 us once again on... the Did You Know podcast. 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:40.560 So we're spending some time with Kevin Stickney 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.879 looking at solutions and opportunities to relook 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:48.140 at geothermal applications. So I'm currently 00:01:48.140 --> 00:01:50.459 out on the road. I just stopped here in central 00:01:50.459 --> 00:01:53.959 Indiana at one of our largest wind turbine generation 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:57.739 areas. So here just north of Lafayette, Indiana, 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.140 we have thousands of wind turbines. So we're 00:02:00.140 --> 00:02:03.390 constantly looking for energy solutions. And 00:02:03.390 --> 00:02:06.549 there was a time where geothermal energy, geothermal 00:02:06.549 --> 00:02:10.729 heat pumps in particularly, were a solid solution 00:02:10.729 --> 00:02:13.530 here in the United States. Well, as we've increased 00:02:13.530 --> 00:02:15.069 technology, especially when we start looking 00:02:15.069 --> 00:02:18.949 at high -performing inverters and just opportunities 00:02:18.949 --> 00:02:21.849 to relook at technology, we're starting to spend 00:02:21.849 --> 00:02:24.990 more time focusing on heat pump solutions. So, 00:02:24.990 --> 00:02:27.530 Kevin, can you tell us a little bit about your 00:02:27.530 --> 00:02:31.129 background and the evolution that you've spent 00:02:31.129 --> 00:02:35.439 in the industry? Yes. Yeah. Thank you. And thank 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:39.120 you for having me. So, yes. Background in the 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.939 industry. So mechanical building services engineer 00:02:42.939 --> 00:02:46.719 chartered with CIBSI across here in the UK. That's 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.000 the equivalent of the ASHRAE. Yes. Organization 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:54.460 in the US. So, yes, I have been practicing building 00:02:54.460 --> 00:02:58.840 services. longer than i care to admit to to be 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:04.379 fair probably in about um you know 15 20 years 00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:08.800 ago you know certainly for the uk that whole 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:13.819 um sustainability renewability um eco sort of 00:03:13.819 --> 00:03:19.199 movement began and uh yeah i got interested in 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.020 heat pumps as as in in those days the new form 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:28.639 of of heating um so cutting a long story short 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:31.259 decided to go from general building services 00:03:31.259 --> 00:03:34.759 and sort of designing buildings you know working 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:36.560 alongside architects and civil structural engineers 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:41.879 decided to specialize in um sort of using the 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:46.500 ground as a source for heat pumps to provide 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:51.960 um efficient heating and cooling so yeah since 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:58.879 then Been steadily developing. Took us two or 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:02.219 three years in the sort of R &D stage, if you 00:04:02.219 --> 00:04:04.939 like, to get us technology ready before we were 00:04:04.939 --> 00:04:08.919 launched into our first building. But yeah, since 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:14.520 then, we now, we design, we install, we sometimes 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:19.850 own, we operate, we maintain. we optimize so 00:04:19.850 --> 00:04:22.689 really from cradle to grave from from a project 00:04:22.689 --> 00:04:27.610 perspective um yeah deploy assets for heating 00:04:27.610 --> 00:04:30.509 and cooling using using the earth primarily as 00:04:30.509 --> 00:04:34.180 the energy source but not exclusively Sure. You 00:04:34.180 --> 00:04:36.240 know, we spend a lot of time looking at heat 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:38.740 pump solutions here in the United States and 00:04:38.740 --> 00:04:42.480 our, you know, our ground source heat pumps have 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.060 really came a long way. Now, we spend a lot more 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:47.120 time focusing on those in residential applications 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:49.720 in the past, but we're starting to spend more 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.819 time focusing on the commercial applications. 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.680 So in the UK, what has been that standard? Like, 00:04:55.699 --> 00:04:59.519 how has that changed if it has over time? Are 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:04.300 they becoming more? more acceptable, better received 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:06.279 than they have in the past couple of generations? 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:10.319 Yes, yes. I would definitely say it's been slow. 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:12.600 Don't get me wrong. I think anything in the heat 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:17.759 and the energy market is slow. But yeah, I think 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:20.360 there's a growing movement in the residential 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:23.920 sector, mainly stimulated by government incentives, 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:27.500 I'll have to admit at this stage, to get that 00:05:27.500 --> 00:05:31.410 transition. to try and convince householders 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:34.089 you know obviously very tight um tight on budget 00:05:34.089 --> 00:05:37.230 sometimes to get them to invest in new technologies 00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:41.389 as required government incentive um but businesses 00:05:41.389 --> 00:05:44.290 have i think been a little bit more um forward 00:05:44.290 --> 00:05:47.089 thinking um you know obviously they they have 00:05:47.089 --> 00:05:50.550 um different budgets and corporate social responsibilities 00:05:50.550 --> 00:05:53.800 that they have to fulfill so i think the Yes, 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:56.620 I would say that the sort of commercial side 00:05:56.620 --> 00:06:00.079 is leading the charge, but residentially, you 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:02.019 know, we're certainly catching up with the number 00:06:02.019 --> 00:06:05.259 of heat pumps that the government's targeting 00:06:05.259 --> 00:06:09.920 installation. And yeah, you know, more and more 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.819 of these are done, you know, prices start to 00:06:13.819 --> 00:06:16.259 come down, reliability goes up, knowledge in 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:22.579 the industry goes up. And yeah, I think. you 00:06:22.579 --> 00:06:26.540 know, I think it's a sound investment and it'll 00:06:26.540 --> 00:06:30.439 provide good, reliable heat. So you can be more 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.819 popular. Now, so when we look at, say, the commercial 00:06:33.819 --> 00:06:36.720 applications, are you seeing more like new construction? 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.779 Are you seeing system retrofits where we're doing 00:06:39.779 --> 00:06:41.759 installations, you know, once the building's 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:45.660 already established? Yeah, we're seeing a healthy 00:06:45.660 --> 00:06:48.699 mixture. I think we're seeing new buildings being 00:06:48.699 --> 00:06:52.079 mandated to obviously think about and provide 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:54.980 a solution. Obviously, it's not always ground. 00:06:55.060 --> 00:06:58.819 Ground's not always suitable for every building, 00:06:58.860 --> 00:07:01.100 but there's certainly new and higher standards 00:07:01.100 --> 00:07:05.040 for new buildings. But yeah, I mean, we work 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.779 with a lot of clients who have... uh large building 00:07:08.779 --> 00:07:12.040 portfolios and that ranges from yeah very well 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:14.360 established you know sort of red brick university 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:18.120 buildings you know seats of learning that have 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.180 been in in place hundreds of years um and yeah 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:25.199 i think one of the one of the key drivers in 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:28.279 us designing this kind of technology that we've 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:32.300 got was to be able to retrofit high energy use 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:35.459 intensity buildings in relatively small spaces 00:07:35.459 --> 00:07:38.759 because you know certainly in the uk that makes 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.199 up a lot of our our building stock you know high 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.600 energy use uh in in in tight spaces city center 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.360 spaces um so yeah you know to be able to provide 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.060 a solution have a solution that would suit that 00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:54.160 market um i think it puts us in a quite unique 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.980 and strong position Yeah, absolutely. And that's 00:07:56.980 --> 00:07:59.160 the same kind of scenario that we have here in 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:00.680 the United States. We're looking at solutions. 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:03.319 A lot of our older commercial buildings, particularly, 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:06.160 especially those midsize two to three story commercial 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.720 buildings, we spent a lot of times with gas fired 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.439 boilers. We had chillers. We may have had rooftop 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.509 package units, air to air systems. And so when 00:08:16.509 --> 00:08:18.589 we start looking at those coefficient of performance 00:08:18.589 --> 00:08:22.350 opportunities that we have in heat pump technologies, 00:08:22.449 --> 00:08:23.689 in particular, when we start looking at like 00:08:23.689 --> 00:08:26.170 geothermal applications, we can significantly 00:08:26.170 --> 00:08:28.730 reduce the energy consumption of a structure 00:08:28.730 --> 00:08:32.029 when we start looking at its, you know, its heat 00:08:32.029 --> 00:08:35.009 pump opportunities. So when you start looking 00:08:35.009 --> 00:08:37.409 at geothermal applications, are you spending 00:08:37.409 --> 00:08:40.330 more time with like vertical well? Are we doing 00:08:40.330 --> 00:08:43.029 like horizontal geothermal loop installations? 00:08:43.070 --> 00:08:46.059 What seems to be the primary? installation type 00:08:46.059 --> 00:08:50.399 that you see in the uk um we have arranged we 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:55.799 specialize in inclined coaxial ah so yes um we 00:08:55.799 --> 00:09:00.059 are coaxial because we want to get um higher 00:09:00.059 --> 00:09:03.500 capacity than some of the the traditional sort 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:07.779 of plastic youtubes um and inclined such that 00:09:07.779 --> 00:09:10.200 we can reach from reach from surface from relatively 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.610 small spaces at surface reach out at an angle 00:09:14.610 --> 00:09:17.850 subsurface, which is particularly relevant for 00:09:17.850 --> 00:09:20.029 the retrofit. So where there's an existing building 00:09:20.029 --> 00:09:22.289 and you might have a, maybe there's a parking 00:09:22.289 --> 00:09:26.070 lot, maybe there's a relatively small space available 00:09:26.070 --> 00:09:29.490 on the surface, we can reach out underneath existing 00:09:29.490 --> 00:09:31.909 buildings and tap into the geothermal potential. 00:09:33.190 --> 00:09:39.389 So yeah, that's the kind of technology that we've 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:42.779 developed to be able. to retrofit these high 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:45.960 -end use intensity buildings. Yeah, that's very 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:47.500 interesting. So when we start thinking about 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.120 the available landscape that we have underneath 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:52.159 of a structure, here in the Midwest, sometimes 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:55.740 we do have challenges with depth. We have a lot 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:58.159 of limestone and bedrock, particularly here in 00:09:58.159 --> 00:09:59.799 the Midwest, but many parts of the United States. 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.799 So depth of drilling is always a concern. So 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.840 what type of depth are we looking at with your 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:12.980 installations? so we tend to to aim for two to 00:10:12.980 --> 00:10:15.779 three hundred meters um i put that into feet 00:10:15.779 --> 00:10:18.159 for you but i've forgotten but uh but yeah sort 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:19.899 of two to three hundred meters that's that's 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:22.679 at the moment our sort of sweet spot And again, 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:24.519 depending on the application, whether we're looking 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.600 at a cooling -dominated building or a heating 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.039 -dominated building, if it's heated -dominated, 00:10:29.059 --> 00:10:31.879 we might want to go deeper to the deeper end 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.019 so we can try and get into that slightly higher 00:10:35.019 --> 00:10:37.399 geothermal gradient. If it's a cooling -dominated 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.779 building, then we might want to stay a little 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:43.220 bit shallower so it's not quite as warm. So again, 00:10:43.299 --> 00:10:45.440 we're just trying to leverage the right temperature 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.279 in the Earth for the right application that we're 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.019 serving on surface. Sure. Now, one of the things 00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:55.080 that we're really struggling with, I think, here 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:56.659 in the United States as we're going through the 00:10:56.659 --> 00:10:59.159 HFC phase down, here at ESCO, we spend a lot 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:02.139 of time doing training and education on our refrigerant 00:11:02.139 --> 00:11:06.600 solutions. Predominantly here in the United States, 00:11:06.659 --> 00:11:10.720 we used a lot of R410A for our refrigerant in 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:12.820 heat pump applications, even in our geothermal 00:11:12.820 --> 00:11:16.720 systems. What are you seeing as dominant refrigerant 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.659 types when we're looking at some of these newer 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:21.909 systems? Yeah, no, that's an interesting question, 00:11:22.110 --> 00:11:23.149 isn't it? I think that's going to be hitting 00:11:23.149 --> 00:11:26.509 the markets wherever you are. Yes. Yeah, I mean, 00:11:26.529 --> 00:11:30.950 I would say, yeah, even as recent as three, four, 00:11:30.990 --> 00:11:33.870 five years ago, we'd have been in the 410, the 00:11:33.870 --> 00:11:38.029 407, you know, the 134A kind of ballpark, those 00:11:38.029 --> 00:11:42.309 traditional sort of HVAC refrigerants. But yeah, 00:11:42.389 --> 00:11:48.240 now we are using and integrating. um what are 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.600 we using we're allowed for co2 so oh yeah absolutely 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:57.100 um for the right application um we're using propane 00:11:57.100 --> 00:12:03.120 and butane so 290. um yeah so so again what we're 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.879 trying to do along with all parts of our system 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.879 is find the right component to fit within the 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:12.600 system for the right application so yeah you 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:17.090 know we use co2 we quite it's got its good characteristics 00:12:17.090 --> 00:12:20.129 it's got its bad characteristics it's it can 00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:22.750 be quite a fussy gas in terms of the temperatures 00:12:22.750 --> 00:12:27.029 on on the secondary side that it likes um and 00:12:27.029 --> 00:12:29.009 it's and it's high pressure you know so you've 00:12:29.009 --> 00:12:34.370 got safety concerns to look at and then the same 00:12:34.370 --> 00:12:37.169 with 290 so 290 where we have those would be 00:12:37.169 --> 00:12:38.990 more in retrofit applications where we need to 00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:41.509 reach those slightly higher secondary temperatures 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.759 because we're we're connecting to legacy systems 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:47.279 or the fabric's not quite as good so you can't 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.740 get the size of heat emitter that ideally you'd 00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:53.220 want for a lower temperature so again you know 00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:56.639 r290 is a great gas yeah but it's got its it's 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.620 got its characteristics it's obviously explosive 00:12:58.620 --> 00:13:00.879 so you've got to deal with with the atex regulations 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:05.419 or yeah making it safe um and there's always 00:13:05.419 --> 00:13:07.580 ammonia you know we haven't used ammonia a lot 00:13:07.580 --> 00:13:10.460 again you know it's it's well used in industrial 00:13:10.460 --> 00:13:13.860 processes But once you start to move those sorts 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.779 of gases into that sort of commercial and definitely 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:19.259 the residential space, you know, you've got to 00:13:19.259 --> 00:13:21.179 be careful. You've got to be careful. For sure. 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:24.159 And that's what we look at here as well is, you 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:25.379 know, we're looking at what are those alternative 00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:26.620 refrigerants. You know, we're going to start 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:29.700 seeing more of our A2L generations, our R32, 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:34.759 R454B. We haven't implemented high enough quantities 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:38.059 of R290 to be able to successfully be used in 00:13:38.059 --> 00:13:40.580 our heat pump applications. We're looking at 00:13:40.580 --> 00:13:43.080 that. So ASHRAE is currently studying, you know, 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:45.539 to see what those maximum limits are and, you 00:13:45.539 --> 00:13:47.899 know, what is the, you know, the contact and 00:13:47.899 --> 00:13:51.200 exposure to, you know. Consumers, end users. 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:54.179 And so I anticipate us to be implementing more 00:13:54.179 --> 00:13:57.200 of the R290 and CO2 applications here in the 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.100 near future. I've got a 290 SLC pump from my 00:14:01.100 --> 00:14:04.120 house. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. So I use that 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:07.519 in the domestic setting. And then, yeah, we use 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:12.500 that in the commercial heat pumps. So that's 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:14.080 very intriguing. So here in the United States, 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.419 I'm kind of a bell ringer in our industry. Trying 00:14:17.419 --> 00:14:19.220 to, you know, work with our educators. We work 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:21.080 with about 1 ,400 schools across the country. 00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:24.220 So we're trying to keep our educators current 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:25.860 with, you know, what's happening around the world. 00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:27.679 And I keep saying that, you know, we're less 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.580 than two years away from residential air -to 00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:34.000 -water R290 monoblock systems, residential heat 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:35.720 pump chillers. And a lot of people think that 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:37.399 I'm crazy. And I say, well, we're currently using 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.679 those around the world very successfully. And 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.000 so, you know. If there's another opportunity 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.220 for us to have a discussion about residential 00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:47.019 R290 systems down the road, I would absolutely 00:14:47.019 --> 00:14:50.159 love to do that. I'm meeting a lot of resistance 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.100 here in the United States, and I think that is 00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.720 our solution. That's how the market goes, isn't 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.340 it? We have the same here. There's resistance. 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:58.940 There's the incumbents that don't want change. 00:14:59.980 --> 00:15:02.580 You throw in something like 290 and you get the 00:15:02.580 --> 00:15:08.889 whole safety fears. Yeah, it's overcoming perceptions, 00:15:09.210 --> 00:15:11.950 but yeah, it's certainly working. I would say, 00:15:11.990 --> 00:15:15.289 you know, we're not installing the domestic market, 00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:18.309 but the person who installed my personal heat 00:15:18.309 --> 00:15:20.649 pump in the home, you know, they explicitly do 00:15:20.649 --> 00:15:23.490 290. They say it's the right gas for the application. 00:15:23.870 --> 00:15:25.529 You know, again, that's sort of retrofitting. 00:15:26.429 --> 00:15:30.289 So it's a retrofit. So we ripped out the gas 00:15:30.289 --> 00:15:33.730 furnace and replaced it with a 290 heat pump. 00:15:33.750 --> 00:15:36.940 Had to upgrade some radiators. Sure. But again, 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.480 yeah, here in the UK, it seems to be that the 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:41.220 refrigerant that's gaining the most traction, 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:45.159 I would say, in that kind of area. Yeah, I believe 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:47.000 that as well. You know, one of the things that 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.240 I was very attracted to when I started looking 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.580 at your company was like your carbon matrix analysis. 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.820 Can you tell me a little bit about what you're 00:15:55.820 --> 00:15:59.059 doing in that sector? Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, 00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:01.399 that's fascinating. I must admit, that's not 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:03.899 a question that I get asked often. to be quite 00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:08.299 frank that whole system carbon content yes so 00:16:08.299 --> 00:16:10.519 i am absolutely fascinated that you asked that 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.600 in the first place that's brilliant but so yeah 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.600 so where was that so that was yeah that was really 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:18.779 because back in the day when we started looking 00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:21.039 at that transition that transition to heat pumps 00:16:21.610 --> 00:16:23.730 yes and looking around in the market people are 00:16:23.730 --> 00:16:25.350 saying we've got to decarbonize you've got to 00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:27.289 get the carbon out of your heat yeah et cetera 00:16:27.289 --> 00:16:31.710 et cetera and yeah the question is why and once 00:16:31.710 --> 00:16:33.070 you've answered that question the question is 00:16:33.070 --> 00:16:36.049 how so we were seeing at that time a lot of you 00:16:36.049 --> 00:16:39.429 know a wide range of different technologies and 00:16:39.429 --> 00:16:42.309 the same technologies saying switch to me and 00:16:42.309 --> 00:16:45.490 your carbon content will drop by this much right 00:16:45.490 --> 00:16:50.070 um but it was very difficult to get you know 00:16:50.070 --> 00:16:52.370 as an engineer you try and dig into that and 00:16:52.370 --> 00:16:53.809 look at it so well how are you doing that does 00:16:53.809 --> 00:16:55.750 that stuff yeah where's the data how do we validate 00:16:55.750 --> 00:16:57.509 the data absolutely where are the references 00:16:57.509 --> 00:17:00.129 for those data points that you've picked and 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:04.089 you know and certainly in the uk and i'm pretty 00:17:04.089 --> 00:17:06.710 sure it's the same in the us the regulatory figures 00:17:06.710 --> 00:17:08.849 that we have to use when planning new systems 00:17:08.849 --> 00:17:13.410 is very far behind our electricity market so 00:17:13.410 --> 00:17:15.789 wind and solar have overtaken in terms of generation 00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:18.170 so that's pulled down the carbon content of electricity 00:17:18.939 --> 00:17:22.460 But our regulation, which is or was, because 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:24.400 we're reforming that a little bit better now, 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.660 but was, let's say, five years behind the market. 00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:29.640 So when I was designing a new building now to 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.900 last 25 years into the future, I had to use regulatory 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:35.920 figures to prove my carbon content that were 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.579 five years out of date. Oh, wow. So we were looking 00:17:39.579 --> 00:17:41.460 at that and thinking, right, so that's a problem 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.980 with the regulatory. But also, how do I describe 00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:48.599 my own carbon content? because I'm sure you'll 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.740 know. So you've got grid electricity, which fluctuates 00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:54.359 every five minutes as to what the contribution 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.839 is to that grid. You've got your heat pump, which 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.940 can vary in terms of its efficiency every five 00:18:00.940 --> 00:18:05.059 minutes. So low -loaded, high -loaded, high COP, 00:18:05.259 --> 00:18:09.960 low COP, and different amounts of heat. So if 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.400 it's first thing in the morning, you've got a 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:14.950 terrible COP at a high carbon. content off the 00:18:14.950 --> 00:18:17.670 grid that's that's one sort of factors but then 00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:19.410 you run it for the rest of the day you heat pump 00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:21.829 it the rest of the day you know a lower load 00:18:21.829 --> 00:18:25.109 higher efficiency grid carbons change you know 00:18:25.109 --> 00:18:27.509 so there were you know three very dynamic factors 00:18:27.509 --> 00:18:30.630 within actually working out what the carbon content 00:18:30.630 --> 00:18:33.150 of our heat was so what we wanted to do is say 00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:36.130 well you know can we pull all that data together 00:18:36.130 --> 00:18:38.849 into one place into the same sort of time stamp 00:18:39.630 --> 00:18:42.390 and then do a calculation to work out that specific 00:18:42.390 --> 00:18:46.390 chunk of five minutes for us you know what what 00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:49.109 heat did we generate what electricity did we 00:18:49.109 --> 00:18:52.210 use to generate that heat what was the carbon 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:55.009 content of that electricity again off the grid 00:18:55.009 --> 00:18:58.390 you know off of our standard uk grid and there 00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:00.869 are so many grids you know again so many different 00:19:00.869 --> 00:19:03.710 grids within grids so you know there's arguments 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:05.829 about about what factor you take but you know 00:19:05.829 --> 00:19:09.720 stay into that put those all together And then 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.680 really say, right, actually, that was the carbon 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.579 that we used to generate that amount of heat, 00:19:15.740 --> 00:19:18.259 which means our carbon content of heat was this. 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.160 And what we found, even five, ten years ago, 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.480 is that we were 50 % better than the regulatory 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.539 figures that we were using. So, yeah, since then, 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.160 we have been tracking that. So every five minutes, 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:35.880 we get the data from the electricity grid to 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.319 say what generators contributed. you know nuclear 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:43.259 wind solar gas we haven't got any uh coal anymore 00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:45.380 on our grid in the uk so that's that's a plus 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:47.960 you know imports and exports from france from 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.019 europe from norway from ireland for us you know 00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:53.400 putting those all into the into the mix as a 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.559 five minute pot and then because we operate and 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:58.819 maintain and optimize our systems we also get 00:19:58.819 --> 00:20:02.180 our data so that allowed me to amalgamate them 00:20:02.180 --> 00:20:06.349 to do the sums And then we can display that figure 00:20:06.349 --> 00:20:09.950 on our website. We display it every five minutes. 00:20:10.109 --> 00:20:13.130 So it changes every five minutes. So we're usually 00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:15.549 about half hour to 45 minutes behind because 00:20:15.549 --> 00:20:16.849 we've got to pull the data and we've got to do 00:20:16.849 --> 00:20:18.650 the same. Got to calculate it. Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:18.890 --> 00:20:21.210 Got to calculate it. That allows us to do a five 00:20:21.210 --> 00:20:23.069 minute chunk, which I think really allows people 00:20:23.069 --> 00:20:26.269 to see the sort of the dynamic nature of how 00:20:26.269 --> 00:20:28.130 a heat pump works. So sometimes in the morning, 00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:31.319 yeah, your COP will be three and a half. four 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:33.460 sometimes in the afternoon you're talking about 00:20:33.460 --> 00:20:38.299 five five to six cop's and and yeah and the grid 00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:42.059 fluctuates as well and then over time gathering 00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:44.500 all of that data is allowed to amel allow us 00:20:44.500 --> 00:20:47.440 to amalgamate it and you know and also then get 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:51.500 get that sort of annual average so so at the 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:54.339 moment our regulatory figure is somewhere in 00:20:54.339 --> 00:21:00.640 the 225 grams of co2 mark um But through gathering 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.380 and analyzing this data, we know that our figure 00:21:03.380 --> 00:21:06.960 right now for heat is closer to about 30 grams 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.720 of CO2 for every kilowatt hour. So, yeah, so 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.559 we can confidently say to our clients, well, 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:15.519 you know, this is how we've actually reduced, 00:21:15.619 --> 00:21:18.019 you know, your carbon content. Your carbon footprint. 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.819 Yeah. Yes. As well as your energy use. Yes, exactly. 00:21:23.059 --> 00:21:29.380 Exactly. Wow. I absolutely love that. I'm kind 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:31.680 of a geek and a nerd in our industry. And for 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.500 me, data is the only thing that we can use to 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:38.539 validate performance. And when you're using calculated 00:21:38.539 --> 00:21:40.740 data like that, we're actually showing not only 00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:43.660 our energy reduction, we're showing the reduction 00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:46.039 in our carbon footprint. And so when we're together, 00:21:46.180 --> 00:21:47.740 we can start looking at that and we can understand 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:52.759 our own impact for energy consumption. It's brilliant. 00:21:53.609 --> 00:21:56.130 it's quite and again looking at it that looking 00:21:56.130 --> 00:21:57.369 at them when you're starting to look at those 00:21:57.369 --> 00:21:59.470 numbers and then we go back and analyze it and 00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:02.130 say oh right there's a peak in in energy use 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:05.849 so yeah or there's a peak in in carbon how can 00:22:05.849 --> 00:22:08.289 we then adjust how we would use our heat pump 00:22:08.289 --> 00:22:10.769 you know to get us out to those periods of high 00:22:10.769 --> 00:22:12.670 carbon or to get us out of those periods of high 00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:14.990 cost or out of those periods of low low efficiency 00:22:14.990 --> 00:22:17.529 so again looking at those numbers it goes allows 00:22:17.529 --> 00:22:19.970 us to go back and analyze it so you know we can 00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:21.849 ask ourselves what what could we have done differently 00:22:21.849 --> 00:22:24.460 do we And again, that's why using the ground 00:22:24.460 --> 00:22:28.119 is really special because if we want to get a 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:30.539 better efficiency at a certain time in the day, 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.960 then we know we need to load that ground with 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.960 energy to store and to be available back to us 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:41.400 at that different time when we really need it. 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.700 So again, firstly calculating that data then 00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.539 allows us to analyze it and then it allows us 00:22:46.539 --> 00:22:50.759 to make better acts, better controls, better 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.589 solutions. Yeah, better management and algorithms 00:22:53.589 --> 00:22:57.130 for our... Controls. Wonderful. Well, Kevin Stickney, 00:22:57.190 --> 00:22:59.069 I really appreciate your time. Where can we learn 00:22:59.069 --> 00:23:01.930 more about this data so we can actually see some 00:23:01.930 --> 00:23:05.549 live calculations of all of this that we've been 00:23:05.549 --> 00:23:08.349 discussed? Yeah, you can see that on our website. 00:23:09.089 --> 00:23:10.829 Again, because we own and operate buildings, 00:23:11.089 --> 00:23:13.250 I can gather all the data. We anonymize it. So 00:23:13.250 --> 00:23:15.089 I'm not telling you whose building does what, 00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:17.470 but we gather it on our website. So that's erdaenergy 00:23:17.470 --> 00:23:21.789 .com. If you go to our insights page and scroll 00:23:21.789 --> 00:23:24.750 down, you can see a chart. showing the five minute 00:23:24.750 --> 00:23:29.069 data you can see our our actual data versus a 00:23:29.069 --> 00:23:33.529 simulated you can use either gas or oil and here 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:35.549 in the UK you can put yourself in the English 00:23:35.549 --> 00:23:38.690 grid or the Welsh grid or Scottish grid so you 00:23:38.690 --> 00:23:41.009 know you can pick different grid carbon emissions 00:23:41.009 --> 00:23:45.029 and then keep scrolling down and you'll see how 00:23:45.029 --> 00:23:47.710 that's tracked over time so you can do a comparison 00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:52.029 for you know for the last month and I think the 00:23:52.029 --> 00:23:57.380 last three years See how that's tracked. Very 00:23:57.380 --> 00:24:00.500 cool. I love it. Yeah, I will absolutely spend 00:24:00.500 --> 00:24:02.960 some time diving into some of your data. I encourage 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.359 everyone to take a look at the website, get a 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.900 little bit more familiar with, you know, analyzing 00:24:08.900 --> 00:24:12.019 energy costs and consumptions. And I really appreciate 00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:14.279 your time hanging out with us today. Well, thank 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:15.539 you. Thank you for the invite. Thank you for 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:17.200 the question. Like I said, fascinating question. 00:24:18.009 --> 00:24:20.269 Yeah, it really is. Yeah, this is the kind of 00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:22.809 stuff that I enjoy having conversations on, helping 00:24:22.809 --> 00:24:25.130 people get outside of their comfort zone and 00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:27.970 have a better understanding of our own carbon 00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:31.309 footprint. And without data, we don't have, you 00:24:31.309 --> 00:24:33.329 know, concise analysis. So I really appreciate 00:24:33.329 --> 00:24:35.950 the effort that you put into that. Well, thank 00:24:35.950 --> 00:24:37.630 you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. So 00:24:37.630 --> 00:24:40.069 happy reading on the website. Don't track it 00:24:40.069 --> 00:24:44.359 all day. All right. Well, thank you very much 00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:45.880 for your time. And we appreciate you joining 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:49.140 us today on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast. 00:24:50.539 --> 00:24:52.640 Thank you. Thank you. Have a great day.