There's a growing movement in the residential
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here. All right, everyone. Thank you for joining
us once again on... the Did You Know podcast.
So we're spending some time with Kevin Stickney
looking at solutions and opportunities to relook
at geothermal applications. So I'm currently
out on the road. I just stopped here in central
Indiana at one of our largest wind turbine generation
areas. So here just north of Lafayette, Indiana,
we have thousands of wind turbines. So we're
constantly looking for energy solutions. And
there was a time where geothermal energy, geothermal
heat pumps in particularly, were a solid solution
here in the United States. Well, as we've increased
technology, especially when we start looking
at high -performing inverters and just opportunities
to relook at technology, we're starting to spend
more time focusing on heat pump solutions. So,
Kevin, can you tell us a little bit about your
background and the evolution that you've spent
in the industry? Yes. Yeah. Thank you. And thank
you for having me. So, yes. Background in the
industry. So mechanical building services engineer
chartered with CIBSI across here in the UK. That's
the equivalent of the ASHRAE. Yes. Organization
in the US. So, yes, I have been practicing building
services. longer than i care to admit to to be
fair probably in about um you know 15 20 years
ago you know certainly for the uk that whole
um sustainability renewability um eco sort of
movement began and uh yeah i got interested in
heat pumps as as in in those days the new form
of of heating um so cutting a long story short
decided to go from general building services
and sort of designing buildings you know working
alongside architects and civil structural engineers
decided to specialize in um sort of using the
ground as a source for heat pumps to provide
um efficient heating and cooling so yeah since
then Been steadily developing. Took us two or
three years in the sort of R &D stage, if you
like, to get us technology ready before we were
launched into our first building. But yeah, since
then, we now, we design, we install, we sometimes
own, we operate, we maintain. we optimize so
really from cradle to grave from from a project
perspective um yeah deploy assets for heating
and cooling using using the earth primarily as
the energy source but not exclusively Sure. You
know, we spend a lot of time looking at heat
pump solutions here in the United States and
our, you know, our ground source heat pumps have
really came a long way. Now, we spend a lot more
time focusing on those in residential applications
in the past, but we're starting to spend more
time focusing on the commercial applications.
So in the UK, what has been that standard? Like,
how has that changed if it has over time? Are
they becoming more? more acceptable, better received
than they have in the past couple of generations?
Yes, yes. I would definitely say it's been slow.
Don't get me wrong. I think anything in the heat
and the energy market is slow. But yeah, I think
there's a growing movement in the residential
sector, mainly stimulated by government incentives,
I'll have to admit at this stage, to get that
transition. to try and convince householders
you know obviously very tight um tight on budget
sometimes to get them to invest in new technologies
as required government incentive um but businesses
have i think been a little bit more um forward
thinking um you know obviously they they have
um different budgets and corporate social responsibilities
that they have to fulfill so i think the Yes,
I would say that the sort of commercial side
is leading the charge, but residentially, you
know, we're certainly catching up with the number
of heat pumps that the government's targeting
installation. And yeah, you know, more and more
of these are done, you know, prices start to
come down, reliability goes up, knowledge in
the industry goes up. And yeah, I think. you
know, I think it's a sound investment and it'll
provide good, reliable heat. So you can be more
popular. Now, so when we look at, say, the commercial
applications, are you seeing more like new construction?
Are you seeing system retrofits where we're doing
installations, you know, once the building's
already established? Yeah, we're seeing a healthy
mixture. I think we're seeing new buildings being
mandated to obviously think about and provide
a solution. Obviously, it's not always ground.
Ground's not always suitable for every building,
but there's certainly new and higher standards
for new buildings. But yeah, I mean, we work
with a lot of clients who have... uh large building
portfolios and that ranges from yeah very well
established you know sort of red brick university
buildings you know seats of learning that have
been in in place hundreds of years um and yeah
i think one of the one of the key drivers in
us designing this kind of technology that we've
got was to be able to retrofit high energy use
intensity buildings in relatively small spaces
because you know certainly in the uk that makes
up a lot of our our building stock you know high
energy use uh in in in tight spaces city center
spaces um so yeah you know to be able to provide
a solution have a solution that would suit that
market um i think it puts us in a quite unique
and strong position Yeah, absolutely. And that's
the same kind of scenario that we have here in
the United States. We're looking at solutions.
A lot of our older commercial buildings, particularly,
especially those midsize two to three story commercial
buildings, we spent a lot of times with gas fired
boilers. We had chillers. We may have had rooftop
package units, air to air systems. And so when
we start looking at those coefficient of performance
opportunities that we have in heat pump technologies,
in particular, when we start looking at like
geothermal applications, we can significantly
reduce the energy consumption of a structure
when we start looking at its, you know, its heat
pump opportunities. So when you start looking
at geothermal applications, are you spending
more time with like vertical well? Are we doing
like horizontal geothermal loop installations?
What seems to be the primary? installation type
that you see in the uk um we have arranged we
specialize in inclined coaxial ah so yes um we
are coaxial because we want to get um higher
capacity than some of the the traditional sort
of plastic youtubes um and inclined such that
we can reach from reach from surface from relatively
small spaces at surface reach out at an angle
subsurface, which is particularly relevant for
the retrofit. So where there's an existing building
and you might have a, maybe there's a parking
lot, maybe there's a relatively small space available
on the surface, we can reach out underneath existing
buildings and tap into the geothermal potential.
So yeah, that's the kind of technology that we've
developed to be able. to retrofit these high
-end use intensity buildings. Yeah, that's very
interesting. So when we start thinking about
the available landscape that we have underneath
of a structure, here in the Midwest, sometimes
we do have challenges with depth. We have a lot
of limestone and bedrock, particularly here in
the Midwest, but many parts of the United States.
So depth of drilling is always a concern. So
what type of depth are we looking at with your
installations? so we tend to to aim for two to
three hundred meters um i put that into feet
for you but i've forgotten but uh but yeah sort
of two to three hundred meters that's that's
at the moment our sort of sweet spot And again,
depending on the application, whether we're looking
at a cooling -dominated building or a heating
-dominated building, if it's heated -dominated,
we might want to go deeper to the deeper end
so we can try and get into that slightly higher
geothermal gradient. If it's a cooling -dominated
building, then we might want to stay a little
bit shallower so it's not quite as warm. So again,
we're just trying to leverage the right temperature
in the Earth for the right application that we're
serving on surface. Sure. Now, one of the things
that we're really struggling with, I think, here
in the United States as we're going through the
HFC phase down, here at ESCO, we spend a lot
of time doing training and education on our refrigerant
solutions. Predominantly here in the United States,
we used a lot of R410A for our refrigerant in
heat pump applications, even in our geothermal
systems. What are you seeing as dominant refrigerant
types when we're looking at some of these newer
systems? Yeah, no, that's an interesting question,
isn't it? I think that's going to be hitting
the markets wherever you are. Yes. Yeah, I mean,
I would say, yeah, even as recent as three, four,
five years ago, we'd have been in the 410, the
407, you know, the 134A kind of ballpark, those
traditional sort of HVAC refrigerants. But yeah,
now we are using and integrating. um what are
we using we're allowed for co2 so oh yeah absolutely
um for the right application um we're using propane
and butane so 290. um yeah so so again what we're
trying to do along with all parts of our system
is find the right component to fit within the
system for the right application so yeah you
know we use co2 we quite it's got its good characteristics
it's got its bad characteristics it's it can
be quite a fussy gas in terms of the temperatures
on on the secondary side that it likes um and
it's and it's high pressure you know so you've
got safety concerns to look at and then the same
with 290 so 290 where we have those would be
more in retrofit applications where we need to
reach those slightly higher secondary temperatures
because we're we're connecting to legacy systems
or the fabric's not quite as good so you can't
get the size of heat emitter that ideally you'd
want for a lower temperature so again you know
r290 is a great gas yeah but it's got its it's
got its characteristics it's obviously explosive
so you've got to deal with with the atex regulations
or yeah making it safe um and there's always
ammonia you know we haven't used ammonia a lot
again you know it's it's well used in industrial
processes But once you start to move those sorts
of gases into that sort of commercial and definitely
the residential space, you know, you've got to
be careful. You've got to be careful. For sure.
And that's what we look at here as well is, you
know, we're looking at what are those alternative
refrigerants. You know, we're going to start
seeing more of our A2L generations, our R32,
R454B. We haven't implemented high enough quantities
of R290 to be able to successfully be used in
our heat pump applications. We're looking at
that. So ASHRAE is currently studying, you know,
to see what those maximum limits are and, you
know, what is the, you know, the contact and
exposure to, you know. Consumers, end users.
And so I anticipate us to be implementing more
of the R290 and CO2 applications here in the
near future. I've got a 290 SLC pump from my
house. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. So I use that
in the domestic setting. And then, yeah, we use
that in the commercial heat pumps. So that's
very intriguing. So here in the United States,
I'm kind of a bell ringer in our industry. Trying
to, you know, work with our educators. We work
with about 1 ,400 schools across the country.
So we're trying to keep our educators current
with, you know, what's happening around the world.
And I keep saying that, you know, we're less
than two years away from residential air -to
-water R290 monoblock systems, residential heat
pump chillers. And a lot of people think that
I'm crazy. And I say, well, we're currently using
those around the world very successfully. And
so, you know. If there's another opportunity
for us to have a discussion about residential
R290 systems down the road, I would absolutely
love to do that. I'm meeting a lot of resistance
here in the United States, and I think that is
our solution. That's how the market goes, isn't
it? We have the same here. There's resistance.
There's the incumbents that don't want change.
You throw in something like 290 and you get the
whole safety fears. Yeah, it's overcoming perceptions,
but yeah, it's certainly working. I would say,
you know, we're not installing the domestic market,
but the person who installed my personal heat
pump in the home, you know, they explicitly do
290. They say it's the right gas for the application.
You know, again, that's sort of retrofitting.
So it's a retrofit. So we ripped out the gas
furnace and replaced it with a 290 heat pump.
Had to upgrade some radiators. Sure. But again,
yeah, here in the UK, it seems to be that the
refrigerant that's gaining the most traction,
I would say, in that kind of area. Yeah, I believe
that as well. You know, one of the things that
I was very attracted to when I started looking
at your company was like your carbon matrix analysis.
Can you tell me a little bit about what you're
doing in that sector? Yes. Yeah. So, I mean,
that's fascinating. I must admit, that's not
a question that I get asked often. to be quite
frank that whole system carbon content yes so
i am absolutely fascinated that you asked that
in the first place that's brilliant but so yeah
so where was that so that was yeah that was really
because back in the day when we started looking
at that transition that transition to heat pumps
yes and looking around in the market people are
saying we've got to decarbonize you've got to
get the carbon out of your heat yeah et cetera
et cetera and yeah the question is why and once
you've answered that question the question is
how so we were seeing at that time a lot of you
know a wide range of different technologies and
the same technologies saying switch to me and
your carbon content will drop by this much right
um but it was very difficult to get you know
as an engineer you try and dig into that and
look at it so well how are you doing that does
that stuff yeah where's the data how do we validate
the data absolutely where are the references
for those data points that you've picked and
you know and certainly in the uk and i'm pretty
sure it's the same in the us the regulatory figures
that we have to use when planning new systems
is very far behind our electricity market so
wind and solar have overtaken in terms of generation
so that's pulled down the carbon content of electricity
But our regulation, which is or was, because
we're reforming that a little bit better now,
but was, let's say, five years behind the market.
So when I was designing a new building now to
last 25 years into the future, I had to use regulatory
figures to prove my carbon content that were
five years out of date. Oh, wow. So we were looking
at that and thinking, right, so that's a problem
with the regulatory. But also, how do I describe
my own carbon content? because I'm sure you'll
know. So you've got grid electricity, which fluctuates
every five minutes as to what the contribution
is to that grid. You've got your heat pump, which
can vary in terms of its efficiency every five
minutes. So low -loaded, high -loaded, high COP,
low COP, and different amounts of heat. So if
it's first thing in the morning, you've got a
terrible COP at a high carbon. content off the
grid that's that's one sort of factors but then
you run it for the rest of the day you heat pump
it the rest of the day you know a lower load
higher efficiency grid carbons change you know
so there were you know three very dynamic factors
within actually working out what the carbon content
of our heat was so what we wanted to do is say
well you know can we pull all that data together
into one place into the same sort of time stamp
and then do a calculation to work out that specific
chunk of five minutes for us you know what what
heat did we generate what electricity did we
use to generate that heat what was the carbon
content of that electricity again off the grid
you know off of our standard uk grid and there
are so many grids you know again so many different
grids within grids so you know there's arguments
about about what factor you take but you know
stay into that put those all together And then
really say, right, actually, that was the carbon
that we used to generate that amount of heat,
which means our carbon content of heat was this.
And what we found, even five, ten years ago,
is that we were 50 % better than the regulatory
figures that we were using. So, yeah, since then,
we have been tracking that. So every five minutes,
we get the data from the electricity grid to
say what generators contributed. you know nuclear
wind solar gas we haven't got any uh coal anymore
on our grid in the uk so that's that's a plus
you know imports and exports from france from
europe from norway from ireland for us you know
putting those all into the into the mix as a
five minute pot and then because we operate and
maintain and optimize our systems we also get
our data so that allowed me to amalgamate them
to do the sums And then we can display that figure
on our website. We display it every five minutes.
So it changes every five minutes. So we're usually
about half hour to 45 minutes behind because
we've got to pull the data and we've got to do
the same. Got to calculate it. Yeah, absolutely.
Got to calculate it. That allows us to do a five
minute chunk, which I think really allows people
to see the sort of the dynamic nature of how
a heat pump works. So sometimes in the morning,
yeah, your COP will be three and a half. four
sometimes in the afternoon you're talking about
five five to six cop's and and yeah and the grid
fluctuates as well and then over time gathering
all of that data is allowed to amel allow us
to amalgamate it and you know and also then get
get that sort of annual average so so at the
moment our regulatory figure is somewhere in
the 225 grams of co2 mark um But through gathering
and analyzing this data, we know that our figure
right now for heat is closer to about 30 grams
of CO2 for every kilowatt hour. So, yeah, so
we can confidently say to our clients, well,
you know, this is how we've actually reduced,
you know, your carbon content. Your carbon footprint.
Yeah. Yes. As well as your energy use. Yes, exactly.
Exactly. Wow. I absolutely love that. I'm kind
of a geek and a nerd in our industry. And for
me, data is the only thing that we can use to
validate performance. And when you're using calculated
data like that, we're actually showing not only
our energy reduction, we're showing the reduction
in our carbon footprint. And so when we're together,
we can start looking at that and we can understand
our own impact for energy consumption. It's brilliant.
it's quite and again looking at it that looking
at them when you're starting to look at those
numbers and then we go back and analyze it and
say oh right there's a peak in in energy use
so yeah or there's a peak in in carbon how can
we then adjust how we would use our heat pump
you know to get us out to those periods of high
carbon or to get us out of those periods of high
cost or out of those periods of low low efficiency
so again looking at those numbers it goes allows
us to go back and analyze it so you know we can
ask ourselves what what could we have done differently
do we And again, that's why using the ground
is really special because if we want to get a
better efficiency at a certain time in the day,
then we know we need to load that ground with
energy to store and to be available back to us
at that different time when we really need it.
So again, firstly calculating that data then
allows us to analyze it and then it allows us
to make better acts, better controls, better
solutions. Yeah, better management and algorithms
for our... Controls. Wonderful. Well, Kevin Stickney,
I really appreciate your time. Where can we learn
more about this data so we can actually see some
live calculations of all of this that we've been
discussed? Yeah, you can see that on our website.
Again, because we own and operate buildings,
I can gather all the data. We anonymize it. So
I'm not telling you whose building does what,
but we gather it on our website. So that's erdaenergy
.com. If you go to our insights page and scroll
down, you can see a chart. showing the five minute
data you can see our our actual data versus a
simulated you can use either gas or oil and here
in the UK you can put yourself in the English
grid or the Welsh grid or Scottish grid so you
know you can pick different grid carbon emissions
and then keep scrolling down and you'll see how
that's tracked over time so you can do a comparison
for you know for the last month and I think the
last three years See how that's tracked. Very
cool. I love it. Yeah, I will absolutely spend
some time diving into some of your data. I encourage
everyone to take a look at the website, get a
little bit more familiar with, you know, analyzing
energy costs and consumptions. And I really appreciate
your time hanging out with us today. Well, thank
you. Thank you for the invite. Thank you for
the question. Like I said, fascinating question.
Yeah, it really is. Yeah, this is the kind of
stuff that I enjoy having conversations on, helping
people get outside of their comfort zone and
have a better understanding of our own carbon
footprint. And without data, we don't have, you
know, concise analysis. So I really appreciate
the effort that you put into that. Well, thank
you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. So
happy reading on the website. Don't track it
all day. All right. Well, thank you very much
for your time. And we appreciate you joining
us today on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast.
Thank you. Thank you. Have a great day.