Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.
This episode brought to you by Goodheart Wilcox, publisher of Modern Refrigeration and Air
Conditioning.
Learn more at g-w.com
Hello everyone, thank you for joining us once again on Did You Know?
The Esco HVAC Podcast.
So today we're spending time with Dan Bracciano, author of Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning,
published by Goodheart Wilcox, one of the bibles of the industry.
It's the book that I grew up with learning from.
I used to use a lot of content when I was doing my industrial HVAC classes.
And Dan, thank you so much for joining us, sir.
Thanks for having me.
So we've had a couple of conversations about this refrigerant transition and there's so
many things that we can talk about.
And it's just a good opportunity for us to dive a little bit deeper into what this transition
looks like, why the refrigerants are actually going to be a little bit different when we
especially talk about like replacement refrigerants.
So let's talk about the transition from like R12 and R22 into R410.
And that'll give us like a foundation of why things are going to be a little bit different
as we move from 410 into R454B and R32.
Yeah, that's a good place to start.
Those that were around like myself in the R12, R22 phase out, that was a phase out that
was going cold turkey where the EPA basically said, can't manufacture it.
It doesn't exist anymore.
Existing stocks can be utilized, but it was a pretty radical way to do it.
What they're doing now is a phase down.
So all the way out till 2037, HFCs like 410A will still be available, will still be out
there for purchase, for service.
The big thing that's going to be changing and there is a bit of a sense of urgency is
the manufacture of units is going to stop after January 1.
So whatever's out there is going to be it as far as units go.
And if you think about like that R22 transition, we at least had dry charge outdoor units.
So during that transition, we still had units that could be installed and use our choice
of refrigerant on installation.
And we will not have that with this change.
I mean, it is a phase out of refrigerant, but it is a very abrupt change of equipment.
So a lot of manufacturers have already stopped the production of some of their R410A product
lines switched over to R32.
So we're going to have like a transition period that's very different than things that we've
experienced in the past.
Yes, essentially what the EPA has done is said in air conditioning equipment, you have
to have a GWP global warming potential less than 700 or stationary equipment like domestic
refrigerators, ice makers, it's 150 GWP.
So that is going to drastically affect what equipment is coming in.
And as we were talking the other day, educators, schools, community colleges, a lot of them
don't have the equipment right now on site and they don't have the tools to train their
students.
So that's really going to have to ramp up over the next year because by the end of next
year, 2025, January 1, you're no longer going to be able to install units with HFCs, whether
that's 410A or 422B or 407C, they're just not going to be available.
It's not just 410A.
So any of the HFCs that are out there today, they have GWPs in the 1200s, 1700s, nothing
will be manufactured less than 700 or 150.
So that's going to be a drastic change in the industry that really needs to get addressed
this year.
I've been working with Dyken and other manufacturers and FieldPeace and Navtech to try to get the
word out to different community colleges, at least in my area where I can visit and
get them equipment as soon as they can, make them aware, have them put it in their budgets,
make sure that they get it in and they get the students learning the new refrigerants.
Yeah, because for those that don't understand what this transition is for equipment, that
January 1 of 2025 deadline, originally that was going to be it.
We couldn't even install them after that.
That was ratified.
We were able to add an additional 12 months sell through so the distributors could actually
get rid of the rest of their stock.
But that's already starting to diminish in many of our distributors.
We already have distributors that are starting to run out of their R410A supplies and are
starting to ship out R32 units.
Now that's not all distributors or manufacturers, but that is definitely some that I've witnessed
here in my area so that by the time we reach that January 1 of 2025, our contractors are
going to be receiving a lot of R32 and R454B equipment.
That's why we have this sense of emergency to make sure that the industry is aware that
this is not something that is coming.
This is not like a transition that's going to happen in the future.
It's already began.
And as educators, we absolutely have to start making these connections and getting this
equipment into our classrooms, getting our budgets prepared for that because some of
the prices of equipment are going up because we're adding mitigation controls to many of
our systems.
And so we need to have this technology in the classrooms now so that we can be preparing
not just our current students, but our current workforce because this is going to be new
to most of our industry.
So we have an entire industry that is going to need to have some training and awareness
in a very short window of time.
Yeah, to your point, the final rulemaking by the EPA has taken well over a year.
The good news is this time around, industry being ESCO, ACCA, ASHRAE, EHR, a lot of the
trade organizations have been able to push back against the EPA's rules.
They had some really wild stuff in there like QR codes for refrigerant cylinders that was
tossed out.
Not being able to return a, just throw out a refrigerant cylinder, return it to a recycler.
Yeah, recover the heel.
So they made some huge impact.
And the biggest one is the sell down.
So you get an extra year here so that anything that's in stock can at least get sold.
Distributors and contractors aren't stuck with units that they legally cannot install.
So you've got a year to basically purge everything out of the system.
But after that, like you said, next January is kind of like D-Day.
That's a no-no.
So you're not going to be able to sell them.
You're not going to be able to install them.
And we've got to get our students, our educators up to speed by next year.
So we've got one year to go.
Yeah, exactly.
And so this is for our residential and light commercial air conditioning and heat pumps.
Now, there are some extended dates for things like our VRV, VRF products.
And that all comes out of the technology transition rule.
So what we are here addressing today is our residential and light commercial industry
because they are being affected very quickly.
And it's not just our industry.
It's every industry that works with refrigerants.
If we look at the automotive industry, it's model year 25 that they had to be at their
150 GWP.
So all the vehicles that were being manufactured with a model year of 25 had to meet their
new requirements.
So they've already transitioned over to refrigerants like our 1234YF.
So there's a lot of education and a lot of impact that's happening across many different
sectors, many different industries right now.
I also want to just make sure that everybody doesn't get all freaked out because the automotive
is a good example, right?
Technically, the US was what was called the Kilgali Agreement, the Montreal Protocol that
started this whole process.
And the Europeans were the first to adopt it.
The United States pulled out of it about six years ago and said, we're not going to do
it.
And then the new administration came in and said, okay, we're back into the Kilgali Agreement
and we're going to phase out or phase down our HFCs.
Europe has already started that like five years ago.
The automotive industry started using HFO 1234YF back in 2011.
So it's been in your vehicles for a long time.
And the service techs have been working with it for a long time.
The nice thing about the HFOs, and I really like 1234YF, if you laid the pH chart over
in our 12 chart or 134HR, I should say, it's almost line to line.
So the pressures and temperatures that you're working with are very similar.
The same thing goes with 454B over 410A.
And so these refrigerants are going to be very similar to what you've been working with.
The only big difference is they're, quote, mildly flammable.
And with that said, they've been in your vehicle under hood for quite a while now.
Yeah, 2016 Dodge Ram.
It's 2016 and it's a 1234YF.
Yeah, so it's not something to be afraid of.
If anything, the previous transition put all sorts of refrigerants out there.
The 400 series, the 500 series, you had to worry about Clyde and all these different
blends, azeotropic blends, zeotropic blends.
Getting down to HFOs and on the small unit side, we're going to be looking at propane.
I mean, that's just the way it is.
It's just a different animal to work with.
With that said, the HFOs are going to be very similar in your evacuation, fill, charge.
Everything is going to be very similar to what we've been dealing with in the air conditioning
industry with 410A.
So I don't want to sound an alarm.
This is not going to be that dramatic.
It's going to be different, but it's not going to be something to be afraid of.
We just need to get the word out there that there is a deadline.
We've got to start transitioning.
Resistance is futile and just get it done.
I think I'm going to have to do a podcast or a social post.
Maybe this is the one.
Resistance is futile.
It really is.
It's here.
And not only is it coming through the Kigali Amendment, it's coming through the AIM Act
as well.
So the entire phase down was duplicated in the AIM Act.
So now we have a bipartisan commitment.
We have a Republican president.
We have a Democratic president on two different things.
So now we have an international treaty as well as an act of Congress.
So we're not going to change this.
Even if we went after one, it would probably take as long to counteract it as what it would
with the entire phase down.
It would take a decade.
By that point, we would almost be at the end of this phase down.
So it is here.
It is very important.
We do.
You and I mentioned we sometimes feel like we're bell ringing in the industry going,
hello, is anyone listening?
Because you have to.
It's not that you need to.
You have to know what is happening around you.
Yeah.
And I think the big thing is most instructors have to get with their management or their
board, get the funding set up.
They've got a perfect excuse to get some new units.
The way I frame it with some of the guys that I've been talking with is this is like a golden
opportunity to replace some of the old units you've got because you need to start training
your students by next year or sooner, actually, as soon as possible.
So if they tell you, well, we don't have the funds, we don't have the budget, you say,
well, then our guys are not going to be prepared in the field.
So you've got a pretty good business case to get some new units.
And like I said, a lot of the manufacturers realize this and they're cutting deals and
they're willing to work with the different schools to get the units in their hands as
quickly as possible so that they can get up to speed and start training the students.
So I look at it once again as a positive thing.
This is going to get people new equipment.
The training is going to be, they're going to redo section 608-2.
So the training is going to be a little more accurate and it's best practices.
You just same best practices that we use today.
You know, the big difference is you're going to have new vacuum pumps, new gauge sets with
the new refrigerator inside them, or if you've got an app and you just look to the app and
you're good there.
So it shouldn't be all that traumatic for people that are in the industry that follow
the current best practices anyway.
That's exactly right.
You know, you made a great point about updating the equipment in our labs because you're right.
We've been working with the same single stage equipment for 50 plus years.
We introduced two stage maybe 25 or 30 years ago.
And so now that we're making transitions, we've also had manufacturers making equipment
transitions bringing a lot more inverters into the design of things.
And so now we have the opportunity to go to our administration and go, did you know that
our entire industry is going through a transition that has already began?
I need to have some new equipment in the classroom.
I need to have some updated curriculum.
I need to make sure that I've got certifications that match this.
And so I need to address this change, this drastic change in the industry that I need
to make you aware that we are going through this and that our program is going to need
some administrative assistance.
And yeah, I don't think there's ever been as good of a time to ask for all this as there
is right now.
Yeah.
That's why one of the local schools here at community college, I've been working with
them and I told them this is a golden opportunity because they desperately would love to get
some new equipment and some new tools.
So I'm helping them put together the business case to get inverter driven heat pump with
R32.
It's perfect.
You're hitting all of the check boxes all at once and now that we've got the Department
of Energy really starting to focus on inverter driven, you know, they call them cold climate
heat pumps or high performance heat pumps.
Why not make this entire transition right now be able to upskill the industry?
Because if we do that and we have night classes for adults, now you have an opportunity for
your current workforce to come back into their school looking for updated education.
I mean, it is a win win for everyone.
If done right, there's not enough instructors to handle the influx of students and technicians
looking for education.
Yeah.
It's, it's, I think you're going to see enrollment increase and once the new 608 people are going
to have to go back and, you know, study up on the new equipment to your point, cold weather
heat pumps.
I mean, that's that the DOE's program has been extremely successful and you're seeing
applications, you know, I was originally from Michigan and we never thought of heat pumps
because it was too cold.
And now you've got heat pumps operating in Quebec and Montreal and Northern Canada.
So the days of heat pumps being a Southern area only are over long over.
And now you're going to see them with 454B, you're seeing them with R32.
So that's the future right there.
And I would advise anybody that's looking to get new equipment to focus in on that because
the days of just installing a residential air conditioner, you might as well throw in
a heat pump because it's going to be much more efficient than whatever you're replacing.
Anyway, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And if I'm a educational Institute, it is the prime opportunity to start looking at
state funding because the inflation reduction act has also provided training funds, right?
Distributed through the states.
And this is really what it's focused on.
They're focused on the technology, right?
Upskilling the industry for new technology.
And so if we're doing that at once, we're bringing in the new technology with the new
refrigerants, with the new curriculum, with the new certifications.
By the way, I'd like to throw a quick plug in while we're talking about that.
The HVAC excellence professional level heat pump installer certification.
The exam has been updated and has been approved by the Department of Energy for the energy
skilled program.
We're working with our employment readies right now as well.
So it's the entire industry making strides forward and providing you as the industry
with the resources.
Now we just have to take the initiative to go after all of these resources and opportunities.
Yeah, I agree.
Totally.
There's fun funds out there, state funds that you can tap into.
And once again, this should be viewed as an opportunity to upgrade your classes, upgrade
your equipment and embrace the transition.
Because like I said, resistance is futile.
Absolutely.
Let's spend a little bit of time, if you don't mind, talking about some of the refrigerants.
You have spent a lot of research time looking at the refrigerants that we're going through,
refrigerants that we're moving away from.
Let's talk about some of these primary ones.
We talk about this that is happening in residential like commercial with the R410A, basically
the HFC phase down and the R32 and R454B that we're going to be seeing.
Are there other industries that you're seeing that are going through significant changes
as well or other refrigerants that are going through transitions?
Yeah, I think you're going to see a lot more CO2 used.
And once again, that's been around forever.
Over 100 years.
Yeah, since the 1850s, some of the first refrigerant systems were CO2 and ammonia.
And ammonia has been around since 1800s also.
So obviously, there's experience out there in those systems.
I think you're going to see more of that.
The question becomes, when does the EPA stop?
Right now, they're taking it down to 700 for residential, 150 for small self-contained
units.
Will they stop there?
History has probably shown that no.
If they can take it lower, they'll take it lower and lower and lower.
First it was ozone depletion factor and now it's GWP.
So I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought that this is going to be the last
go-round if the Europeans or somebody else internationally comes up with something lower,
they're going to go lower.
But with that said, you can't get much lower than some of the HFOs.
So when you look at a GWP of 1 for 1, 2, 3, 4 YF, for example, the 1, 2, 3, 4 ZE, you're
just not going to get any lower.
CO2 is 0 or GWP of 1.
So you're not going to get lower than 1.
Are they going to stay at 700?
And probably not.
The good news is propane, the hydrocarbons are 3, 5 in that area and they're going to
be out there.
So are 290s already out there?
I think you were saying that Ashrae, you saw a 290 heat pump with a secondary loop.
So there's going to be some creative things out there, secondary loops where you're using
hydrocarbons like propane R290.
But eventually, I think the refrigerant industry has been extremely creative in being able
to change and adapt every time too.
So yeah, I'd like to do a shout out to our refrigerant companies, Archima, Honeywell.
They've just done an amazing job.
Every time the EPA has set a new threshold for us, they've come out with refrigerants
really quickly and validated them and got them into the field.
And like I was saying earlier, when you take a look at some of these HFOs, pressure temperature
charts are very similar to refrigerants we've used before.
So I think they've put us in a really good position with some really good products that
are not that dramatically different than what we've been working with and frankly have
less glide than some of the stuff that we were working with in the past.
So it's really quite amazing how quickly they can change and adapt and provide these refrigerants
for our industry.
We think about the amount of research that has went into creating these.
I made a post here a while back about the periodic table of refrigerants showing that
we really only work with four elements, right?
Hydrogen, carbon, fluorine, and chlorine.
And the chemical manufacturers, refrigerant manufacturers, that's really about all they
have to work with.
So they have to be very creative.
They have to be forward thinking and being prepared years ahead of time.
We're talking a decade of research that has went in or more with our HFOs before they
were even introduced into the industry.
And so going forward, we're going to see a lot of our HFO refrigerants.
We are going to see some of our HC refrigerants, but it really is an important time in our
industry.
I don't mind ringing this bell because it is going to be well worth it.
So I praise you for joining me in this effort to educate the industry and bringing the awareness
to the fact that this next decade for our industry is going to be very crucial.
This next year is going to be the most important piece of all of it.
And we all have our duties to be prepared.
So Mr. Abraciano, tell us a little bit about the current version of modern refrigeration
air conditioning, when we can expect the next revision coming out and ways that we can connect
with you or with Goodheart Wilcox.
Well, we're in our 23rd edition and modern refrigeration and air conditioning was originally
modern gas and electric refrigeration.
And it started in 1937.
So before World War II, literally the first book in the industry on the topic.
And we've revised it about every four years since then.
We just recently came out with the 23rd edition, 91 years in the making.
Man, that's fantastic.
But we were continuously revising it.
As you know, like with this refrigerant transition, the industry is continuously changing.
So it's got to be continually updated.
So it's a project of my passion that I've been doing my whole life.
I originally started in the field and then became an author.
And I enjoy working on it.
And the latest edition, we've got all the AIM Act and all the Kogali agreement and the
phase down of HFCs, all that's in there, all the A2L information's in there.
So we keep it up to date nonstop.
And then throughout the revision process, between the major revisions, we're always
updating the text when a new printing comes out.
So it's a continuous job.
It never ends.
Yeah.
Continual improvements on a wonderful asset to our industry.
Well, thank you.
And so ways that we can connect with Goodheart Wilcox?
You can visit the GW website.
And once again, we're always at the ESCO show.
Absolutely.
So we'll be there in February, I think it is.
In March.
Yes.
March in Las Vegas.
So just stop by the booths, say hi.
I always have a stack of cards.
And I encourage people to come to the booth and meet me personally, because I'm usually
there.
And as I was explaining to you before, we have a list of reviewers, about 30 industry
professionals, everything from refrigerant to equipment manufacturers provide input into
the book.
Not just a couple of people write it, but I like to think of it as a team of about 30
people.
Most of them are educators in the field and technicians, friends of mine.
So we get together usually once a year and go over things.
We now started doing web meetings, etc.
But I'm always open for additional reviewers and help, and so it's a team effort.
Like I said earlier to you the other day, nobody's a quote expert in everything that's
in a 1400 page book.
It's a lot of material, it's a lot of different areas, and it takes a lot of people to keep
it up to date and continuously improve.
Yeah, I can absolutely understand that.
Well, I sure appreciate you joining us today.
I will be definitely seeing you at the National HVACR Education Conference.
I will be there with my 23rd edition of Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning, and hopefully
I can get an author's signature inside of that.
Oh, absolutely.
Not a problem.
Well, thank you for joining us.
We appreciate you being here, and we will see you all soon on Did You Know the ESCO
HVAC Show.
And we thank you for joining the podcast.