1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,480 Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry. 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,480 This episode brought to you by Goodheart Wilcox, publisher of Modern Refrigeration and Air 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:15,480 Conditioning. 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:22,760 Learn more at g-w.com 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,520 Hello everyone, thank you for joining us once again on Did You Know? 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,760 The Esco HVAC Podcast. 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:33,280 So today we're spending time with Dan Bracciano, author of Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning, 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,600 published by Goodheart Wilcox, one of the bibles of the industry. 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,240 It's the book that I grew up with learning from. 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,000 I used to use a lot of content when I was doing my industrial HVAC classes. 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,400 And Dan, thank you so much for joining us, sir. 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,620 Thanks for having me. 13 00:00:49,620 --> 00:00:54,920 So we've had a couple of conversations about this refrigerant transition and there's so 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,800 many things that we can talk about. 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:03,040 And it's just a good opportunity for us to dive a little bit deeper into what this transition 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:08,120 looks like, why the refrigerants are actually going to be a little bit different when we 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,080 especially talk about like replacement refrigerants. 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:17,840 So let's talk about the transition from like R12 and R22 into R410. 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,520 And that'll give us like a foundation of why things are going to be a little bit different 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,200 as we move from 410 into R454B and R32. 21 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,640 Yeah, that's a good place to start. 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:37,440 Those that were around like myself in the R12, R22 phase out, that was a phase out that 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,920 was going cold turkey where the EPA basically said, can't manufacture it. 24 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,720 It doesn't exist anymore. 25 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:51,860 Existing stocks can be utilized, but it was a pretty radical way to do it. 26 00:01:51,860 --> 00:01:55,040 What they're doing now is a phase down. 27 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:02,440 So all the way out till 2037, HFCs like 410A will still be available, will still be out 28 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,640 there for purchase, for service. 29 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,560 The big thing that's going to be changing and there is a bit of a sense of urgency is 30 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,720 the manufacture of units is going to stop after January 1. 31 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:22,000 So whatever's out there is going to be it as far as units go. 32 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:28,520 And if you think about like that R22 transition, we at least had dry charge outdoor units. 33 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,760 So during that transition, we still had units that could be installed and use our choice 34 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,840 of refrigerant on installation. 35 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,440 And we will not have that with this change. 36 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:44,920 I mean, it is a phase out of refrigerant, but it is a very abrupt change of equipment. 37 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:49,480 So a lot of manufacturers have already stopped the production of some of their R410A product 38 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,200 lines switched over to R32. 39 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,640 So we're going to have like a transition period that's very different than things that we've 40 00:02:56,640 --> 00:02:58,640 experienced in the past. 41 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:03,720 Yes, essentially what the EPA has done is said in air conditioning equipment, you have 42 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:11,200 to have a GWP global warming potential less than 700 or stationary equipment like domestic 43 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,000 refrigerators, ice makers, it's 150 GWP. 44 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,680 So that is going to drastically affect what equipment is coming in. 45 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:28,960 And as we were talking the other day, educators, schools, community colleges, a lot of them 46 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,480 don't have the equipment right now on site and they don't have the tools to train their 47 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:34,640 students. 48 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:40,600 So that's really going to have to ramp up over the next year because by the end of next 49 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:49,600 year, 2025, January 1, you're no longer going to be able to install units with HFCs, whether 50 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:56,720 that's 410A or 422B or 407C, they're just not going to be available. 51 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,980 It's not just 410A. 52 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:06,600 So any of the HFCs that are out there today, they have GWPs in the 1200s, 1700s, nothing 53 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,360 will be manufactured less than 700 or 150. 54 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:18,360 So that's going to be a drastic change in the industry that really needs to get addressed 55 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,080 this year. 56 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:26,920 I've been working with Dyken and other manufacturers and FieldPeace and Navtech to try to get the 57 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:33,560 word out to different community colleges, at least in my area where I can visit and 58 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,120 get them equipment as soon as they can, make them aware, have them put it in their budgets, 59 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:44,600 make sure that they get it in and they get the students learning the new refrigerants. 60 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:51,280 Yeah, because for those that don't understand what this transition is for equipment, that 61 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:56,800 January 1 of 2025 deadline, originally that was going to be it. 62 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,760 We couldn't even install them after that. 63 00:04:58,760 --> 00:04:59,760 That was ratified. 64 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,320 We were able to add an additional 12 months sell through so the distributors could actually 65 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,600 get rid of the rest of their stock. 66 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,120 But that's already starting to diminish in many of our distributors. 67 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:16,000 We already have distributors that are starting to run out of their R410A supplies and are 68 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,840 starting to ship out R32 units. 69 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:22,120 Now that's not all distributors or manufacturers, but that is definitely some that I've witnessed 70 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:30,400 here in my area so that by the time we reach that January 1 of 2025, our contractors are 71 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,880 going to be receiving a lot of R32 and R454B equipment. 72 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,600 That's why we have this sense of emergency to make sure that the industry is aware that 73 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,320 this is not something that is coming. 74 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,140 This is not like a transition that's going to happen in the future. 75 00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:47,320 It's already began. 76 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,680 And as educators, we absolutely have to start making these connections and getting this 77 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,760 equipment into our classrooms, getting our budgets prepared for that because some of 78 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,240 the prices of equipment are going up because we're adding mitigation controls to many of 79 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:01,560 our systems. 80 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:07,320 And so we need to have this technology in the classrooms now so that we can be preparing 81 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,960 not just our current students, but our current workforce because this is going to be new 82 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,560 to most of our industry. 83 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:20,480 So we have an entire industry that is going to need to have some training and awareness 84 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,920 in a very short window of time. 85 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:30,360 Yeah, to your point, the final rulemaking by the EPA has taken well over a year. 86 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:39,000 The good news is this time around, industry being ESCO, ACCA, ASHRAE, EHR, a lot of the 87 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,520 trade organizations have been able to push back against the EPA's rules. 88 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,880 They had some really wild stuff in there like QR codes for refrigerant cylinders that was 89 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,040 tossed out. 90 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,880 Not being able to return a, just throw out a refrigerant cylinder, return it to a recycler. 91 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,000 Yeah, recover the heel. 92 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,880 So they made some huge impact. 93 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,040 And the biggest one is the sell down. 94 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:12,560 So you get an extra year here so that anything that's in stock can at least get sold. 95 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:18,260 Distributors and contractors aren't stuck with units that they legally cannot install. 96 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:22,240 So you've got a year to basically purge everything out of the system. 97 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,520 But after that, like you said, next January is kind of like D-Day. 98 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,320 That's a no-no. 99 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:29,640 So you're not going to be able to sell them. 100 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,920 You're not going to be able to install them. 101 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,880 And we've got to get our students, our educators up to speed by next year. 102 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,880 So we've got one year to go. 103 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:39,880 Yeah, exactly. 104 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,240 And so this is for our residential and light commercial air conditioning and heat pumps. 105 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,280 Now, there are some extended dates for things like our VRV, VRF products. 106 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,080 And that all comes out of the technology transition rule. 107 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:57,400 So what we are here addressing today is our residential and light commercial industry 108 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,300 because they are being affected very quickly. 109 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:01,980 And it's not just our industry. 110 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:04,160 It's every industry that works with refrigerants. 111 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:09,720 If we look at the automotive industry, it's model year 25 that they had to be at their 112 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,400 150 GWP. 113 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:17,080 So all the vehicles that were being manufactured with a model year of 25 had to meet their 114 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:18,080 new requirements. 115 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:23,200 So they've already transitioned over to refrigerants like our 1234YF. 116 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:29,240 So there's a lot of education and a lot of impact that's happening across many different 117 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,040 sectors, many different industries right now. 118 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:37,800 I also want to just make sure that everybody doesn't get all freaked out because the automotive 119 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,000 is a good example, right? 120 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,080 Technically, the US was what was called the Kilgali Agreement, the Montreal Protocol that 121 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,200 started this whole process. 122 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,800 And the Europeans were the first to adopt it. 123 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,960 The United States pulled out of it about six years ago and said, we're not going to do 124 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:55,960 it. 125 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,200 And then the new administration came in and said, okay, we're back into the Kilgali Agreement 126 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,400 and we're going to phase out or phase down our HFCs. 127 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,840 Europe has already started that like five years ago. 128 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,880 The automotive industry started using HFO 1234YF back in 2011. 129 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,520 So it's been in your vehicles for a long time. 130 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,040 And the service techs have been working with it for a long time. 131 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:29,560 The nice thing about the HFOs, and I really like 1234YF, if you laid the pH chart over 132 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:35,600 in our 12 chart or 134HR, I should say, it's almost line to line. 133 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,400 So the pressures and temperatures that you're working with are very similar. 134 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:44,400 The same thing goes with 454B over 410A. 135 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,960 And so these refrigerants are going to be very similar to what you've been working with. 136 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,420 The only big difference is they're, quote, mildly flammable. 137 00:09:52,420 --> 00:09:58,600 And with that said, they've been in your vehicle under hood for quite a while now. 138 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,360 Yeah, 2016 Dodge Ram. 139 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,320 It's 2016 and it's a 1234YF. 140 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,840 Yeah, so it's not something to be afraid of. 141 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:14,000 If anything, the previous transition put all sorts of refrigerants out there. 142 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:20,120 The 400 series, the 500 series, you had to worry about Clyde and all these different 143 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,040 blends, azeotropic blends, zeotropic blends. 144 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:31,520 Getting down to HFOs and on the small unit side, we're going to be looking at propane. 145 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,960 I mean, that's just the way it is. 146 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,160 It's just a different animal to work with. 147 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:44,620 With that said, the HFOs are going to be very similar in your evacuation, fill, charge. 148 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:49,520 Everything is going to be very similar to what we've been dealing with in the air conditioning 149 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,520 industry with 410A. 150 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,120 So I don't want to sound an alarm. 151 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,880 This is not going to be that dramatic. 152 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:04,080 It's going to be different, but it's not going to be something to be afraid of. 153 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,240 We just need to get the word out there that there is a deadline. 154 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,960 We've got to start transitioning. 155 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,360 Resistance is futile and just get it done. 156 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:19,480 I think I'm going to have to do a podcast or a social post. 157 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,140 Maybe this is the one. 158 00:11:21,140 --> 00:11:22,140 Resistance is futile. 159 00:11:22,140 --> 00:11:23,460 It really is. 160 00:11:23,460 --> 00:11:24,600 It's here. 161 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,280 And not only is it coming through the Kigali Amendment, it's coming through the AIM Act 162 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,280 as well. 163 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,480 So the entire phase down was duplicated in the AIM Act. 164 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,540 So now we have a bipartisan commitment. 165 00:11:36,540 --> 00:11:38,860 We have a Republican president. 166 00:11:38,860 --> 00:11:42,000 We have a Democratic president on two different things. 167 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:48,240 So now we have an international treaty as well as an act of Congress. 168 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,560 So we're not going to change this. 169 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:56,720 Even if we went after one, it would probably take as long to counteract it as what it would 170 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,720 with the entire phase down. 171 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,560 It would take a decade. 172 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,360 By that point, we would almost be at the end of this phase down. 173 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,280 So it is here. 174 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:05,280 It is very important. 175 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,280 We do. 176 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,960 You and I mentioned we sometimes feel like we're bell ringing in the industry going, 177 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,740 hello, is anyone listening? 178 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:12,740 Because you have to. 179 00:12:12,740 --> 00:12:14,120 It's not that you need to. 180 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,680 You have to know what is happening around you. 181 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:18,680 Yeah. 182 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:25,400 And I think the big thing is most instructors have to get with their management or their 183 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,440 board, get the funding set up. 184 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,920 They've got a perfect excuse to get some new units. 185 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:37,120 The way I frame it with some of the guys that I've been talking with is this is like a golden 186 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:42,360 opportunity to replace some of the old units you've got because you need to start training 187 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:47,240 your students by next year or sooner, actually, as soon as possible. 188 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,160 So if they tell you, well, we don't have the funds, we don't have the budget, you say, 189 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,560 well, then our guys are not going to be prepared in the field. 190 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:57,160 So you've got a pretty good business case to get some new units. 191 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:03,320 And like I said, a lot of the manufacturers realize this and they're cutting deals and 192 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,620 they're willing to work with the different schools to get the units in their hands as 193 00:13:08,620 --> 00:13:13,620 quickly as possible so that they can get up to speed and start training the students. 194 00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:17,320 So I look at it once again as a positive thing. 195 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,640 This is going to get people new equipment. 196 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,560 The training is going to be, they're going to redo section 608-2. 197 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:30,120 So the training is going to be a little more accurate and it's best practices. 198 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,240 You just same best practices that we use today. 199 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:40,160 You know, the big difference is you're going to have new vacuum pumps, new gauge sets with 200 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,720 the new refrigerator inside them, or if you've got an app and you just look to the app and 201 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,280 you're good there. 202 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:53,280 So it shouldn't be all that traumatic for people that are in the industry that follow 203 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,000 the current best practices anyway. 204 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,000 That's exactly right. 205 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:03,480 You know, you made a great point about updating the equipment in our labs because you're right. 206 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,160 We've been working with the same single stage equipment for 50 plus years. 207 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,120 We introduced two stage maybe 25 or 30 years ago. 208 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,960 And so now that we're making transitions, we've also had manufacturers making equipment 209 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,720 transitions bringing a lot more inverters into the design of things. 210 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,420 And so now we have the opportunity to go to our administration and go, did you know that 211 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:29,560 our entire industry is going through a transition that has already began? 212 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,960 I need to have some new equipment in the classroom. 213 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,880 I need to have some updated curriculum. 214 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,040 I need to make sure that I've got certifications that match this. 215 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:46,920 And so I need to address this change, this drastic change in the industry that I need 216 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,480 to make you aware that we are going through this and that our program is going to need 217 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:52,680 some administrative assistance. 218 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,720 And yeah, I don't think there's ever been as good of a time to ask for all this as there 219 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,280 is right now. 220 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,280 Yeah. 221 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,920 That's why one of the local schools here at community college, I've been working with 222 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:12,360 them and I told them this is a golden opportunity because they desperately would love to get 223 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,660 some new equipment and some new tools. 224 00:15:15,660 --> 00:15:22,400 So I'm helping them put together the business case to get inverter driven heat pump with 225 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,400 R32. 226 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,400 It's perfect. 227 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:31,200 You're hitting all of the check boxes all at once and now that we've got the Department 228 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,620 of Energy really starting to focus on inverter driven, you know, they call them cold climate 229 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:37,820 heat pumps or high performance heat pumps. 230 00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:43,280 Why not make this entire transition right now be able to upskill the industry? 231 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:48,980 Because if we do that and we have night classes for adults, now you have an opportunity for 232 00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:54,840 your current workforce to come back into their school looking for updated education. 233 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,120 I mean, it is a win win for everyone. 234 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:03,600 If done right, there's not enough instructors to handle the influx of students and technicians 235 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,200 looking for education. 236 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:06,200 Yeah. 237 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,200 Yeah. 238 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:14,760 It's, it's, I think you're going to see enrollment increase and once the new 608 people are going 239 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:21,120 to have to go back and, you know, study up on the new equipment to your point, cold weather 240 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,120 heat pumps. 241 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:27,640 I mean, that's that the DOE's program has been extremely successful and you're seeing 242 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:33,280 applications, you know, I was originally from Michigan and we never thought of heat pumps 243 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,520 because it was too cold. 244 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:40,520 And now you've got heat pumps operating in Quebec and Montreal and Northern Canada. 245 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:48,760 So the days of heat pumps being a Southern area only are over long over. 246 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,880 And now you're going to see them with 454B, you're seeing them with R32. 247 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,840 So that's the future right there. 248 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:04,160 And I would advise anybody that's looking to get new equipment to focus in on that because 249 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:09,720 the days of just installing a residential air conditioner, you might as well throw in 250 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,000 a heat pump because it's going to be much more efficient than whatever you're replacing. 251 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,000 Anyway, absolutely. 252 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Absolutely. 253 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:22,840 And if I'm a educational Institute, it is the prime opportunity to start looking at 254 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:30,800 state funding because the inflation reduction act has also provided training funds, right? 255 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,480 Distributed through the states. 256 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,080 And this is really what it's focused on. 257 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,600 They're focused on the technology, right? 258 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,040 Upskilling the industry for new technology. 259 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,200 And so if we're doing that at once, we're bringing in the new technology with the new 260 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,120 refrigerants, with the new curriculum, with the new certifications. 261 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:50,080 By the way, I'd like to throw a quick plug in while we're talking about that. 262 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,240 The HVAC excellence professional level heat pump installer certification. 263 00:17:54,240 --> 00:18:00,360 The exam has been updated and has been approved by the Department of Energy for the energy 264 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:01,360 skilled program. 265 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,760 We're working with our employment readies right now as well. 266 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:11,840 So it's the entire industry making strides forward and providing you as the industry 267 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:12,840 with the resources. 268 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:18,960 Now we just have to take the initiative to go after all of these resources and opportunities. 269 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,000 Yeah, I agree. 270 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,040 Totally. 271 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:28,640 There's fun funds out there, state funds that you can tap into. 272 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:35,600 And once again, this should be viewed as an opportunity to upgrade your classes, upgrade 273 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,640 your equipment and embrace the transition. 274 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,640 Because like I said, resistance is futile. 275 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,640 Absolutely. 276 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:50,960 Let's spend a little bit of time, if you don't mind, talking about some of the refrigerants. 277 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:56,440 You have spent a lot of research time looking at the refrigerants that we're going through, 278 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,160 refrigerants that we're moving away from. 279 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,320 Let's talk about some of these primary ones. 280 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:07,880 We talk about this that is happening in residential like commercial with the R410A, basically 281 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:14,200 the HFC phase down and the R32 and R454B that we're going to be seeing. 282 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,960 Are there other industries that you're seeing that are going through significant changes 283 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,920 as well or other refrigerants that are going through transitions? 284 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,640 Yeah, I think you're going to see a lot more CO2 used. 285 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,040 And once again, that's been around forever. 286 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:30,040 Over 100 years. 287 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:36,480 Yeah, since the 1850s, some of the first refrigerant systems were CO2 and ammonia. 288 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,320 And ammonia has been around since 1800s also. 289 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:46,320 So obviously, there's experience out there in those systems. 290 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,980 I think you're going to see more of that. 291 00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,760 The question becomes, when does the EPA stop? 292 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:57,640 Right now, they're taking it down to 700 for residential, 150 for small self-contained 293 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,160 units. 294 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,160 Will they stop there? 295 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,800 History has probably shown that no. 296 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,400 If they can take it lower, they'll take it lower and lower and lower. 297 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:12,120 First it was ozone depletion factor and now it's GWP. 298 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:20,120 So I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought that this is going to be the last 299 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:25,800 go-round if the Europeans or somebody else internationally comes up with something lower, 300 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,360 they're going to go lower. 301 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,240 But with that said, you can't get much lower than some of the HFOs. 302 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:41,880 So when you look at a GWP of 1 for 1, 2, 3, 4 YF, for example, the 1, 2, 3, 4 ZE, you're 303 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,680 just not going to get any lower. 304 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,840 CO2 is 0 or GWP of 1. 305 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,400 So you're not going to get lower than 1. 306 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,400 Are they going to stay at 700? 307 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,880 And probably not. 308 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:05,400 The good news is propane, the hydrocarbons are 3, 5 in that area and they're going to 309 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,400 be out there. 310 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,440 So are 290s already out there? 311 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:16,400 I think you were saying that Ashrae, you saw a 290 heat pump with a secondary loop. 312 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:22,800 So there's going to be some creative things out there, secondary loops where you're using 313 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,160 hydrocarbons like propane R290. 314 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:34,360 But eventually, I think the refrigerant industry has been extremely creative in being able 315 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:38,240 to change and adapt every time too. 316 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:45,880 So yeah, I'd like to do a shout out to our refrigerant companies, Archima, Honeywell. 317 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,680 They've just done an amazing job. 318 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:53,360 Every time the EPA has set a new threshold for us, they've come out with refrigerants 319 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:58,520 really quickly and validated them and got them into the field. 320 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,800 And like I was saying earlier, when you take a look at some of these HFOs, pressure temperature 321 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,380 charts are very similar to refrigerants we've used before. 322 00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:14,240 So I think they've put us in a really good position with some really good products that 323 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,520 are not that dramatically different than what we've been working with and frankly have 324 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,000 less glide than some of the stuff that we were working with in the past. 325 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:33,680 So it's really quite amazing how quickly they can change and adapt and provide these refrigerants 326 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,920 for our industry. 327 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:41,120 We think about the amount of research that has went into creating these. 328 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:45,320 I made a post here a while back about the periodic table of refrigerants showing that 329 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,720 we really only work with four elements, right? 330 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,960 Hydrogen, carbon, fluorine, and chlorine. 331 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,800 And the chemical manufacturers, refrigerant manufacturers, that's really about all they 332 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:58,800 have to work with. 333 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,840 So they have to be very creative. 334 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,040 They have to be forward thinking and being prepared years ahead of time. 335 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,360 We're talking a decade of research that has went in or more with our HFOs before they 336 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,200 were even introduced into the industry. 337 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,720 And so going forward, we're going to see a lot of our HFO refrigerants. 338 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,720 We are going to see some of our HC refrigerants, but it really is an important time in our 339 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:23,720 industry. 340 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,680 I don't mind ringing this bell because it is going to be well worth it. 341 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,440 So I praise you for joining me in this effort to educate the industry and bringing the awareness 342 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,600 to the fact that this next decade for our industry is going to be very crucial. 343 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,320 This next year is going to be the most important piece of all of it. 344 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,360 And we all have our duties to be prepared. 345 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:49,960 So Mr. Abraciano, tell us a little bit about the current version of modern refrigeration 346 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,960 air conditioning, when we can expect the next revision coming out and ways that we can connect 347 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,960 with you or with Goodheart Wilcox. 348 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:05,120 Well, we're in our 23rd edition and modern refrigeration and air conditioning was originally 349 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,920 modern gas and electric refrigeration. 350 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,300 And it started in 1937. 351 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:19,720 So before World War II, literally the first book in the industry on the topic. 352 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,040 And we've revised it about every four years since then. 353 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:30,440 We just recently came out with the 23rd edition, 91 years in the making. 354 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:31,680 Man, that's fantastic. 355 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,880 But we were continuously revising it. 356 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:41,040 As you know, like with this refrigerant transition, the industry is continuously changing. 357 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,480 So it's got to be continually updated. 358 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:49,960 So it's a project of my passion that I've been doing my whole life. 359 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,800 I originally started in the field and then became an author. 360 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,840 And I enjoy working on it. 361 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,440 And the latest edition, we've got all the AIM Act and all the Kogali agreement and the 362 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,660 phase down of HFCs, all that's in there, all the A2L information's in there. 363 00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:14,040 So we keep it up to date nonstop. 364 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,900 And then throughout the revision process, between the major revisions, we're always 365 00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:21,560 updating the text when a new printing comes out. 366 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,280 So it's a continuous job. 367 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,160 It never ends. 368 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,480 Yeah. 369 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,000 Continual improvements on a wonderful asset to our industry. 370 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Well, thank you. 371 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,960 And so ways that we can connect with Goodheart Wilcox? 372 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,680 You can visit the GW website. 373 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,560 And once again, we're always at the ESCO show. 374 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:48,560 Absolutely. 375 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,240 So we'll be there in February, I think it is. 376 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,240 In March. 377 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Yes. 378 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,000 March in Las Vegas. 379 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,560 So just stop by the booths, say hi. 380 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,640 I always have a stack of cards. 381 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:08,440 And I encourage people to come to the booth and meet me personally, because I'm usually 382 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,360 there. 383 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:16,400 And as I was explaining to you before, we have a list of reviewers, about 30 industry 384 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:23,520 professionals, everything from refrigerant to equipment manufacturers provide input into 385 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,600 the book. 386 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,200 Not just a couple of people write it, but I like to think of it as a team of about 30 387 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:32,200 people. 388 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:40,880 Most of them are educators in the field and technicians, friends of mine. 389 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,680 So we get together usually once a year and go over things. 390 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,920 We now started doing web meetings, etc. 391 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:57,480 But I'm always open for additional reviewers and help, and so it's a team effort. 392 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:03,520 Like I said earlier to you the other day, nobody's a quote expert in everything that's 393 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,360 in a 1400 page book. 394 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:13,320 It's a lot of material, it's a lot of different areas, and it takes a lot of people to keep 395 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,120 it up to date and continuously improve. 396 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:20,000 Yeah, I can absolutely understand that. 397 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,280 Well, I sure appreciate you joining us today. 398 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,760 I will be definitely seeing you at the National HVACR Education Conference. 399 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,800 I will be there with my 23rd edition of Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning, and hopefully 400 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,040 I can get an author's signature inside of that. 401 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,040 Oh, absolutely. 402 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,800 Not a problem. 403 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,480 Well, thank you for joining us. 404 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,840 We appreciate you being here, and we will see you all soon on Did You Know the ESCO 405 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,840 HVAC Show. 406 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,200 And we thank you for joining the podcast.