1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,080 Tales from the trenches, stories forged in the fires of experience. 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:14,320 This episode recorded live at the 2024 National HVACR Education Conference. 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,760 Learn more about the education conference at escogroup.org. 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,360 All right, everybody. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,160 Thank you so much for joining us once again on Did You Know the ESCO? 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,160 HVAC Podcast. 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,360 So we're spending time here at the National HVACR Education Conference, and we are going 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,680 to spend a little bit of time diving into some ECM troubleshooting, and we're going 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,560 to set you up for a class that we're going to have with Chris Mahali here. 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:41,560 Yay. 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,960 And I encourage everyone to hop in and take a look at it. 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,880 We'll, we'll, we'll cue you in for some pre-recorded classes that we had that Chris 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,220 and I did covering a variety of ECM topics and the evolution. 14 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:57,680 But we wanted to spend a little bit of time just bringing some awareness to changes that 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:58,680 we've seen in the industry. 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:00:59,680 So welcome, guys. 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,060 Glad to have you all introduce yourselves as we go through and let's dive on in. 18 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:04,060 My name's Dirk Nauman. 19 00:01:04,060 --> 00:01:08,120 I'm with HVAC Simulator and enjoying the HVAC excellence. 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,560 Hey, I'm Jim Foltz with Copeland Light Rogers. 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Great show. 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,000 Appreciate everything Clifton and the team's putting on here. 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,040 Chris Mahali with Regal Rexnard supporting the brand Genta Motors. 24 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:21,100 All right, guys. 25 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:25,980 So a question got brought up amongst yourselves and let's dive a little bit deeper and kind 26 00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:27,760 of explore some of the interests you had. 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:28,760 All right. 28 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,280 Well, I'll start. 29 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:37,280 Just a little bit of a history behind how the three of us are together here at a podcast. 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:44,440 About a year and a half ago, White Rogers created a universal board that would do both 31 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,760 PSC motors as well as ECMXs or X13s. 32 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,440 And it's been a really good board. 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:58,520 Was sharing it with Dirk and saying, hey, that would be a great addition to the HVAC 34 00:01:58,520 --> 00:01:59,520 Simulator. 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:00,520 Absolutely. 36 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:01,520 Yeah. 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,960 And so we got together and I sent him a board and I'm going to pass the mic over to him 38 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,000 to let him share what happened next. 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,000 Yeah. 40 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,640 So in the creation of the HVAC Simulator with the universal board, I put the board on, wrote 41 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:19,560 the program and then it doesn't work. 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,480 So I'm sitting there with my meter trying to figure it out and I'm like, this board 43 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,800 does not work. 44 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,400 I send an email to Jim and I say, Jim, what'd you send me here? 45 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:29,400 Did you send me a lemon? 46 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:30,400 What is this? 47 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,820 And so I can't figure this out. 48 00:02:32,820 --> 00:02:37,800 So then I sent it to Jim and he talked to his engineers and said, hey, it's not working. 49 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,320 The engineer said, did you put it on a real furnace? 50 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,460 And I'm like, all right, here we go. 51 00:02:42,460 --> 00:02:43,460 And the answer was no. 52 00:02:43,460 --> 00:02:45,680 I put it on the real furnace and it worked. 53 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,100 I'm just like, all right, what's going on here? 54 00:02:48,100 --> 00:02:55,440 I found out that ECM motors, X13 constant torque ECM motors, they accept a 10 volt DC. 55 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:01,280 My meter was set to 24 volt AC because my mindset was the control signal is always 24 56 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:02,560 volt AC. 57 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,800 So the logic here is if you don't know how something works, you cannot fix it. 58 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,560 So I wasn't able to fix it. 59 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,500 So I'm going to pass it to Chris. 60 00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:13,780 Actually before that. 61 00:03:13,780 --> 00:03:22,320 So I got the ECM motor out or I pulled out the the GenTech tech guide and I'm started 62 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:28,000 looking and there's a one liner in there that says accepts 10 volts DC. 63 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Yes. 64 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,100 So yeah, Chris, well, I'm just going to clean up a couple of things because this is not 65 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:35,480 I mean, when you're recording, but some people might be listening. 66 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,400 So when we say X13, we haven't made X13 for a little while. 67 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,960 The names have changed, but we're talking about constant torque ECM motors, most identifiable, 68 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,560 identifiable by the nine pin plug usually says CLGN across the top of the plug. 69 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,360 One, two, three, four, five across the bottom. 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,760 It'll make it easier for everyone to associate that motor. 71 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,240 We're also not the only ones that make it, you know, so but but everyone's using that 72 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,380 same identifiable nine pin plug. 73 00:03:59,380 --> 00:04:01,200 So that's the motor we're talking about. 74 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,760 And as you said, traditionally, it's been built and still today is most widely built 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:11,160 with 24 volt speed taps for 24 volts of taps one through five motor changes speeds based 76 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,000 on how the manufacturer programed it. 77 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,400 So here's some of the hiccups. 78 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,080 One the outside of the motor has not changed. 79 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,020 Nothing about the way the motor looks has changed. 80 00:04:20,020 --> 00:04:23,080 So we've offered it in PWM mode. 81 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,240 We now offer it in what's called a nine speed mode. 82 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:31,000 And both of those modes of operation use DC voltage to energize the taps one one through 83 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,040 five or just tap one for PWM. 84 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,820 Now again, so if the technician is just looking at the motor, there's nothing identifiable 85 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:39,820 about the motor. 86 00:04:39,820 --> 00:04:41,960 In your case, you were you got kind of set up on this. 87 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,200 In your case, you were just given a motor. 88 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,640 There's all that programming change happens inside the motor and the microprocessor. 89 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,100 There's no way for you to know what that motor is looking to accept. 90 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:56,960 But another another challenge and this is kind of a great topic because I'm talking 91 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:57,960 about it today. 92 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:58,960 Right. 93 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,700 And we just recorded it, like you said. 94 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:05,360 But you know, technicians think that these motors don't change. 95 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:06,360 Right. 96 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,520 They learn one thing and OK, I'll just apply. 97 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:08,520 I know this plug. 98 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:09,520 I know what this is. 99 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:10,800 I'm going to apply that forever. 100 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,360 And I do want to I don't want to I don't want to. 101 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,360 Oh, my God. 102 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,360 The simplest motor just changed. 103 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,360 Now the world's coming to an end. 104 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,520 So I would say 75 to 80 percent of these motors that are still being used by OEMs today are 105 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,920 still used with 24 volt speed taps. 106 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,480 It's a 24 volts AC speed tap. 107 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,360 So it is a small amount of OEMs that have chosen to use the PWM or the nine speed motor. 108 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,200 And they're doing that so that they can reduce skews. 109 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Right. 110 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,880 And they're using a wider breadth of operating range so they can handle a wider unit range 111 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,080 with it. 112 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:47,560 But so really what happened is five, ten years ago, we started offering PWM first and PWM 113 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,780 signal is based off of a DC voltage creating a square wave. 114 00:05:50,780 --> 00:05:51,960 Which stands for? 115 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Pulse width modulation. 116 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,300 Thank you very much. 117 00:05:55,300 --> 00:06:02,880 So and three years ago, we started offering nine speed mode and that uses all five pins, 118 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,920 but it's using DC voltage as well. 119 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,960 So here's the easiest way and I think this is probably of the most value for the people 120 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,400 that are listening, the technicians in the field. 121 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,400 If you see the constant torque motor wired back to the board and at the board those wires 122 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:23,500 are landing on heat, cool and fan, it's almost 100 percent going to be a 24 volt AC controlled 123 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:26,740 motor with multiple speed taps programmed into the motor. 124 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:31,800 If you see that all five of those taps on the motor brought back to the OEM board plug 125 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,920 to plug, there's no heat cool fan taps, that's your clue. 126 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:36,920 Something's going on here. 127 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:37,920 Better get in the book. 128 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,280 Find out if we're using DC voltage. 129 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,720 For PWM, so we only do PWM on pin one. 130 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,600 That's numbered number one right on the motor. 131 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,980 So if you see one wire in pin one, again, going straight back to the board with plug 132 00:06:48,980 --> 00:06:51,200 to plug, no heat cool fan. 133 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:52,200 Absolutely. 134 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:53,200 PWM DC voltage. 135 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:54,200 PWM, right. 136 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,040 And I'll just say one more thing because I've been talking too long and somebody else should 137 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,040 get in. 138 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,920 In PWM mode, we also do where the OEM can get some feedback information. 139 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,340 So even though they're only using pin one to operate the motor, there may be two other 140 00:07:06,340 --> 00:07:12,340 pins powered on our motors, likely four and five, where they're powering four and five 141 00:07:12,340 --> 00:07:14,640 is sending some information back to their board. 142 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:21,500 And so one last thing I know I said, so now these constant torque motors operate and they 143 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:25,340 adjust as far as airflow adjustments, very similar to the variable speed motors, which 144 00:07:25,340 --> 00:07:28,600 have been around forever and most contractors are familiar with, right? 145 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,660 So I'm going to make no adjustments on these DC controlled motors at the motor. 146 00:07:32,660 --> 00:07:36,440 I'm going to be adjusting dip switches and I'm going to need to go into the manual to 147 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,140 find out the diagnostic values, which will typically be DC at the motor. 148 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:45,200 Based on the OEM programming, because it could be a variety of different voltage positions 149 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,360 or ranges depending on where it was designed at. 150 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,760 It actually could be, it could be a nine volt value or an 18 volt value. 151 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,520 It could be somewhere in between because we give the manufacturers, engineers, engineering 152 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,920 latitude to choose how they want to control the motor. 153 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,060 Yeah, makes complete sense. 154 00:08:00,060 --> 00:08:05,320 So we can back up here a little bit to where I think both Dirk and I were. 155 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,080 And that was when we were teaching the constant torque motor, we was saying, okay, we have 156 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:16,860 120 going in, which is actually going to be converted to DC three phase back to AC three 157 00:08:16,860 --> 00:08:18,360 phase for the motor. 158 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,760 And the motor itself is just a three phase AC motor. 159 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:30,800 And for the ECMAC or constant torque, that motor to, for me to get my mind around it, 160 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,020 I was like, it's no different than an air conditioning condenser. 161 00:08:34,020 --> 00:08:40,480 You have 220 going to the condenser, but it takes 24 volts to pull the contactor down 162 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,880 for that compressor and fan motor to run. 163 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,100 And that's exactly what's happening with a constant torque motor. 164 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:52,740 You have the 110 going in, which is going to be converted through that head, but you 165 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:54,660 have a low voltage. 166 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:57,800 And historically it was 24 volts going into this thing. 167 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:03,480 And depending on which tap you, you sent that 24 volts in that contactor pulled in in the 168 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,000 motor and chose that speed. 169 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,000 And so this was a revelation, I think to all of us that, Hey, we, we have different voltages 170 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000 here. 171 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:20,360 And especially for us after we've created a universal board and the technicians are 172 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,000 like, Hey, I don't have 24 volts here. 173 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000 Something's not right. 174 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Yeah. 175 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:32,960 Well, so even if it only has three taps being powered on the motor, if they're using some 176 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,560 boards like our aftermarket board, they're still not going to get that 24 volts off of 177 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:38,560 it. 178 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:44,520 So we had a DC signal and that range, I would agree with you for the testing that we done. 179 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,640 It was like, Hey, there's a range here that we can be in. 180 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,480 It's not just 10 volt DC. 181 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,200 It can be above and below that. 182 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,440 So it's not a unified standard. 183 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:53,440 Correct. 184 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:59,160 So, so let's, let's get the dirt back in here to finish how he's summed things up. 185 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:00,160 Yeah. 186 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:06,040 So as a technician and a technical trainer for the Habager corporation, ECM Motors is 187 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:12,080 the kind of like the topic that draws people into training because they don't understand 188 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,080 them. 189 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,080 Again, I want to stress the importance. 190 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,400 If you do not know how something works, you cannot diagnose it. 191 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,400 It's that simple. 192 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,360 And I met Chris, I don't know if you remember this, in Tucson, Arizona at the RSES convention 193 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,360 in 2010. 194 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,860 And with that, Chris talked about the ECM Motors and they were out for a while, but that's 195 00:10:30,860 --> 00:10:34,960 when about around the 2010 era is when you started seeing more and more of them. 196 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,600 And Chris had a three part series ECM one, two, and three. 197 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:39,600 With RSES. 198 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,400 Yes, with RSES and the same manuals. 199 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,300 And then with that, I want to put a plug in for the website and the website, the name's 200 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:49,300 like this long. 201 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:55,920 I have it copied into my training for people to click, but ECM University, but if you- 202 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:56,920 Motormaster University? 203 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,200 Motor, thank you. 204 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,480 But if technicians would go there and they would spend one hour watching these videos, 205 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,440 they would be the expert in their company on ECM Motors. 206 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,440 So I'm putting a plug in. 207 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:09,960 Chris, do you know that website? 208 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,120 As regalmmu.com and it is called the Motormaster University. 209 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:15,120 Thank you, Clifton. 210 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:16,120 Absolutely. 211 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,120 I'm turning it over to you, Clifton. 212 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,120 Yeah, no, this is great. 213 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,320 And you're going to see some videos, some podcasts with Chris and I on that exact same 214 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,040 site where we dive deeper into this and we actually do some visual representation of 215 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,040 it. 216 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,040 We have a little fun. 217 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,520 We really, we have a lot of fun. 218 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:29,520 We have a lot of fun. 219 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,400 I mean, are you kidding? 220 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,760 I mean, this is a fun group right here. 221 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,600 You're getting top of the industry talking about things that are happening in this world. 222 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,760 And so we just, we try to encourage you all to understand the things that we work with 223 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,840 on a daily basis to be able to look at things and see that sometimes things change and we 224 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,240 may not be aware of it. 225 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,880 And it's up to us to continually educate ourselves. 226 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:57,080 We have 1200 of us here that are all for the same reason, to educate ourselves, to make 227 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:02,800 sure that we're delivering the proper content back to our classrooms, back to our technicians 228 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,440 and just getting better at the things that we do. 229 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:07,440 You bet. 230 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,440 Cool. 231 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,040 So the takeaway that I'd like to summarize for myself here is when you're troubleshooting 232 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:21,680 a constant torque motor, don't count on a 24 volt signal from the board to the motor. 233 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:22,720 It may be there. 234 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:29,040 It may not be there depending on the manufacturer, depending on what board it is. 235 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,560 And if you're not getting 24 volts, switch your meter to DC, check it in DC, see if you're 236 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:39,840 getting somewhere to 9 to 18 volts somewhere in there and check it that way because it 237 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:48,000 may be the signal that's communicating is now a DC signal and not an AC. 238 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,880 And if you're not checking that as well as what we would have traditionally known as 239 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:59,880 a 24 volt AC signal, you may be missing what actually is going on with the equipment. 240 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:01,880 Can I get an RTFM please? 241 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,760 What's that saying for? 242 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:05,760 I missed it. 243 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Read the fantastic manual. 244 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,200 This is the fun manual. 245 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,200 It's not full? 246 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,760 It's a fantastic fun full manual. 247 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:14,760 I think that's what I heard. 248 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:15,760 Maybe what I don't. 249 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:16,760 It's a fun manual. 250 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,720 Absolutely, read your installation manual, clarify what those signals actually are being 251 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:21,720 used for. 252 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:22,720 You got it. 253 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,720 Cool. 254 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:24,720 All right, guys. 255 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:25,720 Thanks for joining me. 256 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,720 Thank you. 257 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:53,800 DCComm2 here.