Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables where we dive into teaching and learning
methodologies for professionals like you. This episode brought to you by Joey
Henderson otherwise known as JoeJoe the HVAC man. Learn more at JoeJoeHVAC.com
Well hello everyone thank you for joining Did You Know the ESCO HVAC podcast. So
today we're hanging out with Joey Henderson otherwise known as JoeJoe the HVAC man.
How are you my friend? I'm doing fantastic thank you. Hey Joey what happens if the
next refrigerant generation we see is milk? Well first I want to be nice and
cold whenever I get some out of it. Other than that we'll use it just like
we do any other refrigerant. Right just be a refrigerant. It's just a
refrigerant that's all. We always get caught up on you know oh man this new
refrigerant got high pressure oh man is this refrigerant gonna be flammable oh
man what does it really come down to? You know that's a great question and
it's always been the same we got a certain saturation temperature in the
condenser and a certain saturation in the evaporator and that's all we're
worried about no matter what flavor of ice cream is inside that unit. Ain't that
a great way to think about it and we forget about that. Yeah we get caught up
on what is going to be different and we don't really think about well what's
gonna be the same. Right right right there's like any other thing there are
variables and you know but we got to focus on the constant and there are
constants and to keep it simple because I'm a simple man you know is the
saturated condenser temperature is always these days you know we used to be 30
degrees above ambient and let me just explain tell you this real quick when I
was in the field and I heard that 30 over ambient you know we're both back
from the the eight sear days and you know 10 sear was wow and 12 sear was
unheard of all right you know but you know those condensers you know were
small and tiny and we got we were told 30 degrees above ambient well in my my
mind I got turned around because I was so used to reading air coming in and
air going out across the evaporator well I thought I was supposed to measure the
air coming into the condenser and the air coming out the top of the condenser
like a split yeah and it never worked so I threw it in the garbage and never went
back when I finally got educated and found out oh it's outside air temperature
versus the saturation temperature in the condenser well it came simpler these
days our average unit out there your 14 to 16 sear is gonna run between 15 and
20 degrees above ambient so it's very simple you know if it's 90 degrees
outside you add 20 you're looking for 110 degree condensing temperature and
then you convert that to pressure and it don't matter what refrigerates in there
now you know what pressure you ought to be looking at but first just make sure
you got the right saturation and it works every time yeah and so it's as
simple as all right we always preach airflow overcharge right so if we have
verified that the outdoor unit is getting proper airflow and the indoor
unit is getting proper airflow now we can simply look at it from a temperature
perspective that's right that's right and you're right yeah this does work all
the fact that holes are clean filters are clean airflow is correct exactly so
if we think about that and we look at refrigerant because we're going through
a refrigerant change and there's gonna be a lot of people very concerned with
this refrigerant change going oh man I keep hearing it's gonna be mildly
flammable we get into a threes are gonna be highly flammable all my pressures
what my gauges aren't gonna look the same I won't know what to do and it
always comes back to yeah you do you just you're over complicating things
that's right that's right an evaporator temperature on an air conditioning system
has never really changed when we went through these refrigerant changes it
never has I you know so you and I got in the field similar timeframe you know and
so when I jumped in out of the Navy and stepped into the residential commercial
world all of a sudden our 12 was being shot down and our 22 was being shot
down and we had to go to new refrigerants and it was like oh my gosh
you know well when I got the job with carrier and we were really really pushing
for 10a training I had guys think the unit was gonna blow up they thought it
was crazy you know but it's this every unit is designed for whatever pressure
they want to put in them yeah but the temperature never changed the the
saturation temperature is always centered around the application so if
it's air conditioning the evaporator coil has adjusted a little bit we were
running closer to a 35 degree evaporator coil back in the old days and then we've
kind of raised it and on average a run in 40 42 I've seen some as high as 45 but
on average again we're just keeping it simple you know on average about a 40
degree evaporator suction we look at about a 35 degree split between return
air and saturation temperature in the coil that way we get the laying in the
sensible removal with the proper airflow right right and then you get to these
condensers and now since they're making them they you know they used to be three
foot tall now they're you know 15 foot tall you know you only got three options
when it comes to a condenser design to get it high efficient you're either
gonna expand the diameter of it so it won't fit in the backyard or through the
gate to get in there right or they're gonna make it a tower that looks like a
cooling tower outside the back of your house or they'll double it so you'll
have the dual the evaporator overlay and just a side note guys don't forget to
split that thing open and wash it in between inside I've dropped I've dropped
a unit a hundred psi just by cracking it open and it doesn't look that bad but I
promise you it's like a film of plastic in between those two coils the other
little side note but you know get all that clean and then you know the
condensate you know what head pressure should I be looking for
that's always remember what's my pressures be right what's my pressures
you know yeah doesn't matter at the moment find out what your saturation
should be then you can convert that to the pressure whatever refrigerant
including milk exactly because we think about you and I got a patent coming up
right on milk refrigerant you know what that would be a blended refrigerant if we
take our 718 which is h2o and we blend it with lactose which I don't even know
we could probably patent the the PT chart for lactose and then we blend the
two of those and we got milk and we're gonna call that oh that's gonna be
that's not an MO refrigerant that's an MOO refrigerator
so if we think about that right if we had one chemical in it alone that's a
single constituent refrigerant if I blend a couple of them well now I've got
two refrigerants that are taking up the same space and they might boil off a
little bit different right and we are gonna see that going into our new
generations of refrigerants for air conditioning if we think about like r22
r22 was a single constituent refrigerant it had r22 right when we went to r410A
we were actually working with the blended refrigerant but we we never
talked about it enough r410A is a blend a 50-50 blend of r32 and r125 right we
weren't ready for the mildly flammable refrigerant r32 so we threw some flame
deterrent called 125 in there and we end up with 410A that's right so the reason
we had to flip the jug upside down when we were charging it because we had to
charge it with the liquid because it had that glide that little bitty potential
for boiling off it very very small now when we move into r32 well we are moving
into r32 and 454 they're already hitting the streets r32 is a single
constituent refrigerant remember it was half of our 410A so on my PT chart boom
whatever my pressure is my temperature should be this right now with 454B
we're actually gonna have some glide and so I think it's great to talk about
blended refrigerants and just really to understand that what that means is in a
little window we could have one refrigerant if we're if we're raising the
pressure we can have one refrigerant boil off at a temperature and the other
one be catching up but not quite done right so there's a little window in
there between when it's totally a vapor and below when it's totally a liquid now
is it gonna matter with our digital gauges not much it's got to calculate
that difference yeah they're gonna calculate it for us yeah you know I and
I like the way you put it because dew and bubble just just every time I heard
somebody explain it I you know at some point my brain checked out because it
just got complicated right now so last thing I hate is something complicated
again I'm a simple man so I want to keep it simple and like you said on the dew
and the bubble you know you got you know at the dew when you we got a dew point
temperature you know we're looking at a hundred degrees saturation and at 315
psig we're right at the cusp and anything above that we're gonna be a
total gas that would be superheated gas yep right and then on the bubble which
would be the lower end of the pressure range go through that little window of
glide right we're gliding we're basically we're dropping down kind of
think of the movie the abyss we're dropping down that's right so finally
when we hit the bottom down where the mega shark lives you know we've now hit
true liquid right but back in the day you and I we all carried in our little
pocket these little PT charts you know and then they made them out with these
do a bubble and we all lost our minds you know but the now with the digital
gauges that have it all built in for us they're not gonna I haven't seen yet
where they show bubble and do they're pretty much gonna take an average
between that window and that's exactly what they're gonna do and you know you
can you can figure out your subcooling your superheat the same way you always
have of course these days are doing it for you you know so you got to trust it
the only you're gonna you know the only left is you know whether or not your
sensors are accurate or not so but I don't really like to get too caught up
in the weeds with doing bubble it is what it is it's a short window so I'm
a little it's definitely bigger compared to like you said for 10 a by all means
but in the end we're still gonna go for an average target condensing temperature
and a target evaporator that's it and then we can troubleshoot from there is
my head pressure running too high well darn I don't know these new
refrigerants you know maybe it's 600 I don't know you know well no it's not you
know 454 B are 32 are close to 410 a you know not perfect but it's not being that
crazy when you and I came through and they went from R12 a lot I wasn't
around we went from R12 to R22 in a sees all right I was when we went from R12 to
134 a in refrigeration refrigeration but we went from 22 to 410 a that was a
substantial increase absolutely you know and we also changed oils we had a major
transformation back in the 90s early 90s here we've already got POE oil we've all
got that stuck in our heads and now really the 454 B and R32 is just not
that big of a change on the operation we're gonna see 32 go up a few yeah
we're gonna see 454 go down a few that's right and a few is a is a is the right
way to say it yeah it's literally just a few I mean if you're not used to reading
temperatures and pressures anyhow you're gonna put them gauges on it's
gonna look almost identical to what you have in the past it really is and you
know we you and I we got this little chart up here in front of us and you
look at a hundred degree condensing temperature for 410 a and you and you've
even got that little bit of a glide in there but let's just say it's 333 you
know and you know that was so average you know when I started doing training
for 410 a with carrier they were guesstimating because we hadn't had a
unit out there yet I was certified for today two years before one even hit the
streets right and they were telling us 400 head pressure 400 head pressure I
never saw a foreigner had pressure in my life on 410 a it was 335 and 340 and
guess what that is 100 to 105 condensing and that is designed no matter what
refrigerant it is and then you go over here to 454 B and sure enough I mean you
look at the average between 454 B and it's between 305 and 315 so we're kind
of hitting in the middle there a little bit lower than 410 a and you know r32 is
gonna be almost the same it's like 340 so a little higher no freaking out it's
it's okay you know absolutely you know just keep doing what you're doing keep
it simple you know and you'll be alright but now you know that if it's 95 outside
let's say it's 105 outside you know add 20 to that and that's where your
saturation temperature ought to be and then convert that to whatever refrigerant
pressure you're working on absolutely if I was working with something like co2
people go I don't know what it would be like to work on co2 what kind of head
pressure am I gonna have well hundred degrees 1363 it's a lot of pressure
that's the kind of pressures we need to educate on when we're talking about high
pressures 22 to 410 is not high pressure change that's all right we'll make the
cold out of titanium yeah 410 to co2 now we're talking what about water right
we're gonna make our new you know new we call it move to move to move to 22 we're
actually gonna be in vacuum at a hundred degrees we're gonna be at 28 inches
right so water is absolutely a refrigerant can I have the exact same
evaporator temperature and condensing temperature and just use water
absolutely yep so I could run an air conditioning system on water or milk
it's just gonna be in vacuum on both sides that's right that's right everybody
gotta remember this podcast because down the way when you guys are buying milk
out of the grocery store for your fridge remember the move 22 guys I mean you
know to just assure our audience it's nothing to worry about it really is you
know these new refrigerants but you know as far as how they're gonna operate in
the system you know yeah we're gonna have some extra sensors on there for
leaks and you know the refrigerant leak the refrigerant sensors out there but
they're slightly flammable they broke the barrier barely barely you know barely
I mean you know Ty just did a great little video put a match right up to it
nothing happened you've done the videos to show it you know and you know it not
gonna now we're not talking about propane no not talking about 290 or 600
we're just talking about 454 B and r32 and no worries no absolutely for just
the sake of conversation because let's think about this like going forward we
are going to have new refrigerants periodically oh yeah it's gonna come
again yeah absolutely you know so many technicians get into the mindset of I'm
learning this refrigerant and it's gonna be here my whole career no this is this
is our this is Joey and I's third refrigerant change right it's up it's
almost a fourth when we look at where we're yeah if we add commercial in there
we're talking about a fourth generation of changes so as we move into the next
generation of changes we are going to go to something else sometime in the next
12 years because remember the HFC phase down will be done by 2036 we will be
down to an 85% reduction of all HFCs including r32 and 454 B so right so we
got a shelf life of these new quote refrigerants we got a shelf life of
about 12 years if they make it that long and we will be moving into another
generation of refrigerants it might be milk we might my golly we may come up
with that million dollar retirement that's right someone might actually work
with mood 22 one day the only thing that's constant is change constant you
can't stop it no there's gonna be a reason you're right I mean we've already
got the phase-out going we inevitably we're gonna have another refrigerant to
even replace these two absolutely that's a given but back to our point it's all
based on design saturation temperatures will not change or air-conditioned right
let's just assume what if we did have propane for air conditioning and and we
took it and we put it outside say we have like an air to water you're looking
at sitting outside we get rid of the line sets that have refrigerant in them
and we have line sets that have water mixed with brine right okay that's right
that's what we're gonna end up with if anyone doesn't know if when we get if we
go to propane we are actually not gonna have refrigerant indoors it's all gonna
be outside but we go get our ages what we're gonna be looking for we're gonna
have a self-contained unit outside it's gonna have an evaporator and a condenser
and because it's air conditioning it's probably gonna have a 40 degree design
evaporator it's gonna have about a hundred degree design on condenser and
if we look at a PT chart now we're gonna go okay well Joe you're just telling me
that I have that design split right and so I look at my approach and I go okay
if I've got a hundred degree condensing temperature and I walk over and I go
well if I was 340 degrees on r32 and now I'm just gonna go ahead and use r290
man I'm gonna drop all the way back down again to 190 yeah I'm gonna be in
between 12 and 22 that's right but temperature wise I could have a
completely new generation of product that's right but I'm still probably
going to design my evaporator and my condensing temperatures about the same
as what we're doing right now that's right because in the end remember we're
either raising the pressure raising the temperature of the refrigerant so that
we can reject the heat with hot air outside yeah right or we're gonna lower
the refrigerant temperature enough to absorb the heat on the inside and that
is all strictly based off of the indoor return air temperature that we're trying
to achieve you know and the latent and sensible removal and again this is all
back to proper airflow and proper clean cold right you know so all that comes
into play you know but you know like you're saying you know we might as well
start looking at you know the more and more we move to trying to get away from
any of these refrigerants and have something like 290 where you can just
let it go you know get out of the way they're gonna be probably circulating
you know like a little chill water system you know just like hydronic
heating we'll have you know chill water through the house and have a little
package unit sitting outside with a small amount of propane in it yeah and
then you know the nice thing is is you ain't gonna worry about recovery and
their their pressures are pressures related to temperature are very very
close to 22 yeah I seen our very first one a lot of people missed it we had our
very first one at the AHR show this year we had a three ton our 290 air to water
residential heat pump three three ton three on two point eight pounds of our
290 yeah but as the next generation that's what we have to look at so you
know we were worried about the pressure increase when we went from 22 to 410
we're worried about the flammability going from 410 to 32 and 454 B the next
we're gonna probably worry about the flammability not realizing that the
pressures are actually going way down lower when we go to 290 or 600 right and
but it all still is going to actually maintain those similar same saturation
design and saturation you know the only thing you'll be keeping your eye on is
the sear rating of these and you know and of course the the lower the lower
the condenser split the better in other words the the lower amount that we've
got to raise that pressure to get that heat rejection the less work the
compressors got to do let's work and that's more efficient so like I've got a
20 sear unit and and yes it comes up to my chin just about and a whopping two
tons and and yet it's 10 degrees over so if it's 95 outside I'm only run 105
condensing temperature wow so you bring the pressures down even a little bit
yeah very cool so alright easy it is easy simple math easy and simple and
don't forget you too
Jojo the HFAC man I appreciate you hanging out with us today and I look
forward to some more conversations love it thank you Cliff