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Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables where we dive into teaching and learning

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methodologies for professionals like you. This episode brought to you by Joey

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Henderson otherwise known as JoeJoe the HVAC man. Learn more at JoeJoeHVAC.com

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Well hello everyone thank you for joining Did You Know the ESCO HVAC podcast. So

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today we're hanging out with Joey Henderson otherwise known as JoeJoe the HVAC man.

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How are you my friend? I'm doing fantastic thank you. Hey Joey what happens if the

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next refrigerant generation we see is milk? Well first I want to be nice and

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cold whenever I get some out of it. Other than that we'll use it just like

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we do any other refrigerant. Right just be a refrigerant. It's just a

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refrigerant that's all. We always get caught up on you know oh man this new

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refrigerant got high pressure oh man is this refrigerant gonna be flammable oh

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man what does it really come down to? You know that's a great question and

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it's always been the same we got a certain saturation temperature in the

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condenser and a certain saturation in the evaporator and that's all we're

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worried about no matter what flavor of ice cream is inside that unit. Ain't that

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a great way to think about it and we forget about that. Yeah we get caught up

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on what is going to be different and we don't really think about well what's

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gonna be the same. Right right right there's like any other thing there are

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variables and you know but we got to focus on the constant and there are

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constants and to keep it simple because I'm a simple man you know is the

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saturated condenser temperature is always these days you know we used to be 30

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degrees above ambient and let me just explain tell you this real quick when I

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was in the field and I heard that 30 over ambient you know we're both back

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from the the eight sear days and you know 10 sear was wow and 12 sear was

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unheard of all right you know but you know those condensers you know were

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small and tiny and we got we were told 30 degrees above ambient well in my my

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mind I got turned around because I was so used to reading air coming in and

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air going out across the evaporator well I thought I was supposed to measure the

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air coming into the condenser and the air coming out the top of the condenser

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like a split yeah and it never worked so I threw it in the garbage and never went

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back when I finally got educated and found out oh it's outside air temperature

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versus the saturation temperature in the condenser well it came simpler these

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days our average unit out there your 14 to 16 sear is gonna run between 15 and

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20 degrees above ambient so it's very simple you know if it's 90 degrees

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outside you add 20 you're looking for 110 degree condensing temperature and

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then you convert that to pressure and it don't matter what refrigerates in there

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now you know what pressure you ought to be looking at but first just make sure

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you got the right saturation and it works every time yeah and so it's as

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simple as all right we always preach airflow overcharge right so if we have

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verified that the outdoor unit is getting proper airflow and the indoor

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unit is getting proper airflow now we can simply look at it from a temperature

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perspective that's right that's right and you're right yeah this does work all

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the fact that holes are clean filters are clean airflow is correct exactly so

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if we think about that and we look at refrigerant because we're going through

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a refrigerant change and there's gonna be a lot of people very concerned with

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this refrigerant change going oh man I keep hearing it's gonna be mildly

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flammable we get into a threes are gonna be highly flammable all my pressures

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what my gauges aren't gonna look the same I won't know what to do and it

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always comes back to yeah you do you just you're over complicating things

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that's right that's right an evaporator temperature on an air conditioning system

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has never really changed when we went through these refrigerant changes it

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never has I you know so you and I got in the field similar timeframe you know and

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so when I jumped in out of the Navy and stepped into the residential commercial

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world all of a sudden our 12 was being shot down and our 22 was being shot

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down and we had to go to new refrigerants and it was like oh my gosh

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you know well when I got the job with carrier and we were really really pushing

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for 10a training I had guys think the unit was gonna blow up they thought it

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was crazy you know but it's this every unit is designed for whatever pressure

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they want to put in them yeah but the temperature never changed the the

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saturation temperature is always centered around the application so if

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it's air conditioning the evaporator coil has adjusted a little bit we were

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running closer to a 35 degree evaporator coil back in the old days and then we've

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kind of raised it and on average a run in 40 42 I've seen some as high as 45 but

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on average again we're just keeping it simple you know on average about a 40

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degree evaporator suction we look at about a 35 degree split between return

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air and saturation temperature in the coil that way we get the laying in the

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sensible removal with the proper airflow right right and then you get to these

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condensers and now since they're making them they you know they used to be three

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foot tall now they're you know 15 foot tall you know you only got three options

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when it comes to a condenser design to get it high efficient you're either

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gonna expand the diameter of it so it won't fit in the backyard or through the

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gate to get in there right or they're gonna make it a tower that looks like a

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cooling tower outside the back of your house or they'll double it so you'll

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have the dual the evaporator overlay and just a side note guys don't forget to

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split that thing open and wash it in between inside I've dropped I've dropped

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a unit a hundred psi just by cracking it open and it doesn't look that bad but I

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promise you it's like a film of plastic in between those two coils the other

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little side note but you know get all that clean and then you know the

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condensate you know what head pressure should I be looking for

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that's always remember what's my pressures be right what's my pressures

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you know yeah doesn't matter at the moment find out what your saturation

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should be then you can convert that to the pressure whatever refrigerant

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including milk exactly because we think about you and I got a patent coming up

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right on milk refrigerant you know what that would be a blended refrigerant if we

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take our 718 which is h2o and we blend it with lactose which I don't even know

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we could probably patent the the PT chart for lactose and then we blend the

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two of those and we got milk and we're gonna call that oh that's gonna be

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that's not an MO refrigerant that's an MOO refrigerator

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so if we think about that right if we had one chemical in it alone that's a

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single constituent refrigerant if I blend a couple of them well now I've got

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two refrigerants that are taking up the same space and they might boil off a

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little bit different right and we are gonna see that going into our new

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generations of refrigerants for air conditioning if we think about like r22

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r22 was a single constituent refrigerant it had r22 right when we went to r410A

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we were actually working with the blended refrigerant but we we never

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talked about it enough r410A is a blend a 50-50 blend of r32 and r125 right we

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weren't ready for the mildly flammable refrigerant r32 so we threw some flame

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deterrent called 125 in there and we end up with 410A that's right so the reason

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we had to flip the jug upside down when we were charging it because we had to

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charge it with the liquid because it had that glide that little bitty potential

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for boiling off it very very small now when we move into r32 well we are moving

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into r32 and 454 they're already hitting the streets r32 is a single

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constituent refrigerant remember it was half of our 410A so on my PT chart boom

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whatever my pressure is my temperature should be this right now with 454B

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we're actually gonna have some glide and so I think it's great to talk about

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blended refrigerants and just really to understand that what that means is in a

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little window we could have one refrigerant if we're if we're raising the

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pressure we can have one refrigerant boil off at a temperature and the other

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one be catching up but not quite done right so there's a little window in

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there between when it's totally a vapor and below when it's totally a liquid now

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is it gonna matter with our digital gauges not much it's got to calculate

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that difference yeah they're gonna calculate it for us yeah you know I and

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I like the way you put it because dew and bubble just just every time I heard

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somebody explain it I you know at some point my brain checked out because it

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just got complicated right now so last thing I hate is something complicated

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again I'm a simple man so I want to keep it simple and like you said on the dew

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and the bubble you know you got you know at the dew when you we got a dew point

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temperature you know we're looking at a hundred degrees saturation and at 315

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psig we're right at the cusp and anything above that we're gonna be a

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total gas that would be superheated gas yep right and then on the bubble which

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would be the lower end of the pressure range go through that little window of

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glide right we're gliding we're basically we're dropping down kind of

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think of the movie the abyss we're dropping down that's right so finally

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when we hit the bottom down where the mega shark lives you know we've now hit

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true liquid right but back in the day you and I we all carried in our little

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pocket these little PT charts you know and then they made them out with these

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do a bubble and we all lost our minds you know but the now with the digital

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gauges that have it all built in for us they're not gonna I haven't seen yet

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where they show bubble and do they're pretty much gonna take an average

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between that window and that's exactly what they're gonna do and you know you

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can you can figure out your subcooling your superheat the same way you always

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have of course these days are doing it for you you know so you got to trust it

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the only you're gonna you know the only left is you know whether or not your

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sensors are accurate or not so but I don't really like to get too caught up

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in the weeds with doing bubble it is what it is it's a short window so I'm

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a little it's definitely bigger compared to like you said for 10 a by all means

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but in the end we're still gonna go for an average target condensing temperature

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and a target evaporator that's it and then we can troubleshoot from there is

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my head pressure running too high well darn I don't know these new

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refrigerants you know maybe it's 600 I don't know you know well no it's not you

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know 454 B are 32 are close to 410 a you know not perfect but it's not being that

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crazy when you and I came through and they went from R12 a lot I wasn't

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around we went from R12 to R22 in a sees all right I was when we went from R12 to

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134 a in refrigeration refrigeration but we went from 22 to 410 a that was a

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substantial increase absolutely you know and we also changed oils we had a major

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transformation back in the 90s early 90s here we've already got POE oil we've all

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got that stuck in our heads and now really the 454 B and R32 is just not

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that big of a change on the operation we're gonna see 32 go up a few yeah

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we're gonna see 454 go down a few that's right and a few is a is a is the right

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way to say it yeah it's literally just a few I mean if you're not used to reading

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temperatures and pressures anyhow you're gonna put them gauges on it's

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gonna look almost identical to what you have in the past it really is and you

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know we you and I we got this little chart up here in front of us and you

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look at a hundred degree condensing temperature for 410 a and you and you've

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even got that little bit of a glide in there but let's just say it's 333 you

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know and you know that was so average you know when I started doing training

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for 410 a with carrier they were guesstimating because we hadn't had a

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unit out there yet I was certified for today two years before one even hit the

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streets right and they were telling us 400 head pressure 400 head pressure I

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never saw a foreigner had pressure in my life on 410 a it was 335 and 340 and

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guess what that is 100 to 105 condensing and that is designed no matter what

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refrigerant it is and then you go over here to 454 B and sure enough I mean you

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look at the average between 454 B and it's between 305 and 315 so we're kind

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of hitting in the middle there a little bit lower than 410 a and you know r32 is

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gonna be almost the same it's like 340 so a little higher no freaking out it's

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it's okay you know absolutely you know just keep doing what you're doing keep

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it simple you know and you'll be alright but now you know that if it's 95 outside

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let's say it's 105 outside you know add 20 to that and that's where your

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saturation temperature ought to be and then convert that to whatever refrigerant

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pressure you're working on absolutely if I was working with something like co2

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people go I don't know what it would be like to work on co2 what kind of head

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pressure am I gonna have well hundred degrees 1363 it's a lot of pressure

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that's the kind of pressures we need to educate on when we're talking about high

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pressures 22 to 410 is not high pressure change that's all right we'll make the

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cold out of titanium yeah 410 to co2 now we're talking what about water right

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we're gonna make our new you know new we call it move to move to move to 22 we're

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actually gonna be in vacuum at a hundred degrees we're gonna be at 28 inches

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right so water is absolutely a refrigerant can I have the exact same

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evaporator temperature and condensing temperature and just use water

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absolutely yep so I could run an air conditioning system on water or milk

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it's just gonna be in vacuum on both sides that's right that's right everybody

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gotta remember this podcast because down the way when you guys are buying milk

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out of the grocery store for your fridge remember the move 22 guys I mean you

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know to just assure our audience it's nothing to worry about it really is you

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know these new refrigerants but you know as far as how they're gonna operate in

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the system you know yeah we're gonna have some extra sensors on there for

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leaks and you know the refrigerant leak the refrigerant sensors out there but

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they're slightly flammable they broke the barrier barely barely you know barely

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I mean you know Ty just did a great little video put a match right up to it

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nothing happened you've done the videos to show it you know and you know it not

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gonna now we're not talking about propane no not talking about 290 or 600

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we're just talking about 454 B and r32 and no worries no absolutely for just

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the sake of conversation because let's think about this like going forward we

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are going to have new refrigerants periodically oh yeah it's gonna come

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again yeah absolutely you know so many technicians get into the mindset of I'm

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learning this refrigerant and it's gonna be here my whole career no this is this

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is our this is Joey and I's third refrigerant change right it's up it's

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almost a fourth when we look at where we're yeah if we add commercial in there

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we're talking about a fourth generation of changes so as we move into the next

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generation of changes we are going to go to something else sometime in the next

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12 years because remember the HFC phase down will be done by 2036 we will be

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down to an 85% reduction of all HFCs including r32 and 454 B so right so we

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got a shelf life of these new quote refrigerants we got a shelf life of

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about 12 years if they make it that long and we will be moving into another

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generation of refrigerants it might be milk we might my golly we may come up

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with that million dollar retirement that's right someone might actually work

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with mood 22 one day the only thing that's constant is change constant you

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can't stop it no there's gonna be a reason you're right I mean we've already

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got the phase-out going we inevitably we're gonna have another refrigerant to

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even replace these two absolutely that's a given but back to our point it's all

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based on design saturation temperatures will not change or air-conditioned right

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let's just assume what if we did have propane for air conditioning and and we

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took it and we put it outside say we have like an air to water you're looking

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at sitting outside we get rid of the line sets that have refrigerant in them

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and we have line sets that have water mixed with brine right okay that's right

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that's what we're gonna end up with if anyone doesn't know if when we get if we

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go to propane we are actually not gonna have refrigerant indoors it's all gonna

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be outside but we go get our ages what we're gonna be looking for we're gonna

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have a self-contained unit outside it's gonna have an evaporator and a condenser

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and because it's air conditioning it's probably gonna have a 40 degree design

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evaporator it's gonna have about a hundred degree design on condenser and

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if we look at a PT chart now we're gonna go okay well Joe you're just telling me

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that I have that design split right and so I look at my approach and I go okay

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if I've got a hundred degree condensing temperature and I walk over and I go

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well if I was 340 degrees on r32 and now I'm just gonna go ahead and use r290

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man I'm gonna drop all the way back down again to 190 yeah I'm gonna be in

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between 12 and 22 that's right but temperature wise I could have a

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completely new generation of product that's right but I'm still probably

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going to design my evaporator and my condensing temperatures about the same

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as what we're doing right now that's right because in the end remember we're

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either raising the pressure raising the temperature of the refrigerant so that

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we can reject the heat with hot air outside yeah right or we're gonna lower

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the refrigerant temperature enough to absorb the heat on the inside and that

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is all strictly based off of the indoor return air temperature that we're trying

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to achieve you know and the latent and sensible removal and again this is all

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back to proper airflow and proper clean cold right you know so all that comes

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into play you know but you know like you're saying you know we might as well

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start looking at you know the more and more we move to trying to get away from

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any of these refrigerants and have something like 290 where you can just

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let it go you know get out of the way they're gonna be probably circulating

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you know like a little chill water system you know just like hydronic

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heating we'll have you know chill water through the house and have a little

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package unit sitting outside with a small amount of propane in it yeah and

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then you know the nice thing is is you ain't gonna worry about recovery and

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their their pressures are pressures related to temperature are very very

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close to 22 yeah I seen our very first one a lot of people missed it we had our

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very first one at the AHR show this year we had a three ton our 290 air to water

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residential heat pump three three ton three on two point eight pounds of our

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290 yeah but as the next generation that's what we have to look at so you

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know we were worried about the pressure increase when we went from 22 to 410

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we're worried about the flammability going from 410 to 32 and 454 B the next

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we're gonna probably worry about the flammability not realizing that the

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pressures are actually going way down lower when we go to 290 or 600 right and

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but it all still is going to actually maintain those similar same saturation

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design and saturation you know the only thing you'll be keeping your eye on is

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the sear rating of these and you know and of course the the lower the lower

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the condenser split the better in other words the the lower amount that we've

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got to raise that pressure to get that heat rejection the less work the

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compressors got to do let's work and that's more efficient so like I've got a

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20 sear unit and and yes it comes up to my chin just about and a whopping two

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tons and and yet it's 10 degrees over so if it's 95 outside I'm only run 105

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condensing temperature wow so you bring the pressures down even a little bit

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yeah very cool so alright easy it is easy simple math easy and simple and

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don't forget you too

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Jojo the HFAC man I appreciate you hanging out with us today and I look

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forward to some more conversations love it thank you Cliff