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Tales from the trenches, stories forged in the fires of experience.

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This episode brought to you by Lennox, a leader in energy efficient climate control solutions

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for the HVACR industry.

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Learn more at Lennox.com.

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Well hello everyone, thank you for joining Did You Know?

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The ESCO HVAC Podcast.

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So today we're spending time with Dave Nichols, the training manager for Lennox Learning Solutions.

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How are you doing Dave?

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I'm great, thank you very much.

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How are you?

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I'm doing wonderful.

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We're trying to build a larger inventory of our Tales from the Trenches stories.

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And you and I got onto a really good topic that I think we're going to call the evolution

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of the HVAC contractor.

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Okay.

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So when I got into the industry, I got into the industry in the late 90s in a small family

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owned refrigeration and HVAC company.

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So a lot of mom and pop restaurants, I did a lot of school corporations as well, but

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we also worked on all of our neighbors furnaces and air conditioners.

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So we were a very small contractor and I had friends that worked at larger contracting

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companies.

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But when I first started, we were actually doing all of our invoices in DOS and all of

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our customers were on a card catalog.

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And it was until about 2005.

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Then we went to Windows.

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You got into the 20th century.

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I got into the 20th century.

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And as we start talking about how technology is changing and training is changing and equipment

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and refrigerants are all changing.

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I feel like I'm back in that stage when we were phasing out a lot of our CFC equipment

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in the commercial side.

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And there was, there was a lot of turmoil because there were a lot of contractors that

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were just saying, I don't want to do this.

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I think I'm just, I think I'll just retire.

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But then you had other companies going, I think I'll take advantage of this.

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And that's kind of what I did.

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I created a little niche in my industry where I wanted to work on equipment that nobody

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else would work on, whether it was refrigerant wise or whether it was on controls.

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And it did well for me.

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And I think we're there again.

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I think as contractors, we're going through a large transition and you could tell me all

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about that.

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You've witnessed a variety of changes within our industry.

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Oh gosh, yes.

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I remember in the eighties when Lennox first came out with the, with the pulse furnace,

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the first 90% furnace on the market.

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And somebody then said, well, I guess, I guess this is the best we're going to get.

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And you know, me being the smart aleck I am turned around and said, well, we are not at

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a hundred percent yet.

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Well, you know, Lennox is actually pretty darn close right now.

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We're at 99.5% officially in some of our furnaces.

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Yeah.

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So it's, it's amazing how things change.

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I don't think anybody expected that 90% efficient furnace.

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Gosh, I remember my dad, who was a design engineer for a cooking equipment manufacturer,

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he had his gas license.

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So he always worked on our furnace.

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Now our furnace back then, I mean, if it was 60% efficient, I would be surprised.

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And I mean, the simplest thing you've ever seen, right?

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Probably a heat anticipator, a fan and a burner and just fired up every now and then and heated

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the house.

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Big old clunky thing, big old machine and big, huge ductwork coming up out of it.

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Yeah.

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And, and now we take a look at the size of furnaces that are 90% efficient, so much more,

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and you open it up and it's, it's a little scary with all the wiring and all the technology

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that's in there.

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It's kind of like my car.

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You know, I remember back in the day I had little British sports cars and I would rip

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the engine apart, put it all back together again, and it would run surprisingly because

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I had a whole bunch of nuts and bolts left over.

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But now I open up the hood of my car and look at it and go, yep, that's an engine and close

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the hood back down again, cause I ain't touching it.

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Yeah.

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And I always make this analogy into that.

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Cause I'm very much into automotive as well.

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It's been a passion of mine for as long as I've been able to tinker with vehicles.

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And I always relate to when we made the transitions from carburation and mechanical timing into

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fuel injection and electronic timing and how we had to still work on that same internal

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combustion engine.

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We just had to learn the controls that were associated with it.

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And we're kind of there again in our industry where we've gotten comfortable doing something

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for so long, working on something for so long that we've kind of dug our own hole into a

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comfortable place that we don't want to get out of.

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Yeah.

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We're going to have to.

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I agree.

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I, that's human nature though, isn't it?

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I mean, when you get comfortable with something, you don't want to see it go away.

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You want to, you want to hold on to it and stay there.

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One of the things that I always thought of in my careers, I always have to look for the

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next best thing and, and, and be willing to challenge myself on something new.

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And quite honestly, it happened to me early in my career.

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I remember going to some fellow who had been with the company for quite a while and I said,

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Hey, I just came up with this new way of doing this.

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I think it might save you a lot of time, make it easier for you if you did it this, this

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and this.

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And he looked at me and he goes, Nope.

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And I said, what do you mean?

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And he said, no, I said, I've been doing it this way for 30 years.

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Why would I change now?

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And I walked away and thinking, if I ever get like that, just shoot me.

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Right?

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I mean, you've got, you've got to be open to new ways of doing things, new concepts,

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new ideas.

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Let's face it here.

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You and I are, we're talking across computers.

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We're actually looking at each other as if we're in the same room.

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But you know, 10 years ago, I don't know that we could do this.

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No, not, and definitely not have the quality that we have now.

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Right.

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And so even from the diagnostic side, you know, we have service tools that are allowing

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this kind of capability.

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We have, you know, installation and commissioning assistance from technology that is just changing

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the way we look at our industry.

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And I was, I was at a training class down at Oak Ridge national lab last week, Jason

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Objute and I were down there.

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And one of the contractors that was working on the facility, a union contractor came up

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to me afterwards and said, you know, I've been listening to you guys's show.

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I've been trying to tell my management that this refrigerant transition is coming and

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they think it's like five years down the road.

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And I'm afraid that they might fail.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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And I said, well, that's, that's really why we're doing this.

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We're here to talk about being comfortable with changes and transitions and seeking the

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education that you need if you don't have a comfortable or familiarness with it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, I think, you know, you and I both been through a refrigerant changes

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in the past.

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It's going to be like a falling off a cliff at the end of this year versus what it was

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like when we went from our 22.

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Yeah.

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And you know, we look at 22 when we're talking in the nineties, it wasn't finishing its phase

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out until 2020.

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Yes, exactly.

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Now with our HFC phase down, we're looking at 2036 and it's not even going to last that

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long because we've already hit our 40% reduction.

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We've got another 30 coming in a couple of years.

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By time we hit that, there's not going to be much HFCs left.

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And that's if we reclaim properly.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly right.

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So we have to be prepared.

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I mean, and I, I, I feared that we, the industry has sort of set itself up with the way we

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did it in the past to the way it's going to happen this time.

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And I think a lot of people are going to get some, some shock.

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Yeah, I do too.

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So let's think about this from like a contractor's perspective.

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Sure.

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You know, there were, there were processes that have changed.

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Like one of the things that we had talked about is if we look at a contractor from 20

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years ago, whatever service industry you were in, the focus was very much on that commitment

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to your consumer.

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And it was the relationship between your consumer.

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And if you had an appointment for a particular time, he spent a lot of time making sure that

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you were there at that appointment time.

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And that has kind of changed.

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And definitely since COVID.

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Yeah, you know, I, I, I'm distressed that there are so many companies in, in, in the

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industry, whether it's our industry or, or just in the service industry in general, that,

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you know, when somebody calls looking for somebody to come to their home to perform

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some level of service, they're given a window that is still, you know, maybe four hours.

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And in one instance, I had somebody give me an eight hour window recently.

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And that is so frustrating to the consumer.

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So think about this, you know, you know, the cable companies get a bad rap, but I mean,

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they give you a four hour window of when they're going to show up and you know, darn well,

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that guy's not going to show up until the end of that window.

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But as a consumer, you have to hang out on because you never know that guy might show

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up at the beginning of the window.

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So it's a crap shoot.

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And then when that that person does show up, they don't communicate effectively.

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They don't let you know that they're happy to be there.

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It's kind of mundane job and they're, they're almost miserable.

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And the homeowner is not happy because they're stressed out with the challenges.

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And really and truly, you know, one of the things I used to tell my taxes when they get

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to the door, the first thing they got to fix is the homeowner.

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No, absolutely.

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And then you go look at the equipment and then you communicate with the homeowner, let

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them know what it is you found, what you're doing and all of that kind of stuff.

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And you know, technicians tell me they hate to have a homeowner with them while they're

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working.

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Well, you know, show and tell is the best way to build value.

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If you don't want somebody looking over your shoulder, you know, tell them what you're

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doing because when they, when they have confidence that you, you know what you're doing and that

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you're actually going to look after them, they might well go away.

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But if they don't know, if you don't give them that confidence, they're going to sit

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there and watch you forever.

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Yeah.

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So, so true.

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You know, I used to be in technical support and whenever I was working with someone getting

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involved with technical support, I'd always taught them that, you know, the job is called

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technical support, but it's really technician support.

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And if you're talking to a homeowner, it's not necessarily customer service, it's customer

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support.

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Yes.

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And then you gain the service.

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And that has definitely escaped us, particularly since we were talking earlier, since, you

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know, 2019 to 2020 was a transitional period in customer service, unlike any other.

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And we can make a very clear definition between that.

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And so as, as contractors, as technicians, if you're, especially if you're a very young

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technician and you don't know what we're talking about, there was a time before 2020 where

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people really focused on each other a lot more.

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Would you say so?

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Yeah, I think so.

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I think our ability to communicate has deteriorated.

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Yes.

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I was talking with somebody the other day, we, we, we go, when, whenever we go out for

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dinner, or even if we're eating dinner at home, we never have our phones near us.

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Right.

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We're, we're actually talking with one another, but how often do you go to a restaurant and

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a family of four is sitting at a table and every one of them is looking, staring at their

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phone.

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Now, I mean, there's no companionship, there's no relationship being built.

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Nobody, nobody talks anymore.

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They text one another and it's all short forms.

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And I, you know, the English language, any language, it doesn't have to be English that

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you're speaking, but whatever language you're speaking, it can be such a vibrant language

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and, and so much can be shared with one another just by talking and having great ideas.

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And I, I, I feared that we get so tied up in technology that we have forgotten how to

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communicate effectively.

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I know when I was growing up as a contractor, that was one of the things that was pounded

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into me was communication.

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Even outside of work.

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So my, my father-in-law at the time was at, you know, Freemason and was very active in

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masonry and encouraged me to be a part of that, to learn proper communication.

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And that's actually really where I learned communication skills, but I was able to take

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those communication skills that I was learning and then bring them back to work.

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And then I became an effective communicator with my customers and it changed my career

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completely.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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I had a similar situation, not quite like that, but I was encouraged to get out and

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speak to groups more.

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When you're trying to get a point across to a group of people, you have to be able to

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communicate effectively.

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Otherwise that you lose them, the audience behind.

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And so you, one of the things that I've learned is you have to connect the dots for people.

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Yes.

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You, you might understand from A to Z, you know, how you're going to get there, but unless

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you actually take people along the journey with you, not everybody's going to make the

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connection like you will.

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Our very own Eugene Silverstein says, you don't know the topic until you can teach it

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to a third grader.

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And that really makes sense.

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Three ago, good point.

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And I love that the first time I thought about it, I was like, Oh, not really.

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Not that well, maybe that makes sense because you have to be able to explain it in a way

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that someone who has no knowledge that is similar to yours could comprehend what you

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are saying.

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And so breaking that communication barrier is, it can be a challenge, but it's well

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worth investing yourself to learn that.

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Because there was times where we spent a lot of time communicating to each other and communicating

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to customers.

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And I also feel like that has changed in the last few decades.

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I think so.

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Well, you know, I think if you're going to sell somebody anything, doesn't matter whether

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it's product or service or whatever it is, you have to build value and there's only one

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way to build value.

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And that is to effectively explain to homeowner what it is they're going to get, how you

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go to business, what you're going to do for them, what the benefit is that they're going

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to get from whatever service you're providing.

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And if they understand the value, then they're more than prepared to pay the price.

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But if they don't understand the value and you haven't built the value and they don't

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understand the benefits, it all comes down to price and you'd leave so much money on

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the table at that point.

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Yeah, that's a really good perspective.

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I'm sitting here thinking about the exact same analogy to contractors looking at the

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changes that are happening in our industry.

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And if I'm a contractor that is not embracing change and talking and learning and using

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communications to become better educated on their products, they could literally lose

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out on a sale just because of a lack of communication.

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And if they don't understand the transitions that are happening, they don't understand

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the education that could potentially be needed with the new products, they may not be able

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to build that confidence in the consumer.

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Correct.

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Well, think about this.

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How many people who are talking to a homeowner can effectively tell the homeowner about their

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business?

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So I use this as an example.

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My wife one time had somebody into the house and she said to the person, she did know what

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I did for a living, so they didn't help much.

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She sort of baited the guy, but she said, tell me about your business.

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Tell me about your company.

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And he said, well, it's a small company and I guess that's the way we like it.

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So that's all there is.

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Well, what did she learn?

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What did he share?

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Nothing.

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What's the value proposition?

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Exactly.

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So I think you need to be able to explain to the homeowner a brief history of the company,

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how long it's been in business.

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It doesn't matter whether it's small or large, each one can bring a different value to the

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homeowner.

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Be able to explain that and how you go to business.

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And when you're talking to somebody, talking about the training that is put on by the business

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and the fact that they're licensed and have insurance and pull permits and things like

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that, that's huge value.

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And if you're able to do that, your competition isn't.

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So you've already built something that the competition can't build, which means the competition

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is going to gravitate to the price, the lowest possible denominator, right?

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Whereas you're building value and you're going to generate better income, more profitable

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business than the other guy.

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We're talking about training and a conversation that we had, I think it's extremely important

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to talk about because a lot of contractors may not understand the potential that there

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is in that.

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There was a time where manufacturer training was really just focused on specific equipment

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changes.

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If I was getting training from my manufacturer, I was going to learn what has changed since

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the previous model of equipment that I have been working on.

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And that has made a shift at Linux.

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And I'd love for us to talk about that a little bit.

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Well, in our small group, we're kind of a business within a business.

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We provide skill-based training.

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So as an example, we have two levels of build attacks.

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So we are encouraging contractors to go out, hire somebody green, maybe some technical

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capabilities, but hire somebody-

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No industry experience.

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No industry experience, somebody with the right attitude and give them to us for three

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weeks.

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And after three weeks, they'll come out of the class with an EPA certificate.

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They'll have a chance to challenge their NAIT ready to work certificate.

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And they will be ready to go get in a truck and start running maintenance calls all day

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long and do tune-ups on furnaces and air conditioners very professionally.

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After a period of time, and they're ready to move on into a service situation where

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it will become a service tech, bring it back to build the tech level two.

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And after three weeks of that, they will have an opportunity to challenge their NAIT certification

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with specialties.

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And they'll be ready then to start actually properly diagnosing problems with the furnace

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or the air conditioner and knowing what they need to do in order to fix it.

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And so purely a skill-based product.

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Now in our labs, it's all Lennox products.

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So we're teaching them on Lennox product, but let's face it, the heating cycle or the

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air conditioning cycle, the cooling cycle is primarily the same no matter who makes

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it.

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So we're really teaching the skill.

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And we do the same thing on the sales and business side.

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We teach people how to properly sell in this industry, giving homeowners four options,

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not just one.

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Let the homeowner choose what works best for them, identifying what their wants and their

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needs are, identifying what the house actually needs, and putting it all together, presenting

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some options to the homeowner and let the homeowner choose.

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And I think too many people in the industry take that off away from the homeowner.

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And today's consumer doesn't want to be sold to.

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They want to know what their choices are and they want to make choice.

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And we have to remember that they're the people that are actually going to pay the money.

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And as long as we build value and the consumer believes that the value that they're getting

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is worth the price they're paying, they'll pay it.

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It's not all about lowest possible price.

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They want something that's going to work, that's going to make them comfortable in their

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homes, and they're prepared to pay for that.

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Yeah, indeed.

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All comes down to just being prepared for our consumer and being willing to evolve.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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And we talked about that earlier and how this business has evolved since the 1980s through

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to now.

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I've been in the business a long time when I start talking about the 1980s, but as I

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said to you earlier, I remember when Lennox came out with the first 90% efficient furnace

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called The Pulse and everybody thought that we'd hit the maximum back then.

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Now we're talking about 99% efficient furnaces.

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Amazing.

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New technologies, new transitions.

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Yes.

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Dave Nichols is wonderful talking to you.

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I really look forward to the opportunity to get to meet you and hang out in a classroom.

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And by the way, in the early 2000s in my area, I was one of two people, my mentor and I were

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the only technicians in about three counties that could work on the Lennox Pulse.

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There you go.

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I've set pressures many a times and changed diagrams.

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Well sir, it's wonderful talking to you and we'll be talking again soon.

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I look forward to it.

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Have a great rest of your day.