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Tales from the trenches, stories forged in the fires of experience.

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This episode brought to you by Air Doctors, heating, cooling, refrigeration and duct cleaning.

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A family owned business serving the greater Detroit area.

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Learn more at airdoctorshvacservice.com.

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Alright everyone, thank you for joining us again on Did You Know?

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The ESCO HVAC Podcast.

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So today we're spending some time with Brynn Cooksey from Air Doctors, Heating and Cooling.

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How are you doing my friend?

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I'm good, how are you doing Cooksey?

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I'm doing well.

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You know Brynn and I have been working on high performance heat pumps and putting together

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curriculum for doing the proper evaluating of a system.

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And we have a lot of consumers that are looking to electrify, right?

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And we have a lot of jurisdictions that are removing even gas connections on new constructions.

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So we're having to re-look at a home and Brynn remember the old days when like every air

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conditioner you walked up to was like a ton or ton and a half bigger than it was supposed

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to be?

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I do.

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And they never ran right.

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It still happens.

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It still happens.

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And you would think like decades later we would finally go maybe we should actually

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figure out what we need instead of just putting something in and then the next guy putting

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a half ton bigger and then the next guy putting a half ton bigger and the next guy going wait

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a minute I got a five ton unit on a 1200 square foot home in the Midwest.

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Absolutely.

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I wonder why it's freezing up.

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Yeah why doesn't this thing work?

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Why does it only run for like two minutes and shuts off?

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But we laugh about this and we really have to start thinking about the future.

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You know as we start transitioning away from single stage and two stage equipment into

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modulating equipment it's crucial to size properly and it's even more important to try

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to reduce the load as much as possible.

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So then when we're looking at equipment we're making sure that we're actually sizing for

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the heating and the cooling load of the structure to make sure that we have a balance.

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And so it really gets into product selection at that point.

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So let's talk about some of the let's talk about some of the horror stories from the

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trenches that you're finding out here in the field or real real life scenarios by not doing

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things properly.

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Absolutely.

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So I'll tell you starting out we we partnered with an organization here locally in Michigan

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and we were tasked to for about 40 Detroit residents, city of Detroit residents to install

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a heat pump and basically get that customer to electrify or go do a fuel and then kind

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of see what what it looked like was it feasible in our climate and then give that data to

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the state of Michigan for for them to help make their rebate rules.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And they're handled by states.

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So that's the thing.

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A lot of people understand that.

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You know, yeah, we got these this funds that came about through the IRA through the Inflation

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Reduction Act, but it's been distributed through the states.

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And so some states have even just went, whoa, we don't even know where to begin.

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We don't want it.

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Like, how about you just don't even give it to us and we'll figure it out.

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I mean, I've got one of those states right here next to me.

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So, you know, and then you got states that are like, no, we really we really need to.

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You know, we've got we've got legislation that's forcing us to look at electric options

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for heating.

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And, you know, with electric resistive heating, it's only a coefficient of performance around

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a one.

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Right.

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So, you know, if I've got a lot of electricity and producing a lot of heat, three point four

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one two BTUs or so.

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And then we get into heat pumps.

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Well, now we have equipment that can produce three, four, four and a half, you know, COP

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at you know, at decent temperatures.

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And a lot of them that will run down.

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I've seen some here recently run as low as minus twenty two.

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I've got one on my house that runs down to like minus twenty or twenty one or so.

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But if we don't select the right ones, we can get into even more trouble than we've

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seen when we had with the oversight of air conditioners.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And with that program, when we before I got involved, there were several that went in

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and they were grossly oversized.

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So kind of one of the first things we learned, we already knew it, but it's just now with

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the focus on heat pumps, it was a lot more apparent is if you go fully electric with

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air source heat pump and backup resistive heat, if you don't weatherize that shell,

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you're going to place that customer significantly.

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Find out your burden.

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All right.

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The heat pump is going to run.

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That resistive heat is going to kick in and the bills are going to be high.

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So maybe when we got involved with this particular program, the first I'll say handful, we actually

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had to pull out redo because those heat pumps went in.

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They were not correctly sized.

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The shell wasn't tight or weatherized.

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And then a ducks report.

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So when we talk about heat pumps, Clifton, we have to go back to the basics is low calc

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conduct design.

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Like those have to be the core fundamental design practices and they can't be, you can't

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shoot from the hip.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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There's no guessing anymore.

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No, not.

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And especially with the tools that are available, there are some pretty sweet low calc tools

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where you can scan it and this is a 10 minute job or process.

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And there's really no excuse now because the stakes are high, especially with this investment,

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which is significant for the nation, if these heat pumps going in, going incorrectly, it

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may be all for nothing.

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So no, for some foremost, low calc conduct design, they have to be absolutely a hundred

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percent correct where heat pumps.

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The second thing we were seeing was a, was sizing.

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So what some states were trying to figure out, especially in colder climates, like here

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in Michigan is if we size it to the heating low, that happens to grossly oversize the

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air conditioning load.

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Right.

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And with some of the manual S guidance from ACCA, we know that even if it modulates, you

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really don't want to be above 30% oversize because you'll still have humidity control

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problems in the summertime.

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So that's something that, you know, a lot of people were not considering is that if

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you go for the heating low and let's say the shell can't handle it, you still had to have

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some kind of supplemental dehumidification in order to control humidity.

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Cause you just didn't have the runtime with the equipment.

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So those were some pretty big lessons and some of the pilot programs that I've been

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involved with here in Michigan that were absolutely like eye opening.

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Like if we don't get this right, our residents are going to be in some big trouble.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And when we look at the operation of an inverter, it is very different than a single or two

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stage unit.

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You know, on a traditional single stage heat pump, you let it go and it just ran until

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it killed itself.

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And a lot of compressors were murdered because they were never set up properly from the beginning.

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They never had airflow checked.

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And when we get into an inverter, airflow is even more critical with an inverter.

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You know, we're actually operating, many inverters are operating on discharge temperatures.

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So we're monitoring the compression ratio of that compressor.

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So we know what the inlet, the suction temperature is.

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We know what our discharge temperature, and we're going to modulate based on discharge

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temperature.

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But there's another factor that goes into play with that when we get into airflow.

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So with an inverter, we're also being introduced into a variable speed blower.

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Most of the time, a true variable, not just an ECM constant torque, but a true variable.

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And so a true variable is actually responding to back EMF.

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And soon as it starts seeing static pressure over about 0.8 inches, they start freaking

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out, man.

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And they will do what they need to to protect themselves.

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And so a lot of manufacturers above 0.8, they'll actually start throwing blower fault codes.

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They'll still run, but they reduce the capacity of the blower to maintain static pressure.

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And these inverters are based like if it's in cooling, it's running off from superheat.

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So if I don't have as much moving across the coil, the outdoor unit's not going to ramp

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up properly.

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And then in heating mode, if I'm moving too much heat and I don't have enough air to move

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it, it's going to see those high discharge temperatures and it's going to modulate on

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back down.

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And so it never has the ability to run at its true capacity in heating or in cooling.

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Yeah.

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And it just kills them.

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It kills them.

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It kills them big time.

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And that comes from a low calc and duct design.

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So the bad habits of yesteryear where we can go in, we can replace the four-seater furnace.

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The ducts were small.

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They were leaking, but the discharge temperature was warm enough where maybe you didn't get

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the customer complaints.

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Yeah.

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What heat pumps, that's just not feasible anymore.

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You're dealing with lower discharge air temperatures.

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You know, you have to have more airflow.

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So you're going to have more issues that are going to be related to improper design.

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So with these heat pumps, we have to kind of step back and make sure that training is

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adequate for all these technicians and contractors so that way it's done properly.

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Yeah.

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And when we look at the training for that, you know, there was a time a couple of decades

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ago where you could be brand A installer.

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I can be brand B installer.

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You and I could go through the exact same training program and we can go out in the

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field and we could both install our products pretty easily, pretty significantly, right?

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Because they were very, very similar in design.

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But as we start moving into VRF and inverter technology, not every manufacturer designs

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there's the same.

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Some of them you have controls that you can manipulate and adjust.

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Some of them you can't.

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You know, we're seeing heat pumps that from the outside appears to be a pretty nice looking

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heat pump until you realize that it actually shuts off at five degrees Fahrenheit.

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I mean, it will not even run.

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And then you've got other manufacturers that say, well, we're just going to keep on running

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until we can't run until we're just constantly defrosting and then we'll just finally shut

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off and that's all that you get.

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So there's a lot of moving parts in the industry.

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And as we start getting into cold climate heat pumps, like Jason, Objut and I were just

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down at Oak Ridge National Lab, the DOE lab down in Oak Ridge, Tennessee last week.

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And we were looking at different variations that they're experimenting with on being able

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to create heat pumps that work really well in cold climates, not just inverter, but like

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single and two stage systems like twin compressors or we had some that had vapor injection.

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And so we're looking at all these technologies going, man, you know, things are things are

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changing and that box that you pull out might not look like the box you just put in at the

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last job.

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No, it is really scary because now it, you know, I used to be able to tell customers

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there was a point in time, my air conditioner, I can carry most of the parts outside the

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compressor on my truck.

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That's right.

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You know, and I can service an air conditioner pretty quick.

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Now not only are you going to have to kind of the fundamental training, you're going

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to have to go to those different manufacturers and get the specifics on each of that equipment.

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You mentioned a point of all the different technology came that's coming out.

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And again, is foundation is going to be based on proper low calcs and duct design.

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Well, we also learn here in Michigan, when you are dealing with a heat pump situation,

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if the shell is not going to be weatherized, let's say maybe it's not in a scope of budget,

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then dual fuel is probably going to be your best bet.

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Yeah, I'm all about dual fuel.

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I love a good heat pump, but I get down below zero and my heat pump is just running, running,

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running, running.

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I can think about compressor run time and motor run times.

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And I know it's not drawn a lot, but it's running and you know, and it's running continuously.

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And so I myself am still an advocate for a good high efficiency dual fuel system.

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Absolutely.

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You can get modulating gas furnaces if you want.

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I've got a little 60,000 BTU that'll modulate down to like 9,000 BTU.

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Really?

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Yeah, we've got very, very good modulating equipment.

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We've got good two stage equipment anymore.

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There's no reason that we can't get a quality gas furnace with a good mid tier heat pump

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and let that heat pump take care of us until we get down to, you know, until we start getting

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down to the load point and we look at it and we go, okay, this thing is just running, running,

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running.

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Let's just switch it over.

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Let's just find a good balance point and then we can start maximizing our efficiency from

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the pocket.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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When a dual fuel, you get the best of both worlds.

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Like you mentioned, I can run an air source heat pump with my economical balance point

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and I can take advantage of it's not just cost effective with the electric rates.

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And then once it gets too cold, you know, I can kick in that, that, that gas heating.

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And like you mentioned, the furnaces are super sophisticated.

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Now you got two stage and modulating that will take care of those deep coal months that

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you need to support.

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And I think that's the way to go in cold climates.

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If the shell isn't modified.

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I know some people are kind of diehard electrification.

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They want to move the combustion gases.

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I still think it has a place is going to be tough to remove them completely.

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Absolutely.

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And I was just talking to Bob O'Brien from Nora a few weeks ago.

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He's actually going to be on a podcast again here pretty soon.

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And we were talking about, you know, like renewable natural gases, right?

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So we're moving into an era where we have the ability to produce fuels, not, not gasoline,

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but we can produce gases that can replace some of our natural gases.

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So renewable naturals.

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And so when we start looking to that, we think, well, you know, that buys us a lot of time.

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Yeah.

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We're going to run out of oil.

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We're going to, you know, this is going to happen.

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Yeah, the straw is siphoning the well.

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We went from the 1980s straw to like the modern McDonald's straw.

250
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That's like, you know, three eighths of an inch.

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The oil is going to go, but you know, if we can transition to high efficiency furnaces,

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00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,440
yank out that old 70 to 75% efficient furnace I've got in this house.

253
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I mean, it's only like five years old.

254
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,240
It's got a 95% single stage furnace, right?

255
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I'm not super fond of a single stage furnace, but it's a 95% single stage furnace.

256
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I mean, it's, it's the bare bones of the high efficiency.

257
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And a few years ago, you know, if I was, if I was working on a house and it had a 75%

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single stage furnace and I threw in a 95% single stage furnace, man, that's a massive

259
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improvement on your fuel cost.

260
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Yeah.

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Especially what, what we improperly size.

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I know we ran a study in 2021 and we kind of disclosed this at the Espo conference last

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year and out of about 3,800 homes, the furnace and the air conditioners, I'll say the furnaces

264
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,440
were grossly oversized by 50% or more.

265
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And then the air conditioning was oversized by a ton or more.

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So you can get some significant energy savings by designing it properly, putting it in just

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because you don't have the waste.

268
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Yeah, that's it.

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We are so stuck on these rule of thumb numbers and those rule of thumb numbers have been

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gone since we put insulation in homes.

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Absolutely.

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Don't even apply anymore.

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I'll tell people like as much as I'm, I would love to have a better furnace and a heat pump

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00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,640
on this when it was new, they did a good job doing a load calculation on it.

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It's 3,100 square feet and it's got a 60,000 BTU single stage furnace that at 10 below

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runs 50% of the time.

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Yep.

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Somebody did their job and it just shows that you can use smaller pieces of equipment in

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the correct applications.

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A funny story, about I'll say five years ago, our house and I hadn't had the time to change

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00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,360
it, but our equipment was grossly oversized.

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So in our house, it was about 2,600 square feet.

283
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We had a 125,080 percenter and one weekend I finally carved out the time and we were

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going to change it out.

285
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:26,880
And when we changing it out, we're bringing a small 60,000 two stage 96% furnace in and

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00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,560
my wife was just looking out and she was freaking out.

287
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,680
She looked at the contrast and she said, that's not going to heat our house.

288
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,480
What kind of discount did you get on that, Brian?

289
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:36,480
Come on.

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This is our house.

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I know I get it.

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00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:44,880
I had to put her, you know, her fierce arrest and say, Hey Jay, you know, it's going to

293
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,360
work, I promise if it doesn't, I'll rip it up with the right size in.

294
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920
And it was in a kind of early fall.

295
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,760
We did it in that winter and it got cold.

296
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And I was like, do you notice anything?

297
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,720
And she was like, well, no, I was like, exactly.

298
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That furnace is keeping up.

299
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,640
That's half the size that it was.

300
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And she was a believer at that point.

301
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So no, it's, this stuff works when you put the axe in the ground.

302
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,160
Yeah, absolutely.

303
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,160
It is.

304
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,280
You know, when we talk about like gas furnaces, I would rather a gas furnace just run and

305
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:18,600
run at a nice medium range, temperature rise, just let her go.

306
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It's running very, very efficiently.

307
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And I have that heat pump that takes care of me most of the time.

308
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Absolutely.

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And it's a, just a phenomenal combination.

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And I know, you know, we got places that are not allowing gas connections and we're forced

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to do complete electrification and that's okay.

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We're here for you too.

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And we're going to help you find the right stuff and make those correct selections.

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But boy, when you make the wrong selections, it can haunt you.

315
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:49,040
And that's what I fear the most going forward into a full inverter generation of equipment

316
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,560
is we're going to see more of that.

317
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:52,560
Absolutely.

318
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Yeah.

319
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,400
Like I said, we've pulled out about four or five that we just missed it.

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00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,560
The guys, Mr. Mark putting it in and with the investment that we're getting into our

321
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,080
communities and stuff like that, I just don't want heat pumps to take a bad rap when really

322
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,280
it's the building science, it's the low cost stuff that has to be done in order for this

323
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,280
stuff to work.

324
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:13,280
Yeah.

325
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,440
And so Renee had some estimates here a while back.

326
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,600
So it was right in the middle of winter.

327
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,480
She was looking to upgrade equipment.

328
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,120
She called four contractors in that Chicago area.

329
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:27,720
All four of them told her she didn't want a heat pump and they didn't work in Chicago.

330
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:28,720
Yep.

331
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,840
And you're a hundred miles north of there.

332
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,840
Yeah.

333
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:40,080
So, you know, when they're done right, they absolutely work, but you have to make the

334
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,720
consumer aware of that.

335
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:42,720
Yeah.

336
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:48,160
We can absolutely get you into a good heat pump, but let's also be realistic and look

337
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,360
at what you have and see what the best scenario is for you.

338
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:58,840
You might not need a 22 sear modulating inverter with an electric assistive backup heating.

339
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:04,360
You might be really happy with a 95 or 96% gas furnace and a 16 or 17 sear modulating

340
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:05,360
or a two stage.

341
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,400
And your bills drop like a rock.

342
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,440
And it's a good running system.

343
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,960
It's got great capacity and heating, great capacity and cooling.

344
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,000
It's got good equal airflow between heating and cooling because equipment was sized and

345
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,600
it's balanced together properly.

346
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,120
I mean, to me it's just, it's a no brainer.

347
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,080
You have that, that contractor resistance.

348
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,960
I think guys like you and I will have to continue to tackle and talk to contractors to make

349
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,040
sure that they understand that things are not the way they used to be.

350
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,440
The technology is there to make this a lot more practical for cooler climates and that

351
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:39,800
it can be done.

352
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,960
So I know we have some resistance here locally.

353
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,120
And I know you sit on several DOE committees where you're, matter of fact, tasked to help

354
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,280
contractors not resist.

355
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,260
And I think with training, proper training, they'll kind of come around.

356
00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:54,260
That's it.

357
00:19:54,260 --> 00:19:56,960
I know there are three contractors that were, I talked to one in Canada.

358
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,680
He was on a podcast here.

359
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,120
It's been a couple of months ago and Kevin Fritinski.

360
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:10,160
And so he's up in Canada and that was predominantly fuel, oil and gas.

361
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,760
And they're actually doing almost completely heat pump installations now.

362
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,840
Now that's not saying that they're not dual fuel, but they're actually for their sales,

363
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,220
they're selling heat pumps on most installations.

364
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:27,460
Some of them, because there's jurisdictions in Canada even that will not allow gas connections.

365
00:20:27,460 --> 00:20:32,480
Some of them are straight heat pump, but most of their installations are heat pump with

366
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:33,720
gas back.

367
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:39,400
So looking at that hybrid solution is really an important thing because then you're solving

368
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,400
both, right?

369
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:41,400
Absolutely.

370
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,800
And we're reducing our energy consumption and we're maximizing the comfort for the

371
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,840
homeowner at the same time.

372
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:47,840
Absolutely.

373
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:55,160
And that is, we have some communities in Michigan that are going to be specifying electric only.

374
00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,160
And as a contractor, for those who are hearing this, make sure you have a good conversation

375
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,520
about the cut with the customer about making sure that the shale is adequate.

376
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,500
Worse thing you can do, I've seen some scenarios where a customer had a maybe a mid efficiency

377
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:15,480
four step furnace in a all electric system went in and the house wasn't weatherized and

378
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,640
their bill went from like 300 bucks a month to 900, which is not sustainable.

379
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,040
So it's like that customer is going to pull that equipment out.

380
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,420
They're going to get upset and get rid of it.

381
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:32,980
So if it is an all electric situation and you're forced by the authority having jurisdiction,

382
00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:37,680
make sure that shale is properly designed to accommodate that.

383
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:38,680
Because heat pumps are different.

384
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,800
They have lower discharge air temperatures.

385
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,040
You have all these other factors that you need to account for.

386
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,040
Yeah, indeed.

387
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,200
It's a changing world, isn't it?

388
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,240
Very, very much so.

389
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,320
I just, I like for our audience to know that we are here for you.

390
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,200
We have seen changes.

391
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,040
I don't know that I've seen any as drastic as the changes that we're making right now.

392
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,300
I mean, even when I was in the refrigeration and we were phasing out CFCs and I was working

393
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:12,120
on 1950s, you know, Coke coolers and dirty old pizza ovens and pizza prep tables that

394
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:16,200
we were converting from 12 to 414.

395
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,880
You know, there was a lot of transition then, but that was just a refrigerant transition.

396
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,240
And so now we have refrigerant transitions as well as technology transitions all happen

397
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:26,240
at the same time.

398
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,080
We've got homeowners that are confused.

399
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,280
We've got contractors that are confused.

400
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:36,200
And we just want you to feel safe here with us.

401
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:42,960
Almost say experienced technicians.

402
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,520
All right, Bryn Cooksey, it's just, it's always a pleasure talking to you.

403
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,640
I can't wait to hang out at the National HVACR Education Conference and just any opportunity

404
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,840
we get to hang out and preach to the industry that it's changing.

405
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:56,840
It's okay.

406
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,840
We're here to support you and just reach out to us for help.

407
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:00,840
Get over that Clifton.

408
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,840
Thanks for having me.

409
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,840
Good to see you as always.

410
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,840
You too, my friend.

411
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,840
Thanks for having me.