Tales from the trenches, stories forged in the fires of experience.
This episode brought to you by Air Doctors, heating, cooling, refrigeration and duct cleaning.
A family owned business serving the greater Detroit area.
Learn more at airdoctorshvacservice.com.
Alright everyone, thank you for joining us again on Did You Know?
The ESCO HVAC Podcast.
So today we're spending some time with Brynn Cooksey from Air Doctors, Heating and Cooling.
How are you doing my friend?
I'm good, how are you doing Cooksey?
I'm doing well.
You know Brynn and I have been working on high performance heat pumps and putting together
curriculum for doing the proper evaluating of a system.
And we have a lot of consumers that are looking to electrify, right?
And we have a lot of jurisdictions that are removing even gas connections on new constructions.
So we're having to re-look at a home and Brynn remember the old days when like every air
conditioner you walked up to was like a ton or ton and a half bigger than it was supposed
to be?
I do.
And they never ran right.
It still happens.
And you would think like decades later we would finally go maybe we should actually
figure out what we need instead of just putting something in and then the next guy putting
a half ton bigger and then the next guy putting a half ton bigger and the next guy going wait
a minute I got a five ton unit on a 1200 square foot home in the Midwest.
Absolutely.
I wonder why it's freezing up.
Yeah why doesn't this thing work?
Why does it only run for like two minutes and shuts off?
But we laugh about this and we really have to start thinking about the future.
You know as we start transitioning away from single stage and two stage equipment into
modulating equipment it's crucial to size properly and it's even more important to try
to reduce the load as much as possible.
So then when we're looking at equipment we're making sure that we're actually sizing for
the heating and the cooling load of the structure to make sure that we have a balance.
And so it really gets into product selection at that point.
So let's talk about some of the let's talk about some of the horror stories from the
trenches that you're finding out here in the field or real real life scenarios by not doing
things properly.
Absolutely.
So I'll tell you starting out we we partnered with an organization here locally in Michigan
and we were tasked to for about 40 Detroit residents, city of Detroit residents to install
a heat pump and basically get that customer to electrify or go do a fuel and then kind
of see what what it looked like was it feasible in our climate and then give that data to
the state of Michigan for for them to help make their rebate rules.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And they're handled by states.
So that's the thing.
A lot of people understand that.
You know, yeah, we got these this funds that came about through the IRA through the Inflation
Reduction Act, but it's been distributed through the states.
And so some states have even just went, whoa, we don't even know where to begin.
We don't want it.
Like, how about you just don't even give it to us and we'll figure it out.
I mean, I've got one of those states right here next to me.
So, you know, and then you got states that are like, no, we really we really need to.
You know, we've got we've got legislation that's forcing us to look at electric options
for heating.
And, you know, with electric resistive heating, it's only a coefficient of performance around
a one.
Right.
So, you know, if I've got a lot of electricity and producing a lot of heat, three point four
one two BTUs or so.
And then we get into heat pumps.
Well, now we have equipment that can produce three, four, four and a half, you know, COP
at you know, at decent temperatures.
And a lot of them that will run down.
I've seen some here recently run as low as minus twenty two.
I've got one on my house that runs down to like minus twenty or twenty one or so.
But if we don't select the right ones, we can get into even more trouble than we've
seen when we had with the oversight of air conditioners.
Absolutely.
And with that program, when we before I got involved, there were several that went in
and they were grossly oversized.
So kind of one of the first things we learned, we already knew it, but it's just now with
the focus on heat pumps, it was a lot more apparent is if you go fully electric with
air source heat pump and backup resistive heat, if you don't weatherize that shell,
you're going to place that customer significantly.
Find out your burden.
All right.
The heat pump is going to run.
That resistive heat is going to kick in and the bills are going to be high.
So maybe when we got involved with this particular program, the first I'll say handful, we actually
had to pull out redo because those heat pumps went in.
They were not correctly sized.
The shell wasn't tight or weatherized.
And then a ducks report.
So when we talk about heat pumps, Clifton, we have to go back to the basics is low calc
conduct design.
Like those have to be the core fundamental design practices and they can't be, you can't
shoot from the hip.
Yeah.
Yep.
There's no guessing anymore.
No, not.
And especially with the tools that are available, there are some pretty sweet low calc tools
where you can scan it and this is a 10 minute job or process.
And there's really no excuse now because the stakes are high, especially with this investment,
which is significant for the nation, if these heat pumps going in, going incorrectly, it
may be all for nothing.
So no, for some foremost, low calc conduct design, they have to be absolutely a hundred
percent correct where heat pumps.
The second thing we were seeing was a, was sizing.
So what some states were trying to figure out, especially in colder climates, like here
in Michigan is if we size it to the heating low, that happens to grossly oversize the
air conditioning load.
Right.
And with some of the manual S guidance from ACCA, we know that even if it modulates, you
really don't want to be above 30% oversize because you'll still have humidity control
problems in the summertime.
So that's something that, you know, a lot of people were not considering is that if
you go for the heating low and let's say the shell can't handle it, you still had to have
some kind of supplemental dehumidification in order to control humidity.
Cause you just didn't have the runtime with the equipment.
So those were some pretty big lessons and some of the pilot programs that I've been
involved with here in Michigan that were absolutely like eye opening.
Like if we don't get this right, our residents are going to be in some big trouble.
Yeah, absolutely.
And when we look at the operation of an inverter, it is very different than a single or two
stage unit.
You know, on a traditional single stage heat pump, you let it go and it just ran until
it killed itself.
And a lot of compressors were murdered because they were never set up properly from the beginning.
They never had airflow checked.
And when we get into an inverter, airflow is even more critical with an inverter.
You know, we're actually operating, many inverters are operating on discharge temperatures.
So we're monitoring the compression ratio of that compressor.
So we know what the inlet, the suction temperature is.
We know what our discharge temperature, and we're going to modulate based on discharge
temperature.
But there's another factor that goes into play with that when we get into airflow.
So with an inverter, we're also being introduced into a variable speed blower.
Most of the time, a true variable, not just an ECM constant torque, but a true variable.
And so a true variable is actually responding to back EMF.
And soon as it starts seeing static pressure over about 0.8 inches, they start freaking
out, man.
And they will do what they need to to protect themselves.
And so a lot of manufacturers above 0.8, they'll actually start throwing blower fault codes.
They'll still run, but they reduce the capacity of the blower to maintain static pressure.
And these inverters are based like if it's in cooling, it's running off from superheat.
So if I don't have as much moving across the coil, the outdoor unit's not going to ramp
up properly.
And then in heating mode, if I'm moving too much heat and I don't have enough air to move
it, it's going to see those high discharge temperatures and it's going to modulate on
back down.
And so it never has the ability to run at its true capacity in heating or in cooling.
Yeah.
And it just kills them.
It kills them.
It kills them big time.
And that comes from a low calc and duct design.
So the bad habits of yesteryear where we can go in, we can replace the four-seater furnace.
The ducts were small.
They were leaking, but the discharge temperature was warm enough where maybe you didn't get
the customer complaints.
Yeah.
What heat pumps, that's just not feasible anymore.
You're dealing with lower discharge air temperatures.
You know, you have to have more airflow.
So you're going to have more issues that are going to be related to improper design.
So with these heat pumps, we have to kind of step back and make sure that training is
adequate for all these technicians and contractors so that way it's done properly.
Yeah.
And when we look at the training for that, you know, there was a time a couple of decades
ago where you could be brand A installer.
I can be brand B installer.
You and I could go through the exact same training program and we can go out in the
field and we could both install our products pretty easily, pretty significantly, right?
Because they were very, very similar in design.
But as we start moving into VRF and inverter technology, not every manufacturer designs
there's the same.
Some of them you have controls that you can manipulate and adjust.
Some of them you can't.
You know, we're seeing heat pumps that from the outside appears to be a pretty nice looking
heat pump until you realize that it actually shuts off at five degrees Fahrenheit.
I mean, it will not even run.
And then you've got other manufacturers that say, well, we're just going to keep on running
until we can't run until we're just constantly defrosting and then we'll just finally shut
off and that's all that you get.
So there's a lot of moving parts in the industry.
And as we start getting into cold climate heat pumps, like Jason, Objut and I were just
down at Oak Ridge National Lab, the DOE lab down in Oak Ridge, Tennessee last week.
And we were looking at different variations that they're experimenting with on being able
to create heat pumps that work really well in cold climates, not just inverter, but like
single and two stage systems like twin compressors or we had some that had vapor injection.
And so we're looking at all these technologies going, man, you know, things are things are
changing and that box that you pull out might not look like the box you just put in at the
last job.
No, it is really scary because now it, you know, I used to be able to tell customers
there was a point in time, my air conditioner, I can carry most of the parts outside the
compressor on my truck.
That's right.
You know, and I can service an air conditioner pretty quick.
Now not only are you going to have to kind of the fundamental training, you're going
to have to go to those different manufacturers and get the specifics on each of that equipment.
You mentioned a point of all the different technology came that's coming out.
And again, is foundation is going to be based on proper low calcs and duct design.
Well, we also learn here in Michigan, when you are dealing with a heat pump situation,
if the shell is not going to be weatherized, let's say maybe it's not in a scope of budget,
then dual fuel is probably going to be your best bet.
Yeah, I'm all about dual fuel.
I love a good heat pump, but I get down below zero and my heat pump is just running, running,
running, running.
I can think about compressor run time and motor run times.
And I know it's not drawn a lot, but it's running and you know, and it's running continuously.
And so I myself am still an advocate for a good high efficiency dual fuel system.
Absolutely.
You can get modulating gas furnaces if you want.
I've got a little 60,000 BTU that'll modulate down to like 9,000 BTU.
Really?
Yeah, we've got very, very good modulating equipment.
We've got good two stage equipment anymore.
There's no reason that we can't get a quality gas furnace with a good mid tier heat pump
and let that heat pump take care of us until we get down to, you know, until we start getting
down to the load point and we look at it and we go, okay, this thing is just running, running,
running.
Let's just switch it over.
Let's just find a good balance point and then we can start maximizing our efficiency from
the pocket.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
When a dual fuel, you get the best of both worlds.
Like you mentioned, I can run an air source heat pump with my economical balance point
and I can take advantage of it's not just cost effective with the electric rates.
And then once it gets too cold, you know, I can kick in that, that, that gas heating.
And like you mentioned, the furnaces are super sophisticated.
Now you got two stage and modulating that will take care of those deep coal months that
you need to support.
And I think that's the way to go in cold climates.
If the shell isn't modified.
I know some people are kind of diehard electrification.
They want to move the combustion gases.
I still think it has a place is going to be tough to remove them completely.
Absolutely.
And I was just talking to Bob O'Brien from Nora a few weeks ago.
He's actually going to be on a podcast again here pretty soon.
And we were talking about, you know, like renewable natural gases, right?
So we're moving into an era where we have the ability to produce fuels, not, not gasoline,
but we can produce gases that can replace some of our natural gases.
So renewable naturals.
And so when we start looking to that, we think, well, you know, that buys us a lot of time.
Yeah.
We're going to run out of oil.
We're going to, you know, this is going to happen.
Yeah, the straw is siphoning the well.
We went from the 1980s straw to like the modern McDonald's straw.
That's like, you know, three eighths of an inch.
The oil is going to go, but you know, if we can transition to high efficiency furnaces,
yank out that old 70 to 75% efficient furnace I've got in this house.
I mean, it's only like five years old.
It's got a 95% single stage furnace, right?
I'm not super fond of a single stage furnace, but it's a 95% single stage furnace.
I mean, it's, it's the bare bones of the high efficiency.
And a few years ago, you know, if I was, if I was working on a house and it had a 75%
single stage furnace and I threw in a 95% single stage furnace, man, that's a massive
improvement on your fuel cost.
Yeah.
Especially what, what we improperly size.
I know we ran a study in 2021 and we kind of disclosed this at the Espo conference last
year and out of about 3,800 homes, the furnace and the air conditioners, I'll say the furnaces
were grossly oversized by 50% or more.
And then the air conditioning was oversized by a ton or more.
So you can get some significant energy savings by designing it properly, putting it in just
because you don't have the waste.
Yeah, that's it.
We are so stuck on these rule of thumb numbers and those rule of thumb numbers have been
gone since we put insulation in homes.
Absolutely.
Don't even apply anymore.
I'll tell people like as much as I'm, I would love to have a better furnace and a heat pump
on this when it was new, they did a good job doing a load calculation on it.
It's 3,100 square feet and it's got a 60,000 BTU single stage furnace that at 10 below
runs 50% of the time.
Yep.
Somebody did their job and it just shows that you can use smaller pieces of equipment in
the correct applications.
A funny story, about I'll say five years ago, our house and I hadn't had the time to change
it, but our equipment was grossly oversized.
So in our house, it was about 2,600 square feet.
We had a 125,080 percenter and one weekend I finally carved out the time and we were
going to change it out.
And when we changing it out, we're bringing a small 60,000 two stage 96% furnace in and
my wife was just looking out and she was freaking out.
She looked at the contrast and she said, that's not going to heat our house.
What kind of discount did you get on that, Brian?
Come on.
This is our house.
I know I get it.
I had to put her, you know, her fierce arrest and say, Hey Jay, you know, it's going to
work, I promise if it doesn't, I'll rip it up with the right size in.
And it was in a kind of early fall.
We did it in that winter and it got cold.
And I was like, do you notice anything?
And she was like, well, no, I was like, exactly.
That furnace is keeping up.
That's half the size that it was.
And she was a believer at that point.
So no, it's, this stuff works when you put the axe in the ground.
Yeah, absolutely.
It is.
You know, when we talk about like gas furnaces, I would rather a gas furnace just run and
run at a nice medium range, temperature rise, just let her go.
It's running very, very efficiently.
And I have that heat pump that takes care of me most of the time.
Absolutely.
And it's a, just a phenomenal combination.
And I know, you know, we got places that are not allowing gas connections and we're forced
to do complete electrification and that's okay.
We're here for you too.
And we're going to help you find the right stuff and make those correct selections.
But boy, when you make the wrong selections, it can haunt you.
And that's what I fear the most going forward into a full inverter generation of equipment
is we're going to see more of that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Like I said, we've pulled out about four or five that we just missed it.
The guys, Mr. Mark putting it in and with the investment that we're getting into our
communities and stuff like that, I just don't want heat pumps to take a bad rap when really
it's the building science, it's the low cost stuff that has to be done in order for this
stuff to work.
Yeah.
And so Renee had some estimates here a while back.
So it was right in the middle of winter.
She was looking to upgrade equipment.
She called four contractors in that Chicago area.
All four of them told her she didn't want a heat pump and they didn't work in Chicago.
Yep.
And you're a hundred miles north of there.
Yeah.
So, you know, when they're done right, they absolutely work, but you have to make the
consumer aware of that.
Yeah.
We can absolutely get you into a good heat pump, but let's also be realistic and look
at what you have and see what the best scenario is for you.
You might not need a 22 sear modulating inverter with an electric assistive backup heating.
You might be really happy with a 95 or 96% gas furnace and a 16 or 17 sear modulating
or a two stage.
And your bills drop like a rock.
And it's a good running system.
It's got great capacity and heating, great capacity and cooling.
It's got good equal airflow between heating and cooling because equipment was sized and
it's balanced together properly.
I mean, to me it's just, it's a no brainer.
You have that, that contractor resistance.
I think guys like you and I will have to continue to tackle and talk to contractors to make
sure that they understand that things are not the way they used to be.
The technology is there to make this a lot more practical for cooler climates and that
it can be done.
So I know we have some resistance here locally.
And I know you sit on several DOE committees where you're, matter of fact, tasked to help
contractors not resist.
And I think with training, proper training, they'll kind of come around.
That's it.
I know there are three contractors that were, I talked to one in Canada.
He was on a podcast here.
It's been a couple of months ago and Kevin Fritinski.
And so he's up in Canada and that was predominantly fuel, oil and gas.
And they're actually doing almost completely heat pump installations now.
Now that's not saying that they're not dual fuel, but they're actually for their sales,
they're selling heat pumps on most installations.
Some of them, because there's jurisdictions in Canada even that will not allow gas connections.
Some of them are straight heat pump, but most of their installations are heat pump with
gas back.
So looking at that hybrid solution is really an important thing because then you're solving
both, right?
Absolutely.
And we're reducing our energy consumption and we're maximizing the comfort for the
homeowner at the same time.
Absolutely.
And that is, we have some communities in Michigan that are going to be specifying electric only.
And as a contractor, for those who are hearing this, make sure you have a good conversation
about the cut with the customer about making sure that the shale is adequate.
Worse thing you can do, I've seen some scenarios where a customer had a maybe a mid efficiency
four step furnace in a all electric system went in and the house wasn't weatherized and
their bill went from like 300 bucks a month to 900, which is not sustainable.
So it's like that customer is going to pull that equipment out.
They're going to get upset and get rid of it.
So if it is an all electric situation and you're forced by the authority having jurisdiction,
make sure that shale is properly designed to accommodate that.
Because heat pumps are different.
They have lower discharge air temperatures.
You have all these other factors that you need to account for.
Yeah, indeed.
It's a changing world, isn't it?
Very, very much so.
I just, I like for our audience to know that we are here for you.
We have seen changes.
I don't know that I've seen any as drastic as the changes that we're making right now.
I mean, even when I was in the refrigeration and we were phasing out CFCs and I was working
on 1950s, you know, Coke coolers and dirty old pizza ovens and pizza prep tables that
we were converting from 12 to 414.
You know, there was a lot of transition then, but that was just a refrigerant transition.
And so now we have refrigerant transitions as well as technology transitions all happen
at the same time.
We've got homeowners that are confused.
We've got contractors that are confused.
And we just want you to feel safe here with us.
Almost say experienced technicians.
All right, Bryn Cooksey, it's just, it's always a pleasure talking to you.
I can't wait to hang out at the National HVACR Education Conference and just any opportunity
we get to hang out and preach to the industry that it's changing.
It's okay.
We're here to support you and just reach out to us for help.
Get over that Clifton.
Thanks for having me.
Good to see you as always.
You too, my friend.
Thanks for having me.