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Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.

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This episode brought to you by Hitachi.

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You call it harmony, we call it air.

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Learn more at Hitachiaircon.com.

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All right everyone, thank you for joining us once again on Did You Know?

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The Esco HVAC Podcast.

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So this time we have the wonderful opportunity to spend some time with Enes Uzel.

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How are you sir?

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Good, thank you.

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So Ines is the VRF product manager for Hitachi and we are all starting to become more aware

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of the technological transitions that we are in as well as refrigerant transitions.

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There's a lot of things that are happening in the industry and it's a very exciting

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time but with that also comes the awareness and the education and the training on these

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new products.

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So in the VRF market you have a new product that is getting ready to hit the ground called

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the Air 365 Max.

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Tell me a little bit about this new transition in the VRF side of things.

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So for Air 365 Max this is going to be our latest and greatest gen 3 product and we are

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going to brand it under heat force.

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As you know with the heat pump transition there's a huge demand for heating products.

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So our current VRF lineup can do heating down to minus 13 Fahrenheit and we are expanding

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that heating range down to minus 22 Fahrenheit.

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And we are introducing the first vapor injection compressor with Hitachi.

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I'm not sure if you have read about Hitachi's background on compressors but Hitachi was

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the first company to invent the scroll compressors which is widely used in the industry today.

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So we are taking that a step further and now we are introducing vapor injection inverter

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scroll compressors for VRF products.

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So we have just launched this product and we have it available for sale in the market

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and we have the training center, we have set up the product and we have very new features

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that's also coming with the product called Air Cloud Tab where you can connect to the

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outdoor unit and the indoor unit with your phone and do a variety of function selections,

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you can read data from it, you can program the unit, all the deep three settings, you

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can do all those things from your smartphone.

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Wow, I'm very excited about that.

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When we start talking about innovations in equipment we don't always talk about the innovations

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in the digital technology that comes along with that.

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I'm very much about non-invasive diagnostics, not using refrigerant gauges until you think

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you actually have a refrigerant problem, utilizing our inputs from our thermistors and our pressure

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transducers and understanding how these systems are operating and now we're actually doing

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that directly from the input from the app, right?

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Exactly, exactly.

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So when you look at the VRF everybody is at first intimidated by the amount of technology

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that goes into it.

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It's very labor intensive they think.

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It's a lot of, like you said, pressure transducers, thermistors, pressure sensors, there's a lot

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of valves and checkpoints.

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But at the end of the day it makes life that much simpler because you can read data from

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all those things via your service checker or now we are introducing the Air Cloud Tab,

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you can read the data with your smartphone throughout the unit.

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You can see all the data points from your smartphone.

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Without plugging in a laptop and a cable and looking for a charging connection.

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Exactly, exactly.

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I always make the analogy to the transitions that we made in the automotive industry a

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couple of decades ago.

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There was a time where a lot of technicians can work on a variety of different manufacturers

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of equipment and they were hands-on.

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They were having to use a lot of tools to be able to analyze timing of an engine and

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fuel mixtures.

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So now as we move into digital technology, we're making that same leap where we're using

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all of the inputs that are within the components themselves to analyze what those outputs are,

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have a better understanding of how it's operating.

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And I really look forward to these next generations of technicians that are using this technology

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for fine tuning.

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They're using it for installation and commissioning.

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And so we get these really high performing systems that are actually quite intriguing

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to work on instead of now what we used to look at as challenging, it's now intriguing

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and enjoyable.

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Exactly.

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So, you know, right now when you have a VRF unit, you have an error code and all you have

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is a very old style seven segment.

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I got a blinky light.

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I got a binary code.

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Exactly.

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Where do I begin?

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You have to read the code.

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You have to go to your engineering manual, see what's going on and figure out the issue,

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what that code means.

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Yeah, work, they're my workflow.

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You start diagnostic the unit and then work backwards and fix the unit.

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But with the AirCloud tab, what you can do, you don't even have to open the panel to look

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at the seven segment display, which already we keep that there for backup.

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But what you download the AirCloud app on your smartphone, you bring it next to the

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condensing unit.

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There is little plastic port.

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It has a little NFC symbol.

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Oh yeah, near field connected.

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Oh, fantastic.

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So you utilize a near field communication technology and that you bring your phone close

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to it's like checking out with an Apple Pay.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You bring your iPhone to that area and then it starts pulling the information from the

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unit.

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So not only you can read the error code and find out what's the error code mean, but also

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you can get five minutes of data prior to the error code so you can see what was happening

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and what led to that error code.

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What led that?

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Was it a higher pressure?

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Exactly.

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Maybe you were leaking the fridge somewhere and you know, your pressures were low.

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You can diagnose units based on the information you're pulling from that.

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Oh my gosh.

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You know, we talk about the lack of technicians that we have, the amount of technicians we

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need to bring into the HVAC refrigeration industry.

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And I'm a big advocate of, well, yeah, it's always nice to bring in more people.

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If we could make our people more efficient by utilizing technology, that's the whole

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key.

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I mean, think about that.

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If I had a high pressure scenario and I could go back five minutes and go, oh, high current

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on condenser fan motor.

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I just lost a condenser fan motor that caused my high pressure.

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Let me start my condenser fan motor and check this before I even get into refrigeration

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cycles.

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It could just save so much time when it comes to troubleshooting.

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Exactly.

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Also for commissioning too.

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So again, for VRF systems, we have tons of deep switches on the PCBs.

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So depending on your setup, how you're setting up the connection ratios, what type of indoor

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unit you have, how many modules of outdoor condensing unit, all these have to be programmed

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via deep switches.

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But we are eliminating that step.

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They don't have to take out the front panel, get into deep switch settings.

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They just have to do those settings on their smartphone and they can copy and paste settings

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between different condensing units, be it 50 condensing units, they literally copy and

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paste the same settings.

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You gotta be kidding me.

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I'm really excited to see this.

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It saves tons of hours for commissioning and initial installation.

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And that's always the thing.

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When we look at that stigma of walking up to a VRF on an installation and commissioning,

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a lot of technicians go, oh man, I've got all of these settings that I go through.

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And typically when I do an instructional class, I go, well, they're there if you need them

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and we have things that we need to change because we are gonna do a custom setup for

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this particular application.

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And don't be afraid of all of the options.

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You just be aware of what they are so that we know what ones we need to adjust going

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into this custom installation.

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And so by utilizing that where we can actually connect to the piece of equipment, we can

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do our setups.

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It lets us focus on the total system instead of getting detoured into manual dip switch

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settings and retrieval.

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And our technical service, so for instance, if something is wrong with the dip switch

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settings, right?

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We have a technical support center based in the Dallas, Texas area.

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They reach out to our tech support and dip switch settings are wrong.

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So our tech support can literally fix the dip switch setting on their end and send the

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new setting to the contractor on the field.

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And from his phone, he can push those settings into the...

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Push the update.

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No kidding.

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So we can directly interact with the condensing units from our technical support center here

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in Dallas, Texas.

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I've been looking forward to this technology for so long.

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It really is.

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So we can look at things in real time.

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And we've been playing with this software for a number of years.

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And it's just a lot of times we had to have right connections, we had to have right cellular

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connections.

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And now when we start talking about near field communication, it just makes that so much

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easier and faster to do that direct connect link.

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So yeah, very, very intrigued about that.

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And we're talking about a system when you were mentioning like the vapor injection working

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at minus 22 operating conditions, that's bringing in a new level of efficiency that a lot of

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people can't even really wrap their head around.

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Because now we're talking about COPs that are even above five.

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We're talking about a COP of up to 5.12 on this piece of equipment.

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Exactly.

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That's a lot of efficiency.

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So yeah, that was the main aim when we came up with this product.

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It's actually TouchAir 365 Max heat force.

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So the reason we call it heat force, it has amazing heating performance.

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Like you mentioned, it's 5.1 COP.

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And down to minus 13, we still offer 100% of our rated heating capacity.

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Really?

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And at minus 22, we can maintain our 88, 89% of our rated heating capacity.

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You've got to be kidding me.

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Exactly.

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That's the future of our industry.

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Yes.

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So I'm seeing a lot of other heat pumps that can go down, but they're not able to push

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that much of COP.

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So if you have a heat pump, if you're one to one COP, you might as well use an electric

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heater, right?

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Absolutely.

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If your COP is so low.

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The reason of switching to heat pump is that efficiency, that high COP.

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So when you go down to minus 22, minus 15, those kind of temperature, if you can maintain

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the high COP and your heating capacity as high as it's rated initially, that's an amazing

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product.

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That's what I will look for if I'm purchasing a heat pump product.

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Yeah, I absolutely will as well.

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So when we start talking about reducing our carbon footprint, when we talk about there's

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a variety of different terms we can utilize for electrification, degasification, decarbonization,

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it's really about making a global effort to reduce our energy consumption, to push to

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new product capabilities.

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And I've seen things like our DOE's initiative for the cool climate heat pump challenge,

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which has encouraged our OEMs to start pushing the boundaries in technology and innovations.

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And this is it.

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This is what we have been striving to get to.

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This exactly, exactly.

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This product we are really happy to announce.

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Like Hitachi brand name, all of our products are tested for reliability for those low temperatures

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in order to maintain those high capacities.

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We really have to push our compressors to its limits.

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And we have had a lot of issues with the compressors to get it to this point where they are reliable

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and operate for years and years without having any issues.

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So we got those compressors pinned down.

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Our designs are reliable, all of Hitachi products, especially VRF, they're all made in Japan

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with the quality control and the reliability test that it's been through.

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And this product recently is launched and we have it available for our customers to

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order as of today.

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Awesome.

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Fantastic.

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Well, I really appreciate that.

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I'm so excited about the transitions that we're making in our industry.

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And I think we're going to take the opportunity to bring Bahadir in.

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And we're going to talk about the transitions that we're making in the residential sector,

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because you've got a product that intrigues me in a couple different perspectives.

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Bahadir, how are you, sir?

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Thank you so much.

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Thanks a lot for this opportunity.

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How about you?

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I'm doing well.

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I'm really excited about the way that we're going to be looking at our industry going

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forward in the residential as well as the commercial industrial sectors, but in the

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residential particularly.

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I'm a big advocate of monobloc air to water transitions in our industry.

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You know, if we're going to make this transition happen, we have to start looking and thinking

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outside of the box.

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Correct.

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And the new Yutaki really kind of does that.

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So the question is, how is it moving forward?

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The fact is, the way that we have decided to think about Yutaki, because Yutaki was

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a line card for our European region for at least one decade, and we were doing a great

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job in Europe, but for US market it was always a kind of question mark in our minds.

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But as time goes by, as you know, things are changing very quickly.

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Each and every change means problems, and each and every problem means a solution.

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Each and every solution means opportunities.

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So the first and foremost, electrification, because we knew that electrification means

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tons of changes in regards to different disciplines.

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First and foremost, we have observed certain bands from New York, New Jersey, and California

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states regarding natural gas consumption for the new buildings.

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And then the question was, all right, so what are the impacts?

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What are the outcomes for the homeowners?

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What are the outcomes for the contractors?

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Long story short, for those new constructions, especially for domestic output regenerations,

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they have to go for electrification.

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But what will be the solution?

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So again, this was the question.

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And on the other side, we all know that a trial transition is not going to happen within

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one sequence, right?

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So we are looking future, somewhere around 2029, most likely another round, is for the

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AIM and is for the Kigali Amendment.

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So in that regards, the GWP level, if you look at the rules, most likely it is going

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to be less than 150 GWPs.

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Actually, the second question, all right, so the first question was what might be the

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perfect replacement for natural gas applications?

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And the second question is what might be the perfect solution for the second round of transition,

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A12 transition, somewhere around 2029?

259
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And the third question was, which is impacting today, right?

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So we all know that A12 systems requires more intention from multiple sides, from manufacturer

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side, from engineers, from contractors, from inspectors.

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There must be some calculations and all that, all those type of things.

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So the best solution is not to use those refrigerants.

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So you can keep those refrigerants outside of your building.

265
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But how?

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Again, it was the third question.

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So Yutake was the perfect solution for all those problems.

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With Yutake monobalock system, you don't have any refrigerant inside of your building.

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Exactly.

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This is number one.

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So even though today, even after 2029, even suppose hypothetically, if you decide to use

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propane, which has a lower GWP, lower than 150, flammability wise, it may not be the

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best refrigerant, but thermodynamically characteristics wise, in regards to cooling and heating, it

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is way more better than majority of the refrigerants, conventional refrigerants.

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So in the case of Yutake, whenever we keep the refrigerant outside of the building, again,

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it might be a great solution.

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The second thing is natural gas, right?

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So again, today we are consuming natural gas for multiple areas, for heating, for domestic

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hot water generation.

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But in that regards, what would be the solution?

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Again, Yutake.

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Yutake system with monobalock air to water heat pump system, you can generate hot water

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in a closed loop.

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You can utilize that hot water to create domestic hot water and you can run that hot water from

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your fan coils and you can warm up your house.

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So that's why we have decided to bring Yutake line cart to USA market and everything is

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moving forward.

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It is the second year that we have announced.

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I think Darcy, if I'm not wrong, two years ago we brought the system to HRR show and

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the last year we had a running system in the booth.

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The feedbacks are awesome.

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So mass production, hopefully we're going to go within two to three months.

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And we know that it is just the beginning of the journey because it is a complete new

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concept for the players in the market.

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But we do believe that there will be good amount of market size for each and every decision

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maker in the United States, also in Canada.

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I personally believe it's our solution.

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I had the opportunity to interview Nick Reynolds at the introduction of the Yutake at the 2023

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AHR show and it really struck the interest because I started realizing, okay, I got to

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think outside of the box here and thinking about our long-term solutions and that's

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exactly what we're talking about.

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How do we remove the refrigerants from indoor so we don't have to be concerned with our

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flammabilities or our toxicities and the higher operating pressures?

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How do we rethink and re-engineer residential systems?

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And it's actually it's very simple.

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We just look at our commercial applications.

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That's all we do.

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So we move a heat pump chiller into a residential application, get rid of the refrigerant lines.

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Voila.

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So the conceptually it is 100% correct.

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But the beauty of Yutake is it is perfectly designed for contractors because as all we

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know that, I mean, if our starting point is commercial heat pump chillers, in order to

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commission a heat pump chiller, you have to have people who will circulate the pump.

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You have to deal with that kind of...

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Design the circulation.

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Exactly.

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On the other side, you have to have a kind of proper engineering background in order

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to come up with the controls, algorithms, VMSs.

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With the commercial heat pump chiller, they are awesome.

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We love them, but it will require multiple type of teams integrations.

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So it is not like kind of plug and play solution.

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With Yutake, it is something like that because in Yutake system, we have our own integrated

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centrifugal pump.

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This is number one.

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All the refrigerants outside, you don't need to deal with leak sensors.

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You don't need to deal with shuttles valves because all the refrigerant is outside.

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For instance, for different type of applications, because hydronic growth is endless.

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We all know that.

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So you can come up with a domestic hot water generation system for a restaurant.

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You can only target for a good amount of domestic hot water tanks or one other person in electrification

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or you can come up with a residential application.

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In that regards, you will need one cycle for conditioning.

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Another cycle for domestic hot water.

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So all these type of cycles means somebody needs to control them.

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Somebody needs to control the system.

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Somebody needs to meet the expectations of the end user.

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So in that regards, do we need controls to engineering involvement?

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The answer is no because Yutake is coming up with a plug and play, a PCBA.

339
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So the contractors can use signal wires, connect them to the outboard unit and then they can

340
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program everything by using Yutake's controls.

341
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So it is a pure plug and play solution.

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So that's why we do believe the acceptance is going to be way more easier than all the

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other type of feed disciplines.

344
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,640
Yeah, I completely get that.

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Whether we're talking about residential or commercial applications, we have to get comfortable

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with water in our industry.

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I mean, as HVAC technicians, when we look at our two primary industries we're talking

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about that are making transitions, we're talking about HVAC refrigeration, we're also talking

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about plumbing.

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And for the plumbing sector, it's a very significant leap to move into inverter technology, to

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move into controls and automations where if you talk to an HVAC refrigeration or building

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automations, you're talking to people who have already been introduced into the technologies.

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They just have to step outside of their mentality and go, well, I can do this with water now

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as well.

355
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And I'm really not transitioning very far.

356
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:21,960
So it makes sense for the HVAC refrigeration industry to be the movers forward of this

357
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technology and to start embracing it a little bit.

358
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:26,760
Absolutely.

359
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,640
It is not 100% designed for HVAC folks.

360
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:36,040
It is not perfectly designed for plumbing world, but both sectors can jump in and, you

361
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,960
know, try to come up with their own type of applications because these line cards, let's

362
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:42,960
be clear, right?

363
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:50,120
So this type of products has been sold in Europe for the last two decades, we can say.

364
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:54,120
Our experience is from both industries, right?

365
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:59,240
From plumbing and from HVAC, from both industries, all the contractors are trying to be the part

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of this trend.

367
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But you are absolutely right.

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HVAC contractors, I can say they are way more motivated to be the part of this type of transitions

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because they are capable to come up with heat load calculations.

370
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They know the building codes.

371
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,520
I don't want to say way more better than that, but let's say that they are more experienced.

372
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,560
Yeah, exactly.

373
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,160
So it is a great transition for multiple sectors.

374
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,160
It is.

375
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,640
And we really have to be realistic.

376
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,440
When we look at the Kigali Amendment, when we look at the technology transition rule,

377
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,600
when we look at the AIM Act, we recognize that we are going through a pretty steep HFC

378
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,160
phase down in actually a short period of time.

379
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,280
I personally don't think we are going to make it to the 2036 phase down of HFCs.

380
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,400
I think we are going to need to get there much sooner.

381
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:57,960
I think the reclamation factor is going to escalate our need to look at low GWP refrigerants

382
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,680
and to move the refrigerants outdoor, whether or not involved with the interior building

383
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:03,680
codes.

384
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,480
And I think that Yutaki is that first step to get people comfortable with, you know,

385
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,800
all right, you know these refrigerants.

386
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,760
Now let's use these refrigerants for a slightly different purpose.

387
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:17,040
And then as we move forward, at some point we'll go, okay, now you know how to condition

388
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,560
water for heating and cooling purposes.

389
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,520
Now let's use a different refrigerant.

390
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,800
And now we can make this final transition into natural refrigerants very smooth and

391
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:27,800
very easy.

392
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,440
So I'm a big advocate of the direction that you're going with at Yutaki.

393
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,440
Absolutely.

394
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,440
Excellent.

395
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,640
All right, Ines Bahadir, I thank you so much for joining us.

396
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,160
I'm grateful to have the time and I look forward to seeing the Hadachi facility here in the

397
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,400
near future and appreciate what you're doing for our industry.

398
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,400
Absolutely.

399
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,400
It will be an honor.

400
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:47,400
Thank you so much.

401
00:23:47,400 --> 00:24:07,800
Okay, have a nice day.