Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.
This episode brought to you by Hitachi.
You call it harmony, we call it air.
Learn more at Hitachiaircon.com.
All right everyone, thank you for joining us once again on Did You Know?
The Esco HVAC Podcast.
So this time we have the wonderful opportunity to spend some time with Enes Uzel.
How are you sir?
Good, thank you.
So Ines is the VRF product manager for Hitachi and we are all starting to become more aware
of the technological transitions that we are in as well as refrigerant transitions.
There's a lot of things that are happening in the industry and it's a very exciting
time but with that also comes the awareness and the education and the training on these
new products.
So in the VRF market you have a new product that is getting ready to hit the ground called
the Air 365 Max.
Tell me a little bit about this new transition in the VRF side of things.
So for Air 365 Max this is going to be our latest and greatest gen 3 product and we are
going to brand it under heat force.
As you know with the heat pump transition there's a huge demand for heating products.
So our current VRF lineup can do heating down to minus 13 Fahrenheit and we are expanding
that heating range down to minus 22 Fahrenheit.
And we are introducing the first vapor injection compressor with Hitachi.
I'm not sure if you have read about Hitachi's background on compressors but Hitachi was
the first company to invent the scroll compressors which is widely used in the industry today.
So we are taking that a step further and now we are introducing vapor injection inverter
scroll compressors for VRF products.
So we have just launched this product and we have it available for sale in the market
and we have the training center, we have set up the product and we have very new features
that's also coming with the product called Air Cloud Tab where you can connect to the
outdoor unit and the indoor unit with your phone and do a variety of function selections,
you can read data from it, you can program the unit, all the deep three settings, you
can do all those things from your smartphone.
Wow, I'm very excited about that.
When we start talking about innovations in equipment we don't always talk about the innovations
in the digital technology that comes along with that.
I'm very much about non-invasive diagnostics, not using refrigerant gauges until you think
you actually have a refrigerant problem, utilizing our inputs from our thermistors and our pressure
transducers and understanding how these systems are operating and now we're actually doing
that directly from the input from the app, right?
Exactly, exactly.
So when you look at the VRF everybody is at first intimidated by the amount of technology
that goes into it.
It's very labor intensive they think.
It's a lot of, like you said, pressure transducers, thermistors, pressure sensors, there's a lot
of valves and checkpoints.
But at the end of the day it makes life that much simpler because you can read data from
all those things via your service checker or now we are introducing the Air Cloud Tab,
you can read the data with your smartphone throughout the unit.
You can see all the data points from your smartphone.
Without plugging in a laptop and a cable and looking for a charging connection.
Exactly, exactly.
I always make the analogy to the transitions that we made in the automotive industry a
couple of decades ago.
There was a time where a lot of technicians can work on a variety of different manufacturers
of equipment and they were hands-on.
They were having to use a lot of tools to be able to analyze timing of an engine and
fuel mixtures.
So now as we move into digital technology, we're making that same leap where we're using
all of the inputs that are within the components themselves to analyze what those outputs are,
have a better understanding of how it's operating.
And I really look forward to these next generations of technicians that are using this technology
for fine tuning.
They're using it for installation and commissioning.
And so we get these really high performing systems that are actually quite intriguing
to work on instead of now what we used to look at as challenging, it's now intriguing
and enjoyable.
Exactly.
So, you know, right now when you have a VRF unit, you have an error code and all you have
is a very old style seven segment.
I got a blinky light.
I got a binary code.
Exactly.
Where do I begin?
You have to read the code.
You have to go to your engineering manual, see what's going on and figure out the issue,
what that code means.
Yeah, work, they're my workflow.
You start diagnostic the unit and then work backwards and fix the unit.
But with the AirCloud tab, what you can do, you don't even have to open the panel to look
at the seven segment display, which already we keep that there for backup.
But what you download the AirCloud app on your smartphone, you bring it next to the
condensing unit.
There is little plastic port.
It has a little NFC symbol.
Oh yeah, near field connected.
Oh, fantastic.
So you utilize a near field communication technology and that you bring your phone close
to it's like checking out with an Apple Pay.
Yeah, absolutely.
You bring your iPhone to that area and then it starts pulling the information from the
unit.
So not only you can read the error code and find out what's the error code mean, but also
you can get five minutes of data prior to the error code so you can see what was happening
and what led to that error code.
What led that?
Was it a higher pressure?
Exactly.
Maybe you were leaking the fridge somewhere and you know, your pressures were low.
You can diagnose units based on the information you're pulling from that.
Oh my gosh.
You know, we talk about the lack of technicians that we have, the amount of technicians we
need to bring into the HVAC refrigeration industry.
And I'm a big advocate of, well, yeah, it's always nice to bring in more people.
If we could make our people more efficient by utilizing technology, that's the whole
key.
I mean, think about that.
If I had a high pressure scenario and I could go back five minutes and go, oh, high current
on condenser fan motor.
I just lost a condenser fan motor that caused my high pressure.
Let me start my condenser fan motor and check this before I even get into refrigeration
cycles.
It could just save so much time when it comes to troubleshooting.
Exactly.
Also for commissioning too.
So again, for VRF systems, we have tons of deep switches on the PCBs.
So depending on your setup, how you're setting up the connection ratios, what type of indoor
unit you have, how many modules of outdoor condensing unit, all these have to be programmed
via deep switches.
But we are eliminating that step.
They don't have to take out the front panel, get into deep switch settings.
They just have to do those settings on their smartphone and they can copy and paste settings
between different condensing units, be it 50 condensing units, they literally copy and
paste the same settings.
You gotta be kidding me.
I'm really excited to see this.
It saves tons of hours for commissioning and initial installation.
And that's always the thing.
When we look at that stigma of walking up to a VRF on an installation and commissioning,
a lot of technicians go, oh man, I've got all of these settings that I go through.
And typically when I do an instructional class, I go, well, they're there if you need them
and we have things that we need to change because we are gonna do a custom setup for
this particular application.
And don't be afraid of all of the options.
You just be aware of what they are so that we know what ones we need to adjust going
into this custom installation.
And so by utilizing that where we can actually connect to the piece of equipment, we can
do our setups.
It lets us focus on the total system instead of getting detoured into manual dip switch
settings and retrieval.
And our technical service, so for instance, if something is wrong with the dip switch
settings, right?
We have a technical support center based in the Dallas, Texas area.
They reach out to our tech support and dip switch settings are wrong.
So our tech support can literally fix the dip switch setting on their end and send the
new setting to the contractor on the field.
And from his phone, he can push those settings into the...
Push the update.
No kidding.
So we can directly interact with the condensing units from our technical support center here
in Dallas, Texas.
I've been looking forward to this technology for so long.
It really is.
So we can look at things in real time.
And we've been playing with this software for a number of years.
And it's just a lot of times we had to have right connections, we had to have right cellular
connections.
And now when we start talking about near field communication, it just makes that so much
easier and faster to do that direct connect link.
So yeah, very, very intrigued about that.
And we're talking about a system when you were mentioning like the vapor injection working
at minus 22 operating conditions, that's bringing in a new level of efficiency that a lot of
people can't even really wrap their head around.
Because now we're talking about COPs that are even above five.
We're talking about a COP of up to 5.12 on this piece of equipment.
Exactly.
That's a lot of efficiency.
So yeah, that was the main aim when we came up with this product.
It's actually TouchAir 365 Max heat force.
So the reason we call it heat force, it has amazing heating performance.
Like you mentioned, it's 5.1 COP.
And down to minus 13, we still offer 100% of our rated heating capacity.
Really?
And at minus 22, we can maintain our 88, 89% of our rated heating capacity.
You've got to be kidding me.
Exactly.
That's the future of our industry.
Yes.
So I'm seeing a lot of other heat pumps that can go down, but they're not able to push
that much of COP.
So if you have a heat pump, if you're one to one COP, you might as well use an electric
heater, right?
Absolutely.
If your COP is so low.
The reason of switching to heat pump is that efficiency, that high COP.
So when you go down to minus 22, minus 15, those kind of temperature, if you can maintain
the high COP and your heating capacity as high as it's rated initially, that's an amazing
product.
That's what I will look for if I'm purchasing a heat pump product.
Yeah, I absolutely will as well.
So when we start talking about reducing our carbon footprint, when we talk about there's
a variety of different terms we can utilize for electrification, degasification, decarbonization,
it's really about making a global effort to reduce our energy consumption, to push to
new product capabilities.
And I've seen things like our DOE's initiative for the cool climate heat pump challenge,
which has encouraged our OEMs to start pushing the boundaries in technology and innovations.
And this is it.
This is what we have been striving to get to.
This exactly, exactly.
This product we are really happy to announce.
Like Hitachi brand name, all of our products are tested for reliability for those low temperatures
in order to maintain those high capacities.
We really have to push our compressors to its limits.
And we have had a lot of issues with the compressors to get it to this point where they are reliable
and operate for years and years without having any issues.
So we got those compressors pinned down.
Our designs are reliable, all of Hitachi products, especially VRF, they're all made in Japan
with the quality control and the reliability test that it's been through.
And this product recently is launched and we have it available for our customers to
order as of today.
Awesome.
Fantastic.
Well, I really appreciate that.
I'm so excited about the transitions that we're making in our industry.
And I think we're going to take the opportunity to bring Bahadir in.
And we're going to talk about the transitions that we're making in the residential sector,
because you've got a product that intrigues me in a couple different perspectives.
Bahadir, how are you, sir?
Thank you so much.
Thanks a lot for this opportunity.
How about you?
I'm doing well.
I'm really excited about the way that we're going to be looking at our industry going
forward in the residential as well as the commercial industrial sectors, but in the
residential particularly.
I'm a big advocate of monobloc air to water transitions in our industry.
You know, if we're going to make this transition happen, we have to start looking and thinking
outside of the box.
Correct.
And the new Yutaki really kind of does that.
So the question is, how is it moving forward?
The fact is, the way that we have decided to think about Yutaki, because Yutaki was
a line card for our European region for at least one decade, and we were doing a great
job in Europe, but for US market it was always a kind of question mark in our minds.
But as time goes by, as you know, things are changing very quickly.
Each and every change means problems, and each and every problem means a solution.
Each and every solution means opportunities.
So the first and foremost, electrification, because we knew that electrification means
tons of changes in regards to different disciplines.
First and foremost, we have observed certain bands from New York, New Jersey, and California
states regarding natural gas consumption for the new buildings.
And then the question was, all right, so what are the impacts?
What are the outcomes for the homeowners?
What are the outcomes for the contractors?
Long story short, for those new constructions, especially for domestic output regenerations,
they have to go for electrification.
But what will be the solution?
So again, this was the question.
And on the other side, we all know that a trial transition is not going to happen within
one sequence, right?
So we are looking future, somewhere around 2029, most likely another round, is for the
AIM and is for the Kigali Amendment.
So in that regards, the GWP level, if you look at the rules, most likely it is going
to be less than 150 GWPs.
Actually, the second question, all right, so the first question was what might be the
perfect replacement for natural gas applications?
And the second question is what might be the perfect solution for the second round of transition,
A12 transition, somewhere around 2029?
And the third question was, which is impacting today, right?
So we all know that A12 systems requires more intention from multiple sides, from manufacturer
side, from engineers, from contractors, from inspectors.
There must be some calculations and all that, all those type of things.
So the best solution is not to use those refrigerants.
So you can keep those refrigerants outside of your building.
But how?
Again, it was the third question.
So Yutake was the perfect solution for all those problems.
With Yutake monobalock system, you don't have any refrigerant inside of your building.
Exactly.
This is number one.
So even though today, even after 2029, even suppose hypothetically, if you decide to use
propane, which has a lower GWP, lower than 150, flammability wise, it may not be the
best refrigerant, but thermodynamically characteristics wise, in regards to cooling and heating, it
is way more better than majority of the refrigerants, conventional refrigerants.
So in the case of Yutake, whenever we keep the refrigerant outside of the building, again,
it might be a great solution.
The second thing is natural gas, right?
So again, today we are consuming natural gas for multiple areas, for heating, for domestic
hot water generation.
But in that regards, what would be the solution?
Again, Yutake.
Yutake system with monobalock air to water heat pump system, you can generate hot water
in a closed loop.
You can utilize that hot water to create domestic hot water and you can run that hot water from
your fan coils and you can warm up your house.
So that's why we have decided to bring Yutake line cart to USA market and everything is
moving forward.
It is the second year that we have announced.
I think Darcy, if I'm not wrong, two years ago we brought the system to HRR show and
the last year we had a running system in the booth.
The feedbacks are awesome.
So mass production, hopefully we're going to go within two to three months.
And we know that it is just the beginning of the journey because it is a complete new
concept for the players in the market.
But we do believe that there will be good amount of market size for each and every decision
maker in the United States, also in Canada.
I personally believe it's our solution.
I had the opportunity to interview Nick Reynolds at the introduction of the Yutake at the 2023
AHR show and it really struck the interest because I started realizing, okay, I got to
think outside of the box here and thinking about our long-term solutions and that's
exactly what we're talking about.
How do we remove the refrigerants from indoor so we don't have to be concerned with our
flammabilities or our toxicities and the higher operating pressures?
How do we rethink and re-engineer residential systems?
And it's actually it's very simple.
We just look at our commercial applications.
That's all we do.
So we move a heat pump chiller into a residential application, get rid of the refrigerant lines.
Voila.
So the conceptually it is 100% correct.
But the beauty of Yutake is it is perfectly designed for contractors because as all we
know that, I mean, if our starting point is commercial heat pump chillers, in order to
commission a heat pump chiller, you have to have people who will circulate the pump.
You have to deal with that kind of...
Design the circulation.
Exactly.
On the other side, you have to have a kind of proper engineering background in order
to come up with the controls, algorithms, VMSs.
With the commercial heat pump chiller, they are awesome.
We love them, but it will require multiple type of teams integrations.
So it is not like kind of plug and play solution.
With Yutake, it is something like that because in Yutake system, we have our own integrated
centrifugal pump.
This is number one.
All the refrigerants outside, you don't need to deal with leak sensors.
You don't need to deal with shuttles valves because all the refrigerant is outside.
For instance, for different type of applications, because hydronic growth is endless.
We all know that.
So you can come up with a domestic hot water generation system for a restaurant.
You can only target for a good amount of domestic hot water tanks or one other person in electrification
or you can come up with a residential application.
In that regards, you will need one cycle for conditioning.
Another cycle for domestic hot water.
So all these type of cycles means somebody needs to control them.
Somebody needs to control the system.
Somebody needs to meet the expectations of the end user.
So in that regards, do we need controls to engineering involvement?
The answer is no because Yutake is coming up with a plug and play, a PCBA.
So the contractors can use signal wires, connect them to the outboard unit and then they can
program everything by using Yutake's controls.
So it is a pure plug and play solution.
So that's why we do believe the acceptance is going to be way more easier than all the
other type of feed disciplines.
Yeah, I completely get that.
Whether we're talking about residential or commercial applications, we have to get comfortable
with water in our industry.
I mean, as HVAC technicians, when we look at our two primary industries we're talking
about that are making transitions, we're talking about HVAC refrigeration, we're also talking
about plumbing.
And for the plumbing sector, it's a very significant leap to move into inverter technology, to
move into controls and automations where if you talk to an HVAC refrigeration or building
automations, you're talking to people who have already been introduced into the technologies.
They just have to step outside of their mentality and go, well, I can do this with water now
as well.
And I'm really not transitioning very far.
So it makes sense for the HVAC refrigeration industry to be the movers forward of this
technology and to start embracing it a little bit.
Absolutely.
It is not 100% designed for HVAC folks.
It is not perfectly designed for plumbing world, but both sectors can jump in and, you
know, try to come up with their own type of applications because these line cards, let's
be clear, right?
So this type of products has been sold in Europe for the last two decades, we can say.
Our experience is from both industries, right?
From plumbing and from HVAC, from both industries, all the contractors are trying to be the part
of this trend.
But you are absolutely right.
HVAC contractors, I can say they are way more motivated to be the part of this type of transitions
because they are capable to come up with heat load calculations.
They know the building codes.
I don't want to say way more better than that, but let's say that they are more experienced.
Yeah, exactly.
So it is a great transition for multiple sectors.
It is.
And we really have to be realistic.
When we look at the Kigali Amendment, when we look at the technology transition rule,
when we look at the AIM Act, we recognize that we are going through a pretty steep HFC
phase down in actually a short period of time.
I personally don't think we are going to make it to the 2036 phase down of HFCs.
I think we are going to need to get there much sooner.
I think the reclamation factor is going to escalate our need to look at low GWP refrigerants
and to move the refrigerants outdoor, whether or not involved with the interior building
codes.
And I think that Yutaki is that first step to get people comfortable with, you know,
all right, you know these refrigerants.
Now let's use these refrigerants for a slightly different purpose.
And then as we move forward, at some point we'll go, okay, now you know how to condition
water for heating and cooling purposes.
Now let's use a different refrigerant.
And now we can make this final transition into natural refrigerants very smooth and
very easy.
So I'm a big advocate of the direction that you're going with at Yutaki.
Absolutely.
Excellent.
All right, Ines Bahadir, I thank you so much for joining us.
I'm grateful to have the time and I look forward to seeing the Hadachi facility here in the
near future and appreciate what you're doing for our industry.
Absolutely.
It will be an honor.
Thank you so much.
Okay, have a nice day.