1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,180 Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry. 2 00:00:09,180 --> 00:00:15,140 This episode brought to you by NORA, advancing a zero carbon home heating future. 3 00:00:15,140 --> 00:00:23,340 Learn more at NORA, noraweb.org. 4 00:00:23,340 --> 00:00:24,340 Well hello everyone. 5 00:00:24,340 --> 00:00:25,340 Thank you for joining us. 6 00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:29,440 We're hanging out again at the National HVACR Education Conference. 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:35,040 This time I'm sitting down with my friend Bob O'Brien, Director of Education for NORA 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:41,400 and also very involved in OESP, a variety of different aspects of the energy side of 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,400 our industry. 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:43,400 Yes. 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,460 So how are things going? 12 00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:47,460 Very good, very busy. 13 00:00:47,460 --> 00:00:48,460 Yeah. 14 00:00:48,460 --> 00:00:50,480 A lot, it's a transitional time in the industry. 15 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:51,800 Oh my goodness. 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,380 So NORA is the National Oil Heat Research Alliance, which is kind of a misnomer because 17 00:00:56,380 --> 00:01:00,200 most of what we do is working on transitioning the industry to renewable fuels. 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,200 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 19 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,840 You know, the future is low carbon. 20 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:04,840 It really is. 21 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:09,200 Now when I came out to the Eastern Energy Expo that you invited me to, it was an amazing 22 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:15,440 opportunity to learn about alternative fuels that I really didn't know enough about. 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,920 And a lot of people aren't aware of all of the science and all the engineering that goes 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,300 into developing some of these alternative fuels that are replacements for things that 25 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:27,620 we consider like fuel oils and diesels. 26 00:01:27,620 --> 00:01:32,600 So tell me a little bit about that entire research and where the industry has moved 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,040 in these alternative fuel oil projects. 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,040 Sure. 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,160 Biodiesel is the longest running. 30 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,840 It's been the focus has been on that lately. 31 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,520 It shifted a little bit to renewable diesel. 32 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:43,520 Okay. 33 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,480 A very similar fuel, but biodiesel can replace diesel and heating oil. 34 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:48,480 Like for like. 35 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,480 Oh really? 36 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:50,680 Very, very similar and not exactly the same. 37 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:51,680 There's some slight difference. 38 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,240 A lot of the research we do is focused on quantifying those differences and overcoming 39 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:57,240 those technical barriers. 40 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:58,860 Or is it going to operate differently? 41 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:00,960 How does it operate in the cold? 42 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,280 A myriad of different things. 43 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:03,480 Yeah, I can only imagine. 44 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,480 Does it gel up? 45 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:05,480 Does it need different orifices? 46 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,360 Does it run at a different burner temperature, ignition temperatures? 47 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,320 Does it need a different fuel oxygen ratio? 48 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,720 Sure there's a lot that goes into the development of that. 49 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,440 There are a lot of people in the industry that think of fuel oil as being a fuel source 50 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,560 that's no longer used, but that's really not true. 51 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,200 There's still a lot of fuel oil systems in service. 52 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:25,200 Around five million. 53 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,200 Is it really? 54 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:27,200 Yeah, just under five million. 55 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,200 Wow. 56 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,200 It's a pretty big number. 57 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:30,200 Yeah. 58 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,200 Not in the scheme of the whole country, but five million of anything is a lot. 59 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,200 Yeah, it is absolutely. 60 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,780 So I'm sure it's still probably pretty regional in areas where the supply and availability 61 00:02:37,780 --> 00:02:41,280 of fuel oil is still quite significant. 62 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,600 It's focused in the Northeast, basically Maryland to Maine, the bulk of it. 63 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,120 But there's 21 states that participate in NOAA, NOAA is a checkoff program. 64 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,120 Oh yeah. 65 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:51,120 Okay. 66 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,120 There's more out. 67 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:53,120 There's 21 that participate. 68 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:59,120 So Indiana, Michigan, there's quite a few that you wouldn't really think of as oil in 69 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,120 states. 70 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:01,120 North Carolina, South Carolina. 71 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:02,320 Oh, I really wouldn't. 72 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,880 But I imagine in some of those areas, the availability of natural gases may not be in 73 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,040 all of their markets. 74 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,880 So the fuel oil is a very significant alternative supply. 75 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,760 Those areas, it's in the more rural areas. 76 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:15,760 Exactly. 77 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,240 West of North Carolina, the mountainous regions. 78 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,240 But West North Carolina is a pretty big still heating oil market. 79 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:22,760 Yeah, absolutely. 80 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:28,920 So when we look at like alternative fuels, are there a variety of different applications? 81 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:32,480 The idea is to get these alternative fuels to fit into the existing appliance. 82 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,760 You don't want to change the equipment base, five million units. 83 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,120 That's not really a practical solution. 84 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,360 So getting to a close as a drop in fuel as you can get is the goal. 85 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,120 And if there's any minor changes made that the research brings out, then we can suggest 86 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,040 that in manufacturing, they can either pursue or not if they feel there's a market for it. 87 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,040 Sure. 88 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,040 A lot already have. 89 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:54,040 Yeah, I can only imagine. 90 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,480 And I know very similar to like the refrigerant industry. 91 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,360 There's never really like a one size fits all. 92 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,480 Different parts of the country, different solutions. 93 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Exactly. 94 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:11,120 So when we're looking at those different fuels, what is the differences between them? 95 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,960 Biodiesel is from a chemical process. 96 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,080 It's biodiesel from a living product. 97 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,080 Right. 98 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,080 It's a soybean oil. 99 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,080 Okay. 100 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,760 In oil, use cooking oil and there's some animal fats and other and they're put through a chemical 101 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,540 process called transesterfication and that forms biodiesel. 102 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:29,960 So it's basically a room temperature atmospheric pressure procedure. 103 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:30,960 Okay. 104 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,280 It's not like a oil refinery, high temperature, high pressure, heavy industry. 105 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:36,280 Yeah, yeah. 106 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:37,280 Okay. 107 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:38,340 Do it in this room if you want to. 108 00:04:38,340 --> 00:04:39,340 So it's a natural reaction. 109 00:04:39,340 --> 00:04:41,280 Yeah, it's a chemical reaction. 110 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:44,580 Well, how about that? 111 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:49,560 So as a chemical reaction then, so we're not talking about a, you know, like a crude refinery 112 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:50,720 for oils. 113 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:56,920 We're talking about using a atmospheric condition to be able to, what does that process look 114 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:57,920 like? 115 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:58,920 I mean, what are we actually doing? 116 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,960 They put in a catalyst and that initiates the reaction. 117 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:09,120 So it's basically methanol and lye are the two ingredients they add to the soybean oil, 118 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,480 use cooking oil, whatever it may be. 119 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,520 Then the transesterfication process happens and it yields biodiesel and a byproduct of 120 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,000 glycerin, which is used in soap making and other. 121 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,000 Oh, really? 122 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Yeah. 123 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,000 Okay. 124 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,000 All right. 125 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,640 So there is still some separation in that process. 126 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:25,640 Yes. 127 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:26,640 Okay. 128 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,640 I guess I hadn't really thought about that. 129 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:28,640 The ASTM standard for it. 130 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,320 So it's not like a, the industry first started was kind of like the home bro. 131 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:33,320 Yeah. 132 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,960 So there was widening quality, but there's very high quality standards in an ASTM spec 133 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,340 that all fuel has to meet. 134 00:05:39,340 --> 00:05:41,040 So it's consistent across the board. 135 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,040 Okay. 136 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,120 Yeah, definitely. 137 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,160 And so I noticed when we were at the Eastern Energy Expo, there were a variety of different 138 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,600 levels of fuel. 139 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,320 What do we see being the primary replacement in our residential and like commercial fuel 140 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:57,720 oil systems? 141 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,840 The goal is to get that 100% renewable. 142 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:00,840 100. 143 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:06,320 Obviously the goal right now, the heating oil ASTM spec allows up to 5% biodiesel. 144 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:07,320 Okay. 145 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,320 Without informing anybody. 146 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:09,320 Okay. 147 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,320 Yes. 148 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:11,320 So we'll have up to this. 149 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:12,320 50% in the spec. 150 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:13,320 Sure. 151 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:14,320 And the vast majority of it does. 152 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:15,320 Okay. 153 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:16,320 All right. 154 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,600 So everybody who thinks they're not using biofuel is in fact using about 5% of it. 155 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:20,600 But no fuel. 156 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:21,600 No we're not. 157 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,560 New York State has a mandate for B10 next July. 158 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:25,560 Okay. 159 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,120 Rhode Island's already at B10 and Connecticut also has a B10 mandate for next July. 160 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,120 Okay. 161 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,880 So when we see that, that B10 and what is that representing? 162 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:33,880 The B is the biosecond. 163 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,360 So B10 would be 10% biodiesel, 90% petroleum. 164 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:38,360 Gotcha. 165 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:39,360 Okay. 166 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:45,800 And so when we're looking, I imagine that because we're using a longer period of process 167 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:52,280 to develop the 100% biofuel, it's probably more expensive right now than the lesser blends. 168 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:53,480 It basically trades in parity. 169 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,680 So it's a replacement for diesel fuel. 170 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:56,680 Yeah, yeah. 171 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:57,680 In the transportation industry. 172 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:58,680 Oh, okay. 173 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,240 So there are also, there's demand for that from the heavy demand from the transportation 174 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,240 industry. 175 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,360 So if the price of diesel, petroleum diesel would arise, people are going to shift over 176 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:07,960 and start buying more biodiesel. 177 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:08,960 Absolutely. 178 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,880 So we're driving that price up and then, so it trades basically in parity. 179 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:14,000 Okay. 180 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,280 A few cents in either direction. 181 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,600 Sometimes one will be cheaper than the other or vice versa. 182 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,560 So it's just, it's very comparable though. 183 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:20,560 Yeah. 184 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:21,560 All right. 185 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,560 So we have an alternative though. 186 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:23,560 Yes. 187 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,480 And that's one of the things that we struggle with when we look at some of our other replacement 188 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:27,480 fuels. 189 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:34,240 Like if we look at natural gas and LP, we really don't have those kinds of options. 190 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,640 Under development, but not available at the moment or at the scale, biodiesel is already 191 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,400 at a large scale and had a headstart. 192 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,400 Exactly. 193 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,880 You know, for the transportation industry, it's obviously the agricultural industry is 194 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,000 heavily involved in developing and promoting it as well. 195 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000 Yeah. 196 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,600 Take a lot of raw material to be able to produce a lot of soybean seeds. 197 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:50,960 Yeah, absolutely. 198 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,560 So that, well, you brought up an interesting point. 199 00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:02,280 So do we then have the potential for having replacements for natural gas and for LP applications 200 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,560 going forward? 201 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,800 There are obviously a work for the liquid fuels industry. 202 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,160 I don't say as in top of them, but obviously there's a huge amount of hydrogen research 203 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,160 going on. 204 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:11,160 That's one I've learned about them. 205 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,160 Yeah. 206 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,400 Renewable natural gas, renewable propane. 207 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,560 Renewable diesel is another renewable liquid fuel that's hit the market lately in New York 208 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,440 and coming into Boston. 209 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:21,840 Renewable diesel fuel. 210 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,400 Slightly different than biodiesel. 211 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:24,400 Okay. 212 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,840 It's processed in a repurposed oil refinery. 213 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:27,840 Oh. 214 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:28,840 High pressure, high temperature. 215 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,680 That's where sustainable aviation fuel comes from. 216 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:31,680 No kidding. 217 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:32,680 Okay. 218 00:08:32,680 --> 00:08:33,680 Byproduct of that. 219 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:34,680 Yeah. 220 00:08:34,680 --> 00:08:38,040 And a real big thing at the moment, SAF, sustainable aviation fuel. 221 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,040 Yeah. 222 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,880 It also yields renewable propane and other gases. 223 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:41,880 Okay. 224 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:42,880 They're all renewable. 225 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:43,880 It brings up another point. 226 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,040 I hadn't even really thought about that. 227 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:51,400 I'd like to talk about how our industry is not the only one being impacted by our reduction 228 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,520 of our carbon footprint, by whatever you want to call it. 229 00:08:54,520 --> 00:09:00,600 But typically we would look at it as a degasification or decarbonization. 230 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,600 There's so many different terms. 231 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,280 It really comes down to we're doing our due diligence to be responsible for our environment, 232 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,200 reducing our global impact. 233 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:13,000 And so many times when we're talking about HVAC and refrigeration, we talk about how 234 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,680 it's impacting our industry. 235 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:21,040 I always like to make sure we're aware that it's not the only industry that's being impacted. 236 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,920 And I hadn't thought about the whole aviation fuel as well. 237 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:30,240 So are they looking very much into the renewable fuels at the same time that we're looking 238 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:31,240 at these other areas? 239 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,240 It's marine. 240 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,400 Marine's another huge, you're not going to electrify planes or boats. 241 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:36,400 Yeah, no kidding. 242 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:41,680 And I couldn't imagine the electrical consumption we need to do electric train transport that 243 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:42,680 was hauling product. 244 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:43,680 Yeah, it's that practical. 245 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:50,440 No, maybe people, but products, we're talking hundreds of thousands of tons that just not 246 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,300 something we can do very easily. 247 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:57,520 So we're looking at those optional fuels and alternative fuels. 248 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,840 Industrial processes, it's huge there too. 249 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,760 Yeah, indeed, indeed. 250 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:08,400 So it gives us the opportunity to step back and think about our impact into this transition. 251 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,200 I call it the transition because all of these efforts really come down to that whole reducing 252 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,280 our carbon footprint. 253 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,360 And going forward, we're going to see a lot of alternative refrigerants, a lot of alternative 254 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:21,880 fuels. 255 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,760 So our industry is constantly evolving. 256 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:30,440 Now if I'm an educator and I'm currently teaching on fuel oil systems, because I've actually 257 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,960 talked to some of our educators here that have fuel oil training programs. 258 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:42,400 So how can an educator that's trying to be prepared for the future, where do they go 259 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,780 to be able to learn about what's happening in this transition? 260 00:10:46,780 --> 00:10:47,780 That's Norah's job. 261 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:51,480 So we do a huge amount of training. 262 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,240 Explaining the trainer type thing as well and getting out to technicians directly ourselves. 263 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,680 And explaining the difference between some of these fuels, cloud points, pour points, 264 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:00,640 oxygen content. 265 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,600 The combustion process is slightly different. 266 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,640 So there are some differences. 267 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,760 And the manufacturers also do it, the manufacturers. 268 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:15,160 So there's only three real burner manufacturers in the USA and two of them already have B100 269 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,400 approved burners on the market. 270 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,400 Oh wow. 271 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,960 I know last year we were talking about we had one, now we've got at least a couple of 272 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,720 them certified for it. 273 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,400 So if I'm an educator and I'm looking to contact Norah, what is the best way to get into the 274 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,480 loop so I can stay ahead of these transitions? 275 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,440 That's the name of our podcast, In the Loop. 276 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,440 Yeah, look at that. 277 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:36,440 Norahweb.org. 278 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,480 That would be the best for anybody to get in touch with me if they have any questions. 279 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:40,480 Okay. 280 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:41,480 And so let's talk about In the Loop. 281 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,760 Let's talk about these opportunities to stay educated. 282 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Because what we're starting to see is more specialized podcasts, right? 283 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,000 We need to. 284 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,280 We need to be able to build our communities and then stay connected just like we're doing 285 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:54,280 right here. 286 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,480 We're talking to educators, we're talking to contractors and technicians and students. 287 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:04,600 And as we start honing in on the training that we need, it's very important to connect 288 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,540 with the right sources. 289 00:12:06,540 --> 00:12:11,520 So tell me about your podcast, how long we've been running and the topics that we're covering. 290 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,600 Norah kicked off their podcast last May at the Eastern Energy Expo. 291 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:20,320 Kind of similar, not as nice a boot that you have, but similar to that. 292 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:26,760 And basically industry leaders, manufacturers, the state associations, service managers, 293 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,480 wholesalers, whole gamut of the industry. 294 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,160 But you're right, I think it has to get down to the students and the technicians as well, 295 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,920 not just keeping it at a 30,000 foot view. 296 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,880 I think you have to get down in the trenches where the guys are and they're the ones who 297 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,040 are going to confront and have to solve these problems. 298 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,200 100% because they're going to be facing these things and education is going to be so critical. 299 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:55,920 I feel like 2024 is going to be a transitional period for education because everyone is being 300 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,280 impacted by some type of a transition. 301 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:06,920 Things that were consistent and stable for decades are now getting some renovations. 302 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,680 And so we all have our own duties and responsibilities to stay prepared for this. 303 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:16,960 So if you're working on fuel oil, you want to learn more about fuel oil. 304 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,800 If you want to stay ahead of what's happening in that sector, make sure that you hop on 305 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:27,520 the podcast networks and look for in the loop and join Bob on some of these conversations. 306 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,520 I'm only in a couple of them. 307 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:29,520 Oh yeah. 308 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,280 So a variety of different topics. 309 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:36,560 It's a wide net, yeah, wide variety of topics, sustainability and all types of renewable 310 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,080 fuels, a lot of topics, manufacturing. 311 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,740 Fantastic, fantastic. 312 00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:45,840 Any other things, news in the industry that we want to address while we're in here today? 313 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,760 NORS started a train to trainer initiative. 314 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,000 We call it an accredited instructor program. 315 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,320 So we've contracted with an educational consultant. 316 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:00,240 Most of the training is part time, at least in the liquid fuels industry. 317 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,640 So there are techs that came to the field. 318 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Some of them are full time, but they're generally techs from the field and they got thrown into 319 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:05,480 the classroom. 320 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,400 They generally don't have education degrees or a lot of experience in front of a class, 321 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,840 they're planning, learning objectives, that type of thing. 322 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,400 So we've contracted with an education consultant to do a three day in depth in our Plainview 323 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:23,040 facility training, but not on the technical class, totally classroom skills. 324 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,520 That's been really well received in delivery, lesson plans, goals and objectives, that type 325 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:29,520 of thing. 326 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,520 It's been very well received. 327 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,760 I think that's going to make an impact going forward. 328 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,200 I'd like to learn more about that. 329 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,960 I'd like to follow up with you because that's a super important thing to know that there 330 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:45,200 are programs out there to give you some of those additional tools. 331 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,640 Just like a tool that we would use in a job when we come into the classroom, there's a 332 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,920 lot of new tools that we have to pick up and learn how to use. 333 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,880 That whole construction of a classroom and delivery, those are not things that we typically 334 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,360 learn in the field. 335 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,760 You're really good at fixing furnaces, but maybe not so good at teaching other people 336 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:03,760 to fix furnaces. 337 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,440 Again, we're trying to fill. 338 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Technically, these guys are great. 339 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,320 That's why they ended up in the position. 340 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,840 Somebody saw something, thought they'd be good at it. 341 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,440 They were technically proficient. 342 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,040 Classroom skills relating to people, especially the usually age gap. 343 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,680 Most of the instructors are Gen X or Boomer. 344 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,520 We have a Gen Z millennial student body. 345 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,520 Sometimes alpha now. 346 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:26,520 We're getting into alpha. 347 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:32,080 Then we're like, I've got two different generations that actually learn in different ways. 348 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,720 Three or four now. 349 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,560 The goal is to try to bridge that gap to give them the classroom skills. 350 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,920 They haven't had any formal educational training. 351 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,120 They've only come from the field. 352 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,120 Most of us do. 353 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,120 Yeah, me too. 354 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:45,120 Same right here. 355 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,560 Well, we sure appreciate all the efforts that you're doing in the industry. 356 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,560 Thank you. 357 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,560 I look forward to see. 358 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,840 Hopefully, I get to make it to the Eastern Energy Expo. 359 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:53,840 Such an amazing conference. 360 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:54,840 Love to have you. 361 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:55,840 All right. 362 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:56,840 Well, thank you for joining us here. 363 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:57,840 I look forward to future conversations. 364 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:58,840 Yep. 365 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:05,840 Thank you.