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Welcome to the Windshield Chronicles, a mental sequence operation.

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This episode brought to you by Hudson Technologies, improving

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environmental quality and promoting a healthier planet to the sustainable

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recovery and reuse of natural sources.

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Learn more at HudsonTech.com.

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All right, everyone.

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Thank you for joining us once again on Did You Know the Esco HVAC podcast.

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So we are hanging out at the 2024 National HVACR Education Conference.

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So you'll hear a little background noise.

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That's just because we have 1200 educators.

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No way.

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1200, Kate.

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That's fabulous.

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Hanging out with Kate Houghton from Hudson Technologies.

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And we always have some amazing conversations.

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It's always so much fun.

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Never know where it's going to start or end, but it's a great time.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, we're sitting here, we're sitting down, we're going, okay, I think we know

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what we want to talk about, is there anything different that we want to cover?

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Anything you want to throw in?

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Because there's just so much to talk about.

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And right now Hudson is at the forefront of helping us understand refrigerant

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transition, so Kate and I have done some really, really wonderful discussions on

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what the industry looks like when this whole HFC phase down and what we're

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doing for recovery and reclamation.

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But we want to start painting a picture that doesn't always get thought of.

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Especially from the technician side.

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So let's just, let's just backtrack a couple of decades.

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I'm dating myself again.

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Oh my gosh.

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You've not made.

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So as a technician out in the field, we were, we were very strict on

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recovering of refrigerant and every refrigerant had it.

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Now we did commercial refrigeration, so we had a lot of refrigerants.

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We did residential, light commercial, uh, AC.

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So, you know, there were many a times that, you know, I can have a dozen

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different refrigerants in our shop.

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And so we had clean cylinders of refrigerant.

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We had cylinders that had, you know, burnout compressors that were labeled.

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So we would accumulate a variety of different recovery cylinders.

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And then we would go to our local supply house and then we would, you know,

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bring them in for reclamation, but we did, that was really all that we seen

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of that side of the industry.

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And it wasn't until, until I got into working with educators and talking

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about the whole life cycle of our industry and Kate and I were talking about,

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have you ever thought about what that cylinder does, like from its beginning

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of its life to its end.

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And I thought that'd be a wonderful conversation to have, if you don't mind.

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Absolutely.

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I'm all in.

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Okay.

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All right, let's do it.

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So, so let's start out.

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How about we start as a fresh brand new recovery cylinder?

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Just came out of the manufacturing facility.

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What happens with that thing?

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Yeah.

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So that can go in a couple of different directions, but really it's useful.

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Life is getting into service.

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So generally those brand new recovery cylinders will go out

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through the wholesale channel.

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They're available for contractors to go pick up, purchase rent deposit.

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Every contractor and every wholesale relationship is slightly different.

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So you can kind of see that a couple of different ways, but that contractor

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is going to obtain that cylinder from a wholesaler.

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They might obtain it from their reclaimed partner if they're not reclaiming.

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So for example, they were reclaiming directly with something like a Hudson.

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You'll also be able to get that, that cylinder directly from your reclaimed

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partner and take that and put that out on the truck.

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So at that point, you've got the ability to start to do your first recovery.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So let's just lay like we were in my scenario.

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So I've got my 50 pound recovery cylinder.

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I have now gotten enough clean refrigerant in this particular one.

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I put it in my van, I transport it to my local distributor and I don't

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know what happens from there.

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Yeah.

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It's like a big mystery, right?

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They, they just, the cylinders disappear and a little bit later on you find out what

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you had.

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So what that, what that local wholesaler will do will consolidate all of those

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recovery cylinders, the thirties, the fifties, sometimes the 125s and thousands even.

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And they'll consolidate all those cylinders.

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They'll get a pallet full generally.

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Sometimes they'll use less, but sometimes it generally they'll get a pallet full of

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cylinders.

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So 40 recovery cylinders and they'll go back to their reclaimed partner.

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So they'll go back to the factory.

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Every single cylinder tagged labeled with who the contractor was, what the wholesaler

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was, and that'll come back in and be received into a, into a reclaimer's facility.

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Really?

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Okay.

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So we're doing, so we're already doing a lot of tracking of those cylinders.

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A lot of people talk about, you know, the potential of the

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requirements for cylinder tracking going forward.

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Well, it's actually already being done in some ways.

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It really is.

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And so it's, it's really for us as industry to figure out how do we make it easy and

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accessible down to a technician level, but there's an awful lot of documentation

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going on right now about cylinders and about refrigerant and recovery.

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So once that cylinder gets to your facility, how are we going to know what's in that?

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Cause we, I mean, I would label my own system, my own system, my own system,

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mine, like on my label for my cylinder, I had every job, what refrigerant, what date,

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but once it gets to you, how do you know what's actually there?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So we test every single cylinder every single time.

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So each cylinder gets a small sample drawn off that cylinder.

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We test for refrigerant type.

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We test for purity and ultimately we weigh the cylinder to test for weight.

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And we track all of that by cylinder serial number.

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So we have a database that goes back probably close to 30 years.

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And the key, and the key that we trigger off is the cylinder serial number, because

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although there's multiple manufacturers of recovery cylinders or products,

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and there's even for that matter, their unique serial number never once have we

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seen the same serial number from different manufacturers.

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So the serial number really is a unique identifier to that cylinder for its entire life.

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So even if a cylinder has been retested and recertified, it's still the

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same serial number?

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The serial number never changes.

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The test date changes and you'll see that stamping and you can see cylinders that

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have been retested over and over again.

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But the serial number is a constant throughout that cylinder's life.

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I never realized that.

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I always assumed that once a cylinder was retested, it got re-serialized.

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So we've been tracking cylinders for their entire lifespan.

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Exactly.

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Yep.

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And we can go back in our database and actually see the same cylinder come back

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over and over.

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We can tell you what refrigerant was in it last time we got it and the time before that.

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Oh, funny.

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Wow.

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The analytical nerd in me would be, okay, where have you been in your life?

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Trust me.

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There's rabbit holes I go down as well.

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I can, yeah, I bet.

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I can see that, especially if one comes back and something's questionable about

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it and go, hmm, might have to see where you actually have been on your journey

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here recently.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Exactly.

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All right.

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So we'll get our cylinder in.

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We will test it.

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We'll analyze, see what we actually have and then what's going to be next step.

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Yeah.

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So then what, depending on the purity in the refrigerant, it's going to go in

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different directions in the plant, left, right, straight ahead.

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Those cylinders will be emptied.

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So we'll recover all the refrigerant out of that.

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We're going to pull that down to vacuum.

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So we're going to get every ounce of everything out of that cylinder.

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And then depending, it's going to go one of two ways.

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That's one is going to one of two ways.

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So if it needs hydro certification.

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Yeah.

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And so we re-certify every cylinder within a certain period of time.

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So it goes, it has some useful life.

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So if it needs hydro research, it's going to go to the left, let's say, and

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go down the hydro path.

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If the hydro date is fine and it can be put back into circulation, it's going

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to go right and go to the paint, paint line.

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We're going to repaint every single cylinder, fresh coat of paint.

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Now, what about the insides of them?

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Are they cleaned in that process or?

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Yes.

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So that's a great question.

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We get it a lot.

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So in through the recovery process, we're going to pull down vacuum

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vacuum, but because the, the contaminants, like a little bit of oil, a little bit of

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moisture, a little bit of particulate aren't going to affect the purity of the

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refrigerant, the recovery cylinder doesn't have to be pristine.

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So it's not re-certified to brand new conditions, but here's the catch.

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You can't use that cylinder to re-inject refrigerant because you can inject

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contaminants.

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So a recovery cylinder is literally for the recovery refrigerant and

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transfer to a reclaimer.

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It's not for recovery and re-inject.

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True.

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Absolutely.

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Definitely not for resell, which is part of the reason we've had a lot of

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concerns in industry.

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When we start talking about refillable cylinders, you have people going, Oh, we

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can just re, you know, we can take the supply of existing recovery cylinders.

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Well, that's not true because then every single one of those would have to be

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almost recreated.

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They would have to be run to completely different process.

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Okay.

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All right.

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All right.

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So, so now we've, we've got through, we've verified our test date.

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So if it is expired, we're going to get re-certified.

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If it is not, we're going to be ready to send back out into the industry.

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And how do they get distributed?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So hydro tested, painted, palletized, under vacuum, and then sent back out to

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where they came from.

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So we do a like for like swap and that would be pretty typical in most of the

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industry.

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So we've got, depending on how much cylinder the wholesaler sent in, we're

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going to send back like for like cylinders.

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So a pallet of 40 comes in, a pallet of 40 goes back out.

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So there's a very good chance I could actually end up back with a cylinder

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that I have sent in.

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It's possible.

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What happens though for the technician, when they drop that cylinder off at the

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wholesaler, they're going to walk out with a fresh cylinder.

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So they're going to keep swapping so that they can go to that next recovery job.

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So the cylinder is likely, could likely go back to that wholesaler, but you may

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not get it back to the same technician.

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Okay.

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All right.

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And the cylinder fleet, just to put in perspective is hundreds of at Hudson,

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hundreds of thousands of cylinders.

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So it doesn't necessarily go back to the same wholesaler.

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It's going to go back to a wholesaler.

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I gotcha.

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I gotcha.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Yeah, that's very interesting.

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So, you know, a lot of times we just don't think about that entire

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journey of that cylinder.

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So going forward, we have a huge emphasis on reclamation.

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Is our industry prepared?

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Do you think we have enough cylinders in supply to do a continual recirculation

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of our HFCs and particularly that's out in industry?

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So that's a great question.

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If you had to ask me that question two or three years ago, I would say no, because

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there was a steel shortage, COVID pandemic.

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It was really, people were getting turned away.

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They couldn't get cylinders.

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All of that has come back around.

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There's ample cylinders in the marketplace.

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Nice.

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Okay.

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It's not, it's not an impediment at this point.

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Cylinders are not an impediment.

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I have, I have had a very interesting topic come up here internally, particularly

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about our A2L recovery cylinders.

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So some manufacturers saying that they're going left-handed thread for sure.

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Some saying it's undetermined yet.

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So we're not making a statement on that.

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Are you seeing A2L recovery cylinders coming back in yet?

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Yeah.

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Also a great question.

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So we are seeing A2Ls come back in, but a dedicated design, a

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designed A2L cylinder not yet.

253
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Yes.

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So we're, we're recommending anyone who has A2Ls cause they are in circulation

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and they are coming back.

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So we have flammable tags.

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We asked anybody returning cylinders to make sure that we know that there's

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flammable refrigerants on the shipment and to designate, to call out that

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cylinder on the pallet, but so far we have not seen A2L recovery cylinders

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become available in the marketplace.

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Yeah.

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That's, we're kind of the same way.

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We've had, we've found some available, but we've also seen some, what I

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would call counterfeit recovery cylinders.

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And we have to.

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Have you really?

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It's a real problem because they don't meet DOT.

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They're undersized.

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So if you use the 80% fill ratio, you're overfilling them and they

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are very dangerous to transport.

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Cause they're, they claim that there are 30 pound cylinder, but when you put them

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side by side, the water capacity in the cylinder size, they're much smaller.

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So if you, if you filled it to your 80% rule, you are overfilling that cylinder

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and it could potentially become a missile.

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It's very dangerous.

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Oh, that's boy.

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Ty Brandeman is going to love to know that because he's actually been running

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down that rabbit hole, trying to see what is coming to the industry and making

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sure to point out the, what we are going to call counterfeit cylinders.

280
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,520
I mean, we've, we've found recovery cylinders that have like shutoff valves on them.

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Correct.

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Yeah.

283
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Yeah.

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Yeah, we're actually issuing some, uh, some updates this week in

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terms of what to look out for.

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There's a lot of information coming out in the industry very, very quickly, but

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I suffice to say, if somebody's offering you a recovery cylinder and it seems

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like a really great deal, it's probably too good to be true.

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Like everything in life.

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If it sounds too good to be true, it's probably because it's

291
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probably because it is.

292
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Yeah.

293
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:07,640
No, that's really cool.

294
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,480
I'm so glad that you clarified that because we're all going to spend a lot

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more time focusing on recovering reclamation and understanding our role in

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that process, and I think it helps paint a better picture and hopefully in the

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future, we're going to do a road show or we're going to actually show what some

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00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:23,840
of those processes look like.

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00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,160
I can't wait to have you at our champagne plant and, uh, and show the

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world how we actually handle those cylinders and then how we go about it.

301
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:30,840
I love it.

302
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:31,400
I love it.

303
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,280
You know, we keep talking about this evolution of education right now.

304
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And I know you in particular, very, very forefront in education.

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00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,960
What educational resources do we have to, uh, to connect with Hudson and to

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learn about where our industry is right now?

307
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:48,480
Absolutely.

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00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,160
We have a lot of information on our website, HudsonTech.com in terms of

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sustainability, reclaim, um, handling H2L.

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00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,120
So there's a wealth of information on our website.

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Check it out.

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All right.

313
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,000
Fantastic.

314
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,040
Any other things you'd like to cover while we're here today?

315
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,160
Well, I'm really excited to talk about, uh, HFCs in the face down later on

316
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,240
this afternoon here.

317
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:11,400
And, uh, you know, it's great.

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It's a great turnout, Clifton.

319
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:13,400
It's a really great turnout.

320
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:13,760
Yeah.

321
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,720
There's so many people here and you that are joining us today.

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00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,480
We're so glad that you're spending some time hanging out.

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I wish you were here with us and we hope that you're here next year to spend

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some time one-on-one with every educator from the industry that is putting their

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00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,080
heart and soul into keeping all this information forefront, just like you are, Kate.

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00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,600
It's, I would say it's one of my favorite conferences.

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I wouldn't miss it every year.

328
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,240
It's great.

329
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,160
Yeah, it's what got me hooked in doing the things that I do now when I keep 2019.

330
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,040
So it looks like it's getting pretty crazy out there.

331
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,760
I think we're heading right into another session.

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00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,000
So I think we are.

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00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,360
So that's wonderful.

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I sure appreciate you joining us and look forward to, uh, see what the class is.

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00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,200
And I encourage everyone to reach out to your local distributors, see if you're

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00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,120
using Hudson, learn a little bit more about Hudson and find them at Hudson.

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HudsonTech.com.

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All right.

339
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:06,040
Thank you.

340
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:06,960
Thank you so much.

341
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:36,880
Thank you.