1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,800 Welcome to the Windshield Chronicles, a mental sequence of operation. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,920 This episode brought to you by Rachel Kaiser and as part of her class, 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:16,000 taking the chemistry of combustion into your classroom so you can have a complete 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:21,400 understanding of the chemistry and the sequence of operation of combustion. 5 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:24,080 Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining. 6 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:26,960 Did you know the ESCO HVAC podcast? 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,800 So we are still here at the 2024 National HVACR Education Conference, 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,360 and I'm hanging out with Rachel Kaiser. How are you today? 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:40,040 I'm good, Clifton. This is an exciting event, and I'm really excited to join you this afternoon. 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,480 It has been crazy. It's starting to wind down. It's a little quieter out here. 11 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:47,200 I think everyone's going, all right, my brain's in meltdown mode. 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,680 Yeah, and it's always the figure out what session or how they can bounce between them. 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,120 And I mean, the next round of sessions just kicked off. 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,920 Yeah, and I think we had like a hundred and some sessions. 15 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,040 So there's so many different topics. 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,000 And your topic that you covered in your class, which I highly encourage everyone to sit in class 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,360 and go through the full length version of it. 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,840 Yours was very interesting. I was curious myself. 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:21,760 Yeah, it was an exciting opportunity to share some more information on how you take 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,680 the chemistry of combustion and take that into the classroom. 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:34,720 And so it was a nice combo of offering attendees insights and some deeper dives into the whys 22 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:41,040 and hows of the chemistry that was happening that you encounter in the field for combustion 23 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:48,800 and how to take that and take the step back and take that into the classroom in a way that distills 24 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:57,200 that chemistry into a relatable, digestible output for any kind of learning group and 25 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:02,640 ways to introduce them to the complex interactions at the molecular level that aren't relevant. 26 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:08,640 Thinking about them as molecules in that molecular level that I as a classically trained chemist 27 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:16,160 was taught to do. But why is that relevant to kind of troubleshooting and safety paradigms 28 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:22,480 and things that a technician and students learning to become that technician are going to care about? 29 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,440 Okay, now we're getting somewhere. As I know myself and all educators that are joining us, 30 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:38,480 I learn to fix things by understanding how they work. And it kind of goes back into education in 31 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:45,280 the same way. I can't deliver something if I don't truly understand it. So is there a short form 32 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:52,080 version that we can dive into? Oh yeah, I think so. I mean, yeah, I mean, essentially what I 33 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,560 am trying to come across is that the course is giving you the base scientific chemistry that's 34 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:06,400 happening before you go and take that next step of learning on how to leverage analyzers and take 35 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:13,520 them into the field. So it is exploring what so many textbooks and this is whether you're in a 36 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:21,520 chemistry class or utilizing HVAC training manuals. They start with a very basic and they always 37 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:30,240 highlight balanced reaction to explain what's happening with combustion. And I dive at and 38 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:40,400 explore if that basic reaction is actually relevant or helpful in the long run, because it gives a 39 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,720 simplify which makes it easier to talk about explanation of what you want to be happening 40 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:55,280 with combustion, but it is a non-achievable reaction. It is a situation in which it is saying, 41 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:02,640 so the three basic pieces for a reaction that you need for combustion is you need a fuel, 42 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:11,920 you need oxygen, and you need a heat source to move your chemical reaction forward. So what you 43 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:22,000 usually see is a CH4 molecule or methane. You add that to two O2 molecules. You have your heat 44 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,280 source, whatever that ignition source is. In my talk, I like to represent it initially as a match 45 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:33,520 because it's something both real world, no matter what level a learner's at, they see that and then 46 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:39,760 it's giving instructors, you build up on where that ignition source changes for those real world 47 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:47,280 applications. And each one of those, it's breaking down and taking that those three elements always 48 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:53,760 need to be there, but that reaction of where I started with that one methane, two oxygen, and an 49 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:03,360 ignition source then balances out and you only get CO2, water, and heat out. Sounds pretty simple. 50 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:10,000 And if that's what we actually got every time, we just have CO2 and water. And why would we ever see 51 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,680 these lawsuits around CO poisoning from combustion equipment? Absolutely. Why would we have degradation 52 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:25,920 of our venting and heat exchangers and things from acids that we encounter? Why would those types of 53 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:31,920 things, if that was the reaction and the reality of what's happening from that chemical standpoint, 54 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:41,920 then we wouldn't see those real world scenarios and the real world is never as clean or as easy to 55 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:49,120 navigate. Things aren't where we wanted them to be. And that basic equation is assuming that 56 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,600 everything is exactly where we want it to be for that chemical reaction. So a key piece of that that 57 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:04,080 dive into is, for instance, those two O2 that we expect in that balanced reaction, they come from 58 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:10,240 air. Yeah, exactly. We don't have an O2 cylinder sitting by everyone. We're not being straight oxygen, are we? 59 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:17,520 We are not. And so it was diving at, for instance, like real world, do we have any situation that 60 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:24,800 is pure oxygen? And in reality, there are some examples in which we have pure oxygen atmosphere. 61 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:33,680 NASA makes it during the Apollo, Mercury and Gemini missions, those particular space modules 62 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:42,320 all had pure oxygen atmospheres. Well, Apollo 1 kind of used that pure oxygen atmosphere and had a 63 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:51,920 significant fire that cost the lives of those three astronauts. So we see that that pure oxygen 64 00:06:51,920 --> 00:07:00,560 atmosphere definitely supports combustion. However, the cost and the control to put that pure 65 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:07,440 oxygen atmosphere in those situations and into that environment out of the gate is costly and 66 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,600 takes a lot of control that we are not going to have. Yeah, not going to be available for the 67 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:21,520 average homeowner. It is not. And I mean, we think we have air sealing issues right now in house 68 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,960 envelopes or building envelopes of any type. If you were trying to ramp that all the way up to 69 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:34,080 it being able to withstand and hold a pure oxygen atmosphere, that would be a whole new building 70 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,040 hurdle that would be not easy to cross. We're probably not going to encounter that. Yeah. So 71 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:47,200 I mean, it's achievable, but not realistic. So like you dive at those and look at that. So then 72 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:55,120 it's, we are going to have that combustion taking place in air. Is air all O2? Well, obviously not. 73 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,360 That's why we're talking about that. So it's exploring what the typical compositions of air 74 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:05,200 are, because what we first saw is that simple reaction. It always goes back to that simple 75 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:13,440 reaction that people get taught and exploring if that is truly what we would ever see happening. 76 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:21,120 Because never does it does combustion mean that we aren't getting CO2 in water, right? But what 77 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:27,360 else are we getting and why? Yeah. What other inputs did we feed into our reaction to be able 78 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:33,040 to see what our outputs are? Yeah. Correct. So now you got the brain. It's awfully late in the day 79 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,520 to be thinking this hard, but I love this conversation. So like if you look and just 80 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:44,080 taking basic numbers, again, continuing on that, just looking at the oxygen component needed for 81 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:52,240 combustion, roughing the percentages you're looking at so that it becomes an easy demonstration to 82 00:08:52,240 --> 00:09:00,560 bring into your classroom. You can take, say, an example I give is balloons. So if you do one red 83 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:07,040 balloon as one of the oxygen molecules you need, and you do another balloon as another of the O2 84 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:14,240 molecules you need, then you can proceed to do the same for the nitrogens to represent that. So you 85 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:22,640 would have two red oxygen balloons that give your 20% and then you fill it out with the other 80% 86 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:28,480 nitrogen, which is an easy clean. That's not completely representative of everything. You have 87 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:35,200 an air, but it starts to give a super visualization for your students as well as for yourself. 88 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:42,720 I love that. On what that means because that fuel that you need has to find that oxygen or you won't 89 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:52,480 be having combustion. So if there's all those nitrogens around and even again stepping back to 90 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:58,880 that idea of keeping things simple, even if the nitrogens didn't react, just the fuel trying to 91 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:07,760 find those oxygen molecules or red balloons amongst a sea of blue, nitrogen balloons, you're 92 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:18,320 instantly in a space that you start to see where mixing and having the air available to 93 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:26,080 for the fuel source to mix with, to react with, however you want to term that, that best correlates 94 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:32,720 with the kind of program you already have in place. That's the, gives you the foundation to start to 95 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,800 visualize why that can be problematic. All I can see is color balloons right now. I'm looking out 96 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:44,560 into nothing and I'm seeing my colored balloons going, why isn't this hanging in every classroom 97 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:49,440 in the country? It's so interesting to think of it from that perspective and the amount of work that 98 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:54,000 has to happen in that reaction to be able to isolate those oxygen balloons out of there. 99 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Correct. So I'm in, and I gave like as another tip was whether it was balloons or another super easy 100 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:11,040 and low cost way to do that is just get card stock from any of the box stores in the Kellers and the 101 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:17,680 those individual card stocks can represent the molecules as well. And you can do the same where 102 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:22,960 you start to set up that say the front of your classroom is your burner and that would be where 103 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:30,160 your fuel gets introduced. So you build card stock, use paper clips and just the four by six piece of 104 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:36,640 card stock in the different colors that represent the fuel or the oxygen, the nitrogen, any of the 105 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:43,680 components that you would typically encounter even again, keeping it more simplified and you can show 106 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:50,800 those issues with mixing because your fuel's coming in from one source. It's not coming from everywhere. 107 00:11:50,800 --> 00:12:00,640 No. But your air and oxygen is coming from another part and so they are segregated. 108 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:08,560 Yes. That you can exemplify by using your learners as part of the environment to demonstrate where 109 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:14,720 a burn, a burner and that ignition and everything comes from and lay that out 110 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:22,560 at that interaction of what's happening for the combustion. I'm blown away. That makes so much sense 111 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:32,240 when you present it like that. Okay. So I mean, in my outline, it was those taking those each time of 112 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:39,680 breaking down. So where I just laid out for air and that complexity it brings, you add in things, 113 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:46,160 it's bringing, I've talked about oxygen and nitrogen, but there's water in that. 114 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:52,160 There's argon, there's, you know, you can just keep adding. Okay. So that's what the 115 00:12:53,280 --> 00:13:04,320 makeup of just the air is. However, that's looking at it from a stratosphere of the globe kind of makeup. 116 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:10,560 Absolutely. Great. But we as humans are adding all kinds of chemicals into the air. 117 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:20,320 And detergents. Yes. So anything, whether it's the people, the furniture, the cleaning supplies, 118 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:31,920 you've painted anything, exhaust from other activities, be it cooking, vehicles, all sorts of 119 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:39,280 activities that are in our world, which are next to where we have our combustion taking place with 120 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:49,840 these appliances, those all add additional chemicals into our air factor of our combustion reaction. 121 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:56,400 Wow. You know, I've always promoted the use of dual pipe installations for high efficiency gas 122 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:01,920 furnaces. I've always been a big proponent of that and been against using single pipe systems and 123 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:08,160 using your interior air for your combustion and for the efficiency of it. But typically I was 124 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,680 looking at that from the perspective of utilizing that oxygen rich, you know, outside air. Now that 125 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:18,800 I relook at it, it's like it even more importantly, it's to remove the combustion air from the 126 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,720 contaminations of the indoor environment. And that's a fascinating point Clifton, because 127 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:32,080 so we do that even in those direct vents situations where you have those two pipes and you're doing 128 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:38,960 the best that you can thinking, hey, I'm going out and I'm getting fresh air for this combustion 129 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:47,120 process. It's controlled in a much better way from not randomly pulling air from whatever room that 130 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:55,040 that appliance is in. However, and I demonstrate this in my talk was going through and going, you 131 00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:02,640 know, that fresh air, that's not as fresh. It still doesn't meet what we just described of even only 132 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:09,360 having the oxygen nitrogen argon type of piece because you have to look at what that environment 133 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:15,440 is. As soon as you pipe outside, we have all these things happening now. Wildfires. Yeah. 134 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:23,760 Look at the chemicals and the particulates and all of that. Even if you have gone to the step of you 135 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:31,280 have exactly what you have supported of that pulling in your combustion air from outside in 136 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:41,280 its own pipe situation and setup, you're outside, you need to do some analysis and look to say, 137 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:47,600 what else am I going to pull in even from there? So there's no such thing as clean combustion air. 138 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:53,760 That's what there is no clean combustion air. It's more what else could be pulling in and it could 139 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:59,520 be very environmental yet may be fine for a while. And you have scenarios. I actually laid out one of 140 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:08,160 those hypotheticals sharing with the class is if you have that two pipe system and it's outside and 141 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,920 that house is along a busy road right by an interstate, you are automatically in an environment 142 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:24,480 that has a lot more exhaust particles in it. And that's going to instantly affect that fresh air 143 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,800 and add to the chemistry that's going to be happening within that combustion chamber. 144 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:36,480 I want to go to this class now. I love this. I love the idea of that. I think that would make 145 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,960 a very, very good show sometime to do some visual analysis of that to be able to bring that to life 146 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,760 because I completely sitting right here, I'm imagining all of this in the process and it helps 147 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:52,560 us truly understand that science, the chemistry behind that reaction. What are we actually doing 148 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:59,200 here? What are the byproducts of a reaction? Correct. And that's the piece because 149 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,480 just having, say a car come by that will go back to that direct vent and you have that pipe outside. 150 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:13,600 If just one car pulls up one day and has exhaust when that appliance kicks on and is pulling that 151 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,280 obviously not quite fresh, what we would like to think of, but pulls that air in with that car 152 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:26,320 exhaust near it, that will make the additional byproducts and create additional chemistry 153 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:34,000 experimentation within that combustion chamber for that day. But is that going to be what you're 154 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:42,720 going to see within the system as degradation or outputs on one day? The answer on that is that may 155 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:49,840 not be a critical factor. However, if it is a house with that vent where it's every day by a big 156 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:56,400 interstate where you have that constantly pulling through, then you're increasing your probability 157 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:04,160 of that additional chemistry happening at a level that then has an impact. Because from a theoretical 158 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:10,960 sense, we can draw on a piece of paper or on a computer screen all of the things that we're 159 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:17,040 doing, all kinds of possible chemistry that could be happening with the number of contaminants that 160 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:23,600 you can have in air, even alone and continuing to go with the idea you have a simple methane fuel. 161 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:33,520 But is it enough and at a high enough concentration to be impactful? And we know that from all the 162 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:39,440 experience of all the different instructors and technicians in the field that they encounter 163 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,480 things that there's definitely additional chemistry happening. Oh, yeah, they wouldn't 164 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:51,600 be out there trying to problem solve a number of the scenarios in which they walk in. And it's 165 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:57,520 about giving them some of that why so that they can not only be better problem solvers when they 166 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:04,320 encounter them in the field, but be safer for themselves and the occupants of the structure. 167 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:12,480 I love it. That is a fantastic topic for us to cover. I appreciate you joining us so much. 168 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:18,000 And I look forward to a in-depth version of this down the road. I see it as a possible webcast 169 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,000 because my brain just going that clean air is not as clean as I thought it was. 170 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,320 Yeah, that was only one part of the combustion we explored Clifton. 171 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:32,880 Oh my gosh. All right. I'm interested. Well, Rachel Kaiser, thank you so much for enlightening 172 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:39,280 us on combustion and helping us move that message forward and helping educators and 173 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:45,840 contractors and technicians and students all understand things by getting a deeper vision 174 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,480 of what all these different balloons look like floating around in the sky. Thank you so much, 175 00:19:50,480 --> 00:20:03,360 Clifton.