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Soften your senses, ways to become a better speaker, listener and follower.

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This episode brought to you by Lennox International, providing perfect air through innovative and

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sustainable climate control solutions.

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Learn more at Lennox.com.

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All right, everyone.

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Welcome to Did You Know the Esco HVAC Podcast.

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So we're hanging out here at the 2024 National HVACR Education Conference, and I'm spending

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time with Tom Cates from Lennox International.

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How you doing, Tom?

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Good, good.

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So are you enjoying yourself?

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This is a great show, great show.

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My second time here and it's been really informative.

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Oh my gosh, we've had so much fun and learning about new technologies and innovations.

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And one of the things that we have to focus on is the capabilities and limitations of

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equipment when in considerations to design and selection, making sure we're doing things

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right and we're doing a better job of what we should have always been doing, right?

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Absolutely, absolutely.

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Yeah, equipment selection is critical, especially as we move into this heat pump age that's

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rampant across North America.

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Vector-driven stuff, particularly, VLT-spemodial ACMs.

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Some things can be a little bit more forgiving, but they shouldn't be.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, gas furnaces, right?

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If you put a big enough one in, it would heat your house, right?

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And maybe not necessarily overly efficiently, but the purpose of going heat pumps is efficiency.

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That's what all this is all about.

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And if we're oversized and undersized, the consequences of either one of those is much,

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much greater than what it is with a fossil fuel piece of equipment, for sure.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And so it's going to be really critical.

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So let's walk through some proper practices and best practices in doing that.

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So first off, we got to know what the load of the house is, right?

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Like the building, whatever it is.

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And that's critical.

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And depending on where I go across North America, some people are doing it on a regular basis,

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some people are not.

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So I'm from Toronto, Canada, and in Ontario, it's mandatory in every new house construction

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that a load calculation, duct design, and ventilation report is completed for every

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single new house being constructed.

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So it's created a whole design industry.

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A movement.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And so the other provinces of Canada are kind of a little bit slower in picking this up.

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Now, specific cities have started to adopt it, you know, Vancouver and British Columbia,

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Regina and Saskatoon in Saskatchewan, and Edmonton and Calgary and in Alberta have also

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kind of adopted at least load calculations.

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So it's picking up at the conference here, you know, Ed was talking about, Farakka was

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talking about, you know, the importance of manual J calculations, which is what you guys

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use here in the US.

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In Canada, we use a CSA standard called F280-12.

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And you know, there's been different versions of that standard over the years.

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The newest one, the latest one is a little bit more obviously, a little bit more complicated

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than the older versions, where you actually have to use software really to be able to

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do it properly.

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Proper calculation.

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Yeah.

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That's cool, though, to talk about that, because a lot of people are kind of hesitant to change,

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hesitant to bring in technology and but really, it's just making the work that needs to be

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done has to be done more efficient.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah.

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And the idea behind the software is you got to know what input the right data to input

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in, you get the right output out, right?

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And that's where, you know, folks struggle is they can't always identify what the right

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data to be put in is.

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But once you understand that through either ACCA classes or HRI, which is what we use

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in Canada to teach F28012, once you understand that the process can be quite streamlined

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and simple.

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Yeah.

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And it doesn't have to be complicated.

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It certainly could be, depending on how much detail you want.

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But for the folks that aren't doing it at all, let's just do something as opposed to

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doing nothing.

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And we're moving in the right direction.

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That's right.

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That's my opinion anyway.

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We've seen technology make that so much faster than it has in the past.

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We're seeing applications that can use things like LIDAR for scanning rooms.

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You know, we have so many new tools for making that a lot easier.

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So it's really interesting to be able to talk about the differences between what's happening

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here in the United States and what's happening in Canada.

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And so, Sue, you're already progressing into requirements for load calculations.

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And how is that as a manufacturer?

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Do you see a difference in, say, even like warranty returns and technical support calls?

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You see less in Canada than you would in the United States because we're doing things better?

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I would tend to suggest so.

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That's not my department with Atlantic, so I can't actually comment on it.

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In generalization?

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Absolutely.

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I would assume that's the case.

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So if we know what the load of the house is, we can better select our equipment.

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And then if you've got the right equipment in, then the longevity of that equipment is

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going to stand out.

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And so one feeds in the other for sure, 100%.

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Yeah.

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And a lot of people don't think about that perspective.

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They go, oh, I got to do all this extra work.

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Well, you're doing the extra work so that you do things right.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And I said to one of my students here that we went out to dinner for on Sunday night.

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And he was asking, you know, I'm not getting paid to do these load calculations, so they're

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kind of tough to do.

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And I said, well, just include it as part of your package.

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You don't have to do it upfront.

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But if the customer does decide to go with you and your company, then it's what you're

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going to provide to them as an additional service.

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And it'll actually separate you from your competition in a big way.

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So in theory, you can actually get paid for it because you can charge a little bit more

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because you're documenting the stuff that the homeowner needs available to them.

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And you just included as part of your package price and they don't know any different.

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And you get the benefit of being one level above your competition and doing it right.

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And that's it.

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And so many people are looking at the different avenues to incorporate that into your current

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structure and your current design.

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And all of them say the same thing.

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And I get it.

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If you approach that homeowner and you start talking about actual hard factual data derived

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from a load calculation and you ask them to make sure that their other estimates have

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included that and then they go, oh no, almost all of them say, oh no, no, they don't.

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They didn't do anything like that.

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You have the opportunity to truly show your professionalism.

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Absolutely.

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100%.

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100%.

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Yeah.

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And once you've got the load calc of the building, then you can really start to narrow down what

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the equipment is going to be.

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Especially when you're talking about heat pumps.

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So if it's gas furnace and you get a 55,000 BT load, you're likely putting in a 60,000

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BT furnace that goes along with that.

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But there's much smaller increments of capacity when we talk about heat pumps.

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We're into 6,000 BTs of capacity increments.

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So you can really start to narrow it down.

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And the capital cost of heat pumps are more expensive than a gas furnace as well.

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So when you start to just make a guess, you could be guessing high and cause maybe some

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comfort issues and efficiency issues and capital cost increases.

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If you guess low, you don't meet those comfort expectations that the homeowners assume they've

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been paying for and the efficiency that goes along with it.

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So why are we putting these heat pumps in?

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Certainly the green energy transformation that's going on is part of it.

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But at the end of the day, homeowners are looking to save dollars and cents.

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It's a lot of applications.

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And so having that proper size feeds into the equipment selection process and allows

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you to make some choices around, especially with heat pumps.

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Because we've got small increments.

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And in CSAF 2812, when we're talking about heat pump selection, we generally suggest

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that it's based around the cooling needs of those buildings.

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It depends on what area of the country you're in.

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But we've got a range in CSAF 28 that says you can size your equipment between 80% of

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the calculated load of the building and as high as 125% of the calculated load of the

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building.

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That could be three different capacities of heat pumps.

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So now you've got documentation to say, well, your house actually needs a three ton or a

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36,000 BTU where your competition might come in and say, well, you can get away with a

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2.5 ton or somebody else comes along and goes to the higher scale and says, well, you actually

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need a three and a half ton.

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Now you're not, and we see this all the time.

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I hear from customers, well, I got three different capacities from three different contractors.

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Which one's the right one?

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Well, the right one is the one that goes along with heat loss that they provided for that

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particular building.

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That's exactly right.

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You know, an interesting thing when we're talking about heat pumps is we're struggling

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here in the US for adoption of heat pumps because so many contractors have gotten stigmatized

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by the 1960s and 70s rollout of heat pumps in the US that weren't always successful.

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It all comes down to proper selection and installation and commissioning.

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Always does.

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And so, you know, we're having a little bit of a struggle to encourage people and convince

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people that they absolutely work in the upper part of the United States.

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And here we're talking about heat pumps in Canada.

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Hey, so we know that in the United States in 2022, the cell of heat pumps surpassed

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gas furnaces, right?

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So in Canada, are you seeing a significant increase in the amount of heat pump installation?

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Absolutely.

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100%.

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So the Maritimes kind of east of Ontario, well, Quebec doesn't really have fossil fuel

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as an option.

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So they're almost all electrifications.

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They've got really cheap hydroelectricity generation.

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So it's nice and green and straight electric systems have been promoted in Quebec for a

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long, long time.

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And just switching those straight electric resistance heating to heat pump systems can

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help improve the energy grid, how we're delivering our electricity.

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And then when you move further east into New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island,

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you know, they really don't have natural gas at all.

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And so they were using a lot of oil-based systems.

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And the federal government of Canada has been incentivizing all of Canada, but the Maritimes

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have really taken advantage of it because they don't have fossil fuel.

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So now they're really comparing electrical heat pumps to electrical resistance.

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And now you really do see your three and four coefficient of performance improvement.

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And so there's actual dollars and cents that they can see in their bank account being saved

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free switch from that straight electricity to a heat pump system.

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Yeah.

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And so when you're doing that proper selection, that proper calculation, proper selection,

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and then adding incentives on top of it, and now we've got a consumer that's saving money,

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still living comfortably and contributing to the, I don't always like to call it the

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decarbonization.

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I like to look at it as just the reduction of our carbon footprint in general.

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Yeah.

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And any movement forward to help with that can't hurt.

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No, absolutely can't.

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I mean, it's the right thing.

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No matter how you look at it.

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That's right.

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We can all have disagreement as to whether it's what is being caused, why, but at the

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end of the day, if we're all making one step in front of the other, at some point, we'll

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get to where we want to go.

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We'll make the progress happen.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, 100%.

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Yeah, we'll do it all better together.

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I love hearing that because we have had that struggle here in the US.

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And to know that Canada is embracing that and it's being successful, that takes every

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contractor in America that was curious about whether it would actually be successful in

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the United States and go, oh my gosh, if it's successful in front of us, it has to be successful

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here.

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And Vancouver, the city of Vancouver has essentially eliminated fossil fuel equipment as an option.

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Absolutely.

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It's been removed.

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So when I traveled to BC, Vancouver specifically, I went into the Lennox dealership and the

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guy behind the counter said, no, I don't even have a gas furnace in stock.

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That's all they're selling is a heat pump based application, which was new to me.

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And this was as recent as two years ago.

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So that's a new phase that not every province has adopted.

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But because the city has mandated energy efficiency requirements, that's been the end result.

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That's the drive.

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And I think that's the reason why fossil fuels just no longer accepted in that particular

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city.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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When we look at here in the United States, we're starting to see areas, New York is already

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starting to dive into that with the city and now looking at the state, we have a variety

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of different local jurisdictions as well as counties and states that are moving for that

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adoption.

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So even if we don't make this happen quickly as a country, we're going to see local jurisdictions

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moving that.

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Yeah, they will.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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They will.

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That's what it looks like, and then also to look at successful transitions as well, like

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we're seeing in Canada and going, you know, this absolutely is realistic.

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Yeah.

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And they're not, you know, when I get up into the northern parts of Alberta and Saskatchewan,

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you know, heat pumps alone are probably not the best choice.

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No, you gotta have multiple fuels.

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But a dual fuel option really becomes a viable option for those locations.

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And you know, when you look at load calculations, you can, you know, we base those around the

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worst days, coldest days of the year in winter and the warmest days in summer.

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But you can model that when, you know, for the other days that aren't the coldest, that

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aren't the hottest, and you can really start to see where the heat pump can be beneficial

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in both reducing your carbon footprint as well as saving the dollars and cents.

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And so that leads into, you know, a balance point as to where it makes economically sense

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to run your heat pump for a certain period of the winter season and then switch over

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to your gas furnace for another portion of the winter season.

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You know, Edmonton, Alberta, I think has a minus 40 degree C design temperature.

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It doesn't hit that very often, but they might get 40 degrees.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And so, you know, an air source heat pump at minus 40, even with a cold climate, you

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know, still isn't going to do what we're going to need to.

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Right.

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And so, Alberta, unfortunately, has really expensive electricity costs.

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And so for them to go to an electric backup, it just doesn't make sense.

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And, you know, unfortunately for the federal government, they're getting a lot of pushback

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from the West Coast with this green incentive that the federal government is pushing in

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Canada.

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Yeah, you know, we've talked about this in a variety of different applications and I'm

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kind of the same way.

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You can look at it in any path, any direction you want.

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What it really comes down to is providing a solution that the homeowner is wanting and

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can afford and really fits the bill.

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And so for some people, it's straight heat pump.

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For some people, it's heat pump with electric backup.

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Some it's heat pump with gas.

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Yeah, that's right.

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So there's multiple ways to achieve the desire and the total desire is just getting that

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most efficient system that we can that can serve the purpose of the homeowner.

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And we have those solutions.

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We just have to be willing to look at them.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, we have to be willing.

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And sometimes that's a hurdle that we sometimes have a hard time jumping over.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Thank you so much for joining us.

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I really appreciate having you here and look forward to seeing you.

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Well, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of Lennox and

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in the entire industry.

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I'm going to come back to this show as much as I possibly can.

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And I've got a new colleague that I brought this year and I'm going to bring a couple

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more next year.

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There we go.

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It's great having you here, my friend.

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Thanks a lot.

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Thanks for having me.

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Thanks for having me.