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softened your senses ways to become a better speaker, listener, and

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follower. This episode brought to you by the United Association,

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bringing excellence, productivity and safety to the trades.

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Learn more at UA.org.

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All right, everyone. Thank you for joining us once again on Did

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You Know the ESCO HVAC podcast. So we are hanging out at the 2024

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National HVACR Education Conference. And as you can tell,

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it is a hustle and a bustle here with 1200 educators from around

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the country and Canada. And we're spending time learning how

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to become better educators and making sure that we're providing

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a very solid educational platform for our students. So I'm

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spending time with Mr. Rich Benkowski. How are you, sir?

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Very good. And we're glad to be here. This is a one of those

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unique conferences that allows some great networking with the

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HVAC manufacturers and their latest technology, and the

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instructors getting that next generation ready for so, you

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know, great job here. And as the numbers grow, that just speaks

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to the integrity of how much there is to learn here.

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It does. You know, when we talk about how many are here to learn

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about the new technology, I think it's very important that

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we we focus on the content that we're delivering, making sure

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that we're doing a good job of building our curriculum, that

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we're presenting in a way that is understandable. And you have

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spent a good part of your career just in that taking, taking

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technical concepts, but then helping deliver those in the

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right way. Would you say that that's been an important part of

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you?

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Well, that's been part of my passion and part of my focus,

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certainly, and making sure that and I would just call it making

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it right. We want to get the right, right material of the

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right quality to the right student, but at the right time.

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And with technology changing faster than we can keep up with

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sometimes, that that makes it more of a challenge for us

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culturally as instructors to manage and meter the flow to

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those students as we get nurtured them and help them

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navigate so that they have value in the service truck so that

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they the the hour of work that they put in, they're compensated

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for, and they can have a nice life for their family. That's

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that's what it's about.

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It truly is. You know, we think about the delivery that we need

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today is probably not the same delivery that we needed five

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years ago that we needed 20 years ago, because the equipment

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has changed and the learners have changed as well. And so a

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lot of the classes that we're seeing here at the conference

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are I wouldn't call them soft skills, I would say that they

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are learning new skills for delivery and being able to

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communicate effectively because you brought that up about

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making sure it's right, the content is right, but even the

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timing is right. So let's dive into that a little bit.

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Well, and that's one of the unique things of working in the

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HVAC industry, as you know, no matter how many years you go to

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school, or if you earn a degree and what kind of technology you

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understand, this career is a lifelong learning challenge, you

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can never leave the classroom for the last time, unless you

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retire, I guess. And that's for all of us, as things develop,

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and the impact of technology and the manufacturers need an

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ability to meet that market demand, that also then

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translates into the education back into the classroom. So

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today's instructors have a lot of a lot of these impacts, and I

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would even say disruptions to manage when, when Google what

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nest, that was kind of a disruption. Oh, yeah, Google

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was buying a thermostat that was not a complicated device. But

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they're abiding date buying data. So that meant that we, we

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had to all sit back and say, Oh, what else is in that data? How

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do you harvest the data? You know, how relevant important is

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it? So it did force us to put things into the curriculum, maybe

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the student coming into an HVAC industry was not expecting to

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need to learn. Yeah, does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. It

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does. And, and then even the changes in the core elements,

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you know, variable flow systems. 15 years ago, 20 years ago, that

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wasn't in anybody's curriculum. But now you can't, you know, and

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heat pumps, look at how heat pumps today have surged to the

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forefront of clean energy electrification, a lot of

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incentivized systems then have to do with heat pump technology

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that, yeah, we learned about we knew about, we said, Oh, don't

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use them in Minnesota, you know. But now it's, it's, it's the

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everyday piece of equipment, it's every man's piece of

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equipment. So those are some of the challenges for us. And

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reasons why we have to help somebody that's even been in the

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field for 10, 15, 20 years, come on back to the classroom, we're

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going to help you have more value for the contractor and for

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your customer. The end result is the customer needs to trust what

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we know and how we do it. So there are some challenges.

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Absolutely. I've got a podcast scheduled for later today. I'm

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sitting out here with a couple of our experienced educators,

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one of which was 92 years old. And I said, Sir, what are you?

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What are you here at the conference for? He says, I'm

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here to learn. Oh, you're coming into a podcast if I can.

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Yeah, exactly. Oh, exactly. But but that's, that's a great

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example. That is a great example for a student to understand that

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all of us are still looking to make sure we understand the

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right thing at the right time.

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Yeah, I think it's very important for us all to stay up

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to date with the changes in the industry. And keeping an eye on

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what's happening. So as educators, this we gather here

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so that we can stay up to date. But as as students, and as

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technicians, I think it is very important as well, to ask those

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questions, hey, what's coming to the industry?

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Oh, exactly. And then, and then to meter it in the right way. And

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of course, we said with the right quality. Yeah. But, you

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know, even with the we just spoke of heat pumps, a lot of

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the heat pumps will have flammable refrigerants in them.

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So now we're not just teaching about what the what the working

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pressures ought to be. But let's talk a little bit about safety.

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Yeah, you know, because as for customer service, when the

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customer understands that we're going to have a propane system

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near their house, we want to reassure them that we can work

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safely with it. And it's no harm to their family. And oh, by the

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way, it has a low GDP and low D P. So that if it should leak,

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it's not going to be environmentally unsafe. But and

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those are things that we must keep refreshing and learning the

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thing to even if we were doing the best things for conservation

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of refrigerants and reclaiming at all, that is still evolving.

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Everything is always evolving.

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Yeah, ever ever changing, which is the beauty of this industry.

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So many of our students look at HVAC and all they know is, you

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know, a furnace or maybe an air conditioner, they don't see the

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the depth of what we are actually involved with and all

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of the new technologies that come forward that is constantly

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evolving us. We've seen so many changes in our industry, in our

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career. And yet we look to the future going, we're just

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constantly evolving. It's not like it's something new. There's

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always something new.

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Well, here, here's both end of the spectrum, the needle one end

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says, it's always about heat transfer. Yes, it's always about

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moving one BTU from where we don't want it to someplace we

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don't care. Yes. So we move BTU from inside the building to

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outside the building. But now as the the pressure is on everyone

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to not waste any BTUs, that's energy. That's funny. Absolutely.

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So when we look at thermal energy networks that move BTUs

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from one building to another, or in the semiconductor industry,

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take a lot of that heat generated and move those BTUs

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around the building, we could be on the verge of not even use

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needing cooling towers anymore. Who could imagine a system in a

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10 story building or a 20 story building, or 1 million square

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foot plant without a cooling top?

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That's hard to fathom is but if you don't, but realistic, it is

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realistic. And there's even some projects in New York City,

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they're taking a six block area with 22 buildings, designing and

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installing a thermal energy network that is going to create,

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should I say a perpetual BTU. And I want to thank AGA thermal

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for that term. But that's the idea if we could conceptually

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get to a perpetual BTU, that we're not wasting heat. So

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again, but one of the core elements being heat transfer,

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we're still going to teach that we're still going to teach how

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the legacy systems work. But if a tech walks up to a building

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and there's no cooling tower, and everyone's comfortable, oh

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mine, what did we just stumble? Right? Where's the heat? Yeah.

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So the evolution into thinking never, ever stops because the

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challenge of transferring large amounts of heat at the least

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cost is always in front of us and as society, we're pretty

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clever. Once we know the energy cost, we're going to work to

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to, to, to lower it. But then that means come on back to the

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classroom, let's talk about a perpetual BTU. Yeah, you know,

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yeah, we didn't talk about that 10 and 20 years ago. No, we just

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say, hey, throw that BTU lots on. We don't care. Get rid of it.

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I just don't want it here. Yeah, we're not going to overheat

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the counter. It's fine. And my utilities aren't that bad. So

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just give me something that works. And I think those days

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are gone.

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Well, they are. And you know, how long geothermals have been

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kicking around and how exchanging with with the Earth's

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temperature has always been a way to cut costs. Now that's

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that's back on the table too. There's more and more of it. But

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so even though we understand compressors fans, you know, and

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pumps, you know, we're still moving air, water and

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refrigerant. But now we have to also understand that's that's

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systemically, the components might be in a different spot.

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Yeah, they have to run at a different speed. You're a couple

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of different manufacturers do it a couple different ways. So that

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that for, you know, for an instructor, I think that's all

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part of the fun. And if we can translate that to the students

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to help them understand, we're glad you're graduating from our

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program. But we hope to see you soon. Yeah, exactly. And that

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that helps us to make it right to get the right information to

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right quality, but also at the right time, you know, because

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with the ATLs this morning on our workshop, we talked about

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we talked about the national brazing certification that actually

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that idea that moment of dawning comprehension was in 2014 at

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this conference, really, you know, when ATLs were starting to

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come up, manufacturers were saying, well, who's going to

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braze all that pipe on the variable flow system if it's

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broken? How do we know this person can braze? Well, in 2014,

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that discussion started. And now today in Colorado, they

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alleged they have legislation that says if you're going to

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work on an ATL system, and braze that pipe, you need to be

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certified to braze and also trained in ATLs. Really? That is

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landline. That is so you know, so that the techs out there that

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they're thinking, I've been doing this for 15 years. No, no

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big deal. It is a big it is a very big. And that's another

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reason to come back. And sometimes, and you may have

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heard this too, especially in the educators conference, are

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you guys a teacher just looking for ways to trick us to come

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back? Yeah, yeah. No, it's not. There's no magic. There's no

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pixie dust. Yeah, it's not a trick. No, you know, the market

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shifts, the market moves. If you want to maintain your lifestyle,

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you need to keep learning. You have to adapt. And that's not a

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bad thing. No, it really isn't a bad thing. It's a commitment.

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So a lot of the schools, it's a commitment to have new

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technology come in. It's a commitment by the manufacturers.

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And by the way, this is one of the few conferences annually

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you can go to, to witness firsthand the manufacturers

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commitment. Yeah, you know, it's real, it's true. And we're not

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nobody's opposed to this marriage of manufacturing and

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education and the labor, because we all need each other to be

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successful. You better believe the manufacturers want to a

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certified brazier or somebody trained in a two l's as much as

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the homeowner. Exactly. You know, so that's that moving

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forward. Those are the challenges.

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Yeah, I've seen more manufacturers represented at our

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conference this year than I have ever seen. And I think it does

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it comes back to an entire industry that is moving at light

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speed making transitions that are happening faster than people

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would realize we I have seen educators that are asking me if

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they should be teaching low GWP safety in their classroom. And I

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had one educator that came to me and told me that his

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administration give him 30 days to become a to L certified, or

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he wasn't maintaining his job because they were going to be

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focusing on the safe handling of refrigerants going forward. And

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that's really the system the transition that we are seeing is

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that we're having to reevaluate not just our programs, but

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ourselves, to make sure that we are prepared for the changes

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that we know and even some changes that we're not aware of

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yet. Oh, that that's exactly right. And for the

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administration of a of a school system to recognize and react

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that aggressively to it. Very. That's not unusual. Yeah, that's

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not because the headlines are out there. It does take time for

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things to ice in. And that's the other part of of of our challenge

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as educators is that we if we're not looking five years out,

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we're going to be behind 100% agree. And one of the other

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reality to that cliff is when we look at best opportunities for

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all of our students to have a good career. It's about early

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adoption of technology early adoption of new equipment or new

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refrigerants. But at the same time, sometimes early adoptions

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are lonely road. I live that life. And it's and it's but it's

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behavior modification, the same as safety training is behavior

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modification, you know, with that. But when you look at all

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the studies and the analysis of it, the early adult when you

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compare the slope of early adoption to the slope of market

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share, early adoption and market share cross at the highest

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point. Makes sense. So as educators, we can't ever not

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think about the one product that we're building, we build one

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product, it's sold one hour at a time. That's it. I'm not

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oversimplifying it. We're getting a student ready to go

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out there and be viable to a contractor that's going to build

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that time one hour at a time. That's our product. So with

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that, we have to make sure that in the assembly line and

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conveyor belt of learning that that product is is relevant and

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viable. So that's where the struggle becomes and for

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administrators to look at and say, okay, now's the time this

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is this is the meaning of the right quality at the right time.

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So we've been hearing about brazing certifications and

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chatter since 2014. Hearing about A2Ls and code since since

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what 2015 2016. It's time. Time's on. You have to prepare your

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students for both the contractors on your advisory

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councils that participate, I'm sure probably helped the

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administrators understand the sense of urgency. Because even

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with some of the code language that came out, the the

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manufacturers were telling the code bodies, the product is

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ready, it's safe. Let's go. Some of us in education says, wait,

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we don't have the we don't have the safety module training yet.

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Pause a little bit. Now we're ready. The manufacturers are

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ready. The codes are in place for for that type of buildings

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with that type of equipment. That's good. Yeah. But there's

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a lot of moving parts there, right? Yeah, there's a lot of

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moving parts of things that evolve. So somebody that would

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walk into your conference today and said, I heard about this

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propane stuff, you know, so I barbecue at home with it. And

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and now somebody saying it's in my air conditioner. Yes, don't

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worry, as an industry, we've been figuring this out for a

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long time. Absolutely. You know, but then, so what do you think

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the next challenge will be? We talked about how when when

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Google bot nests that was kind of a disruption to our industry

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because they were buying data. So fast forward to today, if

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we're not preparing our students to navigate and harvest

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data that with AI and machine learning, we're going to be

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behind their teeth, because that's that's going to accelerate

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and move faster than anything. It's almost like, you know,

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they first they said data was the new oil. Well, if it's the

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new oil, then clicks are the currency. The more things you

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collect, the more money you're going to make a less money

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you're going to make. But at the same time, it's great to have

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have that ability with cognitive buildings for your tech to sit

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in his living room and the facility manager from the local

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community college called and says, Hey, our children

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temperature is a little warm. And he looks at his iPad said,

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Yeah, it is. Let me reset it for you. Click. Yes. So that's, I

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know it sounds like we're just, you know, it may sound like,

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oh, that guy's just ramming. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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moving pieces that are landing on our desk at one time at one

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time. And when they saw moving, became real. Yeah, I almost

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feel like you and I are the sports broadcasters. And we're

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in the last few minutes in the last quarter. And everyone is

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excited. And everyone's waiting for the final outcome. And we

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know know that there's something big getting ready to

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happen. Exactly. And that's what we're trying to do. We're

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trying to just prepare for that to make sure we're doing it

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right, make sure that I can have the opportunity to make it

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right for myself, for my school for my administrators, for my

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students, for the contractors that I'm preparing those

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students to take these skills to. Oh, exactly. So the

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management of that flow of information, you know, and one

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of the things we have to understand about technology,

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technology isn't used to save time, right? It's not. It is

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used to feed and expand the system. And what it does as an

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educator, it just, it just fills our, we're just crammed with

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stuff. Yeah. But we can't ignore it. It's too big to

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ignore. You know, you can't go on are the days where that

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student is going to put his cell phone in the cardboard box on

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your desk until the end of class. That's a tool. It's a

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teaching tool. And if you think about it, you know, we NASA got

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astronauts to the moon with a slide. So great analogy. Oh,

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wait a minute. Our students today, our students today, your

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cell phone is going to be your side. Yeah. For those students

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and their wives are going to say, well, how many slide rules

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do you have now? Which why do you have so many slide rules in

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a drawer? That's going to be cell phones. It is a generation

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from now. So, so, so that's, that's why the early adopters

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can pick up the bigger part of the market share because they

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normalize. So, and how do you normalize the information while

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you're metering it to the right person at the right time? You

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know, conceptually, that's still another challenge, but, and it

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sounds like some of these is insurmountable, but it's not. The

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reason the educators are here and the reason this, this crowd

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is here looking for information. They have the expertise, large,

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maybe 80, 90%, if not a hundred percent have worked in the

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field. They're living it and they're teaching it. You can't

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get a better combination in the classroom than somebody that

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lives it and is coming in to help you understand. Absolutely.

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You know, so, and, and that helps the normalization too. Oh,

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that guy can do it. I, I, doesn't it right? You know, it's

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sometimes, you know, students may be intimidated by walking in

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front of a thousand ton chiller as, as, you know, just out of

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school and the service tech is working on it and it's like,

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okay, he'd learned it somewhere. Absolutely. There are she and,

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and I can, I can do the same thing, you know, so it's, it's

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a normalization of the material that takes time to it. And I

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had an engineer tell me once, which you got to give the

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student soaking time, you have to let it soak. So that's,

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that's what helped me understand that concept of the right

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amount of material, the right time to the right person, not

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just throwing it out or filling up a blackboard class here, go

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to all these schedules and come back to me where you're done.

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Yeah. Somebody will be done in a week, other people a month,

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but if you're not sitting there with them, whether it's a

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digital platform or not, if you're not there with them,

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help them navigate, then it might be a disservice to the

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student. Yeah. I think we're going to see a lot more of

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technology being that kind of tool because we're not going,

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we're probably not going to be adding hours onto our program.

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We're probably going to try to maintain our program, but add

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additional information into it. And how do we do that? We have

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to be the early adopters. We have to make sure we're

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understanding the tools that are around us and bringing those

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into the, like you said, the normalcy of it, understanding

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that it's not a significant change when we present it as

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this is where we are. This is where we're going. This is what

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you need to know. Let us help you understand it. And then it

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becomes a common practice for us. Well, and that's all very

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true, but here's one aspect of it that sometimes for the

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instructors may sound a little bit intimidating, but as you

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lay out your digital platforms, one thing that will happen will

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happen is self acceleration. Yes. The students that

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understand the platforms and are able to look ahead, let's

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say, they may self accelerate and look to get to a program

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sooner. But as an educator, I look and say, okay, if we

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manage the self acceleration, that is helpful to everybody in

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the classroom. But that's not new. Before there were

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computers, you had some kids that would read ahead in a book

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or some that would understand troubleshooting. And then they

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became kind of a co-instructor with you. You go into the lab

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and while you have 15 people troubleshooting, you may say,

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hey, John or Ed, please help your friend over there. Go to

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this lab desk and help them with that meeting. So now you

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have peer to peer conversations, which to the student are

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very valuable. Oh yeah, absolutely. I hear you. I can do

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this. So, but self acceleration accelerates for technology and

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that's not an overuse of the word, but that's something else

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that if we learn and understand that we come get comfortable

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with it, or we normalize in the classroom, it becomes a plus.

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So we don't fear it. We can encourage it because we're

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giving students the tools to move at their own pace. And you

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students in the HVAC industry are self motivated. They know

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there's a job when they're done. They see it out there. They

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hear it every day from other podcasts, from other entities

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about how the trades need more workers and they can work as

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many hours as they want, as long as they want, as often as

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they want. So they can manage their own margins, their own

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life's margins. But for us, we should not fear the technology

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in the classroom because that's something that's never going to

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go backwards. You know, when they talked about the speed of

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it, you and I may be young enough to remember that as well

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that one time technology rolled over every seven years, then it

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was every seven months, then it was every seven weeks, then it

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was every seven days. I think that's it moves quicker. I

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think especially with AI. Yeah, Howard Weiss and I keep having

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this conversation about how rapidly technology is advancing

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and if we're not at least being open minded to utilizing that

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technology in the classroom, we may have a false sense of duty

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to our students because they're going to be learning at a rate

401
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that we may not even be able to comprehend because they're

402
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being introduced to this technology at such a faster rate

403
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than we are as educators. There's no question about that. I

404
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:13,860
like that phrase of false sense of duty because that because

405
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that just kind of unmasks our fear. Yes, it is and and we we

406
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can't be fearful of it because it's so much a part of even

407
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life. Yeah, you know when you when you look at the students,

408
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if you ask them to put their cell phones away during class,

409
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we're forgetting one thing, everybody and everything that

410
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means anything to that student is a one or zero on their cell

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phone. It's exactly everything. If educators aren't there and

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that one stream of ones and zeros were invisible. Yeah, if

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you were invisible in a classroom, how could you teach

414
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you know and there's so many tools that enable that in in

415
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today's industry and that's that's what we do is we try to

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bring these tools to the conference every week on the

417
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show in our podcast help people understand that we're all here

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going through the same process. We're all seeing these

419
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technologies and innovations. We all have a sense of fear

420
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:15,940
going into it but together we absolutely are going to be

421
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successful. No question about it and we're not endorsing it to

422
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the point that we're saying it's infallible. Murphy always

423
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:27,060
comes in uninvited but what what's the difference between a

424
00:27:27,060 --> 00:27:31,060
screen going black or you had a vacuum pump. You're trying to

425
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evacuate a system and the motor burned out. Yeah, same thing.

426
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Same thing. It's just unplugged. Put another one in. I mean so

427
00:27:37,540 --> 00:27:40,660
the obstacles for us are the same whether the digital or

428
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analog in our experiences in the classroom but we we just

429
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knowing that we as educators and the educators that come here

430
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:54,820
that of all ages that want to keep learning if we could get

431
00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:58,580
that emotion if we could hand that emotion and passion to our

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students, they'll they'll have a successful career. They'll

433
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never be without work.

434
00:28:05,620 --> 00:28:09,860
Mr. Rich Binkowski, I'm so grateful to have you here. I do.

435
00:28:09,860 --> 00:28:12,260
I feel like we're these news broadcasters or sports

436
00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:16,660
broadcasters and that's wonderful and there goes two

437
00:28:16,660 --> 00:28:21,460
more ones. That's right. That's right. Bye. Alright, everyone

438
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have a wonderful day and we'll see you on the next episode.