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Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables, where we dive into teaching and learning methodologies

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for professionals like you.

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One of the primary topics of this year's educational conference is heat pumps and particularly

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cold climate heat pumps.

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This conversation will enlighten you on areas that you may not have considered for heat

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pump adoption.

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Hello everyone.

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Thank you for joining us on Did You Know the ESCO HVAC Show.

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So we're just about to wrap up the 2024 National HVACR Education Conference here in Las Vegas.

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And I'm spending time with Kevin Furtinsky.

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How are you, sir?

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I'm very well.

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Thank you.

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You know, we started talking early on into this conference about technologies and heat

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pumps and you're a significantly large contractor, right?

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Yes, we are.

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One of the larger heat pump installers.

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Yes.

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Not in the U.S.?

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No, not in the U.S.

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Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

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And so it sparked the conversation of, okay, let's talk about this because we are having

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a bit of a struggle in the United States to convince contractors of the adoption of not

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just heat pumps, but heat pumps that work in colder climates.

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We are starting to have a new generation of equipment, especially due to the DOE's initiative

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for the cold climate heat pump challenge, so that we're seeing new products that are

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qualified by companies like Energy Star as being cold climate certified and rated and

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what that actually means.

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And so there's a couple of different things going on with that.

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But what's really important is that we look at the adoption side of heat pumps in general.

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And so here in the U.S., there are a lot of people who say north of Mason-Dixon line,

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we don't want to install heat pumps, right?

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Right.

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Well, you and I are going to talk about installing them north of the U.S.-Canada line.

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The 49 parallel.

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The 49 parallel.

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So now we're moving that line way forward so that we can talk about how heat pumps are

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actually performing in these conditions.

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Yeah, it is a little bit more of a challenge, particularly where I come from in Alberta.

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It's one of the most unique places in the world where the term Chinook comes in.

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And Chinook is a unique climatological occurrence that happens when the warm Pacific winds blow

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over the Rocky Mountains and we can have temperature changes and bear with me, I speak in Celsius,

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you're familiar with that, but we'll potentially see a 20 degree Celsius temperature change

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within a matter of hours.

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So we can go from very cool to very warm quickly.

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We can also go from very warm to very cool very quickly.

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So we do see that experience that as well.

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So that brings another factor into trying to make these decisions.

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Solar loading in the north as well.

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Solar loading is a big one.

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I speak of solar loading, what effect that a cold day temperature wise on the exterior

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of a building and the addition of the sun loading with particular windows, the types

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of construction, colors of homes, colors of roofs.

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Now all play into this as well too.

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They are.

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And that building science comes into play and another big part of the education of that

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and selection of equipment as well.

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That selection of equipment is so critical.

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So we've gotten into conversations of the rating systems that are utilized for heat

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pumps and those are in design conditions and you definitely don't have design conditions.

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No, far from, far from.

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And it is such a wide variety, especially types of construction is a big one as well.

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It depends on the age of the home, not only duct sizing, but we have the differentiation

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between a two by four construction on the exterior walls to a two by six, two by six

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sealed, all of those as well too.

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Much similar.

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I know we're talking similar things, but also big considerations that need to be taken into

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that because the infiltration of a two by six to two by four is a big thing as well.

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Yeah.

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So we're starting to spend a lot more time looking at the envelope, looking at the entire

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structure and ways that we can improve it to reduce that, that capacity of our system.

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So we get better matchups and try to get our size to, you know, a proper load sizing for

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the conditions that we have.

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Now one of the things that we were talking about is jurisdictions, even in Canada, that

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are really moving forward and being very aggressive about the electrification movement or the

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decarbonization.

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And so even in Canada, we're starting to see places where gas heating are not being allowed

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to be installed.

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Yes.

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Vancouver, west of Calgary on the Pacific coast, they are looking at and are making

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the moves to not allowing gas, natural gas installations any further.

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They're going to all electric and any retrofits, which is a residential retrofit is our specialty

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that they're moving away from natural gas and having to electrify even in commercial

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as well.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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We're starting to hear a lot of that here in the U S. So when we think about the adoption

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of that, when we think about the technology that is change and evolved, like here in the

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United States, we had a, a kind of a push for heat pump integrations back in the 1960s,

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1970s, and it wasn't very successful.

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Some of that had to do with technology.

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Some of it had to do with proper installation and maintenance.

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And so there was a bit of a stigma with heat pumps here in the United States.

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And so now that we're really talking about reintroducing heat pumps on much larger scales,

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mass scales, did you encounter the same scenarios, Canada?

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Yes.

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My background does cross over from commercial to the residential side.

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And in the commercial side, there was that, that slower, less aggressive approach that

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was being taken, but in the residential it's, it's very, a very big push.

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We just, Canada just wound up the greener homes grant program, which was a significant

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rebates from the federal government based on selection of equipment for installation

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that potentially up to $7,500 credit, right?

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That was given the requirements were home auditor, pardon me, energy modeling, energy

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audit, things like that.

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You were all required, blower door testing, things like that.

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Oh, nice.

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But people were very willing to jump in and have it done.

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I think that the, the overall attitude is changing as well with Alberta, particularly

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where I come from now is that we've always been that natural resource energy provider.

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We provide a significant amount of natural gas to the all of North America market oil

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as well.

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And typically the old school attitude between commercial and residential was both throw

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more heat at it, but there was never the consideration of, of comfort cooling.

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And so that thought process wasn't there.

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So that's a big change now.

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And I think that that's the societal change.

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That's mindset change.

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People are looking at what benefits these have, even so much so it plays a little bit

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of havoc with the infrastructure and the homes that we have that we're typical looking at

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homes that only have a hundred amp service in them.

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And even 200 amps now that you're out, you put a electric water tank, a car charger and

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a hot tub.

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Sorry, we're not talking about heat pump anymore.

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Those types of things, even so much so that we, there are certain communities within Calgary

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that are, have made a move to all electric in, in residential as well too, which is very

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outside of that box that we typically think of natural resource energy coming from that,

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you know, it's a typical strip town home complex that is everything is electric.

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We have one example of one area and the show home that was built first era of all of the

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other, we've gone in and given them several quotes for replacement and installations and

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things like that.

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The show home was set up on hundred amp service, but the remainder of all the units are 200

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amp service.

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So there's a problem, you know, and we can't do anything about that.

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So it makes it even more of a challenge yet to what we could do and present issues, but

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the mindset's there and that's the most positive thing about it, I think.

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And working with people, it's our intent.

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Yeah.

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So let's think about that mindset and that shift of mindset that is happening.

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Cause we see it here and of course there's always a little bit of pushback, but once

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we get past that initial pushback, there's a lot of acceptance in it and a lot of promotion

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of it.

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So as a contractor in Canada, let's step back, let's just say five years, five years

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ago, what was your mix of equipment for installations?

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Heat pumps versus gas furnaces.

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One hundred and zero.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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Very, very well, I shouldn't say that there were limited, limited selections for heat

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pumps.

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I was in Vancouver, five years ago and in Vancouver, the lower mainland most particularly,

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which is north, very similar to Seattle type of, a much more different mindset.

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Typically they would have on a 20 to 25 year old construction residentially, they might

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have a forced air furnace for the basement main floor, electric baseboards for upstairs,

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second floor, which would support infrastructure and the addition of heat pumps was starting

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to happen in newer construction five years ago.

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So it was much more adopted there as opposed to Alberta where that growth is much slower,

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but is certainly catching up.

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So what would you say that is in the beginning of 2024 in comparison to that five year ago

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period?

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As far as natural resource too.

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Yeah, or heat pumps.

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Heat pumps?

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I think we're probably about 90, 85% natural and 15% electric.

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So it's growing, getting much better.

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And that was a big part of that was the government grants that were available, incentivizing

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people.

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There are other grants and very similar to what we learned from DOE and the speaker this

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morning that there are other incentives for you guys that seem to be tracking very similar

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to what you...

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Yeah, it sounds like it's very similar to what you...

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Very much so.

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And even that's coming, there'll be new programs introduced probably within the next couple

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of months that will identify...

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How do you make that?

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Yeah, especially though, and one that did catch my ear was specifically about lower

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income type housing.

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It's broadening the market somewhat.

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Isn't it though?

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And also types of equipment that are available, there's so much more equipment available now

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that does not necessarily need to meet certain...

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When I say this, that we do track with our organizations the requirements that they must

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meet i.e.

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AHRI and matchups and things like that, that we did have a little bit of a difficulty with

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one of the lines that we carry that we did bring in an option for our customers as well

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too that we could still do it.

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It's not as energy efficient, but still did meet the requirements, which opens up a little

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bit more of a segment.

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But I think that's where that mindset that we spoke of originally, people having natural

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gases is very inexpensive comparatively speaking.

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We pay more for electricity than we do for natural gas, of course, or as most do, where

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Vancouver as I spoke about before, you pay more for natural gas than you do for electricity.

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So there's a little bit of a flip flop there.

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So broadening the market will help and expanding the audience for sure.

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I know one of the initiatives here in the United States was to not have the electric

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system back up heating on a heat pump system.

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And that's something that we have to talk about when we're talking about load calculations

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and what are the proper heat pump scenarios, because a heat pump can be really good, it

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can be designed for a cold climate application and can serve a lot of purposes.

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But as we continue to drop into our very low negative temperatures, it's not going to be

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able to provide enough heat for our structure.

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So I'm an advocate of dual fuel applications.

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I'm really an advocate of making a comfortable solution for everyone.

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Agreed.

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And doing it as energy efficient as possible.

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And reliable as possible.

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So reliable as possible.

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So what are the typical installations that we have seen in Canada, especially as it relates

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to these heat pump incentives?

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Natural gas and electric heat pumps.

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So true dual fuel.

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Yeah, true dual fuel.

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Again, there's another challenge and that's where at the outset of our conversation here

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very quickly was that we do have those big temperature swings.

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Yes.

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And we did experience that beginning of January.

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Again, we were down into the match point, I guess, minus 32.

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And there's nothing that's going to run at minus 32.

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And there's not even a lot of electric options.

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Very difficult to maintain that as well too.

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So that's where really the natural gas is still the weapon of choice.

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Yeah, the primary and secondary heat source.

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Exactly.

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To overcome those challenges.

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And because it reacts very quickly, people are comfortable with it.

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They recognize it.

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You know, when you have 150 degree air from a supply grill with natural gas, forced air

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heating, people know it's on.

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They know it's operating.

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It's like, okay, I'm on gas.

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I'm good now.

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We'll be right tonight.

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Yeah.

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That's, again, another mindset that's a little bit more difficult that we have to overcome

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that, you know, the typical operation of these things as well too.

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Yes.

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Yeah, indeed.

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So a lot of interesting things happening in Canada that we can look at as a reference

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point as we start as a contractor, particularly.

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How do I diversify my product line?

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Because we've seen here just in the Midwest, we've seen contractors that won't even offer

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heat pumps as options.

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They don't believe that they're a functional option.

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And the consumers are asking for them.

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Agreed.

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Again, I think it's that mindset.

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I know we keep, we speak to that term and use that so often, but it's what people are

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comfortable with.

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Yes.

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What's acceptable to everybody.

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And I think, you know, the overall with contractors, understanding better the technology, teaching

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the reason we're here, teaching your technicians, your installers, how to install it properly,

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how to work with it, how to be comfortable around it is a big factor with it as well

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too.

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Yeah.

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So any other trends that you see north of the border that people are talking about in

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the industry?

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Indoor air quality is a significant factor for us.

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As I've noticed in Las Vegas this week that I've been here, it's very dry.

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Oh my gosh, it's been horrible on the sinuses.

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Oh yeah.

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Even from the guy from Alberta to say this, that, you know, we are dry typically.

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I know one of the things we've spoken of, I heard related a little bit to indoor air

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quality is mold.

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And I know that's an issue in other parts of Canada for sure, but you know, on the prairies,

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that is not an issue.

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We're always humidifying, not dehumidifying.

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So that's a big one.

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But yeah, indoor air quality is a significant factor because when it's dry, you also experience

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more of those things that affect the homeowner and you know, all the users.

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And comfort is a big thing, especially in residential.

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It's the haven of where we live and you know, enjoy what we're doing.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I see that growing and developing here as well.

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We're seeing a lot of comfort specialists, which tend to be, you know, really IAQ specialists.

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Yes, very much so.

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All right.

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Anything else we want to dive into while we've got a chance?

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Totally loved my opportunity to be here.

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Glad to meet you, man.

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We've had so many fun conversations.

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A fateful year to get me here and have super enjoyed it.

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I've made some tremendous acquaintances, future friendships, most certainly.

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And looking forward to coming back.

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And as a contractor, and again, a little bit of a different approach that we're taking

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in educating our own people and growing our technicians, knowledge is the biggest thing

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you can do.

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It is absolutely the power that, you know, and related to this, heat pumps, get out there,

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teach people.

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Support from the manufacturers is huge.

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Dyken is amazing at doing what they're doing to help our organization particularly.

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And those resources, they're invaluable.

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Really to have the opportunity to speak to other people within the trades from a different

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perspective of other than being just a typical contractor.

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But you know, these people are developing technicians that are coming into the trades

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that, you know, I think that my most common phrase that I use with anybody that I have

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had through my training room and things like that is get comfortable being uncomfortable.

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And learn and challenge yourself because it will pay off at the end.

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And that's the same thing.

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And I think that's the big thing with heat pumps, with technology and education within

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the trades.

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It's that move is here.

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Your reference to automotive mechanics and having to learn, there's this is the future.

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It's upon us and that was the time.

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So well spoken.

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Kevin Fortinsky, thank you so much for joining my friend.

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I look forward to a future friendship here.

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I as well.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.