Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.
This episode brought to you by Kysor- Warren, committed to reducing the carbon footprint
and helping businesses embrace eco-friendly practices.
Learn more at Kysorwarren.com.
All right, everyone, thank you for joining us.
We're hanging out at the 2024 National HVACR Education Conference.
We're spending some time with our friends from Kysor-Warren.
How are you guys doing?
Very good, thanks.
You want to introduce yourselves before we get hopping in here?
Yeah, I'm Dale Sizemore.
We're Kysor Warren, Director of Technical Services.
I've been there since my 30th year in June.
Wow, fantastic.
I am Ignacio Chaparro.
I am doing the new product development and new technologies, almost 18 years in May.
All right, so you guys have both seen a lot of changes in our industry, right?
So I'm a refrigeration geek at heart.
So, again, this is going to be a good conversation.
I started in the late 90s and I started in a commercial refrigeration, but I was working
on a lot of small products.
So I was still working on a lot of CFC equipment, right?
So I got to see that CFC phase out.
I got to see the HCFC phase out.
We're currently in this HFC phase down.
The thing that we really have to focus on is as educators, many of us have worked on
what we might call a traditional refrigerant, even though it's not really, you know, we've
seen a variety of changes in refrigerants, but we're actually starting to make a migration
back into our natural refrigerants.
So a long time, if we actually trace the history of refrigerants, CO2 was a very, very popular
refrigerant when we were talking about commercial ice manufacturing back into the turn of the
last century, not this one.
Right? CO2 is a fantastic refrigerant, but unfortunately we started working with some
refrigerants that were under less pressure that had environmental consequences.
And so as a world, we are transitioning away from our HFC refrigerants and there are other
refrigerants out there like HFOs.
But when we talk about long term, our natural refrigerants are most have no ozone depleting
potential, have very low global warming potential, and really is the way that we're going to
succeed going forward.
But many of us educators were technicians in the field.
And so we may not have had a lot of experience with things like CO2.
So let's talk a little bit about where Kaiser Warren is moving forward in the industry and
moving into our natural refrigerants.
Yes, our focus is on natural refrigerants at this point.
We still build the traditional equipment.
It's still the majority of what we build, but the natural refrigerants are growing.
They're doubling almost every year in percentage of our production.
Our direction is transcritical CO2, we call it DCO2 for short.
And that's the direction we pick.
There are many options out there with CO2 and liquid overfeed and combination racks
and combinations of CO2 and glycol.
There's different customers going different ways.
One thing that causes is this separation of the training.
It makes the training and the technician...
Like almost two paths?
Yeah, well, multiple paths.
So the technicians, for us, we feel like if we can get going in the same direction, the
gap for those technicians is going to be smaller.
Because if you're doing transcritical with CO2, I'm sorry, if you're doing liquid overfeed
and glycol and DX and top cycles and things, so you have to know all those things.
All the different components.
Got to know all the different components.
Transcritical CO2 is relatively simple.
It's traditional refrigeration at a higher pressure.
So we like to teach it that way that it's a shorter putt for a technician that's already
proficient at parallel refrigeration.
Right, exactly.
So they have a base understanding of the refrigeration principles.
So what are we doing for training?
I know we see a lot of online training for CO2.
We've actually been working on some content for CO2.
But I'm a hands-on kind of guy.
So what opportunities are out there for educators to be able to work on some of this hands-on
stuff before it actually gets into the classrooms?
Yes.
We at Kaiser One, we have two different facility trainings.
One in Edwin Dale, California in Anaheim and another one in Columbus, Georgia.
And on those two facilities, we have full equipment in operation.
We have a CO2 transcritical system with multiple display cases connected.
And we have also the new technologies that we are pushing into the industry to create
efficient high efficiency systems.
So those two facilities will have those technologies implemented that people will see, touch them
and understand how they do work.
And how long are the training classes themselves?
The training classes, if we go on site, that will be at least one full day.
They will get the theory of how the system works, the different technologies.
Also they do get information about the installation of the system because that's another important
part for technicians.
Yes, absolutely.
To understand what are the safety measures that they need to take.
And also, as Dale was saying, this system is very similar to the HFC so they can understand
the differences and get more comfortable with that.
We really push hard on the safety of the CO2.
Because everybody's scared of that and we want to get that word out there that done
correctly with the proper safeties and installed correctly, it's stable, it's safe.
For the technician at least.
Yes, a lot of people get intimidated because of the pressures the system operates at.
That's the thing I hear the most.
Yes, exactly.
So we try to put the word there, what are the safeties that we consider and how the
systems are designed to overcome that issue, the pressures.
It's not an issue anymore.
It's just handling the system properly.
Absolutely.
When we think about moving forward with our refrigerants, we're going to have safety
concerns with any refrigerant that we work with.
We are seeing A2Ls that are a mildly flammable refrigerant.
We have our A3s that are highly flammable refrigerants.
So safety is going to be one of the most important things going forward with training.
And so understanding how those systems operate and how to safely work on those.
Another question that I get out in the industry is, well, these are just large tonnage systems,
aren't they?
And then just for the big stuff?
Well, in the majority, yes, but there are some systems coming in like small condensing
units.
Yes.
We do have developed small condensing units for smaller applications like 5 tons, 6 tons.
Really?
Yes.
Wow.
Okay.
Yes.
Go ahead.
Yes, because we know in order to have that implementation in the industry for remodeling
or expansion, they cannot close down the full store to make the full retrofit.
So they need a way to make the change.
Yeah, have a bridge.
So if you're in a transition from HFC to CO2 and you have to do something in between,
but you're not ready to make the full transition, then you can do this small system.
Like in California, if you have a traditional store already with the regulations there and
it's HFC, you can't add horsepower.
Now you could take one of these small units, add it as CO2 is natural.
It's a complementary system.
Yes.
So you can eventually remodel the store and everything's totally converted over CO2.
You can either keep that unit or you can take it off, put it on the right.
Okay.
And that is a big concern going forward is that we don't have unified legislation on
our refrigerants.
You would think that we would as a nation go, okay, this is where we are going.
And we're all doing it at the same time.
But we know that a lot of our states have more stringent regulations than what we may
set at national standards.
Do you see any states in particular that are going with CO2 faster than others?
California and New York.
Yes, California and New York.
California actually, they implemented their regulations in 2022.
So from 2022 to now, any new systems with more than 50 pounds have to have refrigerants
with less than 150 GWP number.
There's not a lot of them.
Not a lot of them.
New York is going that way and actually they are pushing even harder than that.
They are going to go 10 GWP number.
10.
So that's even more difficult to do that.
Wow, that really is limiting your options.
Yeah.
But also we also know that the EPA, they have a final rule.
Yes.
Trying to do the transition as well.
Yes.
So 2026 and 2027 will be coming across the country.
Yeah.
So we'll see the push of those natural refrigerants more and more.
Yeah, we've had a lot of conversations on our show talking about the technology transition
rule and people look at that as going, okay, this is what we have to prepare for and we
go, no, no.
You have to be aware of the technology transition rule, but you have to be aware of what states
are doing that are even more stringent than that.
That's right.
And so if I'm an educator and I'm looking at what the future of refrigeration is, I absolutely
need to be implementing CO2 into my curriculums now or at least being able to go out and go
to the training facilities at Kaiser Warren and learn how to work on these pieces of equipment
to be able to start implementing that into the classroom.
That's right.
That's something that we talk about a lot in our sessions and on-site sessions and our
tables at the shows and things like that.
If you're not already planning that, you're not already working towards that, you're behind.
So it's coming down like a freight train.
We're not stopping it.
We have to get the...
For me as a technician by trade, I feel like we owe it to the trade not to let them sneak
up on them and catch them by surprise because it's going to be ugly if there's not enough
people out there to work on it and install them and build them.
We don't think there's enough manufacturing space for what's coming.
Yeah.
Yes.
And one of the benefits, as he's saying, is the good part of CO2 trans-critical systems
is that they are the same concept.
Right.
As a conventional...
Still refrigeration.
Yes, still.
Yes, exactly.
So technicians, if they are proficient with HFCs, going to CO2, let's say they have at
least 80% already over.
Yes.
Absolutely.
20% is the difference between HFCs and CO2 systems.
When we look at CO2 systems in general, I know like in my state of Indiana, some of
my grocery stores were implementing CO2 systems almost a decade ago.
And so we're not talking about educating technicians for the future.
We're talking about educating technicians for systems that are already out there that
are now entering into their service age.
Right.
And we, I think as a generation, are very far behind.
Even myself, I'm fairly far behind on CO2, but I've been out of the industry for about
six years.
So even as an educator myself, I have a lot of brushing up to do.
So I know there's many educators out there that are needing these resources.
So what are some good ways to connect with Kaiser Warren?
I come to the conference, obviously, when we have almost 1200 educators here that are
wanting to connect, but we have a lot of educators that are going to be joining us.
We also have technicians that are in their van right now going, you know what?
I'd like to work on some of that bigger stuff, but I don't know where to begin.
So let's talk about some resources from Kaiser Warren that we can connect with.
Yes, definitely going to our website.
There is information for the CO2 systems in the website.
They can contact our marketing department and they can direct them to the people that
can work with them on the training sessions.
That will be the main way to do.
With our two competing hands-on facilities, one in Anaham and one in Columbus, Georgia,
we're also looking at tools to help us with that, putting online calendars.
All that will start showing up.
We're still in the infant stages of getting that part of technology set up so that we
can get the word out.
Right now, word of mouth, we can't even support the demand we have.
So when we put it out to the public, we have to be prepared for it.
It's going to be this mad push because there's a lot of people out there.
And today, everybody's looking for a business card.
Everybody's like, hey, can you help us out with material and stuff?
Can we come to your place and learn how to do that?
Absolutely, you can do that.
It's fun in that spot.
It's fun in that date when it works for everybody and getting them in there.
We, Nasir and I both have day jobs and we do the training.
This is what we love to do and we want to get the word out there.
But we're going to push as hard as we can for the years we got left in the business.
Isn't it fun though?
Yeah, it's great.
It's buying time for me.
I've been doing refrigeration for 42 years and I don't, you know, we've had more changes
in the last 10 years than they did the whole first 32.
I think this year, I think 2024 is going to be almost a pivotal point for our industry.
Yeah, I agree.
I think this is a year.
Time to put up a shut up.
It is.
We've had so many conversations here in these podcasts of we've went too many years as industry
competitors and not been industry partners.
And so now you're seeing industry competitors coming to the stage just like you are today
going in.
I mean, at the end of the day, we all have things, we're all salespeople of something.
Absolutely.
You got to get paid.
But the important part is everyone is saying, but together we're going to push an industry
further.
And the light bulbs are just they're glowing so bright.
It's just it's a beautiful time to be in this industry.
100%.
And I've never seen the collaboration in all the years with these events like NASRC or
100 Arms at Spurk last week, we got Erwindale coming up in three or four weeks.
We'll be out there again.
And those are free events for technicians, by the way.
So technicians, if they hook up with those folks, they can go there and they get similar
to what you get here for trainers.
They're getting technical training and we go into a lot more in depth stuff there.
For the technicians for install service and being specific about TCO2 equipment.
Yes.
And in those kind of sessions, you can have a little bit of everything.
We have OEMs going to do the trainings.
We have compressor manufacturers, controls manufacturers, component manufacturers.
Everybody's doing the training.
Joining in.
Yes.
Joining in and providing information to the technicians so that they know a little bit
of everything on those kind of sensors.
And as they say, it's free training.
It's free training.
They just need to stay agnostic.
We're not there trying to sell technicians.
They don't buy equipment for the most part.
And we're trying to help.
We're trying to get the industry and get the word out there and get it built up so that
there's more people available to do the work we need done.
We need good installers.
We need good service people as a manufacturer.
If you don't have that, then it causes you a lot more issues.
Warranty returns.
Everything.
Failed component.
Happy customers.
Yeah, for sure.
You want that.
Absolutely.
Yes.
You want that but also we need technicians that they are able to install the systems
for the end users to buy the systems and start doing the transition.
They're like, none of my contractors want to do this.
Think about that.
If I'm an educator and one of my most important numbers is my placement.
Where am I placing my technicians and what type of salary are they making when they leave
this program?
We're not talking about entry-level jobs.
When we get into our refrigeration, we're talking about high demand, high paying careers
that are incredibly stable, that are not going away.
They're only growing.
It's only growing.
If I'm looking to implement CO2 training into my program, here's a great place to start.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
You were talking about regulations before.
We know that EPA, they put the regulation out for 2027.
Yeah.
So starting 2027, they will see more and more of the systems that we are seeing right now.
Absolutely.
It's going to multiply at a much faster rate.
I believe that.
I like to follow what's happening internationally and see the different product changes that
are happening.
A lot of people don't even realize, we've got CO2 in automotive air conditioning systems
right now.
Yes.
And people go, what?
Wait a minute.
In vehicles and small tonnage systems?
Yeah, absolutely.
CO2 is a very, very useful, very environmentally friendly refrigerant.
As we make this HFC slide, I call it a slide, we're at right now a 40% reduced consumption
or production of HFCs based on GWP, which means all of our HFCs are going to see a significant
increase in price and a lack of availability.
We've already seen transitions in our distributors that are making agreements and arrangements
with their contractors that if you're not reclaiming and bringing back refrigerant,
we're not even selling you because we're not going to have access to it.
And let's think about the, just for a minute, let's talk about the access of CO2 as a refrigerant.
There's really not a life expectancy of CO2 because it doesn't qualify on any of that.
We call it future proof.
So if you put in CO2, there's very low probability unless some magical thing comes out of the
blue that's not there yet.
Yeah, none of our chemical manufacturers.
You can use it forever.
Exactly.
All of our systems never going to be obsolete again.
Exactly.
You're always going to have access to refrigerant.
That's right.
I mean, we look at like...
And they can make as much CO2 as we want and you can vent it.
There's no law.
What about the change of regulations if we would do something natural?
In some ways it's easier to service because they're not confined in there with laws where
they're worried about getting in trouble for accidentally venturing.
Because there's no...
Great requirements.
There's no commercially available...
That needs to be ironed out.
That's a whole other...
There's no requirement for when you service a piece of equipment that you have to reclaim
it.
There's no commercially available reclaimer for CO2.
Yeah.
Wow.
That does make you think a little bit differently about that because we're going to see, like
even with when we talk about what we call in a residential or new refrigerants, they're
really not new refrigerants.
They're just HFCs, right?
And HFC blends.
We've got a shelf life of no more than 12 years.
That's the reality.
When we look at the HFC phase down and realize that both R32 and 454B are in that shelf life
of the HFC phase down, they're going to become scarce just like the others as we continue
the HFC phase down.
And the reintroduction of natural refrigerants into every aspect of HVAC and refrigeration,
I think will be here faster than people realize.
Oh yeah.
I agree.
It's coming like a steamroller.
Yes it is.
Well, I'm glad we have this conversation.
It really brings some light into where we're going because I feel it and now that we see
it from our manufacturers and know that our manufacturers are amping up the educational
opportunity and educational outreach, that's a big statement.
That's the right thing to do.
It is.
All right.
Anything else you guys like to cover while we're here?
Appreciate you having us.
Yeah, this is so cool.
So the website is once again?
www.casagrande.com
Okay.
Thanks guys.
Have a great day.
Enjoy the rest of the spring.