Soften your senses.
Ways to become a better speaker, listener and follower.
This episode recorded as part of episode 76 of Did You Know?
The ESCO HVAC Show.
Howard Weiss, how are you, sir?
I'm good.
I'm not that scary, am I?
I'm ready for the future.
Oh yeah, look at that.
Love it.
I love the A's.
Future refrigerants are here.
We need to be ready.
And Greg, I'm so glad you pointed that out.
This really is a great class.
It's not an extremely big challenge to introduce into it.
Something that we have to introduce into our educational program because it's upon us and
it's very important that we train our technicians.
Little things that Howard, I would like for you and I to discuss.
So we spent time with Jason talking about why.
We spent time talking to Renee about how.
But let's talk a little bit about the importance and the significance of why we think it's
a little bit different at Esco, the importance of the design that we have in our programs.
Well, first of all, I'll back up to something that you asked Jason.
You asked Jason, when did all this start?
Yes.
And something that's interesting is something called the Coalition of Like-Minded Organizations.
Back in 2016, Esco started working with leading manufacturers of refrigerants and associations,
manufacturers, understanding that all this was underway.
Yes.
And let me just share something.
I get probably the number one thing we get called on.
Why is this all happening right away?
Right.
And I remind people, I go, we actually brought this to your attention at our conference in
March of 2010.
14 years ago.
So that, you know, we talk about the Safe Refrigerant Transition Task Force.
Yes.
Esco has been involved in committees for the last 14 years, trying to make certain that
whatever happens, we can easily break it down, make it attainable, give you information to
help you educate your students.
So let me just give you a quick idea.
We get an email.
Here's a proposed rule from the EPA or final rule that's coming out.
Yep.
And it could be several hundred pages.
Is that what you get from us?
No.
You usually get a one or two page summary.
You get the condensed version.
What you need to know.
Yeah.
So a lot of notes.
Right.
So a lot of what we're trying to do, we're trying to make it easy for you to do your
job by taking the time to read the...
Reading the government regulations is like reading a simplified version of the IRS tax
code.
It just doesn't exist.
Okay.
So a lot of what we're trying to do is break this down, understand their meaning, and then
tell you exactly what you need to know so you can be more productive in your job.
A lot of people aren't aware that part of that final rule that you were talking about
is the EPA's directive to potentially require new training requirements for A2L refrigerants.
And it doesn't really fall under section 608 of the Clean Air Act because it actually comes
out of the AIM Act and is a very different item.
And so the reason that we have this is having you prepared for what that is.
Now it's unknown exactly what that is going to look like, but if we look at training in
general, we do know that there...
Howard I could go to a class and I could sit through a class and when I'm done, somebody
could say, you went to that class.
Thank you.
Or I could go to a class and maybe I can have a requirement.
Maybe I have to be in this class for an X amount of time and I have to be there a whole
time and I can't be on my phone.
But there's another thing which is really what ESCO has always been focused on and it
was like that moth for me.
All right.
So you were the moth and ESCO was the light.
When I was a trainer and I was looking for a complete package to be able to test not
only my retention of information, but my students' retention of information.
And you really pointed this out to me today and it makes so much sense of why we're different
and why we push the bar so high here at ESCO.
Could you explain a little bit?
Sure.
And unfortunately, I'm not like Bill Clinton where I could take a five part question and
go five, three, two, one.
But I'll try and cover everything you want.
So when you brought up the American Innovation and Manufacturing Act, the AIM Act, specifically
subsection H of the AIM Act, gave the EPA the authority to regulate the phase down
of HFCs and manage their substitutes.
Most people know that.
What they don't know is it also empowered the EPA to establish technician training and
certification requirements for the handling of ASHRAE 2, 2L, and three refrigerants.
This process is currently in process and the final decision is uncertain.
But it's evident from the fact that they're going through all the procedures right now,
they're exploring their options.
So to just start phase one, phase one, the EPA put out a comment period to ask for industry
input as to what this would look like.
That comment period, I don't remember exactly when it closed, it was somewhere around, it
was in December.
Yeah.
Okay.
Then they're going to take their time anywhere from 90 days to a year, we're going to have
a proposed rule.
There will be the opportunity for the industry to give a little feedback on it.
And then we get a final rule.
Now not knowing what the rule will be, I know where you were going.
Our conversation earlier is why should someone take a close book exam?
Absolutely.
So here's the problem.
We have for the automotive exam, EPA section 609, it's an open book test.
Sure.
It really fails to assess someone's retained knowledge.
Right.
Did I learn anything or am I just good at taking a test or can I open the pages and
find what I need to know to be able to satisfy somebody's expectation?
Right.
And just keep in mind, retain knowledge.
Because on what you just said, I bet I could pass the bar exam on an open book test.
I would write books and if I knew where to open the books, absolutely.
Well you definitely don't want me defending you.
Right.
So secondly, if the EPA does come out, they've talked about the idea of cloning or mimicking
the EPA section 608 program.
Why not?
There would be a multi-part test, close book, the idea that this training may require the
same elements, a card, all the same tools.
What they do then.
Right.
So are they going to grandfather someone who just sat in a class and got a certificate
of attendance or someone who got a certificate of completion or someone who actually took
a close book exam?
The answer is probably the last.
Exactly.
We don't know that.
But the last thing, taking a close book exam is the only way you could truly reduce liability.
So what we were chatting about.
Yeah.
What we were chatting about earlier and just for everyone else, we have to distinguish
between someone getting a certificate of attendance, a certificate of completion, or an industry
certification.
They're not the same thing.
Okay.
It all drives to the difference between knowing about something and validating one's retained
knowledge of the subject.
Mere awareness of the existence of standards does not equate to a deep comprehension and
a commitment to these standards.
So I'd like to share a story that I think everyone will appreciate.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's what I'm looking for.
I have a good friend who was a teacher who had a former student who had passed away,
died using an aluminum ladder near a power line.
Okay.
It appeared that the court was going to favor the plaintiff until the instructor was called
to give their deposition.
They asked questions of the school, the state, and the teacher.
How did you know the student?
It was in your class when you covered the material.
Did you take attendance?
How do you know they fully understood the material?
There was a plethora of questions.
Well, it appeared the plaintiff would win.
The case was ultimately dismissed on one single reason.
Documentation, the student understood the established safety standards from the exam
they took.
So-
That's a liability interest, significant liability interest there.
And that's the thing, Clifton, whether you're dealing with students, customers, or employees,
should one of them be injured on the job?
Do you have the documentation to validate they had to retain knowledge to adequately
perform said task?
So we all, if you're a teacher in a school, hey, here's your safety glasses, here's your
gloves.
We go through everything.
But do we give them some kind of safety exam to document?
Validate it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Did they?
You know, and I've had our distributors, and if you're a distributor trainer out there,
that's where I was before I joined the ESCO team.
If you're a distributor, it brings up an entirely different perspective that is very important
to be aware of.
If you remember back when R410A came out, what was everyone afraid of with R410A, Howard?
High pressure.
Pressures, right?
So what did we do?
So we never had a nationally required R410A certification, but a lot of our distributors
required an R410A training with a certification to validate that you were able to work with
this new equipment before they would sell you that equipment.
And we've already began to see this with many distributors here in the country that are
requiring their contractors to go through a training class, not just go through a training
class, but take our certification, take our test to validate that they retain that knowledge.
Now the distributor actually has their version of that insurance policy in their hand showing,
hey, my contractor went through this class, they retained the knowledge.
If they made the choice later to do something incorrectly, I taught them how to do it correctly.
They chose to do differently.
And that's a big factor.
So even as a school, we have to look at that as a contractor, as a distributor, we all
have the opportunity to look at it as I'm providing training and making sure that my
student is retaining the information that I delivered.
So about 20 years ago, there was a frivolous lawsuit that everyone thought was frivolous.
Okay.
Lee Bick versus McDonald's.
Lady spilled coffee in her own lap.
Yeah.
You got about $2.8 million out of McDonald's.
Why?
Because restaurants, it's specified the temperature in which coffee is to be served.
And apparently McDonald's from reading the case was serving coffee at roughly 40 degrees
higher than the standards.
Okay.
Knowing standards exist and adhering to standards are two different things.
Yeah.
Clifton, you worked at a very large distributor.
So let's just take this.
If you had a bunch of customers, you trained in 410A, A2Ls, et cetera, and someone got
injured, even if you did all the training and covered everything, do you have the documentation
to demonstrate to authorities that you covered all those standards set forth by groups like
ASHRAE, UL, NFPA, SRTTF?
Do you have any documentation to show that not only they attended what you covered, but
that they understood it to fend yourself?
And well, I'm not trying to scare people.
I'm just saying we live in a crazy world.
Yeah.
If you're teaching safety, forget A2Ls for a second.
You're a teacher.
Any type of safety you teach, you should document.
You should have people take a test.
Once again, there's a major difference between a certificate of attendance, course completion
certificate, and a closed book exam.
In my world, I want to just, maybe I'm showing my age.
As President Reagan used to say, we should trust people, but we should also verify.
Man, isn't that a big statement.
So, you want to reduce warranties, or excuse me, liability.
Make certain that you're giving people a test.
Okay.
Big, big point.
A lot of people out there are probably rethinking right now going, wow, that does change the
way that I look at my training.
Because with A2L, we're not really focusing on global warming potential or ozone depleting
potential like we did with our EPA 608.
We're now actually talking about safety, which is the reason we implemented this in the AIM
Act is because we're not talking about the environmental side.
We're talking about the safe handling for the technician and the consumer.
So there's a lot of information that needs to be validated, retained, and tested to make
sure that we're retained.
Now let's talk about some additional resources while we have the opportunity.
So we've spent a lot of time talking about introducing the A2L training program into
your classroom, which we're highly encouraging all of our proctors to start introducing A2L
training into your classroom.
But there's also a lot of continual facts.
Jason and I talked about some of our previous shows where we take deep dives into these.
We have a bunch of resources.
Let's talk a little bit about our A2L fact check, the blog that is designed just for
facts about this transition.
Our customer service team and members of our team get calls and emails nonstop every day.
Jason had, when I talked to him this morning, 15 emails on A2Ls.
You and I were both discussing this morning all the comments on social media we're finding.
Yes.
And a lot of what we're finding on social media is inaccurate.
There's no nice way to say it.
Okay.
What we did with A2L fact check, we are taking frequently asked questions and we're putting
out answers.
So, no, we don't want everyone just emailing us.
We hope you take the time, go through the course.
But if you have a legitimate question you don't know the answer to, let us know.
We have a series of videos, short articles, posts.
The whole purpose of this entire series is to help you have the tools, whether you're
trying to train yourself, students, customers, or employees.
One of my favorite videos in here is the one you mentioned earlier where you did the flame
test on four classifications of refrigerants.
I think it's about 15 minutes long.
It's a fairly short one.
And what people will realize if you show that in your class, that's showing you that under
the right circumstances all refrigerants are flammable.
Then at the same token, I think that you're probably one of the biggest questions I get
emails for every day.
Misinformation.
These things are flammable.
They're explosive.
We're going to die.
That type of stuff.
This scare stuff.
And I go, our 410A is made of what?
125 and 32.
So if you take away the 125, you have our 32.
So one of the new refrigerants you've been working with a form of for many years.
Seconds.
Absolutely.
And what's our 454B?
Yeah.
It's that blend of 32 and 1234YF.
Right.
So, you know, everyone's afraid of this stuff because they heard something on social media.
So what these resources are, they're really meant to help you separate back from fiction.
Okay.
This is a good time for us to bust some myths.
Are you ready?
Sure.
So this one's for you, Howard.
This is an important one because all of our instructors out here right now are, have probably
been thinking about this.
Hopefully they're getting more informed about it.
But I got a good one for you.
Thank you, Tommy Brown.
And he just did that a couple hours ago on the fly for me.
He's so amazing.
I love working with him.
And he did that because that's probably one of the biggest posts that we see.
Yeah.
And first of all, going back to the AIM Act, which gave the EPA the authority under subsection
H to regulate training and certification.
The AIM Act is not the same thing as the Montreal Protocol.
Exactly.
Okay.
And so first of all, there's separate regulations.
So does your EPA card cover it?
No.
What will the AIM Act require?
We don't know yet.
What we do know is based on what the EPA is trying to set up, there will be some form
of required training, certification, or both.
And when we do know the facts, we're going to share those with everybody.
Exactly.
And it's important to note, so there's the link for over to the atlfactcheck.blogspot
to be able to see where that is.
And it's important for people to know that the EPA as well as the DOE are going to be
hanging out with us at the National HVACR Education Conference.
So we encourage you to come join us.
We're hoping that they'll have more information.
They may or may not.
Remember, we're talking about a government agency that is bound by certain avenues of
information, and some they can't disclose until they actually get to that moment in
time.
But they will be there.
They may be able to answer some questions for us.
But we have this continual interest, this continual conversation with the EPA.
And we promise to you, as we build this community, this entire HVAC and building sciences community,
that we will be here to update you when things change as quick as they change.
Like Howard, I think I mentioned before, and Jason talks about it.
Howard and Jason are on the Federal Registry every day looking to see when the changes
are.
And if they come from us, it's because it probably happened that morning.
And that's why we want you to continue to join us and just participate and stay ahead
of the bar and not get behind.
What do you think?
At the conference, you're going to have the EPA, Honeywell, Chemours, Hudson Technologies,
ESCO.
You've got all the leading organizations in refrigerants and refrigerant regulations
in a singular place.
You've got our weekly show, our podcast, H2L fact check.
A lot of people will say, oh, you're just trying to sell certification.
No, we're a standards organization that is trying to move the industry forward.
And if you're not staying up to date with all of our communications, hop on board.
Grab that QR.
It'll grab your information.
It'll let us know what your piece of the industry, are you a distributor, a manufacturer, a contractor?
And that way, as we have pertinent information that is specific for your sector of the industry,
we'll get notifications to you.
And so we try to keep it very segmented so that we're not sending everybody the same
thing all the time.
But if it's important for your portion of the industry, we're going to have you covered.
And I'd like to say two last things.
If you're on LinkedIn, we have a group called HVAC Educators, which if you're a teacher,
I don't care if you teach at a school, supply house, manufacturer, join it.
It's a great way to be connected.
And here's the real quick thing.
Steps to training and certification.
If you have students, customers, employees, have them go through the online course.
The online course really covers everything you need to know.
Have them come on in, go through the PowerPoint with speaker notes.
It's going to review what they've already learned.
And then lastly, have them take the test.
If you're just a technician out there watching our show, you're important too.
But the same resources are available to you.
Take the online course and call us and we'll give you a location to take the test.
Love it.
All right, Mr. Tebbe, thank you so much.
It has been a fantastic triple header.
I'm honored.
This is great to have so many different perspectives of the same topic.
And we'd love having you all with us.
Is there any last questions that anybody has before we get out of here?
I told you we try to keep it around an hour and that's pretty close.
Went over a little bit, but.
Well, we just need to make certain, are you ready?
Are you ready?
That's all it comes down to.
All right.
Well, I think we're going to wrap it up for the day.
We appreciate everybody joining us so much.
And next week, we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about 608 resources.
So if you're new to training, you're not an ESCO proctor, you're not familiar with the
resources.
We introduced you to the low GWP.
Next week, we'll talk about 608 and where all those resources are and the things that
have changed in the last few years and the last couple of decades to be able to stay
up to date with all that.
So Howard, thank you once again.
Thank you.
We'll see you all next week on Did You Know?
The ESCO H-Fact Show.