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Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.

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This episode recorded live at the 2024 AHR Expo.

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To learn more about each of these topics, join us at the National HVACR Education Conference

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in Las Vegas at the end of March.

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All right, everyone.

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Thank you so much for joining us at the 2024 AHR Expo.

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We're spending a lot of time talking about these new technologies.

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We've all had an opportunity to explore the floors, see things that are happening in the

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industry.

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And I think one thing we can all agree on is that we are all moving into heat pump technologies,

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right?

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A lot of cold climate heat pumps, we're seeing a lot of heat pump water heaters.

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I'm even seeing R290 air to water source monoblock heat pumps out here on the floor.

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I've been talking about these for a long time.

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People go, yeah, you're crazy.

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We're never going to get those here in the U.S.

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But we're all going to see challenges adopting and adapting to cold climate heat pumps and

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just heat pumps in general, inverter heat pumps specifically.

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So my name's Clifton Beck.

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I'm the host of Did You Know?

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The ESCO HVAC Show.

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And we have three completely different perspectives from our industry that I am just so anxious

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to share with you.

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So let's introduce each other.

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David, you like to start off?

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Yeah, so my name is David Rames.

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I'm the Senior Product Manager for Mydea.

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So we're in charge of innovation, right?

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What's coming, not what's in the past, not what's now, but what's coming.

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So we've got to keep our finger on the pulse of where we're going.

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And Clifton's right.

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Cold climate heat pump technology is the future.

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So that's what we've got to work on.

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Okay.

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Christopher?

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Yeah, I'm Christopher Dymond.

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I'm a Senior Product Manager at the Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.

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And my job is sort of a blend of emerging tech.

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What is the next thing that has incremental energy savings and product differentiation?

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And to understand what are the barriers to whatever that technology is, and what can

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a organization like NIA do to remove these barriers?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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My name's Alex Reese.

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I am the Residential HVAC and Water Heating Lead in the Building Technologies Office at

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the Department of Energy.

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So obviously we have a very broad scope working on a lot of things, but a lot of our mission

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is to try and fully decarbonize the US building stock by 2050, which obviously involves cold

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climate heat pumps and mass deployment of them.

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So a lot of work to do.

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That's a lot of effort there, right?

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And so we're all here together to talk about these difficult situations.

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So when we look at the adoption of cold climate heat pumps and inverter heat pump technology,

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what do you feel that the industry is struggling so much?

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I see it myself from the technical perspective.

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So for me, I work with a lot of technicians that grew up working on one particular piece

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of equipment.

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I use this analogy in a couple of my other podcasts that when I was a young man, I worked

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on my vehicle and my vehicle had a carburetor and it had mechanical ignition system and

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I can adjust the timing using a timing light and mechanically adjusting the distributor.

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But it was all used in the management of an internal combustion engine.

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And I happened to be in that time period where we were moving into throttle body fuel injection

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and multi-port fuel injection.

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And so I was getting the chance to work on both of them, my old technology that operated

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on carburetors and my new technology that operated on throttle position sensors, exhaust

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gas recirculating temperatures.

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We looked at intake temperatures.

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We had a variety of inputs that manage our output.

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And the interesting thing about it was I didn't have to relearn the internal combustion engine.

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I relearned the new, more advanced ways to control that engine.

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So when we look at our emergence of inverter technology, I feel the same way.

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I feel like I grew up working on things that had capacitors and PSC motors and piston metering

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devices and maybe expansion valves.

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And then all of a sudden I introduced an entirely new logic where I'm using pressure transducers

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and temperature thermistors and I'm using algorithms to manage my outputs on an internal

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compression engine.

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That didn't really change a whole lot in its design, just in its control.

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So as a technician, I may not have been comfortable moving into this technology and it's a shame

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because I should have.

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I've seen that transition in automotive and now I get to look at it into the realm of

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inverter technology.

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So why do we see, let's think about some other perspectives of why we're having struggles

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adopting these new technologies.

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Maybe let's just start from the manufacturing side.

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What do you hear from contractors and from the manufacturing side of our industry?

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Yeah, well, education is key, right?

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I think so.

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I think that really is our topic.

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I say that education has to start from the manufacturing level.

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And so we understand the technology because we innovated that technology.

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You understand it.

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We understand it.

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And so everyone still says, my grandpa had a heat pump and it was 40 degrees outside,

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we all froze to death.

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No one knows that technology has changed.

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It's so much different.

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I've got a quick stat in front of me.

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We love numbers.

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Our PR company did a consumer research and they basically said, the question was how

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many know what a heat pump is?

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80% of people said, I know what a heat pump is.

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And then they said, how many of you know that there are heat pumps on the market that can

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give you 100% heating output at negative four degrees Fahrenheit?

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And that stat went from 80% to 4%.

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Four.

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That's pretty drastic.

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They don't understand the capability of them.

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They don't know what it can do.

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So it's up to us to teach them what it can do.

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Wow.

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That's a very significant stat.

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Because then we look at, well, now we're talking about the consumer side of things, right?

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It's not just that our technicians are struggling to move forward and they have some gaps that

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need to be filled.

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Even our homeowners don't know what can happen.

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But it also goes back into the contractor not being educated enough to be able to inform

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what we're really doing for that consumer.

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Man, that's a perspective.

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Why would a contractor want to take the risk of installing a technology and not having

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enough backup?

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So when they face with this challenge of, do I size for the coldest day of the year?

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That adds a whole nother complexity to their decision making processes and their risk.

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It's far easier just to size for the cooling and have it switch over to stripping or gas.

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Like we've always done in the past.

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Then it's just a fancy air conditioner that does some backwards working.

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With an oversized gas furnace as well.

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In many applications.

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That's what they do.

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So we definitely see from the manufacturing side, we're gathering data.

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We're understanding that our consumers have changed a lot.

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We also have to understand that we may need to rethink our decisions in sizing and selecting

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equipment in a new perspective.

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Let's talk about that a little bit, Christopher, because I'm sure that's a gap that you do

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a lot of analysis on.

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I've been looking for the Goldilocks zone and that's great.

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We had a project at Nia that I called Project Baby Bear because we were looking literally

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for what is that blend of variable speed but not too expensive.

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And where I live in the Pacific Northwest, it's a pretty mild climate.

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So I don't need super capacity at 5.

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I need good capacity at 17.

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Oh, yeah.

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But then I want to challenge you to say what happens if I've got a dual fuel situation?

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Do I need a cold climate?

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It depends entirely on what you mean by cold climate.

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You can be on the NEAP database, which lists all the cold climate spec machines out there.

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And some that are not got any capacity, particularly at cold.

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And so if you're designing a system and you know you're going to have backup fuel, when

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that heat pump is running during the mild hours, it's ramping slowly up, slowly up.

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As soon as it hits full power, what happens?

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It can't keep the house temperature up, so it switches over to gas.

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So at that moment, you're no longer running the heat pump at max capacity.

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So the whole Goldilocks kind of project revealed, if you're doing dual fuel or if you're in

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a mild climate like I'm after, the sweet spot, the Goldilocks zone is actually a heat pump

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that's super efficient at part load.

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So that's a really different thought process.

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That's a different dynamic than what we've been educated on and gotten comfortable with.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm not just saying size to the maximum.

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It's performance is at the minimum.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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What does that mean?

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Performance?

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Well, isn't performance comfort?

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I'm a performance guy.

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I want to get the kilowatt hours minimized.

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And knowing 99% of the time, it's going to be running on, you know, not full capacity.

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It's going to be somewhere in the middle.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And how does it perform?

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But if you're going to design to meet the 100% of the load to do the full decar but

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US DOE is doing, you got to have some pretty good equipment.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Yeah.

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And luckily in speaking of pretty good equipment, we have the cold climate heat pump challenge

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that DOE has been running for the last few years, trying to create these technologies

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that can get down to negative 15 to five, depending on which section of the challenge

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you're using and run at full capacity with really high COPs with the goal of allowing

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the possibility for full decarbonization.

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And depending on where you are, you may or not be there right now, but in the future,

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obviously, that's the goal.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I've seen a lot of equipment out here from our manufacturers that are seeking that challenge.

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And it's interesting what I have recognized in that.

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It's kind of like when we had fuel crisis that kind of drive the efficiency of the automotive

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industry.

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It created all products to start relooking at efficiency.

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So here I'm finding a lot of inverters that fit that bill in that medium performance range

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going, oh, you know what?

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I can make, because I have now grasped the ability to improve my technology in this coldest

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of applications, we've actually found ways to make our middle products more efficient

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and actually reduce some of the cost in those.

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So one of the things that I see, which is really, really interesting, is a shift in

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the types of equipment that we're manufacturing.

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Because I think I would assume in that research we're seeing, Christopher, that inverter drives

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the performance in all pieces of equipment.

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And so it challenges the equipment.

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Inverter and controls.

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But just because it's got great capacity when it's cold doesn't mean it knows how to modulate

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well and extract the most out of the mild hours.

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This is really not the fault really of anything more than we've set a target saying seasonal

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heating performance factor, HSPF.

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So the designers are thinking about how do I hit my price point, my target, all that,

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and I've got to get that HSPF.

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And then I'm raising my hand saying, hey, wait about the mild hours.

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They're not focusing on it.

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But I think over the next couple of years we'll see, I think kind of an interesting

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dynamic around if you're going cold, go all the way.

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If you're going mild, let's think about the right solution for that and defining that

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in a way that people can really, because those mild climate heat pumps, they're not going

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to cost as much.

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They're not going to have as big evaporators and condensers.

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The compressors aren't as big.

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They'll still be variable drive because you really, that's the key is it has to be a variable

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drive to extract that part load efficiency.

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Exactly.

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And I think what manufacturers are doing, especially in my idea is our products, we

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try to price our products where we can get into as many homes as possible.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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That's the goal.

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We all move boxes.

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Exactly.

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We don't want to have this product that only the upper 1% can afford.

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So let's try to get into as many and that's where we make a difference.

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That's where we can find that sweet spot or that's where in a super cold climate in Canada

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or Alaska, we can take care of business.

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But we've got to make it affordable for a lot of different consumers with a lot of different

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budgets.

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Indeed.

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There was a time where I looked at inverter, the ability to market and sell inverters as

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a very short percentage of my total product line.

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And it's becoming obvious that that role is really flipped in the industry where a majority

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of my product line is now going to be inverter driven equipment.

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I've seen some amazing mid tier efficiency inverters out here that many of our manufacturers

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are saying that's, that's what we would have called baseline a while back.

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Now this is the standard.

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So we're looking at these, you know, 15 to 17 sear pieces of equipment going well, now

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we have this as an entry line almost product and we can put that in that mid tier place

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and take over a lot of the, the strain on price, the strain on education, but it really

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comes back down to our, our professionals really have to be educated on what these differences

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are.

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00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,720
So let's take a look at that and think about ways that we can motivate from different perspectives

242
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,840
of the industry, ways that we can motivate our contractors to learn this before you go

243
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:30,840
there.

244
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:31,840
I got it.

245
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:32,840
I got to correct you on something.

246
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:33,840
You're using the term sear.

247
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:34,840
Oh, I got to break that.

248
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:35,840
I got it.

249
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:36,840
That's old habits.

250
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,120
See it's how can we modify educators to learn?

251
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,120
We're talking heat pump now.

252
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:41,120
We got to get into ages.

253
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,120
We got to talk about the heating season performance.

254
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,120
That is so true.

255
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,120
Cooling.

256
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,120
Yes.

257
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,720
We've been talking about heat pumps and when you say sear, yeah, people think of it's an

258
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:50,720
air conditioner.

259
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:51,720
I know.

260
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:52,720
I know.

261
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:53,720
That's why we're here to break bad habits.

262
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,160
You know, I was a technician that grew up in this carburetor area, this PSC compressor,

263
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,320
you know, piston driven, maybe have an expansion valve driven systems and went, all right,

264
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,800
these are decent pieces of equipment and this is how we do this.

265
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,080
That's how we've always done this, right?

266
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,680
Isn't this how we're supposed to do it the way we've always done it?

267
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:10,240
And no, we're not.

268
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,240
I'm going to catch you on it again.

269
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,640
I'm glad you do because I'm just as much at fault as everyone.

270
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,920
You know, we've always looked at things from the perspective that we had and thought that

271
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,040
that was the way to do it.

272
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,640
But now we're actually getting challenged to look at things from a new perspective.

273
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,880
And that's really the fundamental change that has to happen for contractors, I think.

274
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,480
And while we're breaking bad habits, we can start calling it HSPF2 and CR2 as well.

275
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:34,480
Exactly.

276
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:35,480
See?

277
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,480
Two shell.

278
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,800
Look at that one.

279
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,200
And so exactly.

280
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,120
So we have to understand what these differences are and look for those resources.

281
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,120
So let's think about ways that we can promote contractors to look for these resources from

282
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,240
different avenues within the industry.

283
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,480
So I think what we've been successful at so far, because again, we take the pressure of

284
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,680
this education as a manufacturer.

285
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:06,800
So as my technical training and product training group travels North America to train our distribution

286
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,280
partners, we've asked, bring your contractors in.

287
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,160
Because we can train you and we do a good job and you do a good job.

288
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,680
But if we've got an auditorium full of your contractors, you're going to hear it right

289
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:17,680
from the horse's mouth.

290
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:18,680
Exactly.

291
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,440
The guys who designed this and then they have the confidence and they go, boy, oh boy, now

292
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:23,440
I kind of see.

293
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:24,440
Exactly.

294
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:25,440
That makes a change.

295
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,440
And the perfect scenario for us is on the contractor side, they always go out, hey,

296
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,360
Mrs. Jones, here's a good, better, best application.

297
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,760
How do we get good, better and best to all be inverter driven?

298
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,440
That is a great challenge to look at.

299
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:40,440
Whose definition is it?

300
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,440
Good, better, best.

301
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,440
Oh yeah.

302
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,440
My idea is no.

303
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,360
The reality is that clear data is really the underlying thing is that having availability

304
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,800
and access to data.

305
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:51,800
Yes.

306
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:52,800
So that's what the NEEP database is.

307
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,760
Tell me more about this because I just was introduced to it by you and I am just ecstatic

308
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,360
about this NEEP database.

309
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,000
So NEEP is the kind of the equivalent of NIA, but they're in the Northeast.

310
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,000
Right.

311
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,600
So it's the Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnerships.

312
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,800
They started up a cold climate heat pump database.

313
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:09,800
Yes.

314
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,080
And it's really caught on because anything on that list has a COP of at least 1.75 at

315
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,080
five degrees.

316
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,480
So it has at least some reasonable capability of five degrees.

317
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:19,480
Right.

318
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,520
Maybe not full capacity, but it's on there.

319
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,320
But the cool thing about this database is it's got all kinds of other operational condition

320
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,960
data that is reported, self-reported by the manufacturers and includes it in a format

321
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,320
that people can look at and compare and evaluate.

322
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:37,480
Utilities are using this.

323
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:38,640
Forecasters are using this.

324
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,400
We're thinking about using this.

325
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:45,600
There's a really neat kind of tool within there to help you evaluate the right size

326
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,280
and application for that.

327
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,960
It's their advanced.

328
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,600
I guess it's a heating selection.

329
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,600
I would say so.

330
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:53,600
Yeah.

331
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,800
Take a look at that.

332
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,680
Just Google NEEP heat pump database or cold climate database.

333
00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,680
It's there.

334
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:00,680
Yeah.

335
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,760
And we've been using this database quite a bit for some of our projects as well.

336
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:03,760
It is a great resource.

337
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,200
In fact, right now we're in the process of creating something that we call the cold climate

338
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,080
heat pump selection tool.

339
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,320
It's not quite released, but it will be over the summer likely with a goal of walking a

340
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:20,480
contractor through how do you choose a system based on the characteristics of the house.

341
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,640
And in the end, we're creating an API right now to connect it to the NEEP database with

342
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,400
a goal of kind of saying, here are some actual options from the NEEP database that are going

343
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:30,640
to meet these criteria.

344
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,240
We recommend choosing one of these heat pumps.

345
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,240
Excellent.

346
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:39,680
When we talk about education, I feel that we have a huge opportunity within our industry,

347
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,440
whether we're a contractor, whether we're distributor, manufacturers, even we have generations

348
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,440
that are growing up.

349
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,000
I'm starting to feel a little bit older because now I'm seeing like three generations below

350
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,320
me and I'm going, okay, I've got a lot to talk about.

351
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,000
When we start talking about the generations below, like we'll think about generation Z

352
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,080
and generation alpha.

353
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,680
We talk about generations that have grown up with technology.

354
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:07,080
Do you see that as a very good tool for introducing inverter technology and controls into a contractor's

355
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,080
environment?

356
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,080
Because I particularly do.

357
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,880
I almost feel like we need a third role in a contracting business.

358
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,280
We typically have you either going to go to installation or you're going to go to service.

359
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:23,880
But now we have a generation of very technologically savvy individuals that want to embrace this

360
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,600
technology that could really be key in doing proper commissioning and understanding how

361
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,980
these systems are developing.

362
00:17:30,980 --> 00:17:34,120
So I'd love some input from other parts of the industry on that.

363
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:38,680
I just came about two hours ago from a panel where we spoke in front of about a hundred

364
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,440
kids from the Chicago school system who are going to go into trades.

365
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,160
And that's exactly what I said is the old fogies are leaving, right?

366
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,160
We're retiring out.

367
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,160
We're teaching and we got to learn.

368
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,800
And we need this younger generation because now these are basically computers.

369
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:53,800
Yeah, they sure are.

370
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,140
The technology.

371
00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:57,880
And you guys are into this stuff.

372
00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:58,880
Get in.

373
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,400
You know, you're more technologically savvy than the old fogies.

374
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,960
Get into this.

375
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,200
Improve the industry.

376
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,200
Make some money.

377
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:07,200
Create your value.

378
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,720
And you'll have a career for the rest of your life.

379
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,240
You'll never have to look for another job.

380
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,620
You also kind of hit on something, which is the expectations of this younger generation

381
00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:17,360
is to communicate with whatever they're working.

382
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:18,360
Absolutely.

383
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:19,360
Through their phones, through that kind of digital.

384
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:20,920
It's got to connect in some way.

385
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,160
So when we say beer can cold, that doesn't really mean anything.

386
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,240
When you say I need you to do a three dimensional interpolation of a database while you're in

387
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,840
the field and your knees are in the mud, that's not going to happen either.

388
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:34,840
Sure.

389
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,400
But you can do that on your phone and have it kind of guide you through it.

390
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,400
Yeah.

391
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,400
Connect in.

392
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:40,400
Have an idea how this thing is actually running.

393
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,720
That actually I think is sort of, I have been meeting with a lot of OEMs asking them about

394
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,760
where they are on this sort of pathway.

395
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:47,760
Yes.

396
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,760
And there are some that are further along than others.

397
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,520
They're all aware of this is an important next step.

398
00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:00,840
And speaking from the younger generation, I'm only 24 years old, so solidly in the Gen Z.

399
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:01,840
Yes.

400
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:08,480
I remember in school doing interpolations on PV diagrams and to calculate different

401
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,520
refrigerant charges.

402
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:11,520
And I mean, I hated it.

403
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:12,520
Right.

404
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:13,520
It was miserable.

405
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,600
And so I mean, DOE and I think the industry at large is like Chris Ferro was mentioning,

406
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,280
transitioning more towards online tools.

407
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,480
And we're really trying to promote that.

408
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,560
Trying to get more Bluetooth enabled tools that allow you to use a smartphone, does all

409
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,000
the calculations for you.

410
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,460
It improves the commissioning, improves all of the contractor values that they're putting

411
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:33,460
into the system.

412
00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:37,640
And it makes it better overall experience both for the contractor and for the resident.

413
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,320
I believe it's not installed correctly.

414
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:40,320
It's not commissioning.

415
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,320
It's never going to perform.

416
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,720
They're really not buying what was sold to them, right?

417
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:44,720
From an efficiency.

418
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:45,720
That's exactly right.

419
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:46,720
Yeah.

420
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:47,720
I agree.

421
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,720
So just sit the crossover at 45 degrees to the back up, Pete, and don't worry about it.

422
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,720
Right?

423
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,720
No, no, no, no, no.

424
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:53,720
Don't do that.

425
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,720
Don't do that.

426
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:55,720
No, that's what we've been taught though.

427
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,200
But those are the things that we have seen in the past because of misperceptions of performance

428
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,200
and comfort.

429
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,880
And so we have a lot to teach on how things can operate.

430
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:11,200
I think back about some of my friends when we went into electronically controlled engines,

431
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,400
it didn't take very long before we had young technicians that became tuners of vehicles

432
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,320
that actually took their knowledge and looked at a system, looked at a vehicle and went,

433
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,780
you know what, I can actually tune this thing to be able to perform in the way that works

434
00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:30,360
best for my area and my climate, my altitude.

435
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:35,840
And so I see that as such an opportunity within our industry to be able to take these students,

436
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,240
get them in the hands of the technology, absolutely teach the fundamentals of what we're working

437
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,600
on, but use that technology to look at a piece of equipment and go, you know what, maybe

438
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,520
I need to adjust airflow in this range.

439
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,320
And because I'm now using inverter technology and I'm using variable speed motors, I might

440
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,560
look at a bandwidth and go, you know what, I need more capacity in this spectrum and

441
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,520
I can actually fine tune my airflow, which is going to compensate on my capacity in a

442
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,520
particular range.

443
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,100
And we've never talked about that in the past.

444
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,640
And I think we should now going forward, knowing that we have these capabilities within the

445
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,640
equipment that's out there.

446
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,640
Yeah.

447
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,680
I mean, I mean, these kids were fired up that I spoke to.

448
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,740
I bet they were.

449
00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:16,620
And I think they came in with the, with the misperception that it's just dirty work.

450
00:21:16,620 --> 00:21:20,520
But when I talk, you know, my son went into the trades and he's making great money and

451
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,840
he's got this money and he says, and dad, I can fix my own stuff.

452
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:25,840
Isn't that a great feeling?

453
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,640
I can save money by fixing my own stuff and make money by doing this.

454
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:30,640
Yeah, that's a great feeling.

455
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,040
So they were pretty, pretty excited about it.

456
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:33,560
So I think the future looks pretty good.

457
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,860
Well, let's talk about some of this technology right now, because we have a lot going on

458
00:21:37,860 --> 00:21:38,860
in that era.

459
00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:39,860
We have a lot of research happening.

460
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:43,980
I know from the department of energy, energy, we've got the smart diagnostic tool promos

461
00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:47,640
that are going on where we're highly encouraging using smart diagnostic tools.

462
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,920
Let's look at data for a little bit.

463
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,840
And what are we doing in the OEM side when we're looking at service tools?

464
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,100
I'm starting to see a lot of equipment that has more diagnostic capabilities in it than

465
00:21:58,100 --> 00:21:59,720
we've ever encountered before.

466
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:00,720
Right.

467
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,880
And so within our heat pump, we've got what's called a doctor smart tool.

468
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,200
Oh, this doctor smart tool plugs into the heat pump itself and you can see everything

469
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,960
it's doing, how it's working, and you can fine tune.

470
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,960
If you need to test, you from outside can ramp the compressor all the way up, ramp the

471
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,680
compressor all the way down and see exactly what's going on.

472
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,040
So we talk electronics and diagnostics.

473
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,160
This doctor smart tool helps us and helps our contractors who are installing it really

474
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,800
dial it into where it needs to be.

475
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:26,800
Yeah.

476
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:27,800
I really like that idea.

477
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,760
I know we start seeing changes in other industries that goes along with diagnostics.

478
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,680
We've talked about changes that we're seeing in heat pump, water heaters, in general, just

479
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,080
water heaters would have connectability to it.

480
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:43,240
I hope that we see that going forward and Alexander, can you inform us a little bit

481
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,360
more about the DOE initiative on smart diagnostic tools and where we kind of stand in on that

482
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:48,360
scenario?

483
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:49,360
I do too.

484
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:50,360
Yeah.

485
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,280
So we have a campaign right now called the step campaign, which stands for, Oh boy, smart

486
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,360
getting stuck already.

487
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:01,360
Smart testing instrument, smart testing.

488
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,240
There's an energy efficient HVAC in there somewhere.

489
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,240
Yeah.

490
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,000
Pretty much, you know, the idea of using Bluetooth enabled tools that connect to your smartphone

491
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:15,000
to allow for, you know, more exact calculations of the various temperatures, pressures, charges

492
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,120
that you're trying to calculate.

493
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,080
Excuse me.

494
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:26,320
And so the goal here is both to work with the contractors to get these tools into their

495
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,360
hands, get them trained on the tools so they know how to use them appropriately.

496
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:34,540
And also try and demonstrate to them why this is actually better for their business model.

497
00:23:34,540 --> 00:23:39,480
You know, if you're using these tools and the equipment you're installing works better,

498
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,000
you get fewer callbacks, you're wasting less money going back to these sites, you're getting

499
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,680
better reviews from your customers because your technology is working great.

500
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,360
They're not having any refrigerant leakage down the line and not seeing the performance

501
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:55,000
that they were promised or expecting.

502
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,320
And you know, it's going to improve your business.

503
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,040
It's going to make your job easier.

504
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,360
And there's a little bit of an upfront cost in getting the tools and we're trying to work

505
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:03,720
on, you know, how can we, how can we lower that cost?

506
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,240
How can we get these into contractors' hands through a variety of different methods?

507
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,640
But all about getting those tools into people's hands and recognizing them for doing it.

508
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,120
Yeah, and the ability of them.

509
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:15,120
Yeah.

510
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:16,120
Okay.

511
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:17,120
Do you have something?

512
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,520
Yeah, I wanted to share a little bit of the utility perspective of what heat pumps are

513
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,680
going on, right?

514
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:28,240
So here's the core reality is that we're moving heating more and more into electric-based

515
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,120
heating with heat pumps.

516
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:37,120
So in a sense, in the next decade or two, that with, with heat pump water heaters, with

517
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,400
heat pump space conditioning, and with electric vehicles, we're going to be pushing twice

518
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,160
as many electrons through the same size wires.

519
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,720
And that's freaking the utilities out.

520
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,720
Yeah, I can see that.

521
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,540
Because if you think about adding another distribution line or another feeder, these

522
00:24:52,540 --> 00:24:57,520
things can take 10, 15 years to permit, install, get up and running.

523
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,720
We don't have that kind of time.

524
00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,720
Right.

525
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:06,600
So the data that the utilities are now asking for is we need some help being able to inform

526
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:14,400
the heat pumps when we are in crisis mode and when we would appreciate demand responses,

527
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,400
we used to call it.

528
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,920
But it's really more about load flexibility.

529
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,920
It used to be we think about demand responses only occurring in the peak hottest day of

530
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,000
the year or the whole coldest.

531
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,960
And I'm here to tell you guys, the highest prices are no longer occurring necessarily

532
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,960
at those moments.

533
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:30,960
It's happening.

534
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,960
That's interesting.

535
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,960
Oh, in the spring, the Northwest, we have dry rivers in the fall.

536
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:35,960
It's mild times.

537
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:36,960
Sure.

538
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,720
And all of a sudden the wind stops blowing and bam, producing as much supplementary.

539
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,360
So we're now looking for how do we work with the heat pumps.

540
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:46,480
Water heating.

541
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:47,720
That's going to be the first lead out.

542
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,240
That's really going to do it because that's a water heater is kind of like a giant battery.

543
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,240
Yeah, absolutely.

544
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,800
We got storage capacity of storage in a house in terms of the shell and all that is comparable.

545
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:04,480
You know, it's on the same order of magnitude, roughly half the size of a giant tank of water.

546
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,000
And so there's a lot of opportunity for the electric utilities to start sending price

547
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,520
signals into the market saying, if you've got a piece of equipment that works with us,

548
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,840
we can compensate the customer and you better be bringing products that have the ability

549
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,040
to work with us to the market or you're going to miss out.

550
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,040
Yeah, I can see that.

551
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,440
Getting that whole like, that momentum.

552
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,640
If you're out in the future, you say, I want to buy a heat pump that's smart enough to

553
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,840
help me select when to buy heat, when to buy electricity.

554
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,840
Absolutely.

555
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,280
That is a big deal in the next five years.

556
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,200
Incentives drive consumer behavior.

557
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,200
Absolutely it does.

558
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,200
And offsets.

559
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,160
If this equipment is more expensive, that rebates and things like that can help them

560
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,440
make that decision, buying decision.

561
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,140
But then long term, that payback comes back quickly.

562
00:26:51,140 --> 00:26:55,140
So the interesting thing about incentives is we were basing mostly incentives on energy

563
00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:57,760
saved to avoid a new power plan.

564
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,960
Now we're really more worried about energy saved to avoid that peak price during the

565
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:02,960
day.

566
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,560
So it's shifting the dynamic of when we need efficiency, we need efficiency and flexibility

567
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:09,560
at the same time.

568
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,740
And that's something, honestly, we haven't figured out on the utility side, we're still

569
00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:14,740
figuring that out.

570
00:27:14,740 --> 00:27:15,740
Sure.

571
00:27:15,740 --> 00:27:17,840
It's new for everyone to think about it, but it gives us the capability.

572
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,520
When we move into inverter technology, we can now do that.

573
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,520
If we think about our traditional single stage or two stage pieces of equipment, the only

574
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,480
thing we could do to reduce our capacity at a peak demand was turn it off.

575
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,080
And we actually did that for many sectors of the country.

576
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,080
We experimented with that.

577
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,460
Could we do that to manage energy at peak demand time?

578
00:27:36,460 --> 00:27:38,840
And so that was successful in many markets.

579
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,960
If we think now about, well, why don't we just reduce the capacity of that for a little

580
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,040
while?

581
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,760
Let's just change the capacity within the structure for a little bit and compensate

582
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,600
for that so that we can now modulate our electrical and balance out our load a lot.

583
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,920
I absolutely love the idea of that.

584
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,000
And it brought up a really interesting perspective.

585
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,200
Kind of came from this last answer that you had, David, is, well, what about our consumers?

586
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,120
So when we think about consumers, they're a lot of the driving force.

587
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:10,660
I mean, as a manufacturer, you're going to produce products that is in demand and is

588
00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:13,280
being expected due to regulations, right?

589
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,000
We all have to comply with what regulations are and expectations.

590
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,680
But without the consumer buy in, we may never have the demand.

591
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,880
Some of our contractors are coming back to us going, well, my consumer is not really

592
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,200
asking for this.

593
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,280
Therefore, I don't have to sell this.

594
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,520
I'm going to keep doing the same thing that I'm doing.

595
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,340
But I don't think that's very realistic in our industry.

596
00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:39,400
So do we see many consumer campaigns coming up in the future to help educate consumers

597
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,640
and contractors on the newer advanced technologies?

598
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,160
Yeah, well, there needs to be.

599
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,880
Again, I think the education responsibility is on the manufacturers.

600
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,280
And we can work with our partners, right, as a team and try to do this.

601
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:52,280
But you're right.

602
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,880
The homeowner writes the check to buy the equipment.

603
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:01,000
And do we know the features, the benefits, some of the payback, how it can benefit comfort

604
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,400
and efficiency in that fine mix of those two things, where they will spend a little extra

605
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:07,400
money?

606
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:08,400
Yeah.

607
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,840
And to do that and to get that rebate and education, if they know it's an easy decision,

608
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,520
but if they don't know, they're going to go back to the old single-stage compressor on

609
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,520
off.

610
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,240
And we know if it's off for a while and they turn it off, it takes a lot of power to do

611
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,240
that.

612
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,240
It's hard to catch up.

613
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,240
Yes, it absolutely does.

614
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,400
So do we see from the Department of Energy side, do we see a lot of initiatives to help

615
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,960
educate consumers and provide incentives for consumers to look at these new products, to

616
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,280
at least get that momentum up and running?

617
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,280
Yeah.

618
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,680
So I mean, if we're talking incentives, there's a lot of them.

619
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,280
The Inflation Reduction Act, obviously, I'm sure everyone's aware of past, what is that,

620
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:43,280
almost two years ago now.

621
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,280
It's been around.

622
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,120
And so there's a variety of incentives.

623
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,400
There's the 25C tax credits, which folks can claim on their taxes.

624
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,400
It gives you up to $2,000 off of a meatbump, I believe.

625
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,240
The rebates, which are, I think, the thing people are even more excited about, are coming

626
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,240
soon.

627
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,280
The timeline is still in progress.

628
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,000
Each state has to go through a pretty long process to get their whole...

629
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,000
Get qualified and established.

630
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,000
Exactly.

631
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,680
Get qualified and make all the rules and then get approved by DOE.

632
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,120
And some of the states are making their way.

633
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,880
So hopefully, you know, this year, we'll start to see some of those programs getting implemented

634
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:18,880
depending on where you live.

635
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:19,880
Sure.

636
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,440
But those can give you anywhere from $4,000 to $8,000 off your heat pump, which at that

637
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:24,680
point is...

638
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,080
Now we're talking some money to invest into that difference.

639
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,080
Exactly.

640
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,840
You're getting those cost competitive with other options.

641
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,120
And if it's also going to quarter your energy use, at that point, it's a no-brainer.

642
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,560
Long-term, it's a big investment.

643
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:37,560
Yeah, for sure.

644
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,080
What about from the utilities?

645
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,440
Do we see a whole lot of that from Christopher?

646
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,840
You know, utilities are going to be really interested in demand response, grid flexibility.

647
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,120
They're going to be very interested in energy savings, but they always have to show that

648
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,400
this is cost effective.

649
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,400
Right.

650
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,600
So that puts a really unique barrier on the incremental cost compared to the amount of

651
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,240
savings that occurs.

652
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,760
And that's a slippery slope for a utility to deal with.

653
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,840
So I'm not quite sure how that's unfolding.

654
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,720
I mean, in the Northwest, we're probably going to be pivoting towards a approach where we

655
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,720
just don't want to see electric resistance heat used.

656
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,440
That puts a lot of burden on the customer's contractor.

657
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,000
Make sure I've sized it right.

658
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,440
Consumer education is one of these things that's hard to associate with.

659
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,360
I was the one that got credit for educating the consumer, therefore I get to claim credit

660
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,760
for the value that that brought.

661
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,520
And so this is a weak spot, honestly.

662
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:36,520
Okay.

663
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:37,520
I can see that.

664
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:38,520
Yeah, for sure.

665
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:39,520
Hmm.

666
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:40,520
Okay.

667
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,520
I like that though.

668
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:42,520
I mean, it makes us think though.

669
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,520
I mean, if you look outside of the box a little bit and it gets us to form partnerships, for

670
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,960
people to look at things slightly different than they have been before.

671
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,400
So let's talk about some of these partnerships.

672
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,000
I mean, here we have manufacturers, we have trade associations and analytics, and we have

673
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,040
Department of Energy.

674
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:02,600
So we have a variety of aspects from the industry that are coming together to find solutions,

675
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,440
to look at all of our options.

676
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,120
So let's think about some ways that we can partner going forward, things that we can

677
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,480
do together.

678
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,200
Is there opportunities that we see to help bridge some of these gaps?

679
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,200
Yeah.

680
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,120
I mean, that's kind of my job is to find out what is the barrier to keep.

681
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,040
And like the cleanest, clearest barrier is price.

682
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,040
Yeah.

683
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Consumer price.

684
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,840
But I don't have any lever I can pull other than the incentives.

685
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:33,840
And that's really hard when I'm really faced with it's just a little incremental savings.

686
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:34,840
Sure.

687
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:35,840
Absolutely.

688
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,200
And I think it's a great thing and those around that works with me to like, okay, what are

689
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,680
the incremental benefits that I can find that don't cost much?

690
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,560
And this low load efficiency, this part load efficiency is one for certain applications,

691
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,520
dynamite, connected commissioning that we were talking about.

692
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,520
Absolutely.

693
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:53,520
Dynamite.

694
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,480
There are a bunch of little things that kind of stack up on each other and increase value

695
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,600
proposition.

696
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:04,840
So my job is to find them, prove them, build partnerships with industry and DOE and like,

697
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,480
so that that information can flow through to educators and the like.

698
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,480
Absolutely.

699
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,480
Yeah.

700
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,080
But I don't have the resources to do a big campaign or anything like that.

701
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,040
I am relying on others to actually get the message out.

702
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,040
Yeah.

703
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,040
That's kind of why we're here.

704
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,400
That's really why I struck that question because it makes us all step back for a minute and

705
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,720
go, what are my resources?

706
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,480
What are the ways that I can connect?

707
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,120
And that's what we're actually doing right here.

708
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,120
We're joining forces to talk to a community about what we can do to make changes.

709
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,800
And we build these partnerships because we all have questions.

710
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,640
Manufacturers have questions on how are we going to promote this to my contractors?

711
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,280
And there's going to be price increases and there's going to be difference in the design

712
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,280
of it.

713
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,120
Who's going to be on my side to help educate me on what I can pass on to my contractors?

714
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,440
What are the tools that they need?

715
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:50,440
What are the rebates?

716
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,920
What are the incentives that they have?

717
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,900
Does it change from state to state?

718
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:55,600
Because sometimes we're even seeing things like that.

719
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,560
Some states promote more than others.

720
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,200
So it's about these partnerships.

721
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,240
So we encourage everyone to start joining us.

722
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,040
I mean, that's why we're here at AHR.

723
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,920
We encourage everyone to come visit us at the National HVACR Education Conference where

724
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,700
we come here, take a look at these pieces of equipment.

725
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:11,840
We bring our manufacturers in to do technical training.

726
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,000
We bring our trades associations in to go, okay, here's some of your resources.

727
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,760
We bring departments of the United States to come in and go, well, here's what we see.

728
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,080
Here's the things that we're guiding and here's things that we are utilizing to help get you

729
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,600
resources.

730
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,080
So let's talk about these resources before we start wrapping things up.

731
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,520
Where would we go to at MyDIA to learn about all the things that we have in education and

732
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,040
opportunities at MyDIA?

733
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,880
I would go to mydiaevox.com.

734
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,560
That's E-V-O-X dot com.

735
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,920
It's got our products on there, a lot of exciting things.

736
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,560
And then an email contact if you've got additional questions.

737
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,200
So I mean, at MyDIA, what we believe in is practical, innovative solutions, right?

738
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,320
So it's not something crazy that someone can't afford, but we try to find that sweet spot

739
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,640
of what folks from every budget can afford, put in their house and get the efficiency

740
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,240
and the comfort that they're looking for.

741
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:01,240
Okay.

742
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:02,240
Sounds good.

743
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,480
That's a good one because I'm not actually doing that.

744
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,960
But the people I would probably turn to is the Consortium for Energy Efficiency.

745
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:08,960
Yes, absolutely.

746
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,440
They're the ones that are setting the specifications for what is a tax credit eligible.

747
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,400
So CEE.

748
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,480
USEPA's got a great set of resources out there.

749
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,240
And of course, your local utility is going to have their own flavor and twist on all

750
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:24,240
this.

751
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:25,240
Yes.

752
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:28,800
And it's, I think what likely will happen for a contractor is there will be a tax credit

753
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,360
threshold and then there'll be a little bit different nuance for that local utility's

754
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,360
needs.

755
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,600
Maybe they want demand response or grid flexibility more.

756
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,640
Maybe they're really after low load efficiency.

757
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:41,640
Sure.

758
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,040
You'll find out for your local utility really quickly what is top on their mind.

759
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:47,040
Those three.

760
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,640
Yeah, that's quite a bit.

761
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,640
Alexander?

762
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,680
Yeah, I mean, we just have so many resources.

763
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:52,680
I know.

764
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,160
That's why I left you for last.

765
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:55,160
We have a lot.

766
00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:01,000
If you're interested in building science education, we have our building science education solution

767
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,720
center, which has a variety of training resources that you can use to help educate contractors

768
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:06,520
on a variety of different topics.

769
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:12,120
If you're more of a builder and interested in looking at hardcore technical HVAC and

770
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,840
envelopes things, we have the building America solution center.

771
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,280
If you want to learn about our projects, you can head to the building technologies office

772
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,280
websites.

773
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,400
EPA, like Christopher mentioned, has a lot of great information.

774
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,040
They're launching a new consumer focusing focus campaign, which maybe helps actually

775
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,440
target consumers called energy savers.

776
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:30,440
Energy.

777
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:31,440
Yes.

778
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,440
H.U.

779
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,440
We have too many acronyms.

780
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,440
I can't actually rename.

781
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,680
We can talk about acronyms all day long.

782
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,160
Our industry loves acronyms.

783
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,880
But really, I mean, we have so many we can't like direct you to all the websites.

784
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,040
We're trying to get all of our websites optimized for search engines.

785
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,000
So all you're doing is just typing in what you want to Google and the resource that we've

786
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,240
spent money, your taxpayer dollars getting to you shows up so that you can find it and

787
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:56,240
use it.

788
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:57,240
OK.

789
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:58,240
All right.

790
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,080
Well, I thank you all for joining us at the twenty twenty four H.R. Expo.

791
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,620
And we look forward to Kenyon continuing these conversations with you.

792
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:06,880
You can find us at Esco group dot org.

793
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,920
And we hope that you join us every week on our live.

794
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:20,560
Did you know the Esco H. back show?