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Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.

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This episode recorded live at the 2024 AHR Expo.

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Learn more at Johnson Controls at johnsoncontrols.com.

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All right, everyone.

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Thank you so much for joining us today.

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We're hanging out at the 2024 AHR Expo and we're spending time with Johnson Controls

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talking about next generation heat pumps.

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So the big topic that we have in our industry besides the refrigerant transition, which

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is a whole other topic that we're actually talking about with Chris Forth over in the

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other podcast booth, is the changes that we're seeing in heat pump technologies.

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So going forward, we are making a transition in our industry.

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Always look at it as an evolution of our industry.

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When we look back, I like to compare it to the automotive industry.

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It's an easy example to show.

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Did you guys work on your own vehicles when you were growing up?

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So a lot of times we had carburetors, 1980s, 1990s.

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We'd have a carburetor, you'd have a mechanical timing system.

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You had the fundamentals of an internal combustion engine that hadn't changed in decades.

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And it was relatively easy to work on and we got comfortable working on those and we

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thought that that was the norm.

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And then as we decided that we needed to make a transition into higher efficient internal

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combustion engines, we started adding things like pressure sensors, temperature sensors.

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We started adding controls that would use those inputs to manage outputs.

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And so we made this transition from an entire industry of understanding the mechanical operation

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of a internal combustion engine to a solid state, higher efficiency, same internal combustion

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engine.

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We didn't completely redesign the engine.

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We made some modifications to lubrication.

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We changed some friction.

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We tried to make it more efficient, but the big thing was the change in the electronics.

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So we went from learning how to adjust mechanical controls on an engine to understanding how

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these digital controls manage that engine better.

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So when we look at heat pump technology, we're not completely reinventing.

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We're doing some modifications to our internal compression engine.

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We may change some lubrication.

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We may add some vapor injection or liquid injection, but we're still working with the

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fundamental same construction.

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But what are we doing like we did in the automotive?

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We're transitioning to digital inputs.

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We're working with pressure transducers, temperature thermistors.

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We're using a lot of inputs to do a better job of managing the output of that system.

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So let's look at the entire industry and let's look at how heat pumps are changing the way

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we look at the equipment that we have traditionally worked on in the past.

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Because there was some stigma from heat pumps when we look at all of our predecessors, just

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like we had stigmas with an old cast iron engine that ran on a carburetor.

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They weren't efficient, but they did work pretty well and they didn't have a lot of

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maintenance.

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But a lot of our modern vehicles have much more capability to understand what's going

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on inside and takes away some of those troubleshooting and diagnostics.

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So let's just pick on the technologies that have changed in the last decade, even maybe

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in the last couple of years, with heat pump technologies.

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So let's start introducing ourselves and then each one of us can take a shot at what you've

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seen individually.

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Perfect.

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Yeah, I can introduce myself first.

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My name is Matt Schlegel.

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I'm a commercial product manager.

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So I specifically work with our light commercial rooftop units.

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Our facility manufactures from three tons up to 80 tons with rooftop units and commercial

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splits from seven and a half to 50 tons.

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My focus specifically is our three to 12 and a half ton product line.

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I've been with John's Controls around 10 years.

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Brief hiatus away back at it.

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And so yeah, 10 years with John's Controls on the light commercial product side.

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We can maybe all introduce and then we can tackle the question.

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That's good.

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Thank you.

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I'm Rajesh Tixit with Johnson Controls.

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I'm director of global product management for applied heat pumps using synthetic refrigerants,

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but also responsible for the industrial refrigeration side of the business of Johnson Controls.

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So I manage our Frick, Sabro and York brands globally.

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So I'm really glad to be part of this podcast here to talk about the diversity of technologies

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when it comes to heat pumps, as well as the refrigerants that are deployed in heat pumps.

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Excellent.

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Yep.

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So my name is Piero Caballero.

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I am a product manager for Johnson Controls residential part of the business.

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So we are the small guys in terms of capacity.

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We do all the way from 10 and a half to five tons.

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So our factory in Wichita, we manufacture products like furnaces, air conditioners,

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heat pumps, obviously.

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We have residential package units.

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We have coils.

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So I specifically focus on heat pumps.

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So I've been brought to the team to kind of look at the next generation of heat pumps,

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you know, assess what's happening in the industry.

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And that way we can make a product that is as efficient as it can be on the heat pump

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side.

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Okay.

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Well, Piero, let's start from our residential and let's work up.

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A lot of people here are going to be familiar with the residential side of heat pumps, probably

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not as familiar with industrial, but we want them to be.

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And so we're going to show the entire residential commercial industrial aspect of where we're

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going.

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Perfect.

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Yeah.

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So I think on the residential side, we've definitely seen a trend.

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I think two big trends.

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One of them, variable speed to inverted driven.

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Yes, absolutely.

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Compressors are becoming, starting to become the norm.

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I think the, you know, the proliferation of inverted driven components is becoming just

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more and more out there.

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Obviously the efficiency levels are becoming more stringent.

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Government regulations are becoming more stringent.

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So that's driving some of that adoption of variable speed.

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The other big trend that we're seeing that's related to technology is going to be cold

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climate.

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Yes.

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I think there's a need for cold climate heat pumps just because as we transition to electrification,

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right, and kind of moving away slowly from fossil fuels, I think the need for having

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a heat pump that is efficient in colder climates is definitely essential.

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So we're starting seeing the trend here.

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You know, we're seeing that most of the industry is kind of adopting heat pumps that can operate

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all the way down to negative 25, negative 40 degrees.

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Is that amazing?

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That is kind of starting the trends.

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We're starting seeing those trends.

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Now one thing that I have noticed with some of the manufacturers is if we look at even

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say two years ago, we may have had a majority of the models that are available being single

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stage or two stage and a minority of that being inverted driven systems.

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Have you seen a flip in that for model selection?

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Because as we drive closer to efficiency, we really have to introduce inverters into

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the mix to be able to meet these requirements.

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And so I'm starting to see a lot more inverters and a lot less single stage and two stage

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equipment.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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There's still a market though.

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Oh, yeah.

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Price point.

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There's markets that are more price sensitive.

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Sure.

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You still need to have a single stage or two stage, but we're seeing definitely absolutely

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what you're saying.

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The regulations are getting more strict.

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The efficiency levels.

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We need to just keep up with the industry.

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So yeah, absolutely.

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Inverted driven is kind of becoming the norm in the residential.

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We're still seeing in certain markets, like in the South, for example, in the US, we're

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seeing still the need for single stage or two stage because you optimize it at a certain

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temperature.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So that is something that does, I'd say the benefit and obviously the price as well of

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a two stage.

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It's less complex.

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So that drives down the cost of the units.

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Yeah.

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And that completely makes sense.

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Now, Matt, when we think about the commercial applications, not everyone thinks about heat

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pumps in a commercial environment.

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And primarily because a lot of times we don't even see the equipment.

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We're talking about a lot of rooftop units.

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We're talking about a lot of systems that are not in the environment that we are witnessing.

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But there are a lot of heat pumps in the commercial sector.

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And what is the evolution of heat pumps now that we're going to see in the commercial

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side?

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Yeah.

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So I really love the example you used with the car earlier because that's exactly what

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we've seen, not just with heat pumps, but with commercial products.

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The transition from electromechanical to microprocessor controls, the digitalization of the entire

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portfolio starting in the unit itself, how you commission it, how you service it, and

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now moving into the customer space and how our customers interact, how a building owner

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is going to interact.

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So much has become digitalized that was not before.

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And we've seen that same thing with heat pumps, specifically with John's controls, the introduction

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of our smart equipment controller roughly 10 years ago really moved us into the microprocessor

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world from a control standpoint where it is now our standard controller.

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You cannot get controls from us that are going to be electromechanical anymore.

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What that's opened up with us for heat pumps is bringing in some of those other technologies.

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So we're not quite at the same level of technology integration with inverter compressors as the

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residential team.

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Yeah, I get that.

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But variable speed fans, all of that, that's going to be standard on all of our commercial

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products whether it's an AC or a heat pump.

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And so that's the first kind of introduction into inverter technology for our customers

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was with VFDs applied on the blower, modulating your airflow there, which obviously gets you

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to higher efficiencies.

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Indeed.

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As we do look forward and where things are going, so Pierro talked about cold climate

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heat pumps.

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That's definitely something in the commercial sector we're watching as well.

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Oh, really?

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Commercials a little bit behind the residential folks as an industry.

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One of the things I think really helped the residential side of the business is the DOE

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cold climate challenge.

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Oh yeah, that really sparked everyone's interest.

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It sparked interest.

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It firmed up specifications.

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It kind of made funds available.

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Nothing like that has really come around on the commercial side yet.

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And so as a product manager, specifications, that's my world.

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That's what I care about.

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Sure.

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And as an industry, we're kind of picking here and there trying to figure out who's

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going to set that cold climate spec.

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Is it going to be the Department of Energy?

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Is it going to be CEE?

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Which entity is going to come forward and say, this is what a cold climate heat pump

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needs to look like in the commercial sector?

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We know as we drive to that, heat pumps are going to probably have a multi-phase evolution

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like you talked about.

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So in the commercial world, like you said, they've not been as prominent, not been as

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thought about.

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One of the things you see as a result of that in a lot of manufacturers' portfolio is you

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may have three, four different efficiency tiers for an AC model.

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And then here's the heat pump as well.

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A lot of times it was an afterthought.

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More like an optional item.

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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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You had kind of niche markets, certain climates that it played really well in.

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And so what we've seen is the first stage of that evolution is getting to higher efficiencies.

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And so we have multiple efficiency tiers.

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We have multiple product lines that overlap the same tonnage that all have heat pumps.

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So specifically our 3 to 12.5 ton portfolio, we have three different product lines that

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cross that tonnage range.

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Each of those now has a heat pump available.

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And on two of those, we have multiple efficiency tiers, a standard efficiency and a high efficiency.

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That's interesting.

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Just within the heat pump.

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In the past, that wasn't a thing.

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It was just here's the heat pump.

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If you need it, I hope it fits your needs.

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And so there's been a lot of evolution there moving forward.

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And we know inverter compressors, that's going to be a big part of the future as we reach

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higher efficiencies and prepare for cold climate heat pump challenges as well.

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Yeah, I can absolutely see that.

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And I can understand why there is a slight lag in between the residential and the commercial.

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When we look at the technology transition, we are driving for most of those transitions

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to happen in that residential sector first with our commercial and our VRV following

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afterwards.

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But it's not a lot of time.

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So in the next couple of years, I would anticipate we're going to see a lot more changes in that

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commercial sector, especially as we start becoming more comfortable in the residential

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side of inverters.

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Well, what about when we get to industrial?

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What are we going to see there, Rajesh?

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You know, I would start by saying that every chiller is a heat pump.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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So over the years, last 20, 30, 40 years, we have been using a lot of chillers.

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Now with the push for decarbonization and decarbonized heating and with customers having very clear

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carbon neutral goals and net zero goals, the most viable path to decarbonization is the

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use of heat pumps.

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I agree.

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Once again, I'll say that every chiller is a heat pump.

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You asked about the trend.

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The biggest trend that we are seeing, and I can provide a global perspective, but let's

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start with North America.

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In North America, if not all, many of the legacy buildings have this 180F or 160F hot

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water loop.

253
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:57,360
Sure.

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00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:03,000
You have an existing boiler using fossil fuels that produces that 180F water that goes into

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the building.

256
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It comes back at 160.

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And then the same building has a standalone chiller for the cooling needs of the building.

258
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So you have a standalone chiller, you have a standalone boiler.

259
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Working on a similar system, same environment.

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Right.

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So now if you really want to decarbonize and cut down your CO2 emissions, I'm not saying

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eliminate the boilers, but try to reduce the usage of the boiler to the maximum possible

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extent.

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So you need a heat pump that can simultaneously provide chilled water and hot water.

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Now the standalone chiller that you had in the building was doing, let's say, 42F chilled

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water.

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And the boiler was doing 180F hot water.

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So you need a heat pump that can do simultaneous 42F and let's say 170F hot water.

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There are not many technologies out there that can do that.

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But fortunately for us, as I said, every chiller is a heat pump.

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So there are places in the world, like Middle East, where water is a big issue.

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Has always been a big issue.

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And they need a lot of cooling.

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Yes, a lot of water for these towers.

275
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Right.

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So dry coolers and bank of radiators.

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00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:23,800
So several years ago, 10-15 years ago, we developed what is called a high lift chiller

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that can provide the chilled water that you need, 42 degrees or 44 degrees, using very

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high entering condenser water temperatures.

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Something like 130F, 140F.

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Now look at the same equipment in a different way.

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If I apply the same equipment as a heat pump, now I can get 42F and 150, 160, 170F.

283
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,800
That makes the building retrofits very practical.

284
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:46,800
Sure, absolutely.

285
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,120
You don't need to get into expensive air side convergence.

286
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,520
So that is one big trend.

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00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,120
If you really want to decarbonize existing legacy buildings, you've got to have that

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00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,720
medium to large capacity, high lift, high temperature heat pump.

289
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:08,600
But the other one of all the sectors and segments, if there is one that has committed itself

290
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,200
more to sustainability, it's the higher education.

291
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,680
The college campuses, right?

292
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:14,680
Yes.

293
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,800
For obvious reasons.

294
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:27,220
And on any college campus, the heating load, the 10% of the total heating load is for low

295
00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:34,280
pressure steam that is used for sterilization, cage washing, autoclaves and so on.

296
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:40,120
So our customers are now coming, okay, not only I need 170F hot water, very high hot

297
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,600
water temperature, but now actually I want to decarbonize my steam.

298
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,920
Oh yeah, I haven't really thought about it from that perspective.

299
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,120
So now you're looking at totally different heat pump technology that can actually deliver

300
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,920
steam directly, replacing the fossil fuel based steam.

301
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,080
And that's the other big one.

302
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:03,400
If you are able to do that, then the industrial process decarbonization also gets simplified.

303
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,400
Yeah, absolutely.

304
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,960
Now you kind of replace your 30-40 pound steam with the steam coming from the heat pumps

305
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,960
as opposed to from boilers.

306
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:12,960
Wow.

307
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,000
And our customers are expecting to do all of this using low GWP refrigerant.

308
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,000
Yeah, yeah, just add this on top.

309
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,800
Yeah, and in some cases customers say actually I want a zero GWP refrigerant.

310
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:29,320
So fortunately we are working on all of these technologies using a variety of refrigerants.

311
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,200
You know, there is no one ideal refrigerant.

312
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,200
No, absolutely.

313
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,240
So that's why we are kind of diversified quite well.

314
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,240
So I think about particularly our buildings.

315
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,640
I hadn't even thought about the school aspect of heat pumps from the industrial side, but

316
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,100
when we start looking at the electrification movement and we see that we're going to be

317
00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:51,480
eliminating gas options in many places around the country, that does provide an immediate

318
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,400
solution when we start looking at high capacity heat pumps that can deliver both our chilled

319
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:02,400
water, our hot water, and now even potentially steam and at low GWP refrigerant solutions.

320
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,400
So as we look at an industry, not only are we looking at the residential taking shift,

321
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,400
we're looking at commercial taking shift, we're looking at industrial taking a shift.

322
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,760
And so we're hoping to paint that picture for everyone that an entire industry is actually

323
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,400
moving.

324
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,000
And we're learning these technologies as we go and there's a lot to keep up with.

325
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:27,160
And so that's a fantastic representation of what we will see for new equipment in an industrial

326
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,400
application.

327
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,240
So let's talk about timeframe in some of these.

328
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,880
Let's go back and talk about residential.

329
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:40,760
And we've seen this transition into residential specifically in our air to air heat pumps.

330
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,040
But what about like air to water?

331
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,920
Are we seeing air to water solutions?

332
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,820
Because we know that in industrial we have air to water solutions.

333
00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:52,400
Do we see residential moving into a potentially an air to water environment, particularly

334
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,400
with the capacity and the capabilities of these heat pumps?

335
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,080
Yeah, this is a great question.

336
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,280
I think that there is a slight trend in that direction.

337
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,640
We're not seeing it as prevalent yet.

338
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,640
Especially here in the US.

339
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,640
Yes.

340
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:07,640
Yeah.

341
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,000
I think in international markets, I think they're a little more popular.

342
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,960
I think the US, we're still very strong with the air to air.

343
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:19,480
So I can't really speak 90% of our products or at least the products that we manage in

344
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,680
the witch of the factory are going to be air to air.

345
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,000
So I think that's something that we haven't seen as much air to water.

346
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,920
But I think there is definitely a market for it.

347
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:28,920
Right.

348
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,280
Because we look at industrial applications as a prime candidate for our air to water

349
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,360
exchanges.

350
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:34,800
What about in the commercial side?

351
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:40,400
Do we see more heat pumps being introduced for a air to water style scenario in the commercial

352
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:41,400
applications?

353
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,640
Well, they're certainly there.

354
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:50,720
I would say probably the biggest hindrance of transitioning to air to water and where

355
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,600
package rooftops kind of reign king is cost.

356
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:59,200
And we know a majority of installations are going to be cost focused.

357
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,960
And I think frankly, that's something that has held heat pumps back a little bit in the

358
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,720
past is seeing that cost delta going from an AC with a furnace to a heat pump.

359
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,240
Some customers without having the education of understanding the decarbonization benefits

360
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,200
and those things, they didn't want to pay the higher price point.

361
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:21,560
So I do think as we explore air to water, it's growing as all heat pumps are growing.

362
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,680
I think cost is going to be a big deciding factor on can we land at the right price point?

363
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,160
Can we get customers the air to water product at a rooftop level?

364
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,640
Or is it going to continue to be a little bit higher and drive customers to the rooftop

365
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:35,640
solution?

366
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:36,640
Excellent.

367
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,200
You know, Rajesh, you mentioned a very interesting thing with refrigerants a while ago that everyone

368
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,680
is looking for solutions for refrigerants.

369
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:51,280
We have a lot of limited access to refrigerants in this R410A phase down particularly.

370
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:57,340
In industrial, it can sometimes be even crazier with the amount of refrigerant transitions.

371
00:19:57,340 --> 00:20:01,400
So I get a lot of questions about what refrigerants are we going to see with the manufacturers?

372
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,740
And so I think it's a good opportunity to take a look at the refrigerants that are going

373
00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:08,560
forward and not just in heat pumps, but in equipment in general.

374
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,480
So let's look at the residential side and let's understand what Johnson Controls is

375
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,520
going to be looking at for some of our lower GWP refrigerants in equipment.

376
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:17,520
Yeah, yeah.

377
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,520
I mean, absolutely.

378
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,280
I think this transition, like you mentioned, right, has been very hectic for the residential

379
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,280
market.

380
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,280
Absolutely.

381
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,880
From R410A to R454B, slightly flammable refrigerants.

382
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,240
So we've put all the safety around it.

383
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:35,240
And I think that's kind of where we're seeing in the next few years, we expect to have another

384
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,680
transition coming up.

385
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,160
We don't have a timeline yet, but we definitely see it coming.

386
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,160
I know it's coming.

387
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,160
We have to.

388
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:49,680
So as we make those regulations stricter around low GWP, I think that definitely our R&D teams

389
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,000
are exploring different refrigerants like propane or CO2.

390
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,840
There's a lot of refrigerants that are out there that we can potentially look into.

391
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,760
So that is what our teams are doing.

392
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,520
They're researching, they're looking at performance, they're looking at efficiency levels.

393
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,440
How can we get maximized and get the best out of our heat pumps with different refrigerants?

394
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,840
And what is the impact to the cost?

395
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,440
What's the impact to the material?

396
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,680
Do we have compressor technology that's available that can support that transition?

397
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,080
So all of those things we're looking into, we're just kind of waiting to see what the

398
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,480
industry as a whole is doing.

399
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,040
But we are very prepared.

400
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,320
We're looking into all of that, just like we did with this latest transition.

401
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,680
So if I could, I wanted to add just a little bit to that.

402
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:28,680
Sure.

403
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,880
Pierre talked about being very prepared.

404
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,680
And I think one of the things that our engineering teams did really well, so with the transition,

405
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,880
moving to A2Ls, low GWP, our teams really found two refrigerants they wanted to consider.

406
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,480
R32, R454B were the two they looked at.

407
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,240
And multiple years of testing went into the decision making process.

408
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:52,760
One of the things I really liked that our engineering team did in selecting R454B was

409
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:59,360
kind of looking to the future and, okay, we've got a low GWP threshold now, 750 coming in.

410
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,480
These two refrigerants, they're both below that.

411
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:02,640
But what happens if that number drops?

412
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:03,640
What will it be in the future?

413
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:04,640
Right.

414
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:05,640
What will it be?

415
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,720
And so one of the benefits that we saw in utilizing R454B was trying to insulate ourselves

416
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:17,680
if there is a slight decrease in the future to that maximum GWP that's allowed, let's

417
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080
say it drops from 750 to 500.

418
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040
With R454B, we are still below 500.

419
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,040
And so R32 is above 500.

420
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,920
So we wanted to kind of insulate ourselves from a potential slight decrease in the future

421
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,720
before it drops all the way to zero or whatever the case may be.

422
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,360
And Piero mentioned something I want to talk about on the commercial side.

423
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,480
He mentioned the safety factor as well.

424
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,120
And that played a big role.

425
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:43,960
I would say a majority of our development on the commercial side has been around the

426
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,240
safety factors.

427
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,600
What happens not just with the refrigerant, but our electrical components?

428
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,640
You have to look at what are they rated for?

429
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:51,640
Are they spark-rated?

430
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,080
What's the environment that they are in?

431
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,160
Right.

432
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,880
Our engineering team, so with refrigerant detection systems, knowing that we have to

433
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,080
put these sensors into our units, they want to optimize.

434
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,600
We want to have the fewest sensors as possible, keep our costs as low as we can for our customers.

435
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,320
And so we went through a test process where they put, I think in one case it was over

436
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,920
30 sensors inside of our unit, intentionally had a leak within the unit to simulate the

437
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,280
field environment.

438
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,520
And they looked at where the refrigerant was pinging all these sensors.

439
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,440
Looking at concentration levels in different areas.

440
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:24,440
Exactly.

441
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,160
And figuring out where we need to put it if we needed to.

442
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,160
Yeah.

443
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,840
So how can we put the fewest sensors in the unit to optimize and make sure we cover every

444
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:33,840
piece of that unit?

445
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,760
So I mean, in some of our commercial products, we've been able to locate just a single sensor

446
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:38,760
in the product.

447
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:44,080
Some as they get bigger need two or three sensors based around all of that testing.

448
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,520
And the last thing I want to say, and then turn it back to you.

449
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,520
No, no.

450
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,520
This is great.

451
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,200
This is a wonderful segue into another topic here.

452
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,840
So from a safety standpoint too, and kind of helping our customers through the transition,

453
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,780
you know, with commercial products, with all products, but our commercial products kind

454
00:23:59,780 --> 00:24:05,640
of spread across three different categories of how we have to treat H2O refrigerants from

455
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:06,640
a safety standpoint.

456
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:07,640
Okay, sure.

457
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,220
Because of the amount of refrigerant in the units.

458
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:11,360
So there are three categories.

459
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:16,600
There's a threshold that if you're below four pounds, code does not require a refrigerant

460
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,600
detection sensor.

461
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:18,600
That's right.

462
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,280
But it is not required by code.

463
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,480
If you're in the middle threshold where a majority of our commercial products land,

464
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,880
it is dependent on where that product's applied.

465
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,200
The upper threshold, you always have to have it.

466
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,360
It is just, Hey, there's so much refrigerant in this unit.

467
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:32,880
You have to have a sensor.

468
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,840
But a majority of commercial products, basically everything that my team manufactures from three

469
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:42,600
tons to around 50 tons falls into the middle category where you actually have to look at

470
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,120
not just the unit, but the application.

471
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:49,600
You have to look at how much space, what's the volume of the space that that unit cools

472
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,320
or heats for a heat pump.

473
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,040
You have to look at the smallest room that's serviced.

474
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,520
And you even have to go down to look at the discharge height in the space.

475
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,400
What we have done as Johnson Controls, we want to give our customers as much flexibility

476
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,400
as possible.

477
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,600
We don't want to just say, look, you might need a sensor, so we're going to put it on

478
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,600
everything.

479
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,960
We want our customers to be able to make that decision, but know that they are making the

480
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,200
right decision based on code.

481
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,040
And so we've put together a calculator.

482
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,600
We call it our RDS calculator, the Refrigerant Detection System Calculator.

483
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,880
It's available to our customers on our DS Solutions app.

484
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,600
It's available in our selection tools.

485
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,000
So what our customers can do when they're selecting our A2L products, they can go in,

486
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,000
make a selection.

487
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,680
And we know, obviously, we're the manufacturers, we know how much refrigerant is in that unit.

488
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,740
We plug that into the calculator and then we walk them through step by step.

489
00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:38,200
What is the total area that you're servicing?

490
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,200
Right, let's measure this location.

491
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,600
How much cubic space do we have in here?

492
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,600
Exactly.

493
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,800
So we walk them through that process and then we make the calculations for them.

494
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:44,800
Oh, I love that idea.

495
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,720
And we let them know at the end and they can add it to their engineering submittals and

496
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:53,200
it will say an RDS is required or an RDS is not required for this particular application.

497
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,440
Now, again, a customer can always choose to have the sensor if they want to, if it's a

498
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,840
large job and they know some units need it, some don't, they want consistency.

499
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,200
Or even if they just, hey, they want to provide that extra level of security.

500
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,240
So they can always do that, but we want to make sure they are accurately informed of

501
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,440
whether it's required for their particular application.

502
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,040
I'm so glad you went this direction because I've always been hesitant to ask.

503
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,480
I ask everyone, hey, can I see what your RDS system looks like?

504
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:21,480
Can we look at sensors?

505
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,800
Can we see what our control looks like?

506
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,080
And I've got a lot of input on the residential side, but I've not gotten a lot on the commercial.

507
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,560
And that's a wonderful explanation of what we're doing.

508
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,960
We're just looking at the space going, okay, is there a potential of needing one here?

509
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,280
And you may not.

510
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,200
And if you don't, but you still want to add one, we still have that capability and we

511
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,360
have a calculator to help make that more sense.

512
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:43,360
Absolutely.

513
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:46,600
And if we look at that as a whole, is that a topic that we can talk a little bit more

514
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,800
about as RDS and different applications?

515
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,160
I think it's a fantastic thing to talk about because we have so many people going, I know

516
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,160
it's coming.

517
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,320
I know it's going to be here.

518
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,020
What is it going to look like?

519
00:26:57,020 --> 00:27:00,240
So in our commercial, we're starting to see, we've got a good calculator for that.

520
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,760
What about in the commercial or the, or the industrial and the residential sectors?

521
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,880
Do industrial is kind of a unique one because a lot of it's outside, but there are times

522
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,920
where we will see some interior applications.

523
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,720
Also you know, first of all, as my colleagues actually well said, we are better prepared

524
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,720
and preparing proactively for the future.

525
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,760
At this particular show on our Booth Johnson Controls Booth, we have two air to water heat

526
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,120
pumps.

527
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:32,000
The first heat pump is with R454B refrigerant and the other one is transcritical CO2.

528
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Oh, looky there.

529
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,360
It's a completely natural refrigerant with a GWP of less than one.

530
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:41,840
And then we have two heat pumps, water to water heat pumps that are with low GWP refrigerants

531
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:42,840
as well, R1234ZE.

532
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:43,840
Really?

533
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,840
I missed that.

534
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,040
I've got to come take a look at that one.

535
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,040
Definitely.

536
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,900
And then R515B.

537
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:56,320
But besides these fluids, right, as the trend is to go to higher and higher temperatures,

538
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,600
hotter and hotter, hot water temperatures, potentially creating steam out of the heat

539
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,400
pumps, we are also investing in naturals.

540
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,920
And so I listed down some refrigerants here so that I don't miss any.

541
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,840
And so besides the one that I already quoted, we have ammonia, which is a B2L fluid.

542
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:14,840
Absolutely it is.

543
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,680
Don't hear much about it, but it is there.

544
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,760
Ammonia heat pumps, pentane.

545
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,760
We are working, sorry, we are doing butane heat pump right now.

546
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,560
We're working on pentane soon.

547
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,080
And we are also working on something unique, which is a blend of ammonia and water.

548
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,560
We already have water as the refrigerant in our portfolio.

549
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,560
Absolutely.

550
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:35,560
Yeah.

551
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:36,560
Now we had ammonia as well.

552
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,320
Now we are using a blend of ammonia and water.

553
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,840
And then transcritical CO2 that I already mentioned.

554
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:49,280
So really a huge variety of refrigerant choices for our customers.

555
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:55,920
From a safety point of view, from a plant room ventilation point of view, I've been

556
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,320
to plant rooms with ZE and with ammonia.

557
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:06,280
So they have the standard requirements like ventilation fan, the refrigerant leak detection,

558
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:07,280
emergency washers.

559
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,240
So it really depends on the refrigerant charge.

560
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,240
Sure.

561
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:16,400
A lot of ammonia chillers and ammonia heat pumps tend to be low charge anyway, but yet

562
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,200
there are some plant room requirements that you need to address.

563
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,200
To address with the 2Ls.

564
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,200
Yes.

565
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,200
You need to address through.

566
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,520
Okay.

567
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,520
I wanted to mention something, but I don't want to deviate from your agenda.

568
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,080
No, no, this is an open agenda.

569
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,440
I want this to, this is the best conversations when they go off the rail.

570
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,160
Something that I forgot to mention.

571
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:47,680
So you talked about trends and insights.

572
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,240
One of the big things that is happening out there is what is called as geo exchange, which

573
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,160
is different from geothermal.

574
00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:02,120
So in the case of geothermal, you are extracting the heat, but you're not necessarily returning

575
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,120
the heat.

576
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Yeah, absolutely.

577
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,160
But in case of geo exchange, it's a closed loop.

578
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,200
So let's go back to our chiller.

579
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:18,300
And let's say, let's say we are in the month of July, hot month of July, August.

580
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:22,520
So the chiller is producing chill water.

581
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,040
And let's say typically you are using cooling tower water for the condenser.

582
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,600
So that heat is being rejected to the cooling tower, right?

583
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:30,600
Right, absolutely.

584
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,960
So instead of rejecting the heat to the cooling tower, now you're actually sending it using

585
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:42,720
a geo exchange system, let's say 700, 800 feet deep, that goes and exchanges heat with

586
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,280
the sedimentary rocks.

587
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,800
Yes, absolutely.

588
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,240
And so that becomes like your storage capacity.

589
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,240
Yeah.

590
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,800
Storage capacity.

591
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,340
And so at that depth, the outside ambient temperature has no influence.

592
00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:58,440
So that becomes like your thermal storage tank, right?

593
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,700
Absolutely it does.

594
00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:06,440
So come wintertime, you can harvest that heat and that becomes an evaporator source.

595
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,440
That is very intriguing.

596
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,360
To deliver 160, 170, 150, whatever the customer wants for heating.

597
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:18,760
And a live example of that, this is not a hypothetical design.

598
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,480
It is actually being done at Princeton.

599
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,040
It has been done at Princeton.

600
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,640
We just commissioned the system with two large heat pumps, beautiful.

601
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,680
The name of the plant is called Tiger Plant, thermally integrated geo exchange resource

602
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:32,680
system.

603
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,680
I love that idea.

604
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:34,680
So what is Princeton doing?

605
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,440
Princeton is very clear.

606
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,800
No combustion and no cooling towers.

607
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:39,800
Simple.

608
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,560
No combustion, no cooling towers.

609
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,060
Do it all with heat pumps.

610
00:31:44,060 --> 00:31:48,320
And so today, this morning there was a article from New York Times and I just want to make

611
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:49,520
sure I quote it correctly.

612
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:50,520
Sure.

613
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,880
So the title of the article was to slash carbon emissions.

614
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,280
Colleges are digging really deep.

615
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,280
There we go.

616
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,000
So something to watch out for is geo exchange.

617
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,600
Yeah, I can see that.

618
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,360
We talk about energy.

619
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,760
There are a variety of ways that we can transfer energy and we always forget that.

620
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,040
We typically look at heat pumps going, okay, we're going to move heat from a place that

621
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,920
we don't want it and we're going to put it to a place that it doesn't particularly pertain

622
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:18,920
to us.

623
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,560
So we're moving heat from indoors to outdoors.

624
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,040
Well, what about that heat?

625
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,660
We just moved energy.

626
00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:28,520
Why can't we store our energy and reutilize that in other applications?

627
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,000
So I'm really glad that you brought that up because it makes us think outside of the box,

628
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,960
which we're going to have to going forward.

629
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,500
Our entire decarbonization effort, whether you look at it as a degasification or you

630
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:42,320
look at it as electrification, they all are serving the same purpose.

631
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,120
We're looking at reducing our global impact.

632
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,560
We're looking at reducing our carbon footprint and how do we do that?

633
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,320
Well, we simply look at it from a new perspective.

634
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,260
We use technology to be able to bridge these gaps with energy and put them into places

635
00:32:57,260 --> 00:32:59,960
that make more sense and that makes so much sense.

636
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:06,240
And also make it easy for our customers because heat pump is a great idea, but there is also

637
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,780
a general lack of awareness and a little bit of a reluctance to deploy.

638
00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:18,040
So make it easy by taking the turnkey responsibility and making sure you're able to offer, let's

639
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,240
say, factory performance test.

640
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,200
The customer can test the heat pump at different conditions.

641
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,560
Every customer is unique.

642
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:30,720
So for example, in the case of Princeton University, we not only tested the unit at design points,

643
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,840
but 17 other off design points to simulate the real world conditions.

644
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,260
The Princeton team was there.

645
00:33:37,260 --> 00:33:43,640
So all I'm saying is a heat pump manufacturer should have that capacity to demonstrate the

646
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,000
performance before the unit is shipped to the field.

647
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,320
I really like that idea.

648
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,340
So even in the industrial side, a lot of times we think about what happens in the industrial

649
00:33:52,340 --> 00:33:56,240
can move down into commercial, can move down into residential.

650
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,880
So now we have all three sectors of our industry looking at what are our best options.

651
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,200
I look at that going, there are so many potentials in the commercial and in the residential applications

652
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,880
if we rethink how we use our energy.

653
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,440
Many times in the commercial, especially when we get into the VRF side of things, we look

654
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,240
at like heat recovery, where we're starting to use our thinking outside of the box perspective

655
00:34:17,240 --> 00:34:21,640
going, if I have one room that needs heating and I have one room that needs cooling, why

656
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:27,560
don't I just move the heat from one location to the other and not expel it to the air outdoor?

657
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,720
I can use so much less energy to do that type of work.

658
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:35,480
So I hope that we see more of that going forward.

659
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,720
Is there, I know we can't talk about R&D side of things too far, but do we look at those

660
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:45,400
in the residential and commercial applications as potential energy solutions?

661
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,400
Yeah, absolutely.

662
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,120
I think the residential can be a little bit more challenging because the smaller you go,

663
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,280
right, there's losses, the percentage when you start having all those thermal losses,

664
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,200
it's going to be more impactful on your system.

665
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,200
Yes.

666
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,720
I think on the residential side is a little bit more fragmented, I'd say.

667
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,640
But yeah, definitely that's something that in the future, we're definitely going to start

668
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,640
seeing that.

669
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,880
And we see it in some markets.

670
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,920
We see where, like to your point, right, the heat that is being rejected can be used to

671
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,920
heat the water that you use to shower.

672
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,920
Sure, why not?

673
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,720
There's a lot of potentials there, but I think it's going to be a, you know, we're going

674
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,480
to follow the trend of the industrial commercial teams potentially.

675
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,320
Can I also bring in an extra element?

676
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,320
Oh, please do.

677
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,360
Decarbonization journey.

678
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,160
So we talked about energy savings and CO2 emissions, but more and more the focus is

679
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,200
also shifting towards water.

680
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,200
Yes.

681
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,680
You know, a lot of places water just doesn't exist or it's too expensive.

682
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,680
Exactly.

683
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:45,320
So somebody stopped by at our booth yesterday and made me walk him through the heat pumps

684
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,160
and the major components.

685
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,800
And in the end, he asked a very important question saying that, okay, so what is the

686
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,760
sustainability impact of this particular unit on display?

687
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,120
It was a 400 tonne cooling and 7 million BTUs of heating.

688
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:03,120
Okay.

689
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,840
And 170F.

690
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:13,000
So I took an example, assuming electric rate of 10 cents a kilowatt hour and let's say

691
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,780
gas dollar, dollar 20 per tonne, something like that.

692
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:27,960
So the quick numbers were, you will see annual energy savings in terms of OPEC's cost down

693
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,680
by 25%.

694
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,320
And water savings of 30%.

695
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,400
What does that mean exactly for a 400 tonne application?

696
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:42,160
Actually that means a savings of 4 million gallons of water, 4 million gallons of water.

697
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,560
And then how much CO2 can you avoid?

698
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:45,560
Sure.

699
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,400
You can avoid something like 3,000 to 4,000 metric tons of CO2 per year.

700
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,320
So carbon tax is not here yet, but it's coming.

701
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,320
Absolutely it is coming.

702
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,320
It's already there in Canada.

703
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,240
It's there in other parts of the world.

704
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:05,200
So the CO2 avoidance is not just a good to no number, but it will have a commercial impact.

705
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,400
It could be a standard at some point.

706
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,400
Yep.

707
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,400
Oh, okay.

708
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,440
Well, let's talk about this.

709
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,160
So we know that we're making a lot of transitions here in the United States and North America.

710
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,360
I feel like we are actually very behind times in these transitions.

711
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:25,160
Can we talk about what we see in the commercial and in the residential and industrial internationally

712
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,520
and give us some hope that we are kind of behind.

713
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:29,520
We need to catch up.

714
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,200
We need to get to some new places in the industry.

715
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,960
So what do we see internationally happening in the heat pump eras?

716
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,640
All right.

717
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,700
Thank you.

718
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:47,440
So in North America, somehow the focus seems to be on buildings.

719
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,720
Yes.

720
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:55,040
But in Europe, I see that they are extending themselves beyond buildings.

721
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,880
So industries, process industries are a big consumer of primary energy.

722
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:00,880
Yes, absolutely.

723
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,080
So once again, if you need to decarbonize that steam, you need those high temperature

724
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,200
heat pumps, high capacity pumps.

725
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,040
So there are two things happening, at least in Europe.

726
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:16,960
One is industrial process decarbonization, but also district heating.

727
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,680
So you have, for example, recent example is city of Hamburg, or we have done district

728
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,240
heating in Paris and Vienna and such places.

729
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:31,480
A recent example is Hamburg, where they will be using the evaporator source as the water

730
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:40,040
from the harbor and putting that in the evaporator to produce hot water for the city of Hamburg.

731
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,040
Really?

732
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,280
Then in Vancouver, we are using municipal sewage water.

733
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,120
Yes, I've heard a lot about that.

734
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,640
As the evaporator source, a neighborhood called Falls Creek to deliver district heating.

735
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,080
And EnWave Energy Corporation in Toronto is doing district heating using heat pumps.

736
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:04,440
But beyond district heating and buildings, in the US, at least in the last 18, 20 months,

737
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,200
24 months, I'm seeing really good momentum.

738
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,380
Dallas Fort Worth Airport comes to mind.

739
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:14,400
So they are going the heat pump route.

740
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:20,040
Ford Automotive Company, they are deploying five heat pumps for something called as Ford

741
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,920
Blue Oval City.

742
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,400
So yes, we have been a bit behind the rest of the world, but I think we are catching

743
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,160
up very fast and in a very practical way.

744
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:35,000
But in Europe, once again, back to the focus is on steam right now, to decarbonize that

745
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,000
steam.

746
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:43,480
In Asia, it's all about, in China, for example, it's all about district heating.

747
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:49,960
If I can add to that, I think on the residential side, we've seen in the global market, the

748
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:57,880
right, they're ahead, they're kind of lagging behind with the electrification effort, decarbonization.

749
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,640
So in the residential side, variable speed and inverted driven equipment has been more

750
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,880
popular or mini splits, for example, on the residential side have been very popular.

751
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,120
So I just wanted to add that because that's something that, yeah, I mean, we see that.

752
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,640
So ducted systems are a little behind when it comes to those type of electrification

753
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:15,640
efforts.

754
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:16,680
Indeed.

755
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,160
Is this an opportunity to talk about heat pump water heater side of things?

756
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,160
Is this a topic that any of you have an interest in or save that for another topic?

757
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,160
Because I know we start seeing heat pumps used in a variety of other applications.

758
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,560
I just know it's an interesting thing that we see.

759
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,440
I've seen a lot of equipment around for domestic water.

760
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,240
We always talk about them for the comfort cooling side.

761
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:45,560
Do we see much in the heat pump water side in commercial applications?

762
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,080
I can honestly say I have to bow out on that one.

763
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,640
We'll save that one for another topic.

764
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,240
So what do we look forward to in the next couple of years?

765
00:40:55,240 --> 00:41:02,160
What are our primary focuses for Johnson Controls looking at the education and development of

766
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,720
heat pumps for residential, for commercial, for applications?

767
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:10,200
And what are some good resources that we will have for our contractors and for educators

768
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,520
looking at new products, wanting to know, I need to know about these.

769
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:14,800
I want to see what this product is.

770
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,000
I need some help understanding what's going on in this sector.

771
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,200
Let's start with residential and work our way up.

772
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,200
Yeah, absolutely.

773
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,360
I think on the residential, we have a lot of resources.

774
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,880
But to everyone's points when we talked about the heat pump not being as popular or people

775
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,800
having some maybe a bad connotation of heat pumps not being able to handle cold climates,

776
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,760
I think that is where we're going to put a lot of our focus, trying to educate our customers

777
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,080
and help them understand that heat pumps can do more than what you do.

778
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,080
They can do a lot of work.

779
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,160
So I think that's going to be one angle that we're going to take.

780
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,080
The other angle is obviously educate our customers about the transitions that we're having and

781
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,880
also what are the benefits of our new products that we are launching.

782
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,040
On the residential side, the ducted residential side, we have a lot of products being launched

783
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,880
this year with a lot of new features, with a lot of obviously with the new refrigerant.

784
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,440
And so a lot of our effort is going to be around that and promoting the tools like Matt

785
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,920
mentioned the, you know, the refrigerant detection system tool.

786
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,560
So a lot of those things we're going to be promoting throughout this next couple of years.

787
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:11,560
Excellent.

788
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,160
So what are the resources that we can look at for residential products?

789
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,160
Yeah.

790
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,880
So our website will definitely have a lot of resources, junction controls will have

791
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,440
a lot of resources and then you can go depending on, you know, we're looking commercial residential,

792
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,160
but yeah, our website will definitely be the landing page where you can go and find more

793
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,160
resources.

794
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,160
Excellent.

795
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,960
So what about the commercial side of things for this year?

796
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:30,960
Yeah.

797
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,960
Education is going to be massively important.

798
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:38,120
Just, you know, as much as in the product manager world, we kind of wear all the hats.

799
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,600
We were joking earlier, each of us in our individual business groups, we all are the

800
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:43,600
firefighters.

801
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,600
We all are the no one else knows what to do.

802
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,400
So can you get the call?

803
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:53,980
And so education just as important as product and technology is going to be a very key part

804
00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:56,240
of what we do over the next few years.

805
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:00,760
You and I were talking a little bit yesterday about our industry and how you've got a lot

806
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,360
of excitement and a lot of energetic young people coming in.

807
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,600
And then you've got people who've been around for a little bit who maybe they've installed

808
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,720
a heat pump and it wasn't necessarily the right application or they didn't have the

809
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:11,680
right technology at the time.

810
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,680
And they've said, okay, heat pumps don't work in my area.

811
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,760
And one of the things that we really are going to have to do is educate our customers on

812
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,240
the heat pumps of today are not the heat pumps of 20 years ago.

813
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:23,240
No, absolutely not.

814
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:27,460
In the applicable regions for heat pumps, it is now everywhere.

815
00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:32,300
It is not just limited to those pockets where the climate's just right and your energy costs

816
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:33,840
are just right for it to make sense.

817
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,560
It's not about necessarily the energy costs anymore.

818
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,420
It's about decarbonization.

819
00:43:38,420 --> 00:43:40,840
It is about how we impact the environment.

820
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,840
And that is something that we can now apply globally throughout North America.

821
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,860
Really we have applications now and ways to get to using heat pumps everywhere and educating

822
00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:51,860
our customers.

823
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:54,600
And that starts with our sales team.

824
00:43:54,600 --> 00:44:00,120
And then it moves to the commercial side, our distribution partners, our engineers that

825
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,120
we call on.

826
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,720
And it moves down to the end users and letting some national accounts we work with know, hey,

827
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:09,920
if you have decarbonization goals, here's how we can help you get there.

828
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,000
Letting large facility owners know you don't necessarily want to just do a like for like

829
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,920
replacement just because you had a furnace today doesn't mean you have to replace it

830
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,320
with a furnace moving forward.

831
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,760
So those educational pieces are going to be hugely important.

832
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,800
One of the things that I think John's Controls is really doing a good job of taking the lead

833
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:34,000
in from an education standpoint is we have in Oklahoma City, so backtrack, our commercial

834
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,760
products are all manufactured in Norman, Oklahoma.

835
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:37,760
That's where I'm based out of.

836
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:38,760
Exactly.

837
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,960
And to keep it close to home, we have our Ducted Systems Academy.

838
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,240
Our training facility is in Oklahoma City about 15 minutes away from our plant where

839
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,760
we offer courses on everything.

840
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,280
One of those is a dedicated course on heat pumps, making sure our customers who may not

841
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,240
have worked with a heat pump before or they may not.

842
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:56,240
It's a hands on experience.

843
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:57,240
Yes, exactly.

844
00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:01,000
One of the things I love with it being so close to our facility when people come for

845
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,920
a training course, they get to come to the plant itself.

846
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:04,920
Oh wow.

847
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,200
They get to walk around, see where we build the product, see how we manufacture it.

848
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:09,200
Yeah.

849
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,200
Love that idea.

850
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:11,200
We would love to have you.

851
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,600
And then we take them to the Ducted Systems Academy.

852
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,420
They'll get hands on training.

853
00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:20,120
We have every piece of commercial product and residential equipment in the facility.

854
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,400
So whether they're there for a residential course, a commercial course, or a blend, they

855
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,180
will have some classroom time.

856
00:45:26,180 --> 00:45:27,580
They'll have hands on time.

857
00:45:27,580 --> 00:45:29,000
We have heat pumps in the facility.

858
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,020
So we have dedicated heat pump courses where someone who may be an experienced AC tech

859
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:36,120
can learn what's different.

860
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,120
How do inverter compressors work in this product?

861
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:45,560
How do I dial in the VFD to modulate my blower to maximize my efficiency?

862
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:46,560
Things like that.

863
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:52,800
So really taking a step forward on the education side and investing not just in, hey, we're

864
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,480
going to build products here, but we're also going to make this our facility where we are

865
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,320
going to lead the way with commercial rooftops.

866
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,600
Engineering, manufacturing, training, all really within 15 minutes of each other.

867
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,120
And then as Piero said, we have a lot of documentation on our websites.

868
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,780
The biggest thing right now with the refrigerant transition is we have landing pages explaining

869
00:46:12,780 --> 00:46:13,960
why is this happening?

870
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,520
What is new refrigerant going to do?

871
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,640
Why did we choose the refrigerant we did?

872
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,040
What does it mean for your products moving forward?

873
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:21,040
Right.

874
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,040
Absolutely.

875
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,000
I know Rajesh, when we get into industrial, that's a whole nother animal.

876
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,520
It's a little bit more specific, but what do we see for training and for awareness of

877
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:28,760
our industrial heat pump products?

878
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,360
I agree with what Piero and Matt said.

879
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,600
But in addition to that, our digital solutions team has very sophisticated tools such as

880
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,920
the CUP software, which stands for Central Utility Plan Software.

881
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,560
But in the last one year, we have developed a very nice cool tool.

882
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:54,600
When you go to a prospective customer and you are doing this speech on heat pumps, it's

883
00:46:54,600 --> 00:47:02,120
so important that the CO4 of the customer company should understand why should I allocate

884
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,600
my capital towards the heat pump project.

885
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,800
So we developed a ROI tool that will agree on, let's say, gas rate, electric rate, water

886
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,780
rate, and what's my current system versus what the heat pump will do.

887
00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:23,280
But in a very lucid language, how much less gas I'm going to burn as a result of the usage

888
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,280
of the heat pump.

889
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,420
Okay, it's electric driven technology, so my electric usage is going to go up.

890
00:47:28,420 --> 00:47:30,840
So how much more electricity I'm going to consume.

891
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,800
What's my incremental electrical bill going to be?

892
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,240
What's my CO2 reduction?

893
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:38,920
And in the end, what's my ROI?

894
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,800
That's all they want to know.

895
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,520
And so we developed this very simplified tool that helps you to input the numbers very quickly

896
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,720
and almost give an output that a CO4 can understand very easily.

897
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:51,720
I like that idea.

898
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,800
Well, I'll also say one more thing.

899
00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,280
Some of the heat pump jobs out there in the field have had some issues where unlike a

900
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:05,280
chiller, right, for a heat pump to work properly, you need to have proper load balance.

901
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:06,280
Oh, absolutely.

902
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,400
You know, you've got to have that cooling load in order to deliver the heating.

903
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:10,400
Sure.

904
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:16,200
So this is where we have had problems where manufacturers have had problems, I should

905
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:21,000
say, where you need all the cooling from the equipment, but you don't need as much heating

906
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:27,840
because of maybe it's a warm day, whatever, kids are off to vacation, etc., right, on

907
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,240
a college campus.

908
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:31,640
So how do you resolve this problem?

909
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,400
You resolve this problem by innovation.

910
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,920
And we have something called as double bundle condenser, two condenser bundles within a

911
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,800
common condenser shell where you now get rid of that excess heat that you don't need and

912
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,240
still keep the equipment online.

913
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:47,240
Oh, wow.

914
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:48,240
There you go.

915
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:54,040
Yes, training is important, but also true innovation and building into your design,

916
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,360
all those features that help our customer.

917
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,800
The other thing that we have included now is the variable frequency drives.

918
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,720
So heat pumps operate at different conditions, variable conditions, during daytime, during

919
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:05,720
nighttime.

920
00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:09,280
Sometimes you may be recovering water from a river, not necessarily from a building.

921
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,280
True.

922
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:11,280
The temperatures fluctuate.

923
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,280
So how do you keep the equipment online and not just rely on training?

924
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:16,280
Okay.

925
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,840
So a lot of things happening with our heat pump technologies.

926
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,200
So we thank Johnson Controls for joining us today.

927
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,680
I want everyone to stop by, take a look at all the innovations, the technologies, the

928
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:31,240
transitions, our new refrigerants, and we look forward to seeing you all next time on

929
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:32,240
Did You Know?

930
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:33,240
The ESCO HVAC Show.

931
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:34,240
Thanks, guys.

932
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:41,240
Thank you.