Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.
This episode recorded live at the 2024 AHR Expo.
Learn more about Johnson Controls at johnsoncontrols.com.
Good morning everyone.
I am here with Chris Forth from JCI.
Chris, you want to take a moment introduce yourself to everybody what you do?
Jason, Chris Forth, Johnson Controls have been in the industry 30 plus years.
Engineering, product management, now full-time regulatory focus.
So you have multiple different layers in your company, different industrial, commercial, residential.
You do a lot of different things and you handle the government affairs side for all of those departments?
Is that correct?
I share some of it.
We do have a full-time dedicated government affairs team that spends a lot more time on the hill and stuff.
But I do a lot of call it support work specifically when it comes to refrigerants and the HVAC products
where I have some knowledge with my engineering background.
So I do spend a lot of time in the DC area, but I also spend time in the state area in Canada sometimes as well as you know.
Yep.
Well that's good.
Today we're going to talk about refrigerants and specifically some of the next generation refrigerants.
And why we ended up with the refrigerants that we're transitioning to now.
Why did we leave behind 410A or 404A or 134A?
Why are we moving to these next generation refrigerants like R32, 454B, CO2, ammonia, propane?
What was the catalyst that drove us to this point?
Yeah Jason, a lot of it is a policy at both the global level and at the domestic level.
And you'll know many countries are there trying to address the climate issues associated with these refrigerants.
And those issues have led to policy changes.
I think we've all heard the Montreal Protocol.
Right.
That was the first global agreement to deal with what we call ozone depletion.
Now that's evolved to global warming potential.
And now there are laws in multiple countries, Europe, the US, Canada and so forth, that are
really mandating a transition to lower GWP.
We already went through this with ozone.
And now we're addressing the GWP side of things.
Okay, so originally we were getting rid of refrigerants because they were ozone depleting.
And now we're phasing out specific refrigerants because of the global warming potential of those refrigerants.
So the legislation is not specifying you must use this refrigerant.
They just give us a target and then it's up to the industry to say, well to meet this
target we can use this or this or this.
Yeah, to get specific, I'm going to talk to the US here, on the AIM Act, there's the bulk
phase down.
So the American Innovation and Manufacturing Act has three parts.
There's bulk phase down, I should emphasize bulk virgin refrigerant phase down.
And the little giveaway here is that it doesn't include reclaim.
Reclamation, right.
That's where our key is right there.
And then the second part of the AIM is what I think a lot of people understand is the
technology, the equipment prohibitions, EPA calls those the technology transition.
So air conditioning, a certain GWP level at a certain date, refrigeration, and even automotive
and phones are in scope.
And then the third part that is still pending, hasn't been finalized yet, is the refrigerant
management.
That has to do with the reclaim, recovery, section 608 and that sort of thing.
And some possible training requirements as well.
That's something that the EPA was looking into.
I did hear at a few of the podcasts this week that Europe is actually transitioning to a
required training model for these next generation refrigerants.
That's something that may make its way over here as well.
Right.
EPA is asking for comment on that right now.
They've asked for it.
The comments were actually due...
There was quite a few submitted.
Yeah, there were a lot of comments submitted on that.
So I think something will be done ultimately.
I don't know why.
Certainly if you look to other countries like Europe, they're moving that direction.
I think from a safety perspective, quality of work, having that training and licensing
requirements is a good thing.
It is.
I mean, if you look at say a chef or a hairstylist, they have to have certification, they have
to have recertification.
There's a lot of training that they have to do in order to be able to...
And we're dealing with things that are a lot more dangerous that put other people in harm's
way.
The training things should just be a no-brainer at that point.
Yeah.
And we're dealing with some equipment that is...
It's commercial equipment, right?
As far as commercial...
It could be a residential piece of equipment, but it's got voltage moving parts.
So having that training, understanding how refrigerants behave, how to store them...
How to handle them, right?
How to handle them is all important.
So these next generation of refrigerants, these two Ls, what is it specifically that
we need people to know that perhaps we were working with 22 or 410 or 134 and now all
of a sudden we're, let's say, 454B or R32, what's the big deal?
What is it that's scaring people?
Yeah.
Let me first start out with what those two L refrigerants, as you refer to, are not.
They are not hydrocarbons.
Thank you so much.
I needed to...
Listen, if everybody could tell 10 other people what he just said, and then those 10 people
tell 10 more people, I think we'll be okay.
Yeah.
And it's understandable with human nature, when you think of flammability, you think of
something that would be wildly flammable.
But these two Ls are not that at all.
They're very close to the current flammability A1.
The A's, the toxicity, the 1, 2, 2L, 3 are the flammability.
They're very close to the class 1 on flammability.
And in fact, if you look at the ASHRAE 34 flammability that assigns those, they were
so close, literally within a few degrees of being the same class.
But unfortunately, they are not, but the thing they are not, again, I want to emphasize,
they're not hydrocarbons.
Right.
So things like static electricity won't set them all.
Your power tools, your DC power tools, those things.
Technicians don't have to wear anti-static clothes or grounding devices.
None of that because of these refrigerants.
Nothing like that.
These refrigerants have a very high ignition energy requirement to ignite, much higher
than say a propane, which static, something like the magnitude.
It's close to five millijoules, right.
Right, millijoules.
So they're not that.
And the other thing I'll point out is the refrigerant 32 and the blend component, because
454B is a blend that has 32 and another well-known refrigerant, R1234YF, they've been around
for a long time.
Right, around us, right?
Right.
And now they're starting to come mainstream.
We've had them in our cars.
We've got A3s in our refrigerator at home.
For 10 years.
Right.
And so it's been on the periphery, but now it is about to come into the mainstream here
with all of these different, and different applications as well.
Exactly.
The thing I'd point out is that we used to have a specific refrigerant and it would have
all of these uses.
And as we move forward, we're going to see a lot of application specific, okay, for this
application we're going to use this refrigerant.
For this application we'll use this refrigerant.
We're not going to see a one-size-fits-all solution for these units moving forward.
Correct.
And so the EPA's got, it's called sector, sector like AC, refrigeration, automotive,
and they're going to become very, I'll call it custom.
It would be great if there was one refrigerant.
Right, yes.
But as these GWP levels get lowered, we have to be very specific.
And the EPA controls that with their SNAP listings.
And so the delineation of the refrigerants will be very different by some sectors.
Now some will be similar, right?
But the big residential light commercial products, the big volume most people used to will be
either R454B or R32.
You can see a lot of those systems here at the show this week.
There's a lot of manufacturers that have a 32 unit or a 454B unit here on display.
Residential commercial, light commercial, heavy commercial, a lot of that stuff.
We've got air-cooled chillers, very large tonnages that use 454.
Even the components we're seeing, 290 compressors here, A3 compressors, 454B compressors.
Intrinsically safe components at a lot of the electric booths.
So I mean, this is not something that's new.
This has been around for quite some time.
That's right.
It might be new to us because we haven't seen it before, but the technology and the ref...
It's been out for quite some time.
Yeah, I've encouraged people to go out and look if you've got a, like a window unit you
might've bought a few years ago, even 10 years ago.
We have one in a small space in one of our properties.
And guess what?
It's probably 10 years old.
I don't know the exact date.
Had R32 in it.
Yeah.
So I want to say it was 2014 or 2015, something like that, where it was allowed for use and
importation.
R32 in spot coolers and window units and things like that, sealed systems.
So R32 has been down this road before, just on the outside of the main line, but it is
now coming in.
Right.
And what we've had to do because of that different 2L designation is update all the building
codes.
And that's what's taking quite some time.
It's not a...
I mean, we have a lot of different building codes to the US.
Not all states use the same code.
They may use variations of the same code.
So it does take some time to get everybody on the same page when it comes to something
like that.
Yeah.
I've spent a lot of time and with our trade org, the Air Conditioning Heating Refrigeration
Institute, they've been really at the forefront of this, but they have members like us that
step in in certain states.
The Speaker's Bureau, yeah.
And I've done a few presentations with them for code officials and things, right.
So people like Chris and I do go to other states and talk to code officials and things
and say, listen, this is what's coming.
This is what you can anticipate.
You're going to have to update the building codes because pretty soon you're not going
to be able to buy these units.
And something that just recently published last year and is finalized this year is what
you mentioned earlier, the technology transition rule.
So what does that do for us?
Yeah, that's the equipment prohibitions.
And unfortunately, that rule was finalized back in late October of last year.
It had a surprise for us for split systems.
Right.
Had to be installed by January 1st, 2025.
Right.
So what do I do with everything that's in my warehouse?
Exactly.
Now, the original law that's now been amended for this sector, the air conditioning sector,
that covers residential and light commercial and heavy commercial, we thought we would
get a year's sale through on indoor components.
And the proposed rule, it was there.
And that's what it was back in 2022.
We thought we would get that.
Now, industry asked for a simple date of manufacture.
We said, look, if it's manufactured before that prohibition date, shouldn't be any restrictions.
What EPA forecast they would do is we'll give you a year.
What we got was zero.
Right.
We said the manufacturing date for a split for a new system had to be installed by 1-1-2025.
And that's just not going to happen.
Yeah.
But here was the nuance.
The nuance was you could still replace components, like a condenser, outdoor, or indoor cooler,
in an existing system.
And what the problem was with that date of install was that it would have stranded some
equipment in the town.
A lot of equipment.
Yes.
Right.
So we went back as an industry, and I was really proud of our industry.
All the contractors, all the distributors, the OEMs came together, and even some outside
groups and asked EPA to quickly amend that law.
So the law was final in October.
Right.
They amended it again, really, by Christmas, which is unheard of.
Yeah, it was amazing.
Right.
So now we've got a year sell through.
You can put new systems together for splits for a year.
As long as it was manufactured prior to 2025.
There is a little wrinkle.
Yeah.
EPA has been very diligent about saying we don't want to limit the useful life of someone's
existing HFC equipment.
So we can still manufacture indoor coils and components after the date.
But if we manufacture some of those after the prohibition date, in this case, 1-1-2025,
they have to be marked for service use only.
Right, as a component.
And one of those for service use only components, indoor, outdoor, cannot be put together in
a new system with a component built before that.
So that's a little bit of a wrinkle.
But the good news is we've got the industry, the channel now has a year to sell through
new systems.
Some of the things I heard about the component end of that.
So if I walk into a supplier in February of 2025 and I buy a condenser, a 410A as a component,
what's to stop technicians from installing these as new systems?
So some of the things that I've heard are, well, a lot of these may come dry charged
because of the scarcity of the HFCs.
The warranty would be a component warranty and not a new system warranty.
So instead of getting a five or a 10 year, you might get a one year, those sorts of...
So there's a lot of reasons to not go around the law and try and still install these as
new systems because there's going to be a lot of wrinkles moving forward.
Well, the least of which we talked at number one component of the AIM Act was the less
availability of 410A and 134A, right?
So the price, you know, we're down 40% of a baseline as of January 1st.
So that availability of HFCs like 410A, 134A is down 40%.
And you know what happens when the price, when the supply goes down, what happens to
the price?
The price goes up, right?
A lot of us are saying, well, I don't see it right now.
I walked into my supply.
Well, it's minus 10 outside.
So you're not going to see a huge demand for 410A right now, maybe in refrigeration.
However, once it hits 90 in Chicago, it'll be 120 in Texas and Arizona.
You're going to see demand spike and go through the roof.
And they're going to have to temper that to try and keep their supplies.
And you're going to see the price go up.
Well, and the obvious, the need to fill that gap, right, would be...
Reclamation.
The recovery of the dirty gas, right, is the prerequisite.
So we've been preaching this for a long time.
In reclamation, contractors, when they go to a job site and see this system is still charged,
I'm going to replace it, there's 410A in the line.
You have to stop seeing that as an inconvenience and start seeing it as a commodity, as a revenue
stream because there is money in recovering that 410A and getting it to a reclaimer.
They will buy it back, especially if it's good, clean 410A.
So if you're servicing multifamily or large systems where you have hundreds of pounds
of 410A, again, reclaiming that as a commodity to sell to the reclaimer is a revenue stream
for the contractors.
And it also ensures that we have quantity moving forward because the AMAC, the phase
down that Chris brought up, the 40% doesn't apply to reclaim.
If we bring in 100 million pounds of reclaim, we can put that 100 million pounds back on
the market.
That just means it's staying in the refrigerant economy.
It's not getting out.
It's not being released.
It's not having an environmental impact.
Yeah.
And here's the big difference between this transition and the last one we went through
in 2010.
We went from R22 to 410A.
There were, let's call them for all intents and purposes, drop-ins for R22.
There is no such thing.
There's no drop-in for 410A.
I think there's 17 SNAP approved replacements for R22.
There are zero SNAP approved replacements for 410A in any application at the moment.
Yeah, we as an OEM producer, we had to go through and approve those alternatives for
R22 for equipment that was still under warranty.
For 410A, there is no class A1 below 700 alternative.
Now I think people will point out, hey Chris, there's some stuff being advertised.
I saw it, yeah.
Right?
As a drop-in.
It's not SNAP approved.
It's not SNAP approved, but even if it were, it's not below the 700.
Right.
I believe it was like 900 or something.
Yeah, depending on which AR value, 900 to 1,000.
So it's still above that 700.
And then the other problem with that is none of the manufacturers have said, you can use
this in our equipment.
It hasn't been tested by the manufacturers.
Yeah, and of course as an OEM that uses other people's compressors, we would go right back
to those suppliers and say, hey, you're going to honor the warranty.
Right.
Right?
Which is what we did with the old, you know, we went to 22.
So the point is there's no get out of jail card here with drop-ins.
In 410.
And there's some other fluids that were transitioning for other sectors that have some options.
Right.
And refrigeration that are non-flammable and lower GWP.
But for the bulk, you know, residential like commercial, there's no-
And the comfort cooling sector especially.
There's no replacement.
So the only thing-
Other than reclaim is the key.
Right.
The only thing that can go into a 410A system is 410A.
And we've had some comments come up, well, 410A is a blend of two refrigerants, R32 and
125.
R25 is more of like a flame suppressant.
It's put in there to bring the classification down from 2L to A1.
Some folks say, well, if 50% of 410A is 32, can't I just put 32 in my 410 unit?
No.
Temperatures and pressures are close, right?
Yeah.
No.
No, you can't.
And when we did the research, when we first started looking at which fluid we were using,
which products, right, obviously we sell all the products.
We took some native 410A equipment, residential splits, some rooftops, pulled all the native
410A out, put 454B in some, put 32 in some.
One, you can't do that.
So that was-
It's a snap violation.
Right.
It's a snap violation.
And it's a UL violation as well.
60335-2-40 doesn't allow for mixing of those.
Because that fluid, you have to certify the equipment for which the fluid's being used.
But here's what happened, because of the pressure temperature differences, the compressors failed
in the 32.
The ratios are different, yeah.
Because of the oil viscosity.
Higher discharge, yeah.
Higher discharge.
Now, 32 is a good fluid.
454 is a good fluid when the equipment's designed for it.
Designed for it, right.
You can put it in spec.
So the other thing about this is these 410A units don't have any mitigation in place that
the systems coming out with 32 and 454B are required to have by 2-40.
You have to have mitigation to pick up on a leak, shut the system down, establish air
flow or ventilation.
That's right.
Our existing 410A systems don't have any of that.
So you're creating a very hazardous-
Because of the flammability difference.
Right, yeah.
So by trying to take a flammable refrigerant, a 2L mildly flammable refrigerant, and put
it into a system that was not designed to use it, you do create a hazardous situation
for your customer.
Right.
And when you look at the refrigerant detection systems, every 2L system, unless it's below
a certain threshold and depending on the fluid-
It's like 3.9 or four pounds, something like that, yeah.
And it varies a little whether it's 32 or 454B.
But if you're above that minimum threshold, they call it M1.
Right, M1.
Every application will be designed to accommodate an RDS, but not every application will require.
Right.
So let's take this building as an example, right?
She had a large rooftop that leaked out 10 pounds of 454B or 32.
Guess how much space here?
There's not enough concentration.
Yeah, you wouldn't even notice it.
Well, they wouldn't be able to build up to what we call the lower flammability limit.
So if you did the math between what they call the releasable charge and the space-
And the dispersal volume, right.
And RDS wouldn't be required.
Fuel, I mean, we need three things for combustion.
We need the fuel, we need an ignition source, and then we need air.
If we were to leak, like you said, 10 pounds in here, we would have way too much air and
not enough fuel.
And then we would still have to have some sort of competent ignition source, like a
cigarette lighter or a torch or something.
Right, right.
Static is not going to do it for these 2L refrigerants.
So they do have high LFLs, they do have high ignition energies.
They have a very low heat of combustion when compared to propane or butane, those sorts
of things.
So it's not the sky is falling that a lot of people are making it out to be.
We do need to realize that the 2L refrigerants and the threes and the A1 does not stand for
non-flammable.
It means no flame propagation under a specific set of circumstances.
410A is an A1 refrigerant.
But if you have a structure fire, a house fire, that 410A burns really good.
I've seen it.
Yeah, and I would encourage your listeners, you and Clifton have put together a nice video.
If you haven't seen, your listeners haven't seen the video, I encourage them to go watch
the video.
It's on the Osco YouTube page, yes.
And I believe you have it as well.
I linked it as well because we like the video so well.
It goes through A1, A2, A3.
A2L, A3, right.
It's a great video and I think it really demonstrates the differences between those flammability
classifications.
And there's a, again, there's a specific set of circumstances for any refrigerant to become
flammable.
As you mentioned, the 2Ls are way closer to the A1s than they are to the A3s, the propane
and the isobutane.
Not to say that we're not going to use those.
Those are going to be a big part of the equation moving forward.
Snap 26 bumped the limits for propane up, 350 and 500 for open and closed.
So we're going to see a lot more of that moving forward.
Yeah, I want to emphasize something on the A3s like R290 propane and so forth, isobutane.
In the US, our housing stock is predominantly air to air.
So we have refrigerant in the space.
Some of the other countries like Europe, they use air to water systems for a lot of their
residential.
And so their refrigerant stays outside and then they have a secondary loop.
Like call or something like that.
That goes in the home.
Like a mini chiller.
That's where you can apply an A3 like propane.
Right now, the 150 gram limit set in the standards will really inhibit an A3 from being used
in what we call a direct system like that.
Right.
But that's an indirect system.
That's an indirect system.
We can see maybe five or 10 pounds in an indirect system where the propane is completely contained
outside in the package.
And then we have a secondary fluid transferring the heat where the A3 never enters the space
as you mentioned.
We can see a lot larger charges in those.
And they're already out in Europe.
I've seen them.
I've talked to the manufacturers.
There's some that use five and six pounds of 290.
Again, in the primary loop and the secondary loop is a glycol based, non-toxic that transfers
the heat and they work just fine.
Yeah.
And the thing I'll point out, there are in conjunction every year with the expo, there's
the ASHRAE meetings.
There's committee work going on in ASHRAE 1515-2 to look at these indirect systems because
even though the propane, R290 or ammonia or whatever it might be is outside, there's still
going to be clearance and issues that you can't just put one of these outdoor units
anywhere.
Right.
So there's a leak, an egress on a rooftop.
I was part of the NFPA study for that that 15-2 is using.
And what they look at is are at the window wells where we have the covers, windows are
underground, stairwells going down, leaky window structures.
Again, a lot of homes have become negatively pressured and will suck in from the outside.
And again, we know that if it's not windy out, propane is heavier and will collect in
a low place until something comes along to either ignite it or move it.
So like you said, we're going to have to look at placement.
Where is it by a door or a window, under a deck?
So there will be requirements that say, listen, you have to find a space that's suitable for
this application.
Right.
It's not just a plug and play.
Right.
And I think one of the main points is we get asked a lot, well, when might the U.S. transition
to A3s?
And the precursor to that is the building codes.
And I should say the safety standards and then the building codes.
And you look at the cycle where it took us to update for 2Ls.
It's like a decade.
It was a decade.
A3s, if they were in a high probability system like we have today, I don't know that that
would ever happen.
At least it would be kept to small charges, right, small tonnages.
But the question really would be, do we transition to more of an air to water market like that
of Europe?
Right.
That's really where the question comes in.
So there are a lot of questions about what are we going to see moving forward?
And again, what slows the processes?
Like you said, we have to do the UL standards for design.
We have to do the ASHRAE standards for installation safety maintenance.
And then they feed into the building codes and get adopted by the states.
So it's a process that can take, like you mentioned, like a decade to get.
And it's taken us that long with the 2Ls.
When we were transitioning to 410A here in the US, Europe and then they were transitioning
to R32.
But our building codes were not so that we could use R32 in all of those applications.
So they took R32 and they put a flame suppressant in there until it became an A1 and that was
410A.
That's what 125 is.
But 125 is an extremely high GWP.
So 410A is on the chopping block.
That's right.
And then some of the other newer next-gen refrigerations that you and I were speaking
of earlier was CO2.
We're starting to see expanded markets for CO2, mostly commercial, industrial applications.
In those markets, it is a really good refrigerant.
With a GWP of one, it's the baseline for everything.
And then as we mentioned earlier, ammonia, again, is a 2L.
A lot of folks don't know that ammonia is a 2L refrigerant.
It is flammable.
And it's also toxic.
It just becomes toxic before it's flammable.
When you think ammonia, the first thing you think of is, oh my God, that stinks.
Because the toxicity is present first, it becomes acute, but it is also a 2L refrigerant.
So those of you working with ammonia already know about 2Ls.
You just may not have realized it.
Correct.
And it's a good refrigerant and any refrigerant has to be properly applied specific for the
application.
You know, how far down, if you want to call it down towards the residential smaller market,
will these naturals go?
And I would say, again, not one size fits all.
It's going to be sector by sector, different dates.
It's going to be a group of refrigerants that make up this next generation.
A2Ls like 32, 454B, A3s like isobutane and propane naturals like ammonia and CO2.
So moving forward in different sectors, we're going to see a lot of different next generation
refrigerants, which brings me to the training side of it.
We're going to start as technicians, as contractors, seeing refrigerants come into whatever sector
we're working in that we haven't used before, that we may not be familiar with.
And they're going to be different from the refrigerants that we've been using.
It's not your father's refrigerant, as they say.
All right?
So we're talking about training and what should we do?
We take somebody that's working with 134A systems or let's just use 134A and say, listen,
you're going to be using CO2 now.
All right, well, that's a whole different skill set right there as far as recovery,
gauges, installation, maintenance, detectors, all these things.
There's a lot to learn there.
We can't just assume that this person is going to just, I'll go on Google and I will look
up CO2.
And, you know, after some time in the bathroom, on the toilet reading myself, I know how to
use CO2.
I'm not going to be confident that that's going to work.
We're going to have to have some sort of a, something established, a training program
that says, listen, if you're working with these, here's the information.
And you got to, as I say, Google responsibly.
All right?
When you Google, the first one you see is the guy that paid to be the first one you
see.
It may not be the best one you see.
Yeah, it's going to, some of these pressures and temperatures are going to look very different.
And that's why the training is very important.
We're going to see different oils.
We're going to see different transportation.
Are you shipping it, you know, in bulk?
Are you putting it in your service vehicle?
Where are you storing it?
How are you storing it?
What is it next to?
There's going to be a lot of things that we're, as an industry, we're going to have to be
aware of.
And these things are happening fast.
These deadlines are fast approaching.
We just passed one, January 1, 2024, for the additional 30% reduction.
We got one coming up January 1, 2025.
And then we have markers all the way to 2028 knocking off different sectors with the technology
transition.
So we have a lot of education to do.
We have a lot of folks to train and we have a short time to do it.
Fortunately, there are a lot of people, a lot of organizations that have training available.
You have your OEMs, you have ACCA, ESCO, JCI, I mean, JCI has a training program.
So what I would tell you to do is listen, you have to go get this training.
This is important.
I mean, I was at the UL testing when they were burning the houses down and doing all
the flammability testing.
I've seen what it could look like and we don't want it to look like that.
So I would, again, I'm encouraging training.
It may become mandatory.
I think Europe is going that route.
In the future, they're going to require training on the naturals and the flammables moving
forward and that may be something we see here as well.
Yeah, I think ultimately it'll, you know, there'll be some changes to the requirements
on the licensing side.
But I would encourage folks not to wait until something's mandatory.
Right.
I would, yeah, because then the line's going to be long and it's too late.
We're going to start seeing this equipment, this 2L equipment this year.
Oh, in a few months.
Yeah, like some spring summer of this year, when you walk into the supply house, you're
going to see these refrigerant tanks, you're going to see these systems.
And when you go to pick it up, you're going to see that little flame thing on the side
and red can, you're like, wait, it says warning and that's not what I ordered.
Oh, but it is what you ordered.
It's just what it looks like now.
And you're going to have to prepare your customers to when you walk into there and they see that
flame and that warning, you better have an explanation ready for your customer.
Yeah, just stand back.
It'll explode.
You can't say that.
You never say the E word in the customer's home.
Yeah, I think, you know, education for the consumer is key.
It's so important because, you know, when the consumer first tears, what, my refrigerants
are flammable?
Yes.
You know, you need to be prepared for that.
And there's a lot of resources out there.
You guys have some.
We have some.
So, ACA has some, education has some, Hardy has some, right?
Hardy, ACA, you know, and that's something I think we don't want to be surprised with,
right?
Right.
So, like we mentioned, there's A3s in the refrigerator freezer in your house.
There's an A2L in your car.
A lot of people don't realize what that means.
Well, there's propane in your refrigerator.
No, I didn't buy any of this.
There's no propane in my fridge.
It came with the fridge.
It's inside the fridge.
There's an A2L in your car.
I don't know what that means.
It makes your AC work.
Good.
I don't know that it's an A2L and what an A2L is.
We as technicians that work in heat transfer thermodynamics, we know what A2L is.
We're going to know what A2L is, what a natural is, what GWP is.
These are all terms that we have to add to our vocabulary.
And then we're going to have to develop an explanation that we use to bring it down even
further to that customer level because the end user is also going to have to know what
this means.
Exactly.
One of the things we're encouraging through our channel partners is proactive outreach.
Right.
And with the phase down, if they've got older equipment, it's an opportunity to do an inspection.
That's an opportunity to do some communication.
It's an awesome opportunity.
They may want to bank some of the refrigerants of their equipment's not near the end of their
life.
Right.
And hold that at a lower price.
A life study.
Yeah.
So while there's regulation change, which is not always fun, it does create opportunities
for our channel partners.
It does.
And there was two main comments that we get when we're doing training.
One is, oh, it's propane based.
Okay.
It is not propane based.
None of these 2Ls are propane.
No hydrocarbons.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's start with that.
And the other one is, well, my customer's not asking for 2L refrigerants.
Well, when you bought a car, you didn't ask for a car with a 2L refrigerant.
And it just came that way.
Right.
That's how they come now.
All right.
These systems, that's how they're going to come now.
We're not going to have a menu to order.
Let me get that evaporator, that condenser.
It's not like that.
This is what the industry is transitioning to.
And just because your customers aren't asking for it doesn't mean you can't be on the proactive
side and say, listen, I'm doing a cleaning on your system this year, but I will let you
know we're near the end of the life cycle and here's what the future of this is going
to look like.
All right.
The refrigerants are going to be different.
There's a different set of regulations and things that govern the use of it.
We just want to make you aware of that.
Again, it doesn't hurt to inform the customer that change is coming.
At least they won't be shocked by it when they see that big sticker on the side that
says flammable.
What are you putting in my house?
Yeah.
And just understanding the basic kind of physics of why is it flammable?
Well, we want lower GWP.
Those substances will break down and when they break down, that means basically they're
more reactive.
So it's like a lot of things in the engineering world, there's trade-offs.
Outside air, right?
We want more outside air, but guess what?
It uses more energy to heat or cool that outside air rather than bringing it.
So this is no different.
It's a trade-off and everything's a balance when you design these products.
Right.
So for a lot of the folks that are asking, well, okay, what is GWP?
It stands for global warming potential and the baseline that we use is CO2, which has
a GWP of one.
So if I tell you that 410A has a GWP of 2,088, everyone's like, all right, what is 2,088?
What?
Dollars?
Cents?
So what that means is the ability to trap heat in the atmosphere that our 410A can trap
2,088 times as much heat as CO2 by itself.
All right.
That's exponentially, I mean, massive.
All right.
So when we talk about the GWP limits residential like commercial, the target as of now is 700
GWP and that knocks out almost everything we're using today.
Right.
So 410A, 130, 404A is like 3,900 something, 410A is 2,088.
So these are high GWP refrigerants.
They trap massive amounts of heat when compared to CO2.
When we talk about CO2, ammonia, propane, isobutane, these are like one, two, three,
even YF is like four or less, in some reports less than one.
So these are the next generation refrigerants that we're going to be looking at.
When we started, as you brought up the Montreal Protocol, it was the chlorine, the ozone depletion
potential and now we're at the GWP and again, we're moving these things down based on their
effect on the environment around us.
As you said, it's a trade off.
Yeah, it's a trade off.
And I think if you look at where we're headed, you've mentioned naturals and so forth, again,
it's going to be a sector by sector equipment type, if you want to say that by equipment
type going forward, there'll be different solutions.
And what that really means for your listeners, I think Jason, is they're going to really
have to get good at refrigerant management, understanding refrigerants, everything about
them, storage, service practice, right?
Oil, evacuation.
And that's just the day we live in.
But if you look at the other sectors, refrigeration applied, they've been doing that for years.
That's not new to those sectors.
So we are ultimately going to head that way and I would say it creates a lot of business
opportunities out there.
It could be a win-win.
If it's done right, yeah.
Done right with higher efficiency, well maintained equipment that's safe and reliable, just like
we have before.
It's just different.
So if you're a company contractor, equipment manufacturer, and you span a few of these
equipment types or sectors, if you will, if you do refrigeration, commercial, residential,
you're going to see a wide variety of refrigerants moving forward.
You might see CO2 in this application, propane in this application, YF, 1234YF here, R32
here.
Again, depending on the number, the types of equipment that you work on, what does your
company service, you're going to see a lot of, whereas right now we're dealing with HFCs.
It's an HFC in almost everything.
Well, moving forward, it's not going to be that way.
It's going to be a group of refrigerants that make up what we call the next generation of
refrigerants.
And then one is going to have something specific that you need to know about it, whether it's
high pressure, whether it's flammability or toxicity.
We're going to have to understand the nuances of each of these refrigerants moving forward.
Yeah.
One thing I want to say too about our equipment, generically applies to a lot of the OEMs.
As we evolve these designs, things like energy efficiency, we can't forget about that.
Pretty important.
And from a training perspective, if you look at some of our newer technologies, they're
using less and less refrigerant.
Right.
You know, it's a good thing, it's flammable.
But what it means is to charge that product accurately, your equipment has to be really
good.
So what I'm encouraging the contractors to do is to use this transition as an opportunity
to upgrade your training, upgrade your equipment.
So you can charge and I can tell you, our premium systems, particularly residential,
a few ounces of charge off makes a big difference in efficiency and performance.
So bringing that up, if you're using an analog gauge, it has a plus or minus of a certain,
like they call it a three, two, three gauge, 3%, 2%, 3%.
You can be off by 20 psi, which can equate to multiple degrees.
So if I specify a 10 degree superheat, you could be within five to seven degrees of that.
Some of this newer high end equipment specifies a superheat of 5.8 degrees.
All right.
Well, how are you going to do that?
You know, with an analog gauge and it's just, you know, weird thermistor temperature probe,
you're not going to get 5.8.
But as you said, just a few ounces and it's all of a sudden it's outside of its normal
operating parameters.
Right.
I mean, we go to great lengths to, you know, provide as much training and information we've
had to have that charge, you know, specifically specified.
But if it's not put into that level, you know, the days of plus or minus 10, 15.
Yeah, right.
That doesn't work.
You're not going to get optimal performance out of a particularly a high, you know, a
high efficiency high performance system.
Right.
I've seen systems here that were as we're walking around with a two hour refrigerants,
two and a half ton heat pump factory charged with like 2.5 pounds of refrigerant and a
full load amps are like 0.5.
Yeah.
All right.
I can't imagine a two and a half ton system in the field that draws 0.5.
I thought a charged with two and a half pounds of refrigerant.
All right.
But that's where we're at.
We're with inverters, C or two high efficiency, these fluids that we're talking about, better
thermal efficiencies, better circulation, more control.
And I'll mention, you know, this, this tying a few trends together with the transition
to more heat pumps and colder climates, getting that charge correct.
And really the key thing in cold climates is not overcharging.
Right.
It's super important to the reliability and performance of cold climate, you know, when
you're running a heat pump.
So, so you're going to charge it in the summertime when it's in cooling mode.
And if you don't do it just right, when the weather drops to 15, it's not going to heat
properly and then how are you going to, you're going to be out in the snow trying to charge
this heat pump properly.
Exactly.
So it's critical to do it when we're doing an installation.
When I say the word commission, we think of industrial or commercial applications, but
residential installations, you're going to, it's going to have to become a commissioning
thing where we're doing it properly the first time each time so that we can ensure operation
across a variety of temperature applications depending on what the weather is for specifically
heat pumps.
We all know it's expensive to revisit a job.
It is.
And so trying to do that right the first time requires the training, proper equipment, right,
to do that.
Right.
Tools, training.
Follow up call, get it done right.
You can't just walk in and do like for like anymore.
That's just not going to cut it.
We've seen some sessions here about, you know, home performance and sealing the home and
being able again, if you're taking out a gas furnace that has a, you know, discharge temperature,
say 120 degrees, you're not going to get that with a heat pump.
All right.
So you have to temper the homeowners' expectations.
Listen, this is going to operate a little different from your gas furnace.
Yeah.
All right.
I mean, you're going to see maybe 90, 95 degrees coming out of there, not the 120 or 130 that
you're used to because they're going to call and say, listen, it's blowing cold air.
Well, it's not cold.
I mean, it's 95 degrees.
You know what I mean?
It might feel a little colder, but it's not really cold.
It's heating the house.
That's your body temperature is 98.
Right.
So it feels cool to you, but it is heating the home.
Mark my words.
So we've seen the energy efficiency take off the sear too, depending on what climate zone
you live in.
We've now seen the transition to next gen lower GWP refrigerants.
Some are natural.
Some are flammable.
There's a lot of change in the industry.
There's a lot of change with equipment.
And we're going to, again, moving forward, we're going to be as good as our training
and our tools.
We can't just do the same old, same old like my dad did.
All right.
We're going to have to take that next step and be better than that.
Well, as you know, a lot of the training is now, there's a lot more electronics, right?
Right.
Not to say that pressure and temperature don't matter in analog, but-
Super heat is still super heat though.
All your troubleshooting, diagnostics, communication protocols, right?
Right.
Thermostats, automation.
Inverters.
Digitalization, right?
All that.
The training is just paramount to happen these days.
So we did see things like this coming.
Other industries, their technology upgraded faster than ours.
We stood still for quite a long time and now all of a sudden the dam has broken.
Everything is coming out.
We're seeing all of these new technologies, these new refrigerants, all of these new tools,
all of this training.
It's an exciting time definitely to be involved in this.
And again, this is going to span to say 2050 where we're going to, we're installing billions
of units.
I mean, there's going to be work forever.
All right.
This is a very good opportunity again, at the time that we're in, to be in this trade.
You just need to arm yourself, be prepared to work with the tools and the equipment and
the refrigerants and the things that we're seeing today.
Yep.
We put in 9 million new residential commercial units last year.
9 million.
9 million just new, right?
Right.
It could be new construction or replacement, but that's a big number and it's probably
going to grow.
Huge number.
Yeah.
So our industry is going to stay essential even through COVID.
Right.
Our future ones will continue to work and we're going to have the kind of challenges.
I would say they're good challenges.
They are.
With volume of work, you know, opportunity.
Especially if they, as they say, the planet's warming, cooling is going to become more important
than ever right now.
Energy efficiency is-
Right.
Energy.
We can't keep generating massive amounts of heat to cool the house and then release that
heat into the, and not think we're going to create a problem.
We're going to have to have these energy efficient systems and fluids in order to accomplish
this.
Correct.
That's right.
So moving from, again, like you mentioned, next generation refrigerants, we're seeing
the push for cold climate heat pumps.
In areas like Chicago, there's a lot of folks in Chicago right now installing heat pumps.
It was minus 35 if you were here last week and the heat pumps were running just fine.
They were able to keep up.
So it can be done, but it has to be done right.
We have to have the training.
We have to have the tools.
We have to have the knowledge of what to anticipate.
And again, that comes from sitting down and taking a class, learning how to do this from
your OEM, from different organizations.
There's a lot of training out there, but it can be done.
It's not something that's impossible or just won't work just because you don't want it
to work.
There's a, all my saying on this for a lot of folks is how can you install a heat pump
in Chicago?
Listen, a heat pump is an AC unit that just got curious.
I hadn't heard that, Jason.
Yeah, that's my little saying.
And so for the record, I will say that all of this transition that we're experiencing,
Chris and I had nothing to do with this.
All right.
We were witness witnesses.
We were there.
We heard what was going on and we're bringing that word to you.
We didn't sign anything.
We didn't pass anything or vote on anything.
All right.
This came from the upper levels and came down to us and we're passing it on to you.
We're kind of like a go between, if you will, between the legalese where it's 1600 pages
of legal documents and then we turn it into an hour long podcast to let you know what
all that says.
Yeah.
I think for us, we just want our channel partners to be successful, right?
We want to have a good quality product delivered on time, operate the consumers happy and that
takes training.
It does.
As an OEM, you can't put your equipment out there and then someone take it and put it
in and it doesn't perform.
And then the homeowner blames your equipment and not the tech.
That unit stinks.
We can't don't use that unit.
We can't have that.
The OEMs have still a long time building up this reputation for making quality, reliable,
efficient equipment and in order for that equipment to be quality, reliable, efficient,
the installing technician and maintenance technician are going to have to have that
training in order to keep it that way.
All right.
We can't have mad homeowners and mad OEMs because things aren't being done properly.
It's going to tear the industry apart.
So we have to bring everybody together and do the training and the updates, if you will,
to make sure that this is being done properly so that everybody's happy.
Happy consumers is what we want.
And technicians too.
So I think that's about all the time.
Are there any questions before we call it a day?
Are we good?
I think we covered everything in the next gens, right?
So everything from flammable to natural, A1, A2L, A3 naturals, we're going to see them
all moving forward.
You'll see a lot of it this spring, this summer and the equipment that's coming out and over
the next three years.
And again, depending on what you service and what you work on, you might see a huge library
of refrigerants from industrial, commercial to residential to packages.
You're going to see a wide variety of refrigerants moving forward.
I just finished closing by saying it's urgent, some urgency because the market's about to
really here in just a few months, really start seeing the influx of these new refrigerants,
particularly residential.
Right.
And the dates that we had spoke of, they're all coming.
One just passed, January 1, 2024, another one January 1, 2025, and then a whole series
of them between 2025 and 2028 for all of the different pieces of equipment.
So the dominoes are going to start falling and they're going to start falling really
fast.
The first one already fell.
Yeah.
So hurry on the training.
Don't wait till the last minute or you're going to get stuck in the cold.
Don't wait till it shows up in your warehouse.
Yeah.
Until it's in the back of the truck and you're sitting at the customer's home trying to read
the installation manual, figure out how to install this.
Well, page three says we got to do the, hey, get the thing out of the truck, the thing
on page three.
That's not going to work.
Yeah.
And what we're encouraging, Jason, is that for the first time an install occurs in your
region, make sure you reach out to the local AHJ for the first one to make them familiar.
That way there's no surprises.
There's some resources online that were rolled out this week with HRI.
We had a new map.
The new map that says by state what codes enable these larger charges of A2Ls.
Brand new.
What was pointed out was some of it was done legislatively, which means that the code bodies
may not know to what standard or to what I should be installing this to.
Legally, can I do it?
Yes.
But for an AHJ, they may not know what am I referencing for this installation.
So there's some communication between the installer and the inspector there to say,
let me help you out here.
If you have the training, you'll know exactly what standards you're supposed to be referring
to.
You as the contractor and you can...
And then it's always good to make friends with the inspector.
All right.
Bring him a coffee and say, listen, here's the standards.
I'm installing this unit.
Like you said, the first few, once they get the hang of it, then it'll be a breeze, hopefully,
being done properly.
Yeah.
And I think it's important in those states and the AHJs know which one they are.
Their building cycles on adopting these national monocodes can be quite long.
Yes.
It's an exhausting process.
So in those cases where the state update cycle didn't align with the EPA dates, knowing what
legislation enabled that is even more important.
That's why some of these AHJs just may not be aware of it.
It's not the right time.
Right.
And it was done way above their head and without their knowledge.
Correct.
So there's a...
Like he said, there's a lot of resources out there.
The AHRI website, the ESCA website, the JCI website.
There is a lot of training that is available.
There's a lot of resources.
If you walk in your travels today at the show, pay attention to what's in some of them heat
pumps and some of them commercial industrial AC.
You're going to see a lot of 2Ls, a lot of Naturals, a lot of these next gen refrigerants.
Yeah.
I'd encourage you don't embrace it.
It's coming.
Right.
Be ready for it.
And it's a great business opportunity.
It is.
The saying is the change train is coming through and you have two options.
You can stand in front of it and get run over or you can get on it.
All right.
It's more comfortable on the train than in front of the train.
Train.
All right.
We're going to call our show.
We'll thank everyone for sitting down and listening and we'll be here throughout the
day.
If you want to stop by our booths, JCI, ESCO and say hi.
Thank you, Jason.
Thank you.
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