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Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.

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This episode recorded live at the 2024 AHR Expo.

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Learn more about Johnson Controls at johnsoncontrols.com.

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Good morning everyone.

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I am here with Chris Forth from JCI.

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Chris, you want to take a moment introduce yourself to everybody what you do?

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Jason, Chris Forth, Johnson Controls have been in the industry 30 plus years.

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Engineering, product management, now full-time regulatory focus.

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So you have multiple different layers in your company, different industrial, commercial, residential.

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You do a lot of different things and you handle the government affairs side for all of those departments?

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Is that correct?

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I share some of it.

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We do have a full-time dedicated government affairs team that spends a lot more time on the hill and stuff.

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But I do a lot of call it support work specifically when it comes to refrigerants and the HVAC products

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where I have some knowledge with my engineering background.

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So I do spend a lot of time in the DC area, but I also spend time in the state area in Canada sometimes as well as you know.

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Yep.

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Well that's good.

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Today we're going to talk about refrigerants and specifically some of the next generation refrigerants.

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And why we ended up with the refrigerants that we're transitioning to now.

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Why did we leave behind 410A or 404A or 134A?

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Why are we moving to these next generation refrigerants like R32, 454B, CO2, ammonia, propane?

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What was the catalyst that drove us to this point?

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Yeah Jason, a lot of it is a policy at both the global level and at the domestic level.

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And you'll know many countries are there trying to address the climate issues associated with these refrigerants.

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And those issues have led to policy changes.

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I think we've all heard the Montreal Protocol.

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Right.

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That was the first global agreement to deal with what we call ozone depletion.

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Now that's evolved to global warming potential.

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And now there are laws in multiple countries, Europe, the US, Canada and so forth, that are

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really mandating a transition to lower GWP.

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We already went through this with ozone.

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And now we're addressing the GWP side of things.

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Okay, so originally we were getting rid of refrigerants because they were ozone depleting.

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And now we're phasing out specific refrigerants because of the global warming potential of those refrigerants.

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So the legislation is not specifying you must use this refrigerant.

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They just give us a target and then it's up to the industry to say, well to meet this

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target we can use this or this or this.

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Yeah, to get specific, I'm going to talk to the US here, on the AIM Act, there's the bulk

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phase down.

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So the American Innovation and Manufacturing Act has three parts.

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There's bulk phase down, I should emphasize bulk virgin refrigerant phase down.

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And the little giveaway here is that it doesn't include reclaim.

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Reclamation, right.

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That's where our key is right there.

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And then the second part of the AIM is what I think a lot of people understand is the

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technology, the equipment prohibitions, EPA calls those the technology transition.

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So air conditioning, a certain GWP level at a certain date, refrigeration, and even automotive

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and phones are in scope.

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And then the third part that is still pending, hasn't been finalized yet, is the refrigerant

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management.

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That has to do with the reclaim, recovery, section 608 and that sort of thing.

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And some possible training requirements as well.

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That's something that the EPA was looking into.

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I did hear at a few of the podcasts this week that Europe is actually transitioning to a

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required training model for these next generation refrigerants.

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That's something that may make its way over here as well.

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Right.

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EPA is asking for comment on that right now.

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They've asked for it.

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The comments were actually due...

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There was quite a few submitted.

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Yeah, there were a lot of comments submitted on that.

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So I think something will be done ultimately.

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I don't know why.

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Certainly if you look to other countries like Europe, they're moving that direction.

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I think from a safety perspective, quality of work, having that training and licensing

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requirements is a good thing.

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It is.

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I mean, if you look at say a chef or a hairstylist, they have to have certification, they have

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to have recertification.

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There's a lot of training that they have to do in order to be able to...

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And we're dealing with things that are a lot more dangerous that put other people in harm's

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way.

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The training things should just be a no-brainer at that point.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And we're dealing with some equipment that is...

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It's commercial equipment, right?

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As far as commercial...

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It could be a residential piece of equipment, but it's got voltage moving parts.

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So having that training, understanding how refrigerants behave, how to store them...

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How to handle them, right?

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How to handle them is all important.

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So these next generation of refrigerants, these two Ls, what is it specifically that

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we need people to know that perhaps we were working with 22 or 410 or 134 and now all

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of a sudden we're, let's say, 454B or R32, what's the big deal?

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What is it that's scaring people?

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Yeah.

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Let me first start out with what those two L refrigerants, as you refer to, are not.

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They are not hydrocarbons.

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Thank you so much.

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I needed to...

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Listen, if everybody could tell 10 other people what he just said, and then those 10 people

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tell 10 more people, I think we'll be okay.

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Yeah.

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And it's understandable with human nature, when you think of flammability, you think of

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something that would be wildly flammable.

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But these two Ls are not that at all.

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They're very close to the current flammability A1.

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The A's, the toxicity, the 1, 2, 2L, 3 are the flammability.

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They're very close to the class 1 on flammability.

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And in fact, if you look at the ASHRAE 34 flammability that assigns those, they were

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so close, literally within a few degrees of being the same class.

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But unfortunately, they are not, but the thing they are not, again, I want to emphasize,

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they're not hydrocarbons.

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Right.

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So things like static electricity won't set them all.

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Your power tools, your DC power tools, those things.

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Technicians don't have to wear anti-static clothes or grounding devices.

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None of that because of these refrigerants.

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Nothing like that.

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These refrigerants have a very high ignition energy requirement to ignite, much higher

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than say a propane, which static, something like the magnitude.

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It's close to five millijoules, right.

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Right, millijoules.

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So they're not that.

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And the other thing I'll point out is the refrigerant 32 and the blend component, because

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454B is a blend that has 32 and another well-known refrigerant, R1234YF, they've been around

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for a long time.

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Right, around us, right?

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Right.

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And now they're starting to come mainstream.

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We've had them in our cars.

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We've got A3s in our refrigerator at home.

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For 10 years.

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Right.

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And so it's been on the periphery, but now it is about to come into the mainstream here

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with all of these different, and different applications as well.

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Exactly.

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The thing I'd point out is that we used to have a specific refrigerant and it would have

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all of these uses.

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And as we move forward, we're going to see a lot of application specific, okay, for this

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application we're going to use this refrigerant.

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For this application we'll use this refrigerant.

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We're not going to see a one-size-fits-all solution for these units moving forward.

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Correct.

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And so the EPA's got, it's called sector, sector like AC, refrigeration, automotive,

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and they're going to become very, I'll call it custom.

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It would be great if there was one refrigerant.

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Right, yes.

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But as these GWP levels get lowered, we have to be very specific.

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And the EPA controls that with their SNAP listings.

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And so the delineation of the refrigerants will be very different by some sectors.

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Now some will be similar, right?

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But the big residential light commercial products, the big volume most people used to will be

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either R454B or R32.

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You can see a lot of those systems here at the show this week.

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There's a lot of manufacturers that have a 32 unit or a 454B unit here on display.

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Residential commercial, light commercial, heavy commercial, a lot of that stuff.

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We've got air-cooled chillers, very large tonnages that use 454.

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Even the components we're seeing, 290 compressors here, A3 compressors, 454B compressors.

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Intrinsically safe components at a lot of the electric booths.

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So I mean, this is not something that's new.

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This has been around for quite some time.

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That's right.

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It might be new to us because we haven't seen it before, but the technology and the ref...

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It's been out for quite some time.

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Yeah, I've encouraged people to go out and look if you've got a, like a window unit you

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might've bought a few years ago, even 10 years ago.

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We have one in a small space in one of our properties.

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And guess what?

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It's probably 10 years old.

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I don't know the exact date.

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Had R32 in it.

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Yeah.

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So I want to say it was 2014 or 2015, something like that, where it was allowed for use and

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importation.

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R32 in spot coolers and window units and things like that, sealed systems.

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So R32 has been down this road before, just on the outside of the main line, but it is

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now coming in.

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Right.

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And what we've had to do because of that different 2L designation is update all the building

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codes.

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And that's what's taking quite some time.

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It's not a...

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I mean, we have a lot of different building codes to the US.

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Not all states use the same code.

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They may use variations of the same code.

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So it does take some time to get everybody on the same page when it comes to something

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like that.

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Yeah.

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I've spent a lot of time and with our trade org, the Air Conditioning Heating Refrigeration

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Institute, they've been really at the forefront of this, but they have members like us that

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step in in certain states.

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The Speaker's Bureau, yeah.

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And I've done a few presentations with them for code officials and things, right.

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So people like Chris and I do go to other states and talk to code officials and things

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and say, listen, this is what's coming.

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This is what you can anticipate.

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You're going to have to update the building codes because pretty soon you're not going

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to be able to buy these units.

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And something that just recently published last year and is finalized this year is what

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you mentioned earlier, the technology transition rule.

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So what does that do for us?

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Yeah, that's the equipment prohibitions.

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And unfortunately, that rule was finalized back in late October of last year.

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It had a surprise for us for split systems.

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Right.

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Had to be installed by January 1st, 2025.

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Right.

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So what do I do with everything that's in my warehouse?

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Exactly.

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Now, the original law that's now been amended for this sector, the air conditioning sector,

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that covers residential and light commercial and heavy commercial, we thought we would

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get a year's sale through on indoor components.

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And the proposed rule, it was there.

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And that's what it was back in 2022.

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We thought we would get that.

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Now, industry asked for a simple date of manufacture.

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We said, look, if it's manufactured before that prohibition date, shouldn't be any restrictions.

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What EPA forecast they would do is we'll give you a year.

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What we got was zero.

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Right.

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We said the manufacturing date for a split for a new system had to be installed by 1-1-2025.

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And that's just not going to happen.

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Yeah.

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But here was the nuance.

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The nuance was you could still replace components, like a condenser, outdoor, or indoor cooler,

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in an existing system.

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And what the problem was with that date of install was that it would have stranded some

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equipment in the town.

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A lot of equipment.

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Yes.

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Right.

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So we went back as an industry, and I was really proud of our industry.

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All the contractors, all the distributors, the OEMs came together, and even some outside

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groups and asked EPA to quickly amend that law.

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So the law was final in October.

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Right.

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They amended it again, really, by Christmas, which is unheard of.

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Yeah, it was amazing.

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Right.

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Right.

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So now we've got a year sell through.

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You can put new systems together for splits for a year.

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As long as it was manufactured prior to 2025.

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There is a little wrinkle.

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Yeah.

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EPA has been very diligent about saying we don't want to limit the useful life of someone's

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existing HFC equipment.

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So we can still manufacture indoor coils and components after the date.

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But if we manufacture some of those after the prohibition date, in this case, 1-1-2025,

245
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,360
they have to be marked for service use only.

246
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,600
Right, as a component.

247
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,280
And one of those for service use only components, indoor, outdoor, cannot be put together in

248
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,480
a new system with a component built before that.

249
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,520
So that's a little bit of a wrinkle.

250
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,800
But the good news is we've got the industry, the channel now has a year to sell through

251
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:50,800
new systems.

252
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,880
Some of the things I heard about the component end of that.

253
00:12:53,880 --> 00:13:01,440
So if I walk into a supplier in February of 2025 and I buy a condenser, a 410A as a component,

254
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,360
what's to stop technicians from installing these as new systems?

255
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,000
So some of the things that I've heard are, well, a lot of these may come dry charged

256
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,820
because of the scarcity of the HFCs.

257
00:13:10,820 --> 00:13:14,280
The warranty would be a component warranty and not a new system warranty.

258
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,980
So instead of getting a five or a 10 year, you might get a one year, those sorts of...

259
00:13:17,980 --> 00:13:23,120
So there's a lot of reasons to not go around the law and try and still install these as

260
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,120
new systems because there's going to be a lot of wrinkles moving forward.

261
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,440
Well, the least of which we talked at number one component of the AIM Act was the less

262
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,840
availability of 410A and 134A, right?

263
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,800
So the price, you know, we're down 40% of a baseline as of January 1st.

264
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:45,540
So that availability of HFCs like 410A, 134A is down 40%.

265
00:13:45,540 --> 00:13:49,040
And you know what happens when the price, when the supply goes down, what happens to

266
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,040
the price?

267
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,040
The price goes up, right?

268
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,040
A lot of us are saying, well, I don't see it right now.

269
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,040
I walked into my supply.

270
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,800
Well, it's minus 10 outside.

271
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,920
So you're not going to see a huge demand for 410A right now, maybe in refrigeration.

272
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,720
However, once it hits 90 in Chicago, it'll be 120 in Texas and Arizona.

273
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,200
You're going to see demand spike and go through the roof.

274
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,080
And they're going to have to temper that to try and keep their supplies.

275
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,480
And you're going to see the price go up.

276
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,520
Well, and the obvious, the need to fill that gap, right, would be...

277
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:15,520
Reclamation.

278
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:16,520
Reclamation.

279
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,760
The recovery of the dirty gas, right, is the prerequisite.

280
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080
So we've been preaching this for a long time.

281
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:26,240
In reclamation, contractors, when they go to a job site and see this system is still charged,

282
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,040
I'm going to replace it, there's 410A in the line.

283
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,960
You have to stop seeing that as an inconvenience and start seeing it as a commodity, as a revenue

284
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:37,560
stream because there is money in recovering that 410A and getting it to a reclaimer.

285
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,160
They will buy it back, especially if it's good, clean 410A.

286
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,840
So if you're servicing multifamily or large systems where you have hundreds of pounds

287
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,580
of 410A, again, reclaiming that as a commodity to sell to the reclaimer is a revenue stream

288
00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:52,900
for the contractors.

289
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:57,040
And it also ensures that we have quantity moving forward because the AMAC, the phase

290
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,940
down that Chris brought up, the 40% doesn't apply to reclaim.

291
00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:04,760
If we bring in 100 million pounds of reclaim, we can put that 100 million pounds back on

292
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:05,760
the market.

293
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,680
That just means it's staying in the refrigerant economy.

294
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:10,680
It's not getting out.

295
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:11,680
It's not being released.

296
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:12,920
It's not having an environmental impact.

297
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:13,920
Yeah.

298
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,680
And here's the big difference between this transition and the last one we went through

299
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:18,720
in 2010.

300
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,600
We went from R22 to 410A.

301
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:27,020
There were, let's call them for all intents and purposes, drop-ins for R22.

302
00:15:27,020 --> 00:15:28,320
There is no such thing.

303
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,720
There's no drop-in for 410A.

304
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,200
I think there's 17 SNAP approved replacements for R22.

305
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,040
There are zero SNAP approved replacements for 410A in any application at the moment.

306
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:45,120
Yeah, we as an OEM producer, we had to go through and approve those alternatives for

307
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,920
R22 for equipment that was still under warranty.

308
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:54,040
For 410A, there is no class A1 below 700 alternative.

309
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,840
Now I think people will point out, hey Chris, there's some stuff being advertised.

310
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:58,840
I saw it, yeah.

311
00:15:58,840 --> 00:15:59,840
Right?

312
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:00,840
As a drop-in.

313
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:01,840
It's not SNAP approved.

314
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,040
It's not SNAP approved, but even if it were, it's not below the 700.

315
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:06,040
Right.

316
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,520
I believe it was like 900 or something.

317
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,000
Yeah, depending on which AR value, 900 to 1,000.

318
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,080
So it's still above that 700.

319
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,320
And then the other problem with that is none of the manufacturers have said, you can use

320
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:17,400
this in our equipment.

321
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,880
It hasn't been tested by the manufacturers.

322
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,080
Yeah, and of course as an OEM that uses other people's compressors, we would go right back

323
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,280
to those suppliers and say, hey, you're going to honor the warranty.

324
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,280
Right.

325
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:28,280
Right?

326
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,500
Which is what we did with the old, you know, we went to 22.

327
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:35,240
So the point is there's no get out of jail card here with drop-ins.

328
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,240
In 410.

329
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,240
In 410.

330
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,400
And there's some other fluids that were transitioning for other sectors that have some options.

331
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,400
Right.

332
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,560
And refrigeration that are non-flammable and lower GWP.

333
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,680
But for the bulk, you know, residential like commercial, there's no-

334
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,360
And the comfort cooling sector especially.

335
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:52,360
There's no replacement.

336
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,360
So the only thing-

337
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:54,360
Other than reclaim is the key.

338
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,360
Right.

339
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,120
The only thing that can go into a 410A system is 410A.

340
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:05,240
And we've had some comments come up, well, 410A is a blend of two refrigerants, R32 and

341
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,240
125.

342
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,480
R25 is more of like a flame suppressant.

343
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,280
It's put in there to bring the classification down from 2L to A1.

344
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:19,400
Some folks say, well, if 50% of 410A is 32, can't I just put 32 in my 410 unit?

345
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:20,400
No.

346
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,400
Temperatures and pressures are close, right?

347
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,400
Yeah.

348
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,400
No.

349
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:25,400
No, you can't.

350
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,840
And when we did the research, when we first started looking at which fluid we were using,

351
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,780
which products, right, obviously we sell all the products.

352
00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:40,840
We took some native 410A equipment, residential splits, some rooftops, pulled all the native

353
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:46,440
410A out, put 454B in some, put 32 in some.

354
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,200
One, you can't do that.

355
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,200
So that was-

356
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,200
It's a snap violation.

357
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,200
Right.

358
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,200
It's a snap violation.

359
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,560
And it's a UL violation as well.

360
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,280
60335-2-40 doesn't allow for mixing of those.

361
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,080
Because that fluid, you have to certify the equipment for which the fluid's being used.

362
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,480
But here's what happened, because of the pressure temperature differences, the compressors failed

363
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:07,480
in the 32.

364
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,480
The ratios are different, yeah.

365
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:09,480
Because of the oil viscosity.

366
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:10,480
Higher discharge, yeah.

367
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:11,480
Higher discharge.

368
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,080
Now, 32 is a good fluid.

369
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,880
454 is a good fluid when the equipment's designed for it.

370
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:16,880
Designed for it, right.

371
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,360
You can put it in spec.

372
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:23,240
So the other thing about this is these 410A units don't have any mitigation in place that

373
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:28,640
the systems coming out with 32 and 454B are required to have by 2-40.

374
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,200
You have to have mitigation to pick up on a leak, shut the system down, establish air

375
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,200
flow or ventilation.

376
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:34,200
That's right.

377
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,880
Our existing 410A systems don't have any of that.

378
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,360
So you're creating a very hazardous-

379
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:39,800
Because of the flammability difference.

380
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:40,800
Right, yeah.

381
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,280
So by trying to take a flammable refrigerant, a 2L mildly flammable refrigerant, and put

382
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,480
it into a system that was not designed to use it, you do create a hazardous situation

383
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:50,880
for your customer.

384
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:51,880
Right.

385
00:18:51,880 --> 00:19:00,600
And when you look at the refrigerant detection systems, every 2L system, unless it's below

386
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,640
a certain threshold and depending on the fluid-

387
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,480
It's like 3.9 or four pounds, something like that, yeah.

388
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,120
And it varies a little whether it's 32 or 454B.

389
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,800
But if you're above that minimum threshold, they call it M1.

390
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:12,800
Right, M1.

391
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:20,000
Every application will be designed to accommodate an RDS, but not every application will require.

392
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,000
Right.

393
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,320
So let's take this building as an example, right?

394
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:30,360
She had a large rooftop that leaked out 10 pounds of 454B or 32.

395
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:31,560
Guess how much space here?

396
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:32,560
There's not enough concentration.

397
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:33,880
Yeah, you wouldn't even notice it.

398
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,540
Well, they wouldn't be able to build up to what we call the lower flammability limit.

399
00:19:37,540 --> 00:19:41,840
So if you did the math between what they call the releasable charge and the space-

400
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:42,840
And the dispersal volume, right.

401
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,320
And RDS wouldn't be required.

402
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,760
Fuel, I mean, we need three things for combustion.

403
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,920
We need the fuel, we need an ignition source, and then we need air.

404
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,400
If we were to leak, like you said, 10 pounds in here, we would have way too much air and

405
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,480
not enough fuel.

406
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,200
And then we would still have to have some sort of competent ignition source, like a

407
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,360
cigarette lighter or a torch or something.

408
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:01,360
Right, right.

409
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:03,640
Static is not going to do it for these 2L refrigerants.

410
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,040
So they do have high LFLs, they do have high ignition energies.

411
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,360
They have a very low heat of combustion when compared to propane or butane, those sorts

412
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:12,360
of things.

413
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:17,040
So it's not the sky is falling that a lot of people are making it out to be.

414
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,880
We do need to realize that the 2L refrigerants and the threes and the A1 does not stand for

415
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,320
non-flammable.

416
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,160
It means no flame propagation under a specific set of circumstances.

417
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,240
410A is an A1 refrigerant.

418
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,760
But if you have a structure fire, a house fire, that 410A burns really good.

419
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:34,760
I've seen it.

420
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:40,280
Yeah, and I would encourage your listeners, you and Clifton have put together a nice video.

421
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,440
If you haven't seen, your listeners haven't seen the video, I encourage them to go watch

422
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,440
the video.

423
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:45,440
It's on the Osco YouTube page, yes.

424
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,440
And I believe you have it as well.

425
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,920
I linked it as well because we like the video so well.

426
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,040
It goes through A1, A2, A3.

427
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,240
A2L, A3, right.

428
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:59,360
It's a great video and I think it really demonstrates the differences between those flammability

429
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:00,360
classifications.

430
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:04,440
And there's a, again, there's a specific set of circumstances for any refrigerant to become

431
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,160
flammable.

432
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,720
As you mentioned, the 2Ls are way closer to the A1s than they are to the A3s, the propane

433
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,160
and the isobutane.

434
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,520
Not to say that we're not going to use those.

435
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,000
Those are going to be a big part of the equation moving forward.

436
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:21,440
Snap 26 bumped the limits for propane up, 350 and 500 for open and closed.

437
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,400
So we're going to see a lot more of that moving forward.

438
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:31,160
Yeah, I want to emphasize something on the A3s like R290 propane and so forth, isobutane.

439
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,000
In the US, our housing stock is predominantly air to air.

440
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,520
So we have refrigerant in the space.

441
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,560
Some of the other countries like Europe, they use air to water systems for a lot of their

442
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:41,560
residential.

443
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,200
And so their refrigerant stays outside and then they have a secondary loop.

444
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,400
Like call or something like that.

445
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,400
That goes in the home.

446
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,040
Like a mini chiller.

447
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,800
That's where you can apply an A3 like propane.

448
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:58,920
Right now, the 150 gram limit set in the standards will really inhibit an A3 from being used

449
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,720
in what we call a direct system like that.

450
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:01,720
Right.

451
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:02,720
But that's an indirect system.

452
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,720
That's an indirect system.

453
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,560
We can see maybe five or 10 pounds in an indirect system where the propane is completely contained

454
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,560
outside in the package.

455
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,720
And then we have a secondary fluid transferring the heat where the A3 never enters the space

456
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,240
as you mentioned.

457
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,400
We can see a lot larger charges in those.

458
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,400
And they're already out in Europe.

459
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:20,400
I've seen them.

460
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,400
I've talked to the manufacturers.

461
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,000
There's some that use five and six pounds of 290.

462
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,560
Again, in the primary loop and the secondary loop is a glycol based, non-toxic that transfers

463
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,480
the heat and they work just fine.

464
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,480
Yeah.

465
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,160
And the thing I'll point out, there are in conjunction every year with the expo, there's

466
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,960
the ASHRAE meetings.

467
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:48,080
There's committee work going on in ASHRAE 1515-2 to look at these indirect systems because

468
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,960
even though the propane, R290 or ammonia or whatever it might be is outside, there's still

469
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,560
going to be clearance and issues that you can't just put one of these outdoor units

470
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,560
anywhere.

471
00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:59,560
Right.

472
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,760
So there's a leak, an egress on a rooftop.

473
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,920
I was part of the NFPA study for that that 15-2 is using.

474
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,040
And what they look at is are at the window wells where we have the covers, windows are

475
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,960
underground, stairwells going down, leaky window structures.

476
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,720
Again, a lot of homes have become negatively pressured and will suck in from the outside.

477
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,640
And again, we know that if it's not windy out, propane is heavier and will collect in

478
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,000
a low place until something comes along to either ignite it or move it.

479
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,240
So like you said, we're going to have to look at placement.

480
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,080
Where is it by a door or a window, under a deck?

481
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,560
So there will be requirements that say, listen, you have to find a space that's suitable for

482
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,560
this application.

483
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,560
Right.

484
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,960
It's not just a plug and play.

485
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:38,960
Right.

486
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:45,360
And I think one of the main points is we get asked a lot, well, when might the U.S. transition

487
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:46,360
to A3s?

488
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,760
And the precursor to that is the building codes.

489
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,760
And I should say the safety standards and then the building codes.

490
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,120
And you look at the cycle where it took us to update for 2Ls.

491
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:56,120
It's like a decade.

492
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:57,720
It was a decade.

493
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,120
A3s, if they were in a high probability system like we have today, I don't know that that

494
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,320
would ever happen.

495
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,360
At least it would be kept to small charges, right, small tonnages.

496
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:13,040
But the question really would be, do we transition to more of an air to water market like that

497
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,040
of Europe?

498
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,040
Right.

499
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,040
That's really where the question comes in.

500
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,720
So there are a lot of questions about what are we going to see moving forward?

501
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,960
And again, what slows the processes?

502
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,500
Like you said, we have to do the UL standards for design.

503
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:28,880
We have to do the ASHRAE standards for installation safety maintenance.

504
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,840
And then they feed into the building codes and get adopted by the states.

505
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,080
So it's a process that can take, like you mentioned, like a decade to get.

506
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,160
And it's taken us that long with the 2Ls.

507
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,840
When we were transitioning to 410A here in the US, Europe and then they were transitioning

508
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:43,880
to R32.

509
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,400
But our building codes were not so that we could use R32 in all of those applications.

510
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,040
So they took R32 and they put a flame suppressant in there until it became an A1 and that was

511
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,040
410A.

512
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,040
That's what 125 is.

513
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,920
But 125 is an extremely high GWP.

514
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,720
So 410A is on the chopping block.

515
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,840
That's right.

516
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,320
And then some of the other newer next-gen refrigerations that you and I were speaking

517
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,160
of earlier was CO2.

518
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:16,200
We're starting to see expanded markets for CO2, mostly commercial, industrial applications.

519
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,580
In those markets, it is a really good refrigerant.

520
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:23,880
With a GWP of one, it's the baseline for everything.

521
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,320
And then as we mentioned earlier, ammonia, again, is a 2L.

522
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,600
A lot of folks don't know that ammonia is a 2L refrigerant.

523
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:30,600
It is flammable.

524
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,720
And it's also toxic.

525
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,520
It just becomes toxic before it's flammable.

526
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,980
When you think ammonia, the first thing you think of is, oh my God, that stinks.

527
00:25:38,980 --> 00:25:43,280
Because the toxicity is present first, it becomes acute, but it is also a 2L refrigerant.

528
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,960
So those of you working with ammonia already know about 2Ls.

529
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,080
You just may not have realized it.

530
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,080
Correct.

531
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:55,680
And it's a good refrigerant and any refrigerant has to be properly applied specific for the

532
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:56,680
application.

533
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:03,040
You know, how far down, if you want to call it down towards the residential smaller market,

534
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,040
will these naturals go?

535
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,680
And I would say, again, not one size fits all.

536
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,720
It's going to be sector by sector, different dates.

537
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,240
It's going to be a group of refrigerants that make up this next generation.

538
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:22,160
A2Ls like 32, 454B, A3s like isobutane and propane naturals like ammonia and CO2.

539
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:28,120
So moving forward in different sectors, we're going to see a lot of different next generation

540
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:31,680
refrigerants, which brings me to the training side of it.

541
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,040
We're going to start as technicians, as contractors, seeing refrigerants come into whatever sector

542
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,320
we're working in that we haven't used before, that we may not be familiar with.

543
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,800
And they're going to be different from the refrigerants that we've been using.

544
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,160
It's not your father's refrigerant, as they say.

545
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,460
All right?

546
00:26:47,460 --> 00:26:51,200
So we're talking about training and what should we do?

547
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:58,200
We take somebody that's working with 134A systems or let's just use 134A and say, listen,

548
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,480
you're going to be using CO2 now.

549
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,320
All right, well, that's a whole different skill set right there as far as recovery,

550
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,380
gauges, installation, maintenance, detectors, all these things.

551
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:09,380
There's a lot to learn there.

552
00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:14,760
We can't just assume that this person is going to just, I'll go on Google and I will look

553
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:15,760
up CO2.

554
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,960
And, you know, after some time in the bathroom, on the toilet reading myself, I know how to

555
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,960
use CO2.

556
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,080
I'm not going to be confident that that's going to work.

557
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,600
We're going to have to have some sort of a, something established, a training program

558
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,920
that says, listen, if you're working with these, here's the information.

559
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,960
And you got to, as I say, Google responsibly.

560
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:35,960
All right?

561
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,840
When you Google, the first one you see is the guy that paid to be the first one you

562
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:39,840
see.

563
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,360
It may not be the best one you see.

564
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:46,440
Yeah, it's going to, some of these pressures and temperatures are going to look very different.

565
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,800
And that's why the training is very important.

566
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,000
We're going to see different oils.

567
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,320
We're going to see different transportation.

568
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,320
Are you shipping it, you know, in bulk?

569
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,240
Are you putting it in your service vehicle?

570
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Where are you storing it?

571
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,320
How are you storing it?

572
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,320
What is it next to?

573
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,440
There's going to be a lot of things that we're, as an industry, we're going to have to be

574
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,440
aware of.

575
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,440
And these things are happening fast.

576
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,000
These deadlines are fast approaching.

577
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,080
We just passed one, January 1, 2024, for the additional 30% reduction.

578
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,400
We got one coming up January 1, 2025.

579
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,800
And then we have markers all the way to 2028 knocking off different sectors with the technology

580
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,800
transition.

581
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,440
So we have a lot of education to do.

582
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,640
We have a lot of folks to train and we have a short time to do it.

583
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,320
Fortunately, there are a lot of people, a lot of organizations that have training available.

584
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,960
You have your OEMs, you have ACCA, ESCO, JCI, I mean, JCI has a training program.

585
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,840
So what I would tell you to do is listen, you have to go get this training.

586
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,840
This is important.

587
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,360
I mean, I was at the UL testing when they were burning the houses down and doing all

588
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:48,880
the flammability testing.

589
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,960
I've seen what it could look like and we don't want it to look like that.

590
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,080
So I would, again, I'm encouraging training.

591
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,080
It may become mandatory.

592
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,280
I think Europe is going that route.

593
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,320
In the future, they're going to require training on the naturals and the flammables moving

594
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,760
forward and that may be something we see here as well.

595
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,160
Yeah, I think ultimately it'll, you know, there'll be some changes to the requirements

596
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,840
on the licensing side.

597
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640
But I would encourage folks not to wait until something's mandatory.

598
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:15,640
Right.

599
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,560
I would, yeah, because then the line's going to be long and it's too late.

600
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600
We're going to start seeing this equipment, this 2L equipment this year.

601
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,080
Oh, in a few months.

602
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,680
Yeah, like some spring summer of this year, when you walk into the supply house, you're

603
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,000
going to see these refrigerant tanks, you're going to see these systems.

604
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,960
And when you go to pick it up, you're going to see that little flame thing on the side

605
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,240
and red can, you're like, wait, it says warning and that's not what I ordered.

606
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,640
Oh, but it is what you ordered.

607
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,200
It's just what it looks like now.

608
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,480
And you're going to have to prepare your customers to when you walk into there and they see that

609
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,440
flame and that warning, you better have an explanation ready for your customer.

610
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,440
Yeah, just stand back.

611
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,440
It'll explode.

612
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:48,440
You can't say that.

613
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,640
You never say the E word in the customer's home.

614
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,640
Yeah, I think, you know, education for the consumer is key.

615
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,520
It's so important because, you know, when the consumer first tears, what, my refrigerants

616
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:00,520
are flammable?

617
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,520
Yes.

618
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,080
You know, you need to be prepared for that.

619
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,720
And there's a lot of resources out there.

620
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:05,720
You guys have some.

621
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,720
We have some.

622
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,160
So, ACA has some, education has some, Hardy has some, right?

623
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,480
Hardy, ACA, you know, and that's something I think we don't want to be surprised with,

624
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:17,480
right?

625
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,480
Right.

626
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,120
So, like we mentioned, there's A3s in the refrigerator freezer in your house.

627
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,680
There's an A2L in your car.

628
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,640
A lot of people don't realize what that means.

629
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,240
Well, there's propane in your refrigerator.

630
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,440
No, I didn't buy any of this.

631
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,800
There's no propane in my fridge.

632
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,800
It came with the fridge.

633
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,080
It's inside the fridge.

634
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,760
There's an A2L in your car.

635
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:33,760
I don't know what that means.

636
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:34,760
It makes your AC work.

637
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:35,760
Good.

638
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,800
I don't know that it's an A2L and what an A2L is.

639
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,840
We as technicians that work in heat transfer thermodynamics, we know what A2L is.

640
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,160
We're going to know what A2L is, what a natural is, what GWP is.

641
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,120
These are all terms that we have to add to our vocabulary.

642
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,520
And then we're going to have to develop an explanation that we use to bring it down even

643
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,640
further to that customer level because the end user is also going to have to know what

644
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,640
this means.

645
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,640
Exactly.

646
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,280
One of the things we're encouraging through our channel partners is proactive outreach.

647
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,280
Right.

648
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:11,760
And with the phase down, if they've got older equipment, it's an opportunity to do an inspection.

649
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,400
That's an opportunity to do some communication.

650
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,400
It's an awesome opportunity.

651
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,400
They may want to bank some of the refrigerants of their equipment's not near the end of their

652
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,400
life.

653
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,400
Right.

654
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:23,400
Right.

655
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:24,400
And hold that at a lower price.

656
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,400
A life study.

657
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,400
Yeah.

658
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,320
So while there's regulation change, which is not always fun, it does create opportunities

659
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,320
for our channel partners.

660
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,320
It does.

661
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:37,800
And there was two main comments that we get when we're doing training.

662
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,720
One is, oh, it's propane based.

663
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:40,720
Okay.

664
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:41,720
It is not propane based.

665
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:42,720
None of these 2Ls are propane.

666
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:43,720
No hydrocarbons.

667
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,720
Yeah.

668
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:45,720
Okay.

669
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,720
Let's start with that.

670
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,560
And the other one is, well, my customer's not asking for 2L refrigerants.

671
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,800
Well, when you bought a car, you didn't ask for a car with a 2L refrigerant.

672
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:52,920
And it just came that way.

673
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:53,920
Right.

674
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:54,920
That's how they come now.

675
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,920
All right.

676
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:56,920
These systems, that's how they're going to come now.

677
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,400
We're not going to have a menu to order.

678
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,020
Let me get that evaporator, that condenser.

679
00:32:02,020 --> 00:32:03,020
It's not like that.

680
00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:06,200
This is what the industry is transitioning to.

681
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,560
And just because your customers aren't asking for it doesn't mean you can't be on the proactive

682
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,440
side and say, listen, I'm doing a cleaning on your system this year, but I will let you

683
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,040
know we're near the end of the life cycle and here's what the future of this is going

684
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,040
to look like.

685
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,040
All right.

686
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,040
The refrigerants are going to be different.

687
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,860
There's a different set of regulations and things that govern the use of it.

688
00:32:23,860 --> 00:32:25,480
We just want to make you aware of that.

689
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,240
Again, it doesn't hurt to inform the customer that change is coming.

690
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880
At least they won't be shocked by it when they see that big sticker on the side that

691
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,880
says flammable.

692
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,320
What are you putting in my house?

693
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:36,320
Yeah.

694
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,200
And just understanding the basic kind of physics of why is it flammable?

695
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,920
Well, we want lower GWP.

696
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,040
Those substances will break down and when they break down, that means basically they're

697
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,040
more reactive.

698
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,600
So it's like a lot of things in the engineering world, there's trade-offs.

699
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,600
Outside air, right?

700
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,480
We want more outside air, but guess what?

701
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,280
It uses more energy to heat or cool that outside air rather than bringing it.

702
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,840
So this is no different.

703
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,240
It's a trade-off and everything's a balance when you design these products.

704
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Right.

705
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,880
So for a lot of the folks that are asking, well, okay, what is GWP?

706
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,640
It stands for global warming potential and the baseline that we use is CO2, which has

707
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,560
a GWP of one.

708
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:26,200
So if I tell you that 410A has a GWP of 2,088, everyone's like, all right, what is 2,088?

709
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,200
What?

710
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,200
Dollars?

711
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,200
Cents?

712
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,680
So what that means is the ability to trap heat in the atmosphere that our 410A can trap

713
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:39,120
2,088 times as much heat as CO2 by itself.

714
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,160
All right.

715
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,800
That's exponentially, I mean, massive.

716
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,880
All right.

717
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,120
So when we talk about the GWP limits residential like commercial, the target as of now is 700

718
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,200
GWP and that knocks out almost everything we're using today.

719
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:53,200
Right.

720
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:59,480
So 410A, 130, 404A is like 3,900 something, 410A is 2,088.

721
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000
So these are high GWP refrigerants.

722
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,840
They trap massive amounts of heat when compared to CO2.

723
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:11,160
When we talk about CO2, ammonia, propane, isobutane, these are like one, two, three,

724
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,360
even YF is like four or less, in some reports less than one.

725
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,160
So these are the next generation refrigerants that we're going to be looking at.

726
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,960
When we started, as you brought up the Montreal Protocol, it was the chlorine, the ozone depletion

727
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:31,840
potential and now we're at the GWP and again, we're moving these things down based on their

728
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,360
effect on the environment around us.

729
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,880
As you said, it's a trade off.

730
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,880
Yeah, it's a trade off.

731
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,000
And I think if you look at where we're headed, you've mentioned naturals and so forth, again,

732
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,640
it's going to be a sector by sector equipment type, if you want to say that by equipment

733
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,640
type going forward, there'll be different solutions.

734
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,200
And what that really means for your listeners, I think Jason, is they're going to really

735
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,040
have to get good at refrigerant management, understanding refrigerants, everything about

736
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,560
them, storage, service practice, right?

737
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,040
Oil, evacuation.

738
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,520
And that's just the day we live in.

739
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,760
But if you look at the other sectors, refrigeration applied, they've been doing that for years.

740
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,440
That's not new to those sectors.

741
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,680
So we are ultimately going to head that way and I would say it creates a lot of business

742
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,800
opportunities out there.

743
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:20,800
It could be a win-win.

744
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,320
If it's done right, yeah.

745
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,120
Done right with higher efficiency, well maintained equipment that's safe and reliable, just like

746
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,480
we have before.

747
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,800
It's just different.

748
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,400
So if you're a company contractor, equipment manufacturer, and you span a few of these

749
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,640
equipment types or sectors, if you will, if you do refrigeration, commercial, residential,

750
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,400
you're going to see a wide variety of refrigerants moving forward.

751
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:50,000
You might see CO2 in this application, propane in this application, YF, 1234YF here, R32

752
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,000
here.

753
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,600
Again, depending on the number, the types of equipment that you work on, what does your

754
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,480
company service, you're going to see a lot of, whereas right now we're dealing with HFCs.

755
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,960
It's an HFC in almost everything.

756
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,200
Well, moving forward, it's not going to be that way.

757
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,060
It's going to be a group of refrigerants that make up what we call the next generation of

758
00:36:07,060 --> 00:36:08,060
refrigerants.

759
00:36:08,060 --> 00:36:11,440
And then one is going to have something specific that you need to know about it, whether it's

760
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,000
high pressure, whether it's flammability or toxicity.

761
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,280
We're going to have to understand the nuances of each of these refrigerants moving forward.

762
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:21,280
Yeah.

763
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:27,880
One thing I want to say too about our equipment, generically applies to a lot of the OEMs.

764
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,200
As we evolve these designs, things like energy efficiency, we can't forget about that.

765
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,460
Pretty important.

766
00:36:34,460 --> 00:36:38,400
And from a training perspective, if you look at some of our newer technologies, they're

767
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,800
using less and less refrigerant.

768
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,800
Right.

769
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,520
You know, it's a good thing, it's flammable.

770
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:50,360
But what it means is to charge that product accurately, your equipment has to be really

771
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,360
good.

772
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,960
So what I'm encouraging the contractors to do is to use this transition as an opportunity

773
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,320
to upgrade your training, upgrade your equipment.

774
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,640
So you can charge and I can tell you, our premium systems, particularly residential,

775
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,520
a few ounces of charge off makes a big difference in efficiency and performance.

776
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,440
So bringing that up, if you're using an analog gauge, it has a plus or minus of a certain,

777
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,720
like they call it a three, two, three gauge, 3%, 2%, 3%.

778
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,700
You can be off by 20 psi, which can equate to multiple degrees.

779
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:30,180
So if I specify a 10 degree superheat, you could be within five to seven degrees of that.

780
00:37:30,180 --> 00:37:34,120
Some of this newer high end equipment specifies a superheat of 5.8 degrees.

781
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,120
All right.

782
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,280
Well, how are you going to do that?

783
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,600
You know, with an analog gauge and it's just, you know, weird thermistor temperature probe,

784
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,080
you're not going to get 5.8.

785
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,520
But as you said, just a few ounces and it's all of a sudden it's outside of its normal

786
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,520
operating parameters.

787
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,520
Right.

788
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:55,000
I mean, we go to great lengths to, you know, provide as much training and information we've

789
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,400
had to have that charge, you know, specifically specified.

790
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,480
But if it's not put into that level, you know, the days of plus or minus 10, 15.

791
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,920
Yeah, right.

792
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:06,920
That doesn't work.

793
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,240
You're not going to get optimal performance out of a particularly a high, you know, a

794
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:12,080
high efficiency high performance system.

795
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,080
Right.

796
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,040
I've seen systems here that were as we're walking around with a two hour refrigerants,

797
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,520
two and a half ton heat pump factory charged with like 2.5 pounds of refrigerant and a

798
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,320
full load amps are like 0.5.

799
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,320
Yeah.

800
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,320
All right.

801
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,120
I can't imagine a two and a half ton system in the field that draws 0.5.

802
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,160
I thought a charged with two and a half pounds of refrigerant.

803
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,160
All right.

804
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,160
But that's where we're at.

805
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,440
We're with inverters, C or two high efficiency, these fluids that we're talking about, better

806
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,440
thermal efficiencies, better circulation, more control.

807
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,500
And I'll mention, you know, this, this tying a few trends together with the transition

808
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:51,120
to more heat pumps and colder climates, getting that charge correct.

809
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,960
And really the key thing in cold climates is not overcharging.

810
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:54,960
Right.

811
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,400
It's super important to the reliability and performance of cold climate, you know, when

812
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,400
you're running a heat pump.

813
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,800
So, so you're going to charge it in the summertime when it's in cooling mode.

814
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,080
And if you don't do it just right, when the weather drops to 15, it's not going to heat

815
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,440
properly and then how are you going to, you're going to be out in the snow trying to charge

816
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:12,680
this heat pump properly.

817
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:13,680
Exactly.

818
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,240
So it's critical to do it when we're doing an installation.

819
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:21,920
When I say the word commission, we think of industrial or commercial applications, but

820
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,000
residential installations, you're going to, it's going to have to become a commissioning

821
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,000
thing where we're doing it properly the first time each time so that we can ensure operation

822
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,080
across a variety of temperature applications depending on what the weather is for specifically

823
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,080
heat pumps.

824
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,680
We all know it's expensive to revisit a job.

825
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:39,680
It is.

826
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,440
And so trying to do that right the first time requires the training, proper equipment, right,

827
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:45,440
to do that.

828
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:46,440
Right.

829
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:47,440
Tools, training.

830
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:48,440
Follow up call, get it done right.

831
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,800
You can't just walk in and do like for like anymore.

832
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,120
That's just not going to cut it.

833
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,320
We've seen some sessions here about, you know, home performance and sealing the home and

834
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:04,320
being able again, if you're taking out a gas furnace that has a, you know, discharge temperature,

835
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,640
say 120 degrees, you're not going to get that with a heat pump.

836
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:08,640
All right.

837
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:09,960
So you have to temper the homeowners' expectations.

838
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,920
Listen, this is going to operate a little different from your gas furnace.

839
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:13,920
Yeah.

840
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:14,920
All right.

841
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,920
I mean, you're going to see maybe 90, 95 degrees coming out of there, not the 120 or 130 that

842
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,400
you're used to because they're going to call and say, listen, it's blowing cold air.

843
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,400
Well, it's not cold.

844
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,400
I mean, it's 95 degrees.

845
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:25,400
You know what I mean?

846
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,400
It might feel a little colder, but it's not really cold.

847
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,400
It's heating the house.

848
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,400
That's your body temperature is 98.

849
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:31,400
Right.

850
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,680
So it feels cool to you, but it is heating the home.

851
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,120
Mark my words.

852
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:40,440
So we've seen the energy efficiency take off the sear too, depending on what climate zone

853
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:41,440
you live in.

854
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,620
We've now seen the transition to next gen lower GWP refrigerants.

855
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:46,620
Some are natural.

856
00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:48,520
Some are flammable.

857
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,240
There's a lot of change in the industry.

858
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,480
There's a lot of change with equipment.

859
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,640
And we're going to, again, moving forward, we're going to be as good as our training

860
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,640
and our tools.

861
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,880
We can't just do the same old, same old like my dad did.

862
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:01,120
All right.

863
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,640
We're going to have to take that next step and be better than that.

864
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,560
Well, as you know, a lot of the training is now, there's a lot more electronics, right?

865
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,560
Right.

866
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,680
Not to say that pressure and temperature don't matter in analog, but-

867
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,440
Super heat is still super heat though.

868
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,120
All your troubleshooting, diagnostics, communication protocols, right?

869
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:21,120
Right.

870
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:22,120
Thermostats, automation.

871
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,120
Inverters.

872
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,120
Digitalization, right?

873
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,120
All that.

874
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,240
The training is just paramount to happen these days.

875
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:31,720
So we did see things like this coming.

876
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:36,460
Other industries, their technology upgraded faster than ours.

877
00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:40,760
We stood still for quite a long time and now all of a sudden the dam has broken.

878
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:41,760
Everything is coming out.

879
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,280
We're seeing all of these new technologies, these new refrigerants, all of these new tools,

880
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,680
all of this training.

881
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,040
It's an exciting time definitely to be involved in this.

882
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,280
And again, this is going to span to say 2050 where we're going to, we're installing billions

883
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,280
of units.

884
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:56,760
I mean, there's going to be work forever.

885
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,760
All right.

886
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:03,240
This is a very good opportunity again, at the time that we're in, to be in this trade.

887
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:08,480
You just need to arm yourself, be prepared to work with the tools and the equipment and

888
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,760
the refrigerants and the things that we're seeing today.

889
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:11,760
Yep.

890
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,160
We put in 9 million new residential commercial units last year.

891
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,160
9 million.

892
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,920
9 million just new, right?

893
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:19,920
Right.

894
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,360
It could be new construction or replacement, but that's a big number and it's probably

895
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:24,360
going to grow.

896
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:25,360
Huge number.

897
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,360
Yeah.

898
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,600
So our industry is going to stay essential even through COVID.

899
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:29,600
Right.

900
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:30,600
Right.

901
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,320
Our future ones will continue to work and we're going to have the kind of challenges.

902
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:35,320
I would say they're good challenges.

903
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:36,320
They are.

904
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,760
With volume of work, you know, opportunity.

905
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,280
Especially if they, as they say, the planet's warming, cooling is going to become more important

906
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,280
than ever right now.

907
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:45,280
Energy efficiency is-

908
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:46,280
Right.

909
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:47,280
Energy.

910
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,160
We can't keep generating massive amounts of heat to cool the house and then release that

911
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,440
heat into the, and not think we're going to create a problem.

912
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,360
We're going to have to have these energy efficient systems and fluids in order to accomplish

913
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:58,360
this.

914
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,360
Correct.

915
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:00,720
That's right.

916
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:05,400
So moving from, again, like you mentioned, next generation refrigerants, we're seeing

917
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,600
the push for cold climate heat pumps.

918
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,000
In areas like Chicago, there's a lot of folks in Chicago right now installing heat pumps.

919
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,680
It was minus 35 if you were here last week and the heat pumps were running just fine.

920
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,500
They were able to keep up.

921
00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:20,800
So it can be done, but it has to be done right.

922
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:21,800
We have to have the training.

923
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,800
We have to have the tools.

924
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,800
We have to have the knowledge of what to anticipate.

925
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,560
And again, that comes from sitting down and taking a class, learning how to do this from

926
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,520
your OEM, from different organizations.

927
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,920
There's a lot of training out there, but it can be done.

928
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,240
It's not something that's impossible or just won't work just because you don't want it

929
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:41,240
to work.

930
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:45,720
There's a, all my saying on this for a lot of folks is how can you install a heat pump

931
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:46,720
in Chicago?

932
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:50,520
Listen, a heat pump is an AC unit that just got curious.

933
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,120
I hadn't heard that, Jason.

934
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,000
Yeah, that's my little saying.

935
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:03,880
And so for the record, I will say that all of this transition that we're experiencing,

936
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,640
Chris and I had nothing to do with this.

937
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:06,640
All right.

938
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:07,640
We were witness witnesses.

939
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:08,640
We were there.

940
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,240
We heard what was going on and we're bringing that word to you.

941
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:11,520
We didn't sign anything.

942
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,040
We didn't pass anything or vote on anything.

943
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,040
All right.

944
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,920
This came from the upper levels and came down to us and we're passing it on to you.

945
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:24,880
We're kind of like a go between, if you will, between the legalese where it's 1600 pages

946
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,880
of legal documents and then we turn it into an hour long podcast to let you know what

947
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:29,880
all that says.

948
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Yeah.

949
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,480
I think for us, we just want our channel partners to be successful, right?

950
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:41,480
We want to have a good quality product delivered on time, operate the consumers happy and that

951
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,480
takes training.

952
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:43,480
It does.

953
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,440
As an OEM, you can't put your equipment out there and then someone take it and put it

954
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:48,920
in and it doesn't perform.

955
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040
And then the homeowner blames your equipment and not the tech.

956
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,040
That unit stinks.

957
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,000
We can't don't use that unit.

958
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,000
We can't have that.

959
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:03,120
The OEMs have still a long time building up this reputation for making quality, reliable,

960
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:08,520
efficient equipment and in order for that equipment to be quality, reliable, efficient,

961
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,400
the installing technician and maintenance technician are going to have to have that

962
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,240
training in order to keep it that way.

963
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:15,240
All right.

964
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:19,520
We can't have mad homeowners and mad OEMs because things aren't being done properly.

965
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:20,880
It's going to tear the industry apart.

966
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:27,040
So we have to bring everybody together and do the training and the updates, if you will,

967
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,420
to make sure that this is being done properly so that everybody's happy.

968
00:45:32,420 --> 00:45:34,340
Happy consumers is what we want.

969
00:45:34,340 --> 00:45:38,200
And technicians too.

970
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,360
So I think that's about all the time.

971
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,360
Are there any questions before we call it a day?

972
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:45,520
Are we good?

973
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,720
I think we covered everything in the next gens, right?

974
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:54,120
So everything from flammable to natural, A1, A2L, A3 naturals, we're going to see them

975
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,640
all moving forward.

976
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,880
You'll see a lot of it this spring, this summer and the equipment that's coming out and over

977
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,640
the next three years.

978
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,800
And again, depending on what you service and what you work on, you might see a huge library

979
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,880
of refrigerants from industrial, commercial to residential to packages.

980
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,160
You're going to see a wide variety of refrigerants moving forward.

981
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:20,640
I just finished closing by saying it's urgent, some urgency because the market's about to

982
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:26,040
really here in just a few months, really start seeing the influx of these new refrigerants,

983
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,040
particularly residential.

984
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,040
Right.

985
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,640
And the dates that we had spoke of, they're all coming.

986
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:34,920
One just passed, January 1, 2024, another one January 1, 2025, and then a whole series

987
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,160
of them between 2025 and 2028 for all of the different pieces of equipment.

988
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,200
So the dominoes are going to start falling and they're going to start falling really

989
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:43,200
fast.

990
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:44,200
The first one already fell.

991
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:45,200
Yeah.

992
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:46,200
So hurry on the training.

993
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,200
Don't wait till the last minute or you're going to get stuck in the cold.

994
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,680
Don't wait till it shows up in your warehouse.

995
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:51,680
Yeah.

996
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,000
Until it's in the back of the truck and you're sitting at the customer's home trying to read

997
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,560
the installation manual, figure out how to install this.

998
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,760
Well, page three says we got to do the, hey, get the thing out of the truck, the thing

999
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,140
on page three.

1000
00:47:01,140 --> 00:47:02,140
That's not going to work.

1001
00:47:02,140 --> 00:47:03,140
Yeah.

1002
00:47:03,140 --> 00:47:10,120
And what we're encouraging, Jason, is that for the first time an install occurs in your

1003
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:17,340
region, make sure you reach out to the local AHJ for the first one to make them familiar.

1004
00:47:17,340 --> 00:47:19,440
That way there's no surprises.

1005
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,400
There's some resources online that were rolled out this week with HRI.

1006
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:23,720
We had a new map.

1007
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:29,880
The new map that says by state what codes enable these larger charges of A2Ls.

1008
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:30,880
Brand new.

1009
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,240
What was pointed out was some of it was done legislatively, which means that the code bodies

1010
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:39,840
may not know to what standard or to what I should be installing this to.

1011
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,320
Legally, can I do it?

1012
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,320
Yes.

1013
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:48,360
But for an AHJ, they may not know what am I referencing for this installation.

1014
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,200
So there's some communication between the installer and the inspector there to say,

1015
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,600
let me help you out here.

1016
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,520
If you have the training, you'll know exactly what standards you're supposed to be referring

1017
00:47:58,520 --> 00:47:59,520
to.

1018
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:00,520
You as the contractor and you can...

1019
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,800
And then it's always good to make friends with the inspector.

1020
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:03,800
All right.

1021
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,480
Bring him a coffee and say, listen, here's the standards.

1022
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,480
I'm installing this unit.

1023
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,480
Like you said, the first few, once they get the hang of it, then it'll be a breeze, hopefully,

1024
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:13,480
being done properly.

1025
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:14,480
Yeah.

1026
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,680
And I think it's important in those states and the AHJs know which one they are.

1027
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,480
Their building cycles on adopting these national monocodes can be quite long.

1028
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:23,480
Yes.

1029
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:24,480
It's an exhausting process.

1030
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,760
So in those cases where the state update cycle didn't align with the EPA dates, knowing what

1031
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,880
legislation enabled that is even more important.

1032
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,040
That's why some of these AHJs just may not be aware of it.

1033
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,040
It's not the right time.

1034
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,040
Right.

1035
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,000
And it was done way above their head and without their knowledge.

1036
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,000
Correct.

1037
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,000
So there's a...

1038
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,760
Like he said, there's a lot of resources out there.

1039
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,200
The AHRI website, the ESCA website, the JCI website.

1040
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,080
There is a lot of training that is available.

1041
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:50,160
There's a lot of resources.

1042
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,920
If you walk in your travels today at the show, pay attention to what's in some of them heat

1043
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,280
pumps and some of them commercial industrial AC.

1044
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,160
You're going to see a lot of 2Ls, a lot of Naturals, a lot of these next gen refrigerants.

1045
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:02,160
Yeah.

1046
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,360
I'd encourage you don't embrace it.

1047
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:05,360
It's coming.

1048
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:06,360
Right.

1049
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:07,360
Be ready for it.

1050
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:08,360
And it's a great business opportunity.

1051
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:09,360
It is.

1052
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,120
The saying is the change train is coming through and you have two options.

1053
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,160
You can stand in front of it and get run over or you can get on it.

1054
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,160
All right.

1055
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,320
It's more comfortable on the train than in front of the train.

1056
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:21,320
Train.

1057
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:22,320
All right.

1058
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,000
We're going to call our show.

1059
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,320
We'll thank everyone for sitting down and listening and we'll be here throughout the

1060
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:29,320
day.

1061
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,320
If you want to stop by our booths, JCI, ESCO and say hi.

1062
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:34,320
Thank you, Jason.

1063
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:35,320
Thank you.

1064
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:58,960
찾아서 Taylor.