Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables where we dive into teaching and learning
methodologies for professionals like you. This episode brought to you by New Calgon
providing quality chemicals and specialty products for the air
conditioning, refrigeration, and heating markets. Learn more at NewCalgon.com
So we're hanging out with our good friends over at New Calgon, Dave Ferrone
and Doug Gildhaus. How are you guys doing? Good. Hey, Clefton. Well, we really appreciate you
joining us. You know, there are a lot of things for us to talk about in the
industry. A lot of things that are evolving and a lot of companies looking
at how can we contribute even more than we already have. And New Calgon is a
prime example, right? If we think about New Calgon, what are most people familiar
with with New Calgon? Chemicals, right? A lot of great chemicals. It wasn't a
tale just a few months ago and I'm going through looking at different assets for
the industry and different ways to help people be prepared for new refrigerants
and new technologies. And I found the EcoPure line from New Calgon in Atlanta.
Wait, what? R290 and R600 with our friends at New Calgon. I need to know
more about this. So I reached out to Dave and here we are today. So, Dave, tell us
a little bit about how New Calgon got into the flammable refrigerant sector.
Well, yeah, thanks, Clefton. This is a little bit outside of our normal
wheelhouse. You know, we have a complete line of chemicals, but this is outside
of what we normally do. And, you know, we had some wholesalers and customers who
are, you know, wholesalers who are our primary customer here a couple of years
ago, sitting, meeting with our executives, and one of them brought up the challenges
they were having with sourcing R290. So that led us and our new product
development team, led by Doug, to go ahead and start researching and finding out,
you know, how to best support the industry. So work through our vendor
channels, our vendor partners to develop the EcoPure line. We've got the two
package gases, which we'll talk about here in a little bit, but also the two
different tools, which are great options for technicians to use, you know, whether
they're, you know, experienced or they're a seasoned veteran or, you know, not
very seasoned veteran. You know, we've got a great option for each tech.
If you're not currently working on systems that have highly flammable
refrigerants, I would be prepared for that, because even the residential guys
go, hey, really in residential? And I go, well, there are a lot of things you may
not be aware of. Like, if you follow the SNAP policy, the EPA significant new
alternatives program, we have the approval for using things like R290,
even in air conditioning systems. So residential and light commercial heat
pumps approved in 2015 for use in self-contained room air conditioning
systems with detailed conditions. So we don't have them. I haven't seen any
myself yet here in the United States. We've seen them abroad, but they were
actually approved in 2019. Now commercial refrigeration, they're everywhere. We had
Lear telling us that they're converting all their ice chest over to 290. Manitowoc
moving their ice machines into R290. Residential, we've seen R290 and 600 for
a decade, if we didn't already know that. So we are moving into some very new
refrigerants. So, all right, I'm pretty excited to learn more about this and the
resources. So that's enough of me yacking. Let's have some time with you guys.
So, you know, I think many people are familiar with us and New Calgon and what we do, but, you
know, we like to view ourselves as the value-added company. We've got factory
direct sales force. We've got, we provide wholesaler training, we do road shows
every year. We have trainings at our St. Louis facility here, three
typically per year. We've got a great online resource with New Calgon
University. And, you know, we feel like we have the most complete specialty
chemical product line. So, yeah, that New Calgon University, great
source of getting continuing education credits, really great tool for people to
learn all about the different products we offer. And like I said, this little bit
outside of our wheelhouse and what we normally do, but we are excited about it.
We think it's a great way for us to support the industry as it moves into
something that is new to many people. There's a lot of scared people out there going,
boy, this is really scary. This is really challenging. And we go, well,
everything is scary and challenging until we get educated about it. And then
it just becomes standard. We've been through these transitions before. It's not really new.
It's just we just got to be prepared. Yeah. So, you know, really, I think when we
always talk about this, we like to start with where we've been and what, you know,
why we're going through this period. So Doug will try to take us through a little bit of that.
I find it interesting to talk about where we've been while we're looking towards the future.
And what's interesting about hydrocarbons, R290, R600, they're not exactly new.
They've been around for 100 years or more. So if you look at the turn of the century,
we were using hydrocarbons. And the reason for that is they were simple molecules at the time.
And so we're kind of going back. Frankly, we're making a full circle.
And so I find that intriguing, really. If you look back to the 30s, you know,
R12 came along and R502 thereafter, R22. And early 90s, we got into HSCs,
been doing those, been selling obviously HSCs for 30 years.
And we're moving away from that. There's obviously a lot of industry
across going to new refrigerants. And it's going to be by committee.
There's not a single refrigerant that's going to do it.
That's exactly right.
For smaller systems, hydrocarbons, R290, R600 have a lot of plight for lots of reasons that they will get into.
You get into a little bit bigger systems. You're hearing a lot about the A2L refrigerants.
Absolutely, tons of them.
Larger CO2 and then ammonia. Again, ammonia has not been new, always been there in that regard.
So it's natural. So it's by committee.
So it's not a single refrigerant, but it's going to be by committee.
So I find that intriguing. You know, you look at all the press with the phase down,
that things are really going to hit the fan starting next year with another 30 percent reduction off 2015 baseline.
So each country has its own, you know, its own directory on how to do that.
But HSCs will be a little more scarce than they were this year because of the planned phase down.
So, with that said, R290, R600, where they can play, will continue to grow.
And so that's the reason for the discussion today.
You know, switching gears, we're not going to go through this chart.
What I like showing here is kind of the buckets of thought.
And so you look at refrigerants that we're leaving.
We're phasing down the HSCs, the R134A, 404A, 410A.
We're starting a planned phase out. And then you'll listen to the industry.
There's a lot of what we would call transitional refrigerants.
Yes.
R44A and R449 for refrigeration.
And even though it's new, it's kind of a transitional refrigerant.
R32, Dyken's going to be using that.
R54B, you know, Carrier and others are looking at that as an A2L refrigerant for air conditioning.
So they categorize that by DWP.
And so, you know, there are 600, 700, 500, you know, DWP values.
And so they're considered transitional.
Now we can use the word transitional.
It might be transitional for a long time.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's transitional, but long window for air conditioning.
But you look at refrigeration, you get into, and really the topic of discussion today is R290, R600.
They have virtually zero DWP.
Three, and very low.
Down there.
So these are from an eco profile.
They're very good.
And from a performance profile.
Yeah, they're good refrigerants.
Great refrigerants.
So there's a lot of plus side to that.
So it's pockets of thought of, you know, there's where we are, some transitionals to be long and where they want to go.
It's all based on a DWP 150 to 300 being max, being more of a long term play there.
You hear a lot of terms out there.
Certainly in recent years, A1, A2L, A3, Asprey has safety classifications for refrigerants and how they're listed.
So the 134A, 410A, 404A, you know, those are considered A1 refrigerants.
So they are a low toxicity, no flame propagation.
They don't provide any flame propagation.
You will hear a lot about the A2Ls.
It's low flammability.
And so there's a lot that will come out of that in recent, in coming years with the R290, R600A.
We're talking about we call it A3.
So it has a low toxicity, but has a higher flammability.
And so we'll get into that here a little bit.
So that's the thing to be aware of.
And it's all can be tempered with education.
Just understand what we're dealing with.
So really the refrigerant segment is evolving, right?
It continues to change as we go.
So you'll see a lot of news with the HSC, HFO blends that are out there.
And for refrigeration systems, you know, long term wise, you're looking at GWPs of 150 to 300,
depending on the size of the equipment and our application.
So those are long term values.
Those are targets we're wanting to hit.
So if you look from a long term perspective, planned mainstays, ones that are going to be here long term.
Systems that are here for a little while.
Exactly, exactly.
Ammonia, industrial process, cooling, large applications, industrial carbon dioxide,
CO2 refrigeration, trans subcritical CO2 applications.
We're talking R290 600A for smaller systems.
And there's some ones down the road, HSC, HFO blends that have low GWP for supermarket refrigeration.
We'll look at as well.
So those are all then there's some automotive applications.
So what's interesting with air conditioning, before we get back in refrigeration with R32 or R404AP,
those have higher than 300 GWP.
So technically they're a transition.
I'm not sure what that really means.
It's a long term transition, but they have a higher 500 to 700 GWP in that regard.
And there's going to be some areas that are already saying they're not even going to allow that.
You know, some states, some jurisdictions, you know, we've got the technology transition rule coming through at the EPA.
You know, all of these things could be expedited.
And so when we send out these reports and we send out these newsletters and we put out these blogs and posts and people go,
oh, well, yeah, yeah, I see where we're talking about doing that over the, you know, the next 13 years.
And we go, well, you know, that is like one of the pieces of legislation.
There are multiple layers in there, and especially depending on where you live.
So some of this may come much, much faster than you were anticipating, because some people go, well, we'll yeah,
we'll see this in the next year or the next five years.
And I'll go, when's the last time you actually went to Costco or Walmart and looked at a window air conditioner?
They're all already R32. When's the last time you looked at a pop cooler?
Thank you. I noticed one well ago, Keenan. I think it was Matt was saying all the cases at Kroger are 290.
You know, back when I was working, when I was a mobile engineer back at Meyer, so I was doing, you know,
new store startups and commissionings and working on older grocery stores and a lot of our checkout lanes,
10, almost 10 years ago, we're converting over to true R290 coolers.
So it's not like they're new. I mean, for the last 10 years, you've been walking by R290 coolers
and probably didn't even know it because they hadn't broke yet.
But, you know, we're getting a decade in. So now we have to be flexible enough to be able to work on this stuff.
Yep. Yeah, absolutely.
So that that leads us to really the question of, you know, about what about hydrocarbons, right?
You know, and where are we going with the new refrigerants that Doug talked about, those A3, R290, R600A?
You know, we've got propane or isobutane. And what about them as refrigerant?
So what, you know, what you think about when you think about a hydrocarbon as a refrigerant,
the important thing to consider is the efficiency. So they provide great heat transfer, which is, you know,
helps with the efficiency. So and that's specific when you compare them to the HFCs that they're replacing.
So units that are more efficient, need less refrigerant, they use less energy to run.
But, you know, that's really the whole name of the game here. All this place is green energy, climate change,
legislation, all those things driving towards greener refrigerants using less energy.
And that's that's where all this is coming from. So you mentioned that already,
true manufacturing, Lear, Mantwalk, you've got all these companies moving over.
So R290, R600A very commonly used as refrigerants by the OEMs out there in today's marketplace.
So, you know, as Doug mentioned, low environmental impact, low GWP, zero ozone depleting potential.
Really, these are these are good eco-friendly refrigerants that are out there in the marketplace now.
Indeed. You know, but you got to consider what's different about them. As Doug mentioned, they're flammable.
That's the thing. They're not toxic, but they are highly flammable. So they fall into that A3 category.
You know, many of the procedures that a technician is going to use when working on a hydrocarbon system
are very similar to the procedures they're working on other systems.
It's that's the procedures and technical ability that they need to have is not that different.
However, the types of tools they have are going to be different.
OK, all right, they're going to have different types of tools with them,
you know, that are specifically for hydrocarbons or designed for that type of refrigerant.
So that's something to keep in mind, the procedures and the skills they need, not really that that different.
The tools might be, though, depending on what they're doing.
So that's important to keep in mind. So in the current guidelines,
you know, newly produced units that are specifically designed for R290 or R600A
can contain 150 grams of refrigerant or less.
So that's 5.3 ounces or one third of a pound.
That's that's the current limit that you have is 150 grams or less of these.
Now, many systems hold significantly under that, but that's the maximum allowable charge.
You know, this is going to be household refrigerators, freezers,
vending machines, retail food refrigerators, freezers, ice chests, ice makers.
There's so many things out there.
We get on the pop station that you see at the checkout at Walgreens.
That's that's likely going to have R290 in it.
The little freezer cases in the middle of the aisle, all these, those might have
have a, you know, a small R290 system in there.
There's so many things, like you said, you walk by every day.
You know, it's already in people's lives.
They just don't know that they're encountering it.
So I've been looking at different manufacturers of commercial refrigeration
because that was my specialty.
I worked on a lot of little junk over the years.
And so I was very curious what the manufacturers were doing.
And I have found multiple manufacturers that go all the way up to three door
reach in freezers operating on R290.
So they have a pretty significant amount of capacity
because of the efficiency of the refrigerant.
But yeah, three door reach in freezers absolutely have the potential
of having R290 in them.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like you said, I mean, it's it's already out there.
And True Manufacturing, who's the St. Louis company that been in, you know,
they've been doing it for years and pretty much everything they have is R290.
It's all over the place already.
And it's just going to keep growing as the legislation keeps expanding. Sure.
A lot of people don't realize that we were talking about this
before the show, you know, this year in the UK, one of the most popular
residential systems were R290 powered mono block, basically
water source heat pumps so that you could produce hot water,
cold water off from a mono block outdoor unit running on R290.
So we are going to see that moving into the United States and being voted on.
But you have all the building code, you know, that's a long process,
just like we're struggling with A2Ls right now.
But we absolutely have the potential to see larger quantities of R290
going into equipment in the future, depending on its location, its installation.
Think about propane right now.
How many pounds of that's not technically R290 because it's got sulfur dioxide.
It's got odorants in it.
But how many pounds of propane do we have sitting, you know,
a couple of feet from our structure right now outside?
Typically 20 plus, right? Yeah.
In propane, because R290 is just a purified propane.
So, you know, there will be a lot of the R290
moving into locations that you may not have been prepared for.
Yeah. Well, and that like we've we talked about earlier and we've mentioned,
you know, we're we're just scratching the surface.
You know, as the laws change and as this push for green energy and, you know, climate
legislation, we're just scratching the surface.
So, you know, where are we going, though?
That's important to consider.
You know, they have UL has approved increasing the charge limits.
So depending on the types of equipment that it's filling in.
So what we're at now is the 150 grams or less.
What we're eventually going to go to is a maximum of 300 to 500,
depending on the type of appliance that we're looking at.
So you're going to have a maximum charge of 300 grams on closed appliances,
like a walk in or something like that, up to 500 grams on a open appliance.
So, you know, we're going to see that that charge limit dramatically increase,
which is going to open up more applications for different types of equipment to have this in it.
So those changes are in process.
We think, you know, here in the horizon, very near future,
we're going to have started to see more of that design out there.
Dave, Doug, thank you guys so much.
All right. Well, thanks, everyone.
Thank you. We'll see you all next week on Did You Know?
The ESCO Age Fact Show.
Everyone come back and watch these on YouTube and on the website.
Tell everyone about these.
It's education for you.
See you all.