Welcome to the future, technologies and innovations that sculpt our industry.
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The ESCO Age Fact Show.
We're hanging out with our very own Jason Abjude.
How are you buddy?
I'm good.
How are you Clifton?
I'm doing great.
After last week's show, we were hanging out talking about A3 equipment that was coming
to the industry and A3 trainers for our classrooms.
And I actually had some emails asking me when we thought we were going to see these new
refrigerants out in the industry.
And I went, oh boy.
That's really where we are out here in no man's land trying to keep the industry aware
of the changes that are happening all around us.
Those R290 pieces of equipment we were talking about.
I ran into my first one back in 2016 in a checkout lane at a Meijer grocery store.
So they've been around a good while in some aspect or another, but we have a lot of new
refrigerants coming as well.
And you know, yeah, we've got our residential and our light commercial, which is going through
some transitions.
We'll talk about that.
They're going to see a couple of different refrigerants.
But when we start talking about commercial refrigeration, man, that's a whole nother
animal in itself, isn't it, Jason?
It is.
Yeah, I was just going to say residentially, upstairs in my kitchen, I've got an R600A
refrigerator.
It's been there for about five years.
Yeah, exactly.
So nothing new to the industry.
So what is new to the industry?
Well, that's what we're here to talk about.
What is changing?
What can we be prepared for?
And how soon is it going to get here?
Because some of it's here, some of it's going to be here very, very fast.
So let's talk a little bit about our refrigerant transitions before we get too deep into what
the new refrigerants are.
If we step way back, when we started on our R12, when we started making our descending
changes in chemicals, it was to reduce our ozone depletion, right?
So we started with our very high ozone depleting refrigerants.
We started knocking those off.
We came up with replacements for those.
We went from our CFC refrigerants and we did have some of our HCFCs at the same time.
So we started transitioning.
We started walking our way into HFC refrigerants where we removed the chlorine that was in
the refrigerants.
And then we were now faced with a global warming due to the fluorine that was in the refrigerants,
right?
So as we started continuing down our transition of refrigerants, we made some changes.
We're now making a lot of changes, okay?
And so we need to be aware of what these look like.
So we're now moving into a variety of refrigerants.
For those refrigerants, or most of those refrigerants that we worked with in the past were A1 ashyrate
classification.
So they were very, very slightly or non-flammable refrigerants.
They were non-toxic.
So as we move into these new classes of like A2, A2L, and A3, we need to be prepared for
where we're going to see those because they are going to be in some pieces of equipment
that look similar to each other, but might be for very different applications.
Some may not even be able to be allowed to be installed in the local building codes.
So we may see two different classes of refrigerants in a very similar piece of equipment based
on your location.
Is that some of the things that you hear?
Yeah.
One of the things that we noticed like with the previous generations of refrigerants is
that you would see one refrigerant used across seven, eight different applications.
We used to use R12 everywhere.
Everything.
Cars, coolers, walk-ins, stationaries.
Hook dispensers.
I mean, you named it.
So we're going to start to see more application specific type refrigerants where this refrigerant
is used in this application.
This refrigerant is used specifically here.
We're going to see a lot more of that moving forward.
Exactly.
So let's dive into them.
Let's see what we've got and let's break them apart a little bit.
So we're going to see definitely our HFOs, very, very popular refrigerants out there.
So they're at the very bottom of our scale, very low global warming potential.
We're going to see a lot of hydrocarbons primarily in our smaller equipment.
And I will show you and talk about a lot of what those are here really soon.
And we also have some blends that are HFO and HFC blends.
Remember we are on this transition away from HFC refrigerants.
It is not a complete phase out like we've seen with CFCs and HCFCs.
It is a phase down, but it's a phase down by 85%.
And that's a big chunk.
That's a huge chunk.
And it's most of the refrigerants that we all ready know.
So to be able to meet the demand, we're going to have some blended refrigerants out there
that will use still some of these HFCs.
So they're not completely going away.
We're just using less of them in new refrigerants and they're going to be blended with other
like HFOs.
So what ones are already available, what ones are coming.
That's what we're here to talk about.
So Jason, tell us a little bit about the entire SNAP side of EPA.
So if we want to use a refrigerator and if I'm a manufacturer, a refrigerator manufacturer,
equipment manufacturer, one of the requirements is that it is approved by EPA through the
SNAP, the Significant New Alternatives Program.
So there has to be an application submitted to SNAP.
There's documentation that's required.
And then the EPA will evaluate for a very specific application, whether or not this
refrigerant is an acceptable substitute for that application.
We have a lot of different, what they call end uses.
These are all just different applications.
And you can see the refrigerants that have been approved for those applications.
That doesn't mean they can be used everywhere or anywhere.
And there are what we call subject to use limitations.
So there's going to be charge limitations.
It doesn't mean that I can use R290 at 15 pounds or 30 pounds.
There's a...
It's very specific.
It is very specific.
Yes.
So when we get into what you mentioned earlier, 2L, 2 and 3 refrigerants on the flammability
scale, there are going to be charge limitations based on one, the flammability and two, the
application.
Is it a commercial occupancy?
How big is it?
Right.
What's the free airspace around this piece of appliance?
Is it in a closet?
These are things that we didn't usually, again, in the past with the A1 refrigerants, with
that I-RCLs, it wasn't something that concerned us or that we paid much attention to, especially
with 410A because it has such a high RCL.
It was something that we didn't really pay attention to, but it is something moving forward
that we are going to have to pay a lot of attention to.
Exactly.
If you look at the EPA and the refrigerants that they had to work with in the past, they
had a fair amount of work to decide what refrigerant is going to be utilized.
Now they have a lot of continual work.
So we're going to see these new updates.
The current one right now that we're under is called the SNAP 26 proposal.
I just want to point out this is SNAP 26.
So there's 23, 24, 25, 26.
All of these SNAP proposals are based on, again, new refrigerants that we're having
to use across a wide variety of applications.
So this is only a proposal.
It should be finalized.
I believe the comment period is closed and it should be finalized in the next few months.
But SNAP 23 was one of the first ones that approved A2Ls for use.
Then there was 24 and 25 and 26.
And again, just expanding on the applications.
And the different refrigerants that are going to be approved in those applications.
And there'll probably be a few more within the next year or so, depending on who submits
an application to SNAP to say, listen, we need to use this refrigerant in this application.
Sure.
So we could see this particular chart added onto.
We could potentially see new refrigerants.
I'm sure there are a lot of other refrigerants out there being tested.
But right now, this is our most current.
So if it is accepted as is, which is anticipated to happen, these will be the new refrigerants
going into new pieces of equipment.
New equipment, correct.
Starting very, very soon.
And this is where people get hung up.
They think, oh, well, is this going to be alternative refrigerants that we're talking
about in a few years?
Or is this going to be an optional refrigerant?
No, this is it.
These are the new refrigerants that would be allowed in new pieces of equipment based
on these.
We're going to break them down.
So we'll talk about them a little bit more in depth.
Our commercial ice machines, which are remote condenser style.
So these are split system commercial ice machines, particularly industrial process refrigeration.
So that's industrial refrigeration devices, our cold storage warehouses, ice skating rinks,
retail food refrigeration.
So a lot of our commercial refrigeration equipment, whether it's standalone or it's grocery store,
we're going to go through each of those and show you exactly what that looks like.
So a lot happening in the refrigeration side of our industry.
This is all based again on GWP, the global warming potential.
And there's a lot of talk about what that is and what limitations are.
And there's something called the technology transition rule that limits for new equipment
what the GWP of the refrigerant can be.
We anticipate this to be finalized in October, October 7 to be specific.
But what this means is as if you look at a lot of the dates, January 1, 2025, what that
means is a piece of equipment that's going to be put into the market by January 1, 2025
has to have operate on a refrigerant that's at the proposed GWP limit or under exactly
which we're probably going to see this pass as well.
That's what we hear on the street.
Yes, there might be some minor modifications to one or two of the dates or one or two of
the subsectors, but it's going to look a lot like what you see on the screen.
And I want to point out or highlight the residential light commercial air conditioning and heat
pump systems at 700 GWP by January 1, 2025.
So folks that are saying, listen, we got time.
This isn't common.
Listen, by January 1, 2025, new equipment has to operate on refrigerants that are at
700 GWP or less.
Okay.
So we're talking January 21st, 25 for residential systems.
We're talking about January 26 for our VRV, VRF systems.
So that's a lot to think about what happens with the refrigerant.
So we know.
So let's think about that.
So we've had like our 22 moving away.
So we've seen replacements for our 22, like 407, 422, 17, a snap, a snap of who substitutes
for our 22.
Exactly.
There's a lot of things out there.
What about like our 410?
We are comfortable 410, 404.
I mean, there's a lot, 134A.
These are all refrigerants that I've grown up with.
And I'm very, very comfortable with.
What about you?
What's the ones that you like?
Well, here's the interesting thing.
There's a lot of refrigerants out there that are sweating bullets right now because they
are not going to be able to meet any of these limits.
So we have a lot going on in the industry.
We can talk about CR2 a little bit if we need to.
We can talk about the transition into A2Ls in the residential light commercial.
The most important thing to be aware of is that we have things that are happening from
different sides of the industry that are going to come together to affect what these refrigerants
look like in the equipment.
So you could have EPA saying, hey, you know, we're going to say that these are the only
refrigerants that can be used.
And then we're also going to go, and by the way, we're going to set these limits on equipment.
And then you can also have local jurisdictions like we've already seen in California going,
yeah.
And I think I'm going to be a little bit even tighter than that.
Right.
So we have to be very careful with understanding refrigerants.
All right.
So real quick, I want to point out that a lot of the refrigerants that we saw and the
refrigerants that are going to meet these GWP limits are not necessarily new refrigerants.
They might be new to us.
Yeah, exactly.
They've been on the mark.
Like one, two, three, four YF has been in cars forever.
I've got a 2016 Ram.
It's in it.
Yeah.
2012 was first Cadillac that we've seen with it here.
In 2015, we saw R32, which is an ethuel.
Absolutely.
And window units.
We've seen 290 and 600A, which are highly flammable A3s in the residential refrigerators
and freezers and commercial applications reaching coolers and freezers.
So just because they're new to us doesn't mean they're new to the industry.
And propane goes way back to the 30s and 20s.
Yes.
Absolutely.
A hundred years, well over a hundred years for R290 propane that we know.
Right.
One of the reasons we came up with chlorofluorocarbons is because we were looking for a non-flammable,
non-toxic refrigerant.
Right?
So we did.
We came up with CFCs.
So these aren't new.
A lot of them.
And if we want to talk a little bit about the blends on these, like the 454s, and we'll
talk about that here in a minute.
We'll come back to that because even a lot of these numbers that you're not familiar
with right now are blends of some of these other numbers like R32 and 1234YF.
A lot of them.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that's a better understanding.
So what does that mean?
I know no one hopped in there on the chat.
I feel heartbroken.
410A and 407C were the two that got picked on the most there.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So let's take a look real quick while we're here.
Now, if you want to learn more about all of our A2Ls and the low GWPs and exactly what
this looks like and the safety procedures, you need to head on over to Jason's low GWP
training program, right?
All available on escogroup.org.
It's on our e-learning network.
If you're interested in diving deeper into low GWP refrigerants, whether they're A2Ls
or A3s, we've got the deep diving resources for you to get better familiar with these.
If you haven't started, you should start now.
Yeah.
Well, we were talking about this before the show started.
You know, I feel like we're halfway down this slippery slope and the majority of our industry
is up at the top going, what are you doing down there?
What's going on over there?
And so we really have a lot to catch up with in our industry.
So what refrigerants are going to be going away, whether they get caught by the new refrigerants
and equipment or they get caught by the reduced GWP in equipment, it's going to be pretty
much everything you're already comfortable with, right?
And when we look at just the global warming potential of these refrigerants, we're going
to see very high GWPs.
Remember, when we went away from R22, we reduced our ozone depleting potential.
That was the goal, but we actually went up in global warming potential.
So now we are battling global warming potential in our refrigerants.
So everything that you work with now, whether you're in light commercial, whether you're
in residential, you're in industrial, you're in refrigeration, you're going to see your
most popular friends going away in a very, very, very quick.
Before you skip to this, I just want to throw this out there.
So we're looking at the GWP numbers on these cylinders.
Let's take, for example, 410A.
It says it has a GWP of 2,090.
Yeah.
What does that mean?
What that means is if 410A were to be vented to the at least here, that means it can trap
2,090 times more heat than CO2 by itself.
So CO2 has a GWP of one.
So 410A, when released in the same amount as CO2, can trap 2,090 times as much heat
in the 100 year time period, right?
Then CO2 by itself.
Wow.
So if you look at those numbers, 4048, 3,920, I mean, it's huge.
Yeah.
And that is our primary low temp refrigerant in refrigeration systems, right?
You know, if we get into commercial refrigeration, we primarily right now are using 134A for medium
temp and 404 for low temp.
Both of those are going away very rapidly.
In some states, they've already gone.
They're already gone.
There's some local jurisdictions that said, listen, get this stuff out of here.
We don't want to sell it here no more.
I'm not going to mention any names and make anyone mad, but there are some states that
Limited liability.
Yes.
They said, listen, we're done with this.
Move on.
Move on to something new.
So if you're already working with 410A, 404A, 134A, 422B, 407C and 458A, so those last
three are just our 22 replacements, all on that chopping block, which we don't really
see in new equipment anyhow.
There are more of a service gas, but just to be aware of how they align up with the
rest of these refrigerants, right?
The higher down is going to affect these refrigerants just because of their GWP.
So let's talk about that phased down.
All right.
So what is this phase down?
We keep preaching this phase down.
Well, the phase down means that we have already started the reduction of the amount of HFC
refridgerator.
Did anybody who said that we've already started a lot of people say, when is this going to
start or when is this going to happen here at all the time?
It started last year, January 1 of last year.
Did anyone see the prices of R410A, R404, R134A?
Did you see the prices of any of those go up this last year by chance?
Just out of curiosity.
I see it on forums all the time and every once in a while I'll hop in and I'll put
a reply and people will just treat me like I'm some maniac and I'm just coming up with
this stuff out of my ear, but this is the truth.
So last year we started a 10%, January 1st of 2022, we started a 10% reduction down our
slide, which means if we made a million pounds of a HFC refrigerant in 2021, we made 900,000
pounds of it the following 2022.
So what's that do for if our demand?
So let's think about basic economics.
If our demand goes up and our production goes down, what's going to happen to the price?
Or stock.
Right.
It's going to increase.
So for anyone that questions why the price of refrigerants went up in 2022 more than
any other year, here's the slippery slope that we began.
Here's the interesting thing and make sure you pay attention to this.
January 1st, 2024, we're going to add an additional three times that 30%, an additional
30% reduction.
We've already came down 10.
We're not going to step down to a 40% reduction in the amount of HFCs that are newly manufactured.
So that is going to be a huge driving force on the cost of refrigerants, which is in turn
causing our manufacturers to utilize these new refrigerants, sometimes maybe ahead of
schedule just because of the prices of refrigerants.
So when we say these are our deadlines, when snap 26 is approved, which probably going
to in our equipment, GWP is approved.
We're not going to start then we're going to start before then.
So that we're prepared for when we get there.
So this equipment is going to be out and be ready when those before those dates come before
you get off the slide, I want to kind of explain how this how the aim act here works.
The aim act was passed by Congress, signed by the president.
So it's not going to go away.
Not going away for the naysayers.
The next president's not going to remove it.
It's not just an overall reduction of all HFCs.
It works like a bank account where there's an allotment every year.
Okay.
And look at me.
Oh, like a wallet.
Let's say a bank account.
That's right.
If I'm a refrigerant manufacturer and I get my allotment from the government, the EPA
says, get my little child, I can make a million pounds based on pounds or based on carbon
emissions based on the GWP.
So me as the manufacturer, I get to decide what I'm going to make.
But each tank of refrigerant I make is going to draw from those credits.
It's going to deduct from my bank account.
So if I'm a manufacturer and I want to make enough refrigerant to sell all year, I'm going
to probably pick and choose the lower GWP ones.
I can make more tanks of it.
Correct.
Yeah, absolutely.
Some manufacturers are just going to look at them high ones.
I don't want to point fingers, but let's say 4048, 3920.
That's a big chunk.
All right.
That's a big withdrawal from my allotment.
What if as an HFO at like seven, right?
Or our our 32 at 676.
Exactly.
So three and a half.
Yeah.
This is going to affect some refrigerants more than others.
Exactly.
Based on again, the manufacturer and based on the GWP of the refrigerant.
So when you ask what's going to happen to say 407C, well, it does have a pretty high
GWP.
Some people will still make it.
We'll see it reduced.
Right.
It's not going to be as if it's high GWP, but we're going to see the higher GWP refrigerants
affected the most.
The yeah, the the soonest.
It's based on credits that or allotments that the EPA hands out to the manufacturers and
each tank pulls from that allotment.
And once they've reached their limit, they're done for the year on that.
And the carbon emissions.
Wow.
So when we think about how this is affecting us and we go, oh, this is just the industry,
this is just the government.
Everyone is being affected by this.
Remember, this is all based on international treaties, not just local jurisdictions.
You know, we talk about the Kigali Amendment.
You know, that was an amendment to the Montreal Protocol.
It was an international treaty to reduce our effect to the world that we live on with the
refrigerants that we use in air conditioning, refrigeration, foam blowing aerosols, Friday,
different things.
Europe's gas regulations are the same.
They're very in line with us.
Yeah.
So we're not the only ones doing it.
No, we just need to understand it and understand it.
And how it affects us.
So yes, big changes in all of those HFC refrigerants.
You know, and a big reason that we're here to do this is to help understand if we're
not educated, we end up having byproducts of a lack of education.
All right.
Well, I think we'll wrap it up.
Jason, thank you so much for hanging out, man.
Thanks for having me on, dude.
I'd love to see you on here more, you know, and it's just a crazy time in the industry.
And right now, yes, there's a lot.
There's so much going on.
We need to let everybody know what's going on.
We're doing our best.
We're reaching out via these shows, podcasts, webcasts, emails, flyers, classes in person
online.
I mean, it's a big tall order to fill, but we're doing our best.
Yeah, we do.
All right.
Well, everyone have a wonderful rest of your day and we look forward to hanging out with
you again the next time.