You can call me if you want to talk to me.
Real talk, real people, real stories, The He's Jizz Podcast. Yeah! Welcome everyone to another He's Jizz Podcast.
I'm your host and founder of The He's Jizz, the social worker movement with another amazing show for you today.
But before we get started, I want to remind everyone that this platform was built because way too often as people, we were overlooked or labeled.
And this is no longer, our plight and our fight is for anyone and everyone who feels the need to be understood.
We are strong as individuals, but unstoppable when we unite.
You know, an ally is someone who supports, helps or stands in solidarity with another person, group or cause.
Meet Karen Caitlyn. She's an author, speaker and advocate for inclusive workshops.
After 25 years in tech, she is serving as vice president of engineering at Adobe.
She shifted her focus to creating equitable and diverse work environments. Karen is the author of four books, including Better Allies,
Everyday Actions to Create Inclusive, Engaging Workplaces, and publishes the weekly five ally actions newsletter, reaching out to about 40,000 subscribers.
Through her writing, speaking and coaching, she equips individuals and organizations with practical tools to force the belonging and drive meaningful change.
Karen, welcome to our show.
Oh, Jules, it's my pleasure. I am so excited about our conversation.
We are so psyched because prior to getting an opportunity to meet you, I was really thinking about why work is so difficult sometimes for people and we have so much to talk about.
But before we get to that, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us a little bit about your journey and your walk and how you got involved into this work.
Yeah, let me tell you the backstory.
As you mentioned in the introduction, thank you, I did work in tech for about 25 years. And as a woman in a male dominated field, I was definitely part of an underrepresented group.
And there were certain things that maybe were challenging along the way. But I basically was witnessing firsthand the lack of diversity in tech about gender, gender diversity, I'll emphasize.
And it was frustrating, but I decided I really wanted to do something about that. So while I'm still working at Adobe as a VP of engineering, I did things to try to make a difference to pay it forward.
I started our women's employee resource group. I started mentoring a lot of women, sponsoring like a book club for women, just anything I could do to support women's career growth.
I was there. And, Jules, I'll tell you, after doing that for a number of years, in addition to being a VP of engineering, I decided one of them was my passion, and it wasn't being a VP of engineering anymore.
I just wanted to help women full time. So I started a coaching business, a coaching business where I could help women develop leadership skills.
And I still do that kind of coaching today. Love it. But I realized that, hey, if I really want to help my clients and frankly women everywhere, if I really want to scale my efforts and make a difference, I needed to create more inclusive workplaces,
where not just women, but anyone who's underrepresented based on some aspect of their identity could actually show up in that workplace, get a job, and do their best work and thrive. I mean, that's what we're all about.
We all want to be able to show up to our jobs and do our best work. And a lot of workplaces aren't set up that way.
But I think that workplaces that basically favor one aspect of identity, and that tends to be men who are white, at least here in the United States, could be different in other countries.
But I wanted to make, totally naive, but I wanted to make workplaces everywhere more inclusive.
And I was actually I was naive, Jules, because if I knew how hard this work was going to be, I probably never would have started, but I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this I'm going to create more inclusive workplaces everywhere.
And this goes back 10 years, 10 years ago. The first thing anyone did when they wanted to change the world was they opened up Twitter and started a new Twitter account right.
And so I did that and I called mine at Better Allies, deciding that I think that the key here is that if more people just knew how to be better allies and how to do that support that advocacy to take action to create more inclusion,
if more people just knew how to do it. I thought more people would do it, and we could make a difference.
Well, anyway, long story short, I'm coming to the end of my backstory here but the long story short here is that Twitter handles started growing in popularity.
I started getting speaking requests about these ideas had these, these everyday things people could do to be more inclusive at work.
And every time I gave a talk, Jules, someone in the audience would ask a question like this like hey, hey Karen, this was a good talk. But do you have a book because we want more.
First time I was like, no, but I've got this great Twitter handle go over and check it out. Second time. No book yet. Third time coming soon. And as you mentioned, I've now published four books in the Better Allies series.
So that's how I've come to do this work.
And I'm going to talk about this as a good example to you and for not giving up and for just keeping up the good fight. I like the fact that this concept kind of spends to, you know, I just started out with an idea I'm just going to take on the world and then you notice this is going to be a heavier lift that I actually thought
in creating this handle when to then even think better allies are really make sense because you can't do it alone. You need more people that are like you to kind of help this work. We want to dig in more. Let's talk a little bit about
what is it like to be an active ally in the workplace and what does that mean.
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think everyone if you want to be a better ally you're taking action. So I think active is a really good word here. There's no such thing as an inactive ally to me that's a double negative or something I don't even know it like it cancels each other out.
But active allies. Yes, it means taking action in the workplace. You know, one, one thing I think is so important for people to realize is how you experience the workplace, especially if you have a lot of privilege based on your identity.
The way you experience the workplace could be very different from than your coworkers who are from underrepresented demographics. You might think nothing of sending out an email to the CEO to propose a new idea whereas someone who doesn't maybe look the part who feels maybe less confident because
of some aspects of their identity who's never met the CEO because the CEO, you know, doesn't spend time with people like them. That person might be less confident about sending the CEO an email with a great idea.
So that's an example of just like how privilege can show up and how the workplace can be different experienced in a different way for different people.
And so I think that as an ally we need to understand what are those things that are going to be impacting people differently.
One example and I think this is regardless of whether it's a you're working in a company with a CEO or you're working in a school with some administrators or something. We spend a lot of time in meetings, don't we?
Meetings to sort things out, to plan, to figure out things. And meetings unfortunately can be filled with non inclusive behavior.
One example are interruptions or people having trouble getting a word in edgewise. We've all been there. Meetings that seem like there are a few dominant voices they tend to dominate the conversation.
Well, as an ally, we can notice what's happening and speak up and we can say things like, hey, I noticed that Jane has been trying to say something. Could we pause here and listen to Jane or hear from Jane?
Or, hey, I really want to hear what Jane was saying after Jane was interrupted. You know, we can say something like that.
We can also, if it's a virtual meeting, you know, kind of give those emojis and thumbs up or claps when someone makes a good point, especially if that person is from an underrepresented and often overlooked group, that will mean the world to that person to get that
shout out, even if it is just an emoji. So there are various things we can do to make sure that everyone's voices are heard in a meeting and people feel included in that meeting.
And I like to say that in your answer, I couldn't stop thinking about a common friend of ours, who is the queen of micro skills, given an opportunity for those that don't have a voice who may want to share and someone else is just interrupting,
talking louder than them. So shout out to our common friend, Risa, who we love.
The fact that when you're in the workplace, and you are thinking about disrupting, right, because part of being an ally is saying, look, we both agree, our group agrees, we need to do more.
How does that process begin and what is the right steps to take that can keep your job safe, if you will.
Well, yeah, so you got to navigate your workplace. I mean, it's, it's, it's not one size fits all and what that means to be safe in one workplace might not be the same thing that means to be safe and another when you do want to take action.
Gosh, there's probably a whole nother podcast guest that you could have if you haven't already had someone about psychological safety in the workplace and how important that is as a foundation for people taking action when they see something that's not right, not inclusive,
not, not the right thing to be doing.
Let's, so, so it's not one size fits all that's my point. My writing and especially with my weekly newsletter, what I try to do is give people ideas of things that they could do that they maybe haven't ever done before, or that they've done in the past and they just kind of forgot about it because it's not a habit.
I think that having a regular reminder of some of these things is important because everyone's on a different spot in their journey. You know, I get I'll just share with you I get frustrated at times when people when companies do what's called pride washing
rainbow washing where they might put the rainbow on their logo for Pride month in June, or they might hand out t shirts, pride related t shirts or sponsor the parade or something. And then they kind of don't do anything else the rest of the year I get kind of frustrated at that.
The one employee who maybe has never been to a pride parade before, or it's actually a brave act for them to take that t shirt and put it on to show that they support their coworkers from the LGBTQ plus community.
For that person, that could be a very brave act, and is a fine way to start taking action as an ally, can't stop there but that might be a fine thing to say, I support people from the LGBTQ plus community, I'm wearing the shirt.
Of course I'd like to see a whole lot more but that's a great starting starting point. Now someone else might be so far along on their journey and their comfort level and they have a lot more privilege maybe in the workplace that allows them to take more risk.
They might be doing more like, hey, we don't have any gender neutral bathrooms. Let's make some changes around here or our bereavement policies don't cover same sex partners. What can we be doing about that you see what I mean it's like you do different things based on where you are in the journey and, and what makes sense for what the kind of role you have and what kind of change you can put in place.
Yeah, I get it. And obviously, you got to find your people within your workplace and sometimes you have to work together with people who you may not think are down with you, if you will, you have to try to get in there and understand what the common goal might or might not be and we obviously see that, whether it is coming
together to fight a particular holiday that should be celebrated or honored, or maybe sometimes is even voting for we should celebrate birthdays or employee of the month. I just like you I used to work in a research company many moons ago.
One of the things that I saw was people very down you just sat down you were typing away, you never had a chance to connect. And that was my first kind of dip into changing culture and climate and I thought about the birthday song yes a lot of people don't celebrate you have to be mindful about people who might find this offensive.
The moral is you have to find a niche one way or the other to connect with a common goal and in this particular case, it sounded like the birthday was to celebrate, but in your example, it may take you and understanding what is our common goal and interest.
And if, yeah, maybe I do celebrate that once a year but that once a year may change the entire outlook of our company just by that one person stepping up, because that person may be the VP, it may be a person who really has a say, and didn't have the courage to know that there were common people
in there, really like that. Let's talk a little bit about how to describe the better allies approach to someone who's not familiar with it.
Yes, it's all about simple everyday actions to make a difference.
And then there are layers on top of it.
So the simple everyday actions you have been sharing a few of these ideas, you know how we can be more inclusive in meetings, or we, I'll just share a few other things beyond meetings, how we might advocate for
changing our application process for applying for jobs.
So that includes a link for that simply says, Hey, if you need any accommodations during your interview, please click here.
It may be advocating for sharing interview questions ahead of time so that people can actually show up to that interview and be prepared with really good representative answers for for their experience, as opposed to trying to trick them you know with like some like
a surprise questions or something.
It may be things like changing dress code, so that it is more inclusive of different religious practices, or different parts of culture that come into people's, you know, hairstyles and dress codes and stuff.
So making dress code changes, you know, there's so many things we can do. And some of them are super easy and that's like the their everyday actions we could be taking so I believe that that is part of the better allies approach, but then layered on top of that, I'll say you know kind of for
bonus points, the layer on top of that is, every time you take an action that might help just one person, think about the systemic change you might be able to advocate for to help more than one person.
So that's, that's the in a nutshell, what my, my approach is all about.
And you know what, just to like chime in a bit. When we first began to talk about coming together, you named it early, and we landed on listen, I'm willing to do anything, except that I need to be guaranteed that this will be available in some sort of transcript that anyone can
access and now we're starting to understand a bit of that, that I'm making a move for me. It's not that I can't listen, or not hear it, but I want to make sure that others that don't have that access this is very simple, but I'm adding in a group.
I'm adding in a family that's probably not involved and we want to get them involved really appreciate that and really stand up for things that really advocate for more than one person so this is small in in some ways but once again you never know you may be touching people from all around
the world Karen is such a treat transcripts.
I think most people and you and I may feel this way too is that transcripts are good for people who have any kind of hearing loss.
So that they can read along and everything, but it's not just people who with the hearing loss. There are so many other people who prefer to read versus listen they learn better that way.
Perhaps they are neuro distinct or have some other medical condition that just makes it easier for them to read versus listen. So by being more inclusive of one group people who have hearing loss.
Look at what we do with more inclusive of a whole lot more people so thank you for being open to my request to include a transcript on this I appreciate it.
Well listen you are talking my language because in the world that I live in with special education I make sure that my children are able to access.
Many of our learners just like you talked about, or visual learners, some of them just need sensory they need something in their hands in order to process information.
Take those breaks in between. You need someone to reread the directions for you may have to listen for something. You may need a space to do that so I am with you and truly understand the big part of understanding we all need to be on a level playing field really really.
And thankful for that and from now on I will offer that to guests just to make sure it is available if you may need it so big up to you into that movement.
How do you think about the hiring process to make it equitable and free of bias. Now listen, many of these places I often taught myself and say, I am glad that I've worked for women most of my life I really have had male bosses.
I've learned so much from women, and I really advocate and fight for women in different avenues I've done it for domestic violence I've done it through social and emotional learning and so on. But how do we make sure that these biases do not exist that if I'm entering a place, and it may look or feel, how can I ensure that that's not happen.
Well, I don't know if a candidate can ensure it but there are definitely things that an employer can do the hiring manager and the hiring team can do to mitigate bias.
We're all biased. It's just it's how our human beings are built we we do have biases based on our personal experience, our upbringing and so forth. They're there.
But here's some things that calm best practices that have been evolved evolving and being discussed in the, and the inclusive hiring space.
One is to use structured interviews and structured interviews means that you figure out ahead of time exactly what you are hiring for what are the skills that you're going to be looking for.
How are you going to assess them what are those questions, and then a rubric a standard rubric for evaluating candidates, because what can happen unfortunately is, you know, there's some candidate.
Listen, you're talking to two candidates, they're very equivalent but then once got this thing that you didn't even know you were looking for it's like, oh, they've done this.
I really like that. And by the way that person kind of looks like me they remind me of my younger self all of a sudden there's some bias right.
You want to pull that out. Hey, we never talked about how important that kind of you know volunteer experience or whatever it might be that this other candidate has, we never talked about the importance of that that's not important to this job so let's set that aside let's focus on what we already agreed to be interviewing
towards.
So that's a structured interview process and that can be really effective.
I'm going to share one other thing and this is, I think it's so simple, and it's just like people don't even know how don't know about it so they don't do it.
But it comes from Google. And Google is famous for they they measure everything everything that they do they measure and that includes all of the HR the hiring, all kinds of talent management things.
And what I found is that the simple act of reminding people of common biases that can occur during the interview process, the simple act of reminding them before they started interviewing a candidate was enough to mitigate much of the bias.
So you're about to interview someone and you get this hand down and says okay here are the common biases that people may face during our interviews.
And then you're more likely to be aware of your bias when you're interviewing and you take, you know, you change things you are less biased because you're like I don't want to be biased I want to give this candidate a fair shot.
So, there's some ideas.
Talk about structure that is structured to a T. I really do appreciate that there's opportunities to set up these interviews in a way that really lend to matching, but also thinking about how is this person not going to impact me.
How is this person going to impact the team, the people that we service. So really again, thank you for blessing us with that knowledge because I think it's ultra important to understand that we can only say the things that we do.
But to stand by them are really difficult we need allies in order to do that.
For the big part of this I'm ensuring that we're trying to think about different things that we can do to be supportive and this has been so amazing I do want to talk a little bit about your books.
Is there a particular book that we can dive into the really touch base but there's also is there a book for you, everyday actions to create inclusive engaging workplaces.
Talk to us about that process and how did this book become based on the others that you have written before.
Yeah, so the first one I wrote is called better allies and the byline the tagline is everyday actions to create inclusive engaging workplaces.
That's, that's the place to start if you are curious to learn more. It's sort of, yeah, it's it's it's the piece I wrote to lay it all out and cover all sorts of different workplace scenarios in terms of whether it's hiring onboarding.
So the meetings I talked about having off sites and being inclusive in those types of situations, promotion discussions kind of it's it's it's the full picture.
So that's the place to start.
I then, and all of this happens because people are like Karen did you ever think about X.
So, one of my good friends an old colleague of mine read better allies and he said hey Karen you know that chapter on hiring that could be a whole book and like, okay, so I wrote the better allies approach to hiring, where I basically took the chapter and expanded on it with a lot more so
if you are someone who does a lot of hiring, that's the book for you the better allies approach to hiring.
Okay, then I had a friend who works as a health care administrator she's a pediatrician who has moved into health care administration. She read better allies and she said, hey, Karen, this book.
You know you're, you have no health care experience but did you know your book is going to help me be a better provider of health care to my patients and make me a better administrator.
So thank you and I'm like, huh, maybe I should make a version just for health care. So I did I wrote belonging and health care which is very similar to my better allies book but it's filled with examples stories that are from the health care industry the health care professionals.
And then I wrote a workbook that's the fourth one the workbook is the better allies way, and it has literally exercises, prompts, things to fill in to think about how you could apply these allyship ideas these everyday actions to your workplace.
Hmm, we're friends like yours we don't need enemies, these people, books every time they see you, but bless them for that. I want to really think about what is for you when you're thinking about you wrote a book.
Let's say we talk about health care, because we had the better allies and hiring and then you go towards that area of being a health care provider.
So is your thought process in thinking about I need to be distinctive in that I'm thinking as a patient, or am I thinking as a provider do you go in with a different approach when you're going to write these pieces.
Well my approach with that was, again, my expertise is the workplace. So I wanted to talk people who are working in health care. So I interviewed doctors, nurses, physical therapists, administrators.
That kind of covers things. And literally, when what I did is I had a few questions but it was I recorded interviews with people just tell me about your experience.
Tell me about time things that happened that weren't inclusive. Tell me tell me tell me. And I just gathered stories.
And once I had a couple dozen of these of these interviews done in all these stories, I started looking for themes and thinking about how to fit them into my better allies approach.
This approach of, okay, this thing happened. What's the everyday action someone could take to make sure that doesn't happen again.
So those that that was the approach that was super fun. So I was not interviewing patients. I wasn't focused on actual patient care and that's a whole other topic of non inclusion where there's, for example, women's maternal health is, if you're a black woman, you're
more likely to have complications during your labor and delivery, higher chance you're going to die because of that.
And all of that might be based on some health care provider kind of actions that are being taken or not taken or research that's not being done in the space.
So that's a whole nother topic that I did not cover. I did not cover equitable care, but I covered the equitable workplace aspect.
And Jules, I'll just say one more thing here what's interesting to me though is I got feedback that told me, wait Karen, you don't understand, especially like in a clinic setting, maybe a clinic for people who are from marginalized underrepresented groups.
When those people come into a clinic for health care, if they don't see respect between the nurse and the doctors and everyone working there, they're less likely to actually follow the instructions they're less likely to fill those meds they need to do to set up that follow
up appointment to follow the doctors instructions. But when they see the respect that each other are the people are treating with each other with in that workplace, they're more likely to feel respected themselves and follow those instructions and follow up care
instructions. So, so anyway, I'll stop talking there. Hopefully I answered your question.
Yeah, you did and I really am thankful because you've had experience in so many areas and you're blessing us with information that I believe can really take us to different lengths of thought, but also of processes for me I'm sitting here, and I'm trying to wrap my head around all the
areas that you've been able to carry and to maintain our conversation like we're having now. I'm saying but man, is it that looking around to how groups and organizations have now shifted. They want you to know that they represent or stand for something.
You talked about the word respect. I'm looking at any hospital any dental care visit, and I'm seeing a lot of flowers a lot of that isn't really aesthetic to really say oh just for you to feel calm and pleasant.
There's a touch to that what does that represent. We want you to know that we are growing we want you to know that we are blossoming that we need water we also need light.
And I'm not here for me or things that are starting to hit and I'm like oh my god Karen, I don't want to make you write another book but man. I'm thinking about these things and saying, is it that that when people walk in to a place is like you giving it your own spin, if you will so
and these companies are trying to let us in. And that shift has happened, and I don't know when but now I'm taking a closer look to those things and saying, I really respect when someone is trying to add to the pot and making sure that everyone understands this is what we represent.
This is what we stand for.
What are what are some of the challenges for you in the workplace that you have seen that can probably happen and for some people who work in the same place for many years.
You know you go through things like a marriage ebbs and flows things are going a certain way sometimes they're good sometimes they're bad. What do you do to keep the spark and so on. But for you what has changed, whether it's procedures laws what is different now.
Well, politically there's a whole lot that's changed just you know and here we are recording this in December of 2024. And so I, you know I am concerned I'll just share with you that there is a growing backlash to anything that has to do around diversity and inclusion.
And it's, it makes it saddens me, but I'm still doing this work because I think that we need to create workplaces where everyone can do their best work and thrive, and I don't understand why people are against that but there are many people who are so there are headwinds that
are hard to face right now.
I always like to talk about practical things we can be doing. And, you know, and I think about your podcast jewels, you know, the labeling that can happen with people and this is what you're all about you know he's he's just a social worker he's just a whatever she's
just a whatever they're just a whatever that labeling is is very interesting to me. And that is certainly something that we see in workplaces everywhere. People get labeled a certain way. And one thing that's so interesting that happens is benevolent bias.
Benevolent bias is, okay that person is one of those a mother let's just say that person's a mother.
Therefore, I know what's best for mothers. And so I'm going to make a decision on her behalf. The decision maybe, you know, I'm not going to offer her that promotion because she's got young kids at home and doesn't have time for this extra responsibility.
I'm not going to give her the promotion because I'm a good person and I'm kind and I'm going to help her be able to spend more time with her kids.
And that's a real thing. That's benevolent sexism. There's benevolent ableism. Oh, I know it's right for that person with a disability. You know, yeah we co authored that important paper but I'll go presented at the conference so you don't have to to fly there and worry about the airline damaging your wheelchair.
I'll take care of you you do this. That's benevolent ableism I know it's best for you and I'm such a good person I'm going to take care of it.
The example of benevolent bias is benevolent ageism. Oh, we're rolling out this new technology to our company. We better make sure Walt, who happens to be the oldest guy in the team, we better make sure Walt has that extra training so that he understands how to use it like assuming
people don't get technology right. So this is something you know you asked about some of the challenges that happen in the workplace this is this happens, and it's so challenging because people are doing it from a good place in their heart, but they're causing damage.
And it's all about the labels the assumptions we make and how we need to get beyond that and actually have conversations get to know people and understand how they might need to be helped what kind of assistance they might need or not and take that as a cue for us as people who want to be better allies.
Me as a person I've always respected, whether it is the boss, the highest boss of CEOs to the custodian to the person who just says hello.
I really take that very seriously because at the end of the day is always around team for me and how we do this.
So you're blessing us with information that is really tangible but really hurts to still listen to because a lot of what you're saying is, I've put this work in but I'm going to do you a favor and not put you through more, you know, tiring and hours.
Because I know how you feel so I'm going to step up for you so let's all listen let's let's put our ears closer in our hearts and our minds where they should be and ask the question, can you help me lead this, as opposed to taking the charge.
I want to ask you a little bit about what is a good way to support your work and I was thinking about another friend of mine with rebel health to support groups that happen to be disruptors to be initiators to be leaders what are ways that we can be allies to move this work forward.
Well, literally to support me. I have people are interested in any of my books that helps me do the work I do for free to get the word out, as well as you get to learn some things and perhaps bring it to your workplace.
I'm host a book club. I've got discussion guides on my website, which is better allies.com to kind of make it easy so it's not a lot of work to prepare to lead a book club discussion. I make it easy for you with some discussion guides.
And the last thing I'll say is sign up for my free newsletter. I don't get any money for that, but that will help you start learning more wherever you are on this journey starting learning more about things you could be doing to make a difference.
And I do track my my numbers of course of my newsletter. It makes me happy when they go up. So that that helps me but really I write that to help other people and I, I would love to see it grow even beyond what I've been doing so far.
Talked about biases. Let's talk about some common micro aggressions that may happen in the workplace. How can you address them because they still happen in school in classrooms and so on.
Yeah, it's a little bit about the workplace. Yeah, well give me an example of something that happens in a school setting that you see and let's let's see if I can answer that.
If we are just talking about a teacher calling it hey guys, everyone's ready. You know, hey guys, I have the answer. What do you guys think about this and again, it's just coming off as common compensation, but it really impacts the whole.
It really hits identity it really hits people who may have triggered by that word and don't like that word. And how we address that so those those are things that happen often and easy, because people don't notice that that common or easy language for them can impact.
Yeah. So this is this is a great example. There's one strategy. It's probably my favorite with language, but other things too when we want to point out someone's just said something that's not very inclusive.
Hey guys, the strategy is seek common ground and then educate seek common ground with someone. Hey, I used to say that all the time I used to call people guys I grew up in Rhode Island and we use that all the time to talk about people hey guys.
Actually, it's often hey use guys. That's seeking common ground. I used to say that too. And then you educate. Hey, but I since learned that many people who aren't men don't think they're part of that guys collective.
And there are so many words we could be using instead.
Like all y'all, or folks or some other word the English language is so rich.
Okay, so with my many micro aggressions we can do that seek common ground and educate. I used to do that too. I used to say that too but here's what I've learned and here's some alternatives little micro teaching.
Some of the pieces I still see as well. You know, here is a disclaimer I'm about to share that some of the images you may see here, maybe disturbing to others and you still play it.
I'll ask anyone to really say can I get an out card here like what are we really going to start watching here before we even go there. So these are the things that sometimes we assume is best interest but once again, we lay the groundwork for something that could go terribly bad really fast.
Yep, definitely. And with that type of thing to it could be. I don't know the exact setting but it could be that you want to review an organizations or groups values about things and make sure that anything that is presented shown fits those values so there might be an
opportunity not just to give feedback to the one person who might do that but to really think about how to be more inclusive with every presentation or set of videos or imagery that that might be shared.
And, you know, sometimes it's important to share exact imagery that might be disturbing and so giving people an out I think is great. But then it's also like, isn't this, is there anything that could be shown instead and have this have the same educational impact, you know, like you
could do the work and see if there isn't something else as opposed to just relying on that one example that you may have come across. So anyway, look for more inclusive alternatives as allies ourselves but maybe there's something that could be done to set a more inclusive standard moving forward.
Let's talk about trying to walk on in the work environment how can we encourage coworkers to feel respected and supported you know in some areas that they are underrepresented.
So it's, I, in my work on Better Allies, I am all about the work should be done by the people who have the privilege.
And we're not trying to change we're trying to make things more inclusive for everybody, but we're not trying to change someone so I don't know how to answer your question how to make someone feel more respected like telling them to feel, there is, feel respect
No, I don't know if that's what you're saying but it's more that there are things we can be doing to make sure that they feel that respect that their voice matters that they are welcome in conversations that they are invited to social events or meetings with you know some very important person that just got hired or her might be visiting.
We can look out at who might be missing from invitations from conversations and bring them in.
I'll say one more thing too is we should be amplifying amplifying as much as we can.
The, the great work someone's done. I recently wrote in my newsletter about the, the T up.
Hey, Jules, come over here tell everyone about the amazing meeting you ran yesterday for our parents or whatever it might be right. Hey, that's a T up I'm team you up to brag about yourself. That's another way we can make sure that we are amplifying people.
So look out for those opportunities for amplifying in your workplace whatever that might look like neighborhoods I'm from that's given someone to alley you and recognize them for their contributions.
Make sure that they're lifted up for the things that they are doing. What is next for you friend now that you have sought out so much is there more that you still want to do and what are those plans look like.
Yeah.
So, like many people I have conversations on New Year's Eve about like New Year's resolutions for the coming year. In the last two years. I have said to my husband is amazing I say, I am my resolution is to not write another book.
And I kept that one year and I broke it the next. So, you know, I don't have plans to write another book at this point. What I am, you know, wanting to do is to keep reaching people to grow the people I am talking to, to make sure that people have the tools and
information to help them be better allies because given what's happening with the polarization in our country. I just think that we need to double down on being inclusive being kind, looking out for other people getting to know people who are different
from us, breaking the stereotypes that we might have in our head and creating, you know, creating this beautiful place where everyone can live wonderful lives.
And be successful.
In the role of education we often see teacher burnout as one of the biggest kind of, you know, turn around as a teacher really struggle with a tough class or something to that effect.
What, what roles does allyship play in supporting the career growth of employees from, you know, marginalized groups.
Well, one thing I like I wonder, do you know, and I don't mean to put this on you but do people do administrators understand what the causes of burnout are.
Are they measuring that are they tracking it are they doing exit interviews when people are leaving because of burnout or getting ahead of that and understanding what the causes of burnout are in that setting and that school in that situation.
That's something allies can do, if it's not already happening is really like we need to understand the root cause of some of this burnout and see what we can be doing to address it.
If it is, you said career growth I mean to me that's related but also separate than burnout. You can't grow your career if you're burned out sure but there are many other things we could be doing to support career growth that have nothing to do with burnout right I mean so I don't.
I'm talking around the top. No, no, no, and it does make sense and maybe just laying it that way where one of the reasons why I'm going to leave this because I don't.
I'm not progressing I'm not going forward.
Yeah, well I'm burned out because I'm coming here every day give them my all what appears to be my hundred fifty percent, and I'm not getting nothing in return they they don't promote they don't do anything within those lines so yeah that does make a lot of sense to me because when we are talking
about you know in education is it the evaluation process is it you know to stay and get tenured is it areas around people not putting enough work into their craft that stops them.
Is it multiple ways of getting more money that they need to go back to school to get more money so there's areas that can stop you because these are just challenges, but in the mindset that I'm thinking about what are the ways that sometimes people talk themselves into it.
They say look, no matter what whether it's school, whether it's working in our car company, it's still the same thing I want to see myself grow and progress.
If I don't see myself like this in three years five years.
This is not working out.
These are the things that commonly happen so I was thinking about those things.
I mean, you have seen so many people and you've been in so many places around the world and you're in your writing you you you touch people from all walks of life.
Is there a like a story.
Is there a person you think about when you're creating some of this advocacy work or things that really motivate you to stay empowered in this work.
Can you think of a story that you can share with us that really motivates you to just be you.
Yeah, there are so many, but I'll share, I'll share one and it's related to the burnout as well.
There's someone I know who is from an underrepresented group, racial identity, and they are a first generation in their family to be born in the United States their parents are immigrants, first gen to go to college.
First gen to have a professional job.
And talking to this person, I realize there's so much that this, this person just didn't grow up around and doesn't know about navigating a professional situation.
One very specific example.
He, he got feedback that he needed to dress more professionally.
Well professionalism that's a whole biased area because what does that even mean. So we asked like what is the dress code. Well we don't have a dress code you just have to dress more professionally.
So he's like, okay, what do I do is that mean I have to wear a suit. I don't see anyone else wearing suits, I guess, does it mean I need to wear a collared shirt okay I can do that.
But it was just so vague.
Another example of this person.
He, he was interviewing for a new job, and was thinking about negotiating the salary and asking me for some advice.
And I said, Well, what do you what do you want he's like, Well, this is, you know, I got laid off for my last job so I want to earn at least as much as my last job and I'm like, Wait a second, this is a lot more responsibilities like yeah that's okay I just want to earn as much as my last job I'm like, No, it's more responsibility same industry you should be getting
me. He's like, Well, maybe I'll just ask for a gas card for the miles I have to do. Oh yeah you're going to ask for a gas card for the miles. And let's talk about what it would look like because of this increased responsibility.
He didn't, he wasn't aware that he could negotiate the actual salary he was just going to be happy with what they got him as long as it was as much as he earned in this lesson.
So those are examples of how mentoring can really make a difference for someone who doesn't have that built in. Now, my husband and I both work in tech.
Our children, they come to us with any workplace question they are constantly getting our mentorship which is great they're they're in their 20s it's it's lovely that they want our advice.
We're here for them, but not everyone has someone with that kind of experience in their family that they can count on and I think as allies when we realize that we can demystify a lot about what success looks like we can demystify what it might mean to address professionally, but also what is the whole
progression. How do you get a promotion here how do you earn more money. What is that what does that look like what's it going to take, we can help demystify that share what we know and help someone grow their career.
I really love that you brought in multiple ways and layered ways to understand the mindset. A lot of times we take advice and it's, and it's who the information comes from that really hits us hard. If it's a person that we know as a supervisor manager, it can be
difficult that first time that you get hit with that you can remember how your skin you get goosebumps your heart starts racing. It's very sad to think. Wow, did he or she just say something that was offensive.
There's something wrong and now you're in your head. Next, probably common common factor or feedback or or share out that comes out. You get that same feeling again and now it becomes really difficult for you to really like be yourself now because you're
just not like me and now it becomes something that can spiral. So we have to be mindful to also understand and listen out to what those things are. And maybe this question here can help us understand when when we're thinking about addressing someone who unintentionally
uses some non inclusive or like harmful language. How do we protect ourselves from that.
Well as better allies I don't think we do protect ourselves. You know we want to, we want to address it we want to point it out we want to speak up and do that work.
Now if we're also, here's the thing. If we're like let's say someone made a sexist joke, and I, I hear it, and it's disparaging of women.
I say something about that. I suffer a likeability penalties like yeah what you know just aren't you funny. What can't we joke about this anymore like whatever.
But if a man who heard it speaks up, he can set the record straight he can be the better ally he can push back in a very different way.
Because people who are better allies look out for the offensive jokes the non inclusive language the whatever, and speak up so that the person, I mean if the person from the underrepresented group who's marginalized and offended or degraded by that comment or
joke. If they say something great don't don't interrupt them don't stop them, but realize that you have a role to play to create a more inclusive culture.
By the way, I think that especially with non offensive or with offensive jokes, we should keep something in our back pocket that we can just pull out like the favorite phrase memorize some phrase that you're going to use whenever someone tells a joke that is offensive of some
group. Some examples are things like, hey, I don't get the joke will you explain it to me. You know, like to get someone to really have to confront their bias, or, hey, I love a good joke, but that wasn't funny.
Or simply the word, ouch, like, what did you just say ouch, which sends a message. I am not cool with what you just said and don't do it again, you know that kind of thing so memorized phrase that you might think of using and be ready to pull it out the next
time you hear a joke like that. Karen has been a treat having you on our show. I plan to have your books on my website and the links will be available so people can support your work.
And again, I am so happy and proud that because of you now, I will be having transcripts for this show and maybe others do not care to have it or not but to offer that possibility where I think that a lot of the platforms do look for that.
And when I started searching, you hit about, you find out that you can just click on something and it gives you that option. So look for that. And it's only not for the hearing impaired as we learned is also for people who just find it easier to read something, as opposed to letting it be said to them.
Well, you are awesome. Thank you for having me on. I've loved our conversation.
Back at you but before we let you go the floor is yours. Tell us what you want us to remember about you the movement and the next steps in the allies movement. Yeah.
Okay folks, so I know there are things you could be doing every day that maybe you just haven't learned about yet, or you don't have the right language to use or whatever.
There are things you could be doing to make a difference to someone you work with if not many people you work with who are from these marginalized overlooked underestimated groups.
And so please consider subscribing to my newsletter. It's free. It's one email a week that you will get and you'll I guarantee you'll get some ideas, at least one a week if not five that you can put into place and be a better ally.
Let's be that better ally Karen so much. Thanks to you and we learned so much today. You know they say that mountain tops are the epitome of one's incredible journey.
Yeah, most times we forget the backstory, the lost pebbles, the shapes of the rocks, the slippages in the sides, you know, they setbacks and all they are the true triumphs.
This is what I call the peaks and valleys, because on this platform it was built because way too often as people, we were overlooked or labeled.
But this is no longer our plight and our fight is for anyone and everyone who feels a need to be understood. We are strong as individuals, but unstoppable when we unite.
Tune in friends to another he's just a social worker show coming to another town near you real soon. We're out. Karen. Thank you so much friend for a lovely show. Thank you, Jules.
Please note that the views expressed here are my own and not a representation of my employers and clients.
Thank you for listening. We're always here for you. Just message us and we'll get back to you within 24 hours. Thank you more than just at he's just a social worker.
In memory of my mother, Matilde de la Rosa. This is dedicated to you, mom. Miss you so much.
Thank you.