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I believe that the real prospects for any kind of renewal of the radical left in South Korea,

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and I think this is true in virtually every major capitalist country,

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is a great internationalization of perspectives,

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because the recovery of the South Korean economy since 2008

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has largely been based on economic dealings with China.

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There are 4,000 South Korean firms invested in China,

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and China has now replaced the United States as the main trading partner of South Korea,

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and it has replaced the United States as the main trading partner of Japan.

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So there's a certain kind of momentum,

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I do not want to be over-hasty about this,

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but sort of a decoupling, maybe that's not the term I want to use,

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from an American-centered, export-oriented kind of economic strategy to something more Asia-centered.

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I believe it's in that context that the workers movement itself really has to link up with,

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in the Korean case, with Japanese workers,

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and now, for example, with these recent very interesting strikes in June in China,

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to the extent it's possible with Chinese workers.

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That's a difficult road to hoe, because you can't just go to China and say,

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where's the nearest union office?

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Because the official unions, of course, are almost entirely controlled by the government,

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and would frown on such overtures.

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But nevertheless, those kinds of connections are developing.

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I've been speaking with Lauren Goldner.

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He is the author of a number of books, including most recently,

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Herman Melville, Between Charlemagne and the anti-Mozart Cosmic Man Race Class,

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and The Crisis of Bourgeois Ideology, an American Renaissance writer.

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He's also the editor of a new online journal called Insurgent Notes,

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and we also have a link to that.

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Thank you so much, Lauren, for being on the program.

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Oh, it's been great.

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Hello, folks, and welcome to the Antifada.

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Today, we have a very special show.

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One of our good friends, comrades, and mentors, Lauren Goldner,

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has passed away this previous weekend.

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A legend within the communist milieu,

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a theorist inspired by left-wing extremists,

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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a

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by many others, as we'll be talking about on this episode-

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and the last of the professional revolutionaries.

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A man who lived all over the globe,

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a man who was part and parcel of the theorization of struggles

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from California to New York to South Korea, to China, Africa, Europe, and elsewhere.

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Lauren Goldner was an incredible figure.

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And as you'll see it on this episode,

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We're gonna have a bunch of his friends together here to reminisce to talk about his thought

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to talk about his theory and how they helped all of us with our development and also just to celebrate the life of a man who was

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truly kind and generous with his own time and

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Just a good friend to us all so welcome to the Antifada

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Lauren Goldner Memorial episode and do you want to talk a little bit about the goings-on on this episode?

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Sure, so I didn't know Lauren as well as you did Sean

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But I had seen him talk a couple times and I've read a lot of what is available on his site break their haughty power

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And on libcom and he's one of the best writers of our milieu. He puts things very clearly

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very emphatically and

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Just going over some of his stuff in the last few days after I heard the news

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It's already been incredibly refreshing and helpful

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He was very incisive about social movements. He's got a great essay about

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Seattle in 99 about occupy

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like you said he was writing about the strikes in South Korea about the

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more recent labor movements in China and this is just

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Some of his work over the last 10 20 years and he had been working

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Since the 60s as far as far as I know, I think he deboard mentions him at some point

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He had been relevant for that long

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So I'm gonna probably hang back on this episode since I didn't know him quite as well as everybody else

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but we have some of his friends and comrades from insurgent notes from capital reading groups and other places and

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really glad you could all join us and tell us more about Lauren and

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Point our listeners in the direction of getting acquainted with his work. Yeah, if I could start with my reminisces

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Reminiscences I first met Lauren. I think at around the same time. I met a lot of the folks who are gonna be on this podcast

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which was the immediate aftermath of the great financial crisis a moment in time where

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There was a real rebirth of the critique of political economy aspect of Marx's thought

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Whereas before you know was very academic. It seemed very very real to all of us

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Lauren was living in New York City at the time and I believe Billy might have been at this meeting and Jared might have been too

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But he called a meeting and we all met at the Brecht forum rest in peace, which was like a sort of popular front

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Stalinist

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Meeting center that existed

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I think going all the way back to the boomer period on the west side of Manhattan and we sat down and

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Lauren kind of led the discussion and we

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other a reading list and the idea of this group was to kind of have a

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recomposition of

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Marxist forces within New York City that could try to do a reading group and do theory to try to take from the past what was

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Necessary to understand in that present Lauren and I

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After that group we had had some meetings

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We had crossed each other's paths many many times after that. He was always very kind to me. He

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No matter how advanced you were. I think with your theory or your history or whatever

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He was always very very generous with his time and with his energy

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If you ever had a question you can email him if you ran into him at a party or something like that

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He would be glad to talk your ear off about whatever subject

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It was that you were interested in that particular time and so in a social sense interpersonal sense

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Just an extremely lovely man and a great friend. I would say and

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As a mentor and a comrade just somebody who who lasted through some of the toughest times

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I think on the and on the left communist or ultra left Mill you a man who kind of

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You know cut his teeth in the heyday of boomers 60 radical at 60s radicalism and

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Spent the rest of his life carving a different path from the sort of third worldest

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Marxist Leninist Maoist way that much of his generation went all the way back in the 60s and 70s

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He was already critiquing that and kind of bringing to earth and holding on to important nuclei of

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communist theory like Bordiga like Kamat translating things and making sure that this

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current of

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Marxist theory and practice

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Which we call the ultra left Mill you or we call left communism councilism Bordigas

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I had a life in the English speaking world

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Far but far in in times like way previous to when we all know like the Bordiga means and stuff

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Lauren Goldner was working with this heavy theory and making it accessible to everybody so in terms of

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You know how how I would summarize his legacy to me. It was somebody who is a real exemplar. I think of

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What a true revolutionary should be which is a kind of gloomy

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revolutionary should be which is a kind of glue that holds people together a

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Mentor that will bring people along help them to understand the world and also an open-minded person who could go everywhere from

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volume two of capital to understanding the works of Herman

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Melville in terms of the birth of the modern world the 1848

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Revolutions and and everything like that. So a real Renaissance man on the communist left and that's what I have to say

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So we've got a bunch of people on the call. A lot of people our listeners will be familiar with

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from past episodes and that's no coincidence because Lauren was a mentor and you know had

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brought together a lot of the people who are influential to Sean and I and

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Of course who we've had on the show for that reason

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So what he who would like to to speak first and maybe give us a little bit of a background on either how they know

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Lauren or or Lauren's life or his thought? John, I think you had a like a biological

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Series of biographical sketches right that you had found earlier

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Yeah, I you know like everybody like on on here and just I got got a lot of texts actually from folks

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Being in shock that Lauren passed away

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You know, he was ill for some time

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but I think it's a shock because as

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You know Andy and Sean have talked about it. I think you know Lauren was a big mentor for a lot of us

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You know younger revolutionaries. I use younger broadly

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We're all

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But kind of that post occupy

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Generation well the occupied generation right who were really shaped by a very particular

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Very particular material conditions that being the rise of what you know Lauren spent a lot of time talking about was

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Fictitious capital right and why that was really important to understand in terms of you know, how that would

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Reflect the kind of struggles we would see the kind of struggles we could anticipate participating in

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Why a lot of the social movements that you know, the old socialist parties

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Kept, you know hitting their head against was no longer working right? So I think you know Lauren was a really indispensable

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Mentor for all of us and like many of that generation really

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Really friendly very much approachable someone who always made a lot of time

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For you know for us, but yeah to just give a brief

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Like biographical sketch. So Lauren was 76. His birthday was in October. He was a Libra, which we texted about at one point

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But he was also a revolutionary right brought born in October

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He was born in Berkeley, California. His dad was a professor and I think at some point he also lived in Bowling Green, Ohio

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But he you know, he really kind of grew up in the Bay Area

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So he was really involved in you know, a lot of the

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You know political upheavals of the late 60s

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And I think you know, he has this really interesting article that I sent to Sean as well

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That hopefully readers will check out that talks a little bit about his political upbringing

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But he says, you know, he went to Berkeley to pursue his studies and he found himself in the middle

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Of all of these movements right and having to deal with um, you know

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Kind of the Maoist left, uh the broad socialist left and at that time, you know

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People were in that sense choosing sides and um, this was also the time of a lot of

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You know like black people who were in the middle of the movement

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And so he had a lot of

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You know like black radicalism the panthers, right?

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So he found his home in these independent socialist sects that were quite critical of Stalinism

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And even though he would remain critical of Trotsky throughout his life

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I think he appreciated a lot of Trotskyist critique of Stalin

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So this is all to say he kind of really comes out of that 68 arc

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Berkeley that he found the situationist,

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the kind of like the French left

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and was really beginning his political developments,

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kind of become a main ultra leftist.

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And I thought what was interesting about Goldner's life

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is that he had this really cushy job

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at the Harvard Center for European studies,

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which I think at the time had its own library.

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So he really spent his day like reading,

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talking about books, writing until the mid 90s.

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And then when he got laid off,

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he had to figure out what to do, right?

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So at this time he makes his way to South Korea

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to teach English.

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And for a few years he's back and forth to South Korea

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and he's also traveling to other parts of the world.

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And what I got from talking to some folks

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is that wherever he went,

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he was really clear about making connections

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with working class struggles.

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And those were connections and comrades

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that he would maintain relationships for his entire life.

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And then afterwards when he returned,

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he kind of settled into Brooklyn and in New York.

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A very short story, my personal,

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and I'll give it up to other people

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is I met Goldner in 2015, I believe.

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This was during around post like occupied time.

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And this was, I don't know if you guys remember

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this is when he was giving those talks at Wendy's.

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I know, right?

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Like what a place.

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So I met him through folks in the New York scene

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and I was really taken by Lauren

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because he was not somebody

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that could just talk to you about politics.

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He could talk to you about anything.

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So we talked a lot about music, art, his life, the world.

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And I think he took special interest

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because being Albanian,

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we were really the last existing socialist country

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and quite Stalinist.

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So I know he had a lot of stuff to say about that,

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but yeah, I'll give it to other folks to share.

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Yeah, thank you for that.

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Who wants to go next?

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Yeah, thank you, Jonah.

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That's really eye-opening.

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I remember Lauren telling me a story

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about being in Berkeley in the 60s.

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Of course, I'm Billy O'Connor, long time,

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New York Capitol reading group alumni, law alumnus.

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And Lauren told me a story

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about being in Berkeley in the 60s,

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wheat pasting posters to a wall and getting arrested.

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The posters he was wheat pasting said,

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CPUSA are police informants.

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And the cops were like, wait, what?

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He's like, wheat pasting these posters that say,

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the American communist party are police informants.

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So just by way of a slight, a short biographical anecdote

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and to establish his left-com bona fides, I guess.

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But that was an excellent biography, Jonah, thank you.

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I met Lauren around the same time as Sean.

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I was at that Brecht meeting

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and I remember going to him shortly after that

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and telling him, yeah, I had gone down to Katrina

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with the disaster relief and I just was very disillusioned

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by the whole scene here in the US, frankly.

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And I told Lauren, I just don't have any faith

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in this American working class anymore.

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I just don't think they're ever gonna

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get anything done revolutionary wise.

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And he told me a story about this Catholic priest

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who went to his Bishop and said,

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I just don't believe in any of this stuff anymore.

238
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,560
I don't believe any of it.

239
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,800
And I have parishioners who count on me, who look up to me.

240
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,840
What am I gonna do?

241
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,560
And the Bishop leaned into him and he said, fake it.

242
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,560
And from then on, I always called Lauren the Bishop

243
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,880
and addressed him as your grace

244
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,680
whenever nobody else was listening.

245
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,800
But you're not recording any of this, are you?

246
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,120
God all-polling.

247
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,600
So that was that, I don't care.

248
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,280
He looked at me like, I don't care if you believe in it.

249
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,360
Just keep coming to the readings.

250
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,280
It was a real turning point in my life.

251
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,280
And I'm still out here thinking it less,

252
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,280
but I'll always think of Lauren as the Bishop

253
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,120
for that reason.

254
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,560
The following year, 2009, a small auto parts plant

255
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,520
south of Seoul called Sangnyong announced

256
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,360
1,500, 2,000 layoffs out of a workforce of 6,000.

257
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,840
And they had already been downsized

258
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,840
from about 8,000 a few years before.

259
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,400
Interestingly, this firm was ultimately owned

260
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,520
by a Chinese automotive company.

261
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,720
The general idea was that the Chinese automotive company

262
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,920
really just wanted to shut down Sangnyong

263
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,480
and take the equipment and move it to China.

264
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,720
They were restructuring, laying people off,

265
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,840
and then they announced these massive layoffs

266
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,440
and those who were on the list to be laid off occupied.

267
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,000
And they held the factory for 77 days.

268
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,320
Some workers who were not laid off also joined them.

269
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,640
And the local union president stayed in

270
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,720
for the entire 77 days.

271
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,720
And they, after about four weeks, the police attacked

272
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,720
and then finally even units of the army were involved

273
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,440
in the final assault of Sangnyong.

274
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,320
If you do, if you search it on the internet,

275
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,280
I presume you can still find these video clips

276
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,320
of military helicopters flying over the plant,

277
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,720
dropping tear gas that had a special chemical element

278
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,720
that burned the skin.

279
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,960
They had cut off the water and finally even the electricity.

280
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,800
They were very concerned because there was

281
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,720
a huge paint department.

282
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,480
And once they turned off the electricity,

283
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,920
there was a greatly increased possibility of fire

284
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,440
in that part of the factory.

285
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,400
And the workers just sort of fought tooth and nail

286
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,320
right up to the end until they were all trapped

287
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,160
in one part of the factory, surrounded by thousands

288
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,040
of riot police and soldiers, and they finally caved.

289
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,160
Yeah, I'd studied in, not studied, but taught

290
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,640
in South Korea.

291
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,120
And one thing about Lauren is, you could never tell him

292
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,640
you went to a place or wanted to go to a place

293
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,680
or thought about a place, unless you wanted him

294
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,120
to get you involved in some revolutionary work

295
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,560
at that place.

296
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,360
Because I told him, yeah, I used to study Korean

297
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:02,360
and for some reason, when I was in the military,

298
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,800
the Korean language.

299
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,280
And he said, oh, that's fantastic.

300
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,320
And he had a whole list of groups and people

301
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,480
in South Korea, South Korean communists

302
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:12,720
who have to remain nameless.

303
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,880
I think they still have the death penalty on the books

304
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,920
in South Korea for being a communist.

305
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,520
But they need some help.

306
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,520
They need some help setting up their website

307
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,360
and this and that.

308
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,280
And he knew I had done a lot of computer work,

309
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,200
software development work in the 90s.

310
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,640
So you never told Lauren you knew about a place

311
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,480
or you thought about a place,

312
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,320
because you're working in that place.

313
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:33,640
As soon as you told him.

314
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,600
He'd send you to Brazil, South Korea, and he did.

315
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,080
And I met a lot of people and learned a lot of languages

316
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,520
hanging around with Lauren Goldner, as you would.

317
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,440
Greetings.

318
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,680
Yeah, I'll go.

319
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,240
Me, my name is Ari Azahedi.

320
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,080
I known all of you for quite some time.

321
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,280
And yeah, I've been really trying to think

322
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,880
since I got the news, how to sort of organize my thoughts.

323
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,880
Lauren Goldner was a very big influence on my thought

324
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,240
and in a number of ways that I'll talk about.

325
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,240
I think first off, just to say that he will certainly

326
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,440
be missed and that his presence and now him being gone,

327
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,160
there's definitely a kind of a void, at least for me.

328
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,440
He was sick for a while.

329
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,440
So just his kind of pulling back as things started

330
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,440
to get worse was already a bit of a empty space.

331
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,880
And I think that it just reminds me also again,

332
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,720
and apart from him personally, like how I'll miss him

333
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,280
personally besides his intellectual and revolutionary

334
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,280
and all of that, just on a personal friend level,

335
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,480
I'll certainly miss him.

336
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,920
I think getting back to this political level,

337
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,920
he was very much of or cut his teeth on the 1968 generation.

338
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,040
Janna just really, I think pointed out a lot of things

339
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,040
like that, that we have to really appreciate

340
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,040
that connection and I think as time goes on,

341
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,840
those kind of connections are sort of breaking a bit.

342
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,680
Like many people of that generation,

343
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,680
he became politicized as Janna said at Berkeley,

344
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,640
but through SDS, Students for a Democratic Society,

345
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,640
which in the late 1960s was the largest campus organization.

346
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,680
And then I think he was involved

347
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,280
with the International Socialist Faction of SDS,

348
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,280
which is Trotskyist faction that didn't accept

349
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,400
the Soviet Union as a socialist country.

350
00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:17,880
They had their own sort of version of kind of

351
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,280
some kind of state capitalists thesis.

352
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,880
Somebody else might be able to fill in the blanks

353
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,860
on that for me, then went into that.

354
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,600
And something really interesting,

355
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,080
he selected to point out about how he was always

356
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,400
sort of wrong place at the wrong time.

357
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,520
He was in Paris in April of 1968,

358
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,720
Martin Luther King is assassinated.

359
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,560
He says, the revolution is about to kick off

360
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,640
in the United States, I need to get back.

361
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,720
And he comes back to the United States

362
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,240
and May 68 is just a few weeks later,

363
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,280
and he had a number of stories like that.

364
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,920
For me personally, I met Lauren Goldner,

365
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,060
sure it was right after I moved to New York City,

366
00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:08,800
which was around 2007, I moved to New York City

367
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,800
and I met Lauren, I would think it's sometime around the crash.

368
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,160
So shortly after that, but it was certainly before Occupy

369
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,760
around maybe 2008, 2009.

370
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,920
And first time I met him was at a talk he gave

371
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,560
on fictitious capital at the CUNY Grad Center.

372
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:31,840
And then shortly afterwards,

373
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,120
I heard he had a capital reading group.

374
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,320
And I don't remember, it was so long ago,

375
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,360
this capital reading group,

376
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,960
Billy, I think that's where we may have met.

377
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,000
You may have been in that one,

378
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,560
which was in, I don't even know,

379
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,000
it was some union hall in Midtown somewhere

380
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,600
that you had to take a freight elevator up and go in,

381
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,560
couldn't point it out now.

382
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,960
And it was out of that reading group

383
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,400
that the basis of what became Insurgent Notes came out of.

384
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,720
And I know Insurgent Notes existed when Occupy happened

385
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,760
because we already had literature for it and all that.

386
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,020
I get the sort of dates if somebody can fill it out.

387
00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:17,020
So, you know, I was, from then on,

388
00:24:17,660 --> 00:24:20,380
I mean, from the time we had the capital study group,

389
00:24:20,380 --> 00:24:23,740
he and I just kind of really hit it off

390
00:24:23,740 --> 00:24:25,900
in terms of friendship, intellectual interests,

391
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:27,300
things of that nature.

392
00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:33,380
And a few ways that I think he really influenced me

393
00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:39,100
and we really kind of clicked on,

394
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:41,540
I've tried to just sort of collect my thoughts.

395
00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:46,540
One thing is that we have to remember the era

396
00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:51,180
before the 2008, 2009 crash

397
00:24:51,180 --> 00:24:53,740
and after the fall of the Soviet Union

398
00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:58,000
was not very encouraging for the study of capitalism

399
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,980
generally, let alone Marxist theory.

400
00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:06,980
And Lauren was one who really was a bit immune

401
00:25:07,060 --> 00:25:10,940
from whatever was the intellectual fashion at the time,

402
00:25:10,940 --> 00:25:13,420
for better or for worse sometimes.

403
00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:18,420
But it was his insistence that this is just temporary.

404
00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:24,220
Once again, the critique of political economy

405
00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:25,060
will see the importance,

406
00:25:25,060 --> 00:25:27,660
and his insistence on the importance

407
00:25:27,660 --> 00:25:31,140
of the critique of political economy as he believed,

408
00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:32,840
and I think he was correct in his analysis

409
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,940
and Marx understood it, was still the key

410
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:39,580
for us to understand the world around us.

411
00:25:39,580 --> 00:25:43,820
Not the only one, it is not in and of itself sufficient,

412
00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:46,140
but it is indispensable.

413
00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:51,140
And his insistence on that and Marxism as a critique,

414
00:25:51,340 --> 00:25:56,340
not as an ideology, was something that really attracted me

415
00:25:56,820 --> 00:26:00,540
to his way of thinking at a time when,

416
00:26:00,540 --> 00:26:01,960
I mean, people who held that view,

417
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,300
a lot of them were dead, they were thinkers

418
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:07,840
of the critical theory of the past

419
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,780
and of the sort of communist tendencies,

420
00:26:09,780 --> 00:26:12,140
minoritarian communist tendencies of the past.

421
00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:18,220
And stemming from that is the insistence

422
00:26:18,980 --> 00:26:23,700
that alienation is the pillar on which

423
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:25,940
that critique of political economy is based.

424
00:26:25,940 --> 00:26:30,540
That's something he and I really used to talk about

425
00:26:30,540 --> 00:26:35,540
all the time, and I'm sure all of you can affirm this

426
00:26:35,540 --> 00:26:40,540
of how he could just open chapter, verse, capital,

427
00:26:40,540 --> 00:26:43,860
and be like, here it is, this is the it.

428
00:26:43,860 --> 00:26:47,300
And that was always easy, because he was such a source.

429
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:49,180
I'd be like, Lauren, this is what I'm doing,

430
00:26:49,180 --> 00:26:50,660
and he would just open the book,

431
00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:52,900
and be like, this is the quote you need right here.

432
00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:57,960
And then even more directly in terms of my own work,

433
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,960
I think two things that were key that I built upon,

434
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,920
even though, by the way, we did have our disagreements,

435
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,080
but these were the things that I felt

436
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:13,080
we both really were trying to develop theoretically,

437
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,800
and what was a basis of our intellectual relationship,

438
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,760
at least, was one was the theory of imperialism

439
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,680
and how to understand imperialism today,

440
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,680
and the critique of what we call

441
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,820
the ideology of anti-imperialism,

442
00:27:30,820 --> 00:27:32,840
not the struggle against imperialism,

443
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,600
what we call the ideologies, and its various offshoots.

444
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,220
Lauren's essays, one on the Turkish Communist Party,

445
00:27:43,180 --> 00:27:45,440
and the other on the influence

446
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,440
of this German anti-modernity thought on Third Worldism,

447
00:27:53,980 --> 00:27:56,200
which I think is even more relevant today,

448
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,800
and his essay on Bolivia.

449
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,480
So those were key for me.

450
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,480
We did a panel together at the first New York,

451
00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:08,100
no, it might not have been the first.

452
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:09,180
I don't remember what year it was.

453
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:14,180
It was 2011, HMNY, Historical Materialism Conference,

454
00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:16,100
on this question.

455
00:28:19,180 --> 00:28:22,400
And that's when I first really started to develop

456
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,400
what is today, what I work on a lot is this sort of critique

457
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,760
in terms of how it applies to Iran in various ways.

458
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,340
And related to that, and I think what is a really important

459
00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:40,720
also sort of theoretical achievement of his

460
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,640
is reaffirming the importance of Rosa Luxemburg

461
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,920
in the theory of imperialism

462
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,960
and the critique of anti-imperialism

463
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,540
as both the basis of that critique,

464
00:28:51,540 --> 00:28:56,160
but also a new way of understanding imperialism

465
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,480
in this, whatever we wanna call it,

466
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,320
neoliberal late capitalist era.

467
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:03,700
And then another point that's connected to that

468
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:08,700
is his interest, would put it mildly,

469
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,640
in the struggles of the Third World in the global South.

470
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,040
I mean, the struggles of the proletariat in the global South.

471
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,680
Sorry, get out of there.

472
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,460
As seeing that as being one of the major developments

473
00:29:19,460 --> 00:29:21,960
of capitalism since the 70s,

474
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,520
the push of manufacturing the global South.

475
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,680
So he's always interested in what the proletariat

476
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,680
was doing, not just in the kind of core capitalist nations,

477
00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:34,800
but also even in the far peripheral aspects

478
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,980
of international capitalist production.

479
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,480
And so related to all of that is an essay I would point to,

480
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,600
I've already mentioned his,

481
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,280
I wanna sort of pitch these essays to people,

482
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,600
perhaps maybe younger people who might be listening.

483
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:49,440
I'm making a list.

484
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,640
So they can go look these up.

485
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:51,560
Yeah, I'm gonna make a list

486
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:52,720
so that they can all go on the show.

487
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,280
The San Bolivia essay on Turkey,

488
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,840
and another one that was really influential to me

489
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,720
is a fictitious capital for beginners

490
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,000
or the continued relevance of Rosa Luxembourg.

491
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,000
That's an essay that was really sort of influential to me

492
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,580
and kind of set me along further down

493
00:30:11,580 --> 00:30:14,680
the kind of rabbit hole of this.

494
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,040
Basically emphasizing the continued relevance

495
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,200
of the idea of a primitive accumulation,

496
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,560
the continuance of,

497
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,800
and that being the basis of understanding

498
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,620
capitalism, imperialism today.

499
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,720
So on a personal more kind of just to kind of talk about

500
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,040
him as a person, sometimes I think,

501
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,040
and this was, I think no small part of his own doing,

502
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,840
his insistence on the critique of political economy,

503
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,960
particularly at a time at the sort of high period

504
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,560
of postmodern theory, sometimes may have given

505
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,360
the impression that he was sort of dogmatic

506
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,720
or that he was only concerned with this one kind of

507
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,580
key aspect of capitalism,

508
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,480
which sometimes that could be the issue.

509
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,880
I think it's because of who he was trying

510
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,280
to sort of struggle against so much,

511
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,720
but on a, you know, outside of that,

512
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,720
he was very much a cosmopolitan thinking person

513
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,200
who saw capitalism as this much more dynamic totality.

514
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,360
And a couple of aspects of his thought that I think really

515
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,560
go under the radar was that as much as he was a,

516
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,520
very much a critic of what we would call

517
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:43,800
postmodernist theory,

518
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,800
he was not simply a Marxist apologist of modernity

519
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,040
and kind of 19th century materialism.

520
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,040
He had, he believed that Marx was neither the kind of,

521
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,800
and I think correctly, the materialism

522
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,800
of the 18th, 19th century thinkers,

523
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,040
nor this kind of rejection, but he did believe

524
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,680
that it was a possibility of there being another way.

525
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,840
And his writings on Kepler, for example,

526
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,040
he would always posit Kepler to Newton

527
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,720
and say Kepler was the kind of alternative

528
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,280
that could have provided a sort of more holistic view.

529
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,400
And a kind of anecdote,

530
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,060
one time I remember him telling me that he had by himself

531
00:32:30,060 --> 00:32:33,440
traveled to Amish country in Pennsylvania

532
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,440
to scour really obscure bookshops in order to find

533
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,440
the writings of Jacob Burma, the German mystic philosopher,

534
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,720
which have a connection to those communities.

535
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,560
So he really would go deep, just to show,

536
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,760
give an idea of sort of his interests

537
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,360
in terms of thought and philosophy.

538
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:56,200
Did he find it?

539
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,280
Not just, I believe, yeah, he would tell these stories

540
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,400
like you gotta go check it out, these bookstores,

541
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,200
they're like Marx's bookstores with all their divisions

542
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,840
and they have a whole section on 16th,

543
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,440
19th century mysticism, you gotta check it out.

544
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,120
And he knew German and they spoke,

545
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,840
he could kind of make this medieval German up.

546
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,360
And so just to give you a kind of idea.

547
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,640
And so I think I've spoken enough,

548
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,280
but just to say that I hope to sort of do justice

549
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,940
to his memory, he will be missed.

550
00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:37,940
There will be a place which won't be able to be filled

551
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:43,540
with his loss.

552
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:46,500
So rest in peace, Lauren Goldner,

553
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:50,500
and your commitment to what he called

554
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:53,540
a true material human community,

555
00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:56,540
I hope will sort of continue particularly.

556
00:33:59,260 --> 00:34:01,940
I hope that, yeah, I'll just sort of leave it at that.

557
00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:03,740
Rest in peace, Lauren Goldner.

558
00:34:03,740 --> 00:34:05,940
Great words, man, thank you so much for that.

559
00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:09,700
Those of you who are familiar with Hegel

560
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:13,780
know about his glorification of the Prussian monarchy

561
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:15,540
and the Prussian civil service

562
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:18,180
as the embodiment of the world spirit.

563
00:34:18,180 --> 00:34:21,100
These German romantics and Fichte in particular

564
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,620
had a variance on one, I think,

565
00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:25,540
without too much violence to history,

566
00:34:25,540 --> 00:34:28,660
you can draw a line from Fichte's notions

567
00:34:28,660 --> 00:34:31,940
of the autonomization of the aesthetic,

568
00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:35,340
a revolt against Kantian philosophy,

569
00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:37,580
which we don't have time to talk about,

570
00:34:37,580 --> 00:34:42,580
and his idea of what he called the closed mercantile state,

571
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:45,320
the Schloss in the Handelsstadt in German,

572
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,100
which we find in the 1920s and 1930s,

573
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:51,740
culminating in German Nazism,

574
00:34:51,740 --> 00:34:55,060
a literal closed mercantile state

575
00:34:55,060 --> 00:34:58,140
headed by a failed artist named Adolf Hitler,

576
00:34:58,140 --> 00:35:01,100
who devoted a tremendous amount of his time

577
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:04,500
and power to art, aesthetics, and sought culture

578
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:06,620
as central to Nazism.

579
00:35:07,460 --> 00:35:10,180
Those who see us as merely a political movement

580
00:35:10,180 --> 00:35:12,660
understand nothing about national socialism,

581
00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:15,580
as he told the British ambassador

582
00:35:15,580 --> 00:35:17,740
just before the outbreak of World War II.

583
00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:21,020
Next, Ross, do you wanna jump in?

584
00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:21,860
Ross Wolfe.

585
00:35:22,780 --> 00:35:24,300
Yeah, so this is Ross.

586
00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:26,540
I've been on the Antifada a couple of times.

587
00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:31,540
But yeah, Lauren, I came to know a little bit later

588
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,060
than some of you on here.

589
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:36,820
I'd read a couple of his essays,

590
00:35:36,820 --> 00:35:41,820
but when I first began to really engage with his writings,

591
00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:45,500
in earnest, I was actually a member

592
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:47,420
of the Platypus Affiliated Society,

593
00:35:47,420 --> 00:35:50,060
and we were organizing this talk

594
00:35:50,060 --> 00:35:53,460
on radical interpretations of the present crisis.

595
00:35:53,460 --> 00:35:56,820
This is 2012, early 2012, we began organizing this

596
00:35:56,820 --> 00:35:57,980
and began corresponding

597
00:35:57,980 --> 00:36:02,020
with different prospective panelists.

598
00:36:02,020 --> 00:36:04,900
So Lauren was one of those panelists,

599
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:08,420
Paul Maddock was also there, David Harvey,

600
00:36:08,420 --> 00:36:12,140
and Andrew Kleiman of the Marxist Humanist Initiative.

601
00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:14,240
And it was a huge event.

602
00:36:15,180 --> 00:36:17,700
I think some really interesting exchanges.

603
00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:22,060
But I found myself most impressed

604
00:36:22,060 --> 00:36:27,060
by Lauren's remarks, as well as Paul's.

605
00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:32,180
And then in the years after that,

606
00:36:32,180 --> 00:36:36,340
I found his website, I devoured his writings,

607
00:36:37,420 --> 00:36:41,620
really, which had a huge influence on the way that I thought.

608
00:36:41,620 --> 00:36:43,100
I mean, it was already resonant

609
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:47,440
with so many of the influences that I had prior to that,

610
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,440
Marx, Hegel, Kant, the entire patrimony

611
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:54,580
of Western philosophy.

612
00:36:55,900 --> 00:37:00,900
His, I mean, going over some of the essays

613
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,000
that had a huge influence on me,

614
00:37:04,060 --> 00:37:06,060
his two-part essay for Race Trader

615
00:37:06,060 --> 00:37:09,000
on race and the enlightenment is just phenomenal.

616
00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:14,860
He had a very early critique of post-colonial thought

617
00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:19,040
in the universality of Marx, some of his review

618
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,460
of Max Albaum's book, Revolution in the Air,

619
00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:27,100
his own reminiscences of the 60s at Berkeley.

620
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:31,540
And in fact, you're right, Aria,

621
00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:34,020
when you were talking about some of his criticisms

622
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:37,720
at the time, again, it's crazy to think how early on

623
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:42,460
he was sticking it to the postmodernists,

624
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:43,620
the French post-structuralists.

625
00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:46,620
I mean, he was conversant with all that stuff,

626
00:37:46,620 --> 00:37:49,360
doing reviews of these obscure books in French

627
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,920
that were challenging these currents of thought.

628
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,160
So his book, The Vanguard of Retrogression,

629
00:37:55,380 --> 00:37:58,300
like I was rereading parts of it today,

630
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:02,600
just in preparation for this memorial that we're doing here.

631
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,920
And I was struck by, I mean, there were parts of it where,

632
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,800
yeah, he comes off a little bit dogmatic perhaps,

633
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,540
but dogmatically, specifically dogmatically,

634
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:16,500
like Marxist Hegelian, Hegelian Marxist.

635
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:18,060
Again, I love it.

636
00:38:18,060 --> 00:38:20,380
Jared's holding up The Vanguard of Retrogression,

637
00:38:20,380 --> 00:38:21,440
great book.

638
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,460
His book on Herman Melville that I have,

639
00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:29,860
Jake Blumenfeld posted about it on Twitter.

640
00:38:29,860 --> 00:38:31,460
It really is unclassifiable.

641
00:38:31,460 --> 00:38:32,900
It's genre-defying.

642
00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:35,960
It's so erudite.

643
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,420
It's going across the entire gamut of Melville's writings

644
00:38:42,420 --> 00:38:45,780
from beginning to end, it's incorporating reflections

645
00:38:45,780 --> 00:38:48,300
on state of science in the 19th century,

646
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:50,380
revolutionary movements in Europe.

647
00:38:50,380 --> 00:38:52,320
It's just incredible.

648
00:38:53,820 --> 00:38:56,900
And so he could range from that,

649
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,700
this incredibly erudite work of literary

650
00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:05,700
and social criticism and deliver these very accessible

651
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:08,980
sort of rundowns of revolutionary history.

652
00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:13,980
Wendy's really, like listening back to them,

653
00:39:14,220 --> 00:39:16,580
reading the transcripts of them,

654
00:39:16,580 --> 00:39:18,340
he was just going off the top of his head.

655
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:21,420
These were just like, I mean, he would occasionally

656
00:39:21,420 --> 00:39:23,380
get a couple of the details here and there wrong,

657
00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:25,960
but that's because he was going entirely from memory.

658
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,960
Really just one of a kind figure.

659
00:39:31,420 --> 00:39:33,140
It's funny to think of him too,

660
00:39:33,980 --> 00:39:37,060
in terms of the New York revolutionary milieu

661
00:39:37,060 --> 00:39:38,220
that I found him in, obviously,

662
00:39:38,220 --> 00:39:40,220
he lived in these other places as well.

663
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:45,660
He had all these kind of funny interactions

664
00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:50,660
with various others in the ultra left milieu

665
00:39:51,220 --> 00:39:52,300
throughout New York.

666
00:39:53,980 --> 00:39:57,360
I met up with him probably four or five times individually,

667
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,300
we corresponded a lot via email.

668
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:01,900
And I did those couple of events,

669
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:05,360
the one on interpretations of the present crisis.

670
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,620
I did another event at Woodbine

671
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:10,660
about class struggles in China,

672
00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:13,720
which he was really devoted to up to the end

673
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,320
of his real intellectual output.

674
00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:22,700
But he would tell me another figure

675
00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:25,580
who sadly passed during the pandemic,

676
00:40:25,580 --> 00:40:28,580
Macintosh of internationalist perspective,

677
00:40:28,580 --> 00:40:31,460
who was an outstanding and incredible figure

678
00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:33,020
in his own right.

679
00:40:33,020 --> 00:40:38,020
They would have these little spats or disagreements.

680
00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:40,500
I remember this was 2014 or 2015,

681
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:42,540
we met up in Washington Square Park

682
00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:46,220
and he and Macintosh had just had some disagreement

683
00:40:46,220 --> 00:40:47,680
over the character of ISIS,

684
00:40:49,420 --> 00:40:51,980
which at the time was very much in the news.

685
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:54,220
And they both agreed that ISIS

686
00:40:54,220 --> 00:40:58,180
was an essentially modern phenomenon,

687
00:40:58,180 --> 00:41:00,180
that it was not just the recrudescence

688
00:41:00,180 --> 00:41:02,220
of this past barbarism,

689
00:41:02,220 --> 00:41:04,700
that it was like there was something very new

690
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:06,720
and perverse about it.

691
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,920
But they were disagreeing about

692
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,280
whether to characterize it as multinational,

693
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,860
which I think Macintosh was

694
00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:16,180
because of all the foreign fighters

695
00:41:16,180 --> 00:41:19,140
who were joining ISIS or transnational

696
00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:22,340
because it spanned these different

697
00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:24,460
existing national entities.

698
00:41:24,460 --> 00:41:28,140
And I couldn't for the life of me see

699
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:29,460
what was at stake with this,

700
00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:33,500
but he was very exercised about this exchange

701
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:34,980
and he just kept coming back to it

702
00:41:34,980 --> 00:41:36,700
when we were having a conversation.

703
00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:39,860
So I found that that really summed up

704
00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:44,020
his interesting friendship slash rivalry

705
00:41:44,020 --> 00:41:46,300
with Macintosh and some of the others.

706
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:49,860
I remember, and this involves another good friend,

707
00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:52,960
he was very close of course with Noel Ignatiev,

708
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,960
rest in peace to him as well.

709
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,420
But Noel would call me a lot,

710
00:41:58,420 --> 00:42:01,980
he would just phone me at weird hours of the day.

711
00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:05,540
And it was usually talking about arguments

712
00:42:05,540 --> 00:42:07,940
that he'd been having on Facebook or whatever,

713
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:09,760
stuff that was just bothering him.

714
00:42:11,260 --> 00:42:15,240
But Noel would call me to,

715
00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:19,860
because he said basically having me act

716
00:42:19,860 --> 00:42:23,580
as a surrogate for Lauren Goldner

717
00:42:23,580 --> 00:42:26,300
about questions of national liberation

718
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:29,380
because he said Lauren refused to talk to him

719
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:30,980
about this after a while because they just had

720
00:42:30,980 --> 00:42:32,620
the arguments so many times,

721
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:34,660
for years and years and years.

722
00:42:34,660 --> 00:42:36,620
And he was like, you've got basically the same

723
00:42:36,620 --> 00:42:39,180
position on this as Lauren's,

724
00:42:39,180 --> 00:42:41,260
I just wanna talk this over once more.

725
00:42:41,260 --> 00:42:43,420
And I would just be like, all right, fine,

726
00:42:43,420 --> 00:42:46,300
and we would talk for an hour or whatever.

727
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:49,120
So I mean, again, it's a story about Noel,

728
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,860
but I think it also involves Lauren

729
00:42:51,860 --> 00:42:54,860
in this kind of indirect way.

730
00:42:54,860 --> 00:42:57,780
So I mean, just a hell of a guy,

731
00:42:57,780 --> 00:43:00,380
a true giant, like completely one of a kind,

732
00:43:00,380 --> 00:43:03,300
intellectual, just completely sui generis too,

733
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,340
like self-made, like auto-didact,

734
00:43:06,340 --> 00:43:09,160
like with all these incredible connections,

735
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,980
just, you know, it's a huge loss.

736
00:43:17,780 --> 00:43:19,900
Ross, thank you for that.

737
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:23,460
I think next maybe, I hate to do this,

738
00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:25,960
but Jonna, do you wanna jump back in?

739
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,340
Do you have more to say after the biographical sketch

740
00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:31,840
or should we move on to Jared or Joe?

741
00:43:35,060 --> 00:43:36,780
In the interest of not taking too much time,

742
00:43:36,780 --> 00:43:39,420
maybe I could just add that at the end.

743
00:43:40,820 --> 00:43:42,940
But I think Jared, did you,

744
00:43:42,940 --> 00:43:45,660
did it look like you were about to say something?

745
00:43:45,660 --> 00:43:47,780
He wants you to go off according to chat.

746
00:43:49,060 --> 00:43:51,380
Oh, sorry, I can't see the chat.

747
00:43:51,380 --> 00:43:54,780
No, I was just gonna say, I think, I mean,

748
00:43:54,780 --> 00:43:56,460
I think to go back to like the 68,

749
00:43:56,460 --> 00:43:59,260
I just wanna say that I think Lauren was like

750
00:43:59,260 --> 00:44:03,860
very emblematic of this like nascent ultra left

751
00:44:03,860 --> 00:44:06,120
of a time when, you know,

752
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,180
and I think the essay Ross that you alluded to

753
00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:13,100
where he like critiques that guy's like take on China,

754
00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:15,020
you know, it's like the anti-war movement

755
00:44:15,020 --> 00:44:19,540
in the sixties against Vietnam was like very unable

756
00:44:19,540 --> 00:44:23,340
to have a critique of Stalinism, you know,

757
00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:28,340
as much as I have so much respect for Noel, even Noel,

758
00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:31,280
you know, he like Noel didn't really have a critique

759
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,580
of like Stalinism until much later.

760
00:44:33,580 --> 00:44:36,100
So I think, you know, Lauren in that sense

761
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:39,340
was part of that wave of, you know,

762
00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:40,900
this critique of Stalinism.

763
00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:45,060
He was in this like, you know, sort of Trotskyist sect

764
00:44:45,060 --> 00:44:48,500
that was able to say like, hey, like, you know,

765
00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:53,420
the Soviet Union is not a socialist country, you know,

766
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:57,380
also to have a critique of China, of Mao

767
00:44:57,380 --> 00:44:59,760
and to kind of bring in, you know,

768
00:45:01,300 --> 00:45:05,440
to kind of look at May 68 in France and say, you know,

769
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,400
and other parts of the world and say like, okay,

770
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,000
that's what we should be aiming for, right?

771
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,540
So I think to kind of have that critique of Stalin

772
00:45:13,540 --> 00:45:18,540
as early as 68 in the US is really important, you know,

773
00:45:19,660 --> 00:45:24,660
I think contribution of Lauren of the 68 generation.

774
00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:27,620
And I just wanna add that I think our discussion here

775
00:45:27,620 --> 00:45:31,260
is that Lauren had what we should hope

776
00:45:31,260 --> 00:45:32,860
for any revolutionary to have, right?

777
00:45:32,860 --> 00:45:34,540
This like very global outlook

778
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:38,780
where he really took seriously struggles everywhere, right?

779
00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:40,620
I mean, when he went to South Korea,

780
00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:43,340
he was like meeting with workers and there, you know,

781
00:45:43,340 --> 00:45:46,020
like the working class struggles were not,

782
00:45:46,020 --> 00:45:48,140
were very much connected to working class people, right?

783
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:51,740
Not like in the US where it was mostly a lot of academics

784
00:45:51,740 --> 00:45:53,980
and he learned Korean, right?

785
00:45:53,980 --> 00:45:56,740
I think his most recent project

786
00:45:56,740 --> 00:45:59,260
that he didn't get to finish about China, right?

787
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:01,460
I mean, he was learning Chinese.

788
00:46:01,460 --> 00:46:03,700
He was very much, you know,

789
00:46:05,340 --> 00:46:07,580
in order to understand like the struggles

790
00:46:07,580 --> 00:46:10,580
that were happening, he really immersed himself in them.

791
00:46:10,580 --> 00:46:14,060
And he was, I think really tried to connect himself

792
00:46:14,060 --> 00:46:16,660
to revolutionaries elsewhere.

793
00:46:16,660 --> 00:46:20,740
There's a sense that the massive kind of police crackdown

794
00:46:20,740 --> 00:46:22,340
on demonstrations and strikes

795
00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:24,180
that was very typical of the government,

796
00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:26,940
just we're not going down well.

797
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:29,740
For example, on the day I visited Jongsaek,

798
00:46:29,740 --> 00:46:33,700
it just happened that about a thousand scabs and thugs

799
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,900
had held a demo just outside the plant gate.

800
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,860
And there were about 400 cops there as well.

801
00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:43,020
And to everyone's surprise, certainly to my surprise,

802
00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:47,260
the police declared their demonstration to be illegal

803
00:46:47,260 --> 00:46:48,420
and dispersed it.

804
00:46:48,420 --> 00:46:50,660
Not of course because they didn't sympathize with it,

805
00:46:50,660 --> 00:46:53,820
but because they were worried that the workers inside

806
00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:55,860
were going to come out and attack it.

807
00:46:55,860 --> 00:46:57,460
Just a short story, he, you know,

808
00:46:57,460 --> 00:47:00,260
he was one of the people that put me in touch

809
00:47:00,260 --> 00:47:04,300
with like revolutionaries in Spain when I visited, you know,

810
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:08,140
the socialism or barbarism folks in France, right?

811
00:47:08,140 --> 00:47:11,140
So he was, I think, very connected and, you know,

812
00:47:11,140 --> 00:47:13,060
in this effort of, you know,

813
00:47:13,060 --> 00:47:17,340
what it really would take to build like a global, you know,

814
00:47:17,340 --> 00:47:18,540
working class movement.

815
00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:22,900
Absolutely.

816
00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:24,980
Jared, I think you're next on deck.

817
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:27,860
What's up, everyone?

818
00:47:27,860 --> 00:47:29,820
It's great to see all of you.

819
00:47:29,820 --> 00:47:30,980
Welcome back.

820
00:47:30,980 --> 00:47:32,340
Many time guests, Jared.

821
00:47:32,340 --> 00:47:37,340
You know, as Engel said at the grave site of Marx, you know,

822
00:47:37,420 --> 00:47:41,100
he was before all else a revolutionist.

823
00:47:41,100 --> 00:47:44,020
And I think that that's really important to emphasize

824
00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:48,860
because he was such a magnificent intellectual, right?

825
00:47:48,860 --> 00:47:53,380
Ross pointed out some of my favorite of his work actually,

826
00:47:53,380 --> 00:47:58,380
race and enlightenment is, it's magisterial.

827
00:47:58,380 --> 00:48:02,260
And the Melville book, which I'm actually, I've just started

828
00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:04,420
to read since he passed and I really wished

829
00:48:04,420 --> 00:48:06,260
that I had read it before

830
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:08,100
so that we could have talked about it, right?

831
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:10,900
It's just, I agree with Ross, it's unclassifiable.

832
00:48:11,780 --> 00:48:15,380
He was such a towering intellectual figure

833
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:20,380
capable of synthesizing 19th century art and science

834
00:48:20,460 --> 00:48:23,060
and politics and class struggle,

835
00:48:23,060 --> 00:48:26,580
all coherently within the same thread.

836
00:48:26,580 --> 00:48:31,580
And simultaneously, he spoke at least six languages.

837
00:48:32,820 --> 00:48:36,540
And I believe most of those, he just, he taught himself

838
00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:39,980
or he would participate in these language sharing programs

839
00:48:39,980 --> 00:48:41,380
with people in New York City.

840
00:48:42,980 --> 00:48:45,500
And so it's easy to lose sight of the fact

841
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:48,540
that probably the smartest person that I've ever met

842
00:48:49,860 --> 00:48:54,860
was not somebody who was dedicated to publishing

843
00:48:54,860 --> 00:48:58,580
as many books as possible on arcane intellectual topics

844
00:48:58,580 --> 00:49:03,580
or rising to the top of their, some academic bureaucracy,

845
00:49:03,660 --> 00:49:07,700
but was very much engaged in just the practical exegesis

846
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:08,940
of class struggle.

847
00:49:08,940 --> 00:49:11,620
And that's how he oriented his thought.

848
00:49:11,620 --> 00:49:16,060
That was the reason why he did all of the things that he did.

849
00:49:17,180 --> 00:49:19,140
I mean, he was not without ego,

850
00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:23,180
but it wasn't the kind of academic ego that you find

851
00:49:23,180 --> 00:49:28,180
among Marxologists and among the kind of people

852
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:34,100
that he kind of delighted in taking down in his writing.

853
00:49:35,540 --> 00:49:39,300
And I think an important part of his dedication

854
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:42,540
to the struggle was to what some other folks

855
00:49:42,540 --> 00:49:43,620
have already emphasized,

856
00:49:43,620 --> 00:49:47,580
was the sheer amount of time that he put into mentorship.

857
00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:52,940
You know, I was in my mid 20s when I met him,

858
00:49:52,940 --> 00:49:57,060
Ari as a heady, my oldest friend in the left,

859
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:03,260
introduced me to Lauren at the time when I was growing

860
00:50:03,260 --> 00:50:07,420
dissatisfied with the kind of like chic postmodernism,

861
00:50:07,420 --> 00:50:10,020
kind of radical liberal anarchism

862
00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:15,020
that I had just kind of fallen into in my teenage years.

863
00:50:16,420 --> 00:50:20,500
And I'm amazed now looking back at the amount of time

864
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:23,940
that Lauren was willing to set aside for me

865
00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:25,700
and for other people.

866
00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:28,660
And I've been reading his writing over the last couple of days

867
00:50:28,660 --> 00:50:30,140
just rereading some of these essays.

868
00:50:30,140 --> 00:50:32,580
I just feel like, man, the amount of patience

869
00:50:32,580 --> 00:50:35,380
that it must have taken for this guy to talk to me

870
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:39,540
when I was like in my mid 20s and didn't know shit

871
00:50:39,540 --> 00:50:42,580
about any of this stuff, but thought that I did, right?

872
00:50:42,580 --> 00:50:44,900
There's kind of just this kind of patience and humility.

873
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:47,140
And he wasn't getting anything out of that, right?

874
00:50:47,140 --> 00:50:51,380
He wasn't a wealthy man.

875
00:50:51,380 --> 00:50:54,500
He did have the senior citizens discount Metro card,

876
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:57,220
which I called the Insurgent Notes membership card.

877
00:50:58,300 --> 00:50:59,140
Oh, no.

878
00:51:01,140 --> 00:51:05,820
But he wasn't a wealthy man, but he just made,

879
00:51:05,820 --> 00:51:09,780
he made so much time for basically somebody

880
00:51:09,780 --> 00:51:13,620
who he judged would be important to reach.

881
00:51:14,980 --> 00:51:16,580
The listeners might think that we're making

882
00:51:16,580 --> 00:51:19,660
some kind of joke about the Wendy's lectures,

883
00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,340
but no, I was present and I helped organize some of these.

884
00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:26,100
There were in fact, there was a series of lectures

885
00:51:27,020 --> 00:51:30,700
in the basement of a Wendy's in Midtown Manhattan

886
00:51:32,020 --> 00:51:35,980
because we just couldn't get space to do it anywhere else.

887
00:51:35,980 --> 00:51:36,820
And so like,

888
00:51:36,820 --> 00:51:41,820
it was in the basement of a Wendy's.

889
00:51:42,540 --> 00:51:44,860
Like where they stock the secret sauce

890
00:51:44,860 --> 00:51:45,860
and stuff like that?

891
00:51:45,860 --> 00:51:47,180
No, no, no, no, no.

892
00:51:47,180 --> 00:51:48,660
There was a basement eating area,

893
00:51:48,660 --> 00:51:51,660
but it was, there's a ground level entrance

894
00:51:51,660 --> 00:51:53,300
on Fifth Avenue.

895
00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:56,220
And then, so there will be a plaque there someday,

896
00:51:56,220 --> 00:51:59,220
assuming that we don't abolish restaurants

897
00:51:59,220 --> 00:52:00,140
in the revolution.

898
00:52:00,140 --> 00:52:02,300
There will at least be a plaque to commemorate.

899
00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:04,060
We can really be a set piece.

900
00:52:04,060 --> 00:52:05,580
We can keep it just as it was

901
00:52:05,580 --> 00:52:09,780
when Lauren Goldner gave his 20 lectures.

902
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:11,380
No, those were very, they were very much,

903
00:52:11,380 --> 00:52:15,900
it was a very serious set of lectures delivered

904
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:17,180
in the basement of a Wendy's

905
00:52:17,180 --> 00:52:19,780
as like Rihanna blasted in the background.

906
00:52:21,140 --> 00:52:25,180
And the interesting part is that one of the organizers

907
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:31,380
had basically had been goading Lauren to do this series

908
00:52:31,380 --> 00:52:34,740
of all the different revolutionary tendencies

909
00:52:36,180 --> 00:52:39,020
as a means of inoculating younger comrades

910
00:52:39,020 --> 00:52:40,460
against the different groups

911
00:52:40,460 --> 00:52:42,180
that they were meeting in New York.

912
00:52:43,820 --> 00:52:46,580
And so the idea was that Lauren was gonna explain to them

913
00:52:46,580 --> 00:52:48,980
why it was stupid to be a Maoist

914
00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:51,580
or why it was stupid to be a Trotskyist.

915
00:52:51,580 --> 00:52:55,060
And therefore they would inevitably see the infinite wisdom

916
00:52:55,060 --> 00:52:57,100
of whatever the fuck we all are, you know?

917
00:52:58,180 --> 00:53:01,100
And I remember, it was really funny,

918
00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:02,700
during the Trotsky one,

919
00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:05,580
this is when Lauren was supposed to be convincing

920
00:53:05,580 --> 00:53:06,540
all these younger people

921
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:08,940
that there was nothing for them in Trotskyism,

922
00:53:08,940 --> 00:53:13,860
he would just go on these like really poetic tangents about,

923
00:53:13,860 --> 00:53:16,500
and the real military genius of Trotsky,

924
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:18,700
he's like, now think about this for a minute,

925
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,740
this is somebody who had never served

926
00:53:21,740 --> 00:53:25,020
in the military before, he had no prior experience

927
00:53:25,020 --> 00:53:26,340
and he was leading battalions,

928
00:53:26,340 --> 00:53:28,740
he was routing the white army left and right

929
00:53:28,740 --> 00:53:30,820
and just good as rapsidizing about Trotsky

930
00:53:30,820 --> 00:53:33,300
and about the kind of begrudging admiration

931
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:35,180
that he had for Lenin, right?

932
00:53:35,180 --> 00:53:36,500
And the comrade who had imagined

933
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:38,420
that this was going to just be one polemic

934
00:53:38,420 --> 00:53:40,260
after another, right?

935
00:53:41,180 --> 00:53:44,180
Realized that Lauren was not somebody who thought that way,

936
00:53:44,180 --> 00:53:46,140
he could write very polemically,

937
00:53:46,140 --> 00:53:49,220
but he engaged in the revolutionary tradition

938
00:53:49,220 --> 00:53:53,300
in a very dynamic and dialectical way.

939
00:53:53,300 --> 00:53:54,620
And that was like around the time

940
00:53:54,620 --> 00:53:57,420
when I was trying to make sense of all these different,

941
00:53:57,420 --> 00:54:01,020
these different traditions that bear proper names

942
00:54:01,020 --> 00:54:02,780
and Lauren really helped me realize

943
00:54:02,780 --> 00:54:05,700
that people like Lenin and Trotsky and Mao

944
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:09,420
were actually very dynamic and original revolutionary thinkers

945
00:54:09,420 --> 00:54:12,340
in their time who were responding

946
00:54:12,340 --> 00:54:16,220
to the rapid unfolding of world events

947
00:54:16,220 --> 00:54:18,300
and trying their best to figure out

948
00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:20,620
how to take meaningful action in it.

949
00:54:20,620 --> 00:54:24,340
And the fact that these names have been appended

950
00:54:24,340 --> 00:54:29,340
to these stale, ossified traditions over the years

951
00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:32,420
is no discredit to them, right?

952
00:54:32,420 --> 00:54:34,900
If any of those people were still alive today,

953
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:37,340
imagine how disgusted that Trotsky would be

954
00:54:37,340 --> 00:54:39,980
if he came back and found out that his adherents

955
00:54:39,980 --> 00:54:43,300
were still presenting the transitional program

956
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:46,900
as if it was a document relevant to the 21st century, right?

957
00:54:46,900 --> 00:54:50,900
And so it was this kind of dynamic engagement

958
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:54,540
that Lauren really modeled for a lot of us.

959
00:54:54,540 --> 00:54:59,220
I could go on and on and probably will at some point,

960
00:54:59,220 --> 00:55:01,620
but I guess I just wanna say in closing

961
00:55:01,620 --> 00:55:06,340
that it's really scary to think that, you know,

962
00:55:06,340 --> 00:55:11,340
we're losing this generation, the 68er generation, you know.

963
00:55:12,140 --> 00:55:15,220
Ignatiev passed a couple of years ago.

964
00:55:15,220 --> 00:55:17,660
He was like our Gramsci.

965
00:55:17,660 --> 00:55:18,580
We've lost Lauren.

966
00:55:18,580 --> 00:55:20,680
He's our Bordiga, right?

967
00:55:22,340 --> 00:55:23,500
If anybody's in New York,

968
00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:26,180
please bring some chicken soup to John Garvey.

969
00:55:26,180 --> 00:55:31,180
John Garvey must be defended at all costs.

970
00:55:31,780 --> 00:55:33,940
It's going to be a crushing blow

971
00:55:33,940 --> 00:55:37,580
when this generation is just a memory to us, you know?

972
00:55:37,580 --> 00:55:40,020
We asked John Garvey as a side note,

973
00:55:40,020 --> 00:55:41,820
and he's obviously mourning

974
00:55:41,820 --> 00:55:43,060
one of his great friends right now.

975
00:55:43,060 --> 00:55:44,660
So maybe sometime in the future,

976
00:55:44,660 --> 00:55:46,660
we can have John Garvey on to speak more.

977
00:55:46,660 --> 00:55:47,940
I'm sorry, go on, Jared.

978
00:55:47,940 --> 00:55:48,780
Oh, no, no, that's fine.

979
00:55:48,780 --> 00:55:50,860
And I was just gonna say, just in closing,

980
00:55:50,860 --> 00:55:55,860
like it's actually like, there's a lot of responsibility,

981
00:55:55,860 --> 00:55:58,620
you know, I think that falls on those of us

982
00:55:58,620 --> 00:56:01,580
who had the privilege of interacting with this,

983
00:56:01,580 --> 00:56:03,120
with this older generation.

984
00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:07,860
And I'm not sure, like I feel like conflicted

985
00:56:07,860 --> 00:56:11,140
that I could even, you know, rise to the challenge

986
00:56:11,140 --> 00:56:13,060
of just being for a new generation

987
00:56:13,060 --> 00:56:14,780
what Lauren was to us, right?

988
00:56:14,780 --> 00:56:19,420
And it's like, it's almost a burden or a challenge, right?

989
00:56:19,420 --> 00:56:22,660
But I think that the good news is that this is,

990
00:56:22,660 --> 00:56:25,860
somebody like Lauren has modeled this for us

991
00:56:26,980 --> 00:56:28,940
in a very clear way,

992
00:56:28,940 --> 00:56:32,900
and will kind of shine a path forward,

993
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:34,060
especially for those of us

994
00:56:34,060 --> 00:56:36,300
who might be a little bit isolated

995
00:56:36,300 --> 00:56:38,020
from day-to-day struggles.

996
00:56:38,020 --> 00:56:40,020
I mean, as Noel liked to point out,

997
00:56:40,020 --> 00:56:43,500
Lauren in his life was never involved in an issue-based,

998
00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:46,920
demand-based political campaign.

999
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:48,760
And it didn't fucking matter

1000
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,060
because he was able to exert so much influence

1001
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:55,780
on people engaged in struggles all over the world, right?

1002
00:56:55,780 --> 00:56:57,900
And so I think that there's all kinds of ways

1003
00:56:57,900 --> 00:57:00,120
that people can interface with the movement,

1004
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,060
and there's all kinds of responsibilities

1005
00:57:02,060 --> 00:57:03,460
for people who understand

1006
00:57:03,460 --> 00:57:06,420
that the communist revolution actually needs to happen,

1007
00:57:06,420 --> 00:57:07,260
right?

1008
00:57:07,260 --> 00:57:09,700
And Lauren, it was just a wonderful example

1009
00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:11,300
of something that's really necessary.

1010
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:13,420
And it's like Arya was saying, it's just an,

1011
00:57:13,420 --> 00:57:14,660
it's an absence now,

1012
00:57:14,660 --> 00:57:17,740
and I worry that his absence just can't be filled.

1013
00:57:18,980 --> 00:57:21,420
Well, it's up to us to try, I suppose.

1014
00:57:21,420 --> 00:57:23,700
Joe Lombardo, do you wanna introduce yourself

1015
00:57:23,700 --> 00:57:25,380
and say some words?

1016
00:57:25,380 --> 00:57:26,260
Yeah, sure.

1017
00:57:26,260 --> 00:57:28,100
So my name is Joe.

1018
00:57:28,100 --> 00:57:31,900
I first emailed Lauren probably in 2009.

1019
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:33,940
I was in Turkey at the time,

1020
00:57:33,940 --> 00:57:36,100
and I was coming back to the US to New York.

1021
00:57:36,100 --> 00:57:38,180
And he wrote, you know,

1022
00:57:38,180 --> 00:57:39,620
had his article on Turkey and stuff,

1023
00:57:39,620 --> 00:57:41,420
and I just found it very enlightening at the time.

1024
00:57:41,420 --> 00:57:44,860
I found myself in this weird, you know,

1025
00:57:44,860 --> 00:57:47,180
hodgepodge of Leninism and Stalinism,

1026
00:57:47,180 --> 00:57:48,820
and you know, things that I kind of picked up,

1027
00:57:48,820 --> 00:57:50,660
I guess, along the way.

1028
00:57:50,660 --> 00:57:53,980
And so 2010, I came back,

1029
00:57:53,980 --> 00:57:56,860
and I think it was at the second meeting of IN

1030
00:57:56,860 --> 00:57:57,700
where I joined,

1031
00:57:57,700 --> 00:57:58,980
and I think it was at some bakery,

1032
00:57:58,980 --> 00:58:00,620
I think in the Lower East Side, I can't remember,

1033
00:58:00,620 --> 00:58:03,500
but I remember, yeah, Arya's shaking his head, yeah.

1034
00:58:03,500 --> 00:58:05,820
So I remember that's where I met Arya.

1035
00:58:05,820 --> 00:58:09,220
Sean, I don't know if you were there at the time, maybe.

1036
00:58:09,220 --> 00:58:12,420
Definitely both John's, Johnny and John were there.

1037
00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:16,380
Yeah, I'm trying to think who else.

1038
00:58:16,380 --> 00:58:17,220
Jacob?

1039
00:58:17,220 --> 00:58:18,040
No, I don't think Jacob was there.

1040
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:19,660
But anyway, I think I met, yeah, definitely met,

1041
00:58:19,660 --> 00:58:21,340
you know, Sean and Jake and Arya,

1042
00:58:21,340 --> 00:58:23,780
I think at Spain at one point, maybe even Jared was there,

1043
00:58:23,780 --> 00:58:26,460
I'm not sure, but that restaurant apparently closed down.

1044
00:58:26,460 --> 00:58:29,020
I was like, that was kind of like my dinner most nights

1045
00:58:29,020 --> 00:58:29,860
because of the-

1046
00:58:29,860 --> 00:58:31,100
That was a huge loss.

1047
00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:33,140
That was one of, that was like the main meeting place.

1048
00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:35,380
We're trying to have a commie meeting next week,

1049
00:58:35,380 --> 00:58:36,900
and I was like, oh, let's go to Spain.

1050
00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:38,460
Oh damn, it's gone.

1051
00:58:38,460 --> 00:58:40,140
Yeah, yeah.

1052
00:58:40,140 --> 00:58:42,300
Yeah, exactly, I think there might've been a fascist,

1053
00:58:42,300 --> 00:58:43,540
but I'm not sure.

1054
00:58:43,540 --> 00:58:47,580
But anyway, you know, I can't speak intelligently.

1055
00:58:47,580 --> 00:58:49,500
It's been years really since I've sort of been

1056
00:58:49,500 --> 00:58:52,340
out of the movement now, but so certainly, you know,

1057
00:58:52,340 --> 00:58:54,180
folks like Arya definitely can, I think,

1058
00:58:54,180 --> 00:58:58,560
speak to Lauren's legacy in a very intellectual way.

1059
00:58:59,540 --> 00:59:03,900
Lauren, for me, was, I'll always remember him,

1060
00:59:03,900 --> 00:59:05,420
you know, kind of tottering, you know,

1061
00:59:05,420 --> 00:59:09,300
somewhere down, you know, 4th Street in Manhattan,

1062
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:11,440
you know, with his big oversized headphones,

1063
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,700
this backpack, this ill-fitting clothing.

1064
00:59:14,700 --> 00:59:15,900
And, you know, I remember asking him,

1065
00:59:15,900 --> 00:59:17,380
what are you listening to all day?

1066
00:59:17,380 --> 00:59:20,220
And he's like, oh, it's Mandarin lessons.

1067
00:59:20,220 --> 00:59:21,380
So I said, okay.

1068
00:59:21,380 --> 00:59:24,900
And so we would be at this diner,

1069
00:59:24,900 --> 00:59:27,360
and some folks have already spoken about this,

1070
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,460
but he was such an omnivorous reader.

1071
00:59:29,460 --> 00:59:31,980
I mean, you know, really one of the few, I think,

1072
00:59:31,980 --> 00:59:35,580
on the left that just wasn't, you know, fixated

1073
00:59:35,580 --> 00:59:38,500
on every emotion of what Lenin said, or Trotsky,

1074
00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:39,500
or even Marx, for that matter.

1075
00:59:39,500 --> 00:59:42,600
I mean, I think half the time we'd speak about his interest

1076
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:47,600
in French poetry, art, certainly language for sure,

1077
00:59:47,660 --> 00:59:49,020
his readings into science.

1078
00:59:49,020 --> 00:59:52,020
And I remember being about, I guess, maybe 25, 26,

1079
00:59:52,020 --> 00:59:53,340
and like, my God, I'm such a dumbass.

1080
00:59:53,340 --> 00:59:55,060
Like, what is this guy even doing?

1081
00:59:55,060 --> 00:59:56,340
Bother talking to me, I can't contribute.

1082
00:59:56,340 --> 00:59:58,100
Like Jared said, it's like, what am I gonna contribute

1083
00:59:58,100 --> 00:59:59,580
to this conversation?

1084
00:59:59,580 --> 01:00:02,360
And I think we would spend maybe like three hours,

1085
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:07,360
and we would meet almost every week until I left New York.

1086
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:12,360
So yeah, so I knew him for, you know, a good decade or so.

1087
01:00:12,940 --> 01:00:14,800
And I just remember the I.N. meetings,

1088
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,980
it was maybe only six or seven folks,

1089
01:00:16,980 --> 01:00:19,660
sometimes different people come through and talk.

1090
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:23,540
And, you know, Lauren, he was also someone who was not,

1091
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:25,740
even though he might've been maybe dogmatic in some ways,

1092
01:00:25,740 --> 01:00:26,860
you know, he always pointed you

1093
01:00:26,860 --> 01:00:28,820
in the direction of other people.

1094
01:00:28,820 --> 01:00:30,860
And I think for me, what was interesting

1095
01:00:30,860 --> 01:00:32,260
is I got to know Walter Down,

1096
01:00:32,260 --> 01:00:34,260
you know, he was a sort of left-wing trot.

1097
01:00:34,260 --> 01:00:37,580
McIntosh was one person I met with,

1098
01:00:37,580 --> 01:00:40,820
a couple other folks, these names are now slipping me.

1099
01:00:40,820 --> 01:00:43,180
You know, they weren't necessarily even empathetic to,

1100
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:45,420
I'd say, Lauren's view,

1101
01:00:45,420 --> 01:00:48,700
but he would still kind of point you in the right direction.

1102
01:00:48,700 --> 01:00:52,180
And yeah, just one hell of a listener.

1103
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,500
You know, I think for me, at least to I.N.,

1104
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:57,320
I was definitely the slower one of the group.

1105
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:58,820
I don't think I really contributed too much

1106
01:00:58,820 --> 01:01:01,020
to the intellectual development out here, Arya,

1107
01:01:01,020 --> 01:01:02,300
or Lauren Tager, Garvey.

1108
01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:03,460
And I'm like, oh man,

1109
01:01:03,460 --> 01:01:06,140
it's like, I'm just gonna sit here and eat some dip

1110
01:01:06,140 --> 01:01:08,180
and just listen to these guys.

1111
01:01:08,180 --> 01:01:10,660
But it was always a good time.

1112
01:01:10,660 --> 01:01:12,340
And you know, the one person I kind of,

1113
01:01:12,340 --> 01:01:14,220
I wish was here was probably Shaman,

1114
01:01:14,220 --> 01:01:16,300
because I think Shaman also was someone

1115
01:01:16,300 --> 01:01:17,940
who was very fluent,

1116
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:20,300
who could really speak to Lauren's level

1117
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:22,540
and had a huge influence on him as well.

1118
01:01:22,540 --> 01:01:25,340
And it was working with Shaman

1119
01:01:25,340 --> 01:01:27,340
with some of these kids from Queens, I remember,

1120
01:01:27,340 --> 01:01:29,060
for a while.

1121
01:01:29,060 --> 01:01:29,900
And Lauren was, you know,

1122
01:01:29,900 --> 01:01:30,980
we're always pointing the direction of Lauren.

1123
01:01:30,980 --> 01:01:33,020
If these kids had some big theoretical question,

1124
01:01:33,020 --> 01:01:34,900
I'm like, I can't answer value theory.

1125
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:36,820
You know, talk to Lauren Gold or something like that,

1126
01:01:36,820 --> 01:01:37,660
you know, and Lauren would be there.

1127
01:01:37,660 --> 01:01:40,300
He would just, he would come to you, you know?

1128
01:01:40,300 --> 01:01:44,400
And I think that's very unique, you know,

1129
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,100
where I think a lot of folks in this generation

1130
01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:48,180
have been sort of in sort of brittled

1131
01:01:48,180 --> 01:01:51,780
and just wanted to kind of talk and give you a party line.

1132
01:01:51,780 --> 01:01:55,060
I think Lauren was kind of a mix of the two.

1133
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,600
So I just remember him, you know,

1134
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,020
just telling all these anecdotes,

1135
01:01:59,020 --> 01:02:00,900
but just maybe to make it, to sort of lighten it up,

1136
01:02:00,900 --> 01:02:03,060
I remember, at least I laugh at this, you know,

1137
01:02:03,060 --> 01:02:04,380
two stories he tells.

1138
01:02:04,380 --> 01:02:06,460
One was maybe it was during the Nixon administration

1139
01:02:06,460 --> 01:02:08,220
with price controls and he was out

1140
01:02:08,220 --> 01:02:09,260
as a steel worker strike.

1141
01:02:09,260 --> 01:02:10,420
It might have been in New York.

1142
01:02:10,420 --> 01:02:12,940
I think he even mentioned DC, I can't remember.

1143
01:02:12,940 --> 01:02:13,780
But I mean, you know, Lauren,

1144
01:02:13,780 --> 01:02:15,700
as some of you may know on the call,

1145
01:02:15,700 --> 01:02:17,540
it was not a very big man.

1146
01:02:17,540 --> 01:02:19,020
And so he was somehow,

1147
01:02:19,020 --> 01:02:21,020
he was pushing his way through the steel workers

1148
01:02:21,020 --> 01:02:22,580
and he had a sign says, you know,

1149
01:02:22,580 --> 01:02:24,460
for socialist revolution.

1150
01:02:24,460 --> 01:02:25,300
At one point, you know,

1151
01:02:25,300 --> 01:02:27,140
there's two steel workers look over

1152
01:02:27,140 --> 01:02:28,180
and the one guy nudges each other.

1153
01:02:28,180 --> 01:02:30,220
It's like, yo, that's some wacko shit right there.

1154
01:02:30,220 --> 01:02:35,220
So, and the other one was,

1155
01:02:35,580 --> 01:02:38,140
he was never a fan of industrialization,

1156
01:02:38,140 --> 01:02:40,340
the policy that I think a lot of people like Hal Draper

1157
01:02:40,340 --> 01:02:41,460
and the IS tradition have,

1158
01:02:41,460 --> 01:02:44,480
this is when he was still in Northern California.

1159
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,300
But I guess at one point in the summer,

1160
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:48,620
they were doing like these brief,

1161
01:02:48,620 --> 01:02:50,020
almost like internships,

1162
01:02:50,020 --> 01:02:53,140
industrializing in local Bay area factories.

1163
01:02:53,140 --> 01:02:56,580
And he was on the assembly line, I guess,

1164
01:02:56,580 --> 01:02:59,020
and there was one of his comrades was next to him

1165
01:02:59,020 --> 01:03:00,860
and he was next to another worker.

1166
01:03:00,860 --> 01:03:02,900
And they're always trying to find, you know,

1167
01:03:02,900 --> 01:03:04,220
a way to kind of talk to these guys

1168
01:03:04,220 --> 01:03:06,180
and all that stuff, a little nervous.

1169
01:03:06,180 --> 01:03:08,540
And so his friend, you know, goes to this one worker.

1170
01:03:08,540 --> 01:03:09,660
It's like, hey, it's like,

1171
01:03:09,660 --> 01:03:11,700
who said workers of the world unite?

1172
01:03:11,700 --> 01:03:14,660
The guy looks over and he says, I don't know, Ralph?

1173
01:03:14,660 --> 01:03:16,900
So, you know, just things like that,

1174
01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:19,700
that were kind of like fun.

1175
01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:21,020
And then the last story I could tell,

1176
01:03:21,020 --> 01:03:22,340
that was also kind of fun as well.

1177
01:03:22,340 --> 01:03:23,660
It might've been during this period too,

1178
01:03:23,660 --> 01:03:26,300
was, you know, when these guys are industrializing,

1179
01:03:26,300 --> 01:03:27,260
it wasn't just the IS,

1180
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:30,620
it was some sort of proto Maoist faction or Stalinists.

1181
01:03:30,620 --> 01:03:33,940
It was a whole hodgepodge of kids from Berkeley basically.

1182
01:03:33,940 --> 01:03:37,740
And all of them were trying to like,

1183
01:03:37,740 --> 01:03:38,780
sort of stay silent,

1184
01:03:38,780 --> 01:03:41,140
see who's trying to fill each other out a little bit.

1185
01:03:41,140 --> 01:03:43,060
And I guess at one point, some of the workers sort of,

1186
01:03:43,060 --> 01:03:44,660
you know, caught wind of what they were,

1187
01:03:44,660 --> 01:03:46,060
the literature that they were passing out.

1188
01:03:46,060 --> 01:03:48,660
And one of the guys, this poor worker says,

1189
01:03:48,660 --> 01:03:51,380
well, why did the Soviet Union degenerate?

1190
01:03:51,380 --> 01:03:54,180
All of a sudden an explosion of all of these comments.

1191
01:03:54,180 --> 01:03:55,380
Well, it was because of Stalin,

1192
01:03:55,380 --> 01:03:57,340
the Stalinists are going to Trotsky's for it, you know,

1193
01:03:57,340 --> 01:03:58,180
all that stuff.

1194
01:03:58,180 --> 01:04:01,140
So he just had this institutional knowledge,

1195
01:04:01,140 --> 01:04:05,340
these anecdotes that I don't really think my generation,

1196
01:04:05,340 --> 01:04:06,180
I guess our generation,

1197
01:04:06,180 --> 01:04:08,140
we're probably all relatively the same age, you know,

1198
01:04:08,140 --> 01:04:11,020
really had, I think Occupy was pretty formative.

1199
01:04:11,020 --> 01:04:14,900
But when you look back at what Goldner had to go through

1200
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:17,100
in the eighties, for example, I mean, man,

1201
01:04:17,100 --> 01:04:19,820
that must've just been, you know, awful.

1202
01:04:21,700 --> 01:04:24,860
And, you know, he was someone who, you know,

1203
01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:26,180
I think about some of those reading groups

1204
01:04:26,180 --> 01:04:27,460
and trying to keep up and then, you know,

1205
01:04:27,460 --> 01:04:28,300
I'd always lie to him, I was like,

1206
01:04:28,300 --> 01:04:29,140
oh, did you read volume two?

1207
01:04:29,140 --> 01:04:30,420
Yeah, and I was like, yeah, yeah, I read it.

1208
01:04:30,420 --> 01:04:31,420
And, you know, of course I never did,

1209
01:04:31,420 --> 01:04:33,820
cause I couldn't get past the first 50 pages.

1210
01:04:34,980 --> 01:04:38,780
But, so yeah, you know, my kind of commentary

1211
01:04:38,780 --> 01:04:39,620
is sort of everywhere.

1212
01:04:39,620 --> 01:04:40,940
It's just sort of remembering the guy.

1213
01:04:40,940 --> 01:04:41,860
It was sort of strange though,

1214
01:04:41,860 --> 01:04:43,980
cause I had texted Sean maybe about a week ago,

1215
01:04:43,980 --> 01:04:45,300
or I don't know how long ago, just saying,

1216
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:47,660
hey, you know, what's, has he ever heard from Lauren?

1217
01:04:47,660 --> 01:04:50,700
Because I know in 2014 or so, when we had met up,

1218
01:04:50,700 --> 01:04:52,460
he had said he had cancer.

1219
01:04:52,460 --> 01:04:55,700
And he was very stoked about it.

1220
01:04:55,700 --> 01:04:57,620
And I don't think he really wanted to hear me, you know,

1221
01:04:57,620 --> 01:04:58,860
so how are you, blah, blah.

1222
01:04:58,860 --> 01:05:02,500
I think he just wanted to, you know, put it out in the ether.

1223
01:05:02,500 --> 01:05:03,940
So I would have kind of,

1224
01:05:03,940 --> 01:05:05,500
I don't know how public he was with that.

1225
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:08,460
I guess he probably told all of you to a certain extent,

1226
01:05:08,460 --> 01:05:10,420
but he really struggled with that for, you know,

1227
01:05:10,420 --> 01:05:11,260
several years, I guess.

1228
01:05:11,260 --> 01:05:13,420
I don't know if he succumbed to it,

1229
01:05:13,420 --> 01:05:15,500
but that was something that did not stop him.

1230
01:05:15,500 --> 01:05:17,740
He was still an intellectual powerhouse.

1231
01:05:17,740 --> 01:05:20,180
He would still read, he would still learn languages.

1232
01:05:20,180 --> 01:05:23,620
I mean, you know, just an incredible figure.

1233
01:05:23,620 --> 01:05:27,220
So I'll stop my ramble now, but, you know,

1234
01:05:27,220 --> 01:05:30,220
he was a friend too.

1235
01:05:30,220 --> 01:05:31,900
You know, we talked a lot about personal stuff too,

1236
01:05:31,900 --> 01:05:33,340
in the 10 or so years that I knew him.

1237
01:05:33,340 --> 01:05:37,620
And the last time I talked to him was probably in quarantine.

1238
01:05:37,620 --> 01:05:40,980
And, you know, I called him up and see how he's doing.

1239
01:05:40,980 --> 01:05:44,180
And, you know, he just talked about China and his, you know,

1240
01:05:44,180 --> 01:05:46,900
his big work on financialization of American capital.

1241
01:05:46,900 --> 01:05:48,900
And, you know, at the time I'm sitting there unemployed,

1242
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:50,180
I'm like, oh, cool.

1243
01:05:50,180 --> 01:05:53,860
But, you know, so I don't know, rest in peace, man, you know.

1244
01:05:54,940 --> 01:05:56,420
Thank you, Joe, so much.

1245
01:05:57,940 --> 01:06:02,180
To close out this Lauren Goldner Memorial episode,

1246
01:06:02,180 --> 01:06:04,620
I'm not gonna say anything particularly original.

1247
01:06:04,620 --> 01:06:06,660
I was taking notes on what everybody said

1248
01:06:06,660 --> 01:06:09,380
and a lot of the points converged.

1249
01:06:09,380 --> 01:06:12,660
So collectively, what we've said about Lauren Goldner

1250
01:06:12,660 --> 01:06:15,300
is that his critiques of fictitious capital

1251
01:06:15,300 --> 01:06:17,460
and the critique of political economy,

1252
01:06:17,460 --> 01:06:19,860
this thread of critique that he kept alive

1253
01:06:19,860 --> 01:06:22,980
all the way back from the 1960s was essential.

1254
01:06:22,980 --> 01:06:26,860
His understanding of alienation, his critique of ideology,

1255
01:06:26,860 --> 01:06:28,860
whether that be the ideology

1256
01:06:28,860 --> 01:06:32,620
of post-colonialist anti-imperialism

1257
01:06:32,620 --> 01:06:37,620
or the ideology of dogmatized Marxisms of the past

1258
01:06:37,900 --> 01:06:39,500
that had been handed down to us.

1259
01:06:41,180 --> 01:06:45,060
He was a constant critic of the dogmatization of theory.

1260
01:06:45,060 --> 01:06:49,180
He offered and proffered a dynamic and dialectical,

1261
01:06:49,180 --> 01:06:51,420
non-dogmatic Marxist vision,

1262
01:06:51,420 --> 01:06:53,700
the one that was grounded in the principle

1263
01:06:53,700 --> 01:06:56,860
of real working class struggle

1264
01:06:56,860 --> 01:06:58,580
and the lives of working class,

1265
01:06:58,580 --> 01:07:00,820
of the proletariat across the globe.

1266
01:07:02,100 --> 01:07:04,540
I guess the last thing I'd say is that

1267
01:07:04,540 --> 01:07:07,020
we should all be inspired by Lauren's life

1268
01:07:07,020 --> 01:07:10,060
and we should all hold his legacy close to us.

1269
01:07:10,060 --> 01:07:12,580
And of course, as you all know,

1270
01:07:12,580 --> 01:07:15,100
this isn't just a memorial for one man.

1271
01:07:15,100 --> 01:07:17,620
This is also, of course, his life and legacy

1272
01:07:17,620 --> 01:07:19,660
is a call to action for all of us.

1273
01:07:19,660 --> 01:07:23,140
I'm not saying that you need to learn six languages

1274
01:07:23,140 --> 01:07:24,860
in the next few years or so.

1275
01:07:24,860 --> 01:07:26,780
I'm not saying that you need to be

1276
01:07:26,780 --> 01:07:28,780
a positive revolutionary influence

1277
01:07:28,780 --> 01:07:30,540
on absolutely everybody you meet

1278
01:07:30,540 --> 01:07:32,740
for the entirety of the rest of your life,

1279
01:07:32,740 --> 01:07:34,420
that you have to live all over the globe

1280
01:07:34,420 --> 01:07:36,260
and meet people all over the globe

1281
01:07:36,260 --> 01:07:38,140
and engage with the working class struggle

1282
01:07:38,140 --> 01:07:41,140
day in and day out, always and everywhere.

1283
01:07:41,140 --> 01:07:42,900
But that is what Lauren Goldner did.

1284
01:07:42,900 --> 01:07:45,500
And he did that for us.

1285
01:07:45,500 --> 01:07:47,060
He did that for the working class.

1286
01:07:47,060 --> 01:07:48,060
He did that for the world.

1287
01:07:48,060 --> 01:07:49,660
He did that for humanity.

1288
01:07:49,660 --> 01:07:52,180
Because above all things, being a revolutionist,

1289
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:54,460
being a critic and being a theorist,

1290
01:07:54,460 --> 01:07:57,140
he was a lovely and dear human being

1291
01:07:57,140 --> 01:07:58,700
and a dear friend to us all.

1292
01:07:58,700 --> 01:08:01,980
So everybody, thank you so much for coming out

1293
01:08:01,980 --> 01:08:04,260
this episode to say your words for Lauren.

1294
01:08:04,260 --> 01:08:06,860
Lauren Goldner, rest in peace.

1295
01:08:06,860 --> 01:08:08,900
But I'll tell you one thing, Sean.

1296
01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:10,220
Yeah.

1297
01:08:10,220 --> 01:08:12,780
For people that are just maybe just starting

1298
01:08:12,780 --> 01:08:15,340
to listen to the podcast and never knew Lauren,

1299
01:08:15,340 --> 01:08:18,340
if you never knew him, if you never knew him,

1300
01:08:18,340 --> 01:08:20,300
well, your life is poorer for that.

1301
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:21,780
But he knew you.

1302
01:08:22,700 --> 01:08:26,460
And you were the sole focus of his life's work.

1303
01:08:26,460 --> 01:08:27,300
Absolutely.

1304
01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:28,140
Your struggle.

1305
01:08:28,140 --> 01:08:31,740
This is work that we will ensure goes on.

1306
01:08:31,740 --> 01:08:34,380
No one can fill his shoes.

1307
01:08:34,380 --> 01:08:35,740
But the work will continue.

1308
01:08:35,740 --> 01:08:37,220
I mean to see that it does.

1309
01:08:37,220 --> 01:08:42,220
And Lauren himself would tell you, I can fake it.

1310
01:08:42,260 --> 01:08:43,100
So.

1311
01:08:43,100 --> 01:08:43,940
Yeah.

1312
01:08:43,940 --> 01:08:46,260
That was great.

1313
01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:48,420
We will break their haughty power.

1314
01:08:48,420 --> 01:08:49,700
Break their haughty power.

1315
01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:50,540
Absolutely.

1316
01:08:50,540 --> 01:08:52,580
Rest in peace, your grace.

1317
01:08:52,580 --> 01:08:54,300
Hasta la victoria siempre.

1318
01:08:55,260 --> 01:08:57,780
I just found this email that he sent me at like,

1319
01:08:57,780 --> 01:08:59,500
I sent him some email like, oh man,

1320
01:08:59,500 --> 01:09:01,220
I'm really getting disillusioned

1321
01:09:01,220 --> 01:09:03,260
with all this Fico I've been reading.

1322
01:09:03,260 --> 01:09:07,060
And he just responded at like 2.47 in the morning.

1323
01:09:07,060 --> 01:09:09,020
The direction will make you whole.

1324
01:09:12,260 --> 01:09:13,300
Legend.

1325
01:09:13,300 --> 01:09:14,860
Absolute legend.

1326
01:09:14,860 --> 01:09:17,460
So Joe Lombardo says he was,

1327
01:09:17,460 --> 01:09:19,540
it's hard to fit in with the In Charge of Notes

1328
01:09:19,540 --> 01:09:22,660
and all these intellectual powerhouses.

1329
01:09:22,660 --> 01:09:24,540
I was the typesetter.

1330
01:09:26,460 --> 01:09:27,300
Oh, no, no.

1331
01:09:27,300 --> 01:09:28,420
Look, I don't want to misrepresent.

1332
01:09:28,420 --> 01:09:31,100
I was also a bougie academic from the new school too.

1333
01:09:31,100 --> 01:09:34,700
Don't, I don't want to misstate myself here.

1334
01:09:34,700 --> 01:09:36,740
Although I remember Ari and I had one class together

1335
01:09:36,740 --> 01:09:38,260
and I remember I think we were the lone Marxists

1336
01:09:38,260 --> 01:09:41,300
and Ari was going hard against the professor

1337
01:09:41,300 --> 01:09:42,620
on misinterpreting Hegel.

1338
01:09:42,620 --> 01:09:43,860
So I always remember that.

1339
01:09:43,860 --> 01:09:48,860
You don't remember the name of that coffee shop, do you?

1340
01:09:49,860 --> 01:09:50,860
I don't remember that.

1341
01:09:50,860 --> 01:09:52,220
I remember being at the meeting,

1342
01:09:52,220 --> 01:09:54,460
first In Charge of Notes meeting with Garvey.

1343
01:09:55,820 --> 01:09:58,580
Yeah, this coffee shop we sometimes had meetings at

1344
01:09:58,580 --> 01:10:03,580
was an old mafia hangout, like in the 40s.

1345
01:10:04,620 --> 01:10:06,300
I forgot one of the famous,

1346
01:10:06,300 --> 01:10:07,700
it was in the East Village, right?

1347
01:10:07,700 --> 01:10:10,700
It was like on Avenue A or First Avenue

1348
01:10:10,700 --> 01:10:11,540
or something like that.

1349
01:10:11,540 --> 01:10:12,380
But I don't know.

1350
01:10:12,380 --> 01:10:13,860
Allen Street.

1351
01:10:13,860 --> 01:10:15,260
I think it was down.

1352
01:10:15,260 --> 01:10:16,100
Going back.

1353
01:10:16,100 --> 01:10:18,580
Everywhere that was cool in New York is closed, it seems.

1354
01:10:18,580 --> 01:10:20,580
Going back into his writings,

1355
01:10:20,580 --> 01:10:23,300
over the last several days since I heard of his passing,

1356
01:10:23,300 --> 01:10:24,740
I was reading a bunch of stuff

1357
01:10:24,740 --> 01:10:26,620
that I haven't read in 15 years.

1358
01:10:26,620 --> 01:10:27,820
You guys ever have this experience

1359
01:10:27,820 --> 01:10:29,820
where you're going back and reading something

1360
01:10:29,820 --> 01:10:31,980
and you're like, oh, that's where I got this from.

1361
01:10:31,980 --> 01:10:33,340
Yeah. Yeah.

1362
01:10:33,340 --> 01:10:34,900
Like part of the spirit of the Antifada

1363
01:10:34,900 --> 01:10:38,140
was always like, we would bring up several times

1364
01:10:38,140 --> 01:10:40,580
the kind of jokey thing that Lauren said,

1365
01:10:40,580 --> 01:10:42,580
where it's like back in the 70s,

1366
01:10:42,580 --> 01:10:44,860
you could figure out what somebody's political tendency was

1367
01:10:44,860 --> 01:10:46,220
by the year that they thought

1368
01:10:46,220 --> 01:10:48,460
the Soviet Revolution had degenerated.

1369
01:10:49,460 --> 01:10:52,420
You kind of use that as like a quip or whatever.

1370
01:10:52,420 --> 01:10:54,100
But I went back and read the article.

1371
01:10:54,100 --> 01:10:55,620
It's an article about Ordega

1372
01:10:55,620 --> 01:10:59,780
and it's about the agrarian revolution.

1373
01:10:59,780 --> 01:11:01,700
And within that kind of jokey thing

1374
01:11:01,700 --> 01:11:04,980
that we've been using is like a whole theoretical apparatus

1375
01:11:04,980 --> 01:11:07,300
for understanding the degeneration

1376
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:10,020
of actually existing socialism and understanding.

1377
01:11:10,020 --> 01:11:11,740
And as like a developmentalist project,

1378
01:11:11,740 --> 01:11:14,660
which comes out of like a bourgeois problematic

1379
01:11:14,660 --> 01:11:16,900
of like capitalization of agriculture.

1380
01:11:16,900 --> 01:11:18,980
Like the whole thing is fucking great.

1381
01:11:18,980 --> 01:11:21,580
So I'm sure this is still gonna go in the episode.

1382
01:11:21,580 --> 01:11:22,940
We're gonna make a whole,

1383
01:11:22,940 --> 01:11:25,220
I have a whole list of the articles that people mentioned

1384
01:11:25,220 --> 01:11:26,420
and we'll put more into,

1385
01:11:26,420 --> 01:11:29,380
but like even if it's been years and you were like,

1386
01:11:29,380 --> 01:11:32,580
I read Lord Goldner back 10 years ago or whatever,

1387
01:11:32,580 --> 01:11:33,660
pick it up again, man.

1388
01:11:33,660 --> 01:11:36,060
It just formative, formative stuff.

1389
01:11:36,060 --> 01:11:37,780
Yeah, that quip.

1390
01:11:37,780 --> 01:11:38,860
Go on, sorry.

1391
01:11:38,860 --> 01:11:40,420
I was gonna say like,

1392
01:11:40,420 --> 01:11:43,420
I mean, there's a German writer, Bini Adamzak,

1393
01:11:43,420 --> 01:11:45,700
who wrote a book called Yesterday is Tomorrow

1394
01:11:45,700 --> 01:11:49,500
that quotes that section of, yeah, she's great.

1395
01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:52,100
And that book is amazing too.

1396
01:11:52,100 --> 01:11:54,900
And yeah, it's almost like she develops a theory.

1397
01:11:54,900 --> 01:11:58,940
She spins a theory out of that entire, just that premise.

1398
01:11:58,940 --> 01:12:00,180
I remember too, like, yeah,

1399
01:12:00,180 --> 01:12:03,820
one of the first articles I read by him was his review

1400
01:12:03,820 --> 01:12:06,380
of Postone's Time, Labor, and Social Domination,

1401
01:12:06,380 --> 01:12:08,620
because I'd been a student of Postone.

1402
01:12:08,620 --> 01:12:13,220
I was so impressed by it as one of the few really,

1403
01:12:13,220 --> 01:12:16,940
I think, compelling criticisms of Postone

1404
01:12:16,940 --> 01:12:19,500
that wasn't just trying to write him off as just like,

1405
01:12:19,500 --> 01:12:22,820
oh, he's not interested in class struggle or whatnot.

1406
01:12:22,820 --> 01:12:24,580
Coming at it from a very deep,

1407
01:12:24,580 --> 01:12:26,620
like sort of Hegelian Marxist understanding,

1408
01:12:26,620 --> 01:12:30,740
I was just, yeah, very impressed by it.

1409
01:12:30,740 --> 01:12:32,180
With that one in the notes too.

1410
01:12:32,180 --> 01:12:33,300
All right, Andy, what do you think?

1411
01:12:33,300 --> 01:12:36,580
We got ourselves a podcast, a memorial podcast?

1412
01:12:36,580 --> 01:12:38,820
Yeah, sure, I mean, the anecdotes are great.

1413
01:12:38,820 --> 01:12:40,580
I'm down to keep hearing those,

1414
01:12:40,580 --> 01:12:42,700
but I'll leave it up to you guys.

1415
01:12:42,700 --> 01:12:44,940
Oh yeah, we got, there's billions of those.

1416
01:12:46,100 --> 01:12:48,980
Joe was talking about Lauren and his ill-fitting clothes

1417
01:12:48,980 --> 01:12:51,540
with his big backpack full of books all the time.

1418
01:12:51,540 --> 01:12:53,020
I think the backpack's the only thing

1419
01:12:53,020 --> 01:12:55,140
that kept him warm in the winter,

1420
01:12:55,140 --> 01:12:57,300
because I always used to say,

1421
01:12:57,300 --> 01:13:00,620
Lauren Goldner would give you this shirt off his back,

1422
01:13:00,620 --> 01:13:02,980
but he really only had that one shirt.

1423
01:13:04,300 --> 01:13:05,500
He wore it everywhere.

1424
01:13:06,980 --> 01:13:07,820
I just remember-

1425
01:13:07,820 --> 01:13:11,660
He wore that fucking thing everywhere.

1426
01:13:11,660 --> 01:13:14,780
Winter, summer, that was his wardrobe.

1427
01:13:14,780 --> 01:13:19,660
He was awesome, an absolute miser when it came to clothing.

1428
01:13:19,660 --> 01:13:23,260
He was not a victim of intellectual fashion

1429
01:13:23,260 --> 01:13:25,140
or fashion in general.

1430
01:13:25,140 --> 01:13:30,140
At the very worst, coldest days of the winter,

1431
01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:33,540
he might have a thin jacket or something, but nah, man.

1432
01:13:33,540 --> 01:13:35,620
He had that one shirt, he wore it all the time.

1433
01:13:35,620 --> 01:13:37,860
Yeah, and something I was thinking about,

1434
01:13:37,860 --> 01:13:39,700
I think all of us are saying this,

1435
01:13:39,700 --> 01:13:44,700
it's like, I think that generation of 68, ultra left,

1436
01:13:45,540 --> 01:13:48,180
I don't know, I think this is why this podcast

1437
01:13:48,180 --> 01:13:49,140
is so important, right?

1438
01:13:49,140 --> 01:13:52,860
It's like, how do we keep memories alive?

1439
01:13:52,860 --> 01:13:55,940
How do we build some type of institutional memory?

1440
01:13:56,860 --> 01:13:59,060
I felt kind of sad about thinking

1441
01:14:00,460 --> 01:14:03,540
what's going to happen to all of Lauren's work?

1442
01:14:03,540 --> 01:14:05,460
Some of it is on that website.

1443
01:14:05,460 --> 01:14:08,020
I'm sure a lot of it has not been published.

1444
01:14:09,020 --> 01:14:11,940
And when we look at the right or the liberals,

1445
01:14:11,940 --> 01:14:14,180
they're so good at building these institutions

1446
01:14:14,180 --> 01:14:17,340
and keeping those memories, but I don't know.

1447
01:14:17,340 --> 01:14:19,620
I just, it makes me a little sad sometimes

1448
01:14:19,620 --> 01:14:22,060
and grateful also for this podcast,

1449
01:14:22,060 --> 01:14:26,020
for us to talk about Lauren's contributions

1450
01:14:26,020 --> 01:14:29,700
to newer generations and to hopefully continue

1451
01:14:29,700 --> 01:14:32,220
that legacy of building with younger folks,

1452
01:14:32,220 --> 01:14:33,420
because I think that's really important.

1453
01:14:33,420 --> 01:14:34,620
Otherwise it gets kind of lost,

1454
01:14:34,620 --> 01:14:36,260
especially in the digital age, right?

1455
01:14:36,260 --> 01:14:38,500
Like how do we keep that memory alive?

1456
01:14:38,500 --> 01:14:41,700
Like all those correspondences, like all those debates,

1457
01:14:41,700 --> 01:14:46,020
like the trajectory of ultra leftism,

1458
01:14:46,020 --> 01:14:48,740
like what is it, what does it mean?

1459
01:14:48,740 --> 01:14:53,060
And especially now, I think when it's so easy to claim

1460
01:14:53,060 --> 01:14:54,980
to be like a revolutionary, right?

1461
01:14:54,980 --> 01:14:57,660
But to maybe have some like liberal reformist politics.

1462
01:14:57,660 --> 01:15:00,460
And I think Lauren was very critical

1463
01:15:00,460 --> 01:15:03,500
of a lot of reformist strategies today.

1464
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:05,940
So I don't know, I just think it's really important

1465
01:15:05,940 --> 01:15:08,540
to have this podcast and these conversations.

1466
01:15:08,540 --> 01:15:10,260
Well, thank you for that.

1467
01:15:10,260 --> 01:15:12,780
Oh yeah, and you can punch this in or discard it,

1468
01:15:12,780 --> 01:15:15,220
but I just really wanted to emphasize

1469
01:15:15,220 --> 01:15:17,940
that Lauren was a really great example

1470
01:15:17,940 --> 01:15:22,220
of somebody who had a very serious

1471
01:15:22,220 --> 01:15:25,900
anti-system revolutionary line

1472
01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:30,660
that was nonetheless faithful to Marx and Marxism.

1473
01:15:30,660 --> 01:15:32,660
Something that I love about the antifada

1474
01:15:32,660 --> 01:15:34,980
and the work of everybody I'm looking at

1475
01:15:34,980 --> 01:15:39,260
on the screen right now is really the earnest attempt

1476
01:15:39,260 --> 01:15:41,700
to kind of square this circle,

1477
01:15:41,700 --> 01:15:45,580
to hold aloft kind of the promise of Marxism

1478
01:15:45,580 --> 01:15:49,380
without succumbing to reformism or nihilism.

1479
01:15:49,380 --> 01:15:51,260
And there's a great passage that I wanted

1480
01:15:51,260 --> 01:15:55,940
to just pull real quick from the Vanguard of Retrogression,

1481
01:15:55,940 --> 01:15:58,220
my favorite book cover of all time.

1482
01:16:00,060 --> 01:16:03,460
And you actually can judge this book by its cover.

1483
01:16:03,460 --> 01:16:05,140
He basically, he has this theory

1484
01:16:05,140 --> 01:16:06,620
of the middle-class radical.

1485
01:16:06,620 --> 01:16:09,420
And I just, to call back something

1486
01:16:09,420 --> 01:16:11,420
that a few of you have said,

1487
01:16:11,420 --> 01:16:13,700
just imagine Lauren having lived through

1488
01:16:13,700 --> 01:16:16,860
the promise of 1967, he had to suffer

1489
01:16:16,860 --> 01:16:20,620
through the 80s and 90s and everything's just a tax

1490
01:16:20,620 --> 01:16:23,420
and Marx is an old heterosexual white man

1491
01:16:23,420 --> 01:16:24,460
and all the rest of that.

1492
01:16:24,460 --> 01:16:27,900
He's talking about the middle-class radical.

1493
01:16:27,900 --> 01:16:29,860
For the middle-class radical view,

1494
01:16:29,860 --> 01:16:33,660
the problems are hierarchy, authority, domination,

1495
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:35,180
and power.

1496
01:16:35,180 --> 01:16:37,580
For the Marxian communist view,

1497
01:16:37,580 --> 01:16:42,180
the problems are the project of the abolition of value,

1498
01:16:42,180 --> 01:16:46,660
commodity production, wage labor, and the proletariat.

1499
01:16:46,660 --> 01:16:49,580
The latter of course being the commodity form

1500
01:16:49,580 --> 01:16:52,220
of labor power within capitalism.

1501
01:16:54,020 --> 01:16:57,260
I mean, it's simple on paper,

1502
01:16:57,260 --> 01:17:00,300
but I find like trying to make sense

1503
01:17:00,300 --> 01:17:02,780
of the political terrain today,

1504
01:17:02,780 --> 01:17:06,100
like the point of what we're doing

1505
01:17:06,100 --> 01:17:08,380
is the realization of communism.

1506
01:17:08,380 --> 01:17:11,700
It's not a destructive act.

1507
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:13,220
It's a creative act.

1508
01:17:14,100 --> 01:17:16,540
And it's latent within capitalism,

1509
01:17:16,540 --> 01:17:18,500
albeit in all kinds of really ugly,

1510
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:20,340
nasty one-dimensional ways.

1511
01:17:20,340 --> 01:17:22,860
And I just really wanted to put that out there for,

1512
01:17:22,860 --> 01:17:24,300
specifically for these younger folks

1513
01:17:24,300 --> 01:17:26,180
that we're imagining listening to the Antifada,

1514
01:17:26,180 --> 01:17:28,300
though I'm not sure if they actually exist.

1515
01:17:28,300 --> 01:17:30,820
There's really necessary work to be done

1516
01:17:30,820 --> 01:17:34,140
to really take seriously the anti-state,

1517
01:17:34,140 --> 01:17:37,540
anti-system approach in a way that just does not succumb

1518
01:17:37,540 --> 01:17:40,020
to just destruction, nihilism, and all the rest.

1519
01:17:40,020 --> 01:17:42,820
And Goldner really shines the light forward for that.

1520
01:17:44,380 --> 01:17:46,060
As I said, the movement was running out of steam

1521
01:17:46,060 --> 01:17:47,220
in the early 90s.

1522
01:17:48,300 --> 01:17:51,180
And the Soviet Union, it was very surprising to me

1523
01:17:51,180 --> 01:17:54,940
to hear this from various people that I met 15

1524
01:17:54,940 --> 01:17:56,620
and some years later.

1525
01:17:56,620 --> 01:17:58,540
It was experienced like the death of God

1526
01:17:58,540 --> 01:18:01,340
in the 19th century in the West.

1527
01:18:02,580 --> 01:18:06,220
Anyone who was around in the 60s and 70s in the US

1528
01:18:06,220 --> 01:18:08,220
or the United States knows that there were

1529
01:18:08,220 --> 01:18:11,580
pro-Soviet elements, but the critique of Stalinism,

1530
01:18:11,580 --> 01:18:14,420
of the Trotskyist form, the anarchist form,

1531
01:18:14,420 --> 01:18:18,300
the left communist form was in the air and widely debated.

1532
01:18:18,300 --> 01:18:23,300
Whereas in Korea, because of its different position

1533
01:18:26,620 --> 01:18:29,020
in terms of overall capitalist development,

1534
01:18:29,020 --> 01:18:33,180
much more open to the Stalinist forms I mentioned earlier,

1535
01:18:33,180 --> 01:18:35,820
the Soviet Union just loomed large,

1536
01:18:35,820 --> 01:18:37,540
even for people who were pro-China

1537
01:18:37,540 --> 01:18:40,540
or pro-North Korea in a way that was,

1538
01:18:40,540 --> 01:18:42,060
we just didn't experience it here.

1539
01:18:42,060 --> 01:18:45,420
So I met people who just went into seclusion

1540
01:18:45,420 --> 01:18:47,780
when the Soviet Union collapsed.

1541
01:18:47,780 --> 01:18:51,820
They just said, well, I guess socialism, communism

1542
01:18:51,820 --> 01:18:54,940
is a myth after all, and it's just not possible.

1543
01:18:54,940 --> 01:18:57,220
And there was incredible demoralization.

1544
01:18:57,220 --> 01:19:01,260
And in a way that happened in the United States

1545
01:19:01,260 --> 01:19:04,260
around 1970, a little later in Europe,

1546
01:19:04,260 --> 01:19:06,860
people with middle-class credentials

1547
01:19:06,860 --> 01:19:09,220
that they could cash in, cash them in,

1548
01:19:09,220 --> 01:19:13,460
and became professionals and sort of privatized.

1549
01:19:13,460 --> 01:19:16,060
And it was also at that very time

1550
01:19:16,060 --> 01:19:18,580
that post-modernism in different forms,

1551
01:19:18,580 --> 01:19:22,860
Derrida, Foucault, Lacan, you name it,

1552
01:19:22,860 --> 01:19:27,300
suddenly started massively being translated into Korean,

1553
01:19:27,300 --> 01:19:29,580
not from French, mind you, but from English.

1554
01:19:30,740 --> 01:19:34,660
I can only imagine what Derrida sounds like in Korean.

1555
01:19:34,660 --> 01:19:37,140
One of the things when you read his writing,

1556
01:19:37,140 --> 01:19:40,300
going back to the 70s, 80s, 90s, and the aughts,

1557
01:19:40,300 --> 01:19:43,180
certainly before the great financial crisis,

1558
01:19:43,180 --> 01:19:48,180
is the parlous state of the Anglophone and Western left,

1559
01:19:48,580 --> 01:19:50,940
whether, as you said, those are reformists,

1560
01:19:50,940 --> 01:19:54,860
or whether they are some flavor of Marxism,

1561
01:19:54,860 --> 01:19:58,420
Leninism, Maoism, Hoxhaism, whatever.

1562
01:19:58,420 --> 01:20:01,180
And unfortunately, what Goldner's critiquing

1563
01:20:01,180 --> 01:20:02,820
in the 60s and 70s,

1564
01:20:02,820 --> 01:20:05,620
it's maybe even worse right now.

1565
01:20:05,620 --> 01:20:08,340
And so I'm not trying to make this a dour thing.

1566
01:20:08,340 --> 01:20:10,220
It's actually kind of a hopeful thing.

1567
01:20:10,220 --> 01:20:12,420
He was really alone for many decades,

1568
01:20:12,420 --> 01:20:13,700
not alone as a person,

1569
01:20:13,700 --> 01:20:15,500
because he gathered people around him,

1570
01:20:15,500 --> 01:20:18,740
but alone as a dynamic thinker, as a critical thinker,

1571
01:20:18,740 --> 01:20:22,340
as Jared said, somebody with a counter-systemic analysis

1572
01:20:22,340 --> 01:20:24,660
that was real and vibrant and attuned to the moments

1573
01:20:24,660 --> 01:20:26,020
and the time.

1574
01:20:26,020 --> 01:20:28,180
Despite being alone in that,

1575
01:20:28,180 --> 01:20:31,020
through large swaths of decades,

1576
01:20:31,020 --> 01:20:34,180
he pushed forward and he fought through it.

1577
01:20:34,180 --> 01:20:37,100
And in a very real sense, when the financial crisis comes

1578
01:20:37,100 --> 01:20:39,660
and there is a return to the critique of political economy,

1579
01:20:39,660 --> 01:20:42,540
people start taking the proletariat seriously again.

1580
01:20:42,540 --> 01:20:43,660
He was there.

1581
01:20:43,660 --> 01:20:46,220
So he went through the muck and the mire of those decades

1582
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:47,860
of the Jesse Jackson campaign,

1583
01:20:47,860 --> 01:20:50,460
of voting for Walter Mondale,

1584
01:20:50,460 --> 01:20:53,540
or whatever shitty thing was happening in American politics.

1585
01:20:53,540 --> 01:20:55,700
And his time did come.

1586
01:20:55,700 --> 01:20:58,660
And we here on this panel are evidence

1587
01:20:58,660 --> 01:21:00,220
that his time did come.

1588
01:21:00,220 --> 01:21:01,420
So if you're out there listening,

1589
01:21:01,420 --> 01:21:03,500
if you're one of these apocryphal young people, right?

1590
01:21:03,500 --> 01:21:05,740
And you feel like, well, everybody around me

1591
01:21:05,740 --> 01:21:08,060
is just trying to say that Hamas is the key

1592
01:21:08,060 --> 01:21:10,340
to proletarian revolution.

1593
01:21:10,340 --> 01:21:12,420
And I feel out of step with everybody in the world,

1594
01:21:12,420 --> 01:21:16,340
ba ba ba, just know that that can be your reality

1595
01:21:16,340 --> 01:21:17,820
for a period of time.

1596
01:21:17,820 --> 01:21:20,540
But Lauren Goldner, by and large, was right about things

1597
01:21:20,540 --> 01:21:21,860
for the last 50 years or so.

1598
01:21:21,860 --> 01:21:24,860
And he found his people at the end and he kept his voice

1599
01:21:24,860 --> 01:21:27,500
and he fought and he struggled to the end of his life

1600
01:21:27,500 --> 01:21:32,300
to gift all of us the knowledge and his legacy

1601
01:21:32,300 --> 01:21:33,500
that we're carrying with us.

1602
01:21:33,500 --> 01:21:34,660
So it's a hopeful note.

1603
01:21:36,620 --> 01:21:39,300
Yeah, I will say too, Lauren,

1604
01:21:40,260 --> 01:21:42,260
and I'm sure that the article's probably still available

1605
01:21:42,260 --> 01:21:45,460
in his interview with South Korean communists,

1606
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:47,180
they asked him,

1607
01:21:47,180 --> 01:21:49,700
well, would you have done anything differently in 1917?

1608
01:21:49,700 --> 01:21:51,500
He says, no, I would have probably made

1609
01:21:51,500 --> 01:21:54,180
the exact same mistakes as Lenin did.

1610
01:21:54,180 --> 01:21:55,820
And I think that's a certain humility

1611
01:21:55,820 --> 01:21:57,540
that you're not gonna find,

1612
01:21:57,540 --> 01:21:59,340
at least in my forays with the ultra left,

1613
01:21:59,340 --> 01:22:01,500
that no one would ever wanna admit.

1614
01:22:01,500 --> 01:22:03,260
And so I think that there is part of Lauren

1615
01:22:03,260 --> 01:22:05,140
where, as some folks had said,

1616
01:22:05,140 --> 01:22:07,060
he might've critiqued Trotsky,

1617
01:22:07,060 --> 01:22:08,300
might've critiqued Lenin,

1618
01:22:09,260 --> 01:22:11,140
but I think also too, he kind of understood

1619
01:22:11,140 --> 01:22:14,340
some of those stomach blocks that he himself

1620
01:22:14,340 --> 01:22:15,940
probably would have made

1621
01:22:15,940 --> 01:22:17,860
had he been back in that time as well.

1622
01:22:17,860 --> 01:22:19,780
And I think that's tough for a lot of folks

1623
01:22:19,780 --> 01:22:22,700
to wrap their heads around in certain millions.

1624
01:22:22,700 --> 01:22:24,220
So for what it's worth.

1625
01:22:24,220 --> 01:22:27,060
Two things that Lauren used to say a lot

1626
01:22:27,060 --> 01:22:32,060
that I think kind of represent how he was,

1627
01:22:32,060 --> 01:22:32,900
but they're very different.

1628
01:22:32,900 --> 01:22:37,900
One was from a simple scratch, you can get gangrene,

1629
01:22:37,900 --> 01:22:42,900
which he meant if you let stupid, sloppy ideas in,

1630
01:22:45,060 --> 01:22:46,940
they can soon kind of degenerate.

1631
01:22:46,940 --> 01:22:48,820
He was like with the movement generally.

1632
01:22:48,820 --> 01:22:51,420
And then another that's, I think about a lot,

1633
01:22:51,420 --> 01:22:56,420
he says, it is often those who think revolution

1634
01:22:57,860 --> 01:23:01,660
is right around the corner in high points of struggle

1635
01:23:01,660 --> 01:23:03,620
that think revolution is impossible

1636
01:23:03,620 --> 01:23:05,260
in low periods of struggle.

1637
01:23:05,260 --> 01:23:09,020
So I'll end it on that for me.

1638
01:23:09,020 --> 01:23:12,020
All right, do we have a quorum to break up this meeting

1639
01:23:12,020 --> 01:23:14,420
of the Lauren Goldner Appreciation Society

1640
01:23:14,420 --> 01:23:16,620
slash Memorial Podcast?

1641
01:23:16,620 --> 01:23:18,980
Like you said, we'll all meet at the end of the week.

1642
01:23:18,980 --> 01:23:22,300
Thank you to everybody for listening to us and our thoughts.

1643
01:23:22,300 --> 01:23:24,220
And we're gonna, as I said before,

1644
01:23:24,220 --> 01:23:27,340
put a whole bunch of links in the show notes.

1645
01:23:27,340 --> 01:23:29,660
You should really check out Lauren's entire archive,

1646
01:23:29,660 --> 01:23:34,660
which will live on as well as thoughts and his memories.

1647
01:23:34,980 --> 01:23:36,380
Thank you everybody for listening.

1648
01:23:36,380 --> 01:23:39,380
["Memorial Podcast"]

1649
01:23:41,060 --> 01:23:46,020
They have taken on told millions that they will

1650
01:23:46,020 --> 01:23:51,020
never toil to earn.

1651
01:23:52,820 --> 01:23:56,900
But without our brains and muscle,

1652
01:23:56,900 --> 01:24:01,100
not a single wheel can turn.

1653
01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:05,260
We will break their haughty power,

1654
01:24:05,260 --> 01:24:09,460
gain our freedom when we learn

1655
01:24:09,460 --> 01:24:14,460
that the union makes us strong.

1656
01:24:14,460 --> 01:24:17,460
Of course, in solidarity forever.

1657
01:24:17,460 --> 01:24:22,460
Solidarity forever.

1658
01:24:25,460 --> 01:24:30,460
Solidarity forever.

1659
01:24:33,460 --> 01:24:38,460
Solidarity forever.

1660
01:24:38,460 --> 01:24:43,460
Forever, for the union makes us strong.

1661
01:24:49,340 --> 01:24:53,380
In our hands is placed a power

1662
01:24:53,380 --> 01:24:57,260
greater than their hoarded goal,

1663
01:24:57,260 --> 01:25:00,860
greater than the might of atoms

1664
01:25:00,860 --> 01:25:05,180
multiplied a million fold.

1665
01:25:05,180 --> 01:25:09,140
We will give birth to a new world

1666
01:25:09,140 --> 01:25:12,980
from the ashes of the old,

1667
01:25:12,980 --> 01:25:17,980
for the union makes us strong.

1668
01:25:21,580 --> 01:25:26,580
Solidarity forever.

1669
01:25:26,580 --> 01:25:31,580
Solidarity forever.

1670
01:25:32,580 --> 01:25:37,580
Solidarity forever.

1671
01:25:38,580 --> 01:25:43,580
Solidarity forever.

1672
01:25:44,580 --> 01:25:49,580
For the union makes us strong.

1673
01:25:52,580 --> 01:25:55,580
It is we who plough the prairies,

1674
01:25:55,580 --> 01:25:58,580
built the cities where they trade,

1675
01:25:58,580 --> 01:26:02,580
dug the mines, built the workshops,

1676
01:26:02,580 --> 01:26:06,580
endless miles of railway laid.

1677
01:26:06,580 --> 01:26:10,580
Now we stand outcast and starving

1678
01:26:10,580 --> 01:26:14,580
amid these wonders we have made,

1679
01:26:14,580 --> 01:26:19,580
for the union makes us strong.

1680
01:26:19,580 --> 01:26:24,580
Solidarity forever.

1681
01:26:24,580 --> 01:26:29,580
Solidarity forever.

1682
01:26:30,580 --> 01:26:35,580
Solidarity forever.

1683
01:26:36,580 --> 01:26:41,580
Solidarity forever.

1684
01:26:41,580 --> 01:26:48,580
For the union makes us strong.

1685
01:26:48,580 --> 01:26:52,580
When the union's inspiration

1686
01:26:52,580 --> 01:26:56,580
through the workers' blood shall run,

1687
01:26:56,580 --> 01:27:00,580
there can be no power greater

1688
01:27:00,580 --> 01:27:04,580
any well beneath the sun.

1689
01:27:04,580 --> 01:27:07,580
Yet what on earth is weaker

1690
01:27:07,580 --> 01:27:11,580
than the feeble strength of one

1691
01:27:11,580 --> 01:27:16,580
that the union makes us strong?

1692
01:27:19,580 --> 01:27:25,580
Solidarity forever.

1693
01:27:26,580 --> 01:27:32,580
Solidarity forever.

1694
01:27:32,580 --> 01:27:37,580
Solidarity forever.

1695
01:27:37,580 --> 01:28:05,580
For the union makes us strong.