1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 This is a Bergen Film Club podcast. 2 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Hello! 3 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,760 Welcome to The Reel Thing. 4 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,960 I'm your host, Joe Lawrence. 5 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:04,920 The Real Thing is an extension of Bergen Film Club, which is an independent cinema society 6 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,440 in Bergen, Norway. 7 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:14,040 As part of our program, we aim to include films that don't get the limelight that they 8 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:21,160 deserve, so we try and shine said limelight upon them, highlighting small minority country 9 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:26,120 films, female directors, and so on. 10 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:33,080 This podcast, I talk about the films that are included in the program, applying some 11 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:39,600 more information, wider context, into the presentation of the film. 12 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,280 Today we have a very special episode. 13 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:52,960 We were joined by Hanna Römsing, which she is a former BFK member and is a current librarian 14 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,320 extraordinaire at the Bergen Public Library. 15 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:07,880 We showed the movie The Beast from 2023, or La Bête in French, which is based on a Henry 16 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:15,400 James short story called The Beast in the Jungle from way beginning of the 20th century. 17 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:21,120 We did a collab screening with the library, where we had a pop-up library just to kind 18 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,040 of contextualize the film and talk about adaptations in general. 19 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,040 Hanna joined us to talk about this. 20 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,720 This was a really great conversation. 21 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:31,920 I really enjoyed it. 22 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:32,920 It was insightful. 23 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:37,240 Hanna is a wealth of knowledge on all things. 24 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:45,880 So it was great to have a real pro on the podcast for once. 25 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Without further ado, here is mine and Hanna's conversation about The Beast. 26 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,680 Hello. 27 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:18,800 And welcome back to the podcast, Hanna Römsing. 28 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:19,800 Thank you so much. 29 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:20,800 Yeah. 30 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,800 Thank you for coming back. 31 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:32,080 You're a BFK family, I guess, podcast alum, BFK alum and librarian extraordinaire. 32 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,080 Thank you. 33 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,160 That is a combination of titles I'm very happy with. 34 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,600 Yes. 35 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:43,560 So you are joining us to talk about the movie The Beast from 2023, which we recently showed 36 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:51,160 at the Film Club as part of a collaboration with Bergen Film Club and the Public Library 37 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,480 and Bergen. 38 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,440 Don't talk about that collaboration. 39 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Sure. 40 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,160 It was a magical night. 41 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:08,880 And I hope people who were there will get to listen to this episode and hopefully get 42 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:14,960 some thoughts going on how to navigate the movie. 43 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,000 Because that's what the collaboration was all about. 44 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,280 We are doing a series of events at the library where we try to take advantage of the nice 45 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:34,360 symbiosis that exists between a film adaptation and the original work. 46 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:43,920 Because we find a lot of the time when there is an adaptation and maybe The Beast is not 47 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:52,360 as obvious because you have to know that it is based on a novella to be interested in 48 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:53,840 finding the text. 49 00:04:53,840 --> 00:05:02,400 But let's say with Dune or any kind of major film based on a major book, we see that people 50 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,200 really want to read it. 51 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:10,880 And we see the numbers really go up for that specific book. 52 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:20,440 And it can also be a great incentive to read if you have seen a movie and you just want 53 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:21,860 more. 54 00:05:21,860 --> 00:05:32,000 And I think that The Beast and The Beast in the Jungle is the perfect example of how you 55 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,360 can both perhaps understand the film better. 56 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:42,040 And maybe you can also get completely new ideas from it. 57 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,680 So we wanted to encourage that. 58 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:52,160 And I'm very excited to talk about how that actually translates in the film. 59 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,560 Yeah, great. 60 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,860 It's a very cool concept for sure. 61 00:05:55,860 --> 00:06:01,720 Something I definitely relate to massively because that's why I read Dune is because 62 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,920 I watched the films and it kind of propelled me. 63 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,440 I was like, I need to know more about this world right now. 64 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,960 So that's what led me to read the books this year. 65 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:17,100 And it must have really been amazing because for me it was the other way around. 66 00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:26,080 And I read this gigantic work and then I thought like, how are they going to do it? 67 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:33,400 First of all, I was very happy that it wasn't crammed into single running time like David 68 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,560 Lynch tried. 69 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:43,000 But when it's the other way around, you feel this universe expand and you always know like 70 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,560 this is a place I want to be. 71 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,280 This is a place I want to visit. 72 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:48,480 Yeah, absolutely. 73 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,760 I was just so like, I need to know everything about the worms and I need to know everything 74 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,040 about the Bene Gesserit. 75 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,960 So now I'm beginning my own crusade through the Dune series, actually. 76 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,480 Yeah, I hope you got what you wanted, but I'm pretty sure you did. 77 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,600 Yeah, so we're not here to talk about Dune, unfortunately. 78 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,240 But fortunately, we are here to talk about The Beast from 2023. 79 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:21,600 As you mentioned, it's an adaptation of the Henry James novel The Beast in the Jungle 80 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,120 or novella, I should say. 81 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:29,760 Do you want to talk a little bit about that as a novella and how it kind of acts as a 82 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,680 springboard into the universe of the film? 83 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,240 Sure. 84 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:45,840 So Henry James is probably known to the people that are aware of him for his famous ghost 85 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,200 story Turn of the Screw. 86 00:07:48,200 --> 00:08:03,320 And that is ambiguous in a way, and that's why his authorship is considered a transition 87 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:12,760 between realism and modernism, because he really goes into the psychology of his characters. 88 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,560 And that is definitely happening in The Beast in the Jungle. 89 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:26,120 It's a novella, a short story, and that means that in quite a short read, you can get this 90 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:39,480 amazing, dense allegory that Bonello chooses to make his film explore and take even further. 91 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:47,880 But it's based around a very simple premise, a man and a woman meet at a party, and they 92 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:55,840 are very aware of each other from the beginning, and they wait to be alone. 93 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:03,000 And they have this recollection of each other from an earlier event. 94 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:10,800 And when the man finally admits it, the woman corrects him on some details, and then she 95 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:20,000 says, I'll never forget you because you said something that I'll always remember. 96 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:30,000 And they talk back and forth, and she admits what he said that time in Naples. 97 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:37,120 He said that he felt like there was a disaster that was going to happen to him in his life, 98 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:42,080 and that it was waiting for him like a beast in the jungle. 99 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:52,640 And then you can kind of feel their connection very vividly, and she decides that she'll 100 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:53,640 watch for him. 101 00:09:53,640 --> 00:10:01,600 She'll watch for the beast with him, and then the story moves on to describe their relationship 102 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:02,600 through life. 103 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:03,600 They go to the opera. 104 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,680 They become companions in a way, platonic companions. 105 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:16,840 And then towards the end of her life, when she becomes sick, it's clear that she tries 106 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:26,240 to communicate with him that she has realized the awful event or what it is she tries to 107 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,880 tell him. 108 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:38,920 And then he does not really understand, and he comes back to her later, and she says, 109 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:39,920 it has happened. 110 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,440 It has passed. 111 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,960 The event you were scared of has passed. 112 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:49,160 And he still does not realize. 113 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,400 And then she dies, and he travels the world. 114 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,760 He is not really impressed by it. 115 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,920 He's grieving. 116 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,680 And then he's at a graveyard. 117 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:03,240 He visits her tombstone. 118 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:10,480 He's standing there reflecting, and then he sees a man who had passed, and he sees a look 119 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:16,900 of ravenous grief on the man's face. 120 00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:26,120 And he realizes that the man has loved and lost, whereas he has just lost. 121 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:38,000 And the beast, the tragic event was that being afraid, being scared of life, living in fear, 122 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:47,680 and most importantly, being afraid of love, meant that they were never together, and that 123 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:52,480 the fear itself kept him from experiencing life. 124 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:57,080 And then I believe he dramatically dies on her grave, but that's implied. 125 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,520 Yeah, kind of throws himself down or something. 126 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:06,040 But yeah, I think it's for such a short novella, there's so much like, it's like you say, like 127 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:11,600 absolutely packed full of, of metaphor and allegory that you can, you feel the kind of 128 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,120 hugeness of their life in such a short amount of time. 129 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:22,160 I found it really frustrating to experience that character in a way, because I think when 130 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:28,040 she's admitting to him what the beast is, or that it's passed in a way, I was like, 131 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,320 oh, it's like, I wish he could just see what she's trying to tell him and he misses it, 132 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,680 which I mean, is the point. 133 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:42,440 But I think it's such a relevant and human story to tell, I guess. 134 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:50,720 It's very interesting in terms of fate as well, because you, you can believe in something 135 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:56,240 happening and being so dead set on it that it just completely passes you by. 136 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,240 Not nice. 137 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,240 You do. 138 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:11,720 Yeah, but it's, despite its kind of largeness, it is quite inherently quite a simple story, 139 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,000 I think you could say. 140 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:19,200 Not like simple in theme, but simple in telling, with being quite short. 141 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,720 How do you think that translates into the film, the kind of like grand, huge evolving 142 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,200 blob of the beast, the movie? 143 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,160 How do you think the adaptation works? 144 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,000 Well, how does Bonnello take that and run with it? 145 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,200 I think that the short story is almost like an Aesop's fable. 146 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:47,680 It kind of teaches you a lesson of not letting fear of the thing keep you from experiencing 147 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:48,680 it. 148 00:13:48,680 --> 00:14:00,000 But Bonnello, he really takes that kernel of love and fear and creates a film that kind 149 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:08,000 of sees love and fear in this death wrestle, basically. 150 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:22,080 So it has three kind of simultaneous versions of itself, and it's centered around this couple 151 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,600 from the short story. 152 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,280 They're called Louis and Gabrielle. 153 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:39,960 And in the first representation of this theme, it's set to 1910, and it's very faithful to 154 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:40,960 the story. 155 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:47,520 You kind of get to experience the essence of the short story, and it's almost lifted 156 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:48,520 line by line. 157 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:57,680 But then he asks, how is this exploration of love and fear relevant through different 158 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,200 points in time? 159 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,740 He also chooses to explore genre here. 160 00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:16,480 So he sets Louis and Gabrielle up as this couple that are destined to meet through the 161 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:27,400 ages basically once in 1910, once in 2014, and once in 2044. 162 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:38,200 And in each iteration of their doomed love story, you see the same signs, and you see 163 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,600 a repetition of warnings. 164 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:53,800 And the very last iteration that the film is structurally based around is a science 165 00:15:53,800 --> 00:16:03,360 fiction element where Gabrielle is living in 2044. 166 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:11,240 Unemployment is at 67% because of artificial intelligence, and human emotion is considered 167 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,920 superfluous now. 168 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:20,040 And she agrees to go through a process of purification. 169 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:29,040 And what is meant by that is that she gets to experience her past lives in order to understand 170 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:35,480 her trauma and then become free of it in a way. 171 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:42,520 But what is freedom if it's at the cost of not being who you are, essentially, is the 172 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,680 question. 173 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:51,460 So Louis and Gabrielle are in this love, fear, death dance across time. 174 00:16:51,460 --> 00:17:00,640 And because it visits their story in different contexts, in a way, it makes the love story 175 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,360 more epic. 176 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:16,960 But in a way, it tries to explore this theme in an even more modern, virtual, digital, 177 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:26,760 different way than the book, because the book is saying love is possible, but you have to 178 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:27,760 get it. 179 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:28,760 You have to be open to it. 180 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,760 Whereas the film seems to ask in the end, is love even possible? 181 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,200 Is connection even possible, even if you find the right person? 182 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,200 Yeah. 183 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:48,400 The emotion and the importance or not importance of emotion and connection is the driving thing 184 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:49,400 between all the three things. 185 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:54,680 But I thought maybe we can take it chunk by chunk through the three stories and talk about 186 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:01,360 how the story is kind of told in these three parts. 187 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:16,200 I think firstly, the melodrama, which is closer to the James, as I said, that tries to introduce 188 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:26,360 the audience to the question of what is the beast. 189 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:34,560 And in order for viewers to not be locked in to the melodrama or the period piece, he 190 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,840 starts right before that with this green screen scene. 191 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:47,640 And that means that you know immediately the green screen scene refers to the part of the 192 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,440 movie that's set in 2014. 193 00:18:52,440 --> 00:19:04,760 And Gabrielle is made to stab this beast that is in the green screen room. 194 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,760 It's going to be added in post. 195 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:15,820 But because of that stark green screen that everyone associates with the virtual world, 196 00:19:15,820 --> 00:19:19,200 you know that something is weird here. 197 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:26,400 And that intro sequence, the title sequence ends with a scream. 198 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,640 And then you go back to 1910. 199 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:37,520 So I think he has deliberately said the reason why I did that was that people don't get comfortable 200 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,840 and expect a period piece. 201 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,360 They know that it's going to get twisty. 202 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,240 They know that it's going to hop through time. 203 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:51,760 And then the period piece story is very beautiful, a bit counterfactual. 204 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,520 Paris floods in it, for instance. 205 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,280 But that's where they build up this love story between. 206 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:00,280 Really strongly. 207 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,920 Yes, because everything that happens afterwards is going to make you doubt this love. 208 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:13,720 But then you're going to feel, no, guys, there is a kernel of love in here. 209 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:20,120 And then the next is quite a departure from that. 210 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,480 Bonnello has switched the roles. 211 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:38,240 And while in the 1910 version, it is the woman that is afraid of the beast and it's the man 212 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,160 that decides to be her watcher. 213 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:47,720 But the gender is swapped around in the next section and he is afraid of love and she tries 214 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,680 to comfort him. 215 00:20:49,680 --> 00:21:01,600 And he has this bizarre kind of incel character where Bonnello tries to ask, here is obviously 216 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,880 someone with very dark thoughts, violent thoughts, and he acts on them. 217 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,280 But what is driving the human beneath? 218 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,600 And then it's that fear of love again. 219 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:15,600 Yeah. 220 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:23,640 I was reading an article where he said that he thinks that all incels have this fear and 221 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,560 that they're just too afraid to admit to themselves that they have this fear of love and of connection. 222 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,080 So it was really interesting way to frame an incel storyline. 223 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,800 It also gave us such a fantastic character in Lewis Lewinsky. 224 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:48,760 It really is, and I think it's very bold to change it so drastically. 225 00:21:48,760 --> 00:22:00,200 Yet you have the kind of grounding to understand the motivation beneath and the fact that he's 226 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:01,840 trying to do something with it. 227 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,800 He's not trying to be sensationalist. 228 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:18,480 And where the male character was the comfort in the former iteration here, you have Gabriel 229 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:27,800 trying to reach out to this disturbed man, trying to tell him that another way is possible. 230 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:37,320 And then all these storylines converge in the real time storyline, which is the memory 231 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,160 purification process of 2044. 232 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,020 And this is kind of the last chance. 233 00:22:45,020 --> 00:22:54,820 This is the last chance of these two people finding each other because Gabriel has, she 234 00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:59,660 has seen their past lives. 235 00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:06,040 She knows there is a connection to this person and she desperately searches for him knowing 236 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,040 all this. 237 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,040 Yeah. 238 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:14,160 Because surely he's experienced the same past life regression kind of journey. 239 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:19,880 Or at least my interpretation is that he also understands that there is a connection between 240 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,680 them as well. 241 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,880 Not when they first meet. 242 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:34,920 And that is kind of the, and I urge people who haven't seen it to see it now before you 243 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,280 hear this. 244 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:51,280 But this is the part where he kind of proposes that due to the way our lives have changed 245 00:23:51,280 --> 00:24:00,360 so radically, connection becomes impossible because when they go through the process of 246 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:08,960 purification, they can become aware of this incredible soulmate-like connection, but he 247 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,820 ends up becoming purified. 248 00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:17,600 She doesn't, so she knows what they have and he can't emotionally feel it. 249 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:18,600 No. 250 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,520 I think he gave it up. 251 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:22,880 Yeah. 252 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,480 I think, I don't know if I'm making too many kind of like board strokes in terms of connection, 253 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,760 but it really made me think, made me think two things. 254 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:38,440 Like the comment on like how important emotion is and that it can seem superfluous in a lot 255 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:49,740 of contexts and like it kind of spoke to me in a commentary on the emotional woman kind 256 00:24:49,740 --> 00:24:54,600 of trope or not even a trope because it's like a real life thing people say. 257 00:24:54,600 --> 00:25:03,280 But similarly, I was also thinking it can kind of be a commentary on emotion being kind 258 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:11,280 of like a detriment that there can be something as simple as like a bad feeling or like there's 259 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,840 examples of good emotions and bad emotions and not feeling the bad ones is good. 260 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,840 And I guess that's kind of what the film suggests and kind of like in a real life context, I 261 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:28,300 kind of see that as like a mental health kind of treatment commentary that you can kind 262 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:32,560 of, you can give up the bad, but you have to give up the good too. 263 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,040 You know, you can choose not to love because you don't want the bad thing to happen, but 264 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,160 that ultimately means that you will never love. 265 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,600 Absolutely. 266 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,240 And what does it mean to be human? 267 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:52,240 Fundamentally, if you could eradicate the extremes of feelings that are negative, you 268 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,560 would never get the extremes of feeling that are positive. 269 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:05,080 And in the moment where she realizes this, her scream is so intense. 270 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,320 And I think this is the brilliance of the movie. 271 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,640 That's a very abstract theme, right? 272 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:20,760 And in this lynchian way, they really kind of pierce through to the viewer and just suggest 273 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:34,200 this quite complex theme on how do we as humans value emotion and perhaps we're not looking 274 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,040 at it in the right way. 275 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,040 Yeah. 276 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,040 Oh, yeah. 277 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:45,720 I guess it's something I've been really thinking about in the film since I saw the film. 278 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:53,720 Like, yeah, like just daring to love, daring to be vulnerable is something so scary, but 279 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,920 ultimately can have like a very fortunate payoff. 280 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,920 But that you do have to sacrifice a lot and do have to kind of accept the fact that there 281 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,960 can be something bad coming to it, which I guess is just a thing of living in fear and 282 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,680 never truly accepting your current situation out of fear. 283 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,080 It's just I know it was kind of like a glaring spotlight on myself almost when I was watching 284 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,080 the film. 285 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,440 It's like I feel like I really get I feel like also reading the short story as well 286 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,520 as like, how how much do I value my own emotion? 287 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:37,240 It kind of made me think like I'm very lucky to feel humans are very lucky to get to feel 288 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,080 at the extent that they do. 289 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,920 They are and there's this really great scene where you feel like this is kind of epitomized 290 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:54,240 by Bernalov because Gabrielle has to act out a scene on green screen. 291 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,560 This is in the middle section of the movie and she's asked, can you be scared of something 292 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,200 that's not there? 293 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,960 And you just think, yeah, you you really can, can't you? 294 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:19,920 And I think also Per in the film club reviewed this as the work of art in the age of digital 295 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:27,260 production, referencing the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction, of course. 296 00:28:27,260 --> 00:28:35,480 But I just also think like love in the age of digital reproduction in a way. 297 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:41,920 And I think that is really interesting when it comes to the form of the movie and this 298 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:54,200 kind of topic of censoring emotion, because it's a story that retells itself three times 299 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,120 in the course of the movie. 300 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:10,400 And in that way, it is kind of questioning the very existence of this as a tangible topic. 301 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:27,360 Like can love ever be original or is it forced now to be an imitation of itself? 302 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:38,920 So I think he said in an interview that this is a film that doesn't end when it's finished. 303 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:45,440 This is a film that you have to think about and kind of interact with too. 304 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:53,200 And I think that's one of the reasons why it can encourage a reflection, because you're 305 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,080 meant to use it in that way. 306 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,520 Yeah, well, it did its job for me, definitely. 307 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Just in the view of like, sometimes you think it could be so much simpler to live without 308 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,800 anything. 309 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:18,080 So you can minimize your life so much in the way that the character in the short story, 310 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,920 he kind of minimizes his life with having his obsession with the bad thing that can 311 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,080 happen. 312 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:30,640 But without extremity of feeling, then your life and emotional life has no perspective. 313 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,560 There's no dynamic in your life, I guess. 314 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:43,640 You can't make any real tangible connection with anything if you have no perspective. 315 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:50,560 Despite the rattle-dattle of a huge period set piece, it all kind of collapses into nothing 316 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:57,360 in the end when they can't get that connection. 317 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:05,160 Which is a very like, that's very like, a real visceral imagery of it literally burning 318 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,560 down and collapsing around them. 319 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:14,560 It's like, I think that was a really perfect kind of way to visualize the feeling of the 320 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:20,040 destruction of realizing that you can't love someone, I guess. 321 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,000 If I could be so bold to say. 322 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,400 Of course. 323 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:30,120 No, it's very, very harrowing. 324 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:39,280 But I think it's definitely worth exploring further, because this is a very rich and dense 325 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,800 film, but the theme we're talking about is very universal. 326 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,800 Absolutely. 327 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:59,320 It kind of touched on it, the narrative that is the core narrative of the 2040 life that 328 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:08,280 she is living, but kind of how the digital world kind of connects us and unconnects us 329 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,280 in a way. 330 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,920 Not to ask a very vague question, but- 331 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,640 I love vague questions. 332 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:25,280 How connection works in the context of the film in our existence now and in the future 333 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:34,440 with how social media has evolved and how AI, scary not scary, is evolving too. 334 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:41,400 Interestingly, he chose to strip everything down. 335 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:48,320 You can go for an apocalyptic vision of the future, or you can go for really a number 336 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,080 of different visions of the future. 337 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,760 But he decides to just take away the superfluous. 338 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,560 He takes away cars. 339 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,760 He takes away other people, really. 340 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:09,420 And he makes this vision of Paris that is very clean, kind of beautiful, but the human 341 00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:15,280 noise is very much gone. 342 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:23,040 And I don't think that we are quite there yet, but I do think that in the way that it 343 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:38,800 corresponds to our lived reality now, I think that you can kind of imagine connection to 344 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,200 other people based on non-reality. 345 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:53,920 You can feel like you know someone through social media or something like that. 346 00:33:53,920 --> 00:34:02,920 And it's almost like she's on a quest to see if she actually can know another person in 347 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,240 this sterile environment. 348 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,920 She's desperate to. 349 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:14,400 And she's seeking to connect with anyone. 350 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:23,440 It seems like the depth of this, but when she's meeting these three women in the bar 351 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:32,840 in the 2014 story and in the 204042 and they reject her, she's seeming to me to grasp me 352 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,840 for connection in any way. 353 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:42,120 Like and her kind of existence herself is kind of a rejection of the world that's expected 354 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,960 of her in any regard. 355 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:53,640 Now her choice to feel her emotions is a rejection of what's expected of her and how everyone 356 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,320 else kind of lives their life, I guess. 357 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,200 And she's hunting for it. 358 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,760 Can people be real? 359 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:03,760 Yeah. 360 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:12,920 And she is, it's not only, it doesn't only extend to love because the idea here is that 361 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:20,320 most human labor has been replaced. 362 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,560 And she says, I want my work to have meaning. 363 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,220 I don't think that's so far away from us today, really. 364 00:35:28,220 --> 00:35:31,240 To be removed from work. 365 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:40,880 I don't want to drag marks into this, but this is kind of the whole idea of alienation. 366 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:47,200 If you don't feel a connection and an understanding of why you're doing what you're doing and 367 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:55,280 that it is connected to you in some way, it's connected to what you can do. 368 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:06,920 This example is in a needle factory, if your job is to kind of place the top of the needle 369 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:13,940 on the needle and that's the only thing you're doing, that is totally different from making 370 00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:22,120 a chair and saying, I made this, this has come from my hands and I'm proud of it. 371 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:31,040 And I think that's a totally legitimate question to ask. 372 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:40,280 What is the future of our feeling of connection with not only people, very importantly people, 373 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:46,560 but the world, how we can live, how we can work. 374 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:54,720 So yeah, it's almost like he has taken every big universal theme and just crammed it into 375 00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,720 this visually stunning melodrama slasher sci-fi. 376 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,480 And I'm amazed. 377 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:11,480 It was my favorite film of the year, even though I didn't watch it until this year. 378 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:18,040 And I think as long as you're along for the ride, we probably made it sound very, very 379 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:24,920 dense, but it's also an epic love story that spans through the ages. 380 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,360 It's also that. 381 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,960 So it has a lot of different things for a lot of different people. 382 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:30,960 Yeah, absolutely. 383 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,600 I think anyone can find anything. 384 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:39,120 And it's so relatable in so many of its themes, like you said, like it encompasses a lot of 385 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,240 different things. 386 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,600 It's got me thinking a lot about, yeah, I feel like I've kind of made myself kind of 387 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:53,720 the spokesperson of not being on social media since I left social media like a month ago. 388 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:58,160 But even like, even my observation would kind of, so I feel like it was kind of like kismet 389 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,000 a little bit in seeing this film because I was like, hey, that's like what I've been 390 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,240 thinking about lately. 391 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:10,960 Just seeing like connection and how people are in the world, it kind of frightens me 392 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:18,840 how little people look at the world, I guess, and look at each other and have connection. 393 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:25,720 And I recently started working retail too, in terms of human connection. 394 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:34,360 It's like, if a lot of the people who you serve, I think if you ask them to describe 395 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,920 what I looked like when they walked out the store 10 seconds later, they won't be able 396 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,720 to even have remembered that there was a person standing in front of them. 397 00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:50,080 I just think there's kind of like, I don't know what's the word, kind of automized process 398 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,080 of everything. 399 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:57,280 And everyone's just sort of like cruising along in this very kind of like blissfully 400 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:03,280 unaware of the real life that happens around them. 401 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:10,600 Kind of feel like that's kind of, that is a tragedy in a way, in the same way like we're 402 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:16,000 like missing out on each other and connection and not being on your phone. 403 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,560 And I don't know, it's just something I've been really kind of like paying attention 404 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,440 to lately, just seeing how people interact with each other. 405 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,520 And yeah, it's very strange. 406 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:32,400 Like not having left that, I feel very connected to my own life, but also incredibly unconnected 407 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,360 to everyone else around me. 408 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,520 It's very strange as someone used to be like obsessed with being online. 409 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:46,320 That just makes me think of my main point that I like to hammer home about science fiction, 410 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,000 which is that it's not about the future, it's about us. 411 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,000 Yeah. 412 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:53,000 Yeah. 413 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,840 And we're recently on the, well, a couple episodes ago, I was talking about kind of 414 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:04,160 climate fiction and dystopian future stuff, but it's actually like, it's like Margaret 415 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:10,280 Atwood, she claims that everything that she writes about in her books have happened already 416 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,800 or kind of happened in some shape or form. 417 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:18,600 And yeah, I think that's a lot of, everything in the beast is kind of occurring in some 418 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,080 way, shape or form. 419 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:29,200 And he did state his inspiration from David Lynch. 420 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,160 And I think that is very, very evident. 421 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:41,120 And I'm glad he said it because I thought the final part of the movie is very Twin Peaks 422 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,520 revival, very unreal. 423 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:53,200 And I think I kind of appreciate more and more films that kind of present you with an 424 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,440 environment or a feeling or an alienation. 425 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:04,320 And they don't try to tell you exactly what it is and exactly what it's doing, it is kind 426 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,000 of presenting it to you as something you can feel. 427 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:22,400 And I think that is very, very evident, but it's also kind of allows him to, in the same 428 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:30,480 way that Lynch does, I just watched Eraserhead actually for the first time and I was amazed 429 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,360 at what he was doing so early in his career. 430 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,880 Totally bizarre. 431 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:46,640 But you can kind of create, if you're a talented filmmaker, you can create human feelings of 432 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:54,160 alienation, of lack of connection and present it through a story. 433 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,800 I mean, that's why we love the movies. 434 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:06,600 It's like looking in a mirror, not liking what you see and then going home and thinking 435 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,280 about it. 436 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,320 And ending it with a piercing scream. 437 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,320 Yes. 438 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,320 And a frightening realization. 439 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:23,560 Yeah, it's like that moment I feel like, not that I've experienced that exact thing, but 440 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:28,400 like her, I say that kind of the way that she lives her life is a rejection, but that's 441 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,280 like a moment where she's like actively for me, like kind of rejecting like, I don't want 442 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:38,560 this to be happening right now, which I feel I can relate to. 443 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:47,160 But I think that's like Leia Sadoo is just like amazing in this film. 444 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,320 It goes without saying because she's kind of like the focal point of the movie and George 445 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:56,320 McKay is obviously great too, but she just, I don't know. 446 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,480 I don't know if that's like a good comment that you kind of like forget that this is 447 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,280 a movie and she's acting in it. 448 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,440 Like it was unbelievably and unbelievably real performance from her. 449 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,840 It was incredible. 450 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:17,200 They're both carrying the film extremely well for a story that is so bizarre, literally 451 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,420 unreal and changing all the time. 452 00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:27,320 The fact that they managed to retain us through that is an immense display of power. 453 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:32,760 Just circling back to what you said about the scream, I think it's absolutely essential 454 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,920 because for people who have seen the film or have heard us describe it just now, it 455 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,200 just piles on and on all these kind of open questions and ideas. 456 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:52,480 And then towards that end, it's almost like her scream just pierces through all that noise 457 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,520 and conveys to you this primal emotion. 458 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:02,880 And you're kind of just shaken a bit out of your seat. 459 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:08,280 So in a way it is saying connection is not possible. 460 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,520 That's why she's screaming. 461 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:16,000 But then that scream kind of reawakens the possibility. 462 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:24,600 She is still feeling an emotion intense enough to cut through to us in this very, very powerful 463 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,560 way. 464 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:34,800 Maybe the last question just simply can be, what is the beast for you? 465 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:35,800 For me? 466 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:46,840 Okay, so I wrote down what Bonello said quite literally the beast was in his interpretation. 467 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:58,600 I'm not gonna copy his answer, but let's see here. 468 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:05,640 Yeah, he says the beast is the fear of love. 469 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,920 And maybe I've said that already. 470 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:20,640 But I think that can be applied in so many different ways. 471 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:28,560 And I think I interpreted quite literally for myself, which is a lot of the time, we're 472 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:33,600 scared to do something because we don't want to shake things up. 473 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:40,920 And we don't want to rock the boat, or we feel like we have a comfortable life, or it's 474 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,880 easier to continue on a straight line. 475 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:52,560 But then when I look back on the choices I made that were a bit weird and a bit off the 476 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,920 timeline, I never really regretted them. 477 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:07,440 And I think that's the reminder for me, fundamentally, do the scary thing. 478 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:14,840 And usually, the scary thing is worth it. 479 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:15,840 Good. 480 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,840 That's a good interpretation, not too far from my own. 481 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:29,800 I just think it's a fear of living just for the same reason, whether it's someone saying 482 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,800 no or failing or the possibility of feeling bad. 483 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,920 Usually the big scaries are worth it in the end. 484 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,960 It's always better to feel. 485 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:51,880 And I think that is how Henry James concludes it quite literally, because he says, I would 486 00:46:51,880 --> 00:47:04,560 rather be ravaged, hanged than not living at all. 487 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,240 On that high note, thank you very much for doing this. 488 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:08,240 This was really nice. 489 00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:09,240 It was. 490 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:10,240 Thank you so much for having me. 491 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:16,680 Thank you very much again, Hanna, for joining. 492 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,360 It was a really great conversation. 493 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,200 And what a film. 494 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,200 What a film. 495 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:29,080 That's probably, if I go back, probably the best film of 2023 that I saw. 496 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:34,160 And it's filmally cemented in the pantheon of films that I esteem as being very, very 497 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,160 good. 498 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,280 I loved the film. 499 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:37,280 It was incredible. 500 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,520 And I'm very thankful for the film club to give the opportunity to see a film like this. 501 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:43,520 So very cool. 502 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:44,520 Yeah. 503 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,600 Thank you very much for listening. 504 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,160 More episodes, obviously, to come in the future. 505 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,160 Thank you. 506 00:47:53,160 --> 00:48:07,520 Goodbye.