[00:00:01.160] - Sunyi Hi, I'm Sunyi Dean. [00:00:03.870] - Scott And I'm Scott Drakeford. [00:00:06.110] - Sunyi And this is the Publishing Rodeo podcast. In 2022, we both launched debut novels in the same genre with the same publisher in the same year. But despite having very similar starts, our books and subsequently each of our careers went in very different directions. [00:00:22.090] - Scott That pattern repeats itself throughout the industry over and over. Why do some books succeed while others seem to be dead on arrival? [00:00:30.820] - Sunyi In this podcast, we aim to answer those questions and many more, along with how to build and maintain an author career. [00:00:38.610] - Scott Everyone signing a contract deserves to know what they're really signing up for. In an industry that loves its secrets, we'll be sharing real details from real people. We'll cover the gamut of life as a Big Five published author, from agents to publishing contracts, finances, and and more. [00:00:58.230] - Sunyi Every time I think I should like, ask you how you've been, Scott, because that's what people do in podcasts. But I always do that at the start before we're recording. Nonetheless, for the audience, how've you been, Scott? [00:01:15.100] - Donyae Okay. [00:01:15.580] - Scott You know what's funny about that is I don't listen to podcasts. [00:01:21.480] - Sunyi You don't listen to this podcast, bitch. [00:01:23.420] - Donyae I don't. I don't. [00:01:27.610] - Scott I mean, I have listened— well, back when we started, I listened to a few of the episodes and, you know, it's kind of weird hearing your own voice, but also like, I don't know. Anyway, I don't listen to most of our own episodes, but I don't listen to podcasts generally. But anyway, yeah, been fine. How are you, Sunny? [00:01:53.870] - Sunyi I'm signing thousands of pages and trying to finish a novel by the end of January. Oh, my dog is here. What is it, Glenn? Sorry, my dog has come to be a needy little so-and-so. Hello, Glenn. And I've taken on a mentee. She's an ex-Mormon. She lives in Utah. You got a lot of coffee. No way. [00:02:17.110] - Scott Really? [00:02:17.450] - Sunyi Another fantasy writer who lives— yeah. Yeah, she writes really like violent lesbian cage fighting. Oh, it's, oh, it's, it's, it's so much fun. It was like right up my street. Even though, even though it's got loads of romance in it, I was like, yeah, I'm here for these, these violent women. So basically I'm incredibly fucking busy as always. More so feeling the pressure. But today we have like a really spicy topic because Why not? And I've actually asked, is it Donyae Coles? Am I saying it? Because we're like internet friends, so I've never had to say your name. [00:02:54.530] - Donyae You said it correctly. Good job. [00:02:57.180] - Sunyi Thank you. I'm very proud. And I guess I'll go. I'd actually written notes for this episode because my brain was just so discombobulated on this. And I thought, if I don't write notes, I'll end up just like ranting about threads. But yeah, so I kind of got to know Danya, I think through Facebook and social media, weirdly. And I think she just always stood out to me as like being this really smart lady who had a, has a great blog saying lots of things that I resonate with about like leaving your kind of slightly deadbeat ex-husbands and trying to put your life back together. And also more recently we'd had some conversations about certain topics. And this— I should let you introduce yourself first, Donia. I've been really rude. Sorry. You should introduce yourself and tell us about yourself first, and then we'll get into all of the trad nonsense. [00:03:56.840] - Donyae You're just excited. So my name is Donyae Coles. I am the author of a gothic horror novel called Midnight Rooms. It's available everywhere fine books are sold, and not so fine books. I also have a number of short stories, etc., etc. I am primarily a horror novel— or horror author, that's what I'm known for, but I do write across genres. I have another book coming out this upcoming summer, so yeah, that's me. [00:04:35.450] - Sunyi You say horror the way I do. And when I say it like that, all the Brits start giggling because in their accent it sounds like whore. [00:04:42.220] - Donyae Yeah, my phone thinks that's what I'm saying a lot. [00:04:47.860] - Sunyi I was on a stage with Stu Turreton at MCM, and I kept having to use that word. And at one point I said, look, I'm really sorry. I know in my accent to British people it sounds a bit rude. And Stu said, say that again. I said whore. And he's like, yep, that sounds rude. Carry on. [00:05:01.660] - Donyae Yeah, I think it's because I have a little bit of a speech impediment. That's mostly resolved from childhood. And I think that's what it is because there's those two Rs in there. And so I think that's what— I think that's why I say it that way. [00:05:16.280] - Sunyi Yeah, sorry. I just want to very briefly say that I think I talked last episode about why we moved away from doing guests. And I think part of that is because the longer we started, we kept the podcast going, the fussier I became about the people we invited. Like, lots of people want to come on and tell their stories. And that's really cool and I respect that. But I also didn't want us to become just an author interview. That what I wanted was to have like very specific nuanced discussions. And that requires a degree of trust with the people you're talking to and like a degree of awareness from all sides. Because we definitely have had some people who you're kind of scared to say no to almost. And anyway, it just, I think that was actually part of the reason why I stepped back for a long time. That and we actually had books to write, which I know, shocker to everyone, we do write sometimes. But yeah, so I mean, basically, I've had some conversation with Donnie. I've seen her active online. I trust her to have nuance in these discussions, and I find her perspective interesting. [00:06:29.070] - Sunyi And I promise it won't just be me talking this whole time. But there are 3 things I want to talk about, and the first 2 are linked. And they're not probably going to go down very well with a subset of listeners. But those two topics are trad hostility and the explosion of publishing misinformation. And Threads— so ever since the destruction of Twitter, people have kind of moved across Instagram, Threads, Blue Sky, and it's kind of everywhere. It's on Facebook as well, but particularly on Threads, which has so far been like the most successful, most engaged of those platforms. It is massively trad-hostile. And I don't know if indies and aspiring authors are aware of that, but it is definitely a thing that trad authors are aware of and that we talk about with varying degrees of openness, at least among ourselves. And it's not because— it's not because other types of authors are worse. It's just like, it's to do with a number quantity. Like, I've been in Facebook groups that have, say, 140,000 writers And out of those, maybe 30 will be trad, right? So like the percentage of people who are dicks is the same regardless of what path you're on, but just the sheer fucking number. [00:07:40.700] - Sunyi Um, and there's something about these algorithms that is just amplifying the vitriol, the bitterness, and the misinformation that, yeah. So I, I'd gotten involved in threads because even though it is known to be volatile and full of drama, that's where the engagement is. And I need the engagement and the run-up to to the launch of this book. [00:08:02.520] - Donyae Oh my God, same. [00:08:04.450] - Sunyi Yeah, yeah. And I just, I feel like I'm stuck in this endless battle of endless misinformation and hostility, and I feel like I have to say something because, because there's just so much of it going around. Um, and I think maybe a place to start is I was thinking about how there was an interaction you had a, a a few weeks ago, I guess, where people were talking about the lack of diversity in trad. And you'd kind of responded to that with a quote tweet of like, hey, here's some Black trad authors who are doing cool things in these spaces. And someone else jumped onto that and was like, a well-meaning, kind of left-leaning white guy. And he was basically saying, oh no, trad isn't diverse, so don't buy any of their books, go buy indie. [00:08:52.570] - Donyae Oh, I know what that was. Yeah. Like there was somebody, they were talking about, they were seeing, it was a thread and they were talking about how they didn't buy traditionally published books because there was no diversity. And I was like, well, like, so buy the traditionally published books that have the kind of stuff you're looking for. Like, you're just buying the wrong books. Like, we out here, right? It's like, we're doing this thing. But like, part of the issue with the conversation that was happening was that they were sort of ignoring the fact that like, if you are not going to buy our books, because we are being published, obviously, I'm a traditionally published Black woman, you can't see me out there listeners, I am a Black woman. You know, so we're obviously getting published, we're getting distribution, we're getting the marketing push, but if you do not buy our books, if you choose for whatever reasons that you're not gonna support any trad published authors, and you don't buy our books, we will not continue to be published because this is still a business. So they will not put our books out. They will not give us the marketing push. [00:10:09.280] - Donyae So if you want to see more diversity in the trad spaces, you have to support the diversity that is there. And that person who responded, they kind of came up and they were like, well, there's these great indie authors. I actually don't even use the term indie. I use self-published in the, in this case because Indie publishers are a thing, but they're traditional publishers. They work the same way the Big Five does. So this person came in and they were like, you know, support self-published authors because they're doing all of these things and completely missed the point of what I'm saying, that we are still in this space, it's still trying. And I think that that happens a lot because especially, you know, when you're dealing with Black people writing, a lot of us do not go the traditional route because we sort of self-select out. We believe that we're not going to get picked up, we're not going to get the push, we're not going to be treated right when we get there, and there's lots of horror stories about that. So we tend to lean more towards the self-publishing space. And so when you say that you're not going to support traditional publishing, you come in well-meaning to be like, indie authors are doing all of these things. [00:11:30.740] - Donyae You are really giving us less of a chance when we are in traditional publishing and less of a chance to kind of make sure that— or to say like, hey, look, we sell books too. People want to read what we— what we're making. There's more than just The Reformatory out there in our spaces, right? That's the big— that's the big horror novel that's from a Black person right now. [00:11:54.490] - Sunyi And I think for me, the heart of it, that one of the things I really struggle with, with the trad hostility, because I think where I was coming into this issue is that I'm aware that Scott and I can be really negative sometimes about trad publishing. But there's this line between industry transparency and contributing to an atmosphere of negativity and hostility. And I don't know if we always get it right. I don't know how we walk it, but we need to have space to be able to discuss what's wrong in the industry without having everyone jump on it and go, Oh, right. Yeah, it's all a complete wash. What I struggle with is when I feel like the discourse around trad shifts to we don't want any authors to succeed and it can't be saved and shouldn't be saved and you should all be leaving. And I think that that is part of what drives me kind of crazy about it. [00:12:44.110] - Donyae I know, like, I know what you're talking about because like I have— can I just extrapolate on my thoughts? Scott's like, yeah, do it. We can be dissatisfied with something. Actually, I was dissatisfied with something that I was going through. I'm not going to get into the details of it, but I was dissatisfied and I was venting to a fellow author who's a friend of mine, dear friend of mine, but they are not traditionally published. And so they were looking at what I was seeing as like an industry-level problem, an overall problem with like the business I was dealing with. And I was like, No, this is me personally having an issue. This is not something to be taken as a commentary on publishing. And I think that happens a lot where, because we deserve space to talk about the things we're dissatisfied in. This is our job. And like any job, you're gonna have stuff that you're upset about. You're gonna have coworkers that are pissing you off. You're going to have moments where you're having a disagreement about the vision with the people you're working with. And just like any other job, we want to vent about that. [00:13:56.840] - Donyae And I think that when we do that, people who are outside of the job, right, they see that as a remark on the job as a whole. [00:14:08.380] - Sunyi Yeah. [00:14:08.640] - Donyae So like me being upset with a previous editor and talking about how I'm upset about what happened in that situation. They take that as this is all traditional publishing, when really it's like, no, that person was an asshole. That person was a problem. They're gone now and it's okay. Like, for example, please don't come after me, editor. [00:14:34.430] - Sunyi Scott, I know that your experience with publishing has not been great. Obviously, you're not worked out the way you wanted, but you're back on submission again and you're still trying to get back into it. [00:14:45.090] - Scott Yeah. I'm still, even with a book on sub that I think has strong potential, should I have to self-publish, I'm still looking for a trad deal first. So yeah, my, my thoughts on this are mostly that I'm trying to say this in a way that makes sense to not just me. We come into trad you know, all of us who are trying to be successful trad authors, and we come in and we want a contract with a trad publisher to mean that we made it, right? And we want that to be a winning lottery ticket and not just entrance into the next round of The Hunger Games. And it seems like it used to be more of that, right? It used to mean that you had a chance, a real chance at success if you were published by especially one of the bigger publishers, than it does now. But it's hard because you do sign so much over to them. You sign up to be on their timetable, you sign up to be on their plan, and, and you don't have a lot of visibility. All these things we've gone into, right? Like, you just don't have control over your own destiny anymore. [00:16:02.630] - Scott But at the same time, the criticism has to be tempered by the fact that we're signing up for this because we're hoping for them to make us successful in a way that we are not doing for ourselves, right, or that we hope to not have to do for ourselves. So I mean, on the one hand, the scale associated with traditional publishing is absolutely critical in every aspect, from unit economics of producing the books to marketing and distributing and selling the books. The scale and the value of each relationship built, etc., matters on the trad side. But at the same time, if you're not, especially in today's trad publishing marketplace, if you are not one of those chosen few authors who is kind of set up for success, it is extremely frustrating. There's a lot of wasted time, a lot of wasted money, and a lot of crushed dreams. So your point, Donyae, is perfect. It's almost like the only people who are going to understand the nuance of what we're trying to say are those who have seen it either firsthand or very closely. And interpreting what we're trying to say generally on this podcast, anytime we are negative, should not be construed as a misconstrued as an indictment of publishing as a whole, because there are a lot of things that make sense about trad publishing, um, and it does work for some people. [00:17:41.810] - Scott We just wish it would work for more people, right? [00:17:44.800] - Donyae Exactly. [00:17:45.450] - Sunyi It remains— for me, I still think it remains the biggest leveller in terms— because I think from probably about 2012, self-publishing really became increasingly pay-to-play. I, I really feel that. I think the evidence bears out. I think if you try and get to it now, it is enormously difficult, um, without a degree of resources. There are always exceptions to that, but definitely when I was first getting into the industry, there was no way I had the funds, uh, and in that sense, like, I, I get really frustrated with people who want to make trad publishing less accessible And they want it to work less well and they just want it to not work and just to not be an option. And not because that's sensible, it's not. It would just give Amazon loads of power. It would destroy picture books and literary fiction and standalones and cross-genre. But because those things happening are kind of like a form of self-validation for them. And I just, I really struggle with those conversations. [00:18:47.070] - Donyae I think the editing— editors not editing discourse wild. As a person who's currently in edits, I'm like, really? Then what am I doing this for? [00:18:59.860] - Sunyi What are you talking about? [00:19:01.850] - Donyae But I mean, yeah. And I think for me, one of the things, like me personally, one of the things that I see a lot and I don't really give voice because like you were saying to me, you know, it is pay to play and I don't know why people try to pretend like it's not. Like, sure, it is free to upload your book to Amazon or Barnes Noble— I don't know what Barnes Noble— Kobo, um, or whatever platform, or throw it on a web— like, all of those things are 100% free. But editing isn't free, your cover isn't free, um, the marketing stuff that you now have to do on your own isn't free. And quite honestly, if I had to self-publish any of my work, one, it wouldn't have done well in the self-publishing sense, and 2, I couldn't afford it. You know, Soon-Yi knows what I was going through. She read my blog. But, you know, like, I was in a bad marriage and I was living in poverty and there was absolutely no way that I would have been able to afford, even as a person who could have done a lot of the stuff myself, I could have I'm an artist, I could have made my own cover. [00:20:17.710] - Donyae In fact, people do still think that I did do my cover. I didn't. I could have edited it myself pretty well. I could have done those things, but I could not have afforded to market that book the way it would have needed to be marketed. There is a reality in which a traditional publishing track is the only way some people can be published. Because they simply do not have the funds, the wealth, the time needed to go on a self-publishing route. [00:20:51.050] - Sunyi And also, all the smart people are doing hybrid. Like, it's good to have both. I mean, if you come into trad and you've got some self-pub to fall back on and you've got some, like, industry distribution to get your name out there, that, that is, like, the best place to be for a lot of people anyway. Um, if I could write at all any faster than I I do, I would consider it, option clauses notwithstanding. [00:21:15.580] - Donyae Reason that I could see going hybrid, right, is like, yes, I think one, I think self-publishing works best if you're writing romance. Like that if you are coming from absolutely nothing, ground floor, you don't have any sort of name for yourself, no one knows who you are, romance is probably like the easiest entry. And that's not like a dig against romance. I love romance. I just think that that is just a really easy spot to enter into the game. [00:21:43.680] - Sunyi Due to the readership, yeah. [00:21:45.210] - Donyae Yeah, due to the readership. It's huge. They will find you. But I think hybrid works best for people now in the year of our Lord 2025 versus 2012, right? Hybrid works best for people if they have already been traditionally published. And then they're looking at like trying to sell stuff they've either already had out there or stuff that they're putting out there now because they're able to pull in people because maybe their book didn't do that well, they only sold a couple thousand copies, but like now those people who bought that book, they're like, oh, I like this person, and a couple thousand copies of a self-published book is a lot. [00:22:26.690] - Sunyi Yeah, a lot more money. [00:22:28.050] - Scott Yep. [00:22:28.290] - Donyae Yeah, like the scale is completely different. A couple thousand copies of a traditionally published book, you didn't earn out your advance and your publisher might not give you another contract. A couple thousand public copies of a self-published book and you paid your rent for 3 months. [00:22:44.320] - Sunyi I get a lot of people, I guess, online kind of going like, why do you care? Why do you argue about this stuff? And the reason why I do is because I do think there's two reasons. I think firstly, the misinformation is dangerous. Like when you have people out there going, oh yeah, agents will ask you for money up front and they won't take your book unless you're edited at first and all this kind of stuff. And it's normal for everyone to ignore you for like 6 weeks without replying to emails, it means that if authors go into like these relationships or situations, you know, say you have an agent who doesn't reply, like he takes 2 months between emails and the internet's told you that's normal, that's what trad is like. You're not gonna realise this person is being useless. And yeah, if your editor doesn't edit your book and you're like, oh well, everyone on Threads told me the editors don't edit anymore. Yeah, they generally do. If your editor's not editing is actually a massive fucking problem. Like people get fired for that shit. There was an editor who was fired for not editing. [00:23:41.620] - Sunyi I probably shouldn't say that on the podcast, but, um, do you remember Zach Orgyle? Yeah, he was one, wasn't he? [00:23:49.490] - Donyae Who? [00:23:50.550] - Sunyi Zach. He was with Tor Forge and he went to print with no edits. [00:23:55.010] - Scott Uh, no, that was, um, I am thinking the right person. [00:23:58.960] - Sunyi I just gave the wrong white man. [00:24:02.650] - Scott Come on, man. [00:24:05.450] - Donyae Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:10.590] - Scott Zach— shit, I have his book behind me somewhere. It was Zach. He's a nice, super nice guy too. He's with Robert now, I think, actually. [00:24:21.740] - Donyae We should just cut this. [00:24:31.030] - Sunyi Print for both of his books with no one but him and his agent editing. But that is unusual. [00:24:36.160] - Donyae How? What was he even doing? He probably just had too many books. [00:24:39.230] - Sunyi As far as we can tell, what he was doing was acquiring books for six figures and then just like putting them in a pile and pretending they didn't exist while hiding in his apartment and just like not answering emails. [00:24:49.440] - Scott So no, I feel bad. Yeah, I mean, I don't feel bad necessarily in those instances, right? For the editors because they're— like some of us know very well, when an editor does that, they're dooming that author to basically a failed career that they're going to have to restart somehow, right? Like that is just an absolute career killer in a lot of instances. So it's a significant harm to any author they do that kind of thing to. But at the same time, now that we've seen a few more editors in the space and gotten to know them, etc., it's pretty obvious that there's also a high level of burnout with editors, and they're, they're being asked to do a lot of work, a lot of different roles all at the same time. And I, I suspect— I don't know this, but I suspect that editors who do find some success, especially in a repeated fashion, are probably asked to do more and more and more. And so they start dropping the ball, they start burning out. And even if they are very well-intentioned, and even though it is, you know, causing serious harm to authors, it may be a systemic failure, even though from our perspective it looks like, or at least from a limited perspective, it looks like a, you know, just a pure personal failure on the part of that editor. [00:26:30.640] - Scott And sometimes it might be, it might just be some asshole not doing their job, but it's just an asshole. Yeah, it's hard to tell. Yeah, it can be hard to tell. [00:26:41.410] - Sunyi I think the editors are easy for people to villainize, and I I really wonder what it's like sometimes to be a trad editor scrolling through social media and seeing nothing but people say that, you know, editors don't edit and they're all money-grubbing and they're all fucking horrible humans. And I think I said this once on Threads, but I think possibly part of the problem, right, is like if someone says something about trad authors, like, oh, only like cookie cutter books get picked up, I can wait until that conversation and be like, oh right, which books? Which books do you mean? Like, tell me to my face which of us you think is It's cookie cutter. Editors are not going to do that. You're never going to find an editor wading into like a Threads post going like, okay, listen punks, this is how it works. They can't do that. [00:27:29.020] - Donyae They just have to say nothing. [00:27:29.740] - Sunyi They are not allowed. [00:27:31.020] - Scott Yeah. [00:27:31.420] - Sunyi Yeah. So they cannot defend themselves. They can't talk about their jobs. They're these far away distant figures who simultaneously become a figure of hate and hope for aspiring authors. They're very misunderstood, I think. Occasionally some of them are assholes, which doesn't help because those examples tend to get showcased around. [00:27:50.110] - Scott Yeah, that, that example though, it even has some nuance, right? So obviously I don't think that, uh, trad is only picking up cookie-cutter books, but at the same time we occasionally have complaints that it is— does seem to be books of a certain type that seem to keep getting picked up. And I'm not even just talking about genre. I'm talking about like, you know, when retellings were a huge thing and still are to some extent, etc. But also the most common response I'm getting on sub right now with my historical fiction about the founding of Mormonism is that they don't want to touch Mormonism. They're like, nope. They're like, we think this is a really hot topic and hope somebody picks it up, blah, blah, blah. But they just don't want that at their imprint. And so I'm— I get it. I'm not gonna argue with them, obviously, but it can be hard to be the first one to, I guess, break whatever mould trad has found themselves in at any given time. [00:29:01.670] - Sunyi Well, have you tried writing an abuse porn Harry Potter fanfiction, Scott? [00:29:08.310] - Scott To be fair, I have not done that, my bad. [00:31:37.520] - Sunyi The other reason why I kind of try and argue with people about this stuff is because I do think there's a siloing that's going on in our community, in our communities. I mean, we have that politically, people already being siloed in their little groups, but there's a siloing going on between authors because now when I see people just spewing vitriol, saying nonsense like I don't know, you need 5, you need to pay for 5 editors before you even query or whatever. I mute and restrict them, sometimes block them. And that means that we are removed from each other's feeds. They are only having echo chamber dialogue with the people who think things like them. And I'm only having dialogue with people who think like me. And there's none of this, there's actually less transparency and there's less sharing of information. Which I think it will have a knock-on effect over time. [00:32:27.370] - Donyae Yeah, I— so for me, I am moved to correct and to share knowledge because when I started to kind of be like, maybe I want to— I might want to do this writing thing, I might want to, you know, try. It was people on the internet who told me how it works. It wasn't like knowledge that I came by, like I didn't read, I didn't research, it was other writers who were telling me like, this is what a query is, this is how you submit short stories, this is how you know someone is legit, like all of that information came from other writers and other places. So I'm old, so the places that I really started at were MySpace writing groups. Yeah, back in the day. I miss Tom. And also there is a forum, it's still active, an online forum called Absolute Write. [00:33:33.150] - Sunyi Yes, I was there too. Oh, did I meet you there? Maybe I did. [00:33:37.380] - Donyae I think so. It was years ago that I was like really active on there. What was your screen name? [00:33:43.160] - Sunyi Oh, now you're asking. I think it was either Aronwyn or Nycterris. It's always one of the, one of those two. And I think I technically first joined in 2010. But at the time I was one of those, oh, I don't want to critique other people. I just want people to give me feedback type writers who need to grow the fuck up. Because if you're not ready to critique others, you're not ready to be critiqued. And that's the place I was in. So I think 2016 is when I came back to it, having not posted at all in the interim 6 years. And I was very, very active until it got massively hacked and was down for like 3 years. And now it's dead. I do think we need to return to forums though, because they're a return to long form, to nuance, to a degree of accountability, because everything you post is on the internet forever. [00:34:28.320] - Donyae Yes. I was on there, oh God, it was a while ago. It was like 2006, 2007. I'm old. Yes, I was, my screen name was The Grand Duchess, and I actually went and logged back in for for the first time in years, like just like last month, because I was trying to find out something about a publisher that had like ghosted everybody. I was just being nosy. [00:35:00.340] - Sunyi That used to be such a good resource. [00:35:02.360] - Donyae Yes, see, like those sorts of resources were what like guided me, and I was able to go back in and be like, actually, I wrote a book, it got published. But, you know, for me, having had that background, now I see these people out here in, in these streets just spreading misinformation, confused about— like, do you know the amount of people that simply do not know how to submit a short story? They don't know how to, they don't know that they can, they don't know where to look, they like, they have no idea. They just think, oh, I wrote a short story, So I guess I'll put it on Amazon for free or a dollar and it'll be a magnet for my newsletter. Like that's like that's how— because they don't have any sort of like way to access that knowledge. So for me, I go in, I correct that misinformation because if someone hadn't been there to say, this is what we do, this is how we do it. [00:36:07.200] - Sunyi Yeah. [00:36:07.920] - Donyae I would have never been able to do it. I would— I wouldn't have known. I would have no idea how to look for an agent, where to look for an agent, what is a red flag in any of these things. I wouldn't have known something as simple as the money flows to the author. Like, I— that's where I learned that. [00:36:32.130] - Sunyi We interviewed that guy. He was, um, Very old school, the man that coined that phrase. No, so I will add a caveat to my previous statement. I do engage with people. I try to. However, what I'm finding really frustrating is there is a huge spate of, I'm going to say people, but I think some of them might be bots. I don't know. You just like floods and floods of people who have like 30 to 60 followers and a stock image for their profile picture that may or may not be AI, and they just pop out of nowhere and their entire feed is just like fiery little hot takes. Or pity marketing, like, well, I tried to query, but then an agent wrote to me and said, oh, your book was the best thing since the Great American Novel. However, you didn't have exactly 10,204 followers, so I'm not going to sign you. And it's like clearly the fakest shit you've ever seen. Like, Sorry, but it is. I know some of those storeys are real, but percentage-wise, I think it's far fewer than they claim to be. Just because you get some of the alleged rejections that people post, they just do not sound anything like what agents write. [00:37:43.760] - Sunyi Yeah. You know what I mean? And there's just a lot of false information and a lot of people that I think are trying to gain platform unethically. By, I'm going to start a hot topic and I'm going to build a platform and everyone will follow me because they feel sorry for me because I've been treated badly. And then I'm going to use that platform to self-pub and pivot and get sales. And I don't know if that even works as a strategy, but it's not very nice. [00:38:08.710] - Donyae I don't think it does work as a strategy. I think it has a limited reach. I think because ultimately, regardless of what you eventually you're gonna have to show the product. Eventually you're gonna have to do it. You're gonna have to put the book out, right? Like, 'cause we're talking, we're authors, this is about books. But like, you're gonna have to eventually show that you did this thing. And if you don't have the juice, you don't have the juice. Like, and people are gonna recognise that. They're gonna get the book, if you manage to get the book out, they're going to get the book and be like, wow, this was a piece of shit. [00:38:49.690] - Sunyi And even if it's good, I don't think torpedoing your own community is actually very helpful. [00:38:55.030] - Donyae It's not, because that's exactly like that. That's the case with Fredas Moon, right? Do y'all know who that is? You're missing out. Fredas Moon is an author in quotes. Uh, that's not fair. All right, that person actually can write. They are a talented author. Unfortunately, they are also a not nice person. They have had like 4 or 5 different fake identities. They— in their last big blowup where they were exposed as being this, this person, this weird scammer and life ruiner, um, it came out that they had had like 4 agents, which was wild because like Yeah, I know this person, huh? [00:39:43.470] - Sunyi We used to have the same agent. [00:39:45.160] - Donyae Yeah, why? Why? Because most people can't get one agent right. Meanwhile, they're getting all of the agents. But like, ultimately, despite the fact that they were legitimately, legitimately a talented author— they are, they're back now and under a new name, um they are legitimately a talented author. They are also a not great person. And so they cannot maintain their career because nobody wants to work with them. They're a bad person. [00:40:22.740] - Sunyi We don't— I love how you're having to say person because we don't even actually know what gender they are. That changes every time they reinvent. [00:40:29.170] - Donyae Like, I'm not trying to say anything about their gender journey, but like, every time they cut it, they change. [00:40:36.050] - Sunyi Yeah, what they're doing, like, they commit to the, the new identity, let's say. [00:40:40.220] - Donyae Yeah. [00:40:40.780] - Sunyi Um, it is a waste of writing talent. And, and they, they were an assistant literary agent at one point as well. Um, so they got quite high up the food chain. And there was another— there's some— there's a group of reviewers I've seen, they, they have a YouTube channel. What are they called? They do this thing called, um, hour-long book roasts. And it's what it sounds like, basically. For an hour, they just like absolutely bash a, a popular book and explain how it's bad. And this is all in service of you then can sign up to their Patreon and pay them money where they presumably give you writing tips on how to write a not bad book, unlike the, the bad popular one they've just ripped to shreds. [00:41:20.880] - Donyae I hate this. [00:41:23.110] - Sunyi If they ever get to the point where they're— because they are seeking publication— if those three ever get to the point where they are published, they are not going to find anyone who will blurb because like your whole life I guess my question is kind of open-ended, which is how do you talk about the industry and have honest conversations about our struggles and the things that are wrong in it? Because you don't have to invent problems to try. It's got so many fucking problems. Like, the question for me is how do you, how do you talk about the industry and the problems it has without fueling unnecessary negativity, then, then which then creates a culture of hostility and misinformation? But then you still have to be real and push push for change. And it's just basically needing everyone to have common sense, which none of us do anymore because our attention spans have been shortened to microseconds by TikTok. And thanks, TikTok. [00:42:17.060] - Donyae So I think like, okay, it's going to be a long answer. But I think that part, like the first step, like the very first step before you start course correcting fully is we got to get on the same page about what we are all talking about. And I know we had like a brief, a brief little like back and forth on Threads because I had mentioned that there had been a co-opting of language in the way that, for example, we talk about or like self-published people call the money they make from their books royalties. But it's not, it's the profit because they're acting as a publisher. And I think that as small as that seems, getting that language clear is the first step because I think a lot of what is happening in these discussions is a misunderstanding of what we are both talking about and how we're using this language. Like when we talk about marketing, for example, that's one of the big myths, right? That when you're in trad, you have to do your own marketing, right? But then if you're in trad, you're like, this is not— like, no, like, the publisher still markets for you. [00:43:36.100] - Donyae Like, what are you talking about? And it's because people who are self-publishing are talking about things like, we got to get our ARC review team together, we have to print our ARCs, we have to hunt down the reviewers. Like, They're talking about all of that. That's not what we're talking about. And they don't understand that there's a difference in these things when we're discussing— [00:43:58.630] - Sunyi So, trauma versus marketing. Yeah. [00:44:00.800] - Donyae So, like, and that's just like an example that really, I think for me, like really like shows this difference. And I think that there's a lot of that confusion happening because when you get down to brass tacks, If you are self-publishing, you are not just operating as an author, you are operating as a publisher as well. So if you are talking to other authors, a lot of times people who are self-publishing are also talking about the stuff they have to deal with as a publisher and applying that to the work of being an author. And I think the first step is really understanding, like, if you're an author talking to other authors, this is what we're talking about. This is under the job title of author. I don't know who you're supposed to talk to about your deep feelings about publishing. I don't know who you're having that conversation with, but it's not going to be any other authors because I'm not in charge of my ARCs, I'm not in charge of running ads, I'm not in charge of hunting down someone to blurb my book. Like, these are outside of my job description. Although now that I said this, I'm like, oh no, I have to like look over my back cover copy this weekend. [00:45:17.530] - Donyae Oh, don't forget to do that. So I think that that is step one is like really understanding this is what we mean when we talk about these things versus this other thing. And then once we really have that, then we can really start looking at what the actual things are. What are we upset about? Like, because I had mentioned in the beginning, there's stuff that we're upset about in trad publishing. There's issues that we have, but some of them are just personal and minor and like, I just want to be mad about it versus big systemic issues. And being upset about some of the edits that are proposed, that's a personal thing. That's not a problem with traditional publishing. Me being upset about my marketing budget, that could be a little bit of a systemic issue. It could also be a personal issue. Like, there's nuance there. But like, people who have not been through the process cannot fully speak on that process because that is something that you do not understand until you are in it. That is something you really have no concept of until you are going through the process. Even something as small as the cover process is something that you think you know about, but you don't until you're actually sitting there and you are actually seeing that there is an art department and an art director and how you work with your editor and like if you don't like it, how your agent gets involved. [00:46:57.530] - Donyae Like, you don't understand those things until you're in it. And then when you get to that, like, I really think that if we're going to discuss those things, if we're going to talk about the issues that publishing has with things like race and gender and sexuality and like really picking up those books and supporting those books, those discussions are things that have to happen with full understanding that we are all coming from different places, that there are things you don't understand about the system that we are all locked into. And you have to approach those with open ears and like the willingness to understand the nuance. And that's a lot of discussion and that's a lot of back and forth. But the first step, I think, is really like that educational level of things and like really understanding this is what publishing is actually like as an author who is not the publisher. We are a different entity. And I've actually said that on threads. I'm like, this thing that you're upset about is a publishing problem. That's not an author to author issue. That's not something that authors are in charge of. That is an issue with the publishing side of things. [00:48:14.790] - Sunyi And the way that people pick up on those things and they make a small experience global, it means I find I'm less likely to talk about things. Like, I'm less likely to say, oh, you know, I really struggled with this round of copy edits or something. I didn't agree with the copy editor to someone because then they're more, you know, you don't, I don't want someone to turn around and go, aha, see, look, in trad copy editors just stomp all over you and change your document. And that's not like, That's just like, I mean, I do actually like my copy editors, but you don't want to say something that sets off an avalanche or is used and weaponized in a way that you didn't expect. And that means you end up saying less or only focusing on the positives, which is actually less transparency and less discussion. [00:48:57.820] - Donyae Yeah. It's frustrating because people do take what you say and use it for their own agenda about, and to like verify their feelings. But it's not the whole story. Because like, even in your example of, I didn't like what my copy editor had to say, or I didn't like the, the copy edit notes that I was getting, then someone who's outside of the system would be like, see, this is proof that you don't have any control. Because that's what I feel is really at the base of, you know, the drive for self-publishing. It has to do with, uh, control and also fear of rejection combining into making this 'But they'll use that as you don't have any control, not realising that the rest of that is, I didn't like the edits I was getting from the copy editor. So I went to my main editor and said, hey, there's a problem. And my editor said, I'm so sorry, we understand. Please continue the review and just stat whatever you don't like.' It makes me really miss the days. [00:50:00.650] - Sunyi I know I've said this before, but it makes me miss the days when when we still had forums, because when people were actively using places like Absolute Write, one of the things that happens is you log in and you see right at the top there, here's a sticky, here's an FAQ, here are all the basic things. These are what the terms mean. These are what these types of publishers mean. Here's some general information for spotting red flag presses or predatory institutions or bad agents. Or you can go and like look all the reviews for like any agent or publisher that existed. You could go and make a post and someone would come along and view it if it didn't already exist and give you feedback. And that one kind of central place where everyone can get a basic education without everything having to be repeated kind of telephone whisper style through threads over and over. It was just such a good central way of learning. So educational. Which I don't think the current generation of writers have much access to, just because of how our communities and our internet interactions have developed. So for example, I once encountered a man in a Facebook group who, his path on publishing was he was put out by Pegasus, who are a vanity press, and he'd given them grands and grands of his money. [00:51:15.660] - Sunyi You know, he is the victim of a scammer in this situation, but he had these really negative ideas about self-publishing and trad. You know, he believed that if he was self-published, he'd have to spend more money than he was spending on his Vanity Press, which is not true. And he'd have better royalties and all his rights. Uh, but then he also had these really crazy ideas about how trad worked and he was just arguing with everyone and he would not listen. He will not be told. He was defending his Vanity Press, which was just wild to me. It's like arguing with a flat earther where you're just like, How do I start? [00:51:49.750] - Donyae Like, it is like they're so committed to like whatever, whatever we're believed. They'll have you out here thinking that like somehow you have had an exceptional experience, but like honestly, like once we get into the, the actual work of the book, it is, it's, we're all having like the same process. Like it's the same for everybody. But they'll have you out here believing that like somehow you are having a one-off experience as opposed to this is what it's actually like. And I think part of that is because going back to an earlier thought, there are far less of us by design, right? Like everybody doesn't make it this far at all. At all. Like, I think, I think the stat is like only 1 or 2% of people who even query an agent get picked up or something like that. [00:52:48.210] - Sunyi Oh, it is, it's probably about 0.3 at the moment. [00:52:51.320] - Donyae Yeah, it's real, it's real small right now, um, but like it's really small. So like out of 100 people who want to get a book done, right, like maybe one of us gets to make it. And I think that is what helps fuel this. There are so few of us overall, and there— we are over— like, certain aspects of us are overrepresented, right? Like, on online, in the internet sphere. So you're going to get more, I think, like, uh, genre writers, more— like, there's going to be more of a science fiction, fantasy, horror— there's going to be more of us than there are, like, literary fiction writers. There's going to be less of them. There's going to be less children, like true children authors who are writing for little guys. There's going to be far less. And there's lots, like the people who do a lot of IP work, like boring IP work, not boring, but like, but like, you know what I mean? Like the people who do a lot of IP work, they're less represented. Who else is going to be like less— nonfiction authors, boring nonfiction authors, not people who are like, I want everyone to know my story. [00:54:10.940] - Donyae Like those, those people are online, but like people who are like, I write cookbooks. Yeah, they're like, those people are less represented online. The reason that I say this is because there are coworkers and colleagues things too. Like, even if we are in different genres, we are all in the same business, we are all part of the same system, but they're not going to be showing up. So it does— like, their numbers, their voices, their experiences are not counted. And so what we are seeing is a small group of people as traditionally published. So we are all traditionally published fiction writers, most of us are genre writers. This is our experience within that realm, and there's so few of us versus the absolute legion of self-published, usually romance authors, that it sounds like our experiences are really minoritized versus the reality of like what all of these other people are experiencing. And I think that that really goes into a lot of play because then And what we're getting a lot of is the experience of trying to break into romance writing, which is very difficult. It is very difficult. And like, that is really— that's really influencing how people, and especially because a lot of that group is going to be people who are in a minority position of some sort, they're going to be women at the very top. [00:55:45.300] - Donyae They are probably going to be people of colour, they're probably going to be LGBTQ people, like they're minority people who that particular genre does not represent well at all because of a lot of reasons that are probably for a different podcast. But like that, so that experience of rejection, that experience of trying to break into a market that's hard to break into despite being huge, it's overrepresented versus the people who did make it, who are generally coming from a completely different genre field. [00:56:25.640] - Sunyi I'm going to ask a quick question to both of you. I'll start with you, Scott, so that you feel like you're slightly included. [00:56:33.240] - Scott No, you're fine. [00:56:34.300] - Sunyi I'm sorry. [00:56:35.250] - Scott No, this is fantastic. [00:56:37.000] - Sunyi What do you think is the biggest problem with trad publishing if you had to pick one, an actual problem. [00:56:42.950] - Scott Oh, Jesus, you should have given me some warning on that. [00:56:47.430] - Sunyi I would have had to make a list and a ranking. [00:56:52.250] - Scott God, yeah, Danya, if you, if you want to take that, if you have your answer ready. [00:56:57.550] - Donyae I do. [00:56:59.310] - Scott Okay, yeah, I'll go second. [00:57:01.990] - Donyae So my answer really is very specific, not necessarily specific to me, but like specific to me in this conversation. I'm the only person that this affects. But I think one of the biggest issues that I've had in trad publishing now that I've been in the game, right, like I've been in the game for a minute. Yeah, I think the biggest issue is I do not think that trad publishing markets to Black people very well. [00:57:35.160] - Sunyi Yeah, um, I've heard that a lot. [00:57:37.090] - Donyae That's why I'm like, this is only— this only matters to me. But I don't think that they have figured out how to reach those audiences, um, who are not watching, um, the same channels as like the white readership is watching. Like, yes, if you make a book go viral on BookTok, sure, that will reach that reader base. But I don't think they're very good at marketing especially adult fiction to Black audiences. And the reason that I think this is— there are, um, multiple Black authors who have been in the game for a minute. So I'm thinking about the Reformatory Reformatory. I'm thinking about, um, Blacktop Wasteland. Um, and like knowing that those books, those are not those authors' first books. [00:58:40.420] - Scott By— [00:58:40.900] - Donyae well, Blacktop Wasteland is his. Uh, he just had— was his King of Ashes, I think, is the last one he had? S.A. Cosby had out? He's on like book 5 or something. Um, But the reason I bring those up is because those are two books that I am— that everyone is suddenly talking about. They're suddenly talking about these authors like, oh my God, they're so good, have you read them? And it's those first— those are the first books that they are reading by these authors. But these authors have been in the business writing noteworthy, award-winning bestseller for years. For years, Due has been— I think that's her like 10th book or something. For years she's blurbed by Stephen King, and it is only now that she's— right, she's got, she's got a Stephen King blurb. Um, it is only now that she's really getting this, this notice. It is only now that people are starting to talk about these books, and I'm like That's unhinged. That doesn't make any sense because that means on this timeline, books that are coming out now from Black authors like myself are not getting the push into those communities. [01:00:00.660] - Donyae It's not finding our readership until we're 5, 6, 7 books down the line. So we have to maintain a career in publishing for a lot of books before we start getting noticed by our own communities. And there's something wrong there. There is some holdup there where publishing has not figured out how to market fiction to Black readers. And we love that shit. We love fiction, okay? We love it. But like, there's a disconnect there. I don't know if it's because they're not placing the books in the communities, in our communities. I don't know if it's because they're not reaching the same internet paths. Like, they didn't break into Black Twitter. I don't know. I miss Black Twitter. [01:00:58.950] - Sunyi You know, it's who you employ. If all your editors are Caucasian, then they just don't have any of that kind of cultural community connexion or social awareness around it. So— [01:01:13.700] - Donyae Our marketing, I honestly, I think it's on the marketing side, less on the editing, because my editors are Black. Yeah, yeah, they're all Black. I had to think about it. But I think it's in the marketing side, and we don't talk about that. Because marketing— but marketing is like a separate secret cabala in your publisher. Like, you don't ever really talk to those people. Like, you may meet them, you have your little marketing meeting, they show up, they're, "Hi, I'm this." You may get an email, but like, you do not have a relationship with marketing and publicity. They make so many decisions around how your book is going to go, and you like never meet those people. [01:02:01.440] - Sunyi And it was like separate, they're different department. [01:02:04.410] - Donyae Yes. But those people are probably white. So, and like, even like, I obviously I met marketing because I had my little marketing meeting and yeah, they were white even though all of my editorial team African American. I do, there is for sure a Black person in marketing now. And she's great, she's lovely, but mostly those people are not people of colour in marketing and publicity. And this isn't anything against them, but they would not have those cultural connexions to know how to market to other people of colour around a book. And I think that is part of what is fuelling this issue. And like, that too, that is it. That I think that is a diversity and a lack of diversity in publishing that we don't talk about because it's not sexy, right? It's not about the front-facing, not about us front-facing authors. It's not about editors who feel like the people in control. It's this shadowy department that no one ever deals with. It like, you never meet these people unless you happen be sent on a book event, then you'll see them. But like, and they're very nice. But yeah, like, I think that that really has a big, uh, effect on what happens in marketing and why we see that these books aren't getting the push that they need to like really get out there and really be sold to people. [01:03:39.570] - Donyae It's because of the lack of diversity, not necessarily in editing but in marketing, because that's also who decides whether or not they're going to acquire that damn book. It's a— [01:03:51.820] - Sunyi I'll give a quick shout out to my marketer, actually, who's Tyran Lewis at Tor. But yeah, she is quite rare, I suppose. [01:03:59.210] - Donyae Shout out to my marketing team. You guys were super nice to me. I love you. [01:04:04.880] - Sunyi You thought of an answer yet, Scott? [01:04:06.730] - Scott It's— I mean, it's so hard. We have how many episodes of this podcast talking about all the different aspects. But, Donnie, I think yours is a good one, a very good one, and I think we could talk about that and various aspects of why that happens and, uh, things for a while. But, um, uh, at least at the moment, I will go with the commoditization of people. In the industry. And I say people because I think it's done both to authors and their work and editors. And I don't think this is unique to publishing, right? A lot of companies treat their people and, and their customers, but their people that work for them as disposable. And the— any consideration of those people as people is very secondary to their bottom line, their top line, their image as a company, etc., etc. The, the corporation, uh, does not necessarily care about the people. The thing in publishing that I don't think is accounted for necessarily, especially on the author side, is something we talk about a lot, and that is that authors are not— don't have really a grace period to grow. A lot of authors at least don't have a grace period to grow into, you know, a 4, 5, 6 book streak like you talked about, Donnier, that is often required to get attention or even build your, your own abilities or style up sufficiently. [01:06:02.900] - Scott But when authors, especially new authors, are treated as a commodity, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought that goes into the decisions that are made. And I'm assuming at a quite high level that affect those books and those authors, which results in a highly concentrated industry in terms of the books you have available, the books you see on bookshelves, the books you see, and the authors you see those books coming from. There are very few authors that are doing very well, and everybody else is dog food. Right. [01:06:49.470] - Sunyi Okay. Yeah, no, I think that's a very classic Scott answer, but also a good one. I think if I had to pick one, it would just be that I actually think editors do too much. Like, they have too many jobs and too many responsibilities. And for me, I think that's a root of a lot of issues when one person has to be not just editing, but a production manager and championing your, your marketing and your sales and having the vision. And that's crazy. Also make it like making decisions about money when they're not like money people. Do you know what I mean? Like, because often it is like the editors, you know, when we have books that are massively overbought, massively, massively overbought, uh, that's someone going crazy on something they personally love. And that can be a good thing and a bad thing. But I think often it can be a reckless thing and a wise thing. [01:07:48.110] - Scott Yeah. [01:07:48.850] - Sunyi So yeah, just for me, it's just the fact that they have to tick about 10 different boxes and they really should be doing maybe 3 or 4 things which don't burn them out quite so badly. But yeah, I guess we're now at the part of the podcast which you can skip it if you want, Donja, but we quite often ask people if we forgot to do this last time because it was just you and me, Scott. If there's a petty— what is the pettiest hill you would die on? [01:08:14.680] - Donyae All right, so this has nothing to do with publishing, okay? Nothing. But I think all people can get behind me. I think they can all agree with me. I think they're all in my corner on this, okay? Male Instacart shoppers should be abolished. They should not be able to take orders for grocery stores. If you are ordering groceries, it should only ever be a woman. I'm sorry. I look, they cannot be trusted in the grocery store. [01:08:46.820] - Scott Okay. [01:08:47.470] - Donyae Like, I literally, I went grocery shopping. I was with my oldest. We were in the grocery store and I saw a man need directions to the pasta aisle. Okay. Like, they, they cannot. I ordered, I ordered DoorDash because I needed some stuff for dinner. I got beef gravy. That's what I needed to make my dinner. They bought me pickled beets. Okay. Okay. They should not be allowed. They should not be allowed that. And when you order, like, feminine hygiene products, I cannot tell you the amount of times that I've been like, I need pads. And they've shown— they have taken a picture of, like, the urinary incontinence aisle and been like, there's nothing, they don't have what you ordered. And I have to explain to a grown man that I need menstrual products and then them being like, I don't see it in the aisle and having to be like, I need you to go find a woman that works there. Okay, this conversation, I'm not— go find a worker, a femme worker, so that she can point you in the right direction. Oh my God. So yeah, no, they should be abolished. Okay. [01:09:59.440] - Sunyi Oh, I need to ask you to plug your books as well. And, and, you know, I think, I think you should go ahead and be bold and like plug your— is it the Ko-fi that you use for stuff? [01:10:10.990] - Donyae I do. Yeah. I, um, I do use that one. Um, so yeah, I will, I will plug myself. [01:10:18.860] - Sunyi That man's not paid any child support yet, has he? [01:10:21.980] - Donyae He is not. He, he's not. Um, you know, that $5 had to last all through— has to last through the holidays, I guess. All right, all right, plugging my books. Um, all right, yeah, so I have out in the world that you can pick up wherever books are sold my debut novel Midnight Rooms. Um, it's a gothic horror novel, um, about a woman who marries into a very old family and has a bad time, uh, you know, classic gothic horror. And I have also an anthology that I am part of called All These Sunken Souls where I tell a storey that involves the practise of hoodoo. And my forthcoming adult novel is due to come out in this summer, in August I believe, and it is called The Sunken, The Adored. It takes place in Venice in the 1700s and where a enslaved— a formerly enslaved woman comes to Venice and she finds community and freedom, but that comes at the hefty price of something hunting the canals as she watches. And if you just want to follow me to get a look at my art and the other writing that I do, you can find me on Kofi, K-O-F-I. [01:11:48.650] - Donyae My name is Donyae there, D-O-N-Y-A-E, and you can see what else I'm up to. [01:11:55.780] - Sunyi You've been listening to the Publishing Radio Podcast with Sunyi Dean and Scott Drakeford. Tune in next time for more in-depth discussion on everything publishing industry. See you later.