WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Sunny Dean. And I'm Scott Drakeford.

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And this is the Publishing Radio podcast. In

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2022, we both launched debut novels in the same

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genre with the same publisher in the same year.

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But despite having very similar starts, our books

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and subsequently each of our careers went in

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very different directions. That pattern repeats

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itself throughout the industry over and over.

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Why do some books succeed while others seem to

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be dead on arrival? In this podcast, we aim to

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answer those questions and many more, along with

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how to build and maintain an author career. Everyone

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signing a contract deserves to know what they're

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really signing up for. In an industry that loves

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its secrets, we'll be sharing real details from

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real people. We'll cover the gamut of life as

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a Big Five published author, from agents to publishing

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contracts, finances, and more. talk about the

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absence at the start do we at least acknowledge

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it time has passed and what brings us back to

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it which is I think we stopped when we ran out

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of things to say and had books to work on and

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we wanted to record one again because we fucking

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felt like it and we don't need to do this for

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sponsorships we have no rules and we have no

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bosses we have no schedule we need to follow

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no baby jesus dolls that we need to sell they

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never gave us that sweet sponsorship huh we talked

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about having a guest for this one and i think

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actually it just takes a lot of stress out to

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not do that As much as I have enjoyed all of

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our guests, and I don't regret any of the ones

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we recorded, including the ones we couldn't air.

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There were like four or five episodes, I think,

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in the end, which never actually made it out.

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Due to either the episode had to be pulled, or

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guests felt they kind of changed their mind,

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which is totally within their remit, or they

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just didn't have the time to get around to edits

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and approval. that's fine. But man, it, you know,

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it adds a lot of stress and time basically in

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a lot of edits and maybe we'll bring one on again

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sometime, but I'm not fussed at the moment. And

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nobody really wants to talk about how shitty

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it is after a first contract is gone and what

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the state of the industry really looks like.

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So I guess it's just us, huh? I think that's

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the heart of the issue. There has been a lot

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of chatter this year. I guess everyone's on the

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same zeitgeist wave about career longevity and

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life after debut. And that's something that obviously

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we have been dealing with ourselves and we've

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been talking about a lot with our friends. The

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kind of the heart of what's even driving this

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brief revival from the grave, which we shall

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shortly climb back in, is the fact that we probably

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know fewer people now who are... agented or in

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contract than we did when this podcast started

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and that's not because our friendship group has

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changed uh that's because a lot of people are

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just not or even like if there are some some

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people are there but they're like career ghosts

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i want to say I remember reading that statistic

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about how a lot of books fall off. A lot of authors

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get kind of bumped out of the industry after

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the first couple of books, their contract wraps

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up and thinking, that's so high, surely it won't

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be that bad. And a few years down the line, I'm

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looking at it going, actually, that's about right,

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I think. Probably at least 40 % of the people

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we know are struggling to stay in or are totally

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gone. And that includes some very big books where

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the first book didn't actually do very well.

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And so the second book is kind of there, but

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has like no reads or anything. I mean, my second

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book has like 37 Goodreads ratings or something

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a year after release. Like basically just friends

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and family and not even most of those have read

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it. But that's somewhat expected given the circumstance,

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right? But yeah, for that to happen to big books

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or at least a big debut and then their second

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book. lands like that i mean you're just never

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safe the thing that we keep coming up against

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again and again is we have friends that like

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their book does not even badly uh and not even

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like middling sometimes the book does really

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quite well like hitting sunday times list i i

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know that that's that doesn't mean what it used

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to because nowadays the you know crateflation

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and listflation is such that hitting the list

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is like a minimum rather than you know a great

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celebration for publishers they don't they just

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see it as whatever but you know books that earn

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out and they do really well and they hit lists

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and they make award lists and the publishers

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then turn around and go still not good enough

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we think your second book is not going to sell

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right and that's That's just crazy to me because

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there is a drop from debut to sophomore and publishers

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seem to know it is. And when I talked about it

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a bit on Threads, the wonderful Chuck Tingle

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commented and he said that he'd been told by

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publishers that, yeah, your second book generally

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sells about 30 % less. And publishers just seem

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to know this and they just seem to take it for

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granted. Instead of like... kind of supporting

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book 30 more i guess i don't i don't know they

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just seem to kind of bake that into their future

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predictions and go oh well based on this we think

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your next book is going to do like that and they

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don't calculate your say your they don't calculate

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your crates they assume that's not going to happen

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they assume that all the good things that lined

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up the first book won't repeat um so they end

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up with this very low prediction for what your

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second book is and based off that they then don't

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offer contracts or my my new least favorite thing

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which is offering people telling people oh if

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you pitch your option now we won't buy your book

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yeah so why don't you wait till the sales come

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through for your second one and try again and

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like a lot of people are hearing that i think

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from different publishers and to me i personally

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can't see the advantage for authors i feel like

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if you if you wait for those sales to come back

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they're not going to be good because book two

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is not going to get pushed and you're then going

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to have to you're going to get rejected anyway

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but you're going to have to go and sub with a

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bad sales record as opposed to an unknown one

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well and i mean the drop in sales makes sense

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from book one to book two for a series right

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for i mean typically we're selling trilogies

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because there's just naturally going to be a

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drop off of people who read the first book and

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and didn't like it enough to continue and nobody

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there at least nobody sane is reading a book

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two without having read book one but for you

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know, a contract like yours, where you have a

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contract for three standalones that just, I mean,

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minus those big things you mentioned, like crates,

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Barnes and Noble picks, et cetera, that are much

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harder to account for. That makes sense. Stripping

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those out of, or at least applying some modifier

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to represent not being able to count on those

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happening again. for sales projections makes

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sense, right? But absent those, there's absolutely

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no reason for a publisher to just assume that

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a second book not in a series is going to sell

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worse, especially given the name recognition

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that the first book will have built in the fandom.

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The only reason would be lack of publisher output,

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right? Lack of publisher effort. It, unfortunately,

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they dictate how our careers start, they dictate

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how our careers progress, and then they get to

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set the terms for when and how we sign a second

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deal. The unfortunate thing is that it's not

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cut and dry either. Like I can think of at least

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a dozen or more authors who signed either low

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or middling deals for debut contracts right and

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they finished out that contract they didn't get

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a second contract based on the option that they

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turned in but they didn't just like stop writing

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and that's why they haven't been picked up again

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they're still writing they in their minds are

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still a published author and i mean they are

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right yeah but a lot of people are pushed out

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of the industry and are just spinning their wheels

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on this dream and hoping to get back in when

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I just don't see that happening other than a

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few instances where people are switching genres

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or changing names, et cetera. And even then,

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it seems very, very rare. We actually, we collected

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some responses to talk to people about this,

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which came with the caveat that they were happy.

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not the caveat, which came with the condition

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they were happy for some of them to be shared.

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And it was just, it was about different people's

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experiences because not everyone necessarily

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wanted to talk about it, but some did. And, you

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know, some people, so some of the questions that

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we asked were basically, you know, what year

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did you debut? Because I think that makes the

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difference. I think people, I find generally

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people who debuted a bit earlier seem more optimistic,

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possibly that's self -selecting because they

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debuted earlier and they're still here, they've

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survived. But let's see. I don't think I've seen

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this. I don't, I don't, I don't think I've seen

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the responses. So I'm very interested. Okay.

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Can, can you actually see this? So, well, okay.

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We can edit through it as needed, but basically

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it was like, were you a lead? You know, how are

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you published? Most people responding were big

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five. And it's a mix of things. You know, what

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was your experience like working on book two?

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You know, so one person said they felt the biggest

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difference is a systemic thing that went beyond

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publishing. Even though book two is a better

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book, there wasn't debut buzz. So I think that

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is a real thing that that is legitimately an

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issue. You're not new and exciting anymore once

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you've published your first book. And this is

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something I'm thinking about a lot because I

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feel like I had a really good start. My book

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did probably as well as I could have hoped for

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it to do. And I'm staring down the barrel of

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book two, and I'm very acutely aware that all

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the things which lined up for book eaters are

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not going to line up the same way again for Girl

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of a Thousand Faces. Just all the different special

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editions that we got, you know, all the different

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book of the month, you know, that's out of your

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control. The things that made the biggest difference

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to my sales, I don't think I will necessarily

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get. And that means I'm relying on track record,

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which I'm not convinced sells books. and the

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publisher putting in the effort a second time,

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which you need with the standalone. Yeah, that

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is interesting because, well, I haven't read

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the final draft yet, but I've said it before,

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but as much as I love book eaters, I do think

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Girl with a Thousand Faces is better. I think

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it's better, but it's not a high concept book.

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I think the cover helps to make it high concept

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in a way. It really needed that. And I'm tracking

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all kinds of metrics, right? So the first time

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around, I tracked Goodreads ads for book eaters

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month by month. Again, and I'm doing the same.

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I'm way behind compared to book eaters at the

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moment. I tracked cover reveal, but I think,

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oh, we did this, didn't we? We talked a bit about

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the cover reveal and went back through all of

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Tor's cover reveals the past two years and put

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it in a data sheet. And I think, honestly, the

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overwhelming trend was that the... response you

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get to a cover reveal is actually reflective

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of how big your platform is already rather than

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indicative of organic excitement around the book

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you know obviously brandon sanderson gets like

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like his cover reveal is just like they don't

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even do them sometimes they're just like oh we've

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there's a new brandon sanderson book coming out

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with like kind of blank template and that'll

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get like 15 000 likes because you know You could,

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you could do like clip art of just some stick

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figures and it wouldn't matter. His readership

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will buy it because they love his books and they

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love him. So he doesn't, he almost doesn't need

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that. But anyway, I got totally sidetracked there.

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Yeah. So I, I mean, yeah, I hope it goes well.

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I feel like you've got a lot of fans out there,

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especially amongst booksellers. And I hope that

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translates to at least the book getting a shot

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to be on shelves. So some people felt like most

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things were the same. Some people felt like there

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was a steep drop off in support, interest quality,

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you know, no print arcs for second books. That's

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quite common. Oh, really? Tor were like, oh,

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of course there will be arcs. Why wouldn't there

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be? But I did have to push a little bit on the

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UK side, I don't think. they saw the advantage

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except that they didn't want to match the energy

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level kind of thing from the states it's one

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of those things where when publishers say well

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we're not sure arcs help and you think well then

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why the fuck do you print so many of them for

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like lead titles and i i mean yes i think basically

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like what i get from all these responses is that

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it is hard to sustain internal momentum with

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your team And I think that is one of the really

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the big drivers. There's this great article from

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the bookseller where they were talking about

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all these articles that have been coming out

00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:34.580
about career drop -off. And it has this quote

00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:36.960
from David Headley where he's like, well, the

00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.539
biggest impact on sales is staff turnover. People

00:13:39.539 --> 00:13:43.970
leave and no one cares about the book. Where's

00:13:43.970 --> 00:13:46.889
it gone? David Headley. Sales truck is an issue

00:13:46.889 --> 00:13:49.250
and it is rarely the author's fault ever, says

00:13:49.250 --> 00:13:51.970
DHH Literary MD David Headley. He points out

00:13:51.970 --> 00:13:54.129
the high staff turnover in publishing houses

00:13:54.129 --> 00:13:56.549
as one of the major issues driving poor sales.

00:13:57.370 --> 00:13:59.690
An editor buys the book, then the editor leaves.

00:13:59.830 --> 00:14:01.809
An assistant takes over. There is no marketing

00:14:01.809 --> 00:14:04.289
spend. There is no real passion because it was

00:14:04.289 --> 00:14:06.330
not bought by that editor. So how does that affect

00:14:06.330 --> 00:14:09.139
the author's career? Heidly says this happened

00:14:09.139 --> 00:14:11.399
to one of his authors recently. The book sold

00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:15.120
275 copies. It was a lead title, but the editor

00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.779
left and the book was orphaned. And that is the

00:14:17.779 --> 00:14:20.259
reality of the situation. Publishers need to

00:14:20.259 --> 00:14:23.139
get control of what they're doing. It's kind

00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:27.120
of a brutal statement, but he's not wrong. A

00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:33.440
lead title sold 275 copies? If there's no internal

00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:39.259
hype, there's no hype at all. I think you've

00:14:39.259 --> 00:14:41.240
got to be passionate about your book and then

00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.600
your agent and your editorial team and the sales

00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.340
team and then all that feeds all the way down.

00:14:45.500 --> 00:14:49.340
I think more and more that that is such an important

00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:51.960
component and you have to find ways to drive

00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:55.460
that hype. Either you're so fucking big that

00:14:55.460 --> 00:14:58.960
everyone's terrified. No one's going to let Brandon

00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.220
Sanderson's books down, are they? Sorry to keep

00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:05.179
using you as an example, Mr. Sanderson. But no

00:15:05.179 --> 00:15:10.129
one's going to let... yeah i mean even like jk

00:15:10.129 --> 00:15:12.610
rowling right like i bet you're a staff fucking

00:15:12.610 --> 00:15:15.129
hater but they're not gonna do anything to not

00:15:15.129 --> 00:15:18.330
push those books yeah but i and i mean even a

00:15:18.330 --> 00:15:21.409
uh i don't want to say a tear down because that's

00:15:21.409 --> 00:15:24.389
rude but a tear or two down right and i'm not

00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:26.309
gonna name names after i say something like that

00:15:26.309 --> 00:15:30.490
but it does seem like your only choice is to

00:15:30.490 --> 00:15:34.309
get big enough that you have your pick of publishers

00:15:34.309 --> 00:15:37.580
and therefore your publisher knows that they're

00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:40.519
going to lose a moneymaker if they don't put

00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:45.340
out or run the gauntlet, right? You're in a lottery

00:15:45.340 --> 00:15:49.299
where everything has to line up correctly. And

00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:52.220
it seems like the number of people who make it

00:15:52.220 --> 00:15:55.840
out of that gauntlet to that one of those tiers

00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.679
doesn't have to be that Sanderson tier, but one

00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:01.419
of those tiers where you effectively have your

00:16:01.419 --> 00:16:06.299
pick of publishers and... therefore get the treatment

00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:11.259
that you should as a business partner is very

00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:15.419
small, right? Like I can't, I don't know anybody

00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:20.759
personally who has made that leap from okay sales

00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:24.820
or even a debut lead title up into that. They

00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:28.220
can go anywhere they want. I know one or two.

00:16:29.179 --> 00:16:32.279
So Pretty much everyone we know, I think their

00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.159
contracts, they've either been offered the same

00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.059
money more or less or less on the second contract.

00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.259
Gareth Brown is one person who's bucked that

00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:47.779
trend. I think he was like a kind of 500K range

00:16:47.779 --> 00:16:51.059
advance the first contract. His next book is

00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:53.840
higher. But obviously the first book did sell

00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.639
like really, really well. It was a two book contract,

00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:58.620
right? So his second book is kind of out now.

00:16:59.520 --> 00:17:02.399
Another one, Nick Bench. If you remember, he

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.339
had all the stuff with film deals going on. He

00:17:04.339 --> 00:17:06.440
was offered more. Yeah, I'll get back to you

00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.019
on that if I can think of anyone else. I mean,

00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.920
they do exist. They do. But generally, it is

00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.900
the people who are getting more the second time

00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:19.900
around were like lead titles the first time or

00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:22.740
lead debuts. Richard Swan got a bit more, didn't

00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:25.559
he? It was like a little bit more though. Like

00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.259
if you account for inflation, it might be less.

00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.180
And that, I mean, that's probably one of the

00:17:37.180 --> 00:17:42.619
examples that surprised me the most because his

00:17:42.619 --> 00:17:48.839
debut trilogy sold extremely well. He is very,

00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:52.329
as far as I can tell, He's very easy to work

00:17:52.329 --> 00:17:54.609
with from the publisher side because he hands

00:17:54.609 --> 00:17:58.210
in very clean drafts. He's very productive. He's

00:17:58.210 --> 00:18:01.089
a very good writer, in my opinion. And still,

00:18:01.269 --> 00:18:04.650
despite sales, despite all of those other intangibles,

00:18:04.650 --> 00:18:08.509
or I guess perhaps tangibles in some cases, didn't

00:18:08.509 --> 00:18:14.130
really result in a huge outcome. And hopefully

00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:17.569
he still has a huge outcome coming in the future.

00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.599
Well, he's diversifying, isn't he? So, I mean,

00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:24.279
that's the thing. So I think Andrea Stewart was

00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:26.019
also on here. She's very transparent about her

00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:28.380
finances. I think she had essentially the same

00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:30.920
deal again. Most people I know either did not

00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.960
get an option or did not get an increase if someone

00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.559
offered on their option. I think for Tor, the

00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:44.599
people a year before me and our year, I think

00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:49.839
I'm kind of... the only one of like the the actual

00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.059
debuts like that was in quotation marks not um

00:18:53.059 --> 00:18:55.539
not people who have had a self -pub history which

00:18:55.539 --> 00:18:58.880
i'll get to in a second who's maybe still standing

00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.259
i'm not including like nightfire and and tour

00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:04.160
.com i think ronnie's still in limbo uh i've

00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.160
not heard from him recently obviously your situation

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.680
is um kind of you can talk about that or not

00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:11.980
if you want i think other than that yeah people

00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:14.440
like nisha tooley and chuck tingle they're doing

00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.230
really well but they had a self -pub platform

00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.150
that they brought with them yeah um and basically

00:19:20.150 --> 00:19:23.609
just i'm always going to sound like i'm wailing

00:19:23.609 --> 00:19:25.569
on reddit but because i think reddit reflects

00:19:25.569 --> 00:19:27.470
a lot of author opinion and you know there's

00:19:27.470 --> 00:19:29.089
all i remember there being a lot of discussion

00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:31.650
on reddit about the things that we say and how

00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.130
there's a general sense that oh you know if you

00:19:34.130 --> 00:19:35.869
keep your head down keep working you can work

00:19:35.869 --> 00:19:39.369
your way up the advanced ladder and my difficulty

00:19:39.369 --> 00:19:41.450
that is it just feels like bullshit because i

00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:43.089
don't feel like that's happening for most people

00:19:43.089 --> 00:19:45.960
we know Maybe we just have shit friends. I don't

00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:52.680
know. Unlucky. I don't think that's the case.

00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:54.680
Cause I mean, we've, we've kind of tried to keep

00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:59.079
tabs on, on general outcomes, right. Of, of people

00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:05.059
who. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, even beyond friends.

00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:11.140
So like James Rollins, right. He debuted quote

00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:16.880
unquote with his. fantasy around when my debut

00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.799
came out my first book came out and obviously

00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.839
he came from uh writing thrillers where he's

00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.980
a new york times bestseller and i think his books

00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:30.819
did okay um but i don't think they hit it out

00:20:30.819 --> 00:20:33.960
of the park and i don't know i don't think i've

00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.619
seen an announcement at least for a follow -up

00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:40.559
after that original trilogy that he signed for

00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.480
That's a big name, an established writer who,

00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:49.720
as far as I can tell, might be on the way out

00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.200
of sci -fi and fantasy. I don't know. I should

00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.279
probably look him up and maybe edit his name

00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:00.700
out. Well, this is the thing that kind of fills

00:21:00.700 --> 00:21:04.220
me with quiet terror is there's a very real sense

00:21:04.220 --> 00:21:08.640
that what publishers are looking for is a bestseller

00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.259
not just a great bestseller that hits list and

00:21:12.259 --> 00:21:15.140
drops like a stone but a bestseller with good

00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:20.220
sell through hardback and paperback and all that

00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:22.660
buys you is the next day of execution you know

00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:25.900
to borrow richard's amazing phrase and for me

00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:28.480
it's just it feels a little bit like being the

00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:32.400
miller's daughter in rumble stiltzkin right where

00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:34.619
Someone has told the king that you can spend

00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:37.900
gold and you managed to spend gold one time.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.400
And so he comes back and is like, here's more

00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.519
straw, make more gold. And obviously, you know,

00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:43.279
the difference there is I'm choosing to be here

00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.240
and the miller's daughter isn't. And I choose

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.940
to be here because if you can spend enough gold,

00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:52.000
one day you get to be the pretty little publishing

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.400
princess and you can live safe for the rest of

00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:56.079
your life in the castle and not have to spend

00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.289
anything. Or rather, it doesn't matter what you

00:21:58.289 --> 00:22:00.109
spin or don't. But of course, the other difference

00:22:00.109 --> 00:22:01.690
is there's no Rumpelstiltskin to come and do

00:22:01.690 --> 00:22:03.950
it for me. So I have to actually spin this shit

00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:10.309
myself. But yeah, I feel more secure than most

00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:11.970
of our friends. I'm in a better position than

00:22:11.970 --> 00:22:13.509
a lot of people. And no, I'm very privileged

00:22:13.509 --> 00:22:16.289
in that way. And I still worry about it. It still

00:22:16.289 --> 00:22:18.769
keeps me up at night because I look at that next

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:21.329
book and think, everyone is assuming it's going

00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:23.890
to do 30 % worse than the first one. And I think

00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:26.670
it could do. you know if it doesn't get picked

00:22:26.670 --> 00:22:28.730
book of the month then it's the paperback will

00:22:28.730 --> 00:22:32.230
sell far worse than 30 i think you know it's

00:22:32.230 --> 00:22:34.289
not gotten all the different special yeah there's

00:22:34.289 --> 00:22:38.170
this it's you stress about it and you don't want

00:22:38.170 --> 00:22:41.710
to be that person who a year from now some other

00:22:41.710 --> 00:22:44.390
podcast is like oh yeah and then sunny dean fucking

00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:49.930
disappears oh my fucking god yeah i mean it does

00:22:49.930 --> 00:22:56.859
yeah and i don't recall exactly who was mentioned

00:22:56.859 --> 00:22:59.339
in this article but there was an article shared

00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:03.700
in our discord about how it was tony morrison

00:23:03.700 --> 00:23:07.019
yeah okay it was tony morrison that's right uh

00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:10.000
you know authors had a chance to to work up to

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.380
building themselves a career and uh you know

00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:18.980
developing a style and whatever else whereas

00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.180
now that's just not the case you don't get three

00:23:22.180 --> 00:23:27.519
or six or ten books And over 10 to 15 years to

00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:31.880
just keep taking shots, you get your first book

00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:34.319
basically. And if that book doesn't break out,

00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:38.299
you're fucked. It feels like that at the moment.

00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.680
I subscribed to the bookseller and I was following

00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:43.720
the Frankfurt Book Fair, which we talked about

00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.240
before this started, but because my agent is

00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:49.039
taking Girls a Thousand Phases to Frankfurt as

00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:54.029
like a hot list book. And I didn't go to Frankfurt

00:23:54.029 --> 00:23:57.910
with book eaters because American agencies, unless

00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:00.089
they're massive, don't tend to go as much, I

00:24:00.089 --> 00:24:02.670
think. But yeah, one of the articles there, this

00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:05.589
guy was saying, in Frankfurt this year, there

00:24:05.589 --> 00:24:09.589
are two genres, romanticism and non -romanticism.

00:24:10.470 --> 00:24:12.430
And you read stuff like that and you think, oh,

00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:15.009
fucking hell, only one genre seems to matter

00:24:15.009 --> 00:24:16.990
at a time. Everything has to be a breakout or

00:24:16.990 --> 00:24:18.769
it's dropped. And once it is a breakout, you

00:24:18.769 --> 00:24:22.680
have to keep being a breakout. You and I chatted

00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:25.200
this week about, hey, we should put together

00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.140
a little e -book or pamphlet or whatever with

00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:32.000
all the things we've learned or think we've learned

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.440
from doing these interviews. And I think one

00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:39.299
of the big ones really is editor influence. But

00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:44.640
especially as a debut, how in the hell are you

00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.740
supposed to know? what the internal politics

00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:57.539
of a publisher's editor group looks like. The

00:24:57.539 --> 00:25:00.500
best you can do, really, is take shots at editors

00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:04.779
who have produced very big sellers in the past,

00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.200
but then, I mean, this is what I'm sweating about

00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:13.539
right now with my historical fiction. historical

00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:16.359
fiction about the founding of Mormonism is on

00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:19.599
sub right now. And it's on sub with a whole bunch

00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:23.720
of big time editors, which is awesome. But it's

00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.759
also very difficult because they undoubtedly

00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:31.019
have very large submission piles that I have

00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:33.839
to stand out in. And they have very high standards

00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.279
of what books they're going to take. And even

00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:39.339
then, you still just don't know where it's going

00:25:39.339 --> 00:25:42.019
to land, even if one of them were to take it.

00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:43.880
You don't know where it's going to land on their

00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.640
priority list, which then determines where it

00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:51.259
lands on the publisher's priority list. So it's

00:25:51.259 --> 00:25:55.579
a very opaque industry. Feels hard to make informed

00:25:55.579 --> 00:26:01.839
choices that improve your ability. And it feels

00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:07.740
like writing an awesome book isn't enough. And

00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:10.180
especially writing an awesome book isn't enough.

00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:13.839
If it doesn't happen to be your debut somehow.

00:26:15.339 --> 00:26:18.339
And fall right in line with what people are looking

00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:22.509
to acquire. I think this response. capture something

00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:24.789
really well for me six books and i'm more worried

00:26:24.789 --> 00:26:27.289
than i've felt since i debuted i feel like i

00:26:27.289 --> 00:26:29.289
was steadily building momentum but i'm now being

00:26:29.289 --> 00:26:31.369
harmed by the sales track record that comes with

00:26:31.369 --> 00:26:33.990
starting with smaller publishers i'm moderately

00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:35.829
confident i'll secure some form of publishing

00:26:35.829 --> 00:26:38.450
deal but not remotely confident it will be equal

00:26:38.450 --> 00:26:40.650
or larger or at the equal or larger publishers

00:26:40.650 --> 00:26:42.650
than my current one which makes the continued

00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:45.029
workload and health slash family cost of publishing

00:26:45.029 --> 00:26:47.009
side of writing harder and harder to justify

00:26:47.009 --> 00:26:49.650
there are some positive responses in here but

00:26:49.650 --> 00:26:54.619
uh I guess I look at the ones that reflect how

00:26:54.619 --> 00:26:57.819
I'm feeling and the things that I worry about.

00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:00.559
I'm glad that some people have survived and are

00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.339
feeling a little bit better, but not everyone

00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:09.799
does. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. You know, one thing I've

00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:15.180
been thinking about is I'm actually quite glad.

00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:20.220
that I published under not my real name for my

00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:24.660
debut. And I mean, there's no harm in publishing

00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:26.720
under your real name and then going to a pseudonym,

00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.299
but it does leave, you know, more options open

00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:34.140
for me for future pseudonyms to try. We'll be

00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:36.380
hearing from Drake Scottford very soon. Drake

00:27:36.380 --> 00:27:44.720
Scottford? Maybe. Maybe. And, you know, I am

00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.200
never going to give up on the Scott Drakeford

00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.700
stuff either. So that name will die hard. But

00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:54.299
I mean, it's a real thing to consider, you know,

00:27:54.339 --> 00:27:58.119
like all these people submitting to publishers

00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:01.839
and then overjoyed that they get a deal, any

00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:06.920
deal. I mean, if you take anything from our podcast,

00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:11.269
just. buckle the fuck up and make contingency

00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:17.309
plans because the best way to make it in this

00:28:17.309 --> 00:28:22.029
industry is to make it from day one i think it's

00:28:22.029 --> 00:28:24.250
interesting that there is a spate of people talking

00:28:24.250 --> 00:28:27.309
about these situations and that there's a there

00:28:27.309 --> 00:28:31.369
is a real sense of anxiety that's worth looking

00:28:31.369 --> 00:28:34.819
at and not just ignoring i think yeah I think

00:28:34.819 --> 00:28:37.279
there is something there beyond just social media

00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:39.779
hysteria. A lot of people are feeling very insecure.

00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.779
The turnover is insane. I don't, I don't, I've

00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:45.759
not kept track of the US side so much, but like

00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.900
Harper had a crazy two years here. Simon and

00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:52.339
Shuster in the UK has also had a crazy couple

00:28:52.339 --> 00:28:53.940
of years. And what was the other one? Hodder

00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:57.460
in the UK. Oh my God. You mean editor turnover

00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:02.039
and staff? Editor and staff turnover, which then.

00:29:02.539 --> 00:29:04.759
feeds all the way down the line to authors um

00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:08.619
yeah orbit well i think on the u .s side are

00:29:08.619 --> 00:29:12.480
having an interesting time it's everywhere basically

00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.220
it's it's sort of every imprint at least in our

00:29:15.220 --> 00:29:18.460
genre um and i don't i don't know what i want

00:29:18.460 --> 00:29:22.619
from this discussion other than i deal with anxiety

00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:27.079
by like drawing everyone into my circle of anxious

00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.299
until they feel anxious too which is essentially

00:29:29.299 --> 00:29:37.180
what this podcast is for and i guess if there's

00:29:37.180 --> 00:29:40.619
merit in telling people that you know you've

00:29:40.619 --> 00:29:43.579
you know you're not alone or whatever or maybe

00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:47.279
we're just talking to the wind Where has that

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.819
guy gone? 10k sales threshold. I wonder if we

00:29:49.819 --> 00:29:52.480
have time to seg into that. Unless you've got

00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.160
anything else to add into this wall of gloom.

00:29:58.460 --> 00:30:00.420
But mostly I just wanted to highlight a range

00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:02.980
of experiences and be like, look, this is how

00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:04.619
it looks from where I'm stood. Maybe if you're

00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:06.420
on a different patch of ground, it's better.

00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.940
It's more hopeful. Maybe everything comes in

00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:10.859
waves and it just happens to be that because,

00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.140
you know, the same way a lot of my friends debuted

00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:16.000
within... a narrow bracket of years a lot of

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.519
us are facing tricky times at the same time maybe

00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.500
yeah i don't know yeah yeah i i mean i personally

00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:26.220
just think it's helpful for people to know what

00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:30.819
they're aiming for right and to know what that

00:30:30.819 --> 00:30:36.420
means for them going forward i mean there are

00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:40.160
publishers popping up now and i think more in

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.549
the uk and You know, the ones that come to mind

00:30:44.549 --> 00:30:46.690
are the ones that are associated with the subscription

00:30:46.690 --> 00:30:49.970
boxes. So Daphne with IC and then the Broken

00:30:49.970 --> 00:30:52.309
Binding with their subscriptions that I think

00:30:52.309 --> 00:31:00.390
fund a lot of excellent risk taking. But I think

00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:04.089
there are new models emerging where people who

00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:06.730
really care about books are building publishing

00:31:06.730 --> 00:31:11.640
companies that. can do pretty cool things. Right.

00:31:11.779 --> 00:31:15.519
And so we've mentioned it on the podcast before,

00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:23.279
but I offered my rights in the UK free of advance

00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.160
for a reason. And that's because I believed very

00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.180
deeply in these people that I offered it to,

00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:31.920
and there should be an announcement forthcoming.

00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.779
And because I'm essentially trying to Get another

00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:41.619
shot at relaunching, getting in, you know, maybe

00:31:41.619 --> 00:31:44.960
some editing that lines up with the story that

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.519
I am actually trying to tell. Getting the book

00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:56.599
in people's hands. That are hopefully closer

00:31:56.599 --> 00:31:59.119
to the target market, that kind of thing. So,

00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.759
I mean, we're not trying to preach a hard and

00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:06.809
fast rule of either you're a super lead or. you

00:32:06.809 --> 00:32:08.990
have no chance and there's nothing else you can

00:32:08.990 --> 00:32:11.250
do. And that's the only kind of deal you should

00:32:11.250 --> 00:32:17.529
take. However, I mean, what we're seeing is pretty

00:32:17.529 --> 00:32:21.049
stark. However, we're seeing that the, you know,

00:32:21.049 --> 00:32:24.309
the people I know personally who are doing okay

00:32:24.309 --> 00:32:28.230
or better than okay are disproportionately, disproportionately

00:32:28.230 --> 00:32:32.549
people who had a big advance out the gate. And

00:32:32.549 --> 00:32:37.680
by okay, I don't mean like, Cause there's this

00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:39.000
thing where people go, Oh, but you know, you

00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:41.539
can, you know, if you're sold making a few grand

00:32:41.539 --> 00:32:44.039
thousand grand from your books every year, that's

00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:46.440
okay. That's not what I mean. I just mean like

00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:51.140
they're in the industry at all. It's the, the

00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:54.539
issues is just, there's not, it's like you're

00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:56.519
not in the industry or you're doing really well.

00:32:56.599 --> 00:33:00.460
And there's very, very few people who are clinging

00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:03.099
onto that middle kind of. Yeah. That's a really

00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:05.680
good point actually, is that, you know, a lot

00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.650
of people, bring up oh well i don't mind if i

00:33:08.650 --> 00:33:11.910
just sign deal after deal where my book only

00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:14.349
gets me a ten thousand dollar advance or whatever

00:33:14.349 --> 00:33:17.869
right yeah and the thing is i don't see anybody

00:33:17.869 --> 00:33:21.430
doing that i other than very established authors

00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:27.509
um i don't see any recent debuts that do anything

00:33:27.509 --> 00:33:32.529
other than get to that level of repeat six -figure

00:33:32.529 --> 00:33:36.920
offers or they're just out so i see it at the

00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.500
indie press level uh and this is where i'm quite

00:33:39.500 --> 00:33:42.799
sad because we we did one interview with broken

00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:46.160
binding and one with um george sanderson who

00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:48.240
runs titan and we weren't able to air both of

00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.240
them in the end for various reasons that are

00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.880
not the faults of those those people but you

00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:56.339
know one of the things that that matt talked

00:33:56.339 --> 00:33:58.019
about broken bindings he thought that there would

00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:01.119
be an increase in smaller publishers and one

00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:06.069
of the things that i loved about titan I do know

00:34:06.069 --> 00:34:08.530
authors there who routinely get the same advance,

00:34:08.710 --> 00:34:12.369
not start over, who routinely get kind of steady

00:34:12.369 --> 00:34:14.489
advance levels and they're not making like mega

00:34:14.489 --> 00:34:16.389
bucks, but they are kind of like improving and

00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:19.610
building and growing in, in that way that authors

00:34:19.610 --> 00:34:21.889
kind of used to the bigger publishers where I

00:34:21.889 --> 00:34:25.130
think it, it's getting, it's getting harder to,

00:34:25.150 --> 00:34:29.550
to stay at the top. Yeah. But it's not. Can you

00:34:29.550 --> 00:34:35.289
think of a similar example in the US? Are there

00:34:35.289 --> 00:34:38.989
any publishers doing that in the US that you

00:34:38.989 --> 00:34:43.889
know of? I don't know the US as well. I'm sure

00:34:43.889 --> 00:34:48.389
there are some. I mean, Orbit itself has a functioning

00:34:48.389 --> 00:34:52.090
midlist still, although I hear that's changing

00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:54.309
a little bit, but I can't comment on that. No

00:34:54.309 --> 00:34:58.130
direct experience. I can't think of anybody who...

00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:01.530
debuted with a smaller deal with them and got

00:35:01.530 --> 00:35:04.230
another similar deal. It's all been six figures

00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:08.989
and up that have are still around. Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:11.730
And even then there's some six figure deals that

00:35:11.730 --> 00:35:14.510
disappeared into a black hole. Haven't heard

00:35:14.510 --> 00:35:15.969
from those authors in like a couple of years.

00:35:16.230 --> 00:35:25.110
Yep. Um, yeah. And I, uh, tower maybe. Um, Maybe,

00:35:25.170 --> 00:35:28.510
but I mean, they're the ones that did. Yeah,

00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:31.289
but that's an outlier. A lot of their books are

00:35:31.289 --> 00:35:34.030
smaller. I mean, you get it in other genres,

00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:37.829
definitely like romance and contemporary and

00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:41.010
Harlequin scholastic, places like that, which

00:35:41.010 --> 00:35:45.590
are not big five, but are big. They have mid

00:35:45.590 --> 00:35:49.730
lists of various types. Anyway, sorry, didn't

00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:53.159
mean to interrupt and derail. No, no, not at

00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:57.380
all. I do think, I will say some positives. So

00:35:57.380 --> 00:36:00.320
I think for me this time around, some things

00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.039
that are a lot easier is I am a lot better positioned

00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.320
to help my publisher in a way that I was not

00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:09.500
for book one. And I know we talked about your

00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:11.320
internal team having hype or not. And I would

00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:14.440
actually add a third category, which is they're

00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:16.780
excited, but they don't have the time and resources.

00:36:16.820 --> 00:36:19.340
You can do things for them. Sometimes that can

00:36:19.340 --> 00:36:22.809
really help, right? I, so like this time, you

00:36:22.809 --> 00:36:24.750
know, I didn't know anyone when I first got published.

00:36:24.829 --> 00:36:28.380
This time I was like. I have a spreadsheet and

00:36:28.380 --> 00:36:31.039
it's got like 50 names in it. And these are people

00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.199
you can ask for blurbs or send arcs to or reach

00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:36.300
out for. And they're all like categorized by

00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:38.760
country with contact details, how I know them

00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.539
or don't know them or why I think they're suitable.

00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:43.199
My publicists love that on both sides. Like,

00:36:43.260 --> 00:36:47.000
oh, cool. This is great. And we're all kind of

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:48.820
working out the doc. And that way we don't have

00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:50.599
to like waste time emailing each other. You can

00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:53.369
be like, okay, they've emailed. that person i've

00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:55.469
emailed this person you know we divvied up the

00:36:55.469 --> 00:36:57.869
labor you can see responses they come in when

00:36:57.869 --> 00:37:00.630
i get a blurb that's come in you know they check

00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:02.570
every so often and they kind of stick it on like

00:37:02.570 --> 00:37:05.329
the editorial section on amazon or whatever things

00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:09.309
like that i feel like because i know more what's

00:37:09.309 --> 00:37:12.130
going on i can anticipate things better yeah

00:37:12.130 --> 00:37:15.590
i can call on favors uh i have my own links with

00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:18.710
bookshops now stuff like that does make it easier

00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:21.860
And things that I wouldn't do as a debut, like

00:37:21.860 --> 00:37:24.579
I wouldn't go and set up an event. I am this

00:37:24.579 --> 00:37:27.260
time. I'm setting up my own launch and my own

00:37:27.260 --> 00:37:30.760
after party and actually having people who will

00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:32.940
attend. There are things you can do for yourself

00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:34.920
when you're not a debut that you cannot do as

00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.360
a debut. When you are a debut, you do need your

00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:40.400
publisher to like haul ass. So in some ways,

00:37:40.420 --> 00:37:42.880
the fact that they not as much ass as being hauled,

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:46.219
that sounded terrible for sophomore books because

00:37:46.219 --> 00:37:49.329
the debut buzz is just gone. you can kind of

00:37:49.329 --> 00:37:52.309
mediate it a bit maybe i don't know not not you're

00:37:52.309 --> 00:37:54.010
in a series though if you're in a series you're

00:37:54.010 --> 00:37:57.269
a bit fucked sorry you are a hundred percent

00:37:57.269 --> 00:38:00.469
yeah that should have put that caveat first because

00:38:00.469 --> 00:38:02.489
the problem is your series is really just a long

00:38:02.489 --> 00:38:05.429
continuation of book one it is whereas this feels

00:38:05.429 --> 00:38:08.789
like we are rebooting me because it's been four

00:38:08.789 --> 00:38:13.269
goddamn years since i've or will be oh fucking

00:38:13.269 --> 00:38:18.400
hell but i mean I keep saying this as well, but

00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:22.960
that initial deal of three standalones is so

00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:26.639
smart. So, so smart. Yeah, totally my idea. No,

00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:31.219
it wasn't. But it's a boon. I'm very glad I haven't

00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:35.039
been writing Devon Book 2 this whole time. This

00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:37.099
may be a good point to second to an article that

00:38:37.099 --> 00:38:40.960
we've talked about some, which is why publishing

00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.679
is becoming... like this a little bit and i think

00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.440
there's lots of different reasons but there's

00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:48.960
this great article from what's his name todd

00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:51.820
satterston we talked about having him on as a

00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:53.719
guest and we were too lazy to organize it decided

00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:55.820
we'd just talk about this article without him

00:38:55.820 --> 00:39:01.159
here and it's called the magic number um and

00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:03.460
i found it really really fascinating and actually

00:39:03.460 --> 00:39:08.179
really quite hopeful because basically he's he's

00:39:08.179 --> 00:39:12.630
saying that There is a kind of magic sales threshold,

00:39:12.809 --> 00:39:15.710
similar to when Dr. Cary Prey was saying there's

00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:17.650
like a magic marketing threshold that you have

00:39:17.650 --> 00:39:21.309
to hit for books to actually succeed. And he's

00:39:21.309 --> 00:39:23.409
saying there is a magic sales threshold that

00:39:23.409 --> 00:39:25.409
books have to hit within a certain timeframe

00:39:25.409 --> 00:39:29.389
to have a chance of success. And he was looking

00:39:29.389 --> 00:39:32.030
at nonfiction, but I found that I think it's

00:39:32.030 --> 00:39:35.250
broadly true for fiction as well. Yeah, I mean,

00:39:35.269 --> 00:39:38.150
I'll link to it in like our notes and stuff,

00:39:38.250 --> 00:39:41.900
but... Let's scroll down. So he used a data set

00:39:41.900 --> 00:39:46.039
of 6 ,775 titles. Again, business and self -help

00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:48.300
published between 2012, 2015. So it's quite old

00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:50.980
now. So there's this magic number that apparently

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:54.820
comes up in publishing of 10 ,000 copies. And

00:39:54.820 --> 00:39:57.599
the idea is that if you can get 10 ,000 copies

00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.619
into the marketplace, it reaches that point,

00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.199
which Richard Swan has talked about with it.

00:40:02.739 --> 00:40:05.880
He quoted his editor, James Long, the point where

00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:07.860
a book has a chance to grow its own legs and

00:40:07.860 --> 00:40:11.639
is not just relying on marketing push. And so

00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:13.719
one of the things he goes into is the fact that,

00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:16.099
you know, when a book has a big burst of sales

00:40:16.099 --> 00:40:18.199
at the start, but that's 95 % of all the copies

00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:20.280
it's ever going to sell, that indicates that

00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.179
the publisher was marketing well, but the book

00:40:22.179 --> 00:40:24.139
has not, for whatever reason, found its longevity,

00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:26.940
found its audience. It's not self -sustaining.

00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:28.719
It didn't get into that book orbit that they

00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:33.000
want where it's just circling. That long tail

00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.980
is a much better prediction. Long tail across

00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.119
six months or a year is a much better prediction

00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:41.519
of how a book is doing. Then that initial list

00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:44.920
hit. Yes. So he found if a book doesn't sell

00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:47.039
10 ,000 copies in its first year, there's only

00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.199
an 11 % chance that title will ever sell more

00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:53.539
than 10 ,000 copies. Only a 2 % chance sales

00:40:53.539 --> 00:40:56.119
will exceed 25 ,000 and it gets worse from there.

00:40:56.420 --> 00:40:58.659
Yeah. And this is like a lot of data. I realize

00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:00.340
you're like listening in a car and trying to

00:41:00.340 --> 00:41:04.059
pay attention to traffic. But if you can get

00:41:04.059 --> 00:41:06.780
in the 10 to 25K copy range for the first year,

00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:09.820
you've got a 42 % chance of selling more than

00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:12.320
25 ,000 copies. And essentially what he's saying

00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.440
is the higher you can get into any bracket in

00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.139
the first year, the more that predicts your long

00:41:17.139 --> 00:41:19.579
-term sales, which kind of makes sense, right?

00:41:19.659 --> 00:41:22.179
Like we know that like when Richard Osman releases

00:41:22.179 --> 00:41:25.820
a book and he sells 140 ,000 copies in his first

00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:28.699
week, we know that that means he's going to sell

00:41:28.699 --> 00:41:30.340
more. It's not like the next week he drops to

00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:34.409
zero. What he's saying is that there is a floor

00:41:34.409 --> 00:41:36.929
for this, which is you can't hit that 10k sales

00:41:36.929 --> 00:41:38.989
threshold in a year. The book is probably going

00:41:38.989 --> 00:41:42.889
to struggle long term and not explode and not

00:41:42.889 --> 00:41:47.849
pick up. But I found that hopeful because, firstly,

00:41:47.869 --> 00:41:51.369
to just have the number. Firstly, long tail matters.

00:41:51.510 --> 00:41:53.949
So, you know, continuing to promote a book after

00:41:53.949 --> 00:41:56.469
it's out. It doesn't have to all get that in

00:41:56.469 --> 00:41:58.050
the first week. It's not all about that. And

00:41:58.050 --> 00:42:00.750
secondly, it basically suggests that quality

00:42:00.750 --> 00:42:03.750
does make a difference. It might not in terms

00:42:03.750 --> 00:42:05.630
of like the advance you get, you might not get

00:42:05.630 --> 00:42:07.530
a flashy advance, but if there's enough support

00:42:07.530 --> 00:42:10.050
to get the book to the basic threshold, if it

00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:13.789
has staying power, it will stay. That said, it

00:42:13.789 --> 00:42:18.769
has to get to at least 10 ,000, if not 25 ,000

00:42:18.769 --> 00:42:24.670
in that first year, which I mean, that's attainable.

00:42:24.730 --> 00:42:27.809
That's a very attainable number in trad publishing.

00:42:28.469 --> 00:42:33.250
But as far as I know, It's mostly books that

00:42:33.250 --> 00:42:38.550
are debuting with six figure. Yes. Advances that

00:42:38.550 --> 00:42:41.150
are getting to those numbers. So, I mean, he

00:42:41.150 --> 00:42:43.190
went into more specific. So he said a book that

00:42:43.190 --> 00:42:46.510
sells consistently, for example, 300 copies a

00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:50.320
week for 50 weeks has. statistically is better

00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.940
positioned for long -term success versus a book

00:42:52.940 --> 00:42:55.940
that sells most of its 15 000 copies in the opening

00:42:55.940 --> 00:42:57.900
10 weeks so he's not even talking about crates

00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:00.860
but it really applies to crates yes that if most

00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:02.559
of your copies sell because you were in a crate

00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:06.389
and there's nothing else going on um and that's

00:43:06.389 --> 00:43:08.190
relevant to publishers because i think there

00:43:08.190 --> 00:43:10.050
is like a little bit of laziness going on in

00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:12.269
the uk this kind of sense that like oh the book

00:43:12.269 --> 00:43:13.789
got in the crates we don't have to do jack shit

00:43:13.789 --> 00:43:16.510
now we just collect those sales treat the book

00:43:16.510 --> 00:43:18.369
as finished a finished product where we made

00:43:18.369 --> 00:43:21.389
a fixed number of sales that we can bank on which

00:43:21.389 --> 00:43:23.570
we then don't factor into your success when offering

00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:25.969
you a new contract because we can't count on

00:43:25.969 --> 00:43:28.869
you getting that again which is which is wild

00:43:28.869 --> 00:43:30.409
right it's like oh we made all this money from

00:43:30.409 --> 00:43:31.849
your crate sales but we're going to assume that

00:43:31.849 --> 00:43:33.530
it won't happen you won't lightning won't strike

00:43:33.530 --> 00:43:37.170
twice so We're going to say, actually, if you

00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:39.289
discount crate sales, your sales sucked, even

00:43:39.289 --> 00:43:40.989
though that's the publisher's responsibility

00:43:40.989 --> 00:43:44.909
and all. Well, and I don't think it's any secret

00:43:44.909 --> 00:43:47.889
that even on the U .S. side that publishers will

00:43:47.889 --> 00:43:51.889
put a lot of effort into the lead up to a debut

00:43:51.889 --> 00:43:55.429
and maybe in the few weeks or if you're lucky,

00:43:55.550 --> 00:44:00.250
a few months after debut. But very rarely am

00:44:00.250 --> 00:44:04.340
I seeing at least. significant effort put in

00:44:04.340 --> 00:44:08.360
in those months you know three to twelve that

00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:11.820
this study suggests are actually the critical

00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:16.019
months for sustaining sales and he's not the

00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:18.719
only person to say that i've heard from uh the

00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:20.840
publicity lady that showed up in that reddit

00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:23.380
where she's saying it's ridiculous that actually

00:44:23.380 --> 00:44:26.639
i assume it's a she it could be he they said

00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:29.039
they that they think it's ridiculous that like

00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:34.869
the push stops you know three months after after

00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:37.250
the book comes out because actually there is

00:44:37.250 --> 00:44:40.250
momentum to be had yeah um and if the goal is

00:44:40.250 --> 00:44:42.789
to sell 10k copies consistently steadily in the

00:44:42.789 --> 00:44:45.190
first year that's the biggest help you can give

00:44:45.190 --> 00:44:48.789
books if we have the link if we have the link

00:44:48.789 --> 00:44:51.849
to that ama we should definitely put it in because

00:44:51.849 --> 00:44:55.610
that was so good yeah so back up people listening

00:44:55.610 --> 00:44:58.469
there was a kind of big five publicity person

00:44:58.469 --> 00:45:01.440
who came and did an ama marketing read it on

00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:03.880
marketing sorry yeah um and they had a lot of

00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.760
good answers one of which is like how do you

00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:10.659
drum up internal hype for your book and the answer

00:45:10.659 --> 00:45:12.880
is you don't you have an agent who puts the fear

00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:15.000
of fucking god into your editorial team so that

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.199
they are terrified every time an email arrives

00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.800
from them i thought that's hilarious they they

00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:25.159
were very in favor of mean agents and doesn't

00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:29.030
that run contrary to the be nice yeah stuff Or

00:45:29.030 --> 00:45:30.530
maybe you can be nice, but your agent better

00:45:30.530 --> 00:45:35.090
be a dick. Yeah, and better stay on top of stuff.

00:45:35.190 --> 00:45:37.969
And I mean, I wish I had that pulled up and had

00:45:37.969 --> 00:45:40.730
read through it right before. I should have been

00:45:40.730 --> 00:45:42.070
prepared for that. But the things that stick

00:45:42.070 --> 00:45:46.630
out to me were her giving very clear answers

00:45:46.630 --> 00:45:51.849
to things like, what kind of time are you giving

00:45:51.849 --> 00:45:55.730
to the lead titles in any given season versus

00:45:55.730 --> 00:46:00.139
everything else? She was saying that, you know,

00:46:00.139 --> 00:46:03.840
there are however many two or three lead titles

00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:05.980
in any given season that they're working on.

00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:09.800
And then potentially what up to a dozen or more

00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:14.239
other titles that they are covering for that

00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:18.179
same season. And they said straight up that something

00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:22.239
like 70 to 80 % of their time and effort and

00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:25.199
money and everything is going to those two or

00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.530
three lead titles in that season. And the remaining

00:46:28.530 --> 00:46:33.789
20 % of their effort slash money budget is going

00:46:33.789 --> 00:46:37.989
to that other bucket of, of books that, you know,

00:46:37.989 --> 00:46:40.329
hopefully they can find something to do for them,

00:46:40.389 --> 00:46:44.010
but often it's likely going to be just putting

00:46:44.010 --> 00:46:46.590
the ebook on net galley. That was the thing that

00:46:46.590 --> 00:46:48.809
I did notice when I was going through the two

00:46:48.809 --> 00:46:51.429
years of cover reveals that actually perhaps

00:46:51.429 --> 00:46:54.530
what was more relevant was not. the likes an

00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:57.190
individual post got but the repetition of likes

00:46:57.190 --> 00:46:59.650
for books which were expected to be big hitters

00:46:59.650 --> 00:47:01.849
so if you're a big hitter you get like the deal

00:47:01.849 --> 00:47:05.070
announcement or you know if if it's part of a

00:47:05.070 --> 00:47:06.829
bigger deal the the announcement that there will

00:47:06.829 --> 00:47:10.369
be a book and then you get like the cover reveal

00:47:10.369 --> 00:47:14.730
and then you get um you know a post when they

00:47:14.730 --> 00:47:17.480
have arcs coming out and you get like when there's

00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:20.239
a giveaway and then oh this book is out soon

00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.679
and oh book birthday the book is out now and

00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.519
oh don't forget this book is out now and yeah

00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:28.260
and now it's out in paperback right but if you're

00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:31.340
kind of mid list it's more like deal announcement

00:47:31.340 --> 00:47:33.780
for one deal you don't repeat it for subsequent

00:47:33.780 --> 00:47:37.800
books didn't seem like um cover reveal happy

00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:41.780
birthday book is out and that's kind of it so

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:48.730
um i think the it's it's not even sometimes the

00:47:48.730 --> 00:47:50.329
money i think she said in one of her comments

00:47:50.329 --> 00:47:53.010
it's about like the creativity that they're allowed

00:47:53.010 --> 00:47:59.909
to devote yeah um the the mind brain power that

00:47:59.909 --> 00:48:01.610
you're allowed to devote to certain books you've

00:48:01.610 --> 00:48:04.190
got to put that emphasis on on the bigger ones

00:48:04.190 --> 00:48:06.690
and thinking of the uh re -release i think this

00:48:06.690 --> 00:48:09.690
is a i know i know people aren't always keen

00:48:09.690 --> 00:48:11.769
on hardbacks but having that hardback paperback

00:48:11.769 --> 00:48:14.070
release means you do kind of stay in line the

00:48:14.070 --> 00:48:16.300
the this field of vision for your publisher that

00:48:16.300 --> 00:48:18.659
little bit longer because that is a thing the

00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:21.179
paperback coming out it just extends longevity

00:48:21.179 --> 00:48:25.519
of your book like you get two launches so all

00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:28.539
the all the best things that happened for my

00:48:28.539 --> 00:48:32.019
book really on the u .s side where the paperback

00:48:32.019 --> 00:48:34.659
all the different promos and things when it becomes

00:48:34.659 --> 00:48:36.940
more affordable book of the month picks and stuff

00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:40.519
so Yeah. Anyway, that was like a very hodgepodge

00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:43.519
kind of collection of different thoughts, gripes,

00:48:43.579 --> 00:48:50.099
some bright spots. If people aren't used to us

00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:53.559
rambling by now, they never will be. No, I mean,

00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:55.500
I kind of organize it when I do it later. But

00:48:55.500 --> 00:48:58.619
oh, you found it, the Alma thing. Yeah, we will

00:48:58.619 --> 00:49:01.380
link it because it was an interesting read. But

00:49:01.380 --> 00:49:03.159
that's just kind of where we are and what we're

00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:05.880
doing now that we're both trying to survive.

00:49:06.059 --> 00:49:09.449
Second book. to get to the second contract in

00:49:09.449 --> 00:49:11.809
your case on submission. If you can say that,

00:49:11.889 --> 00:49:16.489
I think in my case, I'm tracking everything that

00:49:16.489 --> 00:49:19.670
I can track about my book to see, not because

00:49:19.670 --> 00:49:23.210
I can change the outcome, but because documenting

00:49:23.210 --> 00:49:25.510
it, it doesn't, I was going to say it makes you

00:49:25.510 --> 00:49:27.849
feel better. That's a lie because I, because

00:49:27.849 --> 00:49:29.730
I feel compelled to do so. I feel compelled to

00:49:29.730 --> 00:49:31.610
document it and see what's different and what's

00:49:31.610 --> 00:49:34.920
the same. whether some of the things i think

00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:36.780
matter didn't matter which i didn't have a sense

00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:39.119
of last time around you know it might might release

00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.880
might do better than book eaters but have like

00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:44.760
terrible goodreads rating or something i don't

00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.679
know i don't think it will and and for what it's

00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:51.519
worth i do think it makes sense in your situation

00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:58.400
to be putting effort into maximizing a good first

00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:02.480
contract a very good first book that earned you

00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.239
a lot of goodwill and a lot of fans that makes

00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:10.340
a lot of sense and yeah in my case I'm straight

00:50:10.340 --> 00:50:16.980
up trying to pivot anywhere I can relaunches

00:50:16.980 --> 00:50:20.679
and I'm on set with historical fiction and the

00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:23.460
work in progress is one that could be sold as

00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:26.739
historical fiction or fantasy probably historical

00:50:26.739 --> 00:50:29.579
fantasy under a different name most likely But

00:50:29.579 --> 00:50:32.559
maybe the same name if this relaunch in the UK

00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:35.960
goes extraordinarily well. Different situations

00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:39.599
call for different decisions, for sure. I don't

00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:40.940
know if I have anything to add to that other

00:50:40.940 --> 00:50:44.219
than this episode is going to need a lot of unscrambling

00:50:44.219 --> 00:50:46.099
because I think there's a narrative thread that

00:50:46.099 --> 00:50:51.119
we were both all over the place. And if that's

00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:54.519
too much work, it can just be a hangout for us.

00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:57.599
That's fine. It doesn't have to be released necessarily.

00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:02.760
I think, I think, I don't know. I think I enjoy

00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:04.980
it. I think I no longer really care if like only

00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:07.480
five people listen or 50 ,000 people listen.

00:51:07.579 --> 00:51:11.360
I think. Yeah. I think in some ways all our worst

00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:13.559
content often ended up being our most popular

00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:17.239
worst as in least nuanced, you know, a lot, a

00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:19.880
lot of people fixated on carry price thing. And

00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.900
their takeaway from that is trad pub doesn't

00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:24.579
care if your book is garbage, as long as they

00:51:24.579 --> 00:51:27.099
market it, it will sell. And that's not really

00:51:27.099 --> 00:51:31.119
true. Yeah. because there is a base level of

00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:35.019
quality involved. For sure. I don't know. I'm

00:51:35.019 --> 00:51:38.219
very uncomfortable with this kind of inbuilt

00:51:38.219 --> 00:51:40.739
assumption, this insinuation that successful

00:51:40.739 --> 00:51:43.239
books are just sort of garbage by default until

00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:47.219
proven otherwise. I don't. Yeah. In fact, I want

00:51:47.219 --> 00:51:51.659
to mention something. So I stayed up until 3

00:51:51.659 --> 00:51:55.579
a .m. last night reading Kristen Hanna's The

00:51:55.579 --> 00:52:02.039
Women. Oh my God. She is so good. She is like

00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.960
my, she is like my favorite author, at least

00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:09.900
of the year. Like I've burned through. I bet

00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:12.579
I have a bunch of them behind me. Yep. The Nightingale,

00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:14.880
The Four Winds, The Great Alone. And I think

00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:19.280
it's very popular, especially in like publishing

00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:23.079
or maybe not publishing, maybe like aspiring

00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:27.239
publishing or heavy reader groups, right? Or

00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:31.809
circles. It's very easy to get into the habit

00:52:31.809 --> 00:52:35.489
of trying to find things wrong with people who

00:52:35.489 --> 00:52:38.590
have found more success or whatever. But I mean,

00:52:38.630 --> 00:52:44.050
the truth is there is a very real bar of quality

00:52:44.050 --> 00:52:49.170
that matters. And Kristen Hanna, you live like

00:52:49.170 --> 00:52:53.710
20 miles from me. I can probably see your house

00:52:53.710 --> 00:52:58.280
from mine. I am a huge fan. Then maybe cut that.

00:52:58.300 --> 00:53:00.739
That's an extremely creepy thing to say, but

00:53:00.739 --> 00:53:07.860
the women, very good book. Or keep it, whatever.

00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:10.000
We say weird stuff all the time. I'll just get

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:11.900
a - But then you reveal your location. I think

00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:16.440
just say, oh, I can say you're a huge fan. I'll

00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:22.059
get a restraining order in the mail. Yeah, it's

00:53:22.059 --> 00:53:23.440
a good book though. I don't know if you've read

00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:27.710
any of her stuff. I haven't. I don't even know

00:53:27.710 --> 00:53:31.449
what she writes. Is she historical? Yeah. So

00:53:31.449 --> 00:53:34.250
she writes, and I mean, they're super popular,

00:53:34.289 --> 00:53:40.949
so I'm not like finding a new fantastic author.

00:53:41.110 --> 00:53:43.309
Tons of people know about her, but she writes

00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:47.949
historical and her thing, at least, so she's

00:53:47.949 --> 00:53:50.150
written a whole bunch of books, but these ones

00:53:50.150 --> 00:53:51.889
that she's written in the last, I don't know,

00:53:51.909 --> 00:53:54.699
five, seven years have been. Very, very popular

00:53:54.699 --> 00:53:56.820
since the Nightingale, I think, was her first

00:53:56.820 --> 00:54:05.599
mega hit. And it's about a woman in France in

00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:09.780
the lead up and then during Nazi occupation in

00:54:09.780 --> 00:54:14.960
World War II and what those French freedom fighters

00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:18.639
went through, etc. But she puts these stories

00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:23.719
into some sort of a historical setup. but it's

00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:28.880
almost always a young woman who has some sort

00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:31.599
of major challenge, but is falling in love at

00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:36.000
the same time. And spoiler alert, most of, if

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.280
not all of the people that she falls in love

00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:42.219
with die or almost die in some fashion. And so

00:54:42.219 --> 00:54:45.179
they're not necessarily like happily ever after

00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:47.659
stories, but yeah, she's just a great writer.

00:54:47.739 --> 00:54:51.500
I mean. I get sucked into her books every time

00:54:51.500 --> 00:54:54.099
and I lose a lot of sleep to them. No, that's

00:54:54.099 --> 00:54:57.119
really nice to hear. And, you know, I struggled

00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:59.800
for a long time with that. I want to call it

00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:04.480
writer arrogance, the kind of turning your nose

00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:06.440
up at things, something just because it's popular,

00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:09.159
because I did actually grow up reading a lot

00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:14.340
of like really fucking weird niche books. I mean,

00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:18.920
this is like. in case anyone's like it has ever

00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:22.599
read you know the etch city by kj bishop uh you

00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:25.380
know that's that's like a kind of class cult

00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:28.820
classic new weird book that's 95 imagery five

00:55:28.820 --> 00:55:32.320
percent plot has head hopping it's experimental

00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:35.539
it's all kinds of stuff you know things books

00:55:35.539 --> 00:55:40.420
like that yeah and then i write i've been telling

00:55:40.420 --> 00:55:42.699
people it's like a joke when they ask oh i write

00:55:42.699 --> 00:55:45.099
commercial shite and i don't think i told you

00:55:45.099 --> 00:55:50.150
this story I went to watch as like an audience

00:55:50.150 --> 00:55:52.070
member, not a guest. I went to watch a panel

00:55:52.070 --> 00:55:54.469
that had Dave Ragg, if you remember him, and

00:55:54.469 --> 00:55:57.269
RJ Barker. Yeah, of course. And Adrian Tchaikovsky

00:55:57.269 --> 00:55:59.769
in it. And we went out to dinner afterwards and

00:55:59.769 --> 00:56:01.909
Adrian's wife, who's very nice, her name's Annie,

00:56:02.070 --> 00:56:03.369
and she asked me what kind of books I write.

00:56:03.469 --> 00:56:05.190
And I said, commercial shite. And instead of

00:56:05.190 --> 00:56:07.030
laughing, she just looked at me in like this

00:56:07.030 --> 00:56:08.809
kind of quiet horror with like, why would you

00:56:08.809 --> 00:56:11.489
say that about yourself? And it was actually

00:56:11.489 --> 00:56:13.889
this real moment where I was like, oh. fuck I

00:56:13.889 --> 00:56:16.409
feel really bad like maybe it's not really that

00:56:16.409 --> 00:56:19.110
funny to just like call myself shit all the time

00:56:19.110 --> 00:56:21.750
I'm gonna stop that so that won't be the last

00:56:21.750 --> 00:56:23.929
time I ever say that but yeah I write very commercial

00:56:23.929 --> 00:56:27.610
and I read very weird eclectic literary and that

00:56:27.610 --> 00:56:29.650
means I produce this writing that is not the

00:56:29.650 --> 00:56:32.269
kind of thing I normally read and I did really

00:56:32.269 --> 00:56:35.630
struggle with that for a long time um and I don't

00:56:35.630 --> 00:56:37.329
know if you've read it but Patrick Stewart had

00:56:37.329 --> 00:56:40.400
a memoir out a couple years ago And one of the

00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:42.679
themes in that is the fact that, you know, he

00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:45.119
comes from like this kind of literary Shakespearean

00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.480
background, but the thing he ends up being best

00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:49.679
known for is Star Trek, like fucking Star Trek.

00:56:50.059 --> 00:56:53.619
And how he can, there's this moment where he

00:56:53.619 --> 00:56:55.639
does really come to terms with it and the whole

00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:58.659
kind of, but it means something to people. And

00:56:58.659 --> 00:57:01.949
sometimes. you don't need a deeper meaning to

00:57:01.949 --> 00:57:04.090
art other than people enjoy it. And that it's

00:57:04.090 --> 00:57:06.590
a shared experience and how meaningful that became

00:57:06.590 --> 00:57:09.510
to him in a way that was like different. And

00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:12.849
I think I'm kind of in that place now where I

00:57:12.849 --> 00:57:14.690
can enjoy commercial fiction more reading it

00:57:14.690 --> 00:57:17.889
and writing it. And admit that, you know, I did

00:57:17.889 --> 00:57:20.070
really like Michael Crichton novels as well as

00:57:20.070 --> 00:57:24.250
KJ Bishop. Not Dan Brown though. That's, that's

00:57:24.250 --> 00:57:30.059
a step too far. um i haven't even tried his book

00:57:30.059 --> 00:57:34.000
i'm a little bit afraid to there's an interesting

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:37.579
review of it in the guardian where you can you

00:57:37.579 --> 00:57:40.760
feel like the the reviewer hated it that he was

00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:42.719
like basically paid to write a glowing review

00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.440
so it's like it's the most damning praise filled

00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:51.920
review you've ever read um i'll send you a link

00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:54.650
to it later but yeah Yeah, it's a good thing

00:57:54.650 --> 00:57:57.309
to hear nice things about books anyway. Yeah.

00:57:57.409 --> 00:57:59.210
I probably better let you go. It's nearly 10

00:57:59.210 --> 00:58:01.769
p .m. here, and I've got to go watch TV, which

00:58:01.769 --> 00:58:04.989
is obviously very important. I just spend my

00:58:04.989 --> 00:58:11.150
time. Well, it's always lovely getting to hang

00:58:11.150 --> 00:58:14.250
out and chat with you. Well, see you at JT's

00:58:14.250 --> 00:58:17.769
Jeremy's thing. Oh, yeah. When's that? Oh, shit.

00:58:18.230 --> 00:58:23.849
That's not today, right? Okay. You've been listening

00:58:23.849 --> 00:58:26.610
to the Publishing Radio Podcast with Sunny Dean

00:58:26.610 --> 00:58:30.110
and Scott Drakeford. Tune in next time for more

00:58:30.110 --> 00:58:32.469
in -depth discussion on everything publishing

00:58:32.469 --> 00:58:34.530
industry. See you later.