[00:00:01.720] - Sunyi Hi, I'm Sunyi Dean. [00:00:03.580] - Scott And I'm Scott Drakeford, and this is. [00:00:06.510] - Sunyi The publishing rodeo podcast. In 2022, we both launched debut novels in the same genre with the same publisher in the same year. But despite having very similar starts, our books, and subsequently, each of our careers went in very different directions. [00:00:21.850] - Scott That pattern repeats itself throughout the industry over and over. Why do some books succeed while others seem to be dead on arrival? [00:00:30.560] - Sunyi In this podcast, we aim to answer these questions and many more, along with how to build and maintain an author career. [00:00:38.400] - Scott Everyone signing a contract deserves to know what they're really signing up for. In an industry that loves its secrets, we'll be sharing real details from real people. We'll cover the gamut of life as a big five published author, from agents to publishing contracts, finances, and more. [00:00:59.580] - Sunyi Welcome to this week's publishing rodeo. This week we have Nisha Tuli. Have I said your name right? [00:01:05.900] - Nisha Tuil? Yeah, close. [00:01:07.860] - Sunyi Okay. Nisha Tuil. I've only seen it written down. We met ages ago in a discord. Actually, I'll cut this bit. It was called white male confidence, this discord. [00:01:19.680] - Nisha Scott, WMC. Yeah, WMC. [00:01:24.820] - Sunyi The ideas that you like bring white male confidence to. [00:01:29.260] - Nisha I actually have a rom com coming out next year, and it's in an office, rom com. and she works at a company called WMC. And I'm waiting for the day when someone asks me, what does that stand for? I'll be like, well, let me tell you, that's awesome. [00:01:46.740] - Sunyi I'm not there anymore. Cause increasingly, I felt like I reached this point where I left a bunch of my discords. Cause I felt like it was a bit awkward. But anyway, when I met Nisha, I think you were still querying. [00:01:56.890] - Nisha Yeah, that sounds about right. [00:01:58.920] - Sunyi And since then, like, everything has changed for you in a really positive way. And I kind of feel like what happened with your career was like a microcosm of what was going on with romantic in our genre. So, yeah, if you feel like introducing yourself and talking a bit about your writing journey and the kind of crazy story you had going into publication. [00:02:20.060] - Nisha All right, how long do you want me to go for? [00:02:23.440] - Scott As long as you want. [00:02:24.540] - Sunyi Yeah, yeah, as long as you want. [00:02:26.370] - Nisha Yeah. So I, like many people, started writing during the pandemic. Like, I worked professionally as a writer for many years. Like, I worked for magazines. I was working in marketing when the pandemic hit. I was working in tourism marketing when the pandemic hit. And I was at home for the, you know, my kids were at home. My husband wasn't traveling. Like, I had more time than I'd had in years and I was like, you've always wanted to write a book and you're not getting any younger. So I like, sat down that summer and I wrote the first book and like, I just, I don't know, a fire was lit under me and I like, I think I just finished book 16 recently. Like, it just did not stop for four solid years. I have not stopped. And I knew I wanted to. I thought I wanted to go trad first. So I like went through the whole queering thing and I got an agent pretty quickly. Like, I only queered for a few months the first time, which was nice. But then that book went on sub and it went on sub for 18 of the longest months of my life. [00:03:21.100] - Nisha And in the meantime, I kept writing books, as they tell you, keep writing, keep writing books. So I kept writing books. And that first one was actually a ya fantasy romance that I started with because I thought that's what I wanted to write first. And then I also wrote a rom.com which then also went on sub and then that one sat on sub for a year and I kind of just like got sick of waiting. And I could tell that trad publishing was not interested in acquiring the kind of books I wanted to write. Like, that romantic was taking off in indie and I could see that that was happening and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna try and go indie for also try indie. So that's when I published a novella and then I published one sort of standalone longer novel and then I published trial of the Sun Queen in 2022 in the fall and it started to get good traction. And then basically like about six months later, right before the second book came on, it blew up on TikTok. TikTok. And like everything changed in that moment. I was starting to get, yeah, like, I was selling more books than I ever thought I would ever sell in my entire life. [00:04:29.450] - Nisha And I was starting to get, like reached out from foreign publishers, a UK publisher reached out to me and I was like, okay. Like I had, I knew there was a, another author the year before who had had her series picked up for a seven figure deal. And I was like, in the back of my head I was, I was like, well, that's kind of like I still wanted the trad pub experience, but I wanted to go. I ended up. And in the meantime, my first book actually sold and my rom.com also sold at the end of 2021, both like within weeks of each other because when it rains, it pours. So that was a four book series and a three book deal for my rom coms. And then all of this started happening with Trial of the Sun Queen. And then I left my first agent because I just did not think she was the right person to take it to the next level. And it was very amicable and she was just like, I get. They actually, my agency refused to represent foreign rights for me. Like, they were happy to take the money for the ones that are. [00:05:29.590] - Nisha Even though they were literally getting contacted about me and I was getting, like, actual offers. They were just, like, refused to do anything beyond just, like, sitting there and taking the money from those contracts. And I was like, well, you are not getting any of this. You have done nothing to help me here. I refuse. It was crazy. It was out. They just, like, they thought it was indie books and it didn't count. And, like, why would they waste their time with, like, stupid stuff, right? Like, I think there was just like, this snobbery of old school publishing people who didn't, who did not see what was starting to happen on the indie side. Because I feel like it was sort of like, last year, it was really, like, the wave was starting to really crest. So I was just like, look, if you're not. And if you're not going to represent this stuff for me, like, I need to go find another agent. It was all very fine. So, yeah, and I was just saying to sundi that, like, I ended up querying for like, two and a half days next time. So it's so different when you, like, are coming with something published and it's like a completely different ballgame. [00:06:22.270] - Nisha So that was great. So then I, you know, ended up having lots of offers and I signed with Lauren at Lauren Spieler at Folio. And she has been great. And we got, we, she immediately understood, like, what I wanted and was like, hit the ground running. And we put that book on. We took about a few weeks to organize sort everything with all my other contracts. I learned a lot about publishing in those in that month, like, and how, because I had competition clauses and option clauses and my other two contracts and how we were going to work around all of that and then put the book on sub. It ended up going to auction, which was like, crazy and incredible, and then had a few offers and we ended up signing with forever, who was the same publisher who bought my rom coms earlier. And I was, I remember my agent was like, well, we're going to sub to your editor. And I'm like, but they don't really do fantasy. She's like, it's just polite. She's your editor. So we did, and it turned out they wanted to do fantasy because everybody wanted to get on the romantic train. [00:07:18.140] - Nisha So they did with me. And it actually worked out really nicely because they're all Hachette public. Like, they're all from Hachette. So they like the competition clauses and all that stuff. They don't worry about those. Like, they all like, figure it out themselves because it's not like they're not really competing against each other in the same way. So then, like, orbit UK picked up the UK rights and then Booker has the other one. So they all just sort of like work together now in ways. So yeah, they republished them at lightning speed. Like, I mean, we signed the contract in June. They had them out by August, proving that publishing can move fast when they want to, when they want to. And the third book is coming out actually in less than a month now. And then the fourth one will come out in November. So the series will be finished this year, which is also like lightning speed. And they're trying to kill me with edits, but it's fine. I'm almost there. [00:08:11.460] - Scott So just to recap, so I understand you had a couple other series contracted trad a rom.com and something else, but at the same time you self published this romantic trial of the Sun Queen. I don't know if it was the same title before, and then after it had been self published for a while, then you took it out with a new agent. [00:08:38.800] - Nisha When it started getting like, traction and I started getting like, reached out by publishers, I was like, and I knew that some publishers had picked up indie series that had done well. So that was sort of like where I was going with that. And we, yeah, we went back and forth and we're like, if it's not this, then, you know, there's more and more print only deals happening with indies too. Like, that was another avenue we were going to look at because I wanted the distribution, obviously. Like, I mean, that's the main purpose of working with a big publisher, is the distribution. And because, to be frank, I was in kindle Unlimited. I was making more money than I've ever made in my life, that it had to be a sweet enough deal to be like, yeah, okay, I'm going to hand these rights over to you now. And I mean, ultimately, maybe I would have made more by keeping them myself, but I wanted the trad pub experience. I wanted the distribution. I wanted all the like and now they're in every target in the United States. Like, I couldn't have done that on my own, right? [00:09:32.550] - Nisha Like that. Amazing to have my book in every target in the US. Right? So, I mean. [00:09:36.630] - Scott Yeah, that. I mean. Go ahead. Sorry, Sony. [00:09:38.820] - Sunyi Oh, I was gonna say, I think you're being very modest, Nisha. I mean, can. Can I mention your deal size? Because I know you've shared it publicly, but. Yeah, so, I mean, trial of the Sun Queen, it sold for seven figures in the states and six figures. Is that May? [00:09:52.070] - Nisha Yeah, there was a few six figure foreign deals. We're at up to, like, 15 countries, I think, now. Yeah. So it was like, beyond my. Well. And you believe it? [00:10:02.250] - Scott And you were still making more indie than you've made on those deals? [00:10:07.260] - Nisha Well, like, over time, like, yeah, ku can be pretty lucrative when you hit. You know, it's. The market is there. I mean, the readers are there. It can't, like, over the years, like, not right at that moment, I wasn't. But I think if we looked at it. But you trade off other things, right? Like, there's the trade off. I wanted to. To me, it felt like the opportunity to sort of establish myself and, you know, gain a new audience I wouldn't get because certain people don't read indie books. Like, the people who just casually go to the bookstore on the weekend aren't reading indie books. Right. They buy books in a bookstore, and that's. You can't get in front of them without being in that bookstore. [00:10:45.970] - Scott I'm assuming that because we're talking about this contract size, that your other contracts were not that same size. [00:10:52.610] - Nisha They're not even close. [00:10:54.010] - Sunyi Okay, take a few zeros off, Scott. Take a few zeros off. [00:10:57.880] - Nisha Not even close. [00:10:59.020] - Scott So I'm just trying to step through this. So I'm. I'm interested to hear about, you know, you mentioned taking off on TikTok and. And, you know, you. You saw romanticity becoming popular in indie circles, etcetera. So it seems like you. You went about this very strategically and you did some very smart things to get yourself in a position for this, you know, large deal. Do you have more to say there about what worked for you? Or are those going to remain trait secrets? [00:11:35.420] - Nisha No, no, not at all. I mean, I already loved romantic. Like, I didn't choose romantic because it was getting popular. Like, that's. I already. That's what I wanted to write. And actually, while I was on the sub. On sub, I realized I did not want to write ya. I wanted to write adults. Like, I wanted to go spicier. I wanted to write Spicier. I wanted to write more adult like you just like, you have way more freedom writing adult than you do. That's not to say I don't want to write ya, ever, but at the moment, I decided to switch over and, yeah, I mean, I think partly with strategy, like, you know, people will be like, oh, you're so lucky. You write in a genre that is popular. I'm like, yeah, but I'm also choosing to, like, there's lots of genres that are popular. Like, it was a choice to pursue romanticity at the moment that I did and recognize. Right. And recognizing where, like, I just, I don't know. It was a hunch that these books, like, you look at, like, sarah J. Maas and, like, jennifer army, like, they were so popular. [00:12:30.680] - Nisha There was just no way that eventually that wouldn't, like, you know, find its way onto the other side. Like, I just didn't seem possible to me that they could keep ignoring it forever because, you know, sometimes tramp can be slow on the uptake, but. And then ultimately, like, I think the book itself was where I, you know, people always like, how do you. I feel like I wanted to write something that was familiar but not the same. I have no problems writing to market, and I know some people like to scoff at that, but to me, that was part, I wrote a two market book consciously on purpose, following the tropes that I know people love in this genre, that I love in the genre because I read it heavily and I think it made as part of the difference. I think it felt familiar, but I think I gave it my own voice to it. I only write brown girls as my heroines, as my fmCs, which I think sort of sets me apart a little bit in the genre, especially amongst the top sellers and, you know, as with most genres, but. And I think that also sort of, I don't know, I think a lot of people, like, when I get messages from readers who are just like, I've never seen a book like this with someone who looks like me in this. [00:13:46.640] - Nisha And it's just like, I get so, like, caught up, choked up whenever I get those messages. But, yeah, and I will fully acknowledge that I was in the right place in the right time with the right thing, just when everyone. Right. Like, I knew that, but, like, I saw it happen to someone else and that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to try and do this, too. So. [00:14:05.100] - Scott Yeah, that's amazing. Yep. [00:14:07.660] - Sunyi No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And just as a very quick smile detour, I think, I think people get sniffy about the kind of right to market approach because they're misunderstanding that people come to publishing for different things. Like, there's a discussion, absolute, right? And I did a short article for some blog once on it, but it was about the different types of readers that you get. So you get broadly, like, what are they? Projectionist readers, escapist readers, and communion readers. So projectionists are like people who want to see themselves in the stories, like in video games, the hero fantasy. You want to pretend that you kind of are the hero. Escapists are more like people wanting to just forget about reality. And then communion readers are more like they're engaging with the text and they want to essentially have a conversation with the author through their art. And those are very rough groups, right. And people are usually mixed with the different ones. But I think authors are kind of in that camp as well. And that for me, like, I'm, I think I'm more like you. Like, for me, writing is about being a conversation, and I want to talk to as many people as possible. [00:15:10.780] - Sunyi Possible. And that means writing a book that's accessible to many people. And I just, I don't have it in me to, like, be ashamed of that anymore because I think, I think, like, if that's your goal, like, if, then that is how you go about it. If your goal is like, I want to make my art and expression of myself, like, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But it does mean that you're, you know, you're prioritizing more things about self expression over conversation. That makes sense. So anyway, and I think it's sort. [00:15:40.300] - Nisha Of like, you have to be realistic. Like, if you're out there going, I'm writing this book that no one's going to get and no one's going to understand. It's so weird and so out there. And then they turn around and be like, why is no one buying my book? Well, you can't have it both ways, right? Like, you just, no. [00:15:53.510] - Sunyi And people do want to buy those, I think. I think everyone wants to be the weird little writer who's very weird, but everyone also simultaneously loves them. And it's like, well, these cut. [00:16:00.930] - Nisha These things are kind of, and, like, I think ultimately readers say they want something different, but I don't think most of them actually do. Like, I think ultimately we like what we're comfortable with and we gravitate to the same kinds of things because that's what we like and that's what we love. And it's hard to get people to break out of that. Yeah. [00:16:20.340] - Sunyi When I say liars, I should say that when readers say they want something different, they mean different in, like, they don't think of different the way writers think of different. They like a different variation. Yeah. [00:16:32.010] - Nisha And I can contrast this very vividly with my other series which is actually based on south asian world building. Completely. Like, it's very different. Like, trial of the Sun Queen has a completely european style esthetic. Despite the fact that I have a brown girl in the. In the heroine role, I didn't care. I'm not trying to be historically accurate or anything like that. But my other series has south asian building. So I think the book feels quite different compared to what a lot of us out there. But it's definitely a harder sell. Like, it has been much harder sell for people because it doesn't have vampires or fae or any of the usual things like that people are used to, you know, and therefore it has. It's harder to pitch, it's harder to market and it is different, but it doesn't do as well as the other one because I think it's sometimes maybe too different. I don't know. Like, it's not as familiar for people. And people are like, oh, it was confusing because I use south asian terms for things. Well, and the names. But you all are fine with Daenerys Targaryen, her seven names until it's attached to brown people. [00:17:32.290] - Nisha Right. So it's just like, yeah, so what. [00:17:37.190] - Sunyi Were you doing on TikTok? You know, you mentioned, like, you took off on TikTok. Is that something you were working towards or was it like a kind of Olivia Blake happy accident? [00:17:46.130] - Nisha Well, it was really someone else's video wasn't necessary. I think I was active on TikTok for a while. You know, I had a couple videos do fairly well there. But it was really someone else else's video that made the big difference, which is not surprising. Right? Like, to me, it was sort of, I was trying to get the book into as many hands as possible. Whether that was through advertising, whether that was through TikTok, whether that was just giving out arcs. Like, it was just. I just felt like as long as I could hit enough people that, like, someone was gonna like this. So it was sort of my. I did a. I did actually a big pr campaign with a book box. Like, I sent out books, physical books to a bunch of influencers. I worked with a company who did that. And that was really to what moved the needle for me. Like, it hit the right person, a few of the right people who then, you know, had big audiences and who liked it, enjoyed it. And people obviously trust the opinions of others more so than they do the author themselves, saying, this book is great. [00:18:39.690] - Nisha Read this book. But. Yep. Yeah. And I mean, I still, I'm on TikTok. I have such a love hate relationship with it. I actually have an assistant who does all of my videos now because I feel like I can't not do it. So I just make it as painless for myself as possible by going on there very infrequently. At this point, I prefer Instagram. At this point, I feel I have a more cohesive audience on Instagram. I feel like I can talk to my audience on Instagram more. And that's where I spend most of my social media effort these days. [00:19:10.890] - Scott Well, this is something that we might want to edit out just for boring purposes. But I'm actually curious to know what company did those book boxes for you because that's really cool. And I'm interested to hear, like, how many arcs you sent out, what advertising you did, etcetera, because that's a little bit foreign to me. [00:19:33.900] - Nisha Yeah, we don't have to edit out. The company's called Nerdfam, and the owner is Rachel sky. And she's become very popular with the genre now. Like, she gets results, which a lot of people in indie publishing are there just to take your money. And you have to be very careful about who you give it to because most people cannot deliver on the promises. So we did 50 physical boxes with a hardcover and some art in it. And then they actually got an envelope that had a QR code with a digital art to the second book because it was about to release and it was art inside the envelope that was sort of a spoiler for the book. So it said you can't open this until you read the book. And people really liked that. Like, they showed that constantly. So that was great. And then we actually had a couple hundred more people sign up for them. So we ended up giving digital arts to all of them. So that was, I don't know, probably like 300 something together. When all was said and done. And then advertising, I dabbled in Amazon ads, which worked quite well for me. [00:20:32.430] - Nisha And I dabbled in Facebook ads, which did nothing. I just burned a whole lot of money from me. So that was, it's interesting how different. I guess that's not where my audience is. I think my audience tends a little bit younger. I don't think they're using Facebook anymore. And Amazon ads are great because like, people are there to buy books and, you know, versus Facebook or another platform, they're not necessarily there to buy a book. You didn't have to convince them they want a book and then get them over to Amazon, etc, etcetera. So I took a course on Amazon ads and I felt that those did pretty well for me. I mean, I canceled. I stopped doing all of that once the publisher picked it up because that was not my job anymore. So that was actually really nice because like that takes a lot of, it's a lot of time to monitor them and like adjust them and tweak them. And obviously it costs lots of money. And so like, I mean, that was another aspect of like, moving to a trad publisher was like, now I'm not responsible solely for advertising. Like, I'd still do my part, I still send out my newsletters, I still do my social media, but I'm not doing ads and that kind of thing. [00:21:32.830] - Nisha And those were sort of the main things that I did in terms of paid and, you know, and promotional type things. [00:21:40.820] - Scott Yeah. I wondered because a mutual friend of ours, Shailen, was telling us, my friend. [00:21:48.770] - Nisha Too. [00:21:51.850] - Scott She'S, I think she's friends with everybody because she's freaking awesome. It's hard to imagine somebody not liking her. But she mentioned a few months ago, or, God, I don't remember when it is. My brain doesn't keep track of time anymore, but that Amazon ads were the way to go. Or at the very least, they were very popular in romance and romantic indie circles. And that some of the big releases will spend like thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars in ads on just that first launch week to get their book up into the top 50, top 20, whatever it is that people pay attention to just to kind of like establish it as a book that people should be watching. Have you seen much of that? [00:22:42.950] - Nisha Yeah, I mean, getting in the top in the Amazon algorithm is key in that first like 90 days when you publish. I mean, people always focus on number of reviews, but like, Amazon doesn't care how many reviews they have, they care how many books you sell. Like, that's like, that's who the algorithm is showing is how when people are buying the book, not reviewing the book. And I did not spend that kind of money because I didn't end up sort of needing to do that at the time of my last, that release. But yeah, it's something I would definitely consider. Like, people get scared of spending lots of money. I get that. But you don't do it all in the first day. You work your way up to it. And when you're making, you know, six figures a month, you can spend $10,000 on ad. That's. Yeah, that's reasonable, right? Like, that's. I didn't. I ended up. I ended up calculating it because I was curious. I spent 10% of what I was making on ads when. At that point, like, that's was only 10%. Like, make, you know, the extra bit. Like, that's well, well worth it to me. [00:23:41.850] - Scott Like, that's an incredible roi. [00:23:44.680] - Nisha Yeah, yeah. I mean, it helped. The TikTok factor helped. [00:23:47.920] - Scott Sure. [00:23:48.340] - Nisha Absolutely. And the fact that, like, the problem with marketing and books is you can't really gage. There's so much organic traffic and you are not the end conversion. Like, you don't know which thing click. You know, they come to Amazon, they don't come to your website unless you're selling direct. And so it's hard to see, like, what specific thing was the driving factor. But because at that point, I had so much organic stuff coming from user content, it sort of all just worked together really well. [00:24:19.840] - Scott Sure. Yeah, totally makes sense. [00:24:23.230] - Sunyi I've got a question. You don't have to answer it, but I was just curious. Oh, you know, what were you making as an indie, if that's okay to ask? [00:24:32.310] - Nisha When I. So my big month, when my. In April of last, was it last year before when my second book came out, like that month, I made well over 100,000, like well into six figures. Okay. And that was a release month, right? Like, that's, of course, bumps it up. And I only had two books in the series at that point. And of course, the part of the reason you write longer series is in India is because each one, each book bumps it up a little bit more. So when the third one comes out, my publisher actually kept them in Kindle unlimited because that's where so many people found them. And they, of course, are not limited to just Amazon. Like, indies are. So that's actually another benefit of going with the publisher because they can put them everywhere versus indies are limited only to Amazon. If you're in Ku, like, you're not allowed to publish it an ebook anywhere else, which is. And point of contention, but yeah, no, it was. It's. I think you'd be shocked at how much some of those top people in the top 100 of Amazon are making. Like. [00:25:33.410] - Sunyi So did you. I mean, so Trad was really slow to get on this train. I mean, they're all aboard the round to see train now. Like, I'm hearing from debut friends at, you know, like the big debut slack groups with like four people who aren't romantic. But what. Why do you think it took them so long? Do you think there was any particular thing that kicked it off? Because it felt like, it felt like 1 minute we were all talking about how it was a huge genre in indie and Trad was just oblivious to it and the next minute it felt like everybody was acquiring it. [00:26:03.570] - Nisha I don't know why. I feel like Trad takes forever with everything. They just sort of seem slow in the market. I think they needed the proof of success. And then when they saw they were already behind, that's when they, like, started going to indies and were like, well, we'll take your book and we'll give you money for it. And right, like, that way they didn't have to acquire and edit and do all of the stuff. They already knew that these books were being read by people. All they had to do was like, slap their logo on it. Like, they didn't even change my covers. Like, nothing. Like, I already had all four covers. Like, none of that got changed. They didn't even edit those. They did not even do a change, one single word. They just like, repackaged them with their logo and put them out, right. So I think there's sort of that lower barrier to entry for them there. Now. I feel like, I know my agent was saying, she's like, I feel like the interest in that is slowing down a little bit only because they come with these big price tags and they can only do that so much. [00:26:57.590] - Nisha And that the future, like, I think is that indie is getting trad deals for new books who want to, you know, have the trad experience but don't want to give up their, you know, their indie stuff and want to keep those royalties coming and that kind of stuff. So I imagine that that will be the future. And I know lots of people are getting reached out to by publishers who have indie series and are like, I like your voice and we would love to hear something new from you. And people are always like, I would never go trad. But then Trad comes knocking and they always change their tune because it's nice, it's validating, right? It is. [00:27:30.330] - Sunyi Like, it is. And I think, I don't know, I always have mixed feelings on it because on the one hand, I feel like it's a good situation to be in where the author has the kind of power in that balance, that dynamic. But the other, it is part of me that's like, the publishers are just like, I know you're training publishers to get used to the fact they don't have to do anything, right? [00:27:54.630] - Nisha And people have said that they're like, well, you did all the work. And then they just swooped in and like, yeah, but I find that rhetoric a little bit annoying because, like, I, I did consider all the ass. Like, I didn't just do this blindly, right? Like, I, I considered all the pros and cons. And I think in general, if anyone is writing a book and they want to know about publishing, what is your goal? What do you want? That, to me, is the first question everyone should ask themselves. Do you just want to write a book that gets published and a few people read it? Do you want to work full time? Do you want to make a million dollars? What is your goal? Everything is going to inform how you approach what you write and how you publish, depending on what it is you want from it. Yeah, and, like, I wanted a big trad deal. Like, that was, that was when I started. I wanted a big trad deal. So, like, other people might look at me and be like, you're an idiot for giving up your rights to this publisher. But that's what I wanted. [00:28:48.180] - Nisha Like, it doesn't. I know. I know what I gave up and I know what I got in exchange for those things. So it is a little bit. And what I do feel for is the people sitting in the slush pile who are not getting acknowledged because that publisher went to an already successful indie author and was like, hey, we have. I definitely feel for those people. But, I mean, it's still mostly people we know. Like, this is still a small percentage of the books that are getting published. Like, this is not overtaking publishing or anything. [00:29:17.740] - Sunyi No, I mean, do you think, because I feel like romanticity is here to stay, do you think that it will kind of stay or wax or wane or change in the coming years? [00:29:26.660] - Nisha I mean, I hope it stays forever. [00:29:28.490] - Sunyi Yeah. [00:29:28.910] - Nisha But I do. I think it's got a lot of legs. I mean, the fourth wing effect. I mean, people are just discovering it now because of fourth wing. Like, it's bigger than it's ever been. Like, last year, some people never had heard of romanticity until they picked up fourth wing, and now they're like, and like, I always say, like, no one ever read a book and was like, I love that. I never want to read anything like it again. [00:29:49.350] - Sunyi Right. [00:29:49.540] - Nisha Like, the minute you love something, you start looking for more things like it. Right. So I think this is just the beginning of the way, personally. I hope so. I hope it lasts like 20 more years. [00:29:58.560] - Sunyi But yeah, it feels like the. It feels like when ya kind of broke out because, you know, ya wasn't a thing when we were young people, right. Long ago, but it kind of exploded and then suddenly ya was this huge thing. And for a while it did have like a bit of a bubble. It did kind of. Yeah, I guess deflate a bit. But it's not going away. It's just slightly less. [00:30:21.420] - Nisha There may be a bit of a course correct in the same way. Right. Where we like, had this thing, but it's not gonna go. Just why is not going away and why fantasy is not going away. Like, it's just as popular as it's always been. Right? So. Yeah, yeah. And I think, like, romantic is like special because it's such a merging of two genres that people are really passionate about. [00:30:43.790] - Scott Yeah. [00:30:44.130] - Nisha And are like super into it. And then you combine like a world ending romance with like, world ending stakes and it all cut. Like. I just. That's why I love it. It's just like there's so much going on. [00:30:55.720] - Scott Well, it does feel. It does feel like more of a category like ya than it does a fad, like, you know. [00:31:03.500] - Nisha Right. [00:31:03.910] - Scott Retellings or vampires or whatever. Whatever other shit publishing jumps on now and then. [00:31:10.410] - Nisha I feel like my prediction is dark. Romance is going to be the thing because my publisher also just bought a stalker romance, an indie stalker romance for seven figures. And I think that's where they're going next because that is also really big in indie. I think that's where we're going next. Stalker romance for seven figures. [00:31:28.350] - Scott Good Lord. I mean, I guess you was very popular, right? I didn't read it, but I watched. [00:31:33.630] - Nisha Well, that wasn't a romance. Cause it doesn't have a happy ending. But, yeah, like, haunting. Adeline is the big one. Like it's sold millions of copies. Like it's telling you it's the next thing. [00:31:44.430] - Sunyi Clay's gonna be so happy to hear that. [00:31:46.510] - Nisha Yeah. [00:31:46.940] - Scott Right. I guess Phantom of the Opera. I don't know. I don't actually remember how that ends. [00:31:53.660] - Sunyi I think I know that's tragic. [00:31:56.390] - Nisha That's a tragic story that does not follow because the morally great, the morally black one does not get the girl. So that doesn't qualify either. [00:32:04.380] - Sunyi Yeah. Phantom of the Opera is essentially a retelling of the hunchback in Notre Dame, but with music. So it has the same plot line. [00:32:10.940] - Scott Yeah, yeah. Look, I mean, no shade to romance, romantic, et cetera, but I think for me personally, stalker romance is probably one step over the line. [00:32:23.620] - Nisha Hey, everyone has. [00:32:28.230] - Sunyi Sorry, Scott, I'm saving you from fans, right? You can't yuck someone else's yum. [00:32:34.490] - Nisha They will crucify you. [00:32:36.270] - Scott Yeah, that's fine. Trust me. [00:32:38.500] - Nisha I'm already planning my pen name for it. I. [00:32:42.670] - Scott Love that. I love that so much. [00:32:47.750] - Nisha Because I. [00:32:48.250] - Sunyi You know, fans are very passionate fantasy and fans, passionate romance. Imagine when they clap. [00:32:53.390] - Nisha They are. They're like, so I was just at a polycon a week and a half ago in DC, like, which is Jennifer Army Trout's big event. This is my first time doing a big signing like that. And the people like, wow, that was intense. Like, people are so, like, wonderful. Like, it was amazing. Like, it was very good for the ego, I will say that. But there was a lot of extroverting for this introvert and I was like, my whole body was aching by the end of the day. But people were so excited. Like, they were just so genuinely, like, thrilled to see you and thrilled to meet you and, like, get a signature and, like, take a picture. Like, it was just, it was so much fun and, yeah, I get so many impassioned messages and, like, yeah, people are really, really into it. [00:33:34.270] - Sunyi That really scares me. Is that terrible to say? Like, I was watching Victoria Aveyard at her event because I did, like, the interview for her and she had people, like, ask her to name their unborn child, like, in the signing queue and just were like, oh, can you give us, can you write this phrase and your signature on this piece of paper? Because then they're going to go and get her. Her handwriting, like, tattooed on them. And I was just like, holy shit. [00:33:55.050] - Nisha Oh, my goodness. [00:33:55.810] - Sunyi Breakdown from other people. [00:33:58.570] - Nisha I love it. I love interacting with my readers. I'm actually like, I love that part. And most people are really nice, obviously, there's always people who will tag you in mean, reviews, but the block button has become my friend and I don't feel bad about that anymore. But I love it. I think it's so much fun. I have a few more signings this year and. [00:34:18.290] - Sunyi Yeah, I wish you all the signing, joy. Yeah, I think that's, that's the point. Watching her where I thought, I really am very hermit y, actually. [00:34:31.730] - Nisha Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us are introverts and it's sort of, like, out of our comfort zone, but as long as I don't have to, like, make like make friends or like small talk. Like as long as I have to network with people I don't know, I'm fine. [00:34:47.610] - Sunyi Yeah. Just a really quick question on scheduling. So you, are you having all four books released in a year? Because that's very unusual for trad, isn't it? [00:34:54.530] - Scott Yeah. [00:34:55.240] - Nisha Yeah. Well, so the first two, so the first two were already published in and then they, when they took, acquired them, it was like May of last year and the contracts were signed like in June and then they republished them in August of last year. And then I was writing the third book at the time and I handed that in earlier this year. And yeah, they had planned, they're publishing that one in June, on June 4. So less than a month from now. And now currently I'm just, I just handed in the fourth book like last week. And we just have copy edits left to do with the plan of getting it out in November. It is super fast. Like they, I don't know, they just, they were like we don't want to lose the momentum everyone's excited about right now. We want to get it out. We don't. Which I've, I think in previous deals like this there had been that where there was a big lag and then sort of the intro peters out because it's just like, well now people are waiting even like it's been, it'll be over a year between the second and third book which for indie is quite a long time. [00:35:58.390] - Nisha You know, for trad that's normal. But I mean in fact that's cool quick for Trad, but I wish it hadn't taken so long. I like I first, they were going to do it earlier in the year when I had first originally planned to publish the third book. But I am glad the last one is coming quickly and that does not. And that it will just be done because I've loved the series. I cried a hundred times writing the last book, but I'm also ready to move on to the next thing. [00:36:25.360] - Sunyi Yeah. So what, what is coming next? If I can ask that really quickly. [00:36:28.440] - Nisha Yeah, so I mean I have my other series as well. The last two books will come out in October and early next year. And then my rom.com is the next sort of official thing next summer. So we just started talking about the COVID for that. Like sometimes I completely forget that I've got a whole series of rom coms coming up. We recently are like we got to start talking about the COVID I was like, okay, great. So that one's called not suitable for work. And, yeah, it's a workplace romance based on, like, that she's an engineer because that's what I was once upon a time. So there's some real life experiences of being a woman of color working in the. In a very male dominant field. So that was really fun. I actually personally think it's still my best book, so I'm super excited for people to read it. Although I wrote it so long ago now that I feel like I'm gonna read it and be like, oh, my God, this whole thing needs to be rewritten. But Scott. [00:37:16.160] - Sunyi Scott's an engineer. Was once upon a time. [00:37:18.180] - Nisha Oh, yeah, I feel like that's a. I was recovering engineers and the author in the author. [00:37:23.350] - Scott Yeah, yeah. What kind of engineering did you do? [00:37:26.250] - Nisha I did chemical engineering, and I worked for a cement and concrete company, which is how I ended up living in Winnipeg, where I am now. And I was like, winnipeg? Sort of a small little town city in the middle of Canada where there's nothing around. I was like, you want me to move? Where? Then I met my husband, and then we had some kids, and now it's been like, I don't know, 1617 years. So, yeah, I guess this is home now. [00:37:53.670] - Scott That's awesome. [00:37:57.670] - Sunyi If you don't have further questions, Scott. I was going to say, this is the part of the podcast where I usually ask the guests either basically for, like, a pet peeve or the smallest hill you'd be willing to die on. So, stuff that's featured has been like, JT telling us that he thinks Calvin should be the most common unit, you know, of temperature measurement, or Katrina hero, basically saying that she thinks that, you know, no amount of coffee is too much. Or if I ever do it, I'll one day expound on why Lasagna should be made of pancakes and not pasta, that kind of thing. [00:38:38.270] - Nisha So I feel like now I want to know what that's about. What is the smallest hill I will die on? Oh, my God. Okay. Can it be writing related? Because I remember one time, of course, I saw a video from some guy who was insisting that you should not describe what people look like in their books. And I was like, what? Especially when you're writing romance, like, the whole point of the physical attraction is the first thing, like, give me a break. And I remember I tweeted something about that, and it ended up getting, like, thousands of whatever people were like, that's crazy. And the other one, too, in the similar vein, is that love interest should never have long hair, and I will die on that. Hill. Yeah. They were like, stop making your men with long hair. I'm like, I will make them stop making them with long hair. When you cut off my left arm. [00:39:33.400] - Sunyi I think some of that comes from litfic. The whole, oh, I didn't describe my character. I just described the color of her hat once, and it's white. Okay. [00:39:41.000] - Nisha And I feel like that's a little problematic, too, when we are talking about diversity in publishing. Right. And that if you don't describe them, then people will assume they're white. That's what they will assume. Even if you are a person of color, you will often assume they are white, because that is how we've been conditioned to do so. So if you don't say it, then we are just all defaulting to a certain thing over and over and over again. [00:40:06.060] - Scott Yeah. [00:40:06.750] - Sunyi And I'm just really nosy. And I want to know. [00:40:08.690] - Nisha It looks like I want to know. I want to know everything. I love describing clothing like that. To me, I love. I love describing clothing. I've always been big into fashion, and, like. And I feel very much like there was a sort of a. Used to be a kind of thing where the heroine always had to eschew anything feminine. Like, she. You know, she couldn't wear makeup or fancy. Like, she had to only be, like, against anything too feminine to make. Be a good character. And I hated that. So, like, I very much have been conscious about, like, if she doesn't like dresses, it's not because she thinks those are dumb. And for girls is, you know, for some other. For a good reason. Like, in one, she's like, she just feels like she lived in prison and she doesn't deserve the pretty dresses. Right. Like, an actual reason, not just that female. That things that women enjoy are not important. Like, you can wield a sword and be a badass and also wear pretty dresses. Like, I will die on that. And here we go. There's another hill I will die on. [00:41:02.180] - Sunyi No, that's fine. There are many. [00:41:04.740] - Scott You can just keep going if you want. [00:41:07.700] - Nisha I probably got a lot of them. [00:41:14.500] - Sunyi No, thank you. That was amazing. And can you also plug yourself as well, just so people know where to find you? Where to go and read spicy brown girl romantic books. [00:41:25.080] - Nisha Romantic. Yeah. My website is nishajtuley.com. you can find me as Nishajt writes, on pretty much every platform. And, yeah, that's the best place to find me. And I. I don't go on Twitter anymore, but I shit talk on threads a lot instead. Now, I was thinking I always think I'm like, shit talking a bit too much. But when I was at a polycon, I had, like, numerous people be like, I love following you on threads. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm not posting enough. [00:41:52.610] - Sunyi Yeah, a lot of people are leaving Twitter, which is going to be a whole thing, hope. No, it's just bad. [00:42:00.460] - Nisha I miss the, like, I do miss the knowledge that, like, I learned so much from queering Twitter in my query days. Like, I wouldn't have known so many things that I know now if it hadn't been for writing Twitter. And it's a shame that that is gone now. [00:42:15.150] - Sunyi Yeah, it is. But it's not functioning very well. [00:42:18.280] - Nisha No. And I just, like, I cannot stand that person and I just don't want to have anything to do with anything he touches. Not that the other billionaires are any better, but he seems to be just the worst of a lot at the moment. [00:42:32.970] - Sunyi You've been listening to the publishing radio podcast with Sunny Dean and Scott Drakeford. Tune in next time for more in depth discussion on everything publishing industry. See you later.