Oh, hi. Hey there, travelers. If you are not
on YouTube, you should get on YouTube because
this is a video. We have a guest that has traveled
the same footsteps as Lawrence of Arabia. He's
also a veteran and just a real life adventurer.
We are more than happy to introduce Mr. Wells
Jones to you. Be sure to check out his book,
Line in the Sand. Easy read. Took me six hours
because you could download it on like Audible,
for example. Six hours. It's easy. Awesome. Great
book. We're going to talk about it. We're going
to jump right in. On to the episode. Could I
get to the end again so I know who I'm writing?
Sure. You're Imad? Yeah, Imad right here. Imad.
Okay. And again. And I'm Cody in the middle.
See, I'm looking at you, but it doesn't look
like I'm looking at you. That's okay. Same deal
here. Our camera's a little off set. Yeah, because
our camera's a little bit to our left. So if
we're looking like this, we're looking at you.
Yeah, fuck that. I'm Matt. Matt. Nice to meet
you, Matt. Okay, you guys are wearing fake beards?
Yeah. Yeah, you want me to take it off? We stopped
on the way. Only felt inappropriate. been working
on this for a minute for the episode we've got
you know i listened to your book matt's listened
to your book amazing wonderful book so cool wonderful
book like did you like eduardo ballerini the
guy that you did a great job yeah you know what
we were so fortunate to get him it's always you
know it's like somebody knows someone you say
oh you gotta check him out and Yeah, he was really
good with the voices. He did a great job separating
the characters and stuff. Yeah, it was awesome.
Thank you very much for listening. Of course.
I love the twist in it, like the time travel.
I had to rewind, like, did I hear that correctly?
I had to go back and re -listen to that part.
I was like, they are time traveling. That's crazy.
And it was when we came up with the dagger, I
mean, it kind of slides into, I mean, our thinking
is... It's historical fiction, and the history
is what it's really about. But it's the entertainment.
As you know, if you can pull people in with the
entertainment, you can get the messages out.
Yeah, yeah. And the time travel, it seemed contemporary.
And we've been dealing with a Broadway play for
20 years. We've had four writers. The most recent
writer has got it down. And we've had names.
I could say names. No need to. British people.
This is an American woman. And wow, she just
came up with how to bring T .E. Lawrence and
Gertrude Bell and Amir Faisal and the clan together
on one night at the Paris Peace Conference. And
so it's just, you know, been pulled into a very
particular situation where they're really trying
to reverse the agreement, particularly the Sykes
-Picot, where they just divided up the Middle
East. Yeah. When I say they, they literally did
it in 2016 before the end of the war. And so
Lawrence was fighting under a lie, telling the
Arabs, yeah, we're going to get it. They find
out about it. He goes, yeah, but if we get to
Damascus first, you know, anyway. Yeah. So it's
the story underneath it. And we did the track
in 2006. I just found out about that. I want
to hear about that. You know, it's wild because
for us, Miles and I had been separated. I was
working in D .C. We're both living on the East
Coast. He's in Connecticut. I was in New York,
just very close to each other on the borderline
and just outside of New York City. And when I
met up with the Gambit in 2005, he said, hey.
You know anything about T .E. Lawrence? I said,
yeah. You do? I said, I was trained as an actor.
I said, I was looking for somebody to do like
Hal Holbrook doing Mark Twain. And it was my
mother said, you should do Lawrence of Arabia.
I'm thinking Peter O'Toole. The guy was five
foot five and a half, and that was very integral
to who this cat was. Yeah. I mean, he outperformed.
Everyone. He was more Bedouin than Bedouin. And
that's where he got all this respect and his
love of the culture. And really, the guy was
about Morte Arthur. He was all about the medieval
knights. That was his job. And he found himself
in a position where he went from, you know, all
this Oxford or, you know, jacket and shorts and...
Being on an archaeology dig, just slowly taking
on the costume, the kit of the people around
him, and learning Arabic, and they just fell
in love with him. He found a place that he didn't
have in England, and he stuck with it, and it
just evolved into intelligence, into spying,
and then, boom, there was a war, and many things
happened. We found that he was the one that had
a voice that was positive. about the Arabs, positive
about the Middle East. And everything that was
happening in 2005, I mean, that was the heat
of the war. And the whole concept of weapons
of mass destruction and that lie that just hung
in there to continue, you know, what? Getting
more oil. Yeah. There's so many parts, you know,
when we do the actual... recording of this so
many questions because that book was awesome
just like yeah did he do this like there's so
many things that i'm like did he do this this
is so cool yeah well the thing is it is a novel
yeah and history is spot on we when we hit a
certain city in the book while in real life when
we hit the city we're looking at the book we're
remembering everything all the research we did
But in the book, obviously, it's like eavesdropping
in on what was going on in that place at that
time. Yeah. And so that is some of the wording,
but the temperament and the ideas that were expressed,
especially with Lowell Thomas, who made this
guy Lawrence of Arabia. It was unheard of. I
mean, the first rock star. was T .E. Lawrence.
He was a media phenomenal. I mean, it was just
unbelievable. At the same time, he was absolutely,
totally ashamed of the betrayal. And yet he was
watching him sneak in and see what was going
on and the thrill of the people. Sold out Madison
Square Garden even before it went to England.
Wow. Anyone who sells out Madison Square Garden.
Yeah. Come on. Yeah, that's nuts. People wanted
it. I honestly didn't know a lot about Lawrence
of Arabia. I knew the name. I knew of him, but
didn't really know much. I want to research more
on this guy. Oh, yeah. You've definitely brought
an interest to me to look into it. That's awesome.
I'm hearing that from people that like it, that
are into it. They said, I'm doing the old deeper
dive, but they are saying, I just didn't know.
I mean, this cat wrote the description of guerrilla
warfare in the encyclopedia. And when you read
it, not only is it a beautiful piece of prose,
but it is just elegant in its description of
what guerrilla warfare is. And you figure out,
hey. What's happening here? This is Lilith. That's
Lilith, the evil demon. Yeah, I see a hand at
the table. There we go. That's Felicia. She's
not mic'd up right now. Hello, peace to you.
So if you're into it, there's a lot. And it's
been beautiful. We started doing podcasts in
November between us. Now we're, let's see, there
are like. 33 that are available and there's another
20 that are recorded or being recorded. And it's
been beautiful because the campaign has been
about Lawrence, specifically about the Middle
East, the people, the current, history, or adventure.
The adventure world in the podcast world is like,
you know... i never i never thought about never
really talked about it when you start looking
at life and i'm not a young guy you still do
a lot though you're still climbing mountains
and that's crazy oh oh yeah i was on it this
morning the thing is is that there's always been
purpose behind it and i learned that early i
learned that when i almost bought it skydiving
And that was, you know, a 20 years old hot shot,
you know, in the 70s, early, you know, mid 70s.
And feeling the oats, you know, feeling, wow.
We actually jumped with, we were the opening
act for the Blue Angels. Wow. Really? And so
that was cool. And I almost fell out of the helicopter
because I thought, oh, I don't have to. Clip
in. I'm just hanging the door. This is just three
of us. It's a twin jet engine helicopter. I say
the word Mavericks, but that's what we were titled
in. The Boston Globe did an article on us and
different people back then. And of course Maverick,
the movie Maverick, Tom Cruise and all that stuff.
But it's the independent thinking. And you know
what? You can get your ass in it. Excuse me.
Oh, you're good. Let it fly. And ego can kill
you. Yeah. And I learned that early. I did. I
learned it early in two situations where, one,
I wanted to let go because it was too painful.
And the very person that I had an issue with
pulled me out of it. walked me through it. It
was two steps. You know, I won't go and I could
go into it at another time, but it's, it was
hair raising. And then the helicopter taking
a right bank. And the only thing that saved me,
I'm six foot three, my legs are long and it caught
the skid. My heels caught the skid of the helicopter
to keep me from going. And I just leaned back
into the cabin. Right up against the guy that
was just kneeling down, checking things out,
and he's ready to jump. Another guy on the other
side of the door, but he clipped in. I didn't.
I just thought, you know, you see it on TV now.
You know, people just run up to the helicopter,
sit in the door, and it's gone. Gravity doesn't
play. And I'm not kidding you. I was sitting
there. I was shaking. I basically pissed my pants.
I don't blame you. And I said, what are you doing?
What are you doing? Why are you doing this? I
don't want to do this. It's like, I don't want
to do this. The helicopter leveled up. Yay, everything
good. I was like, yeah. Shaking like, I mean.
And we're going on a streamer run. It's where
we toss out streamers. It's just crepe paper
tied to a little rod to get you jumped, you know,
exit point from the helicopter. And you go up
to altitude and check it out, play, jump, you
know, and do what you want to do. And this is
just north of Malibu where we were doing it.
And the answer came to me, and it said, transportation.
transportation you're on a parachute rescue team
there's a need it's antarctica there's a need
down there this is just a quick way to get to
them because you can't land it's out of range
of a helicopter the airplane can't land it's
not ready you need to get down there and it just
solved it there was my purpose first time also
get rid of the ego you think you're so hot you
know what like that you can just call it and
don't put yourself in that position you said
antarctica yeah i was on antarctic pararescue
team okay wow yeah i did i did read a little
bit of it i purposely pulled away just for our
episode because i do want to oh man i've got
so many questions it's awesome i was young but
it was it was eye -opening and even to get on
the team to, you know, sitting in a club drinking
2 % beer, you know, being 18 years old, he can't
drink anymore. But in the Navy, they had it at
the, you know, the enlisted man's club. And I
saw this guy sitting at these wings with a parachute
in the middle. I'd never seen anything like that.
What's that? Parachute wings. So, for what? I'm
on the parachuting rescue team. Where? Here.
The squadron. How do you get on? You got to apply
and you got to pass. I was going to say, what
kind of schooling do you need to do something
like this? Well, we could get into that, but
it was basically the training. A lot of it was
in -house stuff. A lot of it was medical. A lot
of it was very specifically, very practical stuff
from advanced first aid, but also applied to
extreme situations. cold altitude um wind i mean
when i say cold you know minus big numbers yeah
that's a lot of conditioning you know but but
i've been uh done some ski patrol in vermont
that's where i came from so um pieces you know
i was just meant it was meant to be and and i
loved it and in uh 1977 january 19th um Did a
skydive at free fall at the South Pole. And,
you know, people tend to look at numbers and
I, you know, I'd say, yeah, I'm number seven.
There were a couple of jumps before going way
back. This is a free fall. And there was no other
jump until at the South Pole 20 years later.
Almost, you know, it was a little earlier in
the season. That was six, a couple of European
guys, and four Americans. Three lived. Whoa.
Dang. And these kind of shoots, because I know
a lot of the, I know like with the army, the
shoots, you can't direct them or anything, and
they fall down fast. Are those kind of shoots,
or can you? No, no. The first couple of jumps
was on a 35 foot TU is what they called it. And
it was steerable, but it was just a great big,
huge Cadillac. I mean, it was just, you know,
and it was one where you land, you have to do
a parachute landing fall. And I said, no effing
way. I'm going to do a standup, you know, all
that kind of stuff. You know, you find out how
to go to the next level and no. We had two Stratastars
that were brand new, but they were extremely,
they were almost like prototypes because the
opening on them was so intense that guys were
getting knocked out, unconscious. Wow. It was
just the way it was packed into the back, the
smaller shroud lines, and it's a ram air. Now
you see them all over the place because it's
been perfected. It was five cells. We jumped
paracommanders, paracommanders of precision.
It wasn't, you know, nothing beats what's happening
today. And that's the Strata Star and the Strata
Cloud were 1975 is when they came out. And we
had a couple. I did not jump one. I was still
on a paracommander, which was the hot one. And
I had my own and I loved it and I knew it. And,
you know, you pack your own, nobody touches the
gear. Yeah, I've heard of that as well. Like
you pack your own parachute and correct me if
I'm wrong, but I heard that if you pack someone
else's parachute and it's wrong, is that like
manslaughter? Well, I don't know that. There's
just no one that would do that unless they're
absolutely freaking insane. Yeah. You don't do
that. What we would do is we would just turn
the parachute, turn it around backwards. Oh,
no. So they think they're going forward with,
you know, just or put a bunch of dirt in the
thing. That's brutal. You know, it's like sitting
on the C -130. You got, you know, three new guys
and you're sitting over there and it doesn't
matter who or what you are. It is your first
job. Yeah. You're. you know you may be excited
but you're also like intensely nervous so sitting
on the runway sometimes as you went through the
other flights coming off or jets are happening
and it was a while and it was like i might unbuckle
get ready to go it's sitting across from me and
i'm one of the leaders and just saying okay altimeter
and we're just sitting on the ground playing
and so you lose try to go whoa did we take off
yeah we must have taken off this thing But anyway,
we played around with each other just to keep
each other on our toes. Never would we ever go
crazy. And we would only do it certain levels
to certain people and it would happen once. It
wasn't something you played around because it
was something that was too important not to.
I can respect that. I'm glad there's some respect.
Absolutely. The thing that I found is that it
was the first time in my life that I really had
my own life in my hands and I liked that. It's
like, you're choosing this and you're doing it
and it wasn't as pervasive a sport in the 70s.
You know, it was very unique. And we would jump
at Paris Valley. Paris Valley right now in California
is like big. It's like major drop zone. You know,
they've got the ranch and the East Coast out
of New York and their places in Arizona and all
over. And I know there must be in Texas. Oh,
I'm sure, you know, people do. yeah but back
then no no no no no it was uh you know more primitive
yeah and unique and so that's all anyway i'm
so glad you read the book yeah it was awesome
that's yeah if there's whatever whatever we end
up doing I don't know what I'm trying to say
here. I didn't really know anything about Gaza
growing up in the U .S. Muslims are terrorists
and Jewish people run everything. They're the
bad guy. And this is just what I was fed forever.
And, you know, come around. Now, this is what
I was fed, but I never believed it. I would just,
you know, I would close my ears to anybody and
everything and just try to be a good person over
here. But certain things in the past four or
five years have really started to kick up the
fact that there is no, I can't just turn away
from it. And I've learned a lot and I can, I,
it comes from all angles. Everybody is the bad
guy and I, we just need to stop. We just got
to stop it. These thousand years wars, it's all
too much. And your story, it's just a really
good way to put that out there. It's a primer.
Yeah. Primer into it that people, what we've
discovered. Miles said, I want, you know, his
dad has passed on, but I would want my dad to
go, I didn't know that. Yeah. You know, I didn't
know that. And that's what we found that people
just didn't know. And I said, that's okay. You
know, but there's a foundation and then there's
an escalation and you can get into the, whether
it's Gaza and Israel, going there is just amazing.
I mean, I know a bit about the Bible and even
being in Damascus and this, you know, the straight
street and you go on, wait a minute. Is this
Ananias? You know, if you don't know that, but
it's what Paul is. Saul of Tarsus becomes St.
Paul. He's been struck by lightning on the road
to Damascus. And then the voice says, go to Ananias'
house and he'll tell you what to do. And he says,
stop fucking with your Christians. What are you
doing? You want to see again? Hey, stop this.
and going to Ananias' house. You went? Yeah.
Really? You go, wait a minute, is this just,
no, that was it? Hopefully no lightning. Yeah.
So the biblical things and the context and 39
checkpoints, being invited. by a major, His Royal
Highness. Yeah, the prince. Yeah, that too. And
after that, we ended up producing an eight -day
sea festival for them because we're production
people. You know, we do producing and Miles raises
money on production. And we did an eight -day
sea festival and I had a team that was just killer.
You know, it's like you guys. You guys know what
to do in your work and I've done, you know, a
number of things. in large theaters in the united
states kennedy center lincoln center but doing
that event in saudi arabia was just mind -blowing
and an eye -opener but that prince and it was
in his there's provinces like states and i was
here it's the lowest section of saudi arabia
near the yemen butts up to the yemen border and
doing an eight -day sea festival with uh intercontinental
boat racing f1 boats wow yeah and having and
it was the first time you know an american group
came in and did something like this but it was
um pretty amazing and when we went to his matches
getting in there i mean there's only certain
stories in the book there's a whole lot more
you know we used without overwhelming people
what people we thought would accept. And some
things are rearranged to keep other people from
being incriminated in situations, particularly
the person that did the drinking of the Johnny
Walker. I mean, that is just unheard of. And
then you find out, well, it's not that much unheard
of. I mean, it just depends upon who you are,
where you are, and what your access is to a 400.
real bottle of johnny walker what that's like
300 bucks yeah and jail time you lose something
yeah we always talk about a hand of this of that
a couple of digits yeah yeah all that kind of
stuff but i don't know specifically but there's
many stories and matt what you're saying about
gaza The thing that I think is a very telling
line concerning the war in 9 -11 is when Mags
says, he's asked, you know, where were you at
9 -11? I was, I was in D .C. And Miles is in
Connecticut. And he talked about, he thought
it was about retribution. Yeah. You know, those
19 dudes doing that, clearly. And after October
7th, that's when we figured we must write this
book. We'd been working on a play for so long,
and so many voluminous notes to the playwrights,
meetings, discussions, I mean, just for years.
i mean a lot so it's in our head i don't know
if you saw any of the pictures that i sent included
in that package there's some video and pictures
from places yeah and we have more oh cool but
yeah plenty and the i lost my train of thought
because so much has happened going through my
head you're talking about all the notes putting
the book together No, October 7th. It was the
next week Miles said, we've got to do the book.
And we had started writing the book. We didn't
have a hook into the book. Yeah, well, there
you go. And that's what we came up with. And
we had just run with the Bulls. We did the running
with the Bulls in July, July 8th, 2023 in Pamplona.
And we were in the mix. And we, you know, we
run. Yeah. But anyway, we put ourselves in where
all the hot shot, where the runners were, where
the real on the horns guys were. And that's at
the beginning. And then this whole, like it says
in the book. Yeah, that was. And that is what
I said it was like. Balls! It was just like everything
slow motion. And just these massive beasts. Anyway,
that was in 2023. Wow. That was in 2023. It was
a good hook to bring Jeremy, who's a real person,
and just put him there. We see him and he's goofy,
goofy Jeremy. You know, dude won't give up on
the New York Knicks. He's like, they're not going
to win. So. Anyway. Wow. Incredible. It was important
to write it after October 7th because if not
now, when? When are we going to join the conversation?
The play is not out. It's really far along. We've
had actors, professional actors in New York and
we do little workshops and then we do more work
on the play and people have to go away and the
team comes back and it's all just the time. and
to do it yeah but but it is from that play and
the thinking we ended up saying and we wanted
the play to be called a line in the sand and
the current writer she insists it needs to be
called dinner at the majestic it's one evening
gertrude bell is hosting a party you know a gathering
and you know things explode at the gathering
i mean a lot of things it's just cool and we
we hope it's not done but we we like the direction
and we've stuck with this this wonderful playwright
and so we wanted to get this book out and so
we did we started literally right the next week
and we just dedicated we published on march 8th
or something like that with amazon yeah about
a year ago i saw yeah and it was it was fast
but we had so much in our head and it was getting
the key was getting the outline and it was just
miles is He loves to cook. And so he said, you
know what, let's put recipes in this. Yeah, there
he is. Okay. I was going to say one of you, one
of you guys. Because it was like wherever we
went, that's what it was. It was, I mean, when
you sit down with people, one, you hear their
stories. Even if there's an interpreter, you
know, telling you. And for the most part, people
spoke English. There were checkpoints where,
you know, you've got a guy with a rifle, not
even, you know. an assault rifle, you know, poking
through the things that have been emptied out
of a backpack. And he's going, hey, what? Hey,
what? He opens it up and it begins a broadband
global access network. It looks like a computer.
You open it up like it is when I'm with the agent
in immigration and going, getting into Israel,
Rappaport. She's like, what is this? Yeah, that
was intense. Amazing. You got it through. Wow.
They said it's broadband global access. And that's
when she figured out, oh, you guys are, you know,
triple canopy or Blackwater. I get it. You make
a lot of money. You work for them. But anyway,
so plenty of stories. The most important thing
was to get the book out. The trick was finding
the hook and it just came because it was the
right time. It just came between us and we got
it down. And then as you start, as you know,
as you get an idea with a project going and somebody
comes in and they look at it and they have a
little something, another layer to add to it.
Like, why don't we try this? That's the magic.
yeah and we're writing our second book and it's
it's Magnus and Finn and uh it's uh oh a continuation
of the characters absolutely it's a series and
it's all about that that colonial grab that that
um colonial gaze you know it's that guy that's
at the hearth and he's decked out just looking
or he's a painting and above him is the painting
of him oh yeah He's the one who lured so -and
-so that just everything up. That's cool. When
do you think that'll be done? We're going to
pre -sell and we will publish. We were thinking
the latest December. Oh, wow. Okay. We're on
to it. It's called Havana Familia. It is about
Cuba. Going back to 1958, ultimately, and then
there's a time travel device. And so present
day is 2016. That's a special year. 1958. And
it's when the guerrilla, the rebel forces finally
get to Havana. I mean, they've been through hell
to come out of the jungle and trained in there.
It's sloppy. But they do. And Che and Fidel,
they take over. Yeah, that's wild. He took over.
He was just a dude. He wasn't anything huge.
He was just a dude. Motorcycle Diaries. You ever
see Motorcycle Diaries? No. It's all up in Che.
He's from a good family. He was a doctor. And
he just went on this ride with a friend on a
wacky bike. And they just saw what it was like
out in the rural areas and how the people were
treated. And he just realized that they were
being cheated. The governments were just corrupt.
Keeping all the money from things and not helping
the people. Yeah. So that's our intention is
to... to reveal that like like to reveal in a
line in the sand and so it's a line in the sand
series with magnuson that's so cool i'm glad
it keeps going that's awesome thank you thank
you it's it's good it's i mean it's so necessary
in these times that we just need people thinking
a little bit more it's hard and how do you how
do we get them to do it because for me I read.
I didn't as a kid. I said, I'm not going to read.
Call the wild. No, I'm going to go to Alaska.
Are you kidding me? Why would I sit here and
read the book? I'm going. It's real. It exists.
Why not go there? I eat my words because you
learn from the dead. I'm totally into Marcus
Aurelius and Seneca and Epictetus. I'm totally
into Stoicism. It's part of the book. the real
stuff oh yeah i find that's practical that you
know handle what you can control and and give
up that other you know why the hell are they
doing that it's like that's uh i've been working
on that kind of stuff myself so yeah the the
book i could i could see i could see that from
i'm assuming your character uh yeah and so yeah
there's i was obviously i was thin There were
so many moments of just stopping, breathing.
Maybe a little bit of charisma to sway a situation,
to calm something down. Just being more present.
I relate to a lot of things going on in this
book you got right here. I love it. Big fan.
fantastic thank you yeah it's it's cool how it
shows like hey these are people too like the
only things that we know is what the media tells
us you know it's good to hear from somebody who
has been there you know and that's why we went
to see with our own eyes to hear to understand
to get our feet in the sand and we've read so
much i mean i do have a few books i have books
all over the place But the reading and the research
for the play, when it started, the play, and
then to go on this trek. I mean, we were trained
by an SAS major, Jamie. And it turns out that
he had just finished up with Ewan McGregor and
Charlie Borman for their long way around, their
motorcycle trip. You don't know about it, but
these two guys, the actor and his friend, did
three trips. The first one was a long way around.
motorcycle and BMW GS adventures. And they needed
to understand what they're getting into. And
we did too. And it just turned out that we got
the same guy. And he was just phenomenal. He
was an expert in, he was with the Irish Guard.
He was an expert with checkpoints, but kidnapping
ransom. And he was very clear inside the borders
of Saudi Arabia. You get kidnapped, you're gone.
Yeah. Columbia, they want a million bucks, two
million, pay it, you're released, you're fine.
No, it's political. And he said, and there's
more going on than the public knows. Guaranteed,
yeah. And so we spent good time with him, and
we used it, and by the time we got to that border
crossing into Israel, we were so wiped out. I
mean, just wiped out from so much. Now, we didn't
ride camels the whole way. We did local cars
and camels. Yeah. Book is focused, you know,
did the entertaining side. And there's a sense
that, oh, they went all the way. No. But we did
four days on camels from Aqaba to and through
Wadi Rum. And that was three of us. Was that
because of the terrain? It was too hard on the
vehicles or? No, it was really, we wanted, the
camel riding is what we insisted we wanted to
do. Horseback riding, same thing. But getting
through to do that on camel would take much longer
than we had. We had just under a month to handle
everything that we wanted to do. And so we found
a travel company. really awesome group. It's
called Our Caruso and Company. Caruso. Robinson
Caruso. And we said, look, we've got, we want
to do this. We understand you will customize
your things, but this is in the Middle East.
And the guy was like, okay. We want to go from
Saudi, from Jeddah, all the way through. through
Jordan, through Syria, and then into Israel.
And we do not want any flashy cars. We're going
under the wire. We're not registering with consulates.
And so we're looking for a local hire in their
beat up wild car. They're not a taxi service.
Never would one driver know the next driver.
And they set it up for us. And it worked. For
any of the border crossings, we walked across.
We took whatever vehicle. It was a bus going
across the King Hussein Al -Ambi Bridge. And,
you know, going back to Jamie, he said, that's
Saudis. Jordan? It's westernized. It's a wonderful
place. You need to go to Petra. You need to check
this out and that out. Castles and there's this
and that. And yeah, two weeks. Literally, it
was like 10 days, two weeks. It may have been
12 days before we left. Two hotels in Amman,
Jordan were terrible. They weren't totally blown
up, but they, you know. And one was the one we
were staying in. Wow. We just keep the, absolutely.
We'll go. We'll see it. Probably still see the
damage. See it. And that's where we were. Going
across, how do we want to get into Israel? Want
to fly over it? No way. Go across. Do what people
do. Do what the people do. Wow. And it's true.
You get on a bus and everything about buses.
I mean, we saw them. You see them all the time.
Blown out, blown out, blown out. Yeah, stuff
that we take advantage of all the time. Everybody
here in the States barely thinks about that.
Those people are living with such anxiety. You
don't know when it's going to happen. And you
can cut it with a knife. You can cut it with
a knife. You see all the different people on
the bus. And we're standing, just like it says,
exactly what it was like. I mean, no windows
open, hot, baby crying, you know, smell of poop.
I mean, just all of it. And just the people and
the perspiration and the just, you know, quiet
and the eyes. And for us, we're watching the
two guys outside the bus. And what are they wearing?
They're wearing jeans and a denim work shirt
carrying tavers. And just, you know. checking
things, just going up and down. And then there's
another bus way over there. And then another
one pulls in over there and they're separated.
And you don't say, okay, we're here. Door opens.
It stops. Everybody just relax. That's nuts.
So you think we've got, I mean, I've gone on
a lot. I hope that's okay. Oh, of course, yeah.
That's why we're here is just to chat. It's all
been very fascinating. I haven't had the fortune
to listen to the book yet. It's on my list of
things to do, I promise. But even so, the things
that you talk about are extraordinary and very
interesting, and they inspire moments of thought.
So definitely don't feel any guilt or remorse.
Oh, yeah. I would love it if you took the wheel.
I mean, I'm sure all of us think the same way.
Hear your stories. It's awesome. Yeah, see, we
pretend to be adventurers over here. But lately,
you know, pretending only does so much. Hearing
your stories, reading the book. You know, I don't
see myself jumping out of any planes, but I can
see myself going on a little quest. Oh, for sure.
For sure. I want to tell you that miles. Because
it's in our next book. skydiving it opens it's
not running with the bulls it's a jump and it's
it's a it kicks it off just just remember that
miles is the one he's all knowledgeable and all
this so he's the one that gets hurt yeah yeah
yeah it's like dude you know all right let's
fix it just come here come here sit down you
know So the running with the bulls, was that
a real injury he got as well? No, it wasn't.
He did, he was running with an injury. Okay,
okay. So the running with the bulls, that particular
part, exactly, was fabrication. And he actually
got a picture with the bulls right next to him.
It's like an AI digitalized picture. It's really
cool. And he's like, he looks like a, you know.
and the bulls were right there yeah but uh um
miles trained and did his first jump at 13 000
feet above ground ago above ground level and
it was he he was not it wasn't a piggyback he
had a guy in front and a guy behind and he was
on communication and he did the whole freaking
jump you know it was a 60 second delay and as
his first jump which is the way they do it now
if you're ready if you're you know you can handle
it and they make a judgment on that and so I
think it's great and we in the next book kind
of jump into it cool What's the usual elevation
for normal jumps? Well, everybody wants to get
up high. I don't know what they are today, but
it's just a matter of paying to get up to an
altitude. But if you're new, you're always jumping
with an instructor. You're not even allowed near
the place without having someone connected with
you because no one wants the liability. Yeah.
It would be insane. I mean, you wouldn't. No
one would. I don't know if there's ever a case
that someone tried to just hop on board or they
didn't know what they were doing. And so the
altitudes are as high as you can get because
that's where the fun is. It's having that space
and time. And the highest I've jumped is 16 ,000
feet. We're going to do a halo jump. It's high
altitude, low opening. It just didn't pan out
that day. There were two things that didn't happen.
That and also jumping out of the Goodyear blimp.
I don't know if they're around anymore. Was it
during the Super Bowl? Was it during the Super
Bowl? A little halftime show. What's the clean
thing that comes to mind when you think of the
Goodyear blimp? I think I heard a couple weeks
ago that there were like five of them left or
something. Like less than ten Goodyear blimps.
Yeah, you know, they used to be around in the
70s, 80s. Oh, the humanity. You fly the smallest
drone into a Goodyear blimp and bye -bye blimp.
You got to be careful, I guess. I know. Well,
we were all set and the mist came in and there
was concern. It was the only time, but it was
all cleared. it just didn't happen same with
the the halo uh was just the whole thing had
to be squashed but we were ready we were all
outfitted and oxygen and set to go and it just
didn't didn't happen but at 16 000 feet i say
i said i i think it was a 90 second delay but
if you look at you look at a clock or look at
your watch and just tick off 60 seconds and imagine
yourself falling through the sky and controlled
but it's it's it's pretty trick you know yeah
a long time you know i'm still falling yeah it's
wild i can't imagine that it's just that's terrifying
ah who knows maybe someday i'll do it but boy
i mean that'd be the way i'd want to go yeah
it's always been the last thing on my list yeah
there's no need but but I got my little thrill
-seeking that I like as well. There's just something
to full -body energy exertion. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
I haven't done it in a while, and I will this
spring. Awesome. I pulled my logbook out, and
it was just really wonderful to go back and look
at it and then box it. pictures and articles
and when we started doing these podcasts because
what had happened with me is that when people
look in my bio and they see antarctica that yeah
that's crazy everybody sits up it's like and
and and just like with you i'm thinking i don't
know how we're going to do a podcast but i like
i love what you do thank you And you seem to
have a level of enthusiasm that was, I said,
okay. And don't shut it down, Jones. Go with
it. And I've been doing that. And I have found
intersections that I never would have dreamed.
And I did a podcast for World Extreme Medicine.
And they're international. Oh, cool. Really?
What's this about? And the guy was just very
clear. Anybody that stepped out of a C -130 50
years ago on the Antarctic ice as a pararescue,
Antarctica, I want to talk. Yeah. Never, so never,
I mean, I've gone on with my life, that's not.
But it is something that's been able to connect
dots. You know, you look back at college, high
school, graduating, what you do in that summer,
college or no college or work. You start connecting
dots to what's happened in your life. And for
me, you know, I'm approaching my seventh decade
like really soon. And you're still doing all
this stuff. You look good. Yeah, man. Happy early
birthday. Thank you. Cinco de Mayo is my birthday.
What a great day to be born. Right on. And I
have a brother born on my first birthday. So
that's cool, too. I always say I got the best
gift. Oh, yeah, yeah. Fuck you. No, we're good.
We're good. But so. I really appreciate that
you've read and listened, that you know the book.
And I'm finding that that has happened. Miles
said, no, it's going to read the book. I mean,
it takes too long. And that's one of the things,
to your point, Matt, how do you get the information
on? We thought we have to do a book and it better
be entertaining or they're not going to read
it. Or some of the reviews. And it just happened.
Now we're over 500 reviews and we're pretty good.
Okay. Oh yeah. Like it was no problem. Like we
both listened to it on audible, you know, I've
got a boring brainless job. I just throw my earpieces
in and I just got lost in it. It was awesome.
It's great to have a job like that because then
you're doing two things. something feeding you.
And I, I find the podcasts have done that for
me. Yeah, exactly. I'm getting, I've been finding
all this kind of info from podcasts while, while
working the day job, you know, really thinking
about how the day job sucks. Yeah. Kind of realizing,
Oh, maybe I don't need to be doing this all the
time. So one step at a time, we all wake up to
what we really want to do. And it is a step at
a time. You know, there's a quote from Churchill,
and I don't know, I actually typed it out. I've
got a couple of quotes, but it has to do with
being tapped on the shoulder to do something
that is just perfect for you. It's the right
time. And what a shame. If you weren't ready
for that, for that potentially finest hour in
your life. And so that was like, it's kind of
like not the early Boy Scouts saying be prepared,
but there is something about being prepared.
It's like really not getting lost in the, oh
God, I just hate this. What am I going to do?
It's like lifting it up. and getting ready. And
I have found that, and I've been asked, well,
you know, when did you decide you wanted to do
that? I said, I didn't, I was tapped. What? Yeah.
Well, after you did that, I said, well, because
I did that, I was tapped to do this. Yeah, it
turns out opportunities come when you're like
open to have some. Yeah. And the bank account
sometimes has been really wonderful and other
times it's just sufficient. And a spiritual teacher
said to me, sufficient is good. Yeah. That is
true. This American dream, this concept, sufficient,
roof, food, clothing, children, okay, doing,
you know, don't compare yourself to someone else.
And that's why, you know, they say, well, how
many times have you done that? A lot. Well, how
many? Well, I've done 78 summit solos on ball.
Oh, well, you're going to do Evers. I'm so not.
That's a good choice. Maybe, maybe 20 years ago,
but no, there's still bodies on that mountain
that they can't access to bring bodies of all
ages on that mountain. And the thing is, is that.
It's all relative. You guys go on an adventure
every time you engage with the show. It's an
adventure. Like you said, Matt, you're talking
about, you know, it's a level of adventure. It
is. It's relative. I say, you know, putting a
child in a baby carriage, all the elements are
still there. You got to think about what you're
doing. There's going to be, you know. You can't
plan for everything. You have to be adaptable
and be prepared. And you're going to go out into
the world and cross the street and you take the
water bottle and you take a little snack and
you do all this stuff. It's an adventure. Yeah.
And part of the adventure is you've got to make
it back. It's like you've got to do the full
circle. Safety is fair, I guess, if that's your
quest is to make it back. Yep. Yep. So, and it's
been beautiful to be able to think about these
things and connect the dots and say, oh, well,
adaptability was very important. What are the
traits? You know, capacity. It's like capacity.
I've always, you know, you reach a point, you
go. You just find you can do more than you ever
thought you could. And it's not just physical.
It's just on all levels. If you're being put
in a position to handle something, basically
you can. It's just being willing, having that
will, okay? I'm going to try to do this, and
I'll take it a little bite at a time, but to
go forward and demonstrate that. And that's why
the solo, Sunrise, that's where I found more
about myself. Mallory was asked, and George Mallory
is one of my icons, why are you doing this or
funding this? Why are you going trying to do
Everest? Nobody's done it. And he says, because
he's attributed with saying because it's there.
What he really did say was, it's not the mountain
that we conquer. It's ourselves. Yeah. That's
it. It's conquer ourselves. And it was 100 years
ago. June of 1924 was his last round. They saw
him way up near the Hillary steps. he and sandy
earning and it's been brought brought back up
because uh jimmy chin a a documentarian he did
solo you know alex honnold's climb he's done
a number of things and he found on everest sandy
irving's boot With his foot still in it. I haven't
heard about this yet. Is that wild? Yeah. They
did the DNA. And you know where I was? It was
literally right at the end of a glacier sitting
on a rock where the glacier had just been receding.
Wow. And it was sitting right there. That's crazy.
That's the truth. It was like coming upon it.
I wonder whose foot this is. Yeah, wild. Make
sure it's not your foot. And so they've been
trying to piece together that. So I really admire
that. And there's other contemporary guys like
David Goggins. That guy's an animal. He's amazing.
What he's done in his life. dark -skinned man,
black man, going from 300 pounds down to, you
know, Navy SEAL. Okay, right. Okay. That Goggins.
That Goggins. And check him out, Matt. He wrote
a book, Can't Hurt Me. I want to say he was on
Joe Rogan's podcast years ago. Absolutely. He's
done Joe Rogan, Rich Roll, those, you know, yeah.
And he wrote his own book. and the guy the guy
uses the word like he he's he's ingenious on
how he slips that in and everything just you
know and when he's been able to talk about capacity
he's he's gone beyond but when you hear about
it it's like how do people run the first four
minute mile not that i want to run it but i appreciate
it how did ross edgeley Swim around the United
Kingdom. Well, he did six hours on, six hours
off, five and a half months. What? Yeah. And
he swam around. That's wild. Yeah, that's nuts.
Because it's there. You don't have to do it.
Yeah, right. You don't have to do it, but we
can honor. I mean, look at your heroes in your
store. Heroes and villains. People that go beyond
it, you know? Yeah, how far can you get if you
don't think you can get far? You have to believe
in something. Yeah, I mean, I have people saying,
boy, you're really, why are you doing, that's
a lot of risk. I don't see it as risk. Yeah,
if you see it as risk, it's a fear. The risk
to me is someone else's opinion of you. For me,
it's like, yeah, I've turned back. And I've learned
more turning back than getting to the top. Having
to just bite the bullet and then sitting here
and thinking, it's like, oh, really? You had
to bite the bullet? Would you want to die? Or
not die? You reach that point where you have
to call it. Yeah. Period. It's not 50 mile an
hour wind, it's 70. You lift your foot and it's
swinging you around. You're falling. You're above
the tree line. You're alone. The sun isn't up
and you're not going to see the sun because there
ain't no way. It's completely enshrouded. But
you take someone like David Goggins, he'd probably
keep going. Me? But it was for me, that was my.
That's wise. Very wise. It was my choice, you
know, and so the whole concept of risk and stuff
is relative, just like adventure is relative.
And adventure can be simple and it's in life
too. It's not just climbing a mountain or that
you did it so many times. Peak bagging means
nothing to me. Accepting when someone says I've
done. whatever it's a resolve it shows me that
that individual is capable of committing to something
that's hard multiple times or maybe in all different
weather or or you know whatever so it says something
about character not about you know pictures i
think that's actually the most important distinction
in the subject of capacity There's so many people
nowadays that place an overabundance of importance
on relatively unimportant or overtly simplistic
things. But when you're able to take that life
wisdom and determine what you fill that capacity
with, what is of actual import, then at that
point you can acknowledge that the limitless
notion of human capacity is an asset and not
a hindrance anymore. So I really appreciate that
perspective of yours. Beautifully put. Thank
you. Yeah. Really clear. Did someone write that
down? It's recording. That's why he's running
our adventure. Okay. That's cool. Because that
was very... Isn't it wonderful when ideas come
and it's just like... It just flows. It's the
best. I think that's why we've been... doing
the podcast for so long. Well, we were just doing
a Pathfinder tabletop roleplay, you know, basically
just doing improv with each other. But that sense
of adventure takes over. I mean, I poured so
much into each of these characters without realizing.
Like, I thought, you know, oh, I'm just acting
like somebody. And then you kind of realize,
oh, no, I've put my entire self, onto the table
right and i i remember it like i was there that's
an adventure to me it's and there's vulnerability
to it too yeah i'm all for it just right it's
not just a you know a character playing a certain
role it's a character that's it's real Yeah,
it's got wants and needs, desires, its own ego.
Right, smells things. Every character has a piece
of us in them. There's no avoiding that. That's
acting and that's what you have to go on. That's
what it is. That's what I found. The more I did,
and I love stage, the more I just completely
immersed in the moment. with the people and things
would come and it was just like it became very
that sense of improvisation without throwing
the play or the other the the scene partner in
the play off but it is um it's thrilling when
you find that open avenue to do that and that's
what i loved about your show it's just like whoa
this is cool yeah we we had to do some i mean
we started right before covid what two months
before everything shut down yeah 2019 and then
it's like oh we couldn't see each other for over
a year and then yeah but it's something that
i mean speaking for myself it really helped us
get through it being able to put ourselves into
these adventures in a time where i mean granted
it hasn't the scope of everything hasn't really
changed we've just been dealing with it for so
many years now but it was it was a bright light
in a really dark time for for us and if we can
project that for anybody else that's passing
by then that's that's the key for me yeah well
hearing that you listen to the book and you like
it that is like that's Well, that too. How can
I expect anybody to stop and listen to me if
I don't stop and listen to them? Yeah. So yeah,
I've been taking more chances with stuff like
that too. And I'm glad I listened to your book.
Yeah. And also thank you for reaching out to
us. Like when I first got the email, I was like,
you know, these days with like scammers, I was
like, is this real? There's no way this guy.
First thought was that you weren't real. I'm
just being honest. He's legit. This is awesome.
Yeah, we immediately, everybody started going,
all right, let's see if this person's real. Started
Googling, just trying to figure anything we could.
Yeah, that's cool. Good. Yeah, it's where we
live and we have to be mindful. But when it connects,
like this is connecting. And I found that with
the last few months, it's just been this whole
world of new people. Mostly men. There are some
women. I have two podcasts coming up next week
with soul wisdom and sacred travel. And one's
a single woman, and she's in... I don't know
the town, but she's in Switzerland. So it's been
very international. Copenhagen, Singapore, Australia,
UK, Spain, and then Canada and all around the
United States. Just in the last, it's been, it'll
be close to four months, but three months. Nice.
Wow. And meeting people and meeting people of
integrity. that have just, they're good souls.
Let's just say that. Like I'm feeling here. And
it's, boy, we all have our challenges in life,
but when you can have a conversation and have
a story to tell, it binds people. Yeah. It connects.
The storytelling. Oh, yeah. That's why I really
think we could... Because we have our podcast
and that's the shows. I don't know. In some way.
if we could just get a recorded session. I mean,
pretty much what we've been doing here and now,
but in the guise of adventure, because I'm telling
you, I see myself going to Egypt sometime. And
if you could lay out the groundwork, if you could
lay out the groundwork and talk about your book
and talk about the next one coming out, because
we just, we need info like this. And adventure.
Info and adventure. Because a lot of people are
just fed up of doing the same thing every day.
And it's becoming very clear that we're being
used in many industries. You can do it. And it's
you. And that is individual. A sense of adventure.
And it should not be compared with... anyone
else no but just to believe that you can do something
outside of your norms take that step expand that
curiosity just just open it up a little bit and
once you get a little taste of it it's safe you're
okay you know i know people are i got my life
together i'm not you kidding me and if so that's
awesome but mine mine mine's been shaken up and
i'm i'm you know i'm ready to do something fun
rather than just await the next uh big fall that
happens oh yeah did you hear what he said what's
going on yeah i know i'm barely hanging on and
this this podcast gives me purpose and i'm so
glad i got these nerds here to play with me glad
to know i'm your one safety line i think um when
you get into adventurers The real guys, they're
pretty humble. You know? And especially if they've
been in mortal danger. That's where you find
the humility. That's where I found it. Yeah.
Oh, you know. And it's relative. For sure. Whatever
anyone has done, somebody's done it more. Yeah.
You know? But it is something about... conquering
self. And that's individual. And to reach that
point and to find a level of wisdom. I had a
conversation with Miles and said, Miles, you
know, we're reaching a point in our life where
we're going to be the elders. And there's, I
really believe, and I mean, this is before the
podcast, even before the book, you know, maybe
we're writing the book, but it's like, we have
a responsibility pass on ideas things that have
worked i don't know how it's going to happen
and boom here we go and there's an ability to
talk kind of within the book and beyond to think
people to resonate with that they're okay that
they you know they've got this and that and this
guy or us We relate to it. We're good. It's been
wonderful talking with you. It really is. Thumbs
up. Thank you. It's like Cousin It, but it's
not a head with hair. It's hands. There's definitely
a whole head with hair over there, though. Cool.
Cool, cool, cool. There we go. Oh, hang on one
second. I got to turn a mic on. Felicia's pointing
at it. She's trying to get a word in over here.
Okay, try it. Does it work for you? Hello? Hello,
Alicia. Hi. I just wanted to say I've been listening
the whole time, even though I've been just sitting
there being hands painting. But thank you so
much for coming to talk to us. I really appreciate
it, and I'm really excited, too. I know I'm not
a very social person, but I'm really excited.
I can tell, Alicia. You just give the hands first,
and then, you know, if we're good, we get the
elbow. Exactly. I got to feel it out, you know?
I'm like a cat. I love it. I love it. But, yeah,
you seem cool, so. Thank you. I thought I'd say
hi. Yeah, and I feel the same way about all of
you. This has been great. Very good. Hell, yeah.
Hell, yeah, Wells. Thank you. Okay. We're hearing
from you. No rush. We're in. we're in in the
meantime you got the move yep you got the move
and we all got things going on so onward let's
just keep at it yeah we all got stories to tell
it's gonna happen yep yeah it's been wonderful
uh we'll we'll get in contact with you soon cool
all for it yeah okay guys matt cody matt alicia
good night have a good night so long