Welcome to Cultural Connections Lab. I'm your host Dr. Kelly Forbes. We are here to talk with educational professionals around the world to impact and influence the education system as we focus on cultural connections and the education of multilingual, diverse students.
We're excited to have you join us today. We sincerely hope that you enjoy the show.
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Welcome listeners to another podcast episode of Cultural Connections Lab with myself, your host, Dr. Kelly Forbes. I am incredibly excited, as I always am every time to be with a very distinguished guest who we have here today.
We have Dr. Okhee Lee. Dr. Okhee Lee is a professor in the Stainhart School of Culture, Education, and Human Development at New York University.
She is committed to advancing research, policy, and practice that promotes STEM and language learning for all students, particularly multilingual learners.
Lee was a member of the Next Generation Science Standards NGSS writing team and served as leader for the NGSS Diversity and Equity team.
She also was a member of the steering committee for the Understanding Language Initiative at Stanford University.
Her work involves integrating science, language, and computational thinking with a focus on multilingual learners.
Her latest work addresses justice-centered STEM education with multilingual learners by integrating multiple STEM subjects, including data science and computer science, to address societal challenges using the case of the COVID-19 pandemic.
Since the early 1990s, her research has been funded by the National Science Foundation.
Dr. Lee brings research and policy to practice.
Her team developed a year-long fifth-grade science curriculum called Science and Integrated Language, or CEL for short, that translates contemporary science standards into classroom practice with multilingual learners.
The curriculum is in a field trial at New York City Public Schools with funding from the National Science Foundation.
Using the CEL curriculum, Lee's team published teacher resources in collaboration with the New York State Department of Education.
In addition, her team published teacher resources in collaboration with the National Science Teaching Association and made them available across the country and internationally.
Lee provides leadership from major organizations and institutions across multiple fields, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Educational Research Association, Center for Applied Linguistics,
National Academy of Education, National Association for Research and Science Teaching, National Science Foundation, New York State Boards of Cooperative Education Service,
New York State Department Education, as well as the New York City Department of Education.
This is a wonderful opportunity for all of us and all the listeners. Welcome, Dr. Lee. Thank you so much for being here today.
It is my honor and thank you for your kind words.
Well, I know that our listeners are going to be very fulfilled by the end of this podcast interview. In preparation and doing some research to get to know you more, of course, whenever your name came across and you were going to be one of our guests,
I was so excited being a big advocate in the field of multilingual education and then to continue to learn more about you from what I already knew in your research just gets me incredibly excited about our conversation today.
It is my pleasure. And thank you for having me here today.
Well, the research that you do and the work that you do in our field is so incredibly important and not just for content learning necessarily, but to be able to be an advocate in communities, communities that often don't have always the appropriate
access to certain classes, whether it be for organizational purposes or things like that. But in your work, there's just so much advocacy for justice for multilingual learners to be able to have access to STEM classes.
And you have a very important passion for that. And so I really want to hand this off to you to ask, not only how did this become such an important topic for you in our field, but also how did you, how did you start the process to identify that hey, this is a really big need that we need to to consider and to share more information with the other educational professionals in our field.
So you asked me about how I got into this field.
Well into this field and then most specifically also into into the work focusing on STEM for multilingual learners.
Okay, can I go back a little bit about who I am so that I can reflect on my personal life in relation to my work.
So about 40, two days of a two days shy of a 40 years ago.
I came to the US from South Korea.
And I was about five days shy of becoming 25 years old.
I do the math and now you know my age.
So 40 years, 40 years, the sense of a 40 years in the US gives me a time to reflect on who I am and what I have done and what I would like to continue doing before I before I end my my work.
So that's that.
Just a very briefly of how it started, I would say, so I'm from South Korea.
Was born several years after the Korean War and grew up in a very remote village.
After the Korean War, so I when I see photos of their country, the photos, it reminds me of who I was when I was born.
And then long story short, I came to the US.
To Michigan, 40 years ago, and then I did my study in science education.
And then when I finished my doctoral degree, I joined my husband in Miami, Florida.
Now, think about doing science education research in the early 1990s in Miami, Florida.
Now, before then, I really did not have a formal training on language and culture in science education.
Now, when you think about doing research at the time in Miami, all the students that you were working with, the teachers, the instructional settings were about language and culture.
That's the life of Miami.
So I studied doing science education in Miami, which inevitably involves multilingual learners.
And when I started doing the work about language and culture in 1992, that was the beginning of my work, which was about 30 something years ago.
People would say, what does language and culture have anything to do with the science?
And I say, what? Science is science and science. Science is universal.
And people didn't think about it. That was only three decades ago.
So with a younger generation of colleagues, when I say that when I started the first year in 1992 about language and culture in science, that Tina Turner, the song of what does love got to do with it?
And it's hard for people to remember that there was only three decades ago that we didn't think about.
And so I was quite flustered that the field of science education or education research in general did not pay attention to the student population.
And I was flustered and a very wise colleague of mine told me that keep doing what you do.
In no time would people wake up one day and say, my God, the students in front of me look different than my students.
Just only just very a few years ago, that would have happened.
And I didn't quite understand what that meant until 1992 and in 1910.
And that would be 20 years later. I was invited to be part of the writing team of the science standards.
And then was asked to lead the team to address diversity and equity.
So it took about two decades from nobody would pay attention to me to wow, I'm the center of the attention.
The trailblazer of it.
I was a troublemaker first.
Perfect.
So let's see. So it took two decades from multi the student population to be not recognized at all to the attention. And then it has been a decade since then.
And I expected to work for another decade. So I would like to the cycle of two decades and two decades.
And I cannot even imagine. So the reason I share the story is I'm sort of like, take one second of pause and say the student population.
And the reason I'm saying is that at that time, Kelly, you may not remember.
You may, may not. But according to No Child Left Behind of 2001,
the student population was called limited English proficient students.
LEPs.
LEPs. LEPs. It's LEPs.
That was 2001. It's a federal term.
And nobody liked it, right? Because it is limited.
And so the field went very strongly against that limited English proficient student.
And my thought was that in my lifetime, if I were to see the change of the term from limited English proficient to something else, we're not limited.
I wouldn't be happy.
But guess what? So when Every Student Succeeds Act of 2015 became a law, legislation,
the Every Student Succeeds Act called the student population as what? English learners.
So it took from 2001 to 2015 from limited English proficient to English learners.
And when the English learner that term came out in the law, some people thought at least what a relief and others thought that that's not enough because it's still English learners.
The norm is English. It's either you have it or don't have it.
And once you say either you have it or don't, that's a little bit still continued deficit of OK, you don't have English or OK, you have English.
So we were all striving and I was really delighted that when WIDA 2020 edition came up with a term multilingual learners.
And what is important about the multilingual learners is that the WIDA standards have been adopted by 34 states.
No, 36 states and four territories.
And then see, so that means 36 states are using multilingual learners.
And so I'm joking to people that, oh, you must be very confused. Why?
Because according to ESSA, every student succeeds at you have to use English learners.
But according to your state standards, you use a multilingual learners. Are you OK with using two terms alternating?
And they said, it's perfectly fine.
It is true. There's so many different acronyms that have come out.
I was I was just watching a pre-recorded webinar that came out not too long ago, either last week or a few days ago from the Office of English Language Acquisition with Mantharath Garibai on there.
And it was part of that was discussing all the different acronyms that we have gone through over the years.
For me, the main because it is federal legislation, I think of NEP and then EL and then now ML, multilingual learners.
And guess what? Once the field says 36 states use a multilingual learners and the field of educators is pushing.
And I expect that multilingual learners is going to be the federal legislation term sooner than later.
I think it's incredibly important for us to consider the words that we use to not be deficit based and to be assets based and to be very critical in our thinking about that, because there are also psychological implications to that.
And not only that, I think just, you know, overall as a community to be reflective about all of the gifts and talents that diverse communities, everyone brings and to focus on those as assets and to have them be recognized as assets intentionally.
And to seek them out. Exactly. So according to No Child Left Behind, I would be limited English proficient. And there's nothing limited about you.
And then I would be someone who is learning English as the norm. And now I am multilingual learner.
For me, that's really just a simple example of an asset oriented approach of the population.
So from here on, we are going to use a multilingual learners.
Multilingual learners. I totally agree. And here in the state of Oklahoma, we are also a reader state.
And so we are very accustomed to using the term multilingual learners in our field. And I'm fortunate that we are, definitely.
My research personally was focused on cultural proficiency and the role that it plays in providing an equitable education for all students.
But through that lens of the conceptual framework for culturally proficient practices, you know, recognizing that the dominant societies and how that impacts other societies and other communities is very important for us to consider, I believe, in all of our work.
But I think that helps us, you know, break into bigger conversations about what we can do to help promote and seek ways to enhance justice in our field.
And I think it's so inspiring, the work that you were doing, because it promotes not just equity, but this incredible sense of justice, which is out beyond the classroom.
I mean, this is a global discussion. And again, I'm just so fortunate to have you here to be able to elaborate on this, because you are the expert in this field.
And I also just want to say thank you for sharing your story.
We are more than just our bios. We're more than the titles that we have or just the jobs that we perform.
But there's our own journeys are so important and so special. And so I appreciate you sharing part of yours with us, because that's what feeds in to our passion and to our why sometimes of why we do what we do.
That's why we think of identity, positionality, the stance that we take.
How did those experiences help encourage you to get into the focus and the conversation of justice through science?
So bringing bringing that together, because it's something that, to be honest, there's there is good research about this out there, but it's not something that I see that comes up predominantly anywhere.
And so is there is, is there a connection that you had that was a unique experience, or maybe like a moment in your life that that helped with that trajectory to consider, not just, you know, the experience that you had with language and culture and having those conversations to the beginning, but for for where we are today.
Anything that that where you are today in your professional career that has really been that moment that kind of leveraged this trajectory into more people collaborating about the importance of justice through STEM and science for multilingual learners.
So I can think of a few guideposts that I remember of this, this epiphany of a wow like that.
So the first experience that I had of language and culture is when I flew from Michigan to Miami, and I arrived at the Miami International Airport.
I was in Miami, and I just landed at the airport and he says, Welcome to Miami. And then there was a Spanish and then there was a Haitian Creole.
And I looked at the signs and he says, English, Spanish and Haitian Creole.
And I said, Oh, wow, I'm in a different world now.
There are three languages officially in every public setting. We're talking about 1990.
And that was the awakening of so I became much more aware of English, Spanish text tends to be longer than English.
Text is just longer than English.
And Haitian Creole tends to be somewhat shorter. So I'm becoming a lot more mindful of different languages because I studied Korean.
I mean, that's my mother tongue, home language, and then Chinese, English and German.
So I was thinking of the different languages. So that's one moment of a wow. It's like a little bit like what Wizard of Oz.
I'm not interested anymore. It's an incredible culture shock.
And then your language represented. Yeah.
From Korean to Michigan speaking English to Miami, Florida, just seeing three languages. All right.
I'm a different I'm in a different place. So that that's one one one.
Just the just the recognition of diversity. And then the second is doing research and people say,
What does language and culture have anything to do with the science? Because math is universal and science is universal.
That's that's a second. The third that I found more recently, there are a lot more markers.
The third that I found interesting is that so I was a part of the science of standards. And that was 2011.
You can imagine that I just moved from Miami to New York. So that was a one big change.
Then I was invited to be a part of the standards writing team and the lead of the equity and diversity team.
That's the second. And then the third is that there was an understanding language initiative at Stanford by prominent colleagues and particularly Kenji Hakuta led the understanding language initiative.
The main idea at the time was that now the Common Core for ELA and math are in place.
And the science of standards also came out in 2012 is the framework document and science standards came out in 2013.
So the language education community came together saying that the language education needs to be part of this discourse about academic the content standards.
And the main reason of that language education community to come together with a content area educators is because that starting from no child left behind and through the essay, the every student succeeds at and now it will say that that English language proficiency standards must be have three components.
And one is it's it should have reading, writing, speaking and listening, which is, by the way, limited.
And I'll say more about that. And the second is that all students across the proficiency meet the standard, the proficiency.
And the third part of that federal legislation is that English language proficiency standards aligned with academically rigorous state standards.
So the language standards are aligned with academic standards.
And that makes a lot of sense because just Common Core for ELA and math came out and science standards came out.
And that was also the about time that the three C three inquiry inquiry is the in social studies came out.
It was all in early 2010.
So the language education committee came out to say that language education should be also part of this discourse.
So that at the time, English learners have the equal access to content standards.
And so they came together. Now, here is that realization.
So as a part of the science of standards, we say that it's all standards, all students, sciences standards.
It should be accessible to all students. It's all standards, all students.
So as a part of the the language education committee, I always thought that I don't know enough of the language education.
So I put it aside. But now I'm part of that the consortium, I mean, the steering committee and I represent a science education,
along with someone, another person who is a scientist.
And so. And I I looked into the language standards and it didn't make sense.
So let me say, Kelly, what I mean by that.
So I looked at, for example, WIDA at the time based on 2012 WIDA and also ALPA 21, which came out around 2014.
I looked at it and it says it's a can do philosophy that English learners, I'm using the term at the time, English learners can dot dot dot.
But when you look at the standards and examples, it will say that for WIDA 2012, for example, there is science standard.
And then the science standards is translated into an example of a language use.
So I say, hmm, science standards are for all students. So why would they bother to translate into a context of a language use?
And then that is translated into cognitive function, cognitive ability.
And then cognitive ability dictates the language use at multiple levels of English proficiency.
And on bottom is language that will count language. And it's all about vocabulary terms.
So when you look at the the different levels of English proficiency, it will say level one student draws level two labels a few words.
Level three describes using sentences. Level four analyze.
And that level five something evaluate in paragraphs. So at every level of proficiency, the cognitive ability is lower at the lower level proficiency.
And the amount of language is lower at the lower level of proficiency.
So I'm looking at the cover of the standards, which says can do philosophy. But when I open the cover and look at the page, it says, oh, no, you cannot because you're the time your proficiency is lower.
So what I'm realizing is that at the time before we equated language proficiency with a cognitive ability, that if you are lower in language proficiency, you are lower in cognitive ability.
And I thought, am I reading it right? I must be reading it wrong because English is my second language. I must be reading it wrong. I don't understand this.
So I asked the people, do you understand that? Can you tell me why? And the language educators will say, but I don't know enough of the science content areas and science educators will say, but I don't know enough of a language education because we expect the other field.
And how who am I? How would I dare to ask experts in another field? So we don't ask.
So that was my awareness of this does not fit. At one point I said that, oh, the emperor does not have a clothes on.
And I'm realizing that at the time, English learners at the time was in limited English proficiency students and then limited more in limited. They were succeeding, not thanks to, but despite our expectations.
And that was a big moment of, wow, we're doing it not quite right. And I'm really grateful from my experience that.
I worked with my language education colleagues and I respected them tremendously. And I was just sort of like a newcomer into the club, the community learning about much more systematically of I need to know because science educators would come to me and say, OK, do you know?
And I cannot say I don't know, but I could not answer the questions because I did not know enough of I don't understand. It's just so nebulous. So I started doing real study of language education from the content perspective and realizing that, whoa, no.
The language proficiency levels were equated with a cognitive abilities which were equated with the blooms taxonomy of a nineteen fifty nine.
That that that was the recognition. So. So I had a choice of am I going to say it or am I going to keep it quiet? Because my my sort of conundrum was that if I say it, it's not going to be pleasant to the field of language education because I am critiquing the whole language
education field. But if I don't say it, I'm hurting the field and I'm hurting the student population. So guess what? I said it. You said it exactly. Yes. And thank you for saying I said it once.
I wrote another piece. I made a suggestion of what it might look like if high expectations of the academic standards in science and other content areas are aligned to language education, the the English the Yelp standards or the standards.
And I am really grateful for the language education community to turn around and say, because academic standards are new since 1910, then Yelp standards also should be new.
And it makes a lot of sense because content standards in YEL a math and social studies and science came out in 2012 2013 around that time. Now, at the time, WIDA standards were 2012. It was based on the previous content standards.
Yes. It's just the evolution of the field. And even in science education, currently we will say that students are doing science and engineering, just like the scientists and engineers do in their professional work.
Students are not learning about science. Students are doing science. Students are figuring out. Students are doing and they're doing right.
But that's a huge shift from students and learning about science from reading science textbooks to doing science and engineering as scientists and engineers.
So there was this gap of science standards, for example, saying that no, we completely flipped from students serving the master of science disciplines to students being the masters of doing science and using language.
I mean, they're doing science and engineering. So there was a bit of a gap between at least science and STEM standards of students are the masters to English Yelp standards where no students have to know the vocabulary, know the grammar to be able to read about
science books and read about or talk about. So there was a bit of a gap for several years until I'm very grateful for WIDA to say they are multilingual learners using multi modality beyond speaking and listening to or reading and writing to
non linguistic of graphs and charts and equations and computational models and using data and even gestures using multi modality.
The current language education committee is beyond the four linguistic modalities of speaking, listening, reading and writing to know. Can you imagine learning math without knowing symbols and equations?
No, and it was difficult not having any language barrier either.
Nothing to do with the language. Can you imagine doing science without knowing graphs and charts? And I mean, right now when the weather is really hot, what color do you use?
Red. When the more that the dark blue disappears, then we say, oh, the climate is changing. It's that. So it makes a lot of sense that WIDA, because Yelp standards are aligned with the content standards. So it starts from content standards.
So now we are saying that students are doing content learning and students are using language as they're doing content.
It's so true that sometimes they're always so separate. And so, you know, to your point, I'm thankful that you had the desire and the courage to speak up and to say something, because sometimes that can be difficult for people to do.
So thank you for being, you know, for being brave and courageous and sharing that. And I feel like all of us as educators who are also trying to best enhance our field as much as possible that we need to be able to speak up whenever we know that there might be that area of critical consciousness that we need to understand that there isn't an equity here.
And especially to allow our multilingual learners to, again, get away from this stigma of limited whenever they are not by any means limited at all, but to find ways for us to, like you said, braid in what we do with language and what we do in the content areas without having to decrease the cognitive processes to cross over that cognitive threshold for content language acquisition.
That's exactly so think of the what we use of a language might be actually a little bit interfering because it's not use language. It's communication of ideas using any means of language, many modes of communication.
It's a communication of ideas. And once we say language, we typically think of a language, language.
Like, correct. Yes, yes, yes. Again, this is why it's so good and see I love conversations like this, because it pushes us to move beyond and to again reconsider what words am I using because of the implication to what I say and how I communicate it.
And you're right. It's not necessarily about language. It's about communication.
It's a communication of ideas for a purpose in context in the service of and when you think of it that way, then it's it's any ways that you communicate.
You know, right now, Kelly, you and I are smiling because we are in sync. We enjoy our conversation. It's we're smiling. It's it's it's a communication.
I'm very excited. I use my body to say it's really interesting, isn't it? It's all part of the communication.
So that's that just to follow up on what you said. So my I learned the two things from that experience, but I thought that I might be thrown away under the bus of how dare you.
But instead, I was really very welcomed to share ideas of I struggled to understand. And if I struggle, chances are that other people also struggle, too.
So I consider speaking up not just the bragging of being boastful, but it is a form of advocacy and activism.
And it's an it's intellectual honesty that I need a helper because I don't understand. And if you if you don't understand, we work together or I may say something to help you to do so that that's a that's the lesson that I learned that educators have a genuinely good heart to help students.
It's a matter of recognizing the gaps in our understanding and sharing our understanding and then build the momentum of that.
I often I often joke about a quote from Socrates. All I know is I know nothing.
But the more that we continue to dig into and to learn in our respective fields, hopefully what you're doing is uncovering other things that you didn't know before and that we're always continuing to to learn more and to grow and to identify those areas.
But I, I really appreciate you, you know, touching on the topic of all of all of the educators, you know, the overwhelming majority of them are maybe an outlier, but educators come with a heart and a passion to want to help and to serve.
And then sometimes we feel like, well, if I don't know something, maybe I can't ask because I might be looked at as if I'm not good enough for my job. So I'm just going to be quiet. And I think if we can break down those barriers and be really curious and ask each other these questions.
Through those conversations, iron sharpens iron and we get to learn so much more and to become better at our craft. And that's going to be the best option for the students. And this to me is a moral imperative for us to continue this conversation with grace and compassion to learn from each other to be the best that we can be for all of our students.
That's exactly but I wanted to go one step further. So it's not only about about our students.
So that we at the time, sometime ago, limited English proficient English learners to now multilingual learners. But it's also my identity and my positionality to them because because I am a native speaker, I still have I cherish my accent.
I make mistakes with a grammar and colloquial English and it's part of my it's a part of me.
So the fact that it's a funny how I'm going to say it.
I say when I ask a question, I have the audacity of saying, Well, English is my second language, and I have the perfect reason to ask because I don't know.
So I'm asking English. That's what but the second is that if someone has to ask a question, it could be me.
It might be me. It should be me.
But it is that notion. So by asking those questions in a bold, but modest way, I'm informing people that do not underestimate me.
Do not do not so that the sense of it do not underestimate me is applicable not only to students or the young children, but it also applies to adults at every level of learners.
So I consider myself as do not underestimate me.
Absolutely. Yes, absolutely not. And no, and to any of the listeners out there, you know, I want them to own it to, you know, to not to not hide away sometimes, but to really, you know, own who you are and be so proud and to and to and to also, you know, remind yourself I'm not worth being underestimated.
I have value.
I have to advocate for myself. So I have, I have a voice to speak up and I typically would say that I still may have an accent and my English may be somewhat not quite.
But give me time.
Give me time.
Well, I think you're absolutely wonderful and perfect as you are.
I mean that so much. So, so when when we when we know that we have certain areas of limitation, it's a matter of how to find a solution to become better while you also improve yourself.
So one example I would say is that I always make mistakes. For example, prepositions and articles, I don't know what I should use, though, nothing. I don't know what I should use with or of or.
I just whenever native speaker says, oh, it sounds about right. And I say I give up because I don't know what sounds right. I don't know what sounds right.
So, so what is important for even adults, experts is that when we say language, I don't think of a language as the technicalities, the conventions of writing.
It's of the.
The most important thing is ideas.
Do you have ideas? Are you are you passionate about your ideas?
Do you have expertise about your ideas? Do you own the ideas?
And then from there, it's my idea. I just need help with organizing, making an argument, presenting.
And at the end, you just need help with a native speaker saying, I don't know, is this all about or what? What is it at the end? It's the end.
But we think of it as the key of a language. So we again, we do backward.
Do you have idea if you have no idea that you have nothing to talk about? Right. But the idea and then convincing him.
So for that one example is that for any formal communication, including an email, I would ask my staff member.
What a doctor student or staff member, whoever to read my email.
So it makes sense. I have an idea and I know what I'm trying to say.
And I have an argument, but it has to be polished English. Eventually, it has to be sophisticated.
It has to be it has to be good, clean, sophisticated, polished English.
So that that's so I would ask people in my office read the email for me.
It's my honest request of help me out because I.
Now, what I learned from that experience is that my staff members or the students will say, wow, OK, is asking me to read her email.
And it puts the relationship much more equal footing of I have something that I bring, but I'm asking you for help.
Can you help me? So it becomes much more of recognizing that.
Well, I know my limitation. I need help. But but I'm helping you in different ways.
So I always think of that limitation is not a limitation, but it actually is an advantage.
Another example of a limitation being an advantage.
So when I speak with like interlocution right now speaking, I'm very mindful of the response or the reaction of a listener,
whether it's a large audience or just the Kelly, you and I, just the two of us, I'll be listening.
And then once in a while, I will see the reaction of a bit of a puzzlement or sort of like a like that.
And I capture it and I say, I'm not making sense to you right now. Right.
And then you will say, OK, say it again. Yes, I will say it again.
So that makes me a lot more attentive to the conversation because I wanted to present ideas and I wanted to communicate.
So I'm paying attention to my listener, the the the the the the interaction.
So that makes me much more humble about I mean, modest about I'm speaking, but I know when I'm not communicating and I'm the one who is detecting.
I'm not making sense to you right now. Right. And then typically they will say, you don't say it again.
So that's an example of again, an example of what is perceived as a limitation.
Now, she has an accent or she's not quite from here to know.
I can hit you hard. Don't undress me. I don't know my limitation, but I will turn it around to be an advantage.
I can I can relate to that a little bit from my second language is Spanish.
And whenever I was in the classroom, I would often ask some of my students sometimes, can you come?
And I'm because I wanted it to be correct also. And I'm also a dancer, a salsa dancer.
So now I always ask my salsa partner who's from Colombia or sometimes even my my goddaughter from Mexico or any half.
I have another contact. And if I'm writing something that is supposed to be more formal, I want to just make sure it is correct.
I don't want to mess up. I'll send it to them and say, hey, do you mind editing this for me or giving me some feedback on it?
But I really love the conversation that comes after that, because then we get to be language learners together also at the same time.
But I also found it interesting in my acquisition of a second language. It helped enhance my English.
Exactly, because that's the notion of a bilingual.
The more that you are aware of how language works, the more you pay attention to how languages work in different contexts and different languages.
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Are there new conversations happening where that curriculum is being implemented?
So specifically where they're having new different conversations now about the role of language and communication and what that looks like through the work that you've been doing.
But thank you for changing the shifting the topic. All right, here we go.
It made me think about that immediately.
But you know, I bet you that whenever the educators are going through the standards and are implementing this through the lens that you've given us currently right now, I'm sure that it has to encourage a change in conversation or a change in thought.
So the so the standards, the science standards were released that came out in 2013.
And it's it was at the time a decade ago, it was a pretty bold movement of saying that students are doing science and engineering rather than teachers are telling students or students are reading about science.
It means a shift. That's a big shift. Yes, big shift. It's just a flip there. Right.
I'm not learning about science. When you say learning about science, that means typically reading about science from textbook.
And that's why we focus so much on vocabulary and grammar, because it's a reading about.
But now I'm doing science and I'm doing engineering and it's a flip. And it was quite a challenge in the thinking of science educators and and it also influenced the two other STEM subjects, computer science and data science.
So in science, it's practices. Students are doing science and by doing science that they are learning as a product.
And the same thing about the students are doing computer science. The students are doing engineering. Students are doing.
Now, at the time, that's when the gap was between science standards and English language development standards that science was students are doing.
But then the language education with the students and learning vocabulary and grammar.
And if OK, if you don't have language English, then you have to do what pre teaching front loading.
Learning some vocabulary and learning grammar before you come, pull in and pull out.
But it's that's where the front loading and front teaching and pre teaching and vocabulary and grammar focus comes in.
So there was that gap. So in our case, we said, all right.
We had a science scientists, science educators.
We also had experts in second language acquisition or applied linguistics.
So it's a collaboration of science and language communities, both education and discipline.
And because we studied from science, we say that, well, we are we we are developing instructional materials where students are doing science.
And when we say students, meaning the English learners at the time, now multilingual learners are doing science, just like.
But the people will say, but they don't have English or they are doing science.
They don't have English, but they're using any modes of communication to communicate ideas.
What does that mean? They are not just a drawing airplane, but they are drawing a model to explain why they are.
They are they are just using the all the investigations to collect data.
And you don't have to say expand or contract or fancy terms.
It just is that the same go up, go down, draw arrows, arrows going up.
So think about it. There was a could be cause.
A is a causing B. It's a Cupid's Cupid's arrow.
And Cupid started who is doing cause and effect like that, which is every day Valentine's Day.
Who falls in love first? You or me?
Seriously, the arrow is a cause and effect.
Arrow could be also movement. I'm moving from A to B.
Yes, the transition or move. Yeah.
And arrow can also be just labeling. Look at here.
So just like that, we have a polysmy of words.
Yeah, a symbol has a multiple meanings.
Yes. I've never thought of it that deeply like that, but it's making so much sense.
Lots just popping and clicking in my head.
So it's not arrow is not just the look at here, which is important.
I'm indicating where to look at or molecules are moving freely in all random directions.
So moving is a direction. All random means all different directions.
But something is causing from here.
The point is that if you think of any most of the communication, that simple arrow, it is a meaning.
It's a meaning making resource.
So I may not use that direction or random movement or causing and all that.
But what I do know is that it starts from here to here.
And that arrow is my meaning to communicate science idea.
And that's where the beginning is.
And I think it's important that it has to be that way, because as you were saying that, you know, I was I was giggling a little bit to myself thinking,
if I just read about dancing, that doesn't mean I'm a dancer or I can do it or just because I read about it.
And you have to be the act of doing engaged and being that.
That's exactly the point. It's a doing science.
So when you do science in science standards, it's not about doing science, but it's about.
Well, I am very interested in knowing something.
Here is a phenomenon or here is a problem that I wanted to explain why.
It's a phenomenon.
So in our case, the let's say physical science is not about the structure and properties of a matter.
It's not that our physical science topic is what happens to our garbage.
The the system is not about our system of a biosphere eco the the hydrosphere.
It's not that it is as it matter if I drink water from.
From tap water and bottle of water, and it goes into where does the water come from?
The water goes through the mountains and it comes through an underground.
And that's what I drink. But when it moves, it goes into the air hydrosphere and then it goes into the air.
So this time when students are doing science and engineering,
it's not about learning about what ecosystem or Earth system or matter or it's not that.
What is the phenomenon that you are interested in?
So students that doing science by explaining.
Don't have English. They have ideas. They come.
And then they are doing science and they are using any modes of communication.
So when we studied the unit or the fifth grade curriculum, we said nobody seems to know.
All right, we are going to do it.
So without the benefit or support of English language development, the standards, we say that.
But think about doing science, but doing engineering.
Then what do students do? They are using language to engage in science.
So we dropped learning language as a prerequisite to instead they are using language in the context of doing.
They are using language for the purpose of.
So language in the service, language in the use of language for the purpose of a language in context.
So we defined that doing science, comma, using language.
And I feel like that erases all of the barriers of that thought of, oh, they can't do until here because unintentionally,
you're still not saying it perhaps, but you're still acting from a limited perspective.
Exactly. So it's not that you don't have English and you are not ready.
Instead, your ideas have a merit because your ideas matter.
It's not whether I say that the B. So when you do something,
something is a trapped open space and closed space.
And when something disappears, you may say, oh, there is a lesser substance or there is water drops.
And it's a condensation. The weight should increase and decrease and all that.
As an English learner, all I know is that it is a closed. Nothing gets in.
Nothing gets out. So the weight should be the same.
All I have to say is nothing gets in. Nothing gets out. The same, the same way.
That's all I have to say. I don't know how to speak English in all the, you know, the more substances and the banana is decomposed.
And therefore, while the water has is a condensation and there are water drops,
therefore there is a new substance and the weight should be more.
I cannot say it, but what I do know is my reasoning, the idea is that it is closed.
Nothing gets in. Nothing gets out. It's the same. That's all I have to say.
So this is where we say that in doing science or engineering or any doing,
what matters is ideas, not the language.
Exactly. It doesn't matter the level of proficiency to be able to be engaged in the content.
You know, language acquisition is going to take time no matter what,
but that doesn't mean that you can't be a hundred percent engaged and active and participatory in the content area.
So when you think about that, there's a simple language app, the how you call, how would I say amplification rather than simplify, don't simplify, but amplify.
So you start from the idea. So let's see.
Let's say something about that. Since we're talking about the garbage decomposing, let's say about the decomposing.
So we eventually get into decomposing, but the basic idea is that the weight stays the same.
The weight stays the same. It's the same, the same, the same. If I do not know stay same, I will say the same and then the same.
And then if you give a sentence structure, I could say the weight is the same.
Now I can say the weight is the same. Now I know that the weight is same and I wanted to say more sophisticated.
And so what I'm expected to do is the same is so in the weight is the same, but the weight remains the same, the weight stays the same.
And now I'm learning all the weight is conserved because I have an idea and I need language to be more sophisticated.
So it's the same. The weight is the same. Weight remains the same. The weight is conserved.
Now I understand what conserved means before. I would not know what that means.
But now I know because the same is conserved. So the weight is conserved and I may forget it.
So weight conserved. All right, that's good enough. The weight is conserved.
Now here is the thing. So once you know the weight conserved, then when I read a science textbook, it will say the conservation of a weight.
Oh, I just have to make the verb into a noun. It's just that from the same to weight is the same to weight remains the same to weight is conserved to conservation of weight.
And then conservation of a matter and the conservation of energy that that's how you build.
So we never say that English is not important or the sophistication is English is not so important.
Absolutely. It is important because that's a part of a marker of being a community member of the community.
But the point is where you start. The beginning is not about the language limiting.
Follow the form of the weight dot dot dot. I don't know what to fill out because I don't know what to say.
But once I have idea, oh, the same, the weight is the same and weight is a conserved and then it's a conservation of weight.
You don't eventually get there. But the starting point is idea.
You you have shared so much insight and wisdom, and I'm so just proud and honored to get to be here with you.
And I mean it when I say that you are a trailblazer. You know, I think anyone that that speaks up and can can, you know,
participate and offer insights to help us grow within the field between content and language acquisition, language learning, all of that.
It's just it's so it's so empowering because people like you help people like me learn more and understand more to continue in this field and in this craft.
So, Kelly, I just like to give me five or ten more minutes and you can edit and skip and all that. But I would like to just spend another five minutes.
So so far, for sure. You take all the time that you want. That wasn't even the end. But you are not going because I just can't stop thinking you.
I mean, information, you know, it's just really fantastic. It is my passion to do so.
If anyone is interested in listening to what I have to say, I'll be happy to share.
So what we have been talking about is current contemporary.
But the question is, where do we go after after the Corbyn 19 pandemic climate change, the all different types of pollution right now, given all the challenges that are inherently stem
starting from right now, climate pollution, the health. And it became it became just obvious through the Corbyn 19 pandemic.
Yes. And when you think about climate pollution, Corbyn health, these challenges are all inherently stem issues. They are all issues of injustice.
Yes.
So we have societal challenges that loom above us. And then we have the role of a stem discipline, the STEM education.
And then these societal challenges impact, minoritize groups disproportionately.
So this is a proportionally. Yes, unfortunately. Right. So I'm critiquing the science standards and also just the field in general.
And we have other colleagues who have been right at me, but I'm focusing on multilingual learners.
So, okay. So we cannot say phenomena about what happens to our garbage. And that is sufficient, necessary, but not sufficient.
What should we doing? We should say that. Why do we have a landfill in a certain community, but not other communities?
And that's a social justice issue.
And who are the student groups that would tend to live or reside or get affected? And one student population could be large number of multilingual learners.
So the science education or engineering education is going beyond disciplines of science to STEM. Because when we have a societal challenge, it's not a science challenge. It's not an engineering challenge.
It is all STEM disciplines are coming together to come up with a solution.
This is why that culture is so important. I mean, going back to the beginning of like people wondering, well, what's the connection here?
Well, this right here is one of the main connections because it's action toward justice because there are other countries and other communities that are, like you said, disproportionately impacted by landfills and waste and things that the United States specifically has created.
And so I think that this is part of what I was literally about to talk about is that justice piece and it's called to action of what do we do to help combat climate change and to reverse things that we have been doing and to help other minoritized populations who represent these countries to help empower so we can make changes globally and reduce this.
So here you just said that globally and activism, right? You said both things together.
So living in New York City through the COVID-19 and seeing the impact that the city endured, it became.
So here is an aha moment of another new chapter of the work that we are getting into.
So my family members live in Taegu, South Korea or Seoul, South Korea.
And being close to China, the Korea, South Korea was impacted before just a couple of months before the U.S.
So I would call my sister in Korea and she will say for two point five million people in a city is completely quarantined and we wear a mask and we cannot travel and nobody can visit us.
And I said, you must be kidding. How could it be possible? The whole city with a two point four million people were quarantined.
And I said, are you okay? Are you okay? Well, about just the two months later or three months later, my sister would call me and say, are you okay?
And I say, why? Because according to the news, just so many cases and infections and hospitalizations and deaths in the U.S., but especially in New York City.
So that was my personal experience of my family in South Korea and me in New York City and just reversing the course of the cases, infections and all that.
So it became me. Right. And that took me somewhat of a huh, we are in a different world because this COVID-19, an event after a century is completely flipping the upside down.
Now, I'm not going to talk about politics and all that. That's a whole different issue that I'm going to stop, especially in Oklahoma. That's what's happening.
I'm not going to go over that. All right. But I didn't say anything. I'm not even close to Oklahoma, but I'm outside. All right.
So here is another asset, asset assets that multilingual learners bring. What is it? Because it is a global phenomenon.
And if you present the data that is collected globally and how many cases globally of the COVID-19 and how many cases in each country.
So you say that you speak Spanish and let's say about your friends are from.
Colombia, Colombia.
So when you look at the global data, let's say Johns Hopkins data on coronavirus, what countries will you be looking at?
Colombia in the US.
Because you would like to know what it is.
Curious.
Curious because I would always look at South Korea along with US.
Okay. So this is an example of beyond the language into here comes a transnational experience and knowledge that these are not immigrant students who do not know.
These are the students who do know about other countries in addition to the US.
That's the asset beyond the language.
Well, I'm definitely because we all need to be global citizens and understand that what happens on this side of the globe can impact the other side of the globe.
And so I need to be considerate of that. It's not about the country from where I am. It's about me being a global citizen and be part of that review.
So multilingual learners, especially students are coming from different countries or students who have a family members living in Colombia or but or or Equator.
G-Layer, wherever.
Exactly. It's not a limit. In fact, it is an asset that they bring.
I would say another level of empathy as well.
That's compassion, empathy, global. So it's a global. And when you say global, it's a transnational knowledge and experiences.
So you are looking into how many people were impacted and how many people were hospitalized and infected and all of that.
And then you are looking at the data within your local community.
Let's say, let's say about New York City. New York City has five boroughs, Manhattan, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island and Brooklyn.
And you look at the rates of infections across five boroughs and you say.
This is not fair.
Queens has a lot higher rate of infections and hospitalizations compared to Manhattan or Staten Island.
I don't go there. And you want to say, this is really not fair.
My community is impacted. And that goes into what you mean by activism.
This is not fair. That's where the social justice comes in.
This is not fair.
And we can't wait until it, you know, for this situation, whether it be a COVID pandemic or for any other one, you know, typically people don't don't always feel the urge to advocate because it hasn't directly impacted them.
And it doesn't matter whether or not you're the one directly impacted.
It's because I may not even know who you are, but I still know that you are human and I care for you.
So that for that reason, I do not say that when children grow up and become adults or children grow up to become scientists, children grow up to become citizens.
I say, no, we cannot wait.
Children can take action in their own ways.
They are not. It's not when they grow up. It's not.
It's also a deficit model because they do not know. We expect them to grow up to become.
No, they are part of a global citizenship. They are. They take action.
So I drop when they grow up. That means they I grew up and I'm expecting children to grow up just like me.
No, they are. They are individuals. They take action. So drop it.
And what would you recommend to our listeners out there that are hearing this and are so excited to have conversations around our conversation today, but also about social justice?
What would you recommend a call to action to be or what a fifth grade teacher could do?
In their own right.
So we spoke about that. It's a little bit like a station. What do you say when you see something say something right?
When you see something that you don't understand, we say that say something because chances are that people think the same way that that's an excellent.
But when you think we're not alone. Yes.
And challenges are real. It's not discipline. It's not learning about or explaining the garbage. It is about landfills that affect some people.
And we should be outraged about why. Why some people are impacted disproportionately than others.
And it's a new ways of thinking about it's not. So we still do a bit of in the service of the disciplines.
I'm doing science and I'm learning science. I'm doing engineering. I'm learning engineering.
And I say, no, we should go beyond that. We should use science and engineering in the service of.
Those are science in the service of stem in the service of system stem is stem is necessary.
But it is not sufficient in solving the problem. Instead, we should be in the service of that.
That's one I would say. Particularly those who are impacted disproportionately.
The second is that even the current standards, it's more about phenomena that we think kids can handle.
And I am critiquing that we do phenomena that are sanitized from the reality.
We should bring the real phenomena that impact people.
So that's where the disciplines and social justice are just just embedded, inherently connected in the service.
And this is how we think about it. So during the pandemic, we would say that you should.
You should stay at home. I'm an essential worker. I cannot stay home.
I cannot. Even if I tried to, I cannot. We always also say that keep six feet apart.
No, I cannot because I live in multi-generational housing.
So my critique, the lessons that we should learn is that science forgot people.
The vaccines came out great, but it's innovation.
Well, some people may not say great, but let's say vaccines were great.
All right. Let's say something. But science or the government or the organization should have thought about distribution and access.
Along with. Along with. But it came out, but there was no plan of distribution and access.
And I think that. For so many, again, whenever they're not directly impacted, they're not exposed to conversations like this or to other communities.
Ignorance becomes one of those barriers. And it's just for me and in my opinion, it's so important that we are ever involved and engaged in our diverse, multicultural communities.
So we can learn more and be exposed and to really seek to understand.
So whenever a crisis or a pandemic were to ever, unfortunately, happen again or in just any other critical situation that we can be more cognizant and mindful and intentional and how we best serve everybody.
So we don't have these disproportionately anymore.
So you can see that both of the I'm using STEM and language education from limited and you don't have English.
So I'm keeping your vocabulary and grammar. And I'm so scared because I have no idea of what I'm doing to now that that was the before prerequisite because you don't have it to to currently.
We say that you are doing your part of doing science, you're doing engineering by using all modes of communication.
It's a language for language in the service of and given the challenges that society globally experiencing, then it is beyond the discipline and language to how we address these challenges.
And so this is what we also have become much more aware of the global north and global south.
Global north have all the privileges and advantages of using materials and all that.
But who gets affected global south?
We have to do better. We have to keep we have we have to keep having these conversations among all of us because it's not just it's such a it's such a shift, as you were saying, just on the pedagogical academic side of the thing.
And education, but this this is beyond education. This this impacts us globally and who we are as humankind.
It's not just the catchphrase of political campaign, but it is it is real because when I think about again societal challenges, the stem is at the core.
The stem tends to forget people.
And it is it is really matter of justice.
I feel like I could I could talk with you for hours about this. I'm so passionate about about this topic and about our students and about about this field.
Is there is there any are there any last words any last closing words that you would like to leave any of our of our listeners with?
So I'm I'm I'm hoping that I'm hoping that let me see any wisdom.
One is that.
Speaking of is a form of advocacy and activism on behalf of those who may not.
That's one.
The second is that I think of not the norm of what I do or what I know, and I'm an expert and I am speaking English to who who are the people who are the students and what they bring.
So I I I joke that English was my second language.
Now. Asset based language is my second language I constantly rethink of is this really asset or is this still deficit?
So that's the second.
And the third is that the distinction between discipline or academic to activism and advocacy is a very thin, much thinner now.
Because it's on behalf of the serving and using any means, including disciplines on behalf of.
So it's activism and I hope that we we are committed to doing rather than not despair and you know, but but doing because there is no other way but keep doing and improving and do better.
I think we have to.
We we we definitely have to and you have been such an incredible servant leader at the same time and I want to thank you again for your service.
It's inspiring to hear your story.
And the fact that you're so humbled and you don't put yourself first, it's I can tell just in the conversation and then your energy about, you know, really considering others and putting others first and your service has contributed enormously into not just the science field, but the education field and most specifically in the field of multicultural and multilingual education.
And so as a practitioner in that and as a researcher in that I want to say thank you for all of your contributions. And I really appreciate the contributions that you've left with us today.
And it is my pleasure and honor to speak with you and thank you for being a good host and listening and communicating and joining the conversation together.
It really has been really wonderful to speak with you.
Thank you. Well, it's, it's been my honor and it's been my pleasure and to all of the listeners out there. I hope that you have enjoyed this incredibly enriching conversation from the incredible Dr.
Elke Lee. And just so you know, we will have her bio in the description of the podcast as well as some links to some of her research as well as her most recent article with Dr. Scott Grayton, which is called Transforming STEM by Focusing on Justice.
And I encourage all of you to research more articles from these amazing authors, most specifically Dr. Lee's and she is our incredible guest today, but also to find your next action step wherever you are and whatever that looks like to continue in this service that we're doing right now.
So, Dr. Lee, thank you again so much for your time today. I genuinely appreciate you and I'm sure that all of our listeners do as well.
Thank you so much. Look forward to further opportunities. Thank you.
Well, listeners, again, thank you for spending your time with us right now. A big thank you to Dr. Taylor Tribble and Edgeskills who sponsors this podcast as well as our producer Mike Overholt.
And again, one more time to you, Dr. Lee, thank you so much. And to everyone else, I hope that you will have a great fantastic rest of your day and I will talk and see you next time.
Adios. Thank you. Bye bye.
Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe. Adios.