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Welcome to Cultural Connections Lab. I'm your host Dr. Kelly Forbes. We are here to talk with educational professionals around the world to impact and influence the education system as we focus on cultural connections and the education of multilingual, diverse students.

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We're excited to have you join us today. We sincerely hope that you enjoy the show.

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EDU Skills, transforming education, one student at a time.

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Welcome to another podcast episode of Cultural Connections Lab with myself, your host, Dr. Kelly Forbes. I am so excited to be with a dear friend of mine today. I met her back in August at a conference and I am just so thrilled to get to know her more, my friend, Dr. Heidi Faust.

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So Dr. Heidi Faust serves as the Grants, Projects, and Partnerships Officer at TSAL International Association where she supports English language teaching capacity, building programs internationally, most recently with secondary teachers and government mentors in India and Uzbekistan on programs in collaboration with U.S. embassies, ministries of education, and non-governmental organizations.

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Prior to this, Heidi has had several roles at TSAL including Director of Professional Learning and Research. As a former member of the association, Heidi was active in the association leadership by chairing both the Intercultural Communication Interest Section and the Social Responsibility Interest Section, and she was a founding member of the TSAL Diversity Collaborative Professional Learning Network.

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Heidi brings over 25 years of experience in education and teacher development from service in K-12 U.S. public schools to higher education and in international teacher development. She has served as a teacher, teacher educator, researcher, consultant, and author.

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She earned her Ph.D. just recently. Congratulations in language, literacy, and culture at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, and an M.Ed. from TSAL, M.Ed. and TSAL rather, from the University of Tarabo, or Tarabo, Puerto Rico, and a B.S. in special education from Kutztown University of Pennsylvania.

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I had to make sure to do that Tarabo if it's going to be Puerto Rico.

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Prior to her role at TSAL, Heidi served as the Director of TSAL Professional Training Programs at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, where she facilitated professional learning opportunities for English language teachers in over 100 countries in partnership with the U.S. Department of State, Regional English Offices, and U.S. Embassies abroad.

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She was the lead investigator on several grant-funded projects, including an ELT capacity building grant sponsored by the U.S. Embassy Santo Domingo and an American English e-teacher scholarship, which is now open, course development grant funded by the U.S. Department of State administered by FHI 360 to develop the TSAL methodology course at UMBC.

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Heidi is an English language specialist for the U.S. Department of State and has facilitated projects in Hungary, where she directed the 2012 Teaching Tolerance Through English Camp and in Turkmenistan, is that correct?

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Thank you for helping me.

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Where she conducted programs on teaching English to teens and to prepare English speaking volunteers for the Asian Indoor Martial Arts Games in 2016.

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She has also been a Fulbright-Hayes Seminar Abroad Scholar in South Africa and a Japan Fulbright Memorial Fund Scholar.

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Heidi served as an ESL technical assistance facilitator on behalf of the Pennsylvania Department of Education and has taught English learners from primary to adult in K-12 public schools.

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And she has served as a teacher educator in graduate TSAL programs at several universities, including Lehigh University, Wilkes University and UMBC.

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Heidi is passionate about equity and social justice and education and the importance of intercultural awareness and communication and collaboration.

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And she has authored book chapters and articles and taught courses related to these topics in a variety of settings.

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Her areas of specialty include inclusive practices in online and in-person settings, ELT methodology and the contextualization of research and practice in teaching and learning.

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Dames y caballeros, mis amigos, patores, to everyone. Welcome Dr. Heidi Fowles, my friend. Thank you so much for being here today, truly.

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Thank you, Dr. Kelly Forbes.

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And thank you for helping my pronunciation too. I needed to get some of those. That's very, very important.

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So thank you. And I'm happy that you're here too, truly.

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It's great to connect as always. I feel like we just connected immediately. And sometimes in this field, it's just sometimes you meet people and immediately there's a connection no matter where in the world you are.

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So it's just wonderful to be here to talk with you today.

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Well, I mean, honestly, for me, it's just crazy to get to be here with you to share the space. And it's true back whenever we met and, you know, for the list of our listeners, we were at a back to school eduSkills conference.

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And Heidi was able to present to some educators in the Oklahoma area specifically.

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And immediately I just knew that we were kindred spirits. And I'm just thankful not to have another awesome professional in my life from whom I can learn, truly.

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But at the same time, though, just another friend. And so I just I'm just truly enamored by you. I just think so highly of you.

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And so to get to have you as a guest with me, I feel really honored. So thank you.

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Thank you so much. Likewise, I agree that the connection is great.

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And to be and that's one of the best things about this field, I think, is the compassionate, caring and amazing educators that we get to work with every day.

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And so I'm glad. Exactly. Exactly. So I'm excited to just like dive in and to talk about my passion, which I think anyone that knows me or listens to this podcast knows I'm so passionate about culture and the role that it plays in all of our lives and especially in the field of education pre-K beyond the 12th grade.

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You know, and just how it even impacts what we do in our daily lives, whether you work.

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And I'll do a little shout out to my mama, because I know you're going to listen.

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No matter if you are listening to this and you don't work in the field of education, or especially if you are in the field of education, culture is this glue that really brings us together and really helps us understand more of who we are in our own journey and something really worth celebrating and learning more about overall.

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So after having just gone through your incredible bio and having learned more about you by just reading that amazing bio, just share about your experiences and culture and how all of that connected and where it got you to where you are today.

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Yeah, wow. There's a lot to say about that.

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I think culture really matters and it's so important that we understand it and I think it's hard to understand. We get a lot of messages like celebrate diversity and, you know, be culturally responsive but what does that really mean.

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And I think for a long time I was an educator who believed in that with all my heart, and I didn't know what it meant I didn't know how to do it, because I wasn't exposed to other cultures in a meaningful way you know I would get messages from the media or you, you know, can

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dress up like something or, you know, like, celebrate Taco Tuesday like that's not being culturally responsive. And we get these messages that it is.

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And I think for me you know really crossing borders, leaving home leaving the places where I was comfortable and going to different spaces and really coming as a learner.

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And being reflective on, you know, people are saying this but it isn't meaning the same thing. Meaning. Yeah. And so just learning to tune in to kind of begin to see things with a different set of eyes values are different communication styles are different.

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And all those things below the iceberg, they teach you about in cultural communication classes. Yes, they're really there and they really are you know they're the key to understanding culture I think is going below what we can see much more to the communication

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styles the values the meaning and the way that people interact socially.

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In the hierarchy and context. I can give you an example. Yeah, please. So when I was in Turkmenistan, I was, which was amazing because you know often people don't get an opportunity to go to a place like Turkmenistan.

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No, I'm jealous I'm wait, let's go back. I want to go.

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You know the culture there is is in many ways indirect and there is in some cases in the desire to save face, and not just in Turkmenistan but in many many cultures like saving face is important.

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So, in places where the culture is is indirect and their patient style. Yes, and no don't always mean yes and no, which you know tell us that and, and I know that I teach those courses but I didn't really understand even what it meant into like experience it.

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And so I'm in a hotel I'm teaching an online course. I need an internet password. You know simple thing. I go to the desk, and they tell me I need a little slip, you know with the code so I go to the hotel desk and I asked for the slip but, oh, you know, come tomorrow we

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don't have any.

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Okay, fine so I come tomorrow and, you know, oh they're not here yet.

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Oh, the next day, you know, and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and I'm trying to get on the internet I'm stressing out because I've got students I'm teaching I'm supposed to be online, helping them.

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And I find out later they don't have internet at that hotel.

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So, like in a US context they would just be like no go to Starbucks.

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You know you can't get internet here, or use your hotspot or figure it out.

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Right, but, but it was this like, oh, you know, come tomorrow come tomorrow means no.

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You know and I didn't read that at all and I was asking and asking and no one would tell me now. And the same thing and at the university wanted to use a computer lab.

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Oh yeah we have a computer lab you can use it you can use it can we okay can we use it tomorrow.

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The next day, you can use it tomorrow yes you can use it tomorrow so I come I'm ready to use a computer lab, and tomorrow comes and all the computer that's not available.

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And I later found out that it was because they had 16 seats and we had 30 teachers. Oh, I would have just said oh let's double up.

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You know because I come from this place where we have a high tolerance for ambiguity we're flexible we make changes all the time in other spaces that's not the way that people communicate or interact.

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So I was kind of bumping up against my perception of what those communications.

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Was it like a respectful thing that they didn't want it they didn't want to like, they wouldn't tell you know.

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I think yeah or yeah yeah respectful and then they don't want to say no to you because you're a guest. But also, you know, I think there is maybe an element of maintaining their own status yeah we have a computer lab, you know, that maybe it would be embarrassing to say no we don't we can't accommodate you right now.

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And so and I, of course, I'm just making assumptions about what I think was happening right those cases like I came in with my set of understandings, but I really needed to read the situation from a whole other set of rules.

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And that's intercultural patient. It's not like let's put on our sombrero today right, you know, like say some words in Spanish.

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It's really like you're saying this and I'm hearing this and is it the same right now that's so important. Yeah.

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So, whenever you're talking about like so I'll be, I love that you said first of all like you wouldn't have known like we learn about these things and we can talk about this until we're blue in the face right but it's not until you go through the experience.

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Until you start to understand that the things that we read about and we learn and so I think that experience part is really really important. And then the other part of that that you were talking about is that trying to you were coming at it with your contact.

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And so you were there for in your head, and not language based on this but you're translating like these experiences that you're having. That is an important takeaway, I think for anyone to listen to because if I'm being completely vulnerable.

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Whenever I was younger and I think all of us can probably like if we really stop to reflect for a minute which I think is a really important process for us to do as we try to understand our own culturally proficient journeys and have our own cultural awareness is that whenever we're younger though like you grow, you grew up hearing about

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Taco Tuesday, you grew up dressing up as something you grew up saying things that are culturally destructive like the low man on the totem pole, and you don't but but that's not necessarily the intent but it takes it takes a very intentional understanding, time, patience

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Reflection to start to acknowledge what those are beyond things that we actually read in our textbooks but how are we like what do we say in the teacher lounge, what do we say in our office behind closed doors do we continue that verbiage.

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And I was just recently somewhere where comments were made that I knew that the intent wasn't that and they didn't understand that what they were saying was being destructive at that moment and then so sometimes I even suffer in trying to figure out like how do I have this conversation

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whenever I know we're only talking for about 60 seconds or less but you said it but I really want to say something so quickly and so have you had any experiences whenever you were traveling but then coming back where you would find yourself and like thinking, wow, I used to think

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I was going to do this because I grew up that way now I've learned so much so I'm a more mature and more knowledgeable person in this even though I'm still on my journey to become culturally proficient but now when I come back from different places.

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These experiences really are alive for me through the lens of the other people that I'm around that sometimes don't know what I know or have had those experiences or exposure.

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Absolutely all the time. That makes sense. All the time. And not just when I'm abroad even in my own home in my own community. There's diversity all around us.

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What I'm saying like whenever we come back like we leave when we come back. Yeah, sometimes, and then you notice like you notice things that other, you're like, I was doing that before.

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Wow, I mean it's just, it's awesome to learn but it's also a very humbling experience whenever you're open to that reflection, being an onion that just keeps getting healed. You know so many layers like race and critical consciousness and culture and the language

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that we speak and the way we speak and where those words came from.

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There's a lot of words we use in everyday English that are really, if you think about where they came from, they're offensive to different groups of people and if you especially if you're a member of a community that's empowered.

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And you're using those words with people who are marginalized like the magnification of that impact is really something to consider and, you know, it's, it's hard because sometimes it's invisible.

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And I think for me what has made these things visible is having relationship, real relationship with people across different communities and listening and asking questions.

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Because there's so many things that I've assumed in my life that I'm sure there's many more I'm still listening.

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There's always there always.

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And so you know having those real relationship has has kind of changed my perspective in a lot of about the not just the way I speak, the way I think the way I interpret things around me.

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And I think that's what we want we want to be conscious. We want to be aware and we need to be reflective in order to do that and we need to have real relationship.

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So, one of the things we learn about and I teach this and sometimes in the courses when I teach intercultural is this idea of third space. Right.

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So the idea of like this is my cultural perspective this is how things work. I'm working with immigrants coming into us schools, they're coming with a different set of the roles and the values and the way we interact and somewhere in this middle.

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We're in a space where you know we understand each other and we can do it works.

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And I think that's an important thing to constantly constantly be reflected.

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It was very interesting to me working with parents when I when I first started working in English language teaching because I was a special education teacher and I got my master's in T cell right around the time no child left behind was passed.

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And I was running you know programs for the county. And I was still learning so much I was teaching English and I was also coordinating programs for the county.

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And I didn't know what I didn't know. And you know what we had this Title Three money and we were told to do stuff for parents parent engagement right.

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And I was inviting parents and I was like oh I know these things were, you know, supposed to eliminate barriers. So let's provide childcare let's provide some like lunch or food if they're working long hours, like, let's provide transportation like we're

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going to cover all the bases, and then we'll have this great class on like how to be a good parent to kids and K 12 schools, and you know how to integrate your students into the school and will teach the parents like so the students can engage right because our goal was

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to teach them how to be good parents to their kids. They were already great parents, and they wanted some different things for their kids. And they wanted to see their kids shine they want to you know they wanted to be a good parent to their kids.

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Because they didn't need us to teach them how to be good parents to their kids were already great parents. They were already great parents, and they wanted some different things for their kids, and they wanted to see their kids shine they want to you know they wanted to, to see what

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their kids were learning and it, and our, our perspective was so deficit. It was like we need to help these parents, you know, integrate, and the reality was like parents were already integrated.

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They were going to churches they were going to the community centers they were, you know, they just weren't coming to us, because we weren't offering what they wanted. And so we had to have a conversation like, what would you like.

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And I remember this was such a pivotal moment for me because I was working with a teacher from one of the schools was also a parent, and she said parents will come to see their kids shine.

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And so we've kind of flipped the script completely on our work and we ended up doing this young authors event, where all of the kids wrote a book.

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And it could be, you know, five pages one word per page or something like everybody could do it, but they everyone could write a book.

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And the teachers were helping students some did class books, some kids did bilingual books with their parents. Some did books on recipes from their home.

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It was the idea was a kind of share your culture but we didn't want to dictate like what that. Yeah, that's what you want to share.

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And there were so many beautiful things that came out of that but we had over 400 family.

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We showed up in suits and ties. They were calling us like we missed the bus but we're running a car and we're going to be there.

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Grandma's coming and so are our cousins.

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Like, it was night and day.

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And I was so happy that somebody had told me, like, this isn't meaningful. Yeah, you know, because sometimes people don't trust you enough to tell you when you're messing up.

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But we were we were you know we were kind of messing up because we were focusing on what we thought we needed because we have these perspectives that were deficit, you know, and so I can admit that, and I think there's a lot of teachers in that

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situation. And it's a growing experience to be able to flip that switch and and focus on an asset based opportunity, and to realize like what the great resources are that kids in.

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So, for me and that was early on in my career. Thankfully, that just like, you know, wake up girl.

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This is, you know, this is not the right way to approach. And I think that critical perspective. So, for you, because we do grow up in the states with that, all the time, you know, and I think having relationships and listening and asking questions.

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There's so much to unpack with that and I'm really like thank you for being vulnerable because I feel like we can't. If I'm not vulnerable. I can't, I can't grow and I can't help. I can't help myself to help anyone else or anything so thank you for that.

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But it's true though like oftentimes, we like find ourselves I think doing stuff, because we have like there's a requirement to do it so we're going to do it to you.

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As opposed to being like, I'm thankful for this requirement because it allows me the opportunity to do it with people, and to hear and to learn because the best thing I can do is listen, but you brought up a really good point that I think this is what's missing a whole lot

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and geographically within the United States I think there is this space for this but I think overall and specifically in, in, in where I live in Oklahoma there's not a whole lot for this but my point is if you go to Spain, for example, there's going to be a huge Plaza.

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I mean huge and everyone goes to this like third space, so we have like those three spaces like we have our home we have our work, but then here like we'll go to like the restaurant, and then we'll come back, or we'll go to the show and then we'll come back.

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But whenever you have that third base like that big Plaza where like all the kids come to play and the parents can sit at the table outside even though if they're not eating at the restaurant, because we can sit and talk and chat and then I can see people over there walking their dogs

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and there's all these different cultures around us, where the kids are interacting and playing with each other the adults are talking to each other from different backgrounds different languages different cultures, where I'm so used to.

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And you have to find the event to go to to participate in that cultural event or to be exposed to it or to go to that part because you can't find a place where everyone is together and so in other countries I've experienced that third space that exposure really helps,

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because that's what you're growing up with as opposed to a place where you just basically are mostly at work or at home. Yeah.

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Well there's silos and there is segregation, where you know we're segregated. And you have to get out of that you have to, but it's, it's a conundrum, because it's, it's not necessarily natural.

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The way that our spaces are constructed.

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And so you can't just walk into somebody's community and be like, here I am.

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I mean you can but I think you need to do so in a very respectful way. And we need to look for these opportunities where we are on an equal playing field and we do have time to get to know each other.

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And so I think like even just asking parents to come in for, for like conferences on our space.

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And so they're, I feel like there needs to be a little bit of us coming out to that, they know, hi we're here tell us more about you and 100% 100% because like 100% of your students that are going to that school probably live in that district.

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But not 100% of the educators that are in there, live in that community. Yeah, right, they don't live in that district. And so if we're not in the communities that we're not all of us like working together being exposed and again,

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all of us in that equal playing field like you said which is a really important point to highlight, then I'm just becoming more of part of the problem, as opposed to part of a solution where that solution being like, you know, like, we all are learning from each other

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and we can be better because of our diversity, and we can expand our minds and I know that from my experiences just traveling alone to different countries and learning about different cultures has truly enriched my life so much.

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Absolutely nothing perfect at all and not saying that but man those experiences change your life. Whenever you go to Cairo Egypt, Spain, to Central America to Bangkok Thailand.

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Those are very distinct different cultures. Sure, and it's good you got to get out of your comfort. Yeah, you have to experience other ways of being and I think when you do.

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You have to teach, you know how to be culturally responsive if you haven't really experienced.

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Nothing you need to travel, I mean you can listen to music you can read books by other authors that are you know that are from other cultures as well you can, but you need exposure to those perspectives, not just the exposure that is given to you in your

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life, right, because that's always slanted with with them, you know, perspective. And so you have to meet people on their terms and their space and listen from that.

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For me it was interesting, also talking to parents about why they do or don't come to school. Right and I think communities that do this well, it's very fluid between school and committed.

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It's all, it's all kind of a compass, but I've had parents say to me, you know, I don't come to school because in my culture.

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You only go to school if your kids bad.

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Right and I don't want other people to see me there, because they're going to think my kids bad but I'll send some money to make cupcakes or you know like I'll help you with the school trip.

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I'll be engaged but I'm not coming. Right, that was fascinating for me, or to hear from another person's perspective that you know you have my kids all day long after school I'm not doing your stuff, you sure.

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I'm going to take my kids to church. I'm going to go do fun stuff with my kids like don't tell me, I need to go over home.

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That was very interesting for me to hear from a parent because we just assumed, you know, oh we're going to tell parents, x y z needs to happen now it's an extension of the pool.

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And that pushback was like hey, you know, you already have your time, give me my time with my kid, we have other things that we value.

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And then the third perspective that I heard. These were from teachers in Puerto Rico, and I've been to some classrooms in Puerto Rico where your parents kind of came and when they helped the kids.

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They had walls like the clear doors like kids could come out into the garden the weather is nice. There's no substitute teachers at the school right like things were a little less maybe rigid in that way but also when they talked about coming to us

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they had to come to a locked door to be let in, given an ID, escorted in the hallway. Yeah, and they just said you know it feels like jail it feels like you don't want us there.

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And that for me was also eye opening, because they're coming from a space where parents kind of walk in, and is understood that they're the parent and they should be there.

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And all of those things without that perspective I wouldn't have understood, you know why parents aren't why they are.

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And then we hear teachers say things like well teach the parents don't count. Right. Well, ask why. Exactly.

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There's cultural assumptions that go with that statement that are really loaded.

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And the reality is often really different than what.

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So I think that was really interesting to have this conversation and really get to know parents from a more equitable exchange than hi we're the school we're going to tell you.

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Yeah, I appreciate like those specific examples though because it helps like put a name to it to try to understand like, because I, in my heart of hearts, I believe that the, like, the majority, there's always going to be exceptions, but the majority of people

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I don't think necessarily assume something negative, but you don't recognize that you are being negative or you are being destructive in the same way I was when I first started teaching, not even knowing it.

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I would say like, you know, no English, I'm going to help you or no Spanish or no whatever come I help you learn English or because I'm brand new.

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I just know that I've been told to do this and I'm just trying to do it. I want it to do really good at it.

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But then I was like, oh my god, you know, but the more exposed they become the more you learn you start to realize right right like it totally is an asset and so I just appreciate from 2000 forever ago until now, just like all have been able to learn.

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And again, those like very specific examples help. And I remember whenever I was working with some students, you said about parents like I don't need to help my kid with the homework I was thinking immediately whenever there were families, whether they be in Thailand, for example,

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in other Asian countries that were represented in my classroom where I taught and even working with some college students, university students. The idea is that well you're the teacher you're so highly respected you're so highly valued.

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You're the expert in this. Who am I to do your job and be that educator that's you and it's in so here. There's a it's very different between the, the, yeah, there's a there's a whole different side to that, where teachers are just like given the utmost respect.

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Where they, you know, there's a ceremony where they were the students wash your feet, for example in Bangkok or wash your hand, or, you know, to say thank you so much for taking the time and giving me this knowledge and versus other situations that sometimes I think

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you just turn on the TV and see that happen here but wow right I mean it's it's it's mind blowing. It's really shocking to international students when they come.

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I think, but it was also really shocking for me and for my colleagues to going to other spaces where there is that understanding of the teacher and and trying to kind of understand the role of student centered learning, and the teacher as a guide and

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facilitator and giving a little bit more of that autonomy over to the student, but then also wanting to be respectful of a culture, and the hierarchies that are in place there.

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And also seeing, you know, if you go so far in the direction of student center that you know at some point that the teacher loses that their ability to guide and direct because they're, you know, being told by parents and the community and so there's kind

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of like this spectrum that is like very extreme on either side and so it's very interesting to reflect on that. But then also to be culturally respectful. When you're, you know, importing this research based pedagogy from the United States other spaces, you have to

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have an understanding of like, where's it going, how's it going to be. And I think that for me has also been a key learning is that I'm not going to come in there and say, here's what you should do and we have all the answers right is what we do in our context

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and that isn't necessarily going to work. Right. And so it needs to be an equitable partnership where teachers who are the experts of their own context can take these research based is for curriculum or materials or whatever, but they're going to need to marry

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them with their own contacts.

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We are the experts in that space. Yes. And that's not something they teach us in schools right you know like the teacher knows and the teacher tells you or whatever but then coming in as a guest and someone else's space have to understand their content.

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And that came up for me a couple times on projects we were working with, you know, the most extreme were in spaces that were, you know, very highly regulated. And we were bringing in you know interactive teaching methodologies, where we want students

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to talk to each other, and we want students to play games and move around the classroom. And if you might have a principal who thinks that the classroom should be orderly that only the teacher should speak and they should copy, you know, the notes, or doing the book that

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the teacher could get fired, because it's seen as them not being able to control the class right, you can't just come into a space like that and say this is what you should do. Everyone should you know be moving around and noise is okay.

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Because in that space, it's not okay. And so we know that practicing English requires that students use it that they speak and they communicate so the research is there, we have to marry the research with culture.

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And so that's one of the teachers in the stage on the stage, so to speak, right, which you know, is not in line with a lot of the methodology that's coming out of the US and other Western countries.

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But it's in the middle space, where that teacher can begin to engage students and, you know, help the principal understand the value of students being and help the students understand that they're not going to get in trouble at least, you know, and so that

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I think some, some collaboration and some reflection about, here's what I know, here's where I am. And how am I going to make it. Yeah. And I think any trainer or any teacher educator who's going into it's any kind of needs to consider the content.

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Just come in with this package and say, okay, yeah, this is what the research says this is what the book says like let's just do it because you have to consider all of those other socio political and educational understandings.

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And I'm glad that you say that though because like, you really do have to marry it because we do I mean there is research that we understand like listening speaking reading and writing collaboration working together project based etc all these things to help facilitate the acquisition

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of the culture. But you're 100% 1000% correct is that you have to marry that though with the culture that's being served in your community as well. Yeah. And so again, that's going to look different whether they they are from Bangkok, Thailand or if they're from Agua Caliente, Mexico, but I think it's going to be absolutely different in that context and so there isn't one package that you can do.

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And so, myself whenever I do go to schools and present or work with teachers or leadership.

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That's the that that's the number one thing is going through that lens of cultural proficiency and trying to or that like that. Well I love Lindsay Lindsay's conceptual framework for culturally proficient practices.

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What are my barriers and what am I not acknowledging or resistant to acknowledge. What are some guiding principles that can help me get there. What's that ethical tension where I recognize my unhealthy and my healthy practices, and then how do I get to that part to be able to

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celebrate that diversity to understand that to institutionalize it to to have it be that through line, and that glue that really holds together what we do in our school, because what happens in this school over here may be perfect for that school, but would be detrimental

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in this other school because of the culture represented. So my question with that kind of mindset is, how do we like how do we do that. What would be like an actionable step or recommendation that you might have for not just anyone out there listening as we walk into our

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incredibly awesome diverse and multicultural world, but for our educators or leaders, even specifically, who are able to kind of set that tone in the educational setting, you have any recommendations or thoughts or context analysis.

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Yes, let's talk. And you can't assume that you do. And I think that is the number one. Don't assume and collaborate. And so you need to have the voices of multiple people at the ball.

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You need to find out how things work. What's important. What are the needs. What are the goals. And what are you know what are the, the non. What's the word I'm looking for like that just the things that are going to be knows.

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Okay, yeah, you know, like the things that just that just we can do right now because of x, y. Yeah, I think you have to understand that I mean that we, we were in spaces where we brought in teacher training.

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The Ministry of Education gave teachers permission to come transportation was paid for. But teachers couldn't come unless we talked to their mother in law, to make sure that they were able to leave home, because their role in the home was so important.

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And so, you know, that's not something I'm familiar with. Right. You know, but in that context, you had to respect, you know, the, the way that the culture operated. And so you couldn't just say to teachers, you have to be there.

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And so, you know, we have those conversations are the people that we were working at those conversations you know, also because we weren't speaking the language of the folks in that space but you know that was important there.

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I wouldn't have known that if we hadn't asked those kinds of questions. Yeah, teachers hadn't told us, they can't just plan some beautiful PD and go give it to someone you have to it has to be, you know, a back and forth and some understanding of what will work

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what will work what. In other contexts I work with teachers, and we had an online course. It was, you know, 24 seven so they could be really flexible with their schedules. We, we were able to have a WhatsApp group so that teachers who had some challenges

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with technology could communicate outside of the course platform. And we just thought you know we had covered so many basis but then when we talked to teachers, we realized that they were teaching all day long, and then in their context they also were working in

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residential schools where they had houseparent duties at night. So they really only had like Sundays, which was their family day and this was you know 10 hours a week they're supposed to be taking the course.

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And so, if we'd known that ahead of time.

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We could you release them from parental duties you know so many hours and evening or should we extend the hours of the course so that instead of one week to do a module, you could have two weeks.

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And eventually we made those adaptations, because we began to understand the context.

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But initially, teachers just weren't finishing. And then the idea was well why aren't they finishing.

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Yeah, maybe they don't care. Maybe they just, you know, are too busy whatever we didn't know right, but what all we saw was this hole in the gradebook. And why did we not know you know right because we didn't, we didn't know what questions to ask.

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And so, and in many places like that there is a hierarchy where teachers are told, you will do x y z.

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And they're told by school administrators who are usually our first point of contact. And we've had to advocate, no we need to ask teachers and sometimes we get some pushback no we're just telling them what to do that how it works here.

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But if they're not able to do it, you know, then it's not working.

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Right, so having those voices at the table is really important understanding that content.

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And, and I think within that you have to consider language proficiency of teachers, especially working in different international locations, you have to consider technology and access to technology and digital literacy bandwidth.

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And in some spaces we were working with teachers who had interrupted electricity and water, so, or if there was flooding, you know, like, teachers aren't going to come to professional development if their cities flooded and so there were just a lot of things that we had to consider

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that we didn't, you know wouldn't necessarily consider in the US.

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Yeah.

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So, how do you create learning opportunities that work in context that experience those kind of things. So, all of it is really, you know, planning, being flexible, being respectful of what teachers are going through, and talking to people about, you know, is this is what we think

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is going to work. Do you think it's going to work? Yeah, not what will happen.

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So, having the conversation like that, that it's having those conversations.

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It's making sure that that representation is ever present so you can have those conversations.

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So you can work with, again it goes back to that, that without with component we want to work with people right, but whenever you considered like bandwidth like techno like all those different things.

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It makes me think about an example and was right after we were finally getting back into school a little bit from the COVID pandemic, and of course, being a Title III director of a district at that time, and working with the other colleagues in that district to try to have those

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conversations because we also I knew that we had students that had just come in from another country that did not have technology and they were coming in with two different districts I can remember where parents had come in with a with a new computer, and they

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never owned a laptop though before, but yet we were about to use all this online technology even though we were back in person, because we had already, you know paid for it, we had the contract for it. And so it was like this like super like kind of annoying

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thing to me I was like, just because we have like that means everyone has to just be even though like it's not responsive because we're going to teach how to use the computer because they didn't have one in their, in their village perhaps right or it's, or they didn't have

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there's not the vector us if we don't have the band we don't even do any of that. So to teach the technology to teach the platform plus you're trying to teach the content which you're trying to have language acquisition, plus you know that there's cultural things going on with the family because they're new to the United States

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and then they're also new to the state itself and it's like all of, I mean, yeah. If I don't have someone there across the, the, the table from me or in that same space with me to share and say hey, just FYI, just so you know, those who are coming from these certain

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countries or these certain backgrounds or these certain religions may or may not but however, a, b, and c and how does that impact you like, I don't think I've ever been in a leadership group we were able to have that conversation.

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Yeah, but I always promote them. It's the needed conversation, and I think, I mean, getting to, to the solution to things like that it's, it's that universal design. It's multimodal opportunities to engage and it's choice.

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Right so you look at what don't focus on what people don't have focus on what they do. Right. So one of our one of our key learnings was in a lot of places around the world, people don't use email.

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Right to phones, they use phones every day. So we had to shift our communication to, you know, phone based messaging, telegram, what's up, I would send 150 emails and hear nothing I send a what's up and in three seconds.

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And I get out, hey, can I call you. Right. And so, we were relying on the our systems and the way they work here but we really need to know what our power they are seeing information, and then being really flexible so in our courses we say you know,

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go into canvas and upload your PDF, or send me a picture of it on telegram and you know we'll let it count. Right. And so if you want to draw on on a piece of paper, take a picture of it, having multiple ways for people to complete assignments or, you know,

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multiple ways to participate was really important, and it doesn't matter how they get in the door, as long as they're in. Right. And I think that was a key learning to is, is work with what works there.

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You know how are you communicating now.

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So we had teachers you know with very little items in their classroom like they have a classroom in a blackboard. So we have to think about how can we can be communicative and are in our activities.

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We don't have a book we don't have paper, you know, and also understanding that when students come to the states from those classrooms.

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They maybe haven't had to manage papers before so they might, you know that might be a key learning objective is to learn how to organize a notebook and how to manage your textbook, how to keep your locker.

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You know, my students I students from Dominican Republic, who had never had a folder before.

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And then the teacher copied the book onto the board and they copied it into their notebooks. So when suddenly they were getting homework and out paper paper paper.

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Yeah, it just kind of ended up in a pile or went away, you know, and so our students really just needed to be cute in that like hey, here's how you organize it.

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Or use a library.

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Or some of our students bought the public libraries or the school libraries cost money, because people were scanning the book like a grocery store.

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And so, sometimes students aren't using resources available to them because they didn't use them before they're not sure how.

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And so, having that orientation of, you know, here's the library you can use it, our librarian just grabbed those kids with so much joy like yeah I'm gonna tell you all about the library and this kids are in there every day in their free time after that,

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you know, and they found bilingual books and they could use computers and you know there was just so many things that they weren't accessing, because they thought it.

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And so, I think just always having those conversation about what is working.

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You know, how can, how do things work in the space that you're in and how can we leverage those strengths and those ways of being. And then also kind of orienting them to other, other opportunities.

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It has to be like two way. It can never be an imposition like we know what we're going to just show you how to do it.

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You have to look at what is already working and understand that the people in those communities are doing things every day in their lives.

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And you know like, and sometimes it works better. Exactly. Than what we do. I think we have to be very very open and just, again I think it goes back to the understanding like we were all, we're all experts in what and what we're doing but whenever we share that together.

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Iron sharpens iron.

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You know what I mean. And so when it's so the experts that are at home that's the parents that have the first teachers that I want to learn.

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I mean my best professors were my student.

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Why can't that be you know like, yeah. I mean, wow, the insight that you get through the eyes of a child that comes from a different country, religion, culture, background and understanding.

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Absolutely phenomenal changes your life so much.

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And teachers are so creative. And that's what I love also that we, we switched over to what's up with telegram groups, which also continue the life of these communities and classes so you know classes I taught three years ago.

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And now telegram groups are still going and teachers are posting stuff that they're doing and like I'm going to try that looks amazing like show me how you did it. And so now we're constantly in exchange and growing, which I think is a real gift.

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And so it's much better than when it was just a course and it went away.

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Sometimes if it's a course it's a semester and it's like special education and it's going to be the cultural awareness like and it's all pushed in together so fast.

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Tragic. When you mentioned the communication piece though, though, in my also high five again for the doctoral program, because I'm finished.

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But I didn't know I was going to write the word like WhatsApp in my dissertation.

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But I feel like I should have Are you familiar with line.

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I'm familiar with it because I wasn't either. But whenever we went to Bangkok, Thailand, to go teach line. It's like that WhatsApp. Okay, and so it would be the same thing and how do I mean we don't like in Thailand you didn't text into WhatsApp, which all of that existed.

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You use line.

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Line is just another. It's a, you know, as they even say, same same but different. WhatsApp in Thailand, and, but I loved that though because it was even just being in that, that different app and communicating was just a fun living there right because that's, that's what you did.

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And whenever I was doing my research for the dissertation, it was the same conversation centered around text messaging didn't work, because in their community. And I noticed this a whole lot. And I've even had to be better at it myself is using WhatsApp instead for the Hispanic Latin next community

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where I am and my experience at least is that where I am in Oklahoma, and where I've told other places it's always, you know, and you can even hear it. You can hear like the ding, or whatever it is right.

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And if you can't have that two way communication back and forth because by golly we're going to communicate only through email. Well guess what, you're gonna have really low parental involvement and engagement and understanding and you're going to continue to be in that same cycle that you're always in.

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And so yeah sometimes doing things a little differently, but finding out what works locally. And that was huge. Same thing with telegram. It's another, you know, another messaging app that was the lifeline to our teachers.

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I don't even know that one. It's just like what's up except, except actually one thing about it that is a little different is that your data isn't stored on your phone it's stored in cloud. Okay, that doesn't take up everything on your phone, which is night.

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You know, and not that this is necessarily like all in the same vein but again being in Thailand and I bring that back this is different hemisphere I mean it's very very different right.

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And seeing the accessibility that people have they can go into 7-eleven and get your cell phone. You can pay some money right there and just have access to it. So I think about that access here so whenever we talk about that I guess I can start sorry diversity equity inclusion and access.

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Yeah, that's a really big part of it is like how are we even trying to provide access to this and being culturally responsive in that. I'll do a quick shout out to our sponsor, Edgeskills, but I do that because whether it be Edgeskills or any other platform that you have a student information system if you're in pre K through 12 or whatever that is in your job whether it's in education even out of education it doesn't matter, but just to be able to figure out who is in my community.

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Who am I really serving, you can go in and you can look through I'm sure some sort of a platform that your district or university or your job might have, you can see who's coming in from what countries are they.

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And then you can start to go from there and be like okay like let's like as a collective group of people here like let's do some research like let's try to understand what culture might be like in Guatemala versus even El Salvador because guess what those are two different countries.

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There's going to be different cultures. There's different cultures even within cultures but that first step I think is taking the opportunity to truly stop, go back to whatever platform you have, look and see who's represented in my school, who's represented in my district, and then myself as the educational professional

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need to take the ownership to participate with and do my own research with myself and my, my text and my books, the internet, but also my friends, my community, the people that were all around and really coming together around that table to have this conversation so I can make better decisions

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and respond more appropriately, and not lose communication in the process. Absolutely. And I think there's, there's two things that you said that kind of made me.

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Well there's two things I was thinking as you were talking like the one is just who's there is not right. Who's not with me who's not engaged she's not participating.

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And why is it really important question to ask because we can feel like we're doing a great job because a lot of people are engaged or there's always those kids that are raising their hands right but like who's not.

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Yes, if we know that we have five different distinct cultures represented in three or only showing up.

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I need to be able to understand enough of the five figure out how do I get these other two to still participate because you're, you're exactly right. But I think the other piece is that culture is so complicated that you can't just say like oh they're from Mexico they've got a Mexican culture right because

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there's like a million versions of what that might look like depending on you know who are their parents. How did they grow up there's the history. There's so much language, and so you can have three kids from Mexico, one who speaks Spanish as a second language or

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a second language, right, who maybe has an indigenous background, who maybe who is a mother who's from Australia, like who knows right because it's a global world now so I think culture is complicated and I don't think we're ever going to be able to like, in it.

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Right, right. So, we need to be more intentional, but we just need to be more purposeful and intentional. You know, it's the same thing here, right, even within the United States of America and 2023 today California to New York to Florida to Oklahoma, where we are right here in Virginia

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the dialect is different, the words are sometimes different, the culture is different, you pay five cents for a plastic bag here and you do not in Oklahoma you got to make sure you might have to pay to pee in Mexico but you don't have to here, like there are just so many differences

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and it goes back to that understanding that even within a US culture they're so varied. Even if you went to any other culture there's culture within that culture, even for myself, part of the LGBT, UIA2S plus community, there's, there's just with all of that right there's automatically

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when you hear that so much diversity within that culture, right, as well so I'm just glad that you say that because they have to also look about like you said, who's not.

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It's so personal. And I think there's, I'll think of the lady who said that there's a TED talk. Yeah, I love TED talk. I'm a TED talker. She said really stuck with me because she, she was a person who you know her parents were born in Nigeria, and they lived in

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England, but she grew up in Boston and, and, you know, she's lived in other spaces and she said you know every time someone introduces me it's a lie. Like they will say she's like a Nigerian British citizen from Boston and she said but really you know I'm from this

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place. Here's where I'm local. Right. And so she talks about kind of identity and culture as a part of being local, and a space where you feel at home, regardless of like what your nationality or your, you know, place of origin, or language.

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It really is about, you know, how you fit into this and multiple other spaces. Right. And so to say that a student who's born here to Mexican parent is Mexican might not really be true, or might be true, depending if they've gone back or not or if their

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parents have tried to, you know, teach them how to be more American or if they speak their own language. You know, so we can never make those assumptions, and people, the families are hybrid and people are mobile and so it's complicated.

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Yeah, that's the beauty of it is it's beautiful and I think it's a date, there's a trap, we can say like oh Mexican culture let's look it up.

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Right. Uh huh. It's XYZ but it's not. Of course not. It's XYZ and ABCDEFG.

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H-I-J-K. Yeah. And all those other, you know, letters that we don't even have in the outfit.

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So, that's the other space about being culturally responsive is constantly reflecting and you're constantly trying to keep your assumptions in check. You can look at general patterns. But I think also people, if I say to you what's your culture, how are you going to articulate that?

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It's really complicated. My culture at work, my culture at home, my culture when I'm with my friends, my culture when I'm with my family. There's so many layers.

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And so, I think it's like a moving target to say like let's be culturally responsive.

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It's a moving target.

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It's really hard. It's deep and it's complicated and there's not an answer. There's not one textbook you can go get. There's not one experience you can have. It's ongoing. It's every day. And even like you said, you were just describing that you have a different culture based on where you work, based on where you live, based on where you go eat, and based on where you go just hang out.

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Yeah. Maybe, right? Yeah, it's very different for me when I'm home with my family.

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And, you know, it's a different, the different way of being in my home family than who I am in my own space. Yeah, even just in the same town, I think.

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So, I think some of the keys maybe to distill it is to really understand the context you're working in, understand the values and the hidden rules or expectations, but be flexible, be open minded and be a good listener.

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You know, ask questions.

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So sorry listeners, that was my alarm. I had to, I'm supposed to, it automatically does it, but I had to remind her to check in for a flight.

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Where are you going? I left home.

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Am I just staying here with you? Yeah, stay forever.

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So funny. But it's true though about just how we do act different or we do have different, I guess personalities I think whenever we are in our different areas.

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I know that I, like my behavior changes around different cultures that I'm in, or even within the locale of where I am.

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But I've noticed that about myself, right? So if I'm in an English only dominant English speaking group that is maybe from one certain area, like my behavior is one way, but when I'm with like, mi amigo Latino, I'm like, I don't know.

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And what's ironic though is that I remember in my very first master's degree that I got that they asked the question, like, what culture do you feel most included or most a part of if you were to, you know, there was like an opening question or an icebreaker or something.

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I remember thinking like, I mean, again, it's all diverse, everything's diverse, but I was like, kind of like the Hispanic Latinx culture, like honestly, but I'm just a guy from Tulsa, Oklahoma that didn't have any reason to know Spanish if it weren't for my awesome teachers, Senora Atkins in high school that helped me get to this point, right?

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And so then I consider that related to my students whenever I first started teaching. Again, I call them my best professors ever, and at the time I didn't know it, but I knew it.

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But now that I'm reflecting on like, wow, but seven countries and eight languages represented within four walls of a classroom.

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It's so incredible to be able to experience all of that and then to go back and reflect and see how the culture changes as as multi layered as it is, as it's a growing process.

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I was we were on this continuum every single day.

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You can start to notice, though, whether it be in our personal lives, work, the home, the restaurant, whether it be the people that were around, or again, those that were serving our actions become different.

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And whenever you start to recognize that time to reflect upon the how does that impact me in my role? How does that impact me in my service?

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Sure. And then the decisions that you're making. And I think that's a huge thing to think about for students, for parents, kids, especially for people who are maybe bi-cultural or, you know, living in two distinct cultural groups at the same time.

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Right. The expectations of my mother and the expectations of my teacher might not align.

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Right. And who am I going to honor if I'm a kid? Right. You listen to your parents, you listen to your teacher. Right.

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But if what they're saying is your teacher saying is, you know, be individual and shine and be you and your parents are saying blend in with the class and don't come home with, you know, being the top student because, you know, you're going to make other kids mad.

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Right. That's just one example. But I mean, there are sometimes conflicting values. And if you're living in both spaces, you have to decide who am I going to be today? I'm going to be my American me or my, you know, whatever other, you know, cultural group I'm from.

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Am I going to be that? Am I going to be them both at the same time and honor them equally? That can cause some inner conflict.

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Like, I don't want people to have to choose.

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That's reality, though, because it's a it you're going to maybe disappoint someone based on your decision. If if you can only make one decision and it, you know, it's going to be in line with this culture or that culture.

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But it is possible. Wouldn't you say it is possible to create it? Oh, it's a hard challenge. And it's a very difficult challenge that most people are not willing to do.

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Most people don't have the strength for it. And if they do, they don't have the desire to do it. But I think, again, whenever you.

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Whenever it's an inclusive atmosphere, an inclusive situation, and if we're all learning together and we create that space, I don't have to be straight here and there.

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Now there might be a law.

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That comes out, but it didn't change that though, right. And so you don't have to be.

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Yeah.

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I've been in spaces before whenever all the cultures came together. Right. And I've been in space before where there was an obviously a dominant culture and you could tell.

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But to your point about bicultural, right. Those that we serve here have to be at least minimally bicultural, if not like you just said, multicultural.

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And I think that's just an important thing to remember is that we can create that space, but it's going to take a lot of hard work and it's not going to be perfect, probably ever.

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But you can find where there is a place that you know is trying versus a place that you know.

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Absolutely. Absolutely. There needs to be the effort to end to acknowledge the tension that that creates a lot of anxiety and for students, individuals in trying, you know, of course, you know, America would love immigrants to assimilate, right.

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But of course they're going to keep the best parts of themselves that aren't American, right. They are going to keep their alignment with their cultures and they're going to adopt parts of American culture that work for them.

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But that sometimes those things are are jiving really well nicely together and then sometimes it's that conflict.

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And I think like I even saw it I saw when I was in Japan, because in Japan, the, the emphasis is always on the group. Right. It's always on the group you don't raise your head about group.

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And I remember someone told me it was a, I think, an idiom or something that was like that you know the nail that rises above gets hammered down right.

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It looked like that you know I grew up in a very individualistic space. I'm a creative person I work around the rules sometimes.

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And, you know, that's just always who I've been and I just remember this one situation where, oh there were people we were there as a teacher group.

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There were people who were designated to help us with the language barrier like at night if you wanted to go do something or they could help us with directions or whatever and so the Tyco drummers are playing across the street from us and the concert was free.

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At like 7pm on Tuesday.

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But Tuesday night was group practice night for the skit we were going to do about the city that we went to each group went to a different city.

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So, we decided like hey let's practice in the morning and then we could go to the show at night so our group practice we're ready. I remember going to the lady and saying like hey could you help us get to, you know, we still need a ticket, but it was free.

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Get a ticket to see Tyco drummers on Tuesday and she said, Oh, I'm sorry you know Tuesday night.

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And I said oh yeah but you know we already practiced. And so we're ready and I remember her. This is like, you know, it took me a minute because I wasn't reading the cultural situation very well the beginning she just said, Oh, Tuesday night's group practice night.

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And I was like, Yeah, we finished. And so we don't you know we don't need to do group practice night on Tuesday, and she said, Oh really.

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Tuesday night's group practice day. And then you know of course naive me I'm thinking well maybe she doesn't understand my English that well. So I'm trying to like, explain or act out. And then I realized like, she's telling you no.

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Right. And that's again that indirect communication she's not going to say no, because I'm a guest.

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She's like, Tuesday night is group practice night. Like she's clearly telling me no many many times but I'm not reading it, because in the US we would just be like no you can't.

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Right. But in the culture she was so polite and you know patient with me.

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And then some of the people, the other Americans in my group, of course, were like, well, let's just go anyway, like, right, it's just right across the street and it's free.

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It's a thicket right. So there's this like American sense of just work around it flexibly because that's what we do. But there was this Japanese expectation of staying with the group, but also a high level of politeness and a high level of respect.

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Check in for that Blake. High level of politeness and respect. I am so sorry but hey, at least you know we're real, like we're just real humans.

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We're just real humans. We're just real people. We're just real people. We're just real people. We're just real people.

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And so I was like, I'm so sorry that things happen.

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It wasn't like I was going to embarrass my family for the rest of my life or lose an opportunity for a job or it wasn't a high stakes decision but I still had to make this decision, which you know which me is it going to be like this American me or the Japanese me in Japanese culture.

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And I had to choose like, am I just going to get what I want. Or am I going to be respectful and stay within the group and just thank them for being so nice to me and not go and miss an opportunity to see the national taiko drummers which was amazing right.

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And so, and that's just like one example of, of those conflicting.

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I'm not going to say, oh, because I think on any day I might have made a different decision, you know, like depending on who I was feeling that.

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Respectfully, you shouldn't go right. Uh huh. You shouldn't go.

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And so, I think we all have respect and we all have grief in every culture, right. And so, but I mean I get the point that that you're making in that, but um, but yeah you know sometimes it's not necessarily always a cultural thing, but sometimes more about.

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Do we do the right thing and how tired am I trying to be I don't do the right thing at all all the time.

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To that extent, like, it's exhausting to try to fit into a space that is different than what you're comfortable in. Well, and that's, yes, and I was, that's what I was thinking about as well.

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Yeah, and not that I was tired like I was only there for three weeks and it was a great opportunity. But yeah, it was like this is where I'm comfortable. And this is where I know I'm supposed to.

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And most days as an easy decision, but not always. Yeah, and then I think like I think of what parents and kids go through in our school systems are in our.

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When they have to make these big decisions and stakes are higher. Right. Thanks are often much higher.

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And so you know kids whose parents want them to be in an arranged marriage, and all their friends are dating, or you know like things that just are much more long term impact.

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So I think it is important to understand grain. Yeah, well yes definitely the consequences of making one decision over another. And what is the fallout and always having to make those choices when you are from your culture and you're in it, as opposed to having

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to manage to or more sets of roles or sets of expectations.

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I am. I truly just adore you, I respect you, I think you are one of the most incredible people that I've ever had the honor to meet and learning with you and having these really in depth deep conversations about this.

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It's so great. We keep growing.

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Why you keep trying to leave.

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I'm going to keep this in and we're keeping all of it in.

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Even a hiccup with the with the alarm. Thank you for being understanding see that we get some compassion here for the listeners.

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But you can't see that I'm making my hand. I'm making one too we have our hearts together.

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So in the interest of time because you are correct like this is, it's an onion that you can fill layer after layer after layer after layer and I feel like it's going to infinity.

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But again I think that is the beauty of it, but I really want to give you an opportunity as we're about to wrap up and close out what are any last thoughts or any recommendations or anything that's just on your heart that you want to make sure that you share

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and I just want to fully give you that space with some final words and thoughts that you might have for us.

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I think we said so much I think I mean coming back to be reflective.

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Be a listener, step outside of your comfort zone and get to know people who are different from you.

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And understand the role of context, you know, ask questions.

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Don't assume that you have all the knowledge.

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Thank you for pushing me to be better. Thank you for your service.

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I'm here at TESOL. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.

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I know that just by having met you, you've made me a better person so I really appreciate you and I want to say thank you for your friendship as well.

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Thank you so much Kelly, so nice to be here.

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Well, thank you again to everyone that has been with us this entire time listening.

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Again, thank you to Dr. Heidi Faust for being an incredible human on this planet and a big thank you to Mike Overholt, our producer and to our sponsor, Edgeskills.

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I wish you all a great day and I send you so much love and mucho amor. Adios.

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Bye.

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Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe. Adios.