1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Bat bi hiru lau 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Watch your back, watch your back 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Ertzaintza's gonna get you 4 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Watch your back, watch your back 5 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Ertzaintza's gonna get you 6 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Watch your back, watch your back 7 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Oh, there's a crime here 8 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,000 It's a coming from the Euskal Herria 9 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Gotta wash those red hands 10 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,000 It's the crimes of the Basquelands 11 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,000 It's the crimes of the basquelands 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,000 So our podcast is about 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,000 It's about usually crimes 14 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,000 Crimes that take place either in the Basque Country 15 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,000 And or anywhere in the world where 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,000 Any Basque person has been involved in a crime somehow 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Whether they're the victim, perpetrator, whatever 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,000 Exactly, and we also have a drink with ourselves every week 19 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Yes, we do. As we do this week 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,000 I have a beer, you have a wine, what are we gonna start with? 21 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,000 You mean which one are we gonna mention first? 22 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Yes. Let's talk about the wine 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,000 It's cold outside, it's really cold right now 24 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,000 And so red wine always suits me in cold weather 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,000 I have to get off the white wine in the winter 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,000 Yeah, it's lovely, it's warming 27 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,000 I'm just looking for the name 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Alcorta 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,000 Yes, it's quite a well-known one 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,000 Yeah, it's very common 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,000 It is pretty common 32 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,000 It's Crianza, Tempranillo 33 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,000 2013 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,000 From what is it called? 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Fuen Mayor is the name of the town where it's from 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,000 And that's in the Rioja 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,000 So it's not really the Basque Country but it's close enough 38 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Yeah, so Rioja 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,000 I think we already talked about that, right? 40 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,000 Rioja is a wine region that has both Basque and Spanish 41 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,000 Like both sides 42 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,000 And actually today we're gonna talk about the Middle Ages 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 When this region was kind of going back and forth between Spain 44 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,000 And the Basque Country so it will be slightly relevant 45 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 I'm drinking a beer which is from Gipuzkoa 46 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,000 And it's very nice 47 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,000 It's called Olaneta 48 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Yes, Olaneta, and it's from Herenteria 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Which is also kind of the region we're thinking about 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 It's closer to the region we're thinking about 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Okay 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Which is the end, the last part of the Pyrenees 53 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,000 As they go into the Atlantic Ocean 54 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,000 And well, this is where the story happened 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:13,000 Yeah, and today's special because Douglas is gonna give us a story today 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000 It is, my... 57 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,000 I can't wait to be the bystander and just listen and comment 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,000 Let's see how it goes 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,000 It's mostly around 1609 and 1610 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 And it's about witches 61 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Nice 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,000 Witch trials and persecution 63 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,000 Yes 64 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:39,000 So the Basque Country has become associated with witchcraft as well as Galicia 65 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Within the Spanish context 66 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:48,000 If we go back about 80-90 years, that's when the Basque Country was incorporated into Spain 67 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:54,000 And plus, during that first incorporation, we're talking 1520s 68 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,000 1520s to 30s 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:05,000 During that time was also when there was a lot of Protestantism and Catholics fighting in France 70 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,000 To see who was gonna win 71 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:14,000 So, and Navarre, which is the area we're gonna talk about today 72 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:21,000 Which used to be the old kingdom, the Basque Kingdom with its capital in Pamplona 73 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Religiously, we're looking at a place that had a lot of influence from the North, from Protestants 74 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And there's a lot of suspicion, not only of Protestants but also of just kind of folk religion 75 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 Whatever they're doing, anything that the Church doesn't recognize, it doesn't like 76 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,000 Okay 77 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,000 And so, well, there's a lot of suspicion, you know, they don't necessarily speak Castilian 78 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,000 It's people that speak Basque 79 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,000 So there's all those kinds of tensions and things happening 80 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,000 Okay 81 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000 So in this context, now, you know, we're talking about 82 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:06,000 It's about a hundred years after Navarre was incorporated into, well, the Spanish crown 83 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,000 There are two main characters in the story 84 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,000 Okay 85 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,000 And let me just get their names here 86 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,000 So, Maria de Chimildegui 87 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,000 And, well, she was born, Maria de Chimildegui was born in 1588 88 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,000 So, you know, not a lot of stuff written about her 89 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,000 Yeah 90 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:32,000 And she was born in a very famous place for witchcraft in the Basque Country 91 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:37,000 It's kind of known as the capital of witchcraft, which is Sugaramurdi 92 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,000 I've been there 93 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,000 I haven't, actually 94 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:47,000 I have, I've been to the caves and everything where supposedly they've done the deeds 95 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Yeah 96 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,000 And so, Maria de Chimildegui 97 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,000 So she was, well, born in Sugaramurdi, she moved away at 16 and went to France 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,000 I can't specify here, but somewhere else I was reading suggested it would be in Bayonne 99 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,000 She went to work for a family for a couple of years 100 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:13,000 And then she came back in 1609, during 1609, 1608, 1609 101 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,000 There was this guy in France who was also hunting witches 102 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,000 A witch hunter 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 He's a witch hunter and he's killing people, you know 104 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000 Yikes 105 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,000 He's not just making them confess 106 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,000 He's a real jerk 107 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,000 He's a real jerk 108 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,000 So this guy was Pierre de Lancre 109 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,000 It's a name he chose 110 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Although his surname is Arostegui 111 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Basque 112 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:46,000 He is Basque, he's from lower Navarre, which is actually a province in French Basque Country 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Because it's not as mountainous as Navarre, so it's lower, even though it's on the top 114 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,000 Yeah, that's weird 115 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,000 Indeed, and he's a bit of a bad boy 116 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,000 He had a lot of traumas 117 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,000 So he moved up to Bordeaux, chose a very French-sounding name 118 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:11,000 He comes back and he thinks now that everything that's wrong with the world is anything Basque 119 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000 So the Basques are the worst 120 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000 It's horrible language 121 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,000 He's rejecting all of his ancestry 122 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:25,000 He starts this hunt across the whole of the northern Basque Country 123 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,000 And of course, his problem isn't with women, it's with Basque women 124 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,000 Yeah, of course 125 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000 He's specific 126 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,000 Yeah, and this is going on 127 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,000 He's killing people and hunting people and it's horrible 128 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000 And I guess you were asking if it's during the Inquisition and yes, it is 129 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,000 I was wondering if it was something that coincided with the Inquisition 130 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,000 So this Pierre guy, you know, he's making a mess up north 131 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,000 You mean like in France? 132 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,000 Yeah 133 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,000 So he first started making a mess up in France 134 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Well, it's the French Basque Country 135 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Yeah, so he was up there making waves 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,000 He was, he was 137 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:12,000 And so around about that time, Maria de Chimedegui moves back to Navarre 138 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:19,000 So she's bringing all those stories that kind of the stress and you know, but also 139 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Also the stories, you know, the confessions 140 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:29,000 So the idea was if you confess that you're a witch, I can absolve you 141 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000 I don't need to kill you 142 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000 Okay 143 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:38,000 But if you don't confess to being a witch, then I have no choice but kill you 144 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:43,000 It's kind of funny how all the cases that I read were either in Galicia 145 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,000 Or the Basque Country 146 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000 Catalan countries 147 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,000 Yeah, the troublesome areas 148 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,000 Which are the areas where they have their own language 149 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000 Exactly 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000 Yeah 151 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,000 And weren't as incorporated into the state 152 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,000 Yes, yeah 153 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Perfect sense, makes perfect sense 154 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:10,000 These authorities get very nervous about the stories of witchcraft in their neighboring northern regions 155 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:17,000 And let's keep in mind it's less than a hundred years that they have taken over Navarre 156 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,000 Okay 157 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:25,000 And so actually the witch trials took place in Logroño in La Rioja 158 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,000 Which is 159 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000 I did read about that, yeah 160 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,000 It's part of Spain proper 161 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:37,000 And even there you can see that they're doing it outside of Navarre 162 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,000 Because, you know, why would we trust these people? 163 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 Right, exactly 164 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,000 You can't hold a trial there, you can't trust anything they say 165 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Or their judicial system, yeah 166 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Yeah, so they sent these two guys into the valley, into the mountains 167 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,000 And they start interviewing people 168 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,000 And trying to collect stories 169 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:07,000 They get hundreds, over 1,800 confessions they get 170 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,000 Over a thousand of those are children 171 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Oh my god, kids just saying shit 172 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000 That's for one 173 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,000 That was Salem witch trials too 174 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000 It was just kids going, talking about people 175 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,000 I'm sure 176 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:26,000 And then, so it was mostly kids 177 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:32,000 And in another case where the authorities went into the Basque mountains looking for people 178 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,000 They had a secret weapon that I have to mention because it's so ridiculous 179 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Should I hang on to my chapella? 180 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,000 Hold on to your chapella 181 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:48,000 They came in with twin little girls who could spot the witches 182 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Oh my god 183 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,000 No way 184 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,000 That was their technique to uncover the witches 185 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,000 They went around with these two little girls who could apparently sense 186 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 These two little liars is what they were 187 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,000 They were just two little kids that were like pleasing adults 188 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,000 They were just trying to please adults 189 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,000 And be like, oh yeah sure we can do that 190 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,000 We got this, yeah 191 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000 She must be a witch 192 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000 Oh my god 193 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,000 You're also allowed to be tortured whilst you're being questioned 194 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Of course, that's how you get confessions, right? 195 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,000 It's a really good way to get a confession 196 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Yeah, so you wonder why people confess 197 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,000 Because if you do confess, then I can finally absolve you 198 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,000 But if you don't confess, you're probably a witch 199 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:44,000 Really, who instigated the beginning of this witch trial was Maria Shimildegui 200 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,000 She instigated the trial? 201 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:52,000 Well, because she came over and then she started saying that certain people were 202 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Oh, so she's a bad girl 203 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:02,000 Here I was thinking all this time that she was some poor persecuted woman 204 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Exactly 205 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000 She ended up getting things started 206 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,000 The story thickens 207 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,000 Yikes, this is good 208 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,000 Well, let's take a little mini break and we'll be back 209 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,000 Okay, alright, we'll be back 210 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000 And we're back 211 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Yes 212 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:33,000 So I'm going to read a little bit from the witch trials in Navarre article in Wikipedia 213 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,000 And it gives us a little bit more context 214 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:44,000 So the investigation began when Maria de Shimildegui of Sugerarmurgi claimed that she had attended a witch's Sabbath 215 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,000 Which would be a nocturnal gathering 216 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,000 And named other members of the village being present 217 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,000 She confronted one of the women 218 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,000 Snitch 219 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,000 Well, I mean, she's clearly making it up 220 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000 She confronted one of the women she accused, Maria de Horeteguia 221 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,000 In front of the woman's family 222 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000 And recounted the details so vividly 223 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,000 That the listeners became convinced and pressured the woman to confess 224 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,000 She admitted it was true 225 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,000 And said she had been a witch since she was a small child 226 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:27,000 After her priest urged her to make a public confession during the next few days 227 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,000 Various others who had been denounced came forward and made public confessions 228 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Some of those under suspicion were dragged to the local priest by force 229 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,000 And threatened with torture if they did not confess 230 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,000 I love how it's just the vividness that convinced them it must be true 231 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,000 Yeah, they're like, wow, she had a really good story 232 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,000 It was very full of details 233 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,000 It can't be not true 234 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,000 Yeah 235 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,000 It's terrible 236 00:13:51,000 --> 00:14:00,000 So in January 1609, four self-denounced witches were taken to Logronio for initial hearing before the inquisition 237 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,000 And in this case, it's not like it's the civil authorities 238 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,000 It's the government that is questioning them 239 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,000 It's not 240 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Because later we discover 241 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,000 Which was run by Catholics, right? 242 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,000 It was run by Catholics 243 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,000 Yeah, nobody's good here 244 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,000 But the government was Catholic 245 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,000 It was, but it wasn't a church that was doing this 246 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,000 It was the government 247 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,000 The state, yeah 248 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,000 It was the state 249 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,000 Yeah 250 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Although clearly, you know 251 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Which is run by Catholics 252 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,000 Priests involved and all of that 253 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,000 Yeah, like come on 254 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:42,000 So not until the preliminary inquiries were completed did the inquirers inform the Inquisitor General of the Supreme Council in Madrid 255 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,000 Which is that that's where I was getting at 256 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,000 So they didn't, you know 257 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,000 Now they told the church 258 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,000 They have the preliminary hearing 259 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,000 And then they're like, oh, we need to notify Madrid 260 00:14:52,000 --> 00:15:00,000 So these two inquisitors in Logroño assumed the existence of a witch sect was a fact 261 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,000 And largely because the witches descriptions were in such close agreement 262 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,000 Everybody agreed, they heard the same story 263 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:21,000 Because their descriptions of the devil, nocturnal assemblies and admissions, admission ceremonies tallied with very few discrepancies between the accounts 264 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,000 According to these two men who were leading the questioning 265 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Well, I mean, that's how like judicial systems work today, too 266 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:37,000 Like if you have so many witnesses recounting the same thing, you tend to take it as truth, right? 267 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,000 It sounds good, but it's not because 268 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,000 Right, right, of course 269 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,000 Like that's this is the flaws 270 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:49,000 Because in March 1609, the Supreme Council of the Inquisition sent a questionnaire to Logroño 271 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,000 To be administered to the imprisoned witches and witches still at liberty 272 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,000 Okay 273 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,000 And certain witnesses 274 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,000 Okay 275 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,000 However, these two beautiful men didn't do that 276 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,000 They just administered it to the four witches that were in prison 277 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,000 Okay 278 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,000 Well, the few witches 279 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,000 So they didn't question the ones that were in, that were still out of prison 280 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:22,000 Because the questionnaire that the Madrid sent them actually was trying to catch people out with contradictions 281 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,000 Later on, this guy here, Alonso de Salazar Frias comes into the story 282 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:36,000 He kind of steered the direction away from assuming first there were witches 283 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,000 Okay 284 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Because that's what these two guys assumed 285 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000 They just were like, okay, who are the witches? 286 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,000 They didn't go, are witches a thing? 287 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Whereas Alonso de Salazar did was he was more like, I'm not sure about this witch thing 288 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,000 Let's try and he was an actual investigator 289 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Okay 290 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:59,000 And he so through him, we see that actually that questionnaire wasn't administered to anybody else 291 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,000 The guys already assumed the witches were a thing 292 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Okay 293 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,000 And the thing that Salazar brought to the table was that he was like, no, try to catch them out 294 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,000 What did Salazar have? He had Basque, he could talk to people 295 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,000 Oh 296 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,000 And he would actually converse 297 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:27,000 He was in a church and they sent him out to the same valley to do lots of interviews 298 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:36,000 He took people to the caves and nobody could say where the devil was sitting, for example 299 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 They kept changing the minds 300 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Wait, maybe he was over there by that rock 301 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:50,000 Yeah, like the basis for him to find problem with the confessions is as hilarious as that 302 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:56,000 Like this woman said he was sitting over there and this girl said he was sitting over there 303 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000 But then later she said he was sitting over here 304 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,000 And he looked like this or that 305 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,000 So actually he kind of brought some sense 306 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,000 Of justice 307 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Well, at least of logic 308 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,000 I'm not sure justice 309 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,000 Well, I mean, justice is based on logic, right? 310 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,000 You can reasonably believe something or not, right? 311 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,000 That's the whole basis of it, right? 312 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,000 Yeah 313 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,000 You can have to reasonably believe something happened or did not happen, right? 314 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,000 Mm-hmm 315 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,000 That's kind of the interesting thing, these two guys, the first two guys 316 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,000 You know, they were making so many assumptions 317 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Yes, they're witches, of course 318 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Naturally 319 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,000 Let's just find who they are 320 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,000 And then they were just, there were these classic questions 321 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:45,000 Which were like sometimes, you know, hundreds of years old that you were supposed to ask the witch 322 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,000 And then, you know, there were these silly questions that were no way out, you know? 323 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,000 Yeah 324 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,000 So of course they would catch them 325 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,000 Uh-huh 326 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And they would feel very happy about themselves 327 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,000 So this guy, Salazar is the first guy who's like, let's think about that 328 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:12,000 And people do say he managed to calm down witch trials 329 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,000 The mob mentality 330 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:18,000 Even for the rest of Europe after he brought in these kinds of... 331 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Because he was just like an investigator 332 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,000 Indeed 333 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,000 However, he was a bit late 334 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,000 He's not a good guy 335 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Too late to the show 336 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:36,000 He's not a good guy because he is part of the three people who eventually decide to kill 337 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:48,000 These events occurred simultaneously with the witch hunt conducted by the French judge Pierre L'Ancre in the northern Basque Country, north of the Pyrenees 338 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,000 His investigation led to mass burning of accused witches 339 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:58,000 He numbered about 80, over 80 people that he burned 340 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:05,000 There's little doubt that the news of L'Ancre's activities fueled the panic on the southern side of the border 341 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:13,000 And that's what led to this burning of these six people in 1610 342 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,000 It happened in Logroño, the capital of La Rioja 343 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:23,000 30,000 people attended this burning and the stake 344 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:31,000 The bishop of Pamplona was actually not happy with this 345 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:39,000 He wrote to the Inquisition because these guys, you know, apparently didn't even know Basque, the first two guys 346 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,000 Came to interview people 347 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:53,000 Who had all these people killed and so in March 1611, the Inquisitor General instructed Salazar to make new visitations, this time alone 348 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,000 Unaccompanied by the other Inquisitors 349 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:02,000 He was not to use pressure or force confessions nor to question witches about supposed accomplices 350 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,000 But he was to interrogate witches who allegedly attended the same gathering to see if their statements tallied 351 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,000 You see, this is very much what Salazar was always about 352 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,000 Well, I mean, he was like a detective or something 353 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:25,000 It comes out that although he was part of the three people who decided to kill these six people in the end 354 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:33,000 His doubts about the process weren't made public until many, many years later 355 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000 So we know about it, but he kept quiet 356 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,000 He kept quiet for a long time, yeah 357 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:44,000 And so that was when he went up and then interviewed everybody by himself 358 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:56,000 And he's a Basque speaker and there's a very moving part of the story when he calls this little boy like an angel, like a very pure soul 359 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,000 So somebody accused him, little boy 360 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:09,000 I think he was 11, his little other little boys accused him of being a witch and he denied 361 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,000 And his father didn't believe him 362 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,000 His father thought he was a witch, his own son 363 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,000 Yeah, he said you have to confess because that's the only way to get out of it 364 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:26,000 And he didn't, he was lashed on a bed naked until he was unconscious 365 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:31,000 He was taken away and then after this he was interviewed by Salazar 366 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000 Salazar decided to take him into a room by himself 367 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,000 No people pressuring him or looking 368 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,000 And he asked him to tell the story 369 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,000 He said, I'm not guilty 370 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:49,000 And he was like, do you know, you have to confess if it's true 371 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:58,000 And then eventually this little boy goes, yeah, but if I confess and it's not true 372 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:06,000 Then that kind of, he didn't say it with his words, but he's implying that defeats the purpose 373 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,000 And that's when Salazar kind of really hits home to him 374 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,000 He realizes these are very poor villages 375 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,000 They're very, you know, very basic, they get basically cruel to eat children 376 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,000 They don't get very nice food 377 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,000 And when you're coming to be interviewed by Mr. Priest, you get nice food 378 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000 And it's a nice warm place 379 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,000 So the longer your stories 380 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,000 You tell them what you want to hear, they want to hear and you're going to get rewarded for that 381 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,000 And that's the kind of one plus one that Salazar put together and was like, well 382 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:48,000 The whole system is broken because they're just confessing the cause 383 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,000 And later he talks to a woman and we see that 384 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,000 I read this interview as well and she's, she's, you know, she's a grown woman 385 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:02,000 And he's like, so why did you lie to me when he gets to the bottom of it? 386 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,000 And she's like, you guys came for stories 387 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,000 So I gave you a story 388 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,000 I gave you a story, I mean, I went with it 389 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,000 That's what you wanted, right? 390 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,000 Yeah, just pleasing people 391 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,000 It's a people pleasing thing 392 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000 Yeah, it was a very hard story to go through 393 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000 And I have a little less mention about Inessa Gashen 394 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:33,000 Who is a poor woman living in France and accused by Lankre of being a witch 395 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,000 Wait, who's Lankre? 396 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,000 Lankre is the guy in the North 397 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000 The guy that was in, okay 398 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000 In Northern Basque Country 399 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 And she was accused of being a witch 400 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Out of the 80 people he killed, thankfully she escaped 401 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000 How? 402 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,000 Well, she confessed and she wasn't killed 403 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,000 Okay 404 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,000 And then she came to the Southern Basque Country and was accused again, the poor woman 405 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,000 Oh no, twice? 406 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,000 Yeah, thankfully she was not among the people 407 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,000 What was it about her that people wanted to make her, take her down? 408 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:13,000 One of the articles, but it wasn't confirmed by another one, but another one said she had some condition 409 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,000 Either her eye was not right or she was 410 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Oh no, so some things you can't even help, oh my god 411 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,000 So clearly everybody was just body shaming her for some issue she had 412 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:30,000 And so I guess we should, at least I know five of the women's names that were burned at the stake 413 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000 And I think we should at least read those 414 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000 For sure 415 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,000 Maria de Cimeldegui actually did 416 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,000 She burned at the stake, the one that was like snitching on everybody 417 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,000 No, because she confessed 418 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,000 But then she snitched on everybody too 419 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,000 She created all the problems 420 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000 Yeah 421 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,000 She got off 422 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,000 So Maria de Cimeldegui was not one of them, but 423 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,000 Maria Bastan de Borda was one 424 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,000 And Maria de Sosaia 425 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,000 Graciana Chara 426 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:15,000 And Maria de Arburo 427 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,000 Yeah, this is 428 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,000 Maria de Chachuta, yes 429 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000 These are the five women that I found out 430 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,000 And the one guy 431 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,000 And that's the thing, I'm not sure if the last one was a guy 432 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,000 Well, tell us about one of them if you have some information 433 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,000 So Maria de Sosaia, for example, from Olleregui 434 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,000 I can't tell you where that is, but I'm assuming around Navarre as well 435 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,000 Oh, it says here in Navarre 436 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,000 She was resident in the town of Renteria in Gipusqua 437 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:53,000 And she was purportedly a witch of the same town as Aquilarri 438 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,000 Aquilarri is how they call the night Sabbath 439 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,000 Which is how they call a witch meeting 440 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Okay 441 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 So here Aquilarri would be in a witch meeting 442 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,000 So she was accused of being in the Renteria witch meeting 443 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,000 She was 79 444 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,000 I know 445 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,000 A 79 year old 446 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 Back in those days 447 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,000 She lived to 79 and then got killed as a witch 448 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,000 She died in prison 449 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:28,000 But of course, since you had to burn a witch, her bones were burned with the other six live people 450 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Oh, because she died in prison and then they just burnt her bones 451 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,000 Five people had died in prison during this whole prologue 452 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,000 Oh, so they didn't get burned at the stake 453 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,000 Five women were burned alive 454 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,000 She had thankfully died before 455 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,000 She died before being held in prison 456 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,000 As a condemned witch 457 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,000 Oh my god 458 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,000 Little pause 459 00:27:49,000 --> 00:28:01,000 So yeah, this I can't believe that 460 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,000 Yeah, it's really sad 461 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,000 An 80, almost 80 year old woman 462 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,000 She was 80 by the time she was 463 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,000 79, she gets imprisoned, dies in prison 464 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:19,000 You have to make a spectacle of her by burning her bones 465 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:26,000 The picture I saw of this very famous Sugara Mordi cave 466 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:32,000 I wouldn't have classified as a cave because it looks like just a big rock 467 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,000 That was like a massive rock that was formed a hole with a river 468 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Is this what you saw? Like a little river going through a tunnel sort of thing? 469 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Because it wasn't bigger than 20 meters 470 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,000 It's been years, so I don't know exactly 471 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,000 I don't remember exactly that cave because I've been to a lot of places since then 472 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,000 I know we have a photo, Ramona and I have a photo of us at that cave 473 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,000 But we should all go, we have to go 474 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,000 But was it more like a... 475 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,000 Well, it was a cave, there was definitely caves 476 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,000 So like black insides 477 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,000 It was like a big opening in the rock, right? 478 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,000 You can imagine there was like seances happening there or something, whatever 479 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,000 That's how they play it out when you do the tour or whatever 480 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:29,000 And the reason why I say, which I love the idea, is because it's become part of Basque culture 481 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,000 Being proud of our witches, of the Sorghineas 482 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,000 And you can find lots of little trinkets, you know, as tourists 483 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,000 Oh yeah, yeah, little witch memorabilia 484 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,000 So now we actually have official commemorations every year 485 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,000 And they dance... To these witches? 486 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,000 No, it's not witches, but women 487 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,000 That were sacrificed for just being, I don't know, pagan? 488 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,000 I mean, now there's just pagan commemorations to kind of affirm... 489 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Or just being women, or just being different? 490 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,000 You're bringing things to the table 491 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,000 I'm just saying what happens in Sugodomurdi now is they have festivals 492 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,000 Yes 493 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,000 They might, probably they will be thinking about women 494 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,000 I mean, we know the Basque Country, they're always... 495 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,000 Pro-women 496 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Pro-women, so I'm sure there's an element of remembering 497 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,000 Yeah, because we were saying that in the Basque Country 498 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,000 There was a lot of times when women were running the show 499 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,000 Because men were away doing other labor 500 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,000 They were out fishing, or whaling, or coal mining 501 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,000 So women had to maintain everything else 502 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,000 And the finances even, like doing everything 503 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,000 So it's a very strong culture of that 504 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000 And so it's a very strong matriarchal culture 505 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Because they like to say that it's matriarchal, but... 506 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,000 They don't 507 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,000 I can test that a lot of times because... 508 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,000 It's different, I consider it, you know, it's true that it is 509 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,000 I believe that women have like a say, and that it's respected 510 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:17,000 But it's still under a patriarchal... 511 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,000 It's under like a Catholic Church, or it's under a government 512 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,000 That's not matriarchal, you know what I mean? 513 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Like, these are all functioning within a structure or a system 514 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000 That's not matriarchal, you know what I mean? 515 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,000 Yes and no, because you assume... 516 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,000 But the culture is... 517 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,000 I think you assume that the Church won 518 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,000 And that's the thing that I'm... 519 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,000 My reading is different 520 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,000 I'm not saying they win 521 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,000 Wait a minute, wait a minute 522 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,000 Okay 523 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,000 Because what I see in this story is 524 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:01,000 The Church and the state, unsure of how much control they have over the Basque Country 525 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,000 And because they have a certain amount of independence and separateness 526 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,000 Yep 527 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,000 That's what... 528 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000 Yeah, and that's why they have... 529 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,000 They need to have that control over them, yeah 530 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,000 But that's what I mean, like, whereas I think when we go to that village 531 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,000 The women are actually in control and the Church has a certain amount of control 532 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,000 Or not even in control, they're just more participants of the culture 533 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,000 You know, like they're taking part in the culture 534 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,000 Yeah 535 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,000 And then have real power within that culture 536 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,000 You know, like they're either doing the family finances 537 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,000 Or their husband's out fishing and they're the ones selling the fish 538 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:49,000 They're the ones making sure that everything gets sold and how much money we're going to take in for the family 539 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000 And feed the family and everything 540 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,000 So it is threatening, you know 541 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000 It's threatening to other powers that be that want control 542 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,000 Yeah 543 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:03,000 But that's the thing, you know, like in more traditional Western European countries 544 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,000 You see women's rights aren't even allowed to have property 545 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000 Where I think here it's more... 546 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,000 Well 547 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,000 Generally there was more acceptance 548 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,000 Under Franco 549 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Yeah, but what I was... yeah 550 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,000 Yeah, I just think women's position was more flexible in the Basque Country 551 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,000 I think there's more spaces for them to inhabit it over history 552 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,000 And I think that's definitely still something I feel 553 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,000 No, sure, for sure 554 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,000 And people say it 555 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,000 Yeah, the word matriarchal 556 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000 People that live here say it 557 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,000 The word matriarchal implies a lot of legality, a lot of... 558 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000 It implies power 559 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,000 Power, yeah 560 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,000 It implies power over everybody else or like imposing some sort of... 561 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,000 It implies recognized power 562 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,000 And I think that's where we depart in the Basque Country 563 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,000 Where the power of the women is here 564 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,000 But it's not legally recognized 565 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,000 It's just a fact in society 566 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Yeah 567 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000 It's kind of, you know, I don't want to say... 568 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000 It's very much a part of the culture and the society 569 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,000 I don't want to say behind closed doors or at home 570 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,000 Because that's kind of... 571 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,000 It's recognized among everybody 572 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,000 It is, but in those moments like Franco 573 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,000 When in public you couldn't do anything at all 574 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,000 No, you couldn't have a bank account 575 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,000 You couldn't have a credit card 576 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,000 You couldn't have a mortgage or anything 577 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,000 Well, I'm not sure, but I suppose 578 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,000 No, no, for sure 579 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,000 Absolutely, for sure 580 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,000 You couldn't do anything without your husband's permission 581 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,000 Or your father's permission 582 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,000 Exactly, which is, I guess... 583 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,000 Yeah, I mean, it is a big reason why... 584 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,000 Yeah, I mean, you know, the language almost died 585 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,000 So it's a bit of a trauma for Basque society 586 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,000 And an impetus towards wanting to be independent 587 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000 And trying to sort of run your own laws 588 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,000 Separate yourself from... 589 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,000 Because, yeah 590 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,000 From this other culture, yeah 591 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000 You know, if you look at the 1610 occurrence 592 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:04,000 That is a way of the Spanish state trying to impose its rules on the Basque Country, you know? 593 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,000 Everything is about, you know, opposing rule and power 594 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000 And... 595 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,000 I want to mention this 596 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,000 I think it's very appropriate here 597 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,000 Although it's slightly changing the topic 598 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Because I was doing a course on Ukrainian statehood 599 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,000 And the history of Ukrainian statehood 600 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,000 And one of the interesting points they made was 601 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,000 Ukraine was just... Ukrainians were just being Ukrainians 602 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,000 But it was because of the countries around it 603 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:41,000 That it had to become a country to protect itself against being eaten up by the empires around it 604 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,000 And that's very much, I think, how I see here the Basque Country between France and Spain 605 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000 You know, trying to survive 606 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,000 And, you know, whether... 607 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000 Having a say in their own... 608 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,000 Destiny and culture and everything, yeah 609 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:06,000 So in a way that nationalism, that identity comes out of other states being next to it 610 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,000 Trying to impose their version of life 611 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,000 Trying to impose it, yeah 612 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,000 Because, you know... 613 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000 For sure 614 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,000 I mean, Basque people have been... 615 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,000 Makes perfect sense 616 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,000 They've been happy in the French state and in the Spanish state for many centuries 617 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000 And then not happy for many other centuries 618 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,000 But in a way... 619 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,000 When somebody tries to tell you what to do, it's like... 620 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,000 Wait a minute 621 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:34,000 I just love that attrition of the idea of the fact that it's the attrition between two states that creates another state 622 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,000 You know, where people don't... 623 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,000 You know, there's always this idea that we are one thing 624 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,000 And then everybody else that doesn't fit in 625 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,000 Yeah 626 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,000 Suddenly... 627 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,000 Becomes another 628 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,000 Has to decide what to do 629 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000 What do I do? Do I change myself a little bit? 630 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,000 Yeah 631 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,000 Right? Or do I... 632 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,000 That's the tricky 633 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,000 Do I go, well... 634 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,000 Actually, no, that's too much 635 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,000 I'm really not that 636 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,000 And then you have to... you find yourself... 637 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,000 Kind of forced to... yeah 638 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,000 Form another something, state identity or whoever you are, I know 639 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,000 But anyway 640 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,000 See you guys next time, do we say? 641 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,000 Yeah 642 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,000 So, yes, if you want to send us any stories 643 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,000 Because we're always looking for anything in the Basque... 644 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,000 Wait, you told me how to pronounce this word 645 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,000 Diaspora 646 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,000 Diaspora 647 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,000 See, I've only ever read it 648 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,000 So I never heard it pronounced 649 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,000 Diaspora 650 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,000 So anything in the Basque, diaspora 651 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,000 So write to us at 652 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,000 CrimesoftheBasqueLands at gmail.com 653 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,000 Yeah 654 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,000 Or on Instagram, you can follow us 655 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,000 On CrimesoftheBasqueLands 656 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,000 Yeah 657 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,000 We bid you... 658 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:52,000 Agur! 659 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:28,000 Agur!