Bat bi hiru lau
Watch your back, watch your back
Ertzaintza's gonna get you
Watch your back, watch your back
Ertzaintza's gonna get you
Watch your back, watch your back
Oh, there's a crime here
It's a coming from the Euskal Herria
Gotta wash those red hands
It's the crimes of the Basquelands
It's the crimes of the basquelands
So our podcast is about
It's about usually crimes
Crimes that take place either in the Basque Country
And or anywhere in the world where
Any Basque person has been involved in a crime somehow
Whether they're the victim, perpetrator, whatever
Exactly, and we also have a drink with ourselves every week
Yes, we do. As we do this week
I have a beer, you have a wine, what are we gonna start with?
You mean which one are we gonna mention first?
Yes. Let's talk about the wine
It's cold outside, it's really cold right now
And so red wine always suits me in cold weather
I have to get off the white wine in the winter
Yeah, it's lovely, it's warming
I'm just looking for the name
Alcorta
Yes, it's quite a well-known one
Yeah, it's very common
It is pretty common
It's Crianza, Tempranillo
2013
From what is it called?
Fuen Mayor is the name of the town where it's from
And that's in the Rioja
So it's not really the Basque Country but it's close enough
Yeah, so Rioja
I think we already talked about that, right?
Rioja is a wine region that has both Basque and Spanish
Like both sides
And actually today we're gonna talk about the Middle Ages
When this region was kind of going back and forth between Spain
And the Basque Country so it will be slightly relevant
I'm drinking a beer which is from Gipuzkoa
And it's very nice
It's called Olaneta
Yes, Olaneta, and it's from Herenteria
Which is also kind of the region we're thinking about
It's closer to the region we're thinking about
Okay
Which is the end, the last part of the Pyrenees
As they go into the Atlantic Ocean
And well, this is where the story happened
Yeah, and today's special because Douglas is gonna give us a story today
It is, my...
I can't wait to be the bystander and just listen and comment
Let's see how it goes
It's mostly around 1609 and 1610
And it's about witches
Nice
Witch trials and persecution
Yes
So the Basque Country has become associated with witchcraft as well as Galicia
Within the Spanish context
If we go back about 80-90 years, that's when the Basque Country was incorporated into Spain
And plus, during that first incorporation, we're talking 1520s
1520s to 30s
During that time was also when there was a lot of Protestantism and Catholics fighting in France
To see who was gonna win
So, and Navarre, which is the area we're gonna talk about today
Which used to be the old kingdom, the Basque Kingdom with its capital in Pamplona
Religiously, we're looking at a place that had a lot of influence from the North, from Protestants
And there's a lot of suspicion, not only of Protestants but also of just kind of folk religion
Whatever they're doing, anything that the Church doesn't recognize, it doesn't like
Okay
And so, well, there's a lot of suspicion, you know, they don't necessarily speak Castilian
It's people that speak Basque
So there's all those kinds of tensions and things happening
Okay
So in this context, now, you know, we're talking about
It's about a hundred years after Navarre was incorporated into, well, the Spanish crown
There are two main characters in the story
Okay
And let me just get their names here
So, Maria de Chimildegui
And, well, she was born, Maria de Chimildegui was born in 1588
So, you know, not a lot of stuff written about her
Yeah
And she was born in a very famous place for witchcraft in the Basque Country
It's kind of known as the capital of witchcraft, which is Sugaramurdi
I've been there
I haven't, actually
I have, I've been to the caves and everything where supposedly they've done the deeds
Yeah
And so, Maria de Chimildegui
So she was, well, born in Sugaramurdi, she moved away at 16 and went to France
I can't specify here, but somewhere else I was reading suggested it would be in Bayonne
She went to work for a family for a couple of years
And then she came back in 1609, during 1609, 1608, 1609
There was this guy in France who was also hunting witches
A witch hunter
He's a witch hunter and he's killing people, you know
Yikes
He's not just making them confess
He's a real jerk
So this guy was Pierre de Lancre
It's a name he chose
Although his surname is Arostegui
Basque
He is Basque, he's from lower Navarre, which is actually a province in French Basque Country
Because it's not as mountainous as Navarre, so it's lower, even though it's on the top
Yeah, that's weird
Indeed, and he's a bit of a bad boy
He had a lot of traumas
So he moved up to Bordeaux, chose a very French-sounding name
He comes back and he thinks now that everything that's wrong with the world is anything Basque
So the Basques are the worst
It's horrible language
He's rejecting all of his ancestry
He starts this hunt across the whole of the northern Basque Country
And of course, his problem isn't with women, it's with Basque women
Yeah, of course
He's specific
Yeah, and this is going on
He's killing people and hunting people and it's horrible
And I guess you were asking if it's during the Inquisition and yes, it is
I was wondering if it was something that coincided with the Inquisition
So this Pierre guy, you know, he's making a mess up north
You mean like in France?
Yeah
So he first started making a mess up in France
Well, it's the French Basque Country
Yeah, so he was up there making waves
He was, he was
And so around about that time, Maria de Chimedegui moves back to Navarre
So she's bringing all those stories that kind of the stress and you know, but also
Also the stories, you know, the confessions
So the idea was if you confess that you're a witch, I can absolve you
I don't need to kill you
Okay
But if you don't confess to being a witch, then I have no choice but kill you
It's kind of funny how all the cases that I read were either in Galicia
Or the Basque Country
Catalan countries
Yeah, the troublesome areas
Which are the areas where they have their own language
Exactly
Yeah
And weren't as incorporated into the state
Yes, yeah
Perfect sense, makes perfect sense
These authorities get very nervous about the stories of witchcraft in their neighboring northern regions
And let's keep in mind it's less than a hundred years that they have taken over Navarre
Okay
And so actually the witch trials took place in Logroño in La Rioja
Which is
I did read about that, yeah
It's part of Spain proper
And even there you can see that they're doing it outside of Navarre
Because, you know, why would we trust these people?
Right, exactly
You can't hold a trial there, you can't trust anything they say
Or their judicial system, yeah
Yeah, so they sent these two guys into the valley, into the mountains
And they start interviewing people
And trying to collect stories
They get hundreds, over 1,800 confessions they get
Over a thousand of those are children
Oh my god, kids just saying shit
That's for one
That was Salem witch trials too
It was just kids going, talking about people
I'm sure
And then, so it was mostly kids
And in another case where the authorities went into the Basque mountains looking for people
They had a secret weapon that I have to mention because it's so ridiculous
Should I hang on to my chapella?
Hold on to your chapella
They came in with twin little girls who could spot the witches
Oh my god
No way
That was their technique to uncover the witches
They went around with these two little girls who could apparently sense
These two little liars is what they were
They were just two little kids that were like pleasing adults
They were just trying to please adults
And be like, oh yeah sure we can do that
We got this, yeah
She must be a witch
Oh my god
You're also allowed to be tortured whilst you're being questioned
Of course, that's how you get confessions, right?
It's a really good way to get a confession
Yeah, so you wonder why people confess
Because if you do confess, then I can finally absolve you
But if you don't confess, you're probably a witch
Really, who instigated the beginning of this witch trial was Maria Shimildegui
She instigated the trial?
Well, because she came over and then she started saying that certain people were
Oh, so she's a bad girl
Here I was thinking all this time that she was some poor persecuted woman
Exactly
She ended up getting things started
The story thickens
Yikes, this is good
Well, let's take a little mini break and we'll be back
Okay, alright, we'll be back
And we're back
Yes
So I'm going to read a little bit from the witch trials in Navarre article in Wikipedia
And it gives us a little bit more context
So the investigation began when Maria de Shimildegui of Sugerarmurgi claimed that she had attended a witch's Sabbath
Which would be a nocturnal gathering
And named other members of the village being present
She confronted one of the women
Snitch
Well, I mean, she's clearly making it up
She confronted one of the women she accused, Maria de Horeteguia
In front of the woman's family
And recounted the details so vividly
That the listeners became convinced and pressured the woman to confess
She admitted it was true
And said she had been a witch since she was a small child
After her priest urged her to make a public confession during the next few days
Various others who had been denounced came forward and made public confessions
Some of those under suspicion were dragged to the local priest by force
And threatened with torture if they did not confess
I love how it's just the vividness that convinced them it must be true
Yeah, they're like, wow, she had a really good story
It was very full of details
It can't be not true
Yeah
It's terrible
So in January 1609, four self-denounced witches were taken to Logronio for initial hearing before the inquisition
And in this case, it's not like it's the civil authorities
It's the government that is questioning them
It's not
Because later we discover
Which was run by Catholics, right?
It was run by Catholics
Yeah, nobody's good here
But the government was Catholic
It was, but it wasn't a church that was doing this
It was the government
The state, yeah
It was the state
Yeah
Although clearly, you know
Which is run by Catholics
Priests involved and all of that
Yeah, like come on
So not until the preliminary inquiries were completed did the inquirers inform the Inquisitor General of the Supreme Council in Madrid
Which is that that's where I was getting at
So they didn't, you know
Now they told the church
They have the preliminary hearing
And then they're like, oh, we need to notify Madrid
So these two inquisitors in Logroño assumed the existence of a witch sect was a fact
And largely because the witches descriptions were in such close agreement
Everybody agreed, they heard the same story
Because their descriptions of the devil, nocturnal assemblies and admissions, admission ceremonies tallied with very few discrepancies between the accounts
According to these two men who were leading the questioning
Well, I mean, that's how like judicial systems work today, too
Like if you have so many witnesses recounting the same thing, you tend to take it as truth, right?
It sounds good, but it's not because
Right, right, of course
Like that's this is the flaws
Because in March 1609, the Supreme Council of the Inquisition sent a questionnaire to Logroño
To be administered to the imprisoned witches and witches still at liberty
Okay
And certain witnesses
Okay
However, these two beautiful men didn't do that
They just administered it to the four witches that were in prison
Okay
Well, the few witches
So they didn't question the ones that were in, that were still out of prison
Because the questionnaire that the Madrid sent them actually was trying to catch people out with contradictions
Later on, this guy here, Alonso de Salazar Frias comes into the story
He kind of steered the direction away from assuming first there were witches
Okay
Because that's what these two guys assumed
They just were like, okay, who are the witches?
They didn't go, are witches a thing?
Whereas Alonso de Salazar did was he was more like, I'm not sure about this witch thing
Let's try and he was an actual investigator
Okay
And he so through him, we see that actually that questionnaire wasn't administered to anybody else
The guys already assumed the witches were a thing
Okay
And the thing that Salazar brought to the table was that he was like, no, try to catch them out
What did Salazar have? He had Basque, he could talk to people
Oh
And he would actually converse
He was in a church and they sent him out to the same valley to do lots of interviews
He took people to the caves and nobody could say where the devil was sitting, for example
They kept changing the minds
Wait, maybe he was over there by that rock
Yeah, like the basis for him to find problem with the confessions is as hilarious as that
Like this woman said he was sitting over there and this girl said he was sitting over there
But then later she said he was sitting over here
And he looked like this or that
So actually he kind of brought some sense
Of justice
Well, at least of logic
I'm not sure justice
Well, I mean, justice is based on logic, right?
You can reasonably believe something or not, right?
That's the whole basis of it, right?
Yeah
You can have to reasonably believe something happened or did not happen, right?
Mm-hmm
That's kind of the interesting thing, these two guys, the first two guys
You know, they were making so many assumptions
Yes, they're witches, of course
Naturally
Let's just find who they are
And then they were just, there were these classic questions
Which were like sometimes, you know, hundreds of years old that you were supposed to ask the witch
And then, you know, there were these silly questions that were no way out, you know?
Yeah
So of course they would catch them
Uh-huh
And they would feel very happy about themselves
So this guy, Salazar is the first guy who's like, let's think about that
And people do say he managed to calm down witch trials
The mob mentality
Even for the rest of Europe after he brought in these kinds of...
Because he was just like an investigator
Indeed
However, he was a bit late
He's not a good guy
Too late to the show
He's not a good guy because he is part of the three people who eventually decide to kill
These events occurred simultaneously with the witch hunt conducted by the French judge Pierre L'Ancre in the northern Basque Country, north of the Pyrenees
His investigation led to mass burning of accused witches
He numbered about 80, over 80 people that he burned
There's little doubt that the news of L'Ancre's activities fueled the panic on the southern side of the border
And that's what led to this burning of these six people in 1610
It happened in Logroño, the capital of La Rioja
30,000 people attended this burning and the stake
The bishop of Pamplona was actually not happy with this
He wrote to the Inquisition because these guys, you know, apparently didn't even know Basque, the first two guys
Came to interview people
Who had all these people killed and so in March 1611, the Inquisitor General instructed Salazar to make new visitations, this time alone
Unaccompanied by the other Inquisitors
He was not to use pressure or force confessions nor to question witches about supposed accomplices
But he was to interrogate witches who allegedly attended the same gathering to see if their statements tallied
You see, this is very much what Salazar was always about
Well, I mean, he was like a detective or something
It comes out that although he was part of the three people who decided to kill these six people in the end
His doubts about the process weren't made public until many, many years later
So we know about it, but he kept quiet
He kept quiet for a long time, yeah
And so that was when he went up and then interviewed everybody by himself
And he's a Basque speaker and there's a very moving part of the story when he calls this little boy like an angel, like a very pure soul
So somebody accused him, little boy
I think he was 11, his little other little boys accused him of being a witch and he denied
And his father didn't believe him
His father thought he was a witch, his own son
Yeah, he said you have to confess because that's the only way to get out of it
And he didn't, he was lashed on a bed naked until he was unconscious
He was taken away and then after this he was interviewed by Salazar
Salazar decided to take him into a room by himself
No people pressuring him or looking
And he asked him to tell the story
He said, I'm not guilty
And he was like, do you know, you have to confess if it's true
And then eventually this little boy goes, yeah, but if I confess and it's not true
Then that kind of, he didn't say it with his words, but he's implying that defeats the purpose
And that's when Salazar kind of really hits home to him
He realizes these are very poor villages
They're very, you know, very basic, they get basically cruel to eat children
They don't get very nice food
And when you're coming to be interviewed by Mr. Priest, you get nice food
And it's a nice warm place
So the longer your stories
You tell them what you want to hear, they want to hear and you're going to get rewarded for that
And that's the kind of one plus one that Salazar put together and was like, well
The whole system is broken because they're just confessing the cause
And later he talks to a woman and we see that
I read this interview as well and she's, she's, you know, she's a grown woman
And he's like, so why did you lie to me when he gets to the bottom of it?
And she's like, you guys came for stories
So I gave you a story
I gave you a story, I mean, I went with it
That's what you wanted, right?
Yeah, just pleasing people
It's a people pleasing thing
Yeah, it was a very hard story to go through
And I have a little less mention about Inessa Gashen
Who is a poor woman living in France and accused by Lankre of being a witch
Wait, who's Lankre?
Lankre is the guy in the North
The guy that was in, okay
In Northern Basque Country
And she was accused of being a witch
Out of the 80 people he killed, thankfully she escaped
How?
Well, she confessed and she wasn't killed
Okay
And then she came to the Southern Basque Country and was accused again, the poor woman
Oh no, twice?
Yeah, thankfully she was not among the people
What was it about her that people wanted to make her, take her down?
One of the articles, but it wasn't confirmed by another one, but another one said she had some condition
Either her eye was not right or she was
Oh no, so some things you can't even help, oh my god
So clearly everybody was just body shaming her for some issue she had
And so I guess we should, at least I know five of the women's names that were burned at the stake
And I think we should at least read those
For sure
Maria de Cimeldegui actually did
She burned at the stake, the one that was like snitching on everybody
No, because she confessed
But then she snitched on everybody too
She created all the problems
Yeah
She got off
So Maria de Cimeldegui was not one of them, but
Maria Bastan de Borda was one
And Maria de Sosaia
Graciana Chara
And Maria de Arburo
Yeah, this is
Maria de Chachuta, yes
These are the five women that I found out
And the one guy
And that's the thing, I'm not sure if the last one was a guy
Well, tell us about one of them if you have some information
So Maria de Sosaia, for example, from Olleregui
I can't tell you where that is, but I'm assuming around Navarre as well
Oh, it says here in Navarre
She was resident in the town of Renteria in Gipusqua
And she was purportedly a witch of the same town as Aquilarri
Aquilarri is how they call the night Sabbath
Which is how they call a witch meeting
Okay
So here Aquilarri would be in a witch meeting
So she was accused of being in the Renteria witch meeting
She was 79
I know
A 79 year old
Back in those days
She lived to 79 and then got killed as a witch
She died in prison
But of course, since you had to burn a witch, her bones were burned with the other six live people
Oh, because she died in prison and then they just burnt her bones
Five people had died in prison during this whole prologue
Oh, so they didn't get burned at the stake
Five women were burned alive
She had thankfully died before
She died before being held in prison
As a condemned witch
Oh my god
Little pause
So yeah, this I can't believe that
Yeah, it's really sad
An 80, almost 80 year old woman
She was 80 by the time she was
79, she gets imprisoned, dies in prison
You have to make a spectacle of her by burning her bones
The picture I saw of this very famous Sugara Mordi cave
I wouldn't have classified as a cave because it looks like just a big rock
That was like a massive rock that was formed a hole with a river
Is this what you saw? Like a little river going through a tunnel sort of thing?
Because it wasn't bigger than 20 meters
It's been years, so I don't know exactly
I don't remember exactly that cave because I've been to a lot of places since then
I know we have a photo, Ramona and I have a photo of us at that cave
But we should all go, we have to go
But was it more like a...
Well, it was a cave, there was definitely caves
So like black insides
It was like a big opening in the rock, right?
You can imagine there was like seances happening there or something, whatever
That's how they play it out when you do the tour or whatever
And the reason why I say, which I love the idea, is because it's become part of Basque culture
Being proud of our witches, of the Sorghineas
And you can find lots of little trinkets, you know, as tourists
Oh yeah, yeah, little witch memorabilia
So now we actually have official commemorations every year
And they dance... To these witches?
No, it's not witches, but women
That were sacrificed for just being, I don't know, pagan?
I mean, now there's just pagan commemorations to kind of affirm...
Or just being women, or just being different?
You're bringing things to the table
I'm just saying what happens in Sugodomurdi now is they have festivals
Yes
They might, probably they will be thinking about women
I mean, we know the Basque Country, they're always...
Pro-women
Pro-women, so I'm sure there's an element of remembering
Yeah, because we were saying that in the Basque Country
There was a lot of times when women were running the show
Because men were away doing other labor
They were out fishing, or whaling, or coal mining
So women had to maintain everything else
And the finances even, like doing everything
So it's a very strong culture of that
And so it's a very strong matriarchal culture
Because they like to say that it's matriarchal, but...
They don't
I can test that a lot of times because...
It's different, I consider it, you know, it's true that it is
I believe that women have like a say, and that it's respected
But it's still under a patriarchal...
It's under like a Catholic Church, or it's under a government
That's not matriarchal, you know what I mean?
Like, these are all functioning within a structure or a system
That's not matriarchal, you know what I mean?
Yes and no, because you assume...
But the culture is...
I think you assume that the Church won
And that's the thing that I'm...
My reading is different
I'm not saying they win
Wait a minute, wait a minute
Okay
Because what I see in this story is
The Church and the state, unsure of how much control they have over the Basque Country
And because they have a certain amount of independence and separateness
Yep
That's what...
Yeah, and that's why they have...
They need to have that control over them, yeah
But that's what I mean, like, whereas I think when we go to that village
The women are actually in control and the Church has a certain amount of control
Or not even in control, they're just more participants of the culture
You know, like they're taking part in the culture
Yeah
And then have real power within that culture
You know, like they're either doing the family finances
Or their husband's out fishing and they're the ones selling the fish
They're the ones making sure that everything gets sold and how much money we're going to take in for the family
And feed the family and everything
So it is threatening, you know
It's threatening to other powers that be that want control
Yeah
But that's the thing, you know, like in more traditional Western European countries
You see women's rights aren't even allowed to have property
Where I think here it's more...
Well
Generally there was more acceptance
Under Franco
Yeah, but what I was... yeah
Yeah, I just think women's position was more flexible in the Basque Country
I think there's more spaces for them to inhabit it over history
And I think that's definitely still something I feel
No, sure, for sure
And people say it
Yeah, the word matriarchal
People that live here say it
The word matriarchal implies a lot of legality, a lot of...
It implies power
Power, yeah
It implies power over everybody else or like imposing some sort of...
It implies recognized power
And I think that's where we depart in the Basque Country
Where the power of the women is here
But it's not legally recognized
It's just a fact in society
Yeah
It's kind of, you know, I don't want to say...
It's very much a part of the culture and the society
I don't want to say behind closed doors or at home
Because that's kind of...
It's recognized among everybody
It is, but in those moments like Franco
When in public you couldn't do anything at all
No, you couldn't have a bank account
You couldn't have a credit card
You couldn't have a mortgage or anything
Well, I'm not sure, but I suppose
No, no, for sure
Absolutely, for sure
You couldn't do anything without your husband's permission
Or your father's permission
Exactly, which is, I guess...
Yeah, I mean, it is a big reason why...
Yeah, I mean, you know, the language almost died
So it's a bit of a trauma for Basque society
And an impetus towards wanting to be independent
And trying to sort of run your own laws
Separate yourself from...
Because, yeah
From this other culture, yeah
You know, if you look at the 1610 occurrence
That is a way of the Spanish state trying to impose its rules on the Basque Country, you know?
Everything is about, you know, opposing rule and power
And...
I want to mention this
I think it's very appropriate here
Although it's slightly changing the topic
Because I was doing a course on Ukrainian statehood
And the history of Ukrainian statehood
And one of the interesting points they made was
Ukraine was just... Ukrainians were just being Ukrainians
But it was because of the countries around it
That it had to become a country to protect itself against being eaten up by the empires around it
And that's very much, I think, how I see here the Basque Country between France and Spain
You know, trying to survive
And, you know, whether...
Having a say in their own...
Destiny and culture and everything, yeah
So in a way that nationalism, that identity comes out of other states being next to it
Trying to impose their version of life
Trying to impose it, yeah
Because, you know...
For sure
I mean, Basque people have been...
Makes perfect sense
They've been happy in the French state and in the Spanish state for many centuries
And then not happy for many other centuries
But in a way...
When somebody tries to tell you what to do, it's like...
Wait a minute
I just love that attrition of the idea of the fact that it's the attrition between two states that creates another state
You know, where people don't...
You know, there's always this idea that we are one thing
And then everybody else that doesn't fit in
Yeah
Suddenly...
Becomes another
Has to decide what to do
What do I do? Do I change myself a little bit?
Yeah
Right? Or do I...
That's the tricky
Do I go, well...
Actually, no, that's too much
I'm really not that
And then you have to... you find yourself...
Kind of forced to... yeah
Form another something, state identity or whoever you are, I know
But anyway
See you guys next time, do we say?
Yeah
So, yes, if you want to send us any stories
Because we're always looking for anything in the Basque...
Wait, you told me how to pronounce this word
Diaspora
See, I've only ever read it
So I never heard it pronounced
Diaspora
So anything in the Basque, diaspora
So write to us at
CrimesoftheBasqueLands at gmail.com
Yeah
Or on Instagram, you can follow us
On CrimesoftheBasqueLands
Yeah
We bid you...
Agur!