Welcome to Unlimited Parenting where we discuss having children with disabilities or special
health care needs.
My name is Allison and with me today is my fellow partner in crime, Melissa.
Hello.
Welcome to a new series called IPUL, that's us.
IPUL founded on Facebook where I peruse the Facebook parenting groups and research your
questions that I found so you don't have to.
And if you're counting at home, that is a two new series we've started in the last four
minutes.
You are gong ho.
So you're welcome.
Okay.
You're so welcome.
Okay.
Melissa, thank you for being here today.
This is a little heads up in advance, it looks like Medicaid has brought us here today.
IDEA has brought us here today.
There's a lot.
Okay.
So as you can imagine, there are quite a few questions asked every day on Facebook.
So I obviously did not pick them all.
Thank you.
We are going to be here all day.
I only picked, I think I picked five.
Oh.
And this was just yesterday that you found them or?
No, it's been the past week.
It's been this past week.
And there, I think that they're really good questions.
Okay.
So I'll read them to you.
And then maybe we can discuss.
Are you okay with that?
Okay.
And then I did a whole bunch of research into these questions.
Okay.
So if I sound like I'm reading from something, it's because I am.
Okay, so question number one that I found on the Facebook groups.
Can you, as in the school.
Can the school deny an IEP because the child has good grades?
No, but that happens a lot.
It does happen a lot.
Or parents will say they didn't even want to do the evaluation because.
Because of grades.
Yeah, their grades are great.
Why would they?
Yeah.
And what they don't see is the parent at the kitchen table for four hours after school
helping them.
Or, let's just be real, the parent doing the homework for them.
And that's not doing anybody any favors.
Exactly.
Because that shows us no data that then we as parents don't have a leg to stand on when
we say our student needs help and they are not being supported.
Well, looks like they're turning their work in.
Yeah, it looks like they're doing just great.
In fact, they said therefore and in conclusion, that's how they don't need any support, obviously.
Don't not help your kids by doing their work.
Don't judge a book by its cover.
Yeah.
Sure.
Okay.
I think to fully answer this question, we should back up a little further and just do
a quick knowledge burst, if you will, on special education eligibility.
Right?
Yeah.
So I'm going to preach to the choir because I'm going to stare at you while I lay this.
But this is really for you podcast listeners out there in podcast land.
In terms of special education eligibility, it's referred to as the three prongs.
So we'll discuss each one super quick.
The first prong is asking the question, does this child have one of the 14 eligible categories,
disability categories?
So I'll name one, you name one.
Autism?
Heart appearing.
Intellectual disability?
Other health impairment.
Emotional behavioral disturbance?
Multiple disabilities.
Blind or visually impaired?
Did you already say that one?
No, I said hard of hearing.
So that's a good one.
Okay.
Can you think of another?
Let's see.
We did multiple disabilities.
There's 14.
Obviously there are some that we see more often than others.
We do.
Yeah.
There is a speech.
There is a speech and there's orthopedic impairment.
Yep.
I thought of another one.
Okay.
So those are some of the eligible answers for that first prong question.
The second prong is going to ask, does this child's disability adversely impact them either
developmentally, academically, or functionally?
Yep.
And so right there, you can say that this child may be meeting academic standards, but
what are those other areas in which a child maybe isn't?
Exactly.
And then what, you know, developmentally and functionally, are they impaired to get to
the academic performance that they know that the school wants, right?
Right.
And then they become these people pleasers that are trying to do everything, which causes
them anxiety.
And you can see where this vicious cycle is spiraling from.
And then the final prong is asking, does this student require specially designed instruction?
And specially designed instruction means adapting as appropriate to the need of an eligible
student, the content, methodology, delivery of instruction to address the unique needs
of the student that result from his or her disability and to ensure access to the general
education curriculum so that the student can meet the Idaho content standards that apply
to all students.
Yep.
So what could this look like?
So this is if a student needs, if they need an adaptation to curriculum.
So for example, my student is not age level in math.
He is doing sorting when his peers are potentially doing geometry.
So we are taking curriculum and making it individualized for that student.
I mean, that's just one of many, many examples, but how are we, how are we altering curriculum
and content for the individualized needs of a particular student?
So maybe this student with really good grades could benefit from having every other question
or only writing out the answer to every third question or something like that to demonstrate
that they have mastery, but not making it because at the end of the day are these same
schools expecting typically developing students to do four hours of homework at night.
And if they're not, then this student who's getting good grades, but spending four hours
perhaps isn't getting their free and appropriate public education.
And so that is just equally, and that's providing equal access that could be done through accommodations.
Yeah.
So, no, we did, but I have a little example.
Okay.
So having said all that, let's now pretend that we have another kid and her name is Samantha.
She is a student and she has a diagnosis of dyslexia.
She's getting phenomenal grades in math.
She's in speech and debate.
I mean, she's killing it, right?
But her mom is concerned that she's super tired all the time, right?
If we probe a little deeper, we can see that she is substantially limited in reading, right?
She's dyslexic and she finds it challenging to read the required class material.
Check, check, double check.
Samantha has been busy pulling all nighters to try and stay on pace with her classmates,
and not fall behind so she doesn't look different and you know everything.
If we use jargon, which we try really hard not to use, but if we did, that may sound
something like Samantha's impairment may substantially limit a major life activity regardless of
whether or not she performs well academically.
Yes.
Which is essentially what we just said.
So I think there's something else that's really worthwhile to mention.
Another facet of this that we haven't discussed, and it's a little something called child find.
So if you're not immediately aware of child find, school districts have a responsibility
under IDEA to locate, identify, and evaluate any child with a disability who is possibly
in need of special education.
So if we go back to Samantha.
Yeah.
The school, really the onus should be on the school at some point to identify that she's
struggling in reading, right?
And she is not on track with her typical peers in reading.
Everything else, she is, she's hitting the marks.
But we as a school potentially have an onus to do their child find obligation and say,
this is a student that is struggling.
This is a student that could maybe potentially qualify for some extra supports and then have
that conversation with the parent.
It happens all the time.
It should happen all the time.
Child find, if we have a student that maybe is struggling behaviorally or, you know, there
are many, many ways a student can show signs of struggle.
But then a district has that requirement essentially to let parents know this, maybe there's some
extra supports that we could identify.
Maybe we should start kind of that special education process.
100%.
Before we move on, we're gonna, before we label this a big old myth, let's put one more
nail in the coffin directly from IDEA.
I almost said specifically, specifically.
Section 300.101 C1, which clearly states FAPE, otherwise known as a free and appropriate,
no, you say it, you say it.
Free and appropriate public education.
I should make that a sound on here.
Yeah.
FAPE is available to any individual child with a disability who needs special education
and related services, even though the child has not failed or been retained in a course
or grade and is advancing from grade to grade.
So I need a sound that's like bottom line.
Bottom line.
I like it.
A child who performs well academically may also be a child with a disability.
Absolutely.
This is not a clear cut scenario, but there are scenarios that we see quite often.
So reach out to your school district, reach out to us, reach out if you need help.
And this may sound wild, but every child is unique and different.
So I mean, just because it looks one way for one child doesn't mean it's gonna look that
way for another child.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Are you ready to move on to the second question that I found?
Yep.
Okay, here we go.
Must the school hold a meeting without a parent if the parent is unavailable before an annual
review deadline because of the student's IEP or eligibility will expire and or lapse?
Do you want the, I mean, there's a short answer that potentially, yes.
But the long answer is there is due diligence on the school's behalf to give the parent
opportunities and time to be a part of that meeting because we as parents are an IEP team
member.
So can the school do it?
Yes, worst case scenario.
But see, this is where it starts to get really interesting in my opinion, because CIPR, it's
essentially our technical assistance for the Parent Training and Information Center.
Now I can't be, there's so many acronyms.
We promised we wouldn't speak in jargon anyway.
So the the parent centers parents and her basically has said the short answer is I mean,
yeah, potentially they could.
But if you look at places like Wright's Law and then this other court case, I'm going
to quote here in a minute, the answer is no.
So it gets precedent says, yeah, it gets a little convoluted.
So first off, right?
Like of course, life would work out that way where no one can come to anything.
At first glance, it seems that both could be IDA violations, right?
Like not having the parent there and then missing being out of bounds of the timeline,
right?
Both not good situations.
So I guess we can back this one up to by saying that there are four core members of the IEP
team, right?
The special education teacher, general education teacher, district representative, and then
the parents, us parents.
Yep.
So if you even just look at that, then you know that they can't do anything without you
being there, right?
So no meeting can be held without all four in attendance.
So we're in between a rock and a hard place.
But let me tell you what, I researched this so that you don't have to.
I found the following, that schools are required to accommodate parents to ensure their attendance
and participation.
And here's that court case I was talking about.
These rights are upheld and affirmed from 2013 in a court decision called Douglas C.
versus Hawaii, which states, if a meeting is delayed due to a family member being, and
I quote, temporarily unavailable due to illness, work, travel, or something else.
Please continue uninterrupted until the meeting can be held with the four core members in
attendance.
Cool.
You could, I mean, you could be asking yourself why, what if the school team meets and then
follows up with the parents like 30 days later when they come back and then get the thoughts
from the parents then, as the meeting in the middle best of both worlds?
Well, no.
You know.
Sorry.
The involvement after the fact isn't exactly the involvement that IDEA is looking for or
set out for in the beginning.
So parents have to be involved in the creation process, not as an afterthought.
Essentially waiting on a meeting to ensure parental participation is not a denial of
a child's free and appropriate public education because the IEP services will continue until
the meeting can be held.
But on the flip side of that situation, denying a parent their right to be involved in the
process is a denial under IDEA.
Yes.
So if we have to make a choice, the choice is always to postpone so that a parent can
be a participating member of an IEP team.
And teams are aware of that.
Teams can write justification.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And if you look at the goals, one of the three parts of a goal is parental input.
Absolutely.
So you can't really take very many steps unless the parent is in the room in the first place.
In theory, right?
Yes.
In theory.
Yeah.
Best practice.
Legal, law, hold me to the fire.
So bottom line.
Yeah.
If this series is going to continue, you do need a new sound effect.
I do.
Okay.
Bottom line.
Parent participation is a higher priority than deadlines.
Yes.
Okay.
Question three.
How do you expect a child receive support in school if you suspect that they're autistic,
but they don't have a diagnosis in the community yet?
Yay.
I'm glad that you asked that because I was gonna say that on the, when we were talking
about the prongs and disability.
So yes.
Yes.
If we have a suspicion, if we have a means to think that this is a child that maybe something
else is going on.
We know that there are a wait list left, right and sideways and we can't deny a student
because he doesn't have a-
Right.
No one wants the kid to wait two years so that you can get in to get a whisk and an
ADOS too and get, you shouldn't have to wait, right?
So families should be able to pursue special education, special education evaluations without
a true diagnosis because what can happen in some of the evaluations is an educational
diagnosis of autism that would then get the student services.
They're eligible because they have essentially deficits in certain areas that would qualify
them for special education.
They meet those three prongs, right?
Right.
Is that diagnosis then going to get them home and community-based services?
No, but it is enough to get them the educational support through IDEA and special education
in the school.
It's going back to ChildFind again.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yep.
Absolutely.
The special, and I'm just going to say this, the special education manual of Idaho defines
ChildFind because we talked about it through IDEA, but let's talk about it through the
Idaho Department of Education.
ChildFind is a process to locate, identify, and evaluate individuals ages three to 21
who are suspected of having a disability and in need of special education.
Another thing that I want to add that you had touched on just a second ago is that IDEA
frowns on a wait MC approach.
Yeah, no.
No.
That's not trying to use response to intervention or waiting for that community diagnosis is,
I quote, you cannot delay or deny an evaluation.
The special education manual also says, although screening is an important part of the ChildFind
system, screening cannot be used to delay processing a referral to consider a special
education evaluation where immediate action is warranted.
So even if you don't have a community diagnosis of autism, but your child's school has a basis
of knowledge that you could be a person with a disability, they might be out of compliance
with ChildFind if they don't assess you because exactly like you said, there is such a thing
as an educational diagnosis of autism.
And I think another thing, guess I'm on my soapbox now, another thing that's worth mentioning
is that if you're under the age of nine, you could just...
Global...
How did we forget that?
Yeah.
How did we forget that in the categories earlier?
Developmental delay.
I know.
The other category that we forgot is specific learning disability too, which is a big one.
I'm for you to forget.
Right.
I don't want to cheat.
So specific learning disability very often is found during the eligibility process.
So maybe we have a student like Samantha who is struggling in reading and the eligibility
process may find that she has some dyslexic traits.
She's not going to get a diagnosis of dyslexia through the evaluation process, but some of
the dyslexia traits may be, we have a pattern of strengths and weaknesses that will be shown
through the evaluation that could then find her, potentially qualify her for specific
learning disability as that one of those 14 categories.
And then Samantha is eligible for special education.
But I guess it would be, we would do you a disservice if we didn't also say that extra
medical information isn't impactful in the decision-making process.
So if your child has a community diagnosis of autism, sharing that as well as the doctor's
findings can help guide the team in goals and decision-making.
But families aren't required to share any outside information with the team either.
And I'd like to expand this one more step further.
A medical diagnosis isn't required to establish eligibility for an IEP in the same way that
a doctor can't prescribe an IEP.
So a school system, community system, cordial collaborative, but they don't tell each other
what to do.
Right?
So a doctor can't tell the school, this kid needs an IEP and the school can't say, you
have autism.
They can give you an educational diagnosis of autism.
Or the school can't say this kid needs resperidone.
Here's a prescription.
You know, it's the same thing.
This is not one of the questions, but it reminds me of something.
Your kid doesn't need a 504.
Your kid needs dexmethylphenidate.
They just need to be medicated and then they'll do finance school.
Also no, ladies and gentlemen.
Also no.
Okay.
Bottom line.
This is way too fun.
You do not need a diagnosis to receive special education support in school.
Nope.
What did the kids say?
Period.
End of story.
Okay.
Question number four.
The final, it's the final countdown.
Now see, I can't get in trouble if it's me singing it, right?
If I put music in, then potentially it's a royalty thing.
But if I'm singing the song.
No one will ever know what song that was.
You don't think I did Europe justice.
We're heading for Venus.
That song is just next level.
Okay.
Final question.
Can you give examples of different least restrictive environments?
And this is such a good question.
Yeah.
Because a lot of times, well, first off, the answer is yes.
Yes, we can.
And the second part of that is parents will call and you don't know what you don't know.
So they're like, you're right.
Oh, for example, I am homeschooling and now I'm not.
And I'm going to put my child in their neighborhood school.
What are my options?
That's a really great question.
And at the end of the day, the answer is what are their supports?
What do they need?
What have they been found eligible for?
Right?
Yeah.
Well, and least restrictive environment doesn't even have to be the school setting.
In some cases, we have students that are in residential care and that is their least restrictive
environment.
Yes.
So there are, I mean, it's a loaded question because just like you said, the student supports
really dictate what their least restrictive environment is.
Right?
Yes.
Sorry.
I don't know why.
I don't know.
Look at you guys.
The cheek is gave me like, did I say something wrong?
I wonder if I kind of disassociated for a second.
That is the look that you gave me.
Okay.
Can we first start by defining least restrictive environment?
So LRE or least restrictive environment stands for, it is, excuse me, an IDEA requirement
that students with disabilities, including those in private or public institutions or
like you said, other care facilities be educated with students who are non-disabled to the
maximum extent appropriate.
So we recognize that each IEP is individual and unique, just like every student, meaning
that by extension, every student's least restrictive environment is gonna be different.
The ultimate goal being that every student is educated alongside their typical peers
as much as possible.
Yeah.
So for some students, this looks like push-in services, while for others, this could look
like eating in the cafeteria or being in a home-bound situation, like you said.
So we can look at LRE as a spectrum of options.
The goal of the IEP team, which remember, parent, four core member, right?
So you have, you gotta say, right, placement is a team decision.
The goal of the IEP team is to determine the best learning environment for the child.
So Melissa and I are gonna do our best to paint you a little picture here.
I'm no Bob Ross.
I'm gonna try it out.
Oh, okay.
Imagine a triangle.
Okay.
Isosceles, equilateral, scalene, any kind of triangle that you want.
Just know I'm thinking of an equilateral triangle.
Okay.
Of course you are.
But the base of the triangle is gonna be regular class placement.
So the general education environment.
This is the placement for almost all, so let's just say most, typically developing students.
And as we move up, the triangle is gonna get smaller, simultaneously indicating that less
and less, so a smaller percentage of the population will be served in this environment, right?
Yep.
So bottom, general, general ed, 100% of your day.
The next portion of the triangle is gonna be general education with push-in supports.
Can you give an example of what that could look like?
Yeah, so a push-in support could be a scribe.
We've had a some- Oh, I didn't think of that.
That's a good one.
Yeah.
So some paraprofessionals that act as a scribe for their students that maybe don't have the
handwriting dexterity.
That could be a behavioral interventionist if this is a student that has some behaviors,
but we need a little bit of that oversight.
Now however, we wanna really be careful with that adult one-to-one because that can also
really distract from a student's least restrictive environment because the dependence on that
adult becomes such that they're no longer dependent.
That could be a whole other episode about independence and advocacy.
Yeah.
But yeah, so that push-in could be that kind of support, that adult support.
It could be peer support sometimes.
You know?
Yes.
That's sometimes an option too.
The example that I had thought of is a reading specialist who comes in with the extra support
and materials to help this one specific student, but it's in the language arts block.
So no one is an equalizer.
Yep.
Exactly.
So essentially the child not leaving the general education environment that their peers are
in but still receiving special education services.
That could be a speech pathologist going into the classroom or a physical therapist with,
this happens with my son when he was in elementary school, physical therapist would go to recess
with him.
He's still with his gen ed peers.
Yes.
He's in his gen ed environment and no one knew what was happening, but he was working
on his PT goals at recess with his gen ed peers.
So that was really restrictive.
And inclusion.
Absolutely.
When and where appropriate.
Which that's the best way to do it, right?
Yeah.
So the next option moving on, moving on our triangle would be the general education classroom
with supplementary aids or a resource room option.
So I had a friend who was supported like this in high school.
So every day he spent one of his periods in the resource room as an elective in this space.
He was able to have an extra hour to get started on homework or ask his questions in a small
group environment.
From that part of the triangle, we're going to move on to what I lovingly refer to as
part timers.
So these are students who are in the special education environment and the general education
environment in a near 50 50 split, whether that's 60 40 or yeah, this could be a student
who is requiring specialized instruction in reading and positive behavioral interventions
and supports.
Yeah.
But it's still able to attend the general education classroom for math and electives,
right?
So maybe this individual is impaired such that a reading specialist coming into the
classroom just being that little bit of extra support is not what's appropriate.
They need that one to one, not a small group, but one to one direct instruction in maybe
a choir.
That's what I was going to say.
Sometimes those classroom environments are too overwhelming to really get some substantial
work accomplished.
And so some of these pullout scenarios can do just that in a smaller one to one quiet
environment.
Yeah.
Even in a different classroom sometimes, you know, or the hallway.
Sometimes it happens in the hallway.
I mean, it's yes.
And because part of what I'm thinking is, is that if this student in our example is
also getting PBIS supports, maybe maybe everyone is kind of just anticipating that even that
the fact that we're going to ask this child to do reading or math is going to be a trigger
for them and that they're going to need that time to kind of come back into their body
and get regulated.
So they have that classroom space for that.
Yeah.
And I would say that on an IEP, this is a replacement that will be shown.
So least restrictive environment is a consideration on an IEP and it has to be noted.
So it'll say the percentage of time annoyed to student is in the classroom.
It must be on that.
Right.
Under the service of it.
Right.
Yeah.
If you're looking for it, that's where it is.
So you're going to notice, I know I said this before, but you're going to notice that we're
moving up the triangle.
It's becoming more and more restrictive.
So students are spending less and less time with their typically developing peers.
So as an IEP team, we're only moving up this triangle if we think it's absolutely necessary,
if it's the students best learning environment and in their best interests.
So from this point on, we are in a full time special education classroom.
So this is perhaps a student who sees their general education peers in PE.
PE, music, some of the specials is sometimes where we recess, see a lot of this happening,
recess, lunch.
Yeah.
But other than that, they're spending their entire academic blocks in a self-contained
classroom.
So after that point, we've kind of exhausted all of our in-school options.
So all of the following options are out of the typical school environment.
So this could look like a student attending a specialized school, receiving education
in a homebound environment or in a hospital residential facility.
And as you can imagine, at this point, there is no time spent with typically developing
peers.
So in some cases, a homebound program is geared towards students who have a temporary illness
or accident.
But this can also look like a student with a significant health care needs who's perhaps
medically fragile and unable to attend school during the flu season.
So they can't go from October to March.
And so they're receiving all of their instruction from their house.
If it would be catastrophic for them to catch an illness during that season, that homebound
instruction is their least restrictive environment.
And that's homebound.
It's different than home school.
Yes.
So yeah, but that would be their least restrictive environment.
And that's a team decision.
So at this point, we're at the very top of the triangle.
You know, we're not even in a specialized school.
We're at home.
We're in a hospital.
And we're trying to make the child stay in this LRE as short as possible and then work
our way back down.
But again, that comes with that caveat of when and where appropriate.
So maybe it's a year or two years or three years.
Maybe it's never appropriate.
Yeah, it might not be.
And that's why every year, right, we re-evaluate.
We re-evaluate.
It's catching.
Oh my word.
Blah, blah, blah, we re-evaluate every year.
Well, every three years we have re-revaluation.
But we have the conversation about placement every year.
Is this still appropriate?
So assuming the team is convening every year and more if necessary, those placement conversations
should be happening.
Always.
And with as much weight as goals, right?
Yeah, this is of equal importance.
It's not like, oh, well, as an afterthought, I still think this is Samantha's best environment.
Well, no, it needs to be a little bit more of a conversation than that.
And what data do you have to support that?
Yeah.
So bottom line, the least restrictive environment is more of a philosophy and less of a physical
location.
And I did talk about where in the school these places might happen.
It's more of what is appropriate for the child and inclusion and being with your typically
developing peers as much as possible.
And if you take that as the underlying driver, then you use that philosophy to determine
where you're going to place a student.
That's it.
As for questions that I researched to death for you.
Totally Facebook.
Just for you.
I'm going to find some more medical ones.
So some Medicaid, family direct type questions for next time.
Any parting thoughts?
Anything I said that you wish I hadn't or you wish you would have elaborated on?
No, I guess.
I mean, we said it how many times that all of the it's individualized.
So so many of these conversations are just that individual for the individual student.
So if there are questions, they're individualized.
So some of these they're just not it's not in a textbook.
It's not in a there's no there's no decision.
There's not.
It's a it is a team decision conversation.
So just be a part of your team.
And if you have new data or questions and you don't have to wait a year for an IEP meeting,
you can request you can request them.
Well thank you so much, everyone out there in podcast land for giving us a listen.
As always, if you are in Idaho or planning on moving to Idaho and have any questions
on systems or services for children with disabilities, please consider reaching out to us on our
website, IPULidaho.org that is I P U L Idaho dot org, or by calling us at 208-342-5884.
Be sure to tune in next time.
Until then, this has been unlimited parenting.
Thanks for listening.