This is Jimmy and Annette, and we are living
up in a down world. We're so glad that you've
joined us today. And it's a little bit different.
This will be, shock and awe, this will be Annette,
Dame Annette, as Adam Curry calls you. This will
be Annette's first time to do a video podcast.
So I'm going to welcome you to Conversations
today. Thank you. I was a little reluctant. Why
were you reluctant? Well, I'm just not, I'm a
little camera shy. Because you're a girl. A little
camera shy, and I'm a girl. Do you remember that
time we had to do a, we were doing a commercial
type thing for a church in the Dallas -Fort Worth
area? And every time the camera came on, you
just went total blank. I couldn't do it. I mean,
like, freeze. And I'd say, just say something.
You're good at this. You're on camera every week.
I talk for a living. I'm a professional Christian
and I talk for a living. Professional Christian.
You know what I mean? I'm a pastor, so it's what
I do. So it's a little easier for me to roll
with it. I'm glad you're on. Where have you been?
I've missed you. We've missed you. You've been
a little busy with all of your interviews, which
have been wonderful, by the way. Thank you. They
have been. Thank you. And I'm excited that you're
going that direction. I love doing it. Yes. Because
I love hearing, I love stories. It's the power
of story. And so the whole idea behind conversation,
living up and down world conversations, is the
power of story. It's letting people tell their
stories. And I've had some really unique, interesting
people on. We've got more lined out that are
going to be amazing. And so be watching for those.
My new favorite one that you have lined out,
he's actually coming soon. We just need to get
it on the schedule, is Dr. Kiltz. Oh, Robert
Kiltz. I love that man. Dr. Robert Kiltz. He's
a fertility doctor in the carnivore world. He's
actually been carnivore for what? 16 years. 15,
16 years. But what I love about him, let's just
even take carnivore out. Right, exactly. He's
just a joyous man. He is writing a book called
Christ in Carnivore. But he's just so joyful,
so positive. And I'm really excited to be a part
of that podcast, whether I'm in the back. in
the directing or if I'm here with him. We were
on his podcast and now he literally is going
to fly out here and be on our podcast. I'm really
excited about it. Yeah, that was cool. We talked
to him. We saw him in Tennessee. We went to Yuma,
Tennessee and did this carnivore. We spoke again
at one of the meetups for Healing Humanity, Perfect
Human Diet movie, documentary. Movie and series.
Yeah, and it's going to be a weekly series as
well. They're going to do a whole series of things.
Anyway, that's all happening. And they're starting
the hard editing right now as they're wrapping
up the last of the shooting. So that's going
to be great. So we got to see Dr. Kiltz. And
he actually offered. He offered to fly out here.
Fly out here. He's got his own plane. So he's
going to fly out here. And he said, I'd rather
sit down in the studio with you guys like we
did up in Austin. Everybody's pretty impressed
with our studio. Because it's really nice. You
did a phenomenal job designing it. Thank you.
And Faith, who's behind camera, has done a phenomenal
job getting things set up. But it was supposed
to be kind of office studio. Now it's all studio.
It's a studio. Can't really work in here. Well,
I can work in here. All I need is a laptop. I
mean, that's it in my Bible. I'm good to go.
It's a little bit more cluttered than I can work
in. Faith and you are perfect for this. It's
a working studio now. Before it was a pretty
studio. Now it's a working studio because we've
added the cameras. So I'll be glad when I have
my own private office, which hopefully will start
soon. So what have you been up to? I mean, you
got behind instead of being. In front of the
camera, you just realize, gosh, I think I need
to sit behind the camera on these conversations
to help direct a little bit. Yeah, I'm interested
in doing that. It also involves me in the conversation
because I get to hear what you are talking about.
I may have to interject every now and then because
you know how I am. Are you going to need a microphone
like over there? I might. At church, I've begged
you to give me a microphone so that when you
say something that's a little off, I can say
something. interrupt the whole service. So I
do that a lot. You know, I just do it with my
voice, not with the microphone. So I might need
to do that. You might need to consider doing
that. Somebody's got to keep you straight. So
we've been doing a lot of speaking, been doing
two carnivore meetups. That's been fantastic.
I mean, and here's what I love about that space
is that we get to bring Jesus into a place where
you don't classically think of about. Church,
Jesus, spirituality. And yet the mind, body,
spirit connection is so critical to having whole
health, holistic health. I mean, not just having.
What good is it if you get your body and your
diet and shape and all that and you're eating
well, but your mind's a wreck or you have mental
health issues or spiritually you're void. And
so we've got to get all three of those components
integrated. That's really the mark of maturity,
isn't it? When you begin to integrate mind, body,
spirit, and you become that whole person. And
isn't that the goal of life on this planet is
to become a whole person? It's always been our
goal since we met. The Bible calls that maturity.
And it literally is. It's the integration of
a lot of things. My word for the year, I've said
this before, but it's important, is the word
convergence. And that's how I see that is convergence
is the coming together of all these different
things. And I'm seeing that happen on a lot of
levels right now, which is very exciting. So
we're going to have guests that have a carnivore
story, but we're also going to have guests that
have trauma. in their life that they've been
able to overcome because of Jesus. And I love
that. We're going to kind of have a little bit
of everything on our show. In fact, I'm going
to have a very interesting guest, Pastor Benjamin,
Leon Benjamin. He is part of the White House
Office of Faith who meets with Donald Trump on
a weekly basis to pray in the Oval Office for
him to cover Donald Trump and President Trump
and his cabinet, but also to pray for our nation.
And his words, the Holy Spirit is back in the
Oval Office. I love that. Get to have him on.
He's not going to fly. I think we're going to
do remote unless we get him back out to be with
Laura Logan. With Laura Logan living here in
Fredericksburg, we've talked about tag teaming
some guests. So we may end up doing something
like that. She has a very cool, very impressive
podcast that Luke Coffey is producing called
Going Rogue with Laura Logan or Laura Logan Going
Rogue. One of those. But it's so good. Check
that out. Yeah, it's good. And our friends continue
to roll. Adam and Tina Curry, Curry and the Keeper.
They've actually had some misses lately because
they've had a crazy busy schedule. They've been
busy, been out of town quite a bit. Oh my gosh,
no kidding. So we're all kind of running and
gunning. We are. That's how it feels. Are you
tired? I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited because
I actually do better when my back's against the
wall a little bit. I tend to perform better under
a little pressure. And so actually I kind of
like the craziness. And we've got so many trips
planned over the next. few months that we're
always on the go. So we're going up to Seattle
and we're going to be a part of the Healing Humanity
documentary meetup up there in Seattle. So I'm
excited. We'll get to speak there, share our
story, meet a lot of amazing people who are on
the journey of mind, body, and spirit. So we
just locked that in last night. Yeah, we did.
So I'm super excited. Ashley Rogers. Hooked us
up with that. He's coordinating it with his brother.
They're called the Carnivore Brothers. They have
a great podcast, by the way, the Carnivore Brothers.
And they have a good product. That beef jerky
they make is the best I've ever tasted. I didn't
know they made it. Yeah, they make it. That's
their product. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.
That was amazing. So, yeah, we got an inside
track on some good stuff. It wasn't hard. It
was really good. Not so dried out that it hurt
your mouth, right? So anyway, yeah. So we're
continuing on the journey, doing well with that.
What else is going on? Oh, Easter. We just had
Easter weekend. We had a great Easter services.
We had three services, had almost 1 ,200 people
attend, which is the largest we've ever had in
this church. And so the best part, we had 16.
People accept Christ, which is wonderful. That's
the whole goal. It's beautiful. If one person
accepted Christ, it's worth all the effort and
work that was put into three services and all
the volunteers you have to have to conduct three
services. It was beautiful. It was a beautiful
time. What was the topic? What did I talk on?
Oh, my goodness. Typical Easter message, right?
It was quite impressive that you were able to
get through it. But you talked about... Betrayal.
Betrayal. This is B word. Edit that part. I literally
lost it. We don't do edits. I literally just
kind of lost it for a second. Well, I called
it Breakthrough After Betrayal. Yes, and it was
the first time you've shared our story. You didn't
really share a whole lot because you're trying
to protect the names. I didn't get into the weeds
and protecting the innocent and or guilty. told
three story two or three stories of betrayal
because it's happened more than once to everybody
everybody there is not a human on the planet
that has not experienced someone turning their
back and that's what betrayal is it's a turning
away and it can happen in a million different
ways typically it's someone that you're close
to betrayal Betrayal doesn't happen to some rogue
guy who's following me on Facebook and makes
a bad comment. That's not betrayal. I don't know
that guy. Betrayal is when you've done life.
You've been in people's life intimately. Close.
Yeah. So that was a really good message because
Jesus, he experienced the ultimate betrayal.
Totally understands our pain when we go through
it. He's the one who helps us through that pain.
And so I felt like that was a great sermon for
Easter. And I felt like the Lord led us down
that path because we were listening to a dear,
dear friend of ours, Pastor Steve Berger in Tennessee,
Nashville area. He went through a really horrific
betrayal in his church, which was our church,
but we had already moved here. So we'd been here
several years. But we still considered that our
home base. And when we would visit Nashville
and go see our kids, we'd go back to our church.
And now it doesn't exist. We can't. I know. So
it's heartbreaking for us. I mean, it's still
heartbreaking for us. That betrayal had so many
ripple effects because of the scope of it. And
he shared his story for the first time on Rita
Springer's. So if you get a chance, go watch
this. It's Rita Springer and Steve Berger. So
it's easy to find. You can find it on YouTube.
Super easy. Just look up Rita Springer and Steve
Berger. It's B -E -R -G -E -R. And listen to
him share his story of betrayal as a pastor who
got burned by his own staff. And he was the founding
pastor. Founding pastor. This wasn't just...
Someone who's just been a pastor for a few years.
He was the founding pastor of this church. And
he was in the middle of a transition, transitioning
to become the pastor emeritus. Yes, become the
pastor emeritus. And he was raising up a younger
pastor. Brutal. Brutal. Just brutal. I feel his
pain. The betrayal. I really feel his pain. Well,
we can relate because being in ministry, you
know, it kind of comes part of the... hazard
it's part of the job hazard the hazard of the
job is that those kinds of things are going to
happen because as pastors by nature we tend to
be very trusting and so we kind of give our heart
away and we're very transparent we're just wired
that way so we give our heart away to people
and then when it gets trampled on or turned away
it it's it's a deep wound but i will say this
i feel like through the years we've gone through
this several times several deep ones, but there
are a lot of little ones, but much deeper. And
every time we've gone through it, our recovery
time has been exponentially quicker. Yeah, it
has. It's like we bounce back. And I think too,
as we've been in this for now, for me, it's been
40 years, 40 plus years, 42 years. And for you.
32. Ish. Yeah. 32 years. What happens is the
older you get, the longer you're in this, your
focus becomes more on Jesus and the kingdom of
God than it does people in the church. And I
don't mean that in a disparaging way at all.
It's just our focus has shifted to a much, it's
almost like a higher altitude. It's like a 30
,000 foot level as opposed to. Just constantly
being down there with your feelings out and everything.
We're still that. We're still very trusting.
And to me, that's what makes our church what
it is. I think in the last few years, we've had
to allow ourself to become more trusting. If
not, we can't be the pastors God's called us
to be. Because you have to, in order to be a
good pastor, you really need to have some transparency.
You need to be able to help people understand
that. Their pain, you understand their pain because
you've been through pain yourself. And if you
keep that all to yourself and you act as if you've
never experienced anything, it's hard for people
to relate to you. That reminds me. It does, of
a pastor that we've had. That we've had who will
go unnamed. But that guy would get up and preach
a solid hour every time he preached. And he was
brilliant. And opening the Bible and getting
in the word and teaching. But he never talked
about his personal life. Never shared his own
stories. And you have to think about it. The
whole idea of the Bible, it's a story. It has
a story arc. And story is what makes us who we
are. Our stories are what's compelling. For example,
if I'm listening to a preacher. I love I'm nerdy.
So I get into the scripture and the Hebrew, the
Aramaic and the Greek and all the different nuances
of Bible. But at some point I can drift just
like anybody else. Right. If that's all there
is. But if that teacher, that pastor teacher
leans into a story, I find myself leaning forward
in my chair and engaging because now I start
to connect. And so good storytellers, it's an
art. You can see the church, their reaction.
Because you're up in the pulpit. Oh, I can physically
see it. You can physically see when people become
engaged or when they're, you know, just looking
around. That atmosphere changes. It does. You
know, I can tell if I've droned on about a point
too long. Yeah, I rode that horse too far. And
I can tell, I can feel the room. But man, you
lean into a story and a personal story, especially
something that honestly involves pain or discouragement
or, you know, whatever, you know, any of the
D words, right? Because that's universal. Everybody's
experienced pain. And the Bible is full of stories
about people who had massive setbacks. And the
way we always say it is a setback is a setup
for a God kind of comeback. And really that when
you begin to view it that way and have that perspective
on it, that's living up in a down world. Doesn't
mean you're in a down world, but can you live
up in the midst of that? Can you rise above it?
Well, not every day. I mean, you're going to
have those days, those moments, right? But when
you can relate and connect to the Bibles, you
know, the stories in the Bible, but now let's
bring that into real life, into you and me and
all of us telling our stories. There's nothing
more powerful than your own personal story. Yeah.
Now there's nothing. So betrayal connects with
that story part in all of us where we can go,
I have a chapter or two on that too in my book,
in my life. And a lot of people, you know, we
haven't always handled that correctly. No. But
I believe that as it's continued to happen over
time because we're living in a fallen world and
we're going to have challenges like that. Hopefully,
as we mature in the Word, then God helps us to
be able to handle it rightly. You talked about
responding versus reacting on Sunday, and hopefully
we can respond better the more we grow in Christ.
Because I know I haven't responded properly in
the past. You talked about... The games, the
different games. The games people play. I think
you should share those. Yeah, I'll share some
of that. Because that was so good. I was visiting
with Tina yesterday, and she was quoting the
different games. And her and Adam were talking
about it on the way home, and she said, this
is exactly what they've experienced. We all do
this, right? And I was like, yeah, we really
all have. played this game when it comes to being
betrayed so when betrayal happens obviously you're
the shock and all because we don't you usually
see it but the very nature of betrayal is it's
a surprise it's you didn't see it coming right
if you saw it coming you might could have headed
it off at the pass or or done something to so
betrayal typically comes as a surprise and when
it does it takes you out it takes you off guard
It's like the death of someone because you lose
something that was so meaningful and precious
to you. And so we play these games, these head
games. Remember that song, Foreigner? Head games.
I always love that. So the games we play when
we were betrayed, first of all, the shame game.
And the shame game is after a betrayal, we begin
to second guess our role in the betrayal. So
let's say you're the victim. You're on the victim
side of it. And someone has betrayed you. And
then what happens is the shame game is you start
to overthink. Can I ask the question? Do we have
any overthinkers? And man, hands went up everywhere
and elbows were bumping. Wives were bumping husbands,
husbands bumping wives, finger pointing, all
that. Because we all have a degree of that, right?
And that overthinking and what happens when we're
betrayed, we just go into this hole because this.
The sin against relationship is one of the most
egregious sins in scripture. The very reason
you and I were created, all of us were created,
all of our friends that are listening with us
today and are watching. We were created for relationship.
And when relationship gets violated, it's one
of the darkest, hardest sins. And it's the sin
that happened with Satan and God. I mean, it
was a violation of relationship. It was rebellion.
And that is what rebellion is. It's a violation
against relationship. You don't rebel against
things. You rebel against people. And so that's
what happens. So the shame game, you start overthinking.
Now, all of a sudden you start. almost like codependently
taking on the guilt i must have done something
wrong we actually asked these questions what
did i do wrong could i have done something different
is there something wrong with me am i broken
beyond repair that's the shame game and oh the
enemy can leverage that pain and leverage that
shame oh the enemy loves shame he's attracted
to that by the way you know god's attracted to
faith the enemy is attracted to shame and so
we just we just go into that hole Have you ever
played that game? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Many of
us. Did you win? Did you lose? No. It's always
a losing proposition. It's a lose -lose. It's
a lose deal, no doubt. That's a hard one. So
here's the next one, the blame game. Blame game
can work both ways. This is a refusal to own
any part of the situation. So you're always blaming
others. It's all their fault. They did this to
me, you know, and not owning any part. And if
there's anything I've learned through the years,
hopefully as i'm maturing i am definitely getting
older about maturing but i'm getting older is
that there's always something for me to own in
in a breach of a relationship it may have been
i i didn't respond to a call or even a text sometimes
these days text is kind of we put a lot of weight
on that or i didn't respond well or or i didn't
i didn't think it was important i didn't deem
what they had to say anyway it could be a million
things right and so When we become quick to own
our part in it, which would be the same as we
would say be quick to repent, which means to
turn around and face, that is the best way to
sort of eradicate that and not fall into this
trap of suddenly blaming them. You know, it's
funny how people quit things. Sometimes even
a good parting can get messed up at the very
end. Like somebody's leaving a job situation.
They're moving on to another town. It might have
been a positive thing, but our human nature tends
to not do well with goodbyes. That's true. Particularly
when you're leaving vicinity and proximity. And
so we will create drama because it's easier to
walk away from somebody that you're mad at than
the people you love. Boy, is that not the truth.
That's real, isn't it? Yeah. It's the same reason
why... there's a dog who comes up to you in the
yard. You know, that dog belongs to somebody
else down the street and you don't want to be
mean to it. You got to get in your car and go
somewhere. So what do you do? You don't kick
the dog, but you try to shoo it, go back home.
And you feel bad about it, but you got, I got
to get that dog home. It's going to get hurt.
So for its own good, you yell at it and try to
scare it. So to run off, I know it's heartbreaking.
We do this with people though, where we don't.
do well with goodbyes. When I left Dave Ramsey's
organization to go back into full -time ministry,
when we moved here, I went to my supervisor and
I said, look, people don't do well with goodbyes.
Can we break the mold on this? Because he would
just go and put a box. Not Dave, but the supervisors,
the culture. Put a box. It's kind of like, oh,
you're leaving us? Well, goodbye. Don't even
take two weeks. Just go. Here's a box. That was
really. Not some good leavings. So I wanted to
break that mold. I hope you did. Well, I wanted
to set a new trend. I hope you did. So I went
to my supervisor. He was amazing, obviously,
Brian Bush and other people in the chain of command.
And I went to them. I said, I'm going to ask
a favor. And I know it's never been done here,
but would you pray over me? Would you bring the
department together? It's about 40 people, 50
people. And would y 'all gather around me, lay
hands on me, and pray me out of here? Pray me
into the next season of ministry. Because you're
not leaving out of. No. I'm not mad. Let's make
this a healthy thing. Yes, exactly. A positive.
A positive. So I don't want to leave. I feel
like I'm being sent. And they did it. Which is
what we've done with people. Like when we were
at a military church, our church was mostly military.
That was back in Abilene. Yeah. And every time
that a person was getting. PCS, is that the way
you call it? PCS, we would bring them up and
we would pray and send them off. They weren't
leaving because they were mad. They were leaving
because they had to go to their next assignment.
So we need to get better at saying goodbye. We
do. So that we don't, so in betrayal, so when
betrayal happens, wow, that's a punch. That's
a hit. That is. How do you override anger and
bitterness so that from your end, It can be a
blessing. Ooh, that's a tough one. Well, I had
a young girl come up to me at church a few weeks
ago who had been betrayed by a relative, kind
of a relative of a relative. And she said, I
don't know how to get over this. And I said,
the best way to get over something like this
is to pray for them and pray for justice. But
you're not praying for anything bad to happen,
but you're putting it in God's hands to handle
rather than you having to carry that. And I'll
never forget because she came up to me on Sunday
and said, that worked. I've been praying for
that person. And she said, I'm graduating from
high school next month, and I have made the choice
not to invite them. But I feel like that's the
boundary I need to set up because I told her,
you can pray for someone, but set up boundaries.
Now, that's a response, not a reaction. That's
what you want to see. This was a 17 -year -old
girl who responded rightly because she came and
asked for help and said, what can I do? I know.
She's actually going to be going to a Christian
college, which I love, and she's super sweet.
But the fact that she even came and asked, because
most people, people just live with that anger,
that angst towards that person. But she literally
said, I need help. I need help. And I think that's
very mature. It probably took me until I was
55 years old to get to that point. And here she
is 17. It was beautiful. One of the things you
and I have said for years, one of our Pastor
Jay -isms, is we want to turn contempt into compassion.
And boy, the best way to do that is to start
praying for somebody you're mad at. That has
been one of the keys for me through the years
of getting over things. So I don't hold on to
resentment. I don't let a root of bitterness
grow down in me. It's to begin to pray for that
person. But it doesn't mean that we're going
to just, Live pain free because not at all. The
pain we had, especially from this last betrayal
we had. It's real. It's so deep that I hurt for
our relationship. The pain is still, I don't
know, it's not buried, but it's there in the
fact that I have compassion for these people.
But I also wish that it didn't happen and that
we could reconcile, which we tried. They wouldn't.
One person wouldn't. And it's still hard to comprehend
that we went through it. And so the hurt, God
can take away the pain of that hurt, but the
hurt is still there, I guess is the best way
to put it. Because it's a broken relationship.
It's like going through a divorce, which we've
both been through. Some people go through divorces
and they don't want that divorce. And so they
have to live with the constant pain. But the
person that can bring them through that, obviously,
is Jesus. He's the only one that can bring you
through the pain. Because the answer is not a
technique. It's not a technique. It's not a trick
or four easy ways to shake off bitterness. The
answer is a person. Gosh, talk about a revelation.
I actually wrote my daily grind about the person
of Jesus Christ himself. That's what we need.
That's who we need. And yet we tend to always
turn to other things first. And we go to him
last. Yeah, we go to alcohol. I looked at my
cup. It's coffee, I promise. It's black rifle.
And it's my happy cup. Wake up and do my happy
dance. Mercy me cup. So anyway. But we turn to
things. Dudes can turn to porn. I guess females
too, right? I mean, we turn to distractions.
Because we want that pain, so we want to numb
out. Yeah, or sugar cookies. You know, whatever.
Sugar cookies. Well, we have a freezer full of
them here at the church. No, they're almond cookies.
It's torture. It is. I know, but they've still
got sugar. Yes, they are sugar. They're gluten
-free. No, they're not. Yeah, it's almonds. I
don't think that—it's probably an almond extract,
Jimmy. I don't think it's an almond cookie. Those
are actually— Yes. That's even worse. I know.
Okay, let's don't go there. So we digress. Here's
another one, the name game. The name game. The
name game can go a couple of different ways where
we'll start calling. We'll label somebody. They
are awful. They did this to me. And what happens
is— It's hard to pray for somebody when you're
at a point where you're labeling them, categorizing
them. And we do that because if I can put them
in a box, I can set the box over here. So it's
a coping mechanism where we're trying to cope
with pain, cope with betrayal. Betrayal is such
a breach of relationship. We all, I mean, one
of our basic human needs is belonging. It is.
To be loved, to belong, to fit in. And so when
there's a breach of that, That's like one of
the deepest cuts. So one of the ways we cope
with it is we call them names. We label them.
Well, they were they they didn't care. They were
in fact, they weren't even a good friend anyway.
I never really I mean, we just start rationalizing
and negotiating in our own mind a way that we
can categorize them so that we don't have to
feel anything. Right. Except for anger. Right.
Right. So we put them over here in their little
category in box. And that's just that's a way
of dodging the issue. And one of the things that
is so important in the healing process is to
refuse that and to actually feel the pain you're
having. To actually say, you know what? This
hurts. It sucks to be me today. I'm going to
embrace that instead of throw it off. Because
I'm going to trust God in this pain that he can
heal me. He can give me his Holy Spirit to navigate
it. Again, the answer is a person, not a technique.
He's the comforter. He is. He's the teacher.
He's the counselor. Friend. He's everything we
need. So I lean into that. So that name game,
sorry, I didn't want to get too far off on that,
but it's important. I think it'll help people,
is that we use these different words or labels.
To soften, to reframe, or even to sometimes deny
and obscure what happened. And that's when it
gets dangerous. Absolutely. So here's another
one. This is the last one. The MAME game. Do
you know I had to look up MAME four times to
make sure I was spelling it right? I know. I
even looked at your notes. It's not. Literally,
it's M -A -I -M. So when one animal maims another
animal, it's M -A -I -M. I know. That is so weird.
What can I say? You learn something new every
day. So the maim game, it means seeking to hurt,
damage, or punish the betrayer in response to
the pain you've experienced. It's retaliation.
It's revenge. It's going on social media and
getting stupid with your keyboard because you
so want them to hurt. in that moment maturity
is willing to delay gratification because the
gratification would be i'm going to hurt them
they just hurt me that's gratification instant
gratification so but maturity will take their
foot off the gas pedal and say i'm going to step
back or i'm going to push back from the table
i need to let this settle because if i say something
right now yes it's going to be bad And there
have been many times, you know me, when I've
been hurt, what do I do? I get quiet, don't I?
Because I don't want to say something that I
will regret and say it out of emotions and anger.
And a lot of people don't just, I mean, they
will begin to talk and they'll tell others. you
know, how they were hurt and how that person
hurt them. There is a relational component to
that. It's called validation. Yes. We want to
be validated in our pain. We want people to come
around us, pat us on the shoulder or the back
and say, oh, you deserve to be angry. What they
did to you is wrong. We all do this. Again, this
goes back to that Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
right? One of them is. belonging. We need to
belong. So we want affirmation and we want people
to validate our pain. Join us. Right. I remember
Rice Brooks. I've, I've used this quote many
times through the years, but it was one of the
most compelling things I ever heard Dr. Rice
Brooks say. And he said this, he said, for every
step you take away from the cross, there'll be
10 or 12 Christians patting you on the back,
telling you you're doing the right thing. You
know, and what he meant by stepping away from
the cross could be anger, retaliation, blame,
all the things we've talked about, the shame,
all these things we've talked about in it. And
most people, a lot of people leave the church
because they blame the whole church. But yet
it was a few people. The church did this to me.
I thought, what? Or they'll blame God. And God
doesn't cause evil to happen to people. He doesn't
do that. We have our own will. And we can't.
We can't ignore the role that the devil has to
play, that Satan, the demonic, spiritual warfare.
Yes, number one. If he can get people to turn
on each other. Think about it. What would the
devil hate the most about any of this, about
God's creation? He's created. Yes, he's created.
The object of God's love. So everything about
the enemy. is to turn us on each other. That's
the violation of relationship. And so whenever
we have these breaches in relationships, the
Bible tells us that we've been given the ministry
of reconciliation. But here's the... The key
factor in that, it takes two to reconcile. It
does. It takes two sides. You can have the best
intentions, try to go reconcile with somebody,
but if they're not ready and they're still offended
or whatever caused it, then you're spitting in
the wind. Right. I mean, literally. But you have
to be able to deal with that in your heart so
that you don't let that root of bitterness take.
So help us with that. So what do we do when...
The other person won't reconcile. So the temptation
is to get everybody to validate your pain and
to say you have a right to be angry and get all
the pats on the back and sympathy, which we all
have done at one point or another. Hopefully
we're growing up, right? So how do we get over
that? How do we forgive somebody who's not repentant
and who doesn't want to reconcile? I love what
you said on Sunday because you talked about shaking
the dust off your feet, but literally you have
to shake the dust off your feet and you have
to move on and you have to allow, give it to
God for him to deal with them. They're the ones
who are going to be judged for them not coming
in alignment with what God's words, especially
if they're a Christian. If they're not a Christian,
you can't expect, you know, God to do a work
in them because they don't know God, but you
can also ask God to be the judge of that person.
But yeah, you definitely have to shake it off.
We have to get to a point to where we can shake
off that pain. I had an experience where I did
that. I was very young in ministry as a youth
minister. And this older deacon had been really
mean to me. I mean, just he wouldn't cut me any
slack whatsoever. We were winning kids to Jesus.
The youth group was blowing up. Things were going
great. But it didn't look like what he wanted
it to look like. It didn't look like what he
wanted it to look like. He wanted us to get.
church kids to church, not those wild kids that
listen to Metallica and had skateboards. So I
was bringing in kind of the rougher crowd. Not
rougher crowd, that's a terrible way to say it,
but kids that were not church kids, which is
my background. Which is the whole point of Christianity.
So I'm trying to reach guys that were like me,
right? And so they're coming in. So anyway, I
go to his house because I just want to reconcile.
I'm like, I don't like living with that. I go
to him. and he literally the short story is he
threw me out of his house not physically he just
but he came at me i mean poor man was so frail
he would have probably snapped in two but but
he was old and mean he was a curmudgeon and he
he basically pushed not physically but pushed
me out of his house which was and i walked into
my car and literally The Holy Spirit showed me
a picture of what they did in the Bible that
would shake the dust off their feet. So I got
to my car and I just, not in a big dramatic way,
no one was looking, but I just sort of clicked
my heels together, just symbolic of knocking
the dust off my shoes. And I shook the dust off
my feet. And that's actually a Hebraic, Israeli
thing that they do when there's a breach and
when they're... they shake the dust off their
feet. Or if they don't receive what you bring
to them, you shake the dust off your feet. In
the book of Acts, Paul talking about this. Yeah,
when you leave and they don't receive, and Jesus
said, if they don't receive your peace. So there
is that there. So just to land the plane on this,
we're talking about betrayal. It's a deep pain.
It's a deep wound, one of the worst. And I know
that there are people that are watching and or
listening who have. Definitely gone through this.
What are some things that we can help them with?
Just in a short, what is the best thing, maybe
the primary thing? You've been betrayed. What
do you do next? Well, you have to go to God and
ask him, is there any truth to anything that
has happened? Wow, you nailed that. There's always
some sort of little bit of truth. A kernel of
truth. A kernel, like you say. And so I think
that's the first thing that we need to do is
examine ourselves. So here's a simple way to
do it for our friends that are watching or listening.
Just go to Jesus. Straight to Jesus. Say, Jesus,
is this true? Is this true? Have I missed something?
And I ask a dangerous question. What are my blind
spots? And he shows me. He comes to a conversation
or whatever. Did I miss something? And when you
do that, you open yourself up to being teachable.
I think that one of the hardest or the worst
things that we can do is become unteachable.
No matter how old we are, no matter what we've
been through, no matter what our degree or pedigree
is or our social standing, if we are unteachable.
then we're not usable. Right. And so that's,
you nailed it, Jesus. Yeah. Is this true? Is
this true? And then be ready to hear the answer.
I know. Because it may not be totally true, but
there may be a... There may be some kind of nugget
in there that you need to, that God wants you
to work on. And I have had experiences where
I have owned that nugget, picked up the phone,
called the individual and repented of that. And
you did. But he's the one who betrayed me. But
he betrayed you. And it cost us dearly. It cost
us our life savings, cost us one of our cars,
our house. I mean, we lost huge on that. It sent
us into a deep, deep pit. And yet we just decided
not to despair. We decided not to let it destroy
us or to quit what we know God's called us to
do. Which is interesting because you talked about
a lot of people that you went to school with
that are pastors that are not in the ministry
anymore. And a lot of it has to do with betrayal
or expectations not being met. You think you're
going to become a pastor and you're going to
grow a large church and everybody's going to
love you. And it's not necessarily that way.
I mean, we go through our own tests and trials.
And a lot of people don't have the skin to be
able, that thick skin to be able to handle that.
And I think that's really sad. What's the statistic
of pastors that leave? Around 7 ,000 a month
in America. It's unbelievable to me. That was
one of the more recent after COVID. That's just
unbelievable. So let's land the plane with a
prayer. How about we pray for our friends? First
of all, I want you to go to livingupandadownworld
.com and then they can... Click on subscribe.
They can leave a review, which is very helpful,
by the way. Or on YouTube, give us a like, subscribe
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not fancy. It's just to let you know the next
podcast is up, so you get a heads up on that.
And also, if you're interested in hearing this
message on betrayal, you can go to bridgefbg
.com. And you can go down there and that will
be archived on our church website. By the way,
we didn't mention this, we're pastors of a church.
We pastor a church called Bridge Church in Fredericksburg,
Texas, and it's our joy to do what we do. And
so thank you for being with us today. So can
I pray us out? Yeah, pray us out. Father, in
Jesus' name, I pray for every person who will
hear this or see this podcast and that they will
find encouragement and realize that they are
not alone. In their pain, they're not alone.
In their suffering, they're not alone. In betrayal,
that it is common. It is one of the things that
is common to all people, all mankind, humankind.
But Father, I'm asking as a favor for them, even
as they listen, that something that was said
today would be a leverage point towards healing
and wholeness and grace and mercy. And that,
Father, they would find themselves moving from
contempt to compassion. and on the road to healing
and wholeness. We pray it in Jesus' name. Amen.
If you have any questions on this topic, feel
free to write. You can write us on our website,
livingupinthedownworld .com, and I'll be glad
to get back with you or Annette, both of us.
Whatever we can do to encourage you on the road
to wholeness, healing, and living up in the down
world. You guys have an amazing week. On purpose,
thank you for being back. I'm so happy you're
here.