All right, five, four, three, two, one. All right.
So, all right. Well, we're live now -ish, live
-ish. So I'm so glad you could make it out today.
I know you're busy. Your life's moving in a thousand
directions. We're leaving tomorrow for Austin.
I'm going to be praying for the open the Senate
floor prayer on Thursday, but we're going to
go down tomorrow and get settled in there. It's
kind of an interesting thing. You know, you go
up to that massive campus, the Capitol at Austin.
It's so intimidating just walking in the place.
And it's like catacombs in there. I've done this
my third time, and I'm still thinking, which
door do I need to go into? I can never remember.
I usually end up on the wrong end of the building.
But so so I had a tight week, too, but I was
so glad I could get you in. So thank you. I'm
glad it worked out. Really glad you're here.
And I'm looking forward to just hearing some
of your story. And we'll do that in just a minute.
I do want to take a moment to pray and welcome.
Welcome our folks that are joining us today,
either by audio or by video. Thanks for this
is living up in a down world. We're thrilled
that you're here. So let's bow our head for word
of prayer. Father, thank you for. the privilege
and the joy of getting to do what we do. Everything
we do is such a privilege from you that we get
to do it. We live in awe and wonder of who you
are. And Lord, as we visit today, as we have
a conversation today about God, the world, and
other things, Lord, whatever you want to be said,
we... We lean into that and rest into that. I
pray for anyone who's watching today that they
would find themselves lifted and encouraged by
what they're hearing here today and that maybe
they will be both encouraged and inspired on
their journey of faith as well. And so we consecrate
this to you and give it to you in Jesus' name.
Amen. This is Pastor Jimmy Pruitt. I want to
welcome you today to Living Up in a Down World,
and I have a very special guest that I'm so excited
about, Krish Dunham. Did I say that right? Perfect.
Really? Okay, I'm shocked. But I want to welcome
you to today's podcast, and thank you for being
here and making time to be here. My joy. Thanks
for having me. I know you've had a busy morning
already. You've been teaching classes out at
the Patriot Academy, and I want to get a little
more into the Patriot Academy and how you ended
up there. But I want to go back a little bit.
I want to get back into your story because I
was talking to Pastor Russ, and he said, you've
got to get him to tell his testimony. So awesome.
And your connection to Zig Ziglar, who has always
been a hero from a distance for me. I never got
to meet him, but I've learned so much just through
his books. at the top right there was that was
the one that i read that in college back in the
day so tell me a little bit about just give us
a little bit of your background your journey
yeah to kind of summate it in a reader's digest
version like the old people would say i was born
and raised in india was raised in an orthodox
brahmin family when i say orthodox people kind
of wonder but my father's uncle's names are actually
engraved on the temple stones in india so i came
from piety and grew up in that tradition. Dad
was a little more liberated from the standpoint
that my father worked for an American company
in India, and we would meet a lot of the expat
kids while I was growing up. And so like most
people in India and most people where I grew
up, America was going to be the destination since
I was about seven. So the dreams of getting here
eventually went and did my business school in
India, but met a young girl there who is the
opposite of every immigrant story. Her parents
were students at Michigan State when she was
born here, but she was raised in India. Her father
came back to India and never wanted to stay.
And so when I told my bride that I wanted to
come here, she became an American citizen in
India and came over in 84, brought me over in
86. So that's the background story and my upbringing
in a different worldview. And like most young
immigrants who came here who went to college,
I didn't have that luxury. I ended up going to
work. And the only job you can get in those days
is sales. And so somehow I found my way. I won
a couple of sales contests and ended up at a
Zig Ziglar seminar. So that's the genesis. Zig
Ziglar. There it is. So when I heard Mr. Ziglar
speak in 1991 at the Irving Calvary Temple in
Dallas on January 26th, my world changed. I suddenly
realized there was possibility. He told me that
I was not the little immigrant kid from a small
town who would struggle all of his life, that
I had the potential of God within me. I didn't
know what that meant. Many years later, he was
the one who led me to Christ. But I went to work
for him in 1991. And in 1992, I caught his eye.
And he said he wanted me to be beside him. And
that was the thing. I was his man Friday. I was
his male nurse. I was his director of international
ops. I co -wrote a book with him, traveled all
over the world with him. And he became my spiritual
father very young in a different country and
pretty much raised me at a time when the father's
influence was important. So that's the journey
that took me from India. There's a lot of depth
in that. I wrote about it in a book. But the
reality is... He was just a remarkable human
being, and I had the privilege of just a sidebar.
I took his shoes to be shined in Iowa when nobody
knew who I was. I was the only one he allowed
to take to the bathroom when he had Alzheimer's
and forgot who he was. We had that relationship.
Wow. Tell me, what was it about his character
that riveted you, that drew you in? I want to
spend time with that man. I want to know that
man. Yeah, when I first heard him speak, like
I said, in that January of 1991, he said some
things and I filled eight pages of notes. But
his colloquialisms were simple, very one -liners
of great positivity. I somehow realized that
at the end of that three -hour seminar, I had
learned more in that three hours than all my
college degrees, particularly when I got a master's.
And like a typical Indian, I was educated. But
his common sense wisdom was something that I
was lacking in what I was raised with. To make
it sound probably more eloquent now because I've
been a speaker for 30 years, I was raised to
compete. Mr. Ziegler taught me to complete. Love
that. Love that. I love his colloquialisms. I
love those short, easy to remember, just bites.
Always ask the question, you probably have too,
how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
And I used to, when I was in college, I would
struggle with learning large pieces of content.
But I learned to break them down into small bite
-sized nuggets. Took that into ministry with
me. I'm that way today. Everybody jokes about
the Pastor Jay -isms. Right. Clarify your why.
You know, you leak out what you're full of. You
become what you behold. I mean, I've got a million
of these. But Zig Ziglar kind of helped me with
that because I learned the power of a nugget.
A truth. you could hold and remember. Yeah, and
one of the things that he said in the very early
days that captivated me was, he says, you treat
your wife like a thoroughbred, you won't end
up with an egg. And in modern contextualization,
it sounds like a sexist thing to say, but there's
so much depth in it. And he would have all these
things that were kind of quasi -edgy, but he
also introduced me to the late, great Adrian
Rogers, who also was a thing. And so I use Adrian
Rogers' line now when I speak and say these edgy
things. I said, but I'm man enough. And if you've
been offended by what I say, I'm going to stand
right here so you can come apologize. I love
Adrian Rogers. My heritage, my Christian heritage
was Southern Baptist. And so I went to Southwestern
Seminary. And so he was kind of an icon in that
world and such. Such an eloquent voice for the
gospel. So this was, I mean, you know, so like
you said, even though I was not a Christian,
all my early influence about people who were
positive happened to come from the Baptist background
because of Mr. Ziegler's own Baptist heritage.
And then in 1993, something radical happened
because I was following him. I was traveling
with him. My wife, who was raised Christian,
we had our boy. We're going to have our boy.
And she says, I'm going to raise him in the faith.
I didn't know what that meant. I said, more power
to you. She said, we're going to get him baptized
and my parents are going to come from India.
So I said, it's a big deal. She says, yeah, it's
a big deal. So I said, can I invite anybody?
The only Christian I knew was important was Mr.
Ziegler. And for me, it was almost self -serving
that. Yeah, she'd have her family, but I'd have
a celebrity. And when I asked Mr. Ziegler a very
simple question, will you come to my son's baptism?
He asked me a question nobody had ever asked.
He said, why do you want to send your son to
someplace you're not sure you're going? Wow.
And when I held my boy a little later in the
hospital because we were preparing for the baptism
before. I did not want to be separated from that
feeling. And I told my mother -in -law who had
prayed for me for seven years that when we baptized
Nick, I'd like to be baptized too. So I had the
privilege of being baptized with my son and Mr.
Ziegler was in attendance. Oh, that is beautiful.
Beautiful. I was going to ask how you came to
know Christ and how that rolled out. And you
know, it's amazing how God will put spiritual
markers. In our lives, you know, and there'll
be a handful of people that you can point back
to and say, that one sowed this kind of seed,
or this one said something that made me think
this way and took me in a different trajectory.
And so how old were you when you finally? So
this would have been circa 1930. This would have
been 1993. So I was 31. 31. And so he, you know,
he had that, that kind of very simple challenge
as he. Another thing I was teaching this morning,
one thing he taught me was, I said, will you
be my mentor? Because I was fascinated by him.
And many people asked him to be. So he says,
you need to make a commitment to two things.
And you need to sign this blank sheet of paper.
And it was fascinating. Nobody had ever talked
to me like that. But it was very simple and very
practical. So I signed the blank sheet of paper.
And on it, he wrote, today, I, Krish Dhanam,
commit to being a 10 -year overnight success.
Wow. He said, son, I'll be your mentor if you
let me teach you the long game. And second, if
you allow me permission to challenge every assumption
you've ever held. Wow. Those two things changed
my worldview, changed my trajectory. That introduction
to faith allowed me to start a ministry and now
share the gospel in 80 countries. Beautiful,
brother. I love it. It makes my heart leap. I
love that you. you were willing to ask him to
be your mentor. And I have done that many times
through the years. I learned the hard way back
when I was playing tennis in high school. I thought
if I can challenge people. to play me that are
better than me, it's going to elevate my game,
even though I'm going to get snot beat out of
me every time, you know, if I can get over that,
if I can get over losing someday, I'll win. And
that's what I did. And I started as a young man
and through the years, especially when I stepped
into faith, I didn't become a Christian until
I was my last week of high school. So literally
as I was stepping out of high school graduation,
I became a follower of Jesus. Before that, I
had no real point of reference. And so I was
a blank slate going into college and step. into
young adulthood and I was hungry for fathers
spiritual fathers I didn't understand the concept
back then I just knew that I would see somebody
they were further down the road than me and I
would go and I would ask them would you would
you coach me would you mentor me would you lead
me and so God put just a number of mature men
in my life at various seasons that walked with
me for a season and then their time was done
it'd be time for somebody else and even to this
day I reached out to Max Lucado has become a
dear friend of mine. And about three years ago,
I reached out to Max, four years ago now. I said,
would you be my mentor? And he said, Jimmy, I'll
be the worst mentor you've ever had. But yes,
I will do it, but I'll be terrible. So when he
texts me to catch up with me, he'll say, from
the worst mentor ever, Max. But he mentors me
from a distance. I don't demand his time. I study
his teaching and preaching. But that's one person
I'm... is on my list of people I'd like to meet,
so now I know who knows him. Well, what you see
is what you get with that man. He is the real
deal. I devoured all his books. I buy every book
when it comes out. It's a sidebar, but I learned
the art of the triad communication from his triad
writing because he would always write in three
forms. He would give three illustrations, goals,
dreams, ambitions. He would always give you the
track. When I started speaking like that, I realized
that, everybody will pick one track, and you'll
be able to get three people simultaneously. So
it's a very unique style of writing he has. Beautiful.
Very descriptive. Now, I don't know if he calls
it that, but I said that I call it the triad
method of teaching. Yeah, he always, like, will
give you three illustrations. You would probably
blow his mind if he said that. He said, there's
a name for this? That's Max. When I met Max.
Funny story. I'm going to be really transparent
here. I had been hired to come aboard of Oak
Hills Church. It's the one that Max has led for
years. And I was working for Dave Ramsey in Nashville.
I was doing that. I was in that world. Go big
or go home. That's Dave. But we knew we were
called back to Texas. So I reached out to a friend
who's working for Max. And I said, are there
any openings there? I said, I've been doing.
Financial Peaks University, a love day, but I'm
a pastor. I need to be back doing what I'm called
to do, even though I was doing it anyway in that
environment. And sure enough, the door opened.
Long story short, I ended up there. I had not
had a chance to meet Max, but I bet all the other
staff. I'm over there for a meeting in San Antonio.
I have to go for a bathroom break, right? I walk
in there. Guess who's in there? Max. And, you
know, man law. Where I grew up is you don't talk.
You know, hey, how's it going? You mind your
own business, right? He starts talking. I mean,
he talks like we're standing at a – we're at
a cafe or something. And, I mean, he's talking
and talking. Well, he's in the little bay thing.
He's talking. Well, I'm done. But I'm like, do
I flush? Will I interrupt the conversation? This
could be really awkward. So I finally just –
I went ahead and flushed. And then I walked over
and I washed my hands. He's still talking. Now
I'm done. And he's still talking. So I'm just
now standing in the doorway of the bathroom with
Max Lucado talking. I thought, this is my story
of how I met Max Lucado. It was in the men's
room with him talking for an embarrassingly long
time. And I still think about that. And the funny
thing about it is he was exactly the same. in
that bathroom as he is in the pulpit and as he
is over a cup of coffee or eating a steak together
at a restaurant. He's exactly the same. Yeah,
the consistency is what you look for. Yes. Mr.
Ziegler was, you know, when people ask me, tell
me about him. I said, if the dictionary ever
went pictorial, the word consistency would have
to have Mr. Ziegler's picture. Otherwise, don't
buy it. What you saw is what you... I said, but
I only knew him 20 years. I love that whole life
integration. Somebody who's consistent wherever
they are and their whole life is integrated.
And isn't that what... salvation is? Isn't that
what sanctification is, as we're on this journey
and we're growing and maturing and learning?
Hopefully over time, instead of being these scattered,
fragmented individuals that we were in our 18
and 20s, that over time we begin to integrate
the parts of who we are so that... Wherever you
see us, we're the same. That's the goal. I think
that's what Jesus modeled. But he was also, he
knew what to be where he was when it was needed.
So if he needed to turn over some tables and
fashion a whip of cords, he did. But if he needed
to kneel in the dirt with someone caught in adultery,
he did that too. It's beautiful. Yeah, in fact,
when you're bringing that up, the two illustrations
I do, which is, you know, when I teach, when
I do the messages at conferences and all, I always
bring a side that they've never considered. So
I said, you know, the two most surprising stories
in the Bible, both include our Lord, but I'm
just looking at the other character. One was
Lazarus, you know, he'd done the sick, he'd done
the blind, and also it was time to raise the
dead. So he tells Lazarus. Now, Lazarus already
knew Jesus, and he'd been dead three days. So
if we know our Bible to true, he's already in
heaven. Well, Jesus is still on earth, and Lazarus
gets a knock on his door and says, hey, you know
what? We have a recall. And he says, man, please,
those complaining sisters that heat the outdoor
bathroom, is there any way I can avoid that?
So I said, even though it's a great story we
tell, can you imagine that plight? We got a recall.
You got to go back. Oh, my gosh. And the second
one is the thief on the cross. Peter is still
on earth, so he's not guarding the gate. Christ
is still here. Pentecost hasn't happened, so
he arrives in heaven, and someone says, on whose
authority are you here? He said, the dude in
the middle said, today. So I do it tongue -in
-cheek for the youth to enjoy. I love it, brother.
I love it. I always say this, that if God doesn't
have a sense of humor, if we find out at the
end, I'm in big trouble. I'm in really big trouble.
So I had a moment today where I just felt the
playfulness of God in a moment. We had a staff
meeting. At our staff meeting, we always start
off with just, I wouldn't even call it a devotional.
I don't want to minimize it to that. It's really
a much deeper thing where I just share what's
going on in my heart and what God's been doing.
And I shared a little bit about just Brother
Lawrence and Frank Laubach. The book Practicing
His Presence was a real impactor on me as a young
Christian. And I was sharing that story. And
so Pastor Russ, he brings up. We're talking about
John Eldridge now. John Eldridge is doing some
really neat, deep work right now. Wild at heart.
Wild at heart. John's been a real, he doesn't
know it, but he's been a mentor to me as well.
I've got a lot of mentors they don't know. They
don't know who I am, but they've mentored me.
And big impact on both Russ and I. So Russ says,
I'm going to, on my phone, I'm going to play
this. exercise at the end of john's new book
in the in the and it's where he leads you into
a prayer of descent where you go into and you're
trying to trying to find that inner person and
and so we did it and i did i don't know that
i expected much other than just wow peaceful
moment right here in john pray and as he's praying
i literally in my mind's eye I see myself following
Jesus down a path. Oh, wow. And it's like, I
don't know if you've ever heard of Carlsbad Caverns,
Carlsbad, New Mexico. It's a fascinating place.
And there's these little walkways and paths through
these stalagmites and stalactites and beautiful
formations. It's stunning, but it's deep into
the hole in the ground cave. So I was in a very
scene like that. Jesus. opens the door and this
prayer of descents taking you deeper in and he
opens the door and i'm just seeing this in my
mind's eye like i'm watching a movie and he looks
at me he goes you coming and he smiles at me
it's that playful oh wow impish grin you coming
so i walk up to the door and then we get in one
of those little awkward moments that christians
do at door no you go no no you go no yeah we're
both saying it and we're both laughing and then
he then i i He lets me go first. And I walk in
and what I realized, it was my heart. It was
a descent into my heart. And when I walked in
and I knew before I got there, it's going to
be bigger on the inside than it is the outside.
And as soon as I stepped in, it's like I saw
galaxies. Like if you step out on a cold Texas
night and no, I mean, it is just brilliant skies.
And it was that. And I was immediately there
and just was. in awe of the vastness of it but
and then and then the prayer ended and we sort
of came out of that and and uh it was just the
playfulness of jesus and i just thought he was
smiling he was laughing that and that may be
just my view of him how i see him but i do find
him to be playful yeah and chesterton says that
he says that you know we know where jesus wept
but When you look up at the hope and the gleefulness
or the hopefulness or the playfulness of Jesus,
through all of the turmoil, we have to say that
he had to have some mirth to go through it. And
I'm known in India and globally, I have the moniker
of the laughing evangelist. Beautiful, beautiful.
That's a good thing to be known as. I had a very
serious thinker come up to me in India. He says,
I see where it says Jesus wept. I didn't see
where he says he laughed. I said, oh, that's
present continuous. He said, what do you mean?
I said, he's laughing at both of us right now.
I said, I can't believe I entrusted these two
yokels with the Great Commission. Of all the
problems in the world he's worried about. I would
have high -fived you right there at the moment.
Mr. Ziegler had a line about laughter, which
is why he used to use it. He says there's some
new scientific evidence that's come out that
if you have a tendency to laugh and you suppress
the laughter, it'll come back inside and spread
your hips. So let it out. Let it go or else you'll
pay for it later. He said it'd be expensive on
the wardrobe. I love that. Well, there's a scripture
that says that he was filled with joy more than
all of his brethren. You see that God laughed
over the nations, danced over the nations. I
mean, he laughed at the kings. There's too much
in there of levity and life. And I can't help
but believe that the word soteria would not encompass
the joy and laughter of life, one of the fruit
of the spirit. I love the joy. I can imagine,
you know, Christ, the encounter with Paul and
saying, man. I got to turn this guy around. No
kidding. And he's going to be my emissary to
the kings and the Gentiles. And then looking
at Peter saying, oh man, this guy is just like,
even the scripture says that after the resurrection,
the women got there first. So Peter was slow.
So he's like a slow, reluctant guy. I've always
wondered about that. The slow, reluctant guy
is going to be the one on whom he builds the
church. I said, there's hope for us. And then
Jesus was like, I can't reveal myself to you.
So Mary, get over here. You know, meets him at
the door, slams the door in his face and moves
on. But I love the fact that there is levity
in the scripture. Now, I do appreciate the way
that Dallas Jenkins and the guys of the chosen
have. played that, the plausibility of laughter
and joking. And I love that they've done that.
I think they're doing a lot right now to reveal
a side of Christianity and a side of Jesus through
Jonathan Rumi playing Jesus. The David? Yes.
Oh, last night I'm like, is it out yet? Is the
new one out? I'm caught up. So I was at the NRB
a week and a half or two weeks ago when they
showed it up there. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, it's
quite brilliantly done. It is powerful. Because
that's the side of David we don't get to hear.
And so I had to go back and read some of this
thing, the Torah, the exegesis and all that.
About his mother. You know, I didn't know that
he was, you know. Those are real deal goose pimples
right there. I mean, I've got chill bumps thinking
about it because as we were watching, I told
her, she said, did you know that? I'm going,
actually, no, I feel bad. I got out first Samuel.
I started tracking along. I'm like. I did not
see that. There's a lot of hidden gems in there
that they mined out. They've done a brilliant
job with it. So really appreciative of what Dallas
has done. We got to go visit on the set during
the second season. So Annette and I were on set
that day and got to have lunch with the cast
and hang out with them. And it was such a good
time. But it was also... I got to see behind
the scenes and how much work goes into this production.
I had no idea the work that goes into that. Yeah,
we were actually, our team in Dallas produced
a movie called The Least of These, which is also
on Amazon. But Stephen Baldwin was, it was based
on the life of a missionary by the name of Graham
Staines, who was martyred in India. And that
was as recent as 1999. An Australian missionary
was burnt alive with his two boys, Philip and
Timothy. And so I was preaching in India and
I got a chance. Someone came up to me and said,
I have this script. And we won a bunch of ICBM
awards and all that. Beautiful. So I brought
it back. And my friend, Victor Abraham in Dallas,
bankrolled the whole thing. It was about a $5
million production. And so we did it on set in
India. It's huge. Nice. I'll watch it. It's called
The Least of These, The Graham Stain Story. The
Graham. Yeah. So Gladys, the beauty of that story
is after she realized that her husband and...
two boys were burnt alive at the same time. And
she was just left with her daughter, Esther.
And the government officials came and said, you
have to be strong for Esther. Her next words
were, whoever did this, we will forgive them.
Wow. And the government of India saw that as
horrid as it was, they gave her one of India's
highest honors saying, the darkest day in India
was given light by this woman's forgiveness.
And when her husband's funeral was taking place,
there's a YouTube clip of that. She's sitting
with her daughter following the, Following the
casket. Oh, my goodness. And the song that plays
is Because He Lives, We Confess Tomorrow. Wow.
That is... Beautiful. Yeah. Only Jesus. Yeah.
So I've written a Bible study on that and along
with the screenwriter that we've done apologetics
on what is truth and all that. So, but yeah,
I'll show you, I'll share some of that with you
later. I'd love to see, I'd love to see that.
I'd like to also hear a little bit about how
you got connected with Rick Green and Kara and
the green team, I call them and how you ended
up helping them at the Patriot Academy. So that,
yeah, so we, everything is. It's continuous,
you know, as they say, coincidence is God's way
of remaining anonymous. So Rick came to Mr. Ziegler's
office while I was working there. I was a telemarketer
and traveling with Mr. Ziegler. Rick's dad had
used Mr. Ziegler in Arkansas for some sales meetings
before Mr. Ziegler really hit it big. So he knew
Richard Green, the senior. And so Rick used that
leverage and came to the office. had a book.
At that time, Rick will also admit he was Tony
Robbins with a big influence on his life. He
told me that. Jumping all over the place. Fundamental
difference between Zig Ziglar and Tony Robbins
was Tony Robbins was NLP mind control and Ziglar
was free will. There you go. So I knew teams
on both sides. So one day Rick shows up and Mr.
Ziglar introduces me to him. He says, this is
a young man and I've known his father, but I
want you guys to be friends. At that time, Rick
was writing a book. And at the same time, I was
going through a turmoil because we had a manager
at the Ziglo Corporation who was creating some
hassle for me. And 20 people already resigned
the previous day because they didn't like this
manager. So I also turned in my resignation because
I had met Rick and Rick said, why don't you come
work for me? He had started a small company.
But giving me a big title. I was a telemarketer.
He was going to make me VP of that typical mindset.
So I turned into my resignation. Mr. Ziegler
called me to his house and I said, well, I'm
going to go work for a green. I can't work for
this company anymore. I don't like this guy.
He said, well, I'm rejecting your resignation
letter. Don't worry about the other guy. He'll
be gone in the morning. Now come to my office
in the morning and I have something to say to
Rick too. So we went to the office and I'm, this
is a story. This is true. So I'm in Mr. Ziegler's
office and we dialed Rick Green. Rick answers.
He says, Rick, this is your old buddy. He's like,
oh, Mr. Ziegler. He says, now, Rick, you've submitted
a manuscript to me that you wanted me to endorse.
He says, I'm going to tell you two things you're
not going to like. One is I'm not endorsing your
book. You're not ready for it. Second, you can't
have Krish. He's not ready for you. Give him
to me for 10 more years. Go work on your manuscript
for a couple of years. Mature a little bit. I'll
endorse it a little later. And one thing I promise
you, you both will be lifelong friends. So I
stayed back with Mr. Ziegler. Rick came back
with the book later. Mr. Ziegler endorsed it.
And then when Rick, we stayed friends. And then
I was there the night Rick proposed to Kara.
I was the speaker for his event the night Rick
proposed to Kara. And I officiated the wedding
of Frey. Wow. So we go way back. You do, you
do. So when he started Patriot Academy, I used
to give whatever time I could, go wherever. Anytime
he started a new academy, he would invite me
as clergy to do the charge. But I taught at all
his academies and I was rated fairly high because
I brought the apologetics and the worldview.
And so I've been part of Patriot Academy speaking
since the third one, I think. Wow. So I've done
it a long time. Wonderful. About six years ago,
he said, you know, my goal is to start a campus
wherever God allows us. And I want you to at
that point, you'll be ready because this is I'm
63. I'm a little about 10 years older than him.
So he says, will you join me at that season?
So that was always the design that we would do
something together to fulfill Mr. Ziegler's legacy.
Beautiful. Love that. But this was sped up because
the Texas Capitol reconstruction, we had to bring
Tara suddenly in 11 months had to put that thing
up. It was wild. So he reached out to me last
year and said, well, the timetable has changed.
We're going to start an academy next year and
I need you to come down as the dean. My apprehension
was my wife has some medical conditions. All
her doctors are in Dallas and all. But the first
time she came here, she fell in love with it
more than I did. And she started convincing me,
this is what God wants us to do. I want you to
be around these kids. On a personal story, we've
had a little grief with our own son who became
a casualty of the culture. He lives in Boston.
Yeah, I understand. And God gave me 12 young
interns to pour into who hang on our every word.
So it was almost like... Everything has come
full circle. Wow. But, you know, I travel around
and people say, what's so great about Texas?
And I jokingly say, you know, it's the simplest
state to live in. If it's moving, we tend to
hug it. If it's not, we sell it. If it argues,
we shoot it. It's the easiest way to make a decision.
We don't call 911, that's for sure. I love that.
So in Texas, concealed carry is a skunk. And
open carry is a porcupine. That's true, brother.
It's true. But, yeah, so we've been friends.
I've known the kids, you know. So when I bully
the kids, they come to me and say, Mr. Dunham,
you said this. I said, first thing, remember,
I knew you before you were born. So stop it.
So Trey is the only one who has an affection
to me that is different because I was the firstborn
and I had his wedding and all that. All the kids
have pretty much grown up around me, and it's
such a joy to be on the campus and do life with
them, meet their new life partners and explore
into them. It's happening fast. I've only known
Rick three years, and already, I mean, a lot
of life has happened in the last three years
with the campus. See, I live two miles past the
campus. I drive by it every day. So I see what's
happening. I see, oh, there's eight more tiny
homes. Oh, there's another ten. I mean, I've
watched all that go up. So I met Rick three years
ago at a Lincoln Reagan dinner. Oh, wow. It was
the first one they had here in Fredericksburg
in Gillespie County. And he was one of the featured
speakers. And just like when I see somebody I
want to be around, I go be around them. So I
was sitting there going. I leaned over to Annette
and I said, I don't know who this guy is, but
he's got something I like. His fire, his positivity,
his energy. I said. I said, I need that guy in
my life. And we met that night. Yeah, so I mean,
he does the 300 words a minute with Gus up to
600. And he's got so much to say, and he wants
to say it all at the same time. And I like to
take a little breath every once in a while. So
we were speaking at an event together. And they
said, do you have any? So they asked him for
his PowerPoint of like 84 slides. They asked
me, do you have any PowerPoint? I said, no. They
said, you don't? I said, no, I just make my point
with power. So we've been, you know, of course,
he's being younger than me, but we've been brothers
for a long time. And it's just, you know, and
now I look back and I see the genius of a man
who says, you can't have him. Give him to me
for 10 more years and you'll be lifelong friends.
It's amazing. Don't publish this book. You'll
be ashamed of it. Work on it for three more years
and you'll be proud. He told me that story about
getting dissed on that book. He said that was
a hard pill to swallow. He goes, he was absolutely
right. Yeah. And he, the first time I met Rick,
you know, he had the whole Tony Robbins and whole
headphones before it was cool. And he's jumping
up on stage and he looked at me and he says,
He says, so are you into Tony Robbins? I said,
no, I grew up in India. You walk on fire there
because you're bored. It's like, you don't do
it to bust through anything. You do it to con
people. It's like, you know, it's like breaking
a board to have a, why? You know, I said, I can
understand the concept of breaking through and
breaking a barrier. And I've done it. I've broken
the arrows and done all that stuff. But I said,
at the end of the day, I like Mr. Ziegler. He's
just cool, calm, you know. A big shot is just
a small shot who kept on shooting. That's all.
Oh, brother. So, anyhow, that's the genesis of
both stories. Oh, it's beautiful. My word for
the year, every year I do a word. And sometimes
I get something fresh, sometimes I don't. This
year, I got the word convergence. This is a season
where things are converging, coming together.
And just the story you just told me, I see, we
were talking about the connectivity. In fact,
on our staff meeting, we were talking about how
everything is interconnected. This had to happen
to get you where you are, even the bad stuff,
even the ugly, weird stuff. Had to happen because
it got you where you are now. So don't disdain.
Don't live with regret. Just say, okay, that
needed to happen because it positioned me. And
God is... positioning people i'm just blown away
here and honestly when i came to fredericksburg
nine years ago i thought i was coming here to
quietly retire i'm just going i'm gonna i'm going
to small sleepy town we're just gonna relax i
and i remember the guy hired me said do you have
one more in you and i said i do i do yeah i do
i felt like i do and uh he didn't know what he
was saying and i didn't know what i was answering
but but what what happened when When Max gave
the reins to the church, gave us this church,
he looked at me, he said, we're holding you back.
I'm holding you back, Jimmy. And I said, man,
no. I said, no, no, coach. And he goes, no, I
mean it. He said, you're an extension of a city
church in a country town. He said, it'll always
be limited. The last thing they need is me over
there preaching and you hitting play on a machine.
They need a pastor. And so that's how that all
came about. But I love the wisdom of that. But
all those things had to happen to get us where
we are today. So now here we are. 2019, we became
the bridge. Six months later, COVID hit. That
was fun. Okay, so we had to think quick and make
pivot and do all kinds of things. We figured
it out pretty quickly. But yet God has been faithful
through the whole journey. Things had to happen.
I look back on COVID. First of all, it woke up
a lot of people. So let's talk about it just
in that arena a little bit. Tell me about your
background and your heart for America and why
that has become a pivotal part of your life.
Well, it's ironic that I was, you know, as a
kid, my dad worked for an American company, like
I said. we were given quarters where all the
whites lived so we lived in a secluded fairly
american environment so sunday evenings they
would only bring american movies to cater to
the expat so i grew up watching john wayne movies
and all of that other stuff so was a big connoisseur
of the west and as one day i told my dad when
i was about seven or eight i don't remember when
i said pop um he said what's your goals i said
i'm gonna go to america he said what you do i
said i don't know i'll be a truck driver there
I want to live in the Wild West, kind of, jokingly.
My dad took it seriously because he knew he said
that you always had persistence. My dad was always
convinced that I would do something different.
So academics was kind of quasi -okay, not very
bright, all that stuff. But my dad, when I was
about eight, said, son, I want you to start reading
American history. I said, why? He said, one day
you'll get there. And I don't want you to be
a second -class citizen to anybody. So I learned
American history while I was in India, carrying
European history and Indian history as part of
course curriculum. So I remember when I went
through my citizenship test, an African -American
lady looked at me and said, oh, you know, on
your test, you can expect questions like Emancipation
Proclamation. What happened? When was the Emancipation
Proclamation? And I didn't think of when. I was
going to give her the verbal dump of Abraham
Lincoln and the whole nine years. She says, oh,
no, honey, in America, it's multiple choice.
And I knew I was going to make it. When I came
here, I realized how little people had as respect.
In India, when you go through Indian history,
you're taught pride. When you go to French history,
you're taught pride. America is the only country
you can come from anywhere in the world and claim
identity. You can go from here and be French
or German or Indian. You're always going to be
an expat. But I thought of the ingratitude that
the folks had. And I came at the tail end of
Reagan, and I was already seeing that lackadaisical
attitude. It was quite different from the...
the John Wayne America, you know, the quite different
from, but one thing I realized very quickly that
gratitude becomes the healthiest of all human
emotions. Most of these people are miserable
because they don't have gratitude for what they
have. I agree. And on a napkin, I remember very
early, I wrote, I will always have something
up to look to. I will always have something to
lean on. And I always want to be proud of where
I stand. It's beautiful. And I started studying
America. So my first book was called The American
Dream from an Indian Heart. Wow. And the premise
of the book was, if you can't make it in this
country, don't pack. You ain't going to make
it anywhere else. Wow. And that suddenly people
started waking up to me and saying, how do you
know so much? I said, it's not a question of
knowing so much. It's a question of the depth.
So when I read Dr. King's speech, when I first
came to America as a young immigrant thinking,
okay, that's what different people have to do.
Because Dr. King talked about character. Very
quickly, I realized as I speak to communities
all over the country, I said, most of you hung
on to the first verse of his speech and stayed
there. And it liberated a group of people. But
none of you have ever looked at the second where
he says, I have a dream that every little black
boy and every little black girl in the great
state of Alabama, where the governor's lips drip
with nullification and interposition. I said,
do you realize that came true? And the people
in those communities who look at me say, what
do you mean? I said, do you realize there was
a four -year period in American history where
a black girl from Alabama and a white boy from
Texas had their picture in every embassy around
the world, George Bush and Condoleezza Rice.
Wow. So I said, for me, character is the pride
in the mundane. I said, when Dr. King was talking
about character, I think the divinity in him
said that everybody will be invited to the banquet,
but only character will keep you there. Wow.
And that's what I, so as I started teaching,
this community started inviting me saying, Wait
a minute, all we had was the rage that came with
that, but you're talking about possibility in
this. And suddenly Mr. Ziegler said, wait a minute,
son, you're discovering things that we have glossed
over. You may be the last great salesman we have
for America. So he started introducing me as
Twilight. He said, this is my legacy. He ain't
black or white. He's my twilight. So my last
book was called Twilight, How One Man's Unity
Universe Changed My Universe, Acts 1726. Wow.
So it's a dedication to Mr. Ziegler. Brother,
that is beautiful. And yeah, so that's the...
But I love it. It took somebody with a different
worldview to come and see things from a different
perspective, a different angle. Because growing
up here, there's a sense of privilege and entitlement
that's just baked in. You just expect things
to work. You expect things to be the same relatively
your whole life. Yeah, when people ask me what
motivates you, I said hot water. Now, we had
running water. If you needed it, you ran and
got it. But that's not reasonably far from the
truth. My mother was a child bride. Father was
studying under a streetlight. But I tell these
people, I have used Mr. Ziegler's philosophy
on that man, my father, who studied under a streetlight.
One day my dad came to me, 75. He's now retired.
He's now lamenting that he's helped everybody.
He said, son, is there hope for me? And I remember
making a statement to my father in front of a
group of 300. I said, pop, when your obligations
to others finish, your obligations to your dreams
remain because God created you uniquely for a
purpose. And at the age of 75, we enrolled my
father back in the university using his degree
from 1955. At the age of 84, my father got his
PhD. At the age of 90 now, he's in a retirement
home. He just submitted a thesis, postdoctoral
research on his own thesis. He dragged my mom
back through college. And at the age of 75, my
mom got her master's shortly before she passed.
Both of them got their advanced degrees at the
same convocation. And in their acceptance speech,
they said, Our son is our hero. He made us do
this. Love that. So I met a guy. We were having
our tile work done in our house, and his name
was Laszlo. Very different. He had a very thick
accent, European, Eastern Bloc type accent. And
I asked him where he's from. He said, actually,
I'm Polish. I said, you have a beautiful accent,
brother. I love your accent. And we were talking,
and the border issue was really hot. This had
been about two years ago. Border issue was really.
And I asked him a question. I said, how long
have you been in the States? He told me. And
he owns his own company, his tile company, construction
company. And I said, tell me, what? give me your
opinion on what's happening at the border and
he was he got animated he got fired up he said
they're criminals yeah he said their first act
of coming into america is to break the law he
said i did it the right way i jumped through
all the hoops i learned the history he said now
i value what i have he said that's the difference
and poland is the only country in western europe
that has no problems because they don't allow
anybody in in fact the polish guy The prime minister
just said, we're not going to let anybody in
who wants to change our culture. Hungary did
the same thing. The two countries that are being
vilified. I mean, I teach world history in a
different way. I've been to Poland. I visited
Auschwitz. I asked the Polish people. They said,
never again. We're never again. The fortification
of Warsaw is designed so a person like Hitler
could not walk over and designate a city. They'll
never forget. You have to learn. So we've got
a break. I love the preamble you do where you
do the State of the Union before you give a message.
And it's very important. For the last four years
during the debacle, I used to tell people, I
said, stop saying God bless America. And they
would look at me. I said, get on your knees and
say, God save America. He already blessed it
and you screwed it up. Come on, brother. Make
America godly again. I've not been able to shake
this. First of all, I've always believed that
America is not a good idea that God blessed.
America is a God idea that we get the privilege
of stewarding. We have to steward what we have.
So there's the responsibility piece for me. The
second part is that America doesn't have a political
problem. We have a spiritual problem. And that
to me is... The only thing that can change the
human heart is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing
else. Nobody is clever enough, smart enough.
If anybody can talk you into something, somebody
else can talk you out of it. So we know it's
got to be a true transformation. And that is
the hope for America. I think we have a window.
We've been given a window. It seems that we've
been given sort of a green light. It seems like.
It feels like we've got a hall pass to actually
go do something and move some things. I just
saw where on Sunday I announced that. Twelve
states in America are putting forth bills to
get the Ten Commandments back in classrooms.
Well, as of today, it's 15 states. So we're seeing
a movement. There's a movement happening right
now. And those are good things. They speak to
a broader issue, and that is that there are people
saying we've got to get back to where we started.
We've got to go back to be in the future, back
to the future kind of thing. We've got to guarantee
our future. We've got to go back to where this
started. That's why I have such a love affair
with the monument to the forefathers in Plymouth.
Have you ever been there? I haven't, but, I mean,
of course, we carry one at the PA. I've got them
everywhere. Here's the other one that you would
really like. It's a lesser -known thing, but
opposite the UN is a park, and it's called the
Isaiah Wall. So later on, Google it. There's
a scripture about the plowshares being dismantled
and all of that other stuff. Right, yes. But
across the UN, there is actually a biblical scripture
on what is called the Isaiah Wall, and nobody
talks about it. Isn't that wild? In fact, in
Scotland, when religion was going away, people
said maybe because we have eradicated completely
from the civic and we've tried to separate church
and state. We maybe, if we build our civic centers
next to churches, some of the morality will rub
off. They were still clinging to it in some way.
In some way, there was a reaching. You know,
when I study world, because I teach apologetics
and I teach world history through the lens of
that narrative. So one of the books that I encourage
everybody who's watching this and who, you know,
who was part of your extended family, everybody
needs to read the New England Primer. It's a
book that now David Barton's Wall Builders publishes.
And it's now in the refined English, so the words
are not transposed. But the New England Primer,
I think Benjamin Harrison's first published in
1677. Wow. And it had A in a Bible verse, B in
a Bible verse. And first grade people in that
one room schoolhouse were learning words like
abomination and, you know, polysyllabic words.
And I always tell people, what did the first
50 years of this country teach in one book in
the first grade? that produce the likes of Washington,
Madison, and Monroe, and Adams. And you tell
me if someone of that ilk in the last 50 years,
it's because we have polluted ourselves with
garbage. Absolutely. And it's a small little
book, and I keep a box of it in my house in Dallas.
And anybody who's not conservative or not Christian,
when they come to my house, I said, I don't have
much to give you, but I'll give you the gift.
Beautiful, beautiful. It's called the New England
Primer. And it's, I think, a must read because
we'll now understand the likes. of why Daniel
Webster at the age of 15 was able to go to Exeter
Academy. Brilliant. So, in fact, when the interns
I teach, I teach them the same thing. Love that.
I said, I'm your tutor, I'm your dean, but the
journey I've taken to get here from the rural
part of southern India is nothing less than miraculous.
There you go. I came to America with $9, Pastor,
in my pocket and a dream. And I remember the
first day I landed in UJFK Airport. Wow. Immigration.
There were only two lines. And two signs, 1986.
One said citizens, the other said others. My
wife was a citizen. Even though she became a
citizen in India, she went through others. She
said, honey, that's your line. She said, I'll
be waiting for you at baggage claim. Well, two
hours later, she came knocking because I was
still being, this was before the internet thing.
They were processing me, fingerprints. I came
with a medical clearance. I came with a police
clearance. I came with everything. But I'll never
forget what that immigration officer said to
Anila. I said, ma 'am, we're doing it the right
way. Give me 15 more minutes, and I'll finish
processing your husband, and he'll never have
to look over his shoulder again. Ah, beautiful.
Wow. Ten years later, in New York, I'm sitting
in Mayor Rudy Giuliani's seats watching a Yankee
game, The American Dreamer, come true. Brother.
We are truly blessed here. We are blessed. What
I love about you, and I love what I'm hearing,
and I'm getting it in spades, is you live a grateful
life. That's my and my wife's moniker. We live
a grateful life. No matter what happens, in our
own spiritual and life journey, we've lost things.
We've lost everything a couple of times. And
you know what? We survived just fine. You know
what? We found out we didn't need all that stuff.
And we realized... After you've lost something
and God has restored, you realize you have nothing
to fear ever again. And you can just live grateful.
Every day I get up, I say I hit the lottery this
morning. I woke up. I get to do this. I got another
day to do this, to live this life. And so I hear
that spirit off of you. It's why I'm drawn to
you. It's why I'm drawn to Rick. I'm drawn to
people who have that spirit on them. Yeah, that
old adage was, you know, if you're ever having
a bad day, think of the garbage collector with
a weak stomach. Or if you're ever having a bad
day, try missing one. Either one will wake you
up pretty quick to the gratitude of life. I love
it, brother. Last thing before we go, I just
want to hear, what would you say to someone who's
watching this today? I mean, what is it that's...
that always percolates out of you when you don't
even mean to. It's just there, your core value,
your core heart. Yeah, and it's an amalgamation
of different things, but it's one of the quotes
that's attributed to me that if you went online,
typed in my name in whichever way, again, I'm
not selling anything, but years ago I wrote this
and I still live by it. Plan with attitude. That
is will. Prepare with aptitude. That is skill.
Participate with servitude. That is humility.
Receive with gratitude. That is honor. And that
will separate you from the multitudes. Plan with
attitude. Prepare with aptitude. Participate
with servitude. Receive with gratitude. And that
will separate you from the multitudes. I love
that. If you want to go from a 97 % comfort zone
thinker to a 3 % effective zone thinker, just
remember this. Yesterday ended with last night.
Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
Happy birthday to you. Brother, so let's make
the rest of our life the best of our life. Amen.
We do it. And I stole something from your sermon
yesterday, which is going to be my devotion title
next week. Now that I'm here, I can admit it.
But you use the words in a different context,
but they asked me what my devotion is going to
be next Monday. I'm doing someone's Zoom devotion.
I said, turning your, moving from how to well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a big revelation for
me because I was always that kid who wanted to
know. Don't tell me the time. I want to know
how that watch works. I mean, I was always backwards
looking. I'm fascinated by moving parts and systems
and systemic things. And so the Lord had to grow
me down to grow me up. He had to grow me like
a child and begin to just be playful and go,
wow. Yeah, and the global perspective changes.
You know, I've traveled to many countries. I've
preached in countries where. The question is
not a serious question on our exegesis. This
question is not on denominationalism or prosperity.
When a pastor holds your hand and says, Pastor,
what would you tell a congregation when your
church was burnt last week and you're meeting
under a tree? How do I give them hope? And the
answer is, you know, you have to dig deep for
that because you have to hold their hands. And
we are so quick to give answers because that
is our way of thinking. We want to fix stuff.
That's the one thing I learned in grief is that
I tell even my students here, I say, don't look
at someone across the table trying to make a
solution possible. Stand next to them side by
side. Otherwise, John 3 .16 is a lie. Jesus Christ,
our Lord and Savior, died for those who don't
know him. So the greatest and the weakest, stand
next to them and let the Jesus in you find the
Jesus in them. Just leak out what you're full
of and let him lead the way. There's an old saying
about that. Mr. Ziegler used to use this analogy
about how Christians used to live, and it'll
be a tongue -in -cheek funny one. But he said
the mama skunk and the baby skunk were walking
next to the paper mill, and if any of you have
lived there, you know that pungent odor that
comes from there that stinks up the environment.
And the baby skunk tells the mama skunk, Mama,
what's that stink? And the mama skunk says, I
don't know what it is, but we got to go get some.
I said, ooze the sweet aroma of Jesus. So people
say, we got to get some. I do know what a paper
mill smells like, by the way. I figured you would
because of that. I actually do. When you said
that, I went, oh, I know exactly what he's talking
about. Anyhow, so that, yeah, we just, I tell
people, you know, one day at a time, one breath
at a time. My friend Victor Abraham reminds me,
he says, laughter is the best medicine, but if
you find yourself laughing for no reason, you
need medicine. Come on, brother. Come on. So
I just, I try to chuckle my way. I've been in
very hostile situations sharing the gospel, Middle
Eastern country. So I've always used holy humor
to cope. Come on, brother. You have to. Yeah.
So, but you know, someday as we... I love the
friendship. I love the fact that we get to worship
with you and make this our home church as we
start moving to a more permanent basis. And so
thank you for what you do. You lift our hearts
on Sunday. And you guys just... I've been very
welcoming of us, and that's truly, you know.
Wherever Manila and I have gone, we've been the
only ones that look like us. Your wife is a delight,
brother. You out -punted your coverage. Yeah,
that's a— I'm serious. You married her. She's
sharp. As the old saying goes, I cannot respect
a man who does not over -marry. That's right.
Amen, brother. Most people aim low and hit. I
aimed high and missed and got a whole bunch of
stuff I didn't agree on. Brother, I know because
I did the same thing. I tell people, as Adrian
Rogers would say, he says, if she ever leaves
me, I'm going with her. Brother, you're a delight.
And thank you for being with us today. My joy.
This will not be the last time. I hope. I'd love
to have you back. I love the style. The conversational
style just allows. And I think the people watching
will be enriched because somebody out there needs
that. It's okay. It is. The good guys and good
gals really do win. I call it Igbok. It's going
to be okay. I saw that on a coffee mug in Franklin,
Tennessee. I stole that. I'm not buying that
coffee mug, but I'm taking that saying. Igbok,
it's going to be okay. And it is going to be
okay. You know, one of the things Lucado said,
which was very – he says, you know, we all –
I think it was in six hours one Friday, and I'm
paraphrasing. But we all think time is on our
side. When people say, why should I act now?
I love how Lucado put it. He said, did Mary know
that 24 hours later she would be cradling the
body of her son? Did John know that 24 hours
later he'd be anointing the body of his slain
hero? But most importantly, did Pilate know that
24 hours later he would be forever credited with
being the architect of the Messiah's death? When
I put those three in context, I realized one
was a mother who gave birth to him. One was the
one who is... vilified for having crucified him.
And the other was the one who devoted himself
and then emulated him in the Gospels. And all
three of them did not know what was going to
happen 24 hours later. And none of us do, but
we have to. One of the poems, if you get a chance,
read a poem called La Pieta. La Pieta, P -I -E
-T -A. It was written by Admiral Jeremiah Denton,
who was the highest ranking officer in Vietnam,
captive in Vietnam. Of course, known for the
fact that he blinked through Morse code. They
held him for propaganda, but he blinked through
Morse code. And he became a senator from Alabama.
But if you get a chance to read a really good
book, it's a book called When Hell Was in Session.
And this poem, La Pieta, is in there. And I won't
break it, but I've memorized it for that reason.
because it ends with when all is lost, all is
actually won. Wow. Wow. That's the crucifixion.
That's it, brother. When all was lost, all was
won. All was won. And heaven and hell got put
on notice. Thank you, brother. My joy. I so appreciate
it. My joy. We'll land a plane with this. First
of all, for all of our listeners and our watchers,
you're going to hear this audio or you'll see
it on video. And we want to say thank you. Thank
you for being here with us today and joining
us in this conversation about life, about God,
the world and other things. And so appreciate,
so appreciate, appreciate being with us today.
Listen, go to our website, livingupinadownworld
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want to say that we love you and our heart for
you is to live up in a down world. amazing day
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