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This is the real estate shop where each episode will bring you a top industry

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expert to share their current programs or projects that are making an impact in

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our communities today.

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Be sure to check us out on Spotify and Apple podcasts.

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In this episode of the developers, we had the privilege of tag team at

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Ernst Valley, co-manager of SAA EBI based out of Baltimore and Adrian

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Washington from neighborhood development corporation based in Washington, DC.

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Let's join in.

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Morning everyone.

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So, you know, we have an opportunity here to talk to two distinguished

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developers, Adrian Washington and Ernst Valley.

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I would love to just understand how did you guys get into the business and how

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did you develop your firms?

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Thanks.

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I'll tell you my story.

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And it's really, I think it's probably an unconventional path.

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I went, you know, unlike Ernst, I went to undergrad.

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I got out, I worked in corporate America.

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I got my MBA.

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I worked in management consulting.

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And I had absolutely zero, I wouldn't say zero interest in real estate, but you

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know, no professional relationship to it.

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And so I'd say that's by the time I was 30.

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I mean, I really, you know, I had no idea I'd be end up where I am today.

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And it really came to real estate as almost like a, by a hobby.

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I had bought an old brownstone in Washington, DC and fell in love with the

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process of, of, of neighborhood change of the physical aspect of taking care of

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the physical aspect of taking like an asset and taking it from something that

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was not useful to something that was beautiful and functional and, and created,

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you know, value, both neighborhood value and economic value.

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And I was in consulting.

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I'm like, I hated that.

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I was like, you know, what am I going to do?

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And I was like, I would, you know, be, you know, going flying, you know, out,

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you know, out of town and coming back at like seven at night, be up at

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midnight, sanding floors and things like that.

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And so I was like, this is what I want to do.

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This was my passion.

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And so I really ended up just turning a hobby, working on my own house

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into a career that's, you know, lasted, you know, for decades now.

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Wow.

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So how did you all build or develop the teams and also maybe overcome some of

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those initial challenges by having to post your own guarantees?

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How were you able to overcome those early challenges?

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I'll start with your second question.

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I'm still posting personal guarantees.

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I don't know if someone knows how to get over that obstacle.

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It's funny.

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I was just literally, I was just, uh, I had negotiated a loan and I got the

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term sheet like, you know, a couple of weeks ago and like, there was no

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personal guarantee on it and I was like, yes, this is great, you know?

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And I was really happy and I signed and got off and then the loan officer came

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back like literally like yesterday in the email and said, Oh, I've got the,

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well, you know, I've got one little thing.

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We need a personal guarantee.

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Can I get your personal financial statement?

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So, uh, I have not gotten over that.

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I love to hear stories of people.

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I mean, not every loan I do is personal guaranteed, but, uh, almost all of them are.

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So, um, I love to hear stories of people who have overcome that.

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I mean, in terms of, in terms of putting together a team, I think that real

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estate development is, is not kind of, at least in my experience, kind of like a

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very kind of, you know, organized business progression where you can project,

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you know, like, you know, this year, my sales are going to be X and then next

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year they're going to be 1.5 X.

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You can kind of forecast out.

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It's very episodic.

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It's very entrepreneurial.

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So typically what I find is that developers, you know, they're working on projects.

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They get very busy.

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They get more or less confident depending on the environment and their portfolios.

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And they get to a point, they try to keep things lean, but you get to a point where,

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you know, either you, you say, we just can't do it.

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We're just bursting at the seams, or you get to the point where, you know, I see

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opportunity, you know, I want to go into this new market or there's this new

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product type and need this expertise.

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And then you make that, you know, move.

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And what I've tried to do over the years is, you know, not be so reactionary is

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to start kind of looking for talent, like way before you need it.

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And so, you know, right now we kind of constantly kind of keep job postings

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open and people will respond and they'll say, you know, actual job was filled,

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but, you know, you have an interesting resume.

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Let me talk to you or, you know, you'll do events and that's been tough during

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the COVID years, but I mean, you know, prior to that and hopefully going forward.

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Now, you know, you go to events, you meet people and you just take

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little notes to yourself.

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You say, oh, this, you know, this person, you know, it seems kind of interesting

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of a background, you know, that, that me keep an eye on them.

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Let me like, maybe do a coffee with them.

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And even if you don't sort of need that hiring person right now, you know, you

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never know someone could leave, you know, someone's moving out of town.

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You need to fill that position.

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Or like I said, you've got an opportunity, maybe you land a deal and you need

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expertise in like new markets, tax credits.

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You're like, oh, you know, well, Lisa, I remember talking to her a couple

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of years ago, you know, does Newark's tax credits, you know, let me check them out.

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So you really got to just be, you know, opportunistic, flexible, and, and

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you need to look ahead.

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Yeah, I'm taking notes actually.

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It's, it's, it's interesting because we tend to want to stay lean rather than.

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Be bursting at the seams because you can't really get hurt when you're

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lean, right?

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And you could get hurt if you're bursting at the seams, because just

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watching other people that have gone and they, you know, you don't really need

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a hundred people to have a development company, five to 10, 15, really great

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people, but then I also agree you have to stay ahead because then a big project

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comes and you don't want to be scrambling for that big project.

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But we, we tend to stay lean and, and, you know, it does make sense to, um,

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constantly look out for talent.

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And on the personal guarantee front, the best we've been able to do is get down

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to like 25% of their outstanding loan.

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We would personally guarantee.

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And that's for like a fully stabilized product.

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And until you get there, uh, you're on the hook for, for it.

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And so I don't know any other way.

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And so you have to have liquidity and you have to have a balance sheet.

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Uh, that's the biggest thing about, uh, development before, um, you can kind

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of scale, you need to get to a point where you have that balance sheet.

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And, you know, you also need equity as opposed to debt, because equity can

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be added to your, your balance sheet, essentially.

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And I don't know how many people will have that conversation that, you know,

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pretty much say, look, you gotta go get a joint venture partner, cause you

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don't have the liquidity and you don't have the balance sheet.

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You know, guess what?

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You're just not going to get it done, but, um, that's just folks trying

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to break into the business.

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It's not easy.

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So you all been in business for a while.

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What projects have you done?

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And do you have any particular ones that are your favorites?

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Well, I'll start.

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I mean, we've done, we were just counting all the day, we've done 47 projects.

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So that that's quite a bit.

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And, uh, you know, it's, when you talk about what your favorites, it's

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kind of like your children, you know, not that I have 47.

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47 children, but, you know, it's like you, they're all, you know,

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hopefully projects that you, there's something in me like, and that, you

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know, you may like one for, you know, more reasons than another, but that,

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you know, hopefully you've chosen your projects well and, you know, you

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look back and you're very happy.

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Cause I think that's really what drives people be developers is that sense of

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creation of looking back and, uh, saying, you know, I did that.

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Like I'm sitting here in my office, which is a building that we did.

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I'm looking across the street and another building we did.

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And, you know, those are just senses of accomplishments that you don't

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get in a lot of other fields.

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And so I like that.

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I mean, I would say in terms of favorites, like I said, there's none that are

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favorites, but there are certain ones that were kind of milestones for me.

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I mean, I remember kind of the first.

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Like double digit condo project we did on a project at Chapin street.

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I remember like looking at the building across the street, which was at the

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time, the largest condo building we did and an old industrial warehouse.

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And so our first kind of like real loft style type of thing.

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I remember like the first.

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For the housing project that we did.

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So I think there are kind of like milestones along the way, but I think

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every project I look at, at something, you know, like one had great design.

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One had a really great, you know, creative kind of capital stack.

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Another was kind of, you know, I really liked the design, you know, the

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units were really laid out.

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Another was, you know, maybe the commercial tenant that we brought in

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was somebody really unique and we helped them build their dreams.

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So you find sort of different elements of every project that is something that

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you, you know, that hopefully you're happy about.

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I would agree.

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The first are always the best, you know, like my first row house.

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I remember every detail about that project, the first multifamily, you know.

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So the first are the ones that you remember.

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And then you really try to create for yourself, you know, a value system.

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Like when I develop, these are the things that I'm going to do.

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And these are the things that we value in our buildings.

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And, you know, we really focus on the people and we really focus on urban

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areas and neighborhoods that have, you know, typically been ignored and not

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invested in.

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And we find that racism has a lot to do with a neighborhood that doesn't get

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investment.

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It's because, you know, the market doesn't like who lives there, not

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necessarily because the project itself doesn't work.

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We were able to do a project behind Penn Station in Baltimore City.

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And so think about Penn Station in like New York or Penn Station anywhere, you

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would want that piece of property.

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But in Baltimore, you know, we were rookie developers, but we got this

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project because we valued the people that was in that community.

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And, you know, and we're finding that all over the place.

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We're doing a project in Richmond, California, and they, and it's right

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next to Amtrak and the BART train in the Bay Area.

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And no one values it as much.

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And it's because of the people.

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And so, you know, I like the projects, but I like what they stand for, the

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fact that we're trying not to gentrify people of color out of these really

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valuable communities.

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And when you talk about your pipeline, aren't you just mention a project in

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Baltimore City and another one in California?

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How do you choose what markets are going to go into and how do you

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present opportunity?

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How do you look at it?

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We're not really a place-based developer.

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So we don't say we're only DC and I've got friends that only develop in DC.

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And now they're trying to branch out in other places.

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We go to different markets because I, you know, I truly believe that you have

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to be in different markets because development is such a, you know, you can

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get held up for six years, 10 years on certain projects.

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And so if you're not in different markets that don't have the same

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politics as the other market, you're going to find it very hard to get

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into the same market, you're going to find it very hard to have longevity.

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Right.

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And like, if, if you get the wrong administration in the market that you

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say is your market, well, that's four or five years that you're not developing

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anything.

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But the chances of not having the wrong administration of continuing to get

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your projects done in multiple markets.

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So that's one reason we're in different markets.

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The other reason is because we want to be in urban markets and we want to kind

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of approach out there, especially in communities of color and there's

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communities of color in all the markets that we're in.

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Awesome.

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Adrian, how do you look at your opportunities and your pipeline?

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We are sort of that, that developer that sort of locally focused.

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I mean, we've done up, you know, through our first 15 years, I say all of our

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projects were in DC that we've expanded a bit beyond that.

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We're doing some projects in Maryland now, and I definitely get the

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advantages that, that Ernst you're talking about.

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What we tried to do is diversify.

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I mean, we do a lot of public private partnerships, like, you know, like I

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think most black developers do, but we also do sort of market rate that, you

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know, aren't, you know, involving, you know, the public sector.

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So that gives us some kind of flexibility.

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We do different product types.

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We do, you know, for sale, we do rental, we do affordable, we do market rate,

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we do commercial.

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So it gives some diversity, but I mean, I'm definitely hearing what Ernst say.

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I would like to be in other markets.

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It's something we've talked about for a while.

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Just seems like something we just never get around to doing it.

236
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And so it's, I think it is a way to diversify.

237
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I think it's, it's a way to kind of also have more fun, add more variety.

238
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I mean, I think that you can kind of work in the same markets and, and

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particularly if you're dealing with government officials, even though

240
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administrations change, you're dealing with sort of the same structures.

241
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And, you know, I think it'd be fun to, you know, go and, and other places and,

242
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you know, I go and visit them and I talk to other developers there.

243
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And I do kind of pick up like a different perspective and, and sort of like a

244
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refresh, and I think they'd like to do that.

245
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So maybe, you know, next year is the year we actually get around to really doing that.

246
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,120
Awesome.

247
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Awesome.

248
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:13,440
And with all this, you know, development going on in your portfolios, how do you

249
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manage your personal life and the sidebar that Ernst, as you grew from

250
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,920
Baltimore to other markets, like how did you set your organization up to be

251
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successful in those markets and also how do you kind of like convince your wife,

252
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:30,240
you know, about this vision that you have to be a coast to coast?

253
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:31,760
Yeah, I don't know if I've convinced her yet.

254
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,360
You know, I travel a lot and, you know, you just have to set certain boundaries.

255
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And so for me, I don't travel on the weekends.

256
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So Friday, Saturday and Sunday, you know, I tend to put the phone away and I, and

257
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I'm really present when I am with my kids those days and I try to coach and I try

258
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to be at all the lacrosse games, the soccer games, and it's really their days.

259
00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:56,840
Right.

260
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And so Friday night is always pizza night.

261
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We watch a movie and then we start Saturday together and we spend the whole day.

262
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So by the time Sunday night rolls around, they're kind of sick of having me around

263
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and I can get back to traveling again.

264
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But, you know, you really have to have these different compartments.

265
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And when you're with family, you have to be really intentional because, you know,

266
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kids grow up fast and then you also have to leave space to have a real relationship

267
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with your partner, your spouse.

268
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And so, you know, making sure that, you know, we have the Netflix thing that we do

269
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together and like those things are really important as well.

270
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And, you know, at the end of the day, setting up our company, a lot of our company is

271
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really either based in our office in Miami or our office here in Baltimore.

272
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So they don't do as much traveling.

273
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Maybe they'll go for requisition.

274
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,360
So they do more like once a month traveling.

275
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It's really, you know, I do a lot of, you know, every week type of traveling to

276
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maintain relationships and, you know, this business is about relationships.

277
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And so you don't want to just go to folks when you need something from them.

278
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And so you want to be present and you want to maintain great relationships.

279
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And I would also say an argument for Mr. Washington to be in different markets is

280
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the knowledge that he has a lot of these secondary and tertiary markets.

281
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They don't have black and brown developers that have that kind of knowledge.

282
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So in terms of joint venturing and partnering with folks in other markets, it's

283
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what we need so that we can change the entire, because I always look at it as

284
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the effective majority in any city in America is really women, minorities, and

285
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immigrants, and we get treated like second class citizens in all of these cities.

286
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And if we had the mentorship and we had the partnerships that allowed us to get

287
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into development and build great development companies, I think our cities

288
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would be better off.

289
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:10,440
So that's one argument for having Mr. Washington travel and do projects with

290
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,600
folks like me in different markets.

291
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:13,680
Okay.

292
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,240
Well, no, that's great food for thought.

293
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,320
I hadn't thought about it that way, but I think that's great.

294
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,600
No, I definitely agree with you, you know, in terms of setting boundaries and,

295
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,640
you know, being, you know, intentional about it.

296
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,120
I mean, you know, my kids have, you know, passed a point where, you know, they

297
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,440
need dad around that much, but, you know, I think that, you know, being an

298
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,960
entrepreneur is really tough and you work like long hours and work late

299
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,560
to the night, but I think the, you know, the advantage is, is that, you know, you

300
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,080
have some schedule flexibility.

301
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,440
So when my kids were younger, I mean, I was there for their sporting events and

302
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:49,960
their plays and things like that.

303
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,400
I mean, you know, if I, you know, had to leave the office at three to get to, you

304
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,320
know, the soccer game by four, you know, I did it.

305
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:57,600
And then, you know, I was there.

306
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,600
And then, you know, when they went to bed, then, you know, I worked a couple

307
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,640
hours and did my emails then, but you're right.

308
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,840
I, you know, I turned off my phone and focused on it.

309
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,480
And I think they, you know, kids really appreciate it.

310
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,960
I mean, they don't always, you know, come up and say, oh, you know, you're

311
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,360
a great dad and I'm glad you're here, but, you know, they're glad you're there.

312
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,040
And so I'm definitely glad I had those experiences.

313
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:24,280
And I feel like I was very much there for my kids and probably not as much

314
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,040
there for my wife as she would say if she were on this podcast, but now the

315
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,480
kids are older, I'm spending more time with her as well.

316
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,880
So it's, you know, you got to balance it.

317
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,000
As an entrepreneur, you get super passionate about what you're doing.

318
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You want to build it.

319
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:40,160
You want to be there.

320
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,600
It's, you know, it's like, you know, that intoxicating.

321
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,920
And so you do have to just, you know, put your phone in your pocket, turn it off,

322
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,280
be there, and then go back later on.

323
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:54,400
Yeah.

324
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,160
It's a real balance.

325
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,880
Yeah.

326
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,480
Based on what you guys have done, which is considerable, where would you both like

327
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,240
to be in terms of yourself and your firms, like say within the next five years?

328
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:07,840
I mean, I certainly have goals.

329
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,080
I mean, just from a personal perspective, I'm getting to the point in my life where,

330
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,760
you know, I'm not ready to hang it up or retire anything, but I definitely want to,

331
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:19,440
you know, be more of a, you know, sort of a thought leader, more of a visionary.

332
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,280
That's hands on.

333
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,000
I've been certainly transitioning towards that over the years.

334
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,320
And so five years now, I certainly hope that that transition is complete where,

335
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,840
you know, I'm just, you know, relationships, you know, sending a vision where I have a

336
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,000
super capable team that's handling all the day to day stuff.

337
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,480
And I'm not really thinking about that.

338
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,560
So that's, that's my personal ambition as terms of a company.

339
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,720
You know, I do want to, you know, be in other markets.

340
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:49,400
I want to, you know, we're in the process of raising our first

341
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,920
institutional equity fund.

342
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,320
So our goal is a hundred million dollars, I certainly expect to have that done in a

343
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,840
lot less than five years.

344
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,400
And, you know, it'd be the position where, you know, we are, you know, we're a player

345
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:07,960
and that we are, you know, you know, financially stable and, you know, can

346
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:09,360
commit our own money and that.

347
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:14,640
And then also then to, you know, complete our transition, you know, into being a,

348
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,400
you know, a mission driven company.

349
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,320
I mean, you've always been a mission driven company, but when you start out in small,

350
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,320
you're trying to make payroll.

351
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,480
I mean, you're trying to keep the lights on, you're trying not to go broke.

352
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,640
And I think, you know, you have to, you know, over time, get out of that mindset

353
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,680
and say, okay, you know, you know, you always, you know, you're an entrepreneur.

354
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,520
You always want to be like more successful, but there comes a point you have to say,

355
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,840
you know, I've, I've, I've been successful, you know, I've, I'm, you know, I'm not

356
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,680
like the biggest company in the world, but I've been successful and now I can shift

357
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,160
my attention to being more mission driven, to, you know, help people in communities.

358
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:52,120
You know, like Ernst said, be like a mentor to the next generation of black developers

359
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,240
and spend more time doing that.

360
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,200
So I certainly want to have a lot more of my focus on that part of the mission and a

361
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,400
lot less my focus on like the nuts and bolts of running a company.

362
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:02,560
Yeah.

363
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,560
And we're still in like the building phase.

364
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:11,040
We're just about 3000 units and, you know, it would be great, you know, when, when,

365
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,720
when we had like a hundred units, it was like, let's get to a thousand units.

366
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,400
And then you get to a thousand units and it's like, can we do two now with a three,

367
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,480
you know, in the next five years, we'd like to get over 5,000 units.

368
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:30,080
And, and, and, and maybe, you know, get to 10 because the way capital works in some

369
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,640
of these large projects, you know, before, if we did a hundred unit project, that was

370
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:34,040
great.

371
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:41,960
Now, you know, if it's 250, 500, so we could probably get to 5,000 to 10,000 units in

372
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,960
the next five years.

373
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,280
And then it's really once, once in five years, we want to start to redefine what

374
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,280
success means to us.

375
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:57,200
And on our side is how do we raise capital so we can invest equity in that, in that

376
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,200
next generation?

377
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:04,440
Like how do we develop a bench and how do we normalize people that look like the

378
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,040
folks on this panel, women, minorities, and immigrants?

379
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,280
How do we normalize us being in development?

380
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,880
And so I really define that as having equity that can be invested in folks at

381
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,320
really small levels, because, you know, if you come out of school, even if you have a

382
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:27,000
master's in real estate from like Columbia or Cornell, you're not ready to do what

383
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,960
Mr. Washington does, right?

384
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,720
You got to show me you can do that first row house.

385
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:37,520
And so that's why we developed this Equal Fund to level the playing field and create

386
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,520
a gateway for people who have gone out and gotten the degrees.

387
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,520
But now how do we, you know, put you through training day in Denzel style?

388
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:47,520
And I'm like,

389
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,520
all over again, would you do anything differently?

390
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,520
I do.

391
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,520
I mean, you got to sort of split that question in two.

392
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,520
I mean, I have no regrets.

393
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,520
I'm very happy, very blessed with both professionally and personally.

394
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,520
So I have zero regrets about anything I did, because whenever you unravel,

395
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,520
wherever you say, if I did this, then this wouldn't happen.

396
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,520
So I have no regrets.

397
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,520
But I mean, if I was to advise someone, you know, like, how do you get into

398
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:22,520
development?

399
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,520
I mean, I think there are, you know, I do it way differently than I did.

400
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,520
I mean, I bootstrapped my way up.

401
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,520
I mean, I got into a field where I knew absolutely zero about and just dove in

402
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:37,520
and made every mistake in the book and, you know, got lucky, you know, and, you

403
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,520
know, there are dozens of mistakes I made that could have, like, you know, killed

404
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,520
a dream and just got lucky and worked hard and had, you know, good people

405
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:47,520
around me.

406
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,520
So it's good.

407
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,520
But I mean, if I was to advise someone young, one of the developer, I mean, I

408
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,520
would say, you know, go, I'd say go work for large developer first.

409
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,520
I mean, it's something I didn't do, you know, but I think there are just so many

410
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,520
kind of like best in class people like a JBG or Heinz or, you know, like a

411
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,520
Hoffman kind of folks like that.

412
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,520
I'd go work, I would have go work there two or three years, see how that works.

413
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,520
You know, maybe you like it.

414
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,520
Maybe like, you know, you're on the path there and that's environment for you.

415
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,520
That's great.

416
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,520
But if not, I then transitioned to, you know, more entrepreneurial

417
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,520
environment, you know, like maybe, you know, my firm or Ernst or Spore, you

418
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,520
know, to, you know, to see how more entrepreneurial environment does it.

419
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,520
Like, how do you do without all those resources?

420
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,520
How do you do with all that, without that kind of, you know, national brand

421
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:31,520
name, see how someone else do it.

422
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,520
And then again, at that point assess where you are.

423
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,520
So to say, Hey, you know, this is a place is great.

424
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,520
It's a, you know, I feel like home here.

425
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,520
I feel like I can really move up and be a principal in this firm.

426
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:42,520
It's great.

427
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,520
But then if you have that point where you still don't feel that way, then

428
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,520
you're prepared to start your own thing.

429
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,520
And then, you know, you've got that resume, that track record, that training

430
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:51,520
of how the big boys do it.

431
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,520
You've kind of looked over the shoulder of someone like us and see, okay,

432
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:56,520
there's an entrepreneur does it.

433
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,520
And then you're prepared to go out.

434
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,520
And, you know, I think, you know, I could have started at a sort of much

435
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,520
higher level if I had done that and, you know, avoided a lot of pitfalls.

436
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,520
And I think it would have been a, a smoother experience, frankly.

437
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,520
So, you know, I don't have, like I said, I don't have regrets of what I've

438
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,520
done, but I mean, I think that there are a lot of ways you can avoid, you

439
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,520
know, mistakes that you make if you just sort of start out and say, and I

440
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,520
know how it is when you're young, you know, I got to get started like right

441
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,520
now, you know, it's like, damn, you know, I'm 30 and I haven't, you know,

442
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,520
started my business yet.

443
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,520
And you look back when 30 is a long way in the rear view mirror and you're

444
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,520
like, you know, you got plenty of time to do all that stuff.

445
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,520
So, you know, don't have to be in such a rush.

446
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,520
I think that's really great advice.

447
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,520
I mean, I don't regret anything, but being a little bit more patient, I

448
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,520
would be a little bit more patient with certain things because I was that

449
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,520
22-year-old, 23-year-old thinking that, you know, the sky is falling and I

450
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,520
need to do things more and more and more.

451
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,520
And you kind of rush through.

452
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,520
But then, you know, part of it is those pitfalls help to find you, right?

453
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:18,520
They, if you get through them, they help kind of strengthen your whole

454
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,520
approach and, you know, you become better for it.

455
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,520
But you don't necessarily have to go through those things if you're a

456
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,520
little bit more patient and you get more mentored.

457
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:34,520
I wish I was more mentored because I was, I just started doing it on my own

458
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,520
and, you know, made a lot of mistakes.

459
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,520
But small mistakes don't kill you.

460
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,520
Yes.

461
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,520
There we go.

462
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,520
I've made small mistakes, medium mistakes, and big mistakes.

463
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,520
But you're right.

464
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,520
Those experiences form you and they make you tougher.

465
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,520
And, you know, it's a two-sided coin because if you don't have that kind

466
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,520
of ambition to do foolish things, then, you know, maybe, you know, you

467
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,520
never do it.

468
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,520
But it is a different perspective.

469
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,520
I was talking to one of my younger employees yesterday and, you know, he

470
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:12,520
said, well, I got a birthday coming up.

471
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:13,520
And I was like, oh, okay.

472
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,520
Well, you know, and he said, well, he's turning 29 like next week.

473
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,520
And he's like, yeah, man, I'm like starting to worry that I have all these

474
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,520
things I wanted to accomplish and I haven't done it yet.

475
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,520
I'm like, you know, dude, you know, twice as old as you.

476
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,520
You got plenty of time to get stuff done.

477
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:35,520
So it's, you know, just slow down and appreciate what you got right now.

478
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:36,520
Absolutely.

479
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,520
It's the moment, right?

480
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:39,520
Yeah.

481
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,520
So we appreciate it, guys.

482
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,520
Thanks for your advice.

483
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,520
I think this was all good.

484
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,520
Appreciate the gift of time.

485
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,520
Another day at the shop.

486
00:26:49,520 --> 00:27:12,520
And we'll see you next time.

487
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,520
Bye.