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This is the real estate shop where each episode will bring you a top industry expert to share

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their current programs or projects that are making an impact in our communities today.

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Be sure to check us out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

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Welcome to the real estate shop. In today's episode we are blessed to have Ms. Catherine Buell,

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2024 Harvard Loeb Fellow and former director of Amazon's $2 billion housing equity fund. Catherine,

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how are you today? I'm great. So excited to be here. Good. Yeah, we're excited to have you as

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well, Catherine. You know, your background is tremendously impressive from what we've seen

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and what we know about you from being in DC and the work that you did in DC.

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We're just for the listeners, so can you mind telling them about your background and how you

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kind of matriculated to where you are today? Yeah, absolutely. So I like to consider myself

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somewhere between a nosy busybody and a startup kid. I am an attorney by trade. I practice law at

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a firm called Pat & Boggs and I bought my house, my first house in Ward 8 in historic Anacostia on

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Pleasant Street. It really was a pleasant place to live because I thought my house was beautiful

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and did not know that that was going to start an almost 20-year journey into community development.

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In historic Anacostia, I got curious about my community and started showing up at community

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meetings. And this is around the time, got a bit more active around the time that Mayor Fenty became

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mayor. And he was looking for folks east of the River to serve on boards. And so I started in

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the built world and community development serving on the DC Historic Preservation Review Board

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at a time that the city was launching its historic homeowner grant program. They actually had the

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funds. They had not formally launched the program. One of my neighbors who worked for Eleanor Holmes

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Norton, who's now actually the Public Building Services Commissioner, knew that the funding was

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sitting in an account and wanted it to be allocated to our community. And so when I was on the board,

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we ushered those funds out, having the initial million dollars invested in historic Anacostia,

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helping the Historic Preservation Office work through some tax issues that they had with the

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Office of Tax and Revenue, if you can believe it. And really enjoyed my time. Two years later,

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I found myself chairing the board. I genuinely love my time at HPRB. I loved hearing all of the

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community input and seeing how the government process ran. And after a couple of years of

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serving on the board, my practice at Patton Box was representing sovereign wealth funds,

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wealthy investors going into private equity funds. I was the annoying attorney who would call

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and rip your documents to shreds and tell you the 50 things that you needed to change.

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I actually started working out of the Middle East, but really loved my community service and

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community development work and decided to go in full time. So I started with DC government as

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the executive director for the St. Elizabeth's East Campus. I actually came after

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Feras Kumsayay who got the money for the St. Elizabeth's East redevelopment. He got

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to secured $120 million and also passed a master plan for its development. And I started when

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we needed to have buildings coming out of the ground. So oversaw the redevelopment of Gateway DC,

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which was our open air pavilion. If you haven't been to Gateway DC, it is a wonderful, wonderful time.

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Our initial events, we had a ice slide. We opened up with a Whole Foods pop-up market

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on the weekends. And most importantly, we had Rocklea City. We bought out the hipsters to bring

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out the music, the culture, and the entertainment to the campus. And that really put St. Elizabeth's

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East on the map. After hosting a number of parties, we then turned to redeveloping

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a 1955 chapel. And we called it Rise Demonstration Center, which stood for relate, innovate,

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stimulate, and elevate. It was the one place on the campus that community members could meet.

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And so we wanted to create a meeting place, but also a technology center, something that started

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to introduce the idea that commercial development would take place on the campus and bring the

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community members into the campus in a meaningful way. And we opened Rise from a two-page concept

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paper to a bowl ribbon cutting within nine months. We moved at the speed of lightning.

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And because of Rise, we were able to make St. Elizabeth's become a reel for many people.

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We attracted our first private sector developer finally. And then we got monumental sports and

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entertainment to agree to develop the entertainment and sports arena on the campus, which was the

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Mystics Performance Arena and the Wizards Practice Facility. And we looked at Camden, New Jersey.

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It's a place where my family resides into what was happening there with their basketball team,

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relocating their practice facility in Camden. People in Atlanta saw what I did. I had gone to

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undergrad at Spelman and worked at the Georgia General Assembly. They saw that I jumped out of

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the law firm and went into community development and asked if I would come down to Atlanta to

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serve as the COO of the Atlanta Housing Authority. So I started out as the COO, the Atlanta Housing

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Authority Services Now Over 25,000 Homes, households in the city of Atlanta, quietly

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supports over 10% of the rental market. And really is it just a very well-run housing authority.

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They have just over 200 employees. Most of their properties are privately run and operated.

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And I will say I got the pleasure of working with a first-class staff and team. And after nine

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months became the CEO of the Atlanta Housing Authority. And at a pivotal time when they were

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getting back into the game, starting to partner with Invest Atlanta and the Atlanta Beltline,

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because housing prices were rapidly and quickly escalating, we revamped and re-marketed our

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Homeplex program, which was our project-based subsidy program so that we could be more of a

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partner for private sector development that was happening in the city. And really enjoyed my time

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there. I came back, worked briefly for the Greater Washington Partnership at a time that they were

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working with the Urban Institute to help the region look at the housing issues and what was

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happening. And so Urban Institute issued a regional housing report in 2019. It coincided with the

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WCOGs passage of a regional housing resolution calling for an additional 360,000 new homes in our

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region, 75% of which needed to be affordable and 75% of which needed to be near transit.

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And then I got a call that, hey, Amazon is looking for somebody to help think through its

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affordable housing platform. You should apply and apply. And in the middle of COVID, after the

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shutdown started at Amazon, and I will pause there, but it was, I will say, it was like holding

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on to a spaceship and riding it literally to the moon. Unbelievable. That covered a lot of ground.

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I mean, starting with, like you said, the Housing Preservation View Board, the various DC jobs,

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and even the Atlanta, which is another power town I like to call it, those are high profile jobs. And

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I'm a little familiar with the housing authority from the time I spent with Michaels.

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I think we did an RFP with them early on. Yeah, Michaels is one of their major developers. Yeah.

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Unbelievable. Okay, so at that point, so we do find out how you actually got into

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Amazon. And I think around the same time, LinkedIn basically did a little release saying, hey,

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Amazon launches a $2 billion housing equity fund, announces you the director. While you were in the

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position, how much funding did Amazon deploy into deals? Yeah, well, maybe I can back up and just

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talk briefly about how the Amazon Housing Equity Fund came to be. Sure. When I started, actually

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didn't tell anybody that I started, which is a bit hard for me because I'm an oversharer.

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And because Amazon didn't want the world to know that they were going into affordable housing,

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Microsoft had a fund, Microsoft was the first of the tech companies to come out with a commitment

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of nearly $500 million, shortly followed by Facebook, as well as Google, all variations of

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different commitments. Some going through housing stake funds to administer their dollars, some

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offering land. And Amazon wanted to do something different. So two weeks into my starting at Amazon,

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I just for fun wrote out a paper of how I would, you know, if I had all of the resources in the

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world, my initial assets, actually $10 billion, we reduced it to $2 billion to be modest, if you can

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believe that. And wrote out a paper saying, hey, if I could create a fund, I would do it in a fund

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structure because I was a private equity attorney with a five-year commitment period, three years

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to deploy the funds. Half of the projects would be existing, nationally occurring, affordable,

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multifamily buildings, because we knew that was a hole in the boat that while the regions

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in Seattle and Washington, D.C., as well as Nashville needed new affordable housing, they

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also needed to pay attention to the loss of affordability, because so many properties were being

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flipped for and redeveloped for luxury housing. I would pay attention to those non-traditional

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agencies. So many people only look at your traditional housing agencies and they forget

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that your schools, your departments of public works, your transportation departments have

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excess land and sometimes in the best parts of town where you really do want housing development.

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So they would be potential partners that we needed to look at. And finally, paying attention to equity.

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And at the time, this is just after George Floyd and to the executives at the time,

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making sure that we put an exclamation point on this thing called equity was important. And so

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we wanted to pay attention to how we could not only administer these funds, but do it in a manner

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that was equitable. Two months into my time, we were pitching Jay Carney, who at our time oversaw

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our government and corporate affairs office. He was Obama's spokesperson, so so many people

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knew him, but he also knew government, thank goodness, and understood what we were trying to do. And

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I'll tell you, by September, we were starting to get traction internally to launch this fund in

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January, and we didn't have our first deal. And I will say I was sweating. And JBG and the folks

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at the Washington Housing Initiative bought us a deal that we could not unsee. It was a 16-acre

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property called Crystal House. My best friend actually lived in it. She moved from the Navy

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Yard to Crystal House to because she took in her niece and she wanted a larger apartment that was

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relatively affordable. And they have some beautiful, pretty large apartment homes. And we could acquire

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help with the Washington Housing Conservancy acquire it at the speed of market. And so we stepped

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in as a financing partner, financing at, it was a $380-plus million acquisition. We financed $379

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million of it, so 97% of the project for a new startup nonprofit, which is unreal. And the second

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deal that we decided that we were going to support was King County Housing Authority.

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Steve Norman, who also was a Loeb Fellow, and he had been a mentor of mine when I was in Atlanta,

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had led the charge at King County Housing Authority in Washington State to quietly acquire

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a portfolio of over 7,000 workforce homes. And so these were apartment homes that could go up to 80%

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of area meeting income. They were not your typical subsidized product. They also had their

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subsidized public housing portfolio, Section 8 and Section 9. But this was something different

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that the King County Housing Authority had. And they've been having a number of conversations with

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property owners and had a list of properties they were looking at in Bellevue, Washington in particular.

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And we provided $185 million for them to be able to acquire 1,000 apartment homes, primarily in

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the Bellevue, Washington area. And then the last thing we did, Nashville, Tennessee, during COVID,

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increased their property taxes by 34%. They just weren't getting the income at the city level that

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they needed and their property taxes were historically low, but they decided at the beginning of COVID,

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they were going to increase their property taxes. And I knew that was a challenge because at my time

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in Atlanta, they were grappling with the same issue when the Mercedes-Benz stadium was being built

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and property values were rapidly escalating in the west side near the Atlanta University Center.

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And so we duplicated a model where we, through a nonprofit called the Housing Fund run by Marshall

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Crawford, provided them with over $3 million to be able to pay the property tax increase for low

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income and moderate income households, primarily focused on those zip codes where displacement

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and gentrification was likely. And so being able to step in where some property owners actually saw

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15, 50% increase in their property taxes, we could create a fund that would just pay cash

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and pay for that property tax increase so that they would not lose their homes.

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And so having a foot in every single market, we've launched the Housing Equity Fund on January 6th,

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the day that there was a lot going on at the Capitol. So I woke up at 5 a.m. that morning and

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the news went on, I think between 5 and 6 a.m. and it literally was like, well, I've never seen news

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go around the world. But like that, it went around the world and back again. And around noon, it got

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quieter and quieter and quieter because attention was focused elsewhere, but word was out that

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Amazon was in the housing world. And what's interesting is that even though we made this big

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announcement, it didn't become real for folks until we announced that we were partnering with the

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three transit agencies. Nina Albert was ahead of Muamada's real estate division at the time

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and Sound Transit was looking to redevelop their land for public purposes through my

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Atlanta context. We knew the folks over at the Department of Transportation, newly formed

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Department of Transportation in Nashville and bought We Go To The Table. And so we bought three,

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we committed $300 million to the transit agencies to be able to redevelop their land and our land

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adjacent to the transportation nodes for the purposes of affordable housing. And suddenly,

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the Amazon Housing Equity Fund was a real tangible thing that people knew could be a resource to

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help them close their deals. Well, I'm still a little stuck on, I guess it was the Crystal House

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who said there's a $380 million acquisition of which you all funded $379 million.

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Wow. We did negotiate it down to the, I mean, I love to negotiate, but man, those are some

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tough negotiations because they were our first deal. And we were subsidizing, we were financing the

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entire thing. We wanted to make sure that there were three bedrooms and two bedrooms that were

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part of the affordability side. We wanted to make sure that the deed restrictions were clear. So

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thanks to Kimberly Driggins, she actually agreed to the 99-year long-term affordability

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commitment and that's at the standard for the Amazon Housing Equity Fund. And we wanted to make

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sure it was done right. And we had a great partner in the Washington Housing Conservancy, but yeah,

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we were it. It's like it beats 65% low in the value. I mean, I was like 99, 299,

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however many years it needed, I'll do it. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, it was beautiful. It was

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it was truly, truly beautiful. And I will say we closed that deal. Ironically, internally,

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our finance person hadn't even done a real estate deal. The level of Hutzpah internally in a tech

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company to innovate, to be bold, it didn't mean that our finance person was top class and paid

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attention to every detail. And we had great external financial advisors and underwriters and all of

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the things. But the team that we had, I still just an honor to work with such a dedicated team who

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rolled up their sleeves and said, this is absolutely something we can do, we're going to do. We were

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bold about it. We were diligent in our in our review of the acquisition, but we most importantly

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made it happen. And because my best friend from elementary school still actually lives in the

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building, I can see the difference. I can see the difference of who lives there. I know that it's

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having a real impact and we're giving people who otherwise wouldn't be able to live a block away

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and in the center of Amazon's redevelopment near three different metro stations an opportunity

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to live part of a thriving and growing community. And a great education system right there.

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Wow, that's the families. Was there a funding criteria during your time?

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There was. So we really wanted to focus on being the but for capital. While Crystal House stood out,

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we were not going to give that deal to everybody. We wanted to be no more than 25% of the capital

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stack. So we were looking for projects where the entitlements were already in place, the government

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financing or whatever financing that was going to be brought to the deal was in place and we would

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come in and be the but for capital. There were, however, a number of acquisitions because you

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can't get acquisition dollars out there on the market. There were a number of acquisitions where

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we were able to help step in and help nonprofit and mission driven partners acquire the properties

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and then refinance pretty quickly to secure their permanent debt and back out and then just be the

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mezzanine debt partner. But most importantly, help those acquisitions happen again at the speed

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of market, which if you're a nonprofit fulfilling your mission, you don't have $100 million in the

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bank. You may have $5 million in the bank. You may if you're lucky, you may have $10 million in the

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bank. But having Amazon come in with modified underwriting criteria is that didn't require

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that you have the same level of reserves recognizing your mission. And also lowering the equity

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requirements on our end made the difference for so many partners to be able to enter into the

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affordable housing effort at scale, industry at scale. Unbelievable. Did you all have any focus on

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black and brown developer participation or just pretty much the nonprofit was the initial threshold?

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We absolutely did. So we worked actually with both nonprofits and mission driven partners.

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And because equity was our middle name, we took two different approaches. In the DC region,

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what's fascinating and we're less than the DC region, we have a number of developers of color

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who who know who have three, four, five multifamily buildings under their belt, they know how to

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secure affordable housing financing, whether it's tax credits, whether it's bond financing,

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they know their stuff. And so finding developers of color in a place like the DC, Maryland,

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Virginia, DMV area region was not hard. But when you step out of the DC area into places like

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Seattle and Nashville, it is hard. It's very difficult to find affordable housing developers

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who have the experience and who have who have projects to show forward. And so we recognize

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that we had to play on two different levels. First for the larger developers, the gyre lynches of

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the world, the blue skies of the world, the donkeys partners of the world, they could pretty

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easily come in, figure out what our model is, figure out how our financing worked, and put a

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deal together. And what we did is if you were a developer of color, we gave you the first look.

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It didn't necessarily mean you got a preference in our dollars, but as you know, those dollars go

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fast. So being able to be moved to the front of the line and consideration was really important.

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And we were thoughtful, not only about the diversity of those developers, but also where they were

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developing. And so we made sure in the DC region, we not only supported deals in Virginia, which

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actually was pretty easy, because they don't have all of the restrictions like TOPA on acquisitions

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that potentially slow things down. But we also invested heavily in Prince or just counting,

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we invested near five of their transit stations, we invested in Montgomery County,

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and then we invested now in all eight wards of Washington DC, not just concentrating

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our investments east of the river, but also investing in Ward 3 and Ward 2 and the like.

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And so moving developers of color to the front of the line was our first solution.

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And so you see so many, and I really am blessed, I'm fans of these folks.

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I get tickled when I drive past their buildings that their projects have advanced.

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It's so exciting to see that Dante's Partners project has opened at 7th and in Rhode Island,

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they were our first DC investment, and they have absolutely done us proud.

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And then we created an accelerator program. And our housing accelerator program actually was

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inspired by the conversation I had with a friend, Farajie, who had gone through capital

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impact partners, real estate mentorship and development program. And he was telling me

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about this program and I was like, we need that. But that's exactly what we need. So

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when we launched the fund, we not only had the $2 billion, essentially loan fund,

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but we also had $125 million of grant funds to administer. And so through capital impact

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partners, National Urban League, and LISC in the Puget Sound, which had just started

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up an office, we decided that we were going to work with local partners who already had

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the relationships, already had the trust of local developers, provide them with funding.

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Our initial allocation was $21 million to the three partners. They were to provide

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mentorship, redevelopment dollars, which are very, very difficult to get as you're when

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you're starting up a new development venture, as well as training on what was needed for

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emerging developers of color to be able to stand up development firm. So many times people think

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about, and it's very, very easy to think about, okay, well, what's the financing that I need to

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get this project done, but your back office is a mess. And you don't know how you're going to

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sustain yourself over the long and short term to actually get that redevelopment project done.

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And so so many of the stories from our accelerator participants,

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were just beautiful. And so that really was our solution. And that accelerator program has been

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renewed. There's been a second round of developers. And there are a number of developers who have

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come through who actually were able to secure Housing Equity Fund financing. One of my favorites

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was actually Jebediah Gardner in Seattle. Jebediah had been a developer for 13 years,

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in Seattle, pushing his business forward, and got the development rights from a church who was

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moving out of Seattle, they were in the central district. And so he secured the right to acquire

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their property and redevelop it as affordable housing. And he came to us and he asked us for

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something like an $8 million load. And our underwriters took a look at it. And they said,

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okay, you could do a couple of different things here, you could give them a loan, but there's

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not going to be any revenue to pay this loan back for some time. Or you could just outright

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give them a grant. And we presented it to our internal investment committee and we got approved

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for a $5 million grant. We made sure that the land was put in Jebediah's name, not in his

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necessarily partnership name, his firm was 51% owned by him, and he had business partners

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partners to make sure that he was in the driver's seat. And now there is an African American man

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in the city of Seattle who owns property in the central district. And he owns and controls those

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development rights. And it's just been such a pleasure to see him blossom. But it's stories

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and perseverance that people like Jebediah that actually keep me going because there are people

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out there with just dreams and they're trying to put things together in places and spaces where

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nobody like them exists, nobody like them is thriving. And had he not put his hand up and

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spoken out, I don't think that we would have paid attention. But because of the grace of God,

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and our underwriting team saying, Hey, if you're really focused on equity, this is the right thing

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to do. We decided not to do the easy thing, we decided to do the right thing. Yeah, one thing

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I would say is, I know all the players in DC, but I spent a lot of times in my hometown of Philly,

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right there across the bridge from Camden. And the word starts spreading out, and folks are like,

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what's Amazon doing? I'm like, sorry, guys, they don't, they don't come as far north. And I mean,

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jealousy level was just through the roof, because we were watching these deals unfold. I'm like,

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guys, I mean, it's all about geography and demographics. So yeah, yeah, I could have gone

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to Camden, I would, I'm part of South Jersey girl. So I feel you really can use that in Camden,

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Philadelphia, you know, but we've made Camden's made some nice progress, but it's been a game changer.

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Yeah.

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Now, I know, Catherine, you're up to something different now, completely different. You mind

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telling the listeners what you've been up to lately at Harvard. So I am actually, when I was on

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HPRB, this is probably about 15 years ago, Javier Lynch came back from this fellowship and he said,

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I just came out of the most spectacular fellowship. And I got to think about the built world for a year,

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and just take a year off and just, I don't tificate and ponder what was going on in,

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in real estate, architecture and design. And something about how he talked about the fellowship

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and the time really stuff with me. There are a number of Washingtonians since him who have done

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the fellowship from Harry Chagoni to Andy Altman to Kimberly Driggins. And I really wanted to know

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what was up with that low fellowship. And so as I was rounding out year three at Amazon,

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it knew that our investment period was coming to a close. I started to look around to see what

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else was out there. And the fellowship application was open. So I decided to put my name in the hat

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and luckily got selected. And the low fellowship really is an opportunity to take a step back.

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It's through the Harvard Graduate School of Design and some mid career professional development

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fellowship. They bring in somewhere between eight and 10 professionals from around the world. So

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you're interacting with people in our class. We have an architect from Norway who worked on the

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Thai-Burma-Borlin border. We have a community developer who works on massive scale redevelopment

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based out of South Africa. And when I say massive scale, it's redeveloping what are sometimes referred

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to as slums into 1500 home communities to redevelopers in Philly and an artist who curated the

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British Pavilion in Venice at the Architectura Biennale. Just such beautiful creative minds.

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And you get to come and audit classes and honestly just take a step back and reexamine

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not only the built world, but how you relate and how you show up into the world. And so

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other than the expectation that you take at least one class at the Graduate School of Design

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each semester, the world is oyster. And for me, one of the areas that I really wanted to

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dive into was divinity. And so I've taken a number of classes at the Harvard School of Divinity,

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specifically focused on Black spirituality, deepening my understanding, because I wanted to

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focus on this question of what it means to create a love village. And love village is what I call

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wellness focused lifestyle communities that are inviting to Black and Brown people. Through my

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journeys, I share my career trajectory, but I will say there's a different side of that career

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trajectory, which is you get tired, you get burnt out, you get weary, particularly in community

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development. When you're fighting the good fight on behalf of everyday people, there is a toll for

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you. And I would, in my free time, really enjoy wellness retreats around the world. But many

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times when I enjoy those wellness retreats around the world, there weren't a ton of people who

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looked like me. And I kind of felt like, you know, that's just part of the compromise. They were also

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pretty expensive. And after having my own health challenges at one period, I started hosting in

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my backyard a group called Heart Refuge in Washington, DC, run by Rashi Hughes and Mama Aisha. They

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do meditations, weekly meditations for anybody who is interested, specifically bringing in people

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of color and started hosting them as we were doing outdoor ceremonies and thinking, this is exactly

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what I want to create. The community I want to create, this is a vibe I want to create, bringing

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in people of color into this wellness movement. And so my time here at Harvard has been focused on

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that wellness question, expanding it, understanding it, looking at what it could possibly mean for me.

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And I feel like I've only touched the tip of the mountain. That's I leave. I don't, I feel like

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there's still so much more in this emerging field. But most importantly, finding that not only is a

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wellness industry now a $7 trillion industry, the wellness industry, wellness real estate in

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particular is a four close to a $400 billion industry in the fastest growing subset of that

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wellness industry faster than mental health, faster than healthy eating, and faster than

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wellness tourism. It's growing, it's booming, and it's something that I expect we're going to start

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to hear more about more and more, but particularly at higher socioeconomic levels, as opposed to for

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everyday people who also need access to their own wellness. Unbelievable. So now that you're

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getting ready to graduate from the program, you'll be graduating. And after that, and you hit the

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ground, which direction are you going to run? Yeah, well, in the near future, I'm going to

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stay on my learning journey. I am so grateful for all of the things that I've learned,

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because there's a whole world out there that many times when you're representing a brand,

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you're representing an agency or an organization, you get hyper focused on their work. But being

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able to take a step back and think about, okay, if I'm focused on wellness, what about aging issues?

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Harvest Joint Center for Housing just recently issued a report on aging. And what they noted is

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not only are 10,000 people turning 65 and older each day in the United States, but that aging

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population is becoming more and more diverse. The housing in this country is not suitable for that

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aging population. So we are going to have a public health crisis, particularly at older ages on our

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hands. And it's something I've been aware of, but have not focused on. And those aging populations

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in their diversity also are looking at multi-generational housing solutions. And so spending more time in

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that aging world and understanding what the implications are, because I think they're going

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to be pretty significant for the housing market, as well as for the public health market and marrying

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those two industries. But staying in this learning mode, and then also working with folks behind the

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scenes. One of the things that I really enjoyed this year is seeing so many people, whether it's

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Kellyanne Kirkpatrick at Amazon, whether it's Latrina Owens at St. Elizabeth's, like the next

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generation coming in and really doing their thing and creating beautiful spaces, beautiful programs

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has just really warmed my heart. And so working behind the scenes to support those organizations

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and doing more strategic advisory work, as opposed to being back in front of the camera.

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Gotcha. You've had some pretty impressive jobs, Catherine. How much of that would you attribute

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to networking and building the relationships you've built? And what kind of advice would you have for

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listeners around that? Yeah, I actually attribute my jobs to spirit. Spirit blessing me because it,

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you know, so many times I've been almost the least likely person in the room. I remember

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when one of my colleagues on HBRB suggested that I be the chair, I really thought I had, it was

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taking a back. I was like, I don't know. I don't know about that. I really got to think about this

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and pray on this. And in Atlanta, I was like the intern who's returned. So my advice for folks,

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I guess it is kind of networking, but stay curious. It's my curiosity. And the fact that I will show

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up in rooms that sometimes are not paid, right? Showing up in rooms where you got to volunteer,

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you can just geek out on whatever the work is. But working with people and feeling how fun it

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is to work together in these different spaces. Also trying different things. I was not afraid to

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try something totally different. Whether it's this fellowship, I mean, some folks are like,

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what exactly are we doing? So you're going to be a student to go into work for DC government. I

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remember folks gave me such a hard time from leaving corporate law to go work for the government.

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And looking back now, that's a distant memory. But at the time, it was a decision and it was a

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big deal to some folks. And so networking, but also trying different things, being willing to be

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in different spaces with people who may not look anything like you. And being willing to use your

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voice and learning how to use your voice. There are some times where I found maybe I was a little

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too strong or a little too harsh, but that's okay. Learning how to moderate and then show up because

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people's ability to bridge the gap is really, really critical. I don't think that we fully

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appreciate even in community development how much those spaces lack diversity. I went to the

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Housing Finance Conference that happens in Chicago every year and I was just struck at

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in the finance world, how few people of color there really are on the affordability side. And

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that's something that we still have to work on. And so not being afraid to go into those rooms,

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to learn everything that you can to really show up and make a space for yourself.

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Totally agree. So in addition to many of the high level leadership roles that you've had,

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are there any professional organizations outside activities or other voluntary positions that you

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hold? Oh, yes. So I am still active with the women of color and community development. And for those

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who don't know about Wicked and are curious, please check them out. They have a great board,

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a great slew of events, and great networking opportunities for the women. So many times,

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particularly women of color, we really are the only ones in the room. And so every time I'm

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around them, it feels like a great big hug. And I'm so impressed by each and every member of Wicked.

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I'm also still active with the Anacostia Coordinating Council. I love my folks in Ward 8. And on the

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Smithsonian Anacostia Museum Board, which is the Smithsonian's only community based museum.

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And that one is actually really, I hold it special to my heart because it was an exhibit at the

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museum that actually made me want to go into community development full time. Dr. Gail Lowe

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put on an exhibit of housing redevelopment east of the river and talked that exhibit talked about

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the impact that the Federal Housing Finance Administration had on financing at basically

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no cost to these developers with no equity requirements, multifamily's garden style apartment

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buildings that you see scattered across east of the river. And that a lot of the movement that

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took place in the city where families moved from Georgetown to Southwest to east of the river

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happened because of federal housing policy. And I seeing that big picture, I said, oh my goodness,

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that is something that I really want to get my teeth into. And it's just an exhibit at a museum.

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And so it's a real honor to be able to serve on their board and to see the great work that

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they're doing around sustainability and education and the like.

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Awesome. How are you managing self, right, in your work life balance and staying in alignment?

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Yeah, I am learning to pace myself. And that honestly has been the biggest gift and the biggest

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blessing this year. For those who have not read Rest is Resistance, I strongly encourage you to

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read it because so many times we think our value or see our value in our accomplishments.

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And forget that particularly as people of color, we have to calm our nervous systems. There are

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challenges that we face every day, whether it's microaggressions, whether it's outright

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aggressions and outright discrimination, we carry with us legacies of challenges and

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hurt from our ancestors and from our parents that need to heal, really making sure that I can take

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that time to heal. So I've been a meditator since I was an undergrad. I am an avid meditator. My

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prayer life has become very, very active. I will go to every self-help, self-healing event that I can.

390
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I have no shame and no ego about the learnings because there are so many learnings out there.

391
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:24,400
And I actually do see it as part of the charge in my life. This wellness world has held me in ways

392
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:32,400
that I could not have imagined. I lost my father when I was young. My mother has late-stage dementia

393
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,360
and that was a real struggle when I was running the Amazon Housing Equity Fund to balance the

394
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:44,720
work that I was doing in the public-facing journey as well as this private challenge of losing

395
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:51,280
a version of my mother that I once had and having to become and step into a caretaking role.

396
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:59,600
Being able to call on support groups, early in my career, I joined the Washington Bar Association

397
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:04,560
and actually found them to be a great support group. I'm not ashamed of calling on all of those

398
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:10,400
tools to make sure that not only is my physical health strong but that my mental health is strong

399
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,960
and that I can learn how to grow and maneuver and most importantly take care of myself.

400
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,840
Excellent. It almost sounds like when you talked about Love Village a little earlier,

401
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:29,440
all of that in my mind was a component of wellness as well. And you just hit it a little bit harder

402
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:36,000
right now. Absolutely. So my final question would be what do you envision the next five years

403
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,960
looking like for you? But I will preface that by saying I got a feeling it's going to have some

404
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:49,200
wellness involved there. Absolutely is. I am going to jump as deep into this wellness world as I can.

405
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,000
There's a wellness summit coming up and I looked at the panel and it was

406
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:03,120
it maybe there was one person of color and one woman. But I was thinking to myself there's

407
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:09,040
not any black people in this conversation. And if you look at the data, black people are more

408
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:15,520
likely to live alone at every age and stage of our lives. The trauma that we experience on a daily

409
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,200
basis is pretty significant and we know that isolation and loneliness is an epidemic in our

410
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:28,160
country and it's particularly harsh on African Americans and our health. And so I want to stay

411
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:34,000
committed to this field, building out new models. Again, whether my name is on the front or not,

412
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,720
I'm working behind the scenes. I've started some of those conversations, particularly with health

413
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:46,160
health care groups and health finance groups who are equally thinking about how do we start to create

414
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,640
different solutions for what's happening in the market. And then of course, building out Love

415
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,280
Village. I would love in the next five years for Love Village to actually really be a real place.

416
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:02,080
And I'm encouraged that so many people are thinking about these solutions. I was actually just on a

417
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:07,680
panel with the mayor of Bogota and she talked about Mayor Lopez, she talked about how they

418
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:12,800
created care communities in Bogota. So there are other people who are thinking about how do we

419
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:18,800
care for our own, how do we show up differently for people who need the support and create that

420
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,640
safety net system where it's not a public health system, it's not an external third party, but

421
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,400
it's us helping each other. And so that's really something that I am committed to.

422
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,760
Excellent. Well, that's going to wrap us up with another episode of the Real Estate Shop.

423
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,200
Catherine, thanks for stopping by and chopping it up with Curvin and I.

424
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,240
Really, really interesting stuff. And we look forward to following which of the next steps will be.

425
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,200
Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me.

426
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:52,160
Great. So that'll end the podcast. Really good stuff, Catherine. I mean, I really loved it.

427
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:57,040
You threw a name out there, Andy Altman, me and him with the middle school and filling together.

428
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:05,360
And I hadn't seen Andy in years. But. Yeah, he's developing. Oh gosh, right there on Rockville

429
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:11,280
Park, I've drawing a blank at the Strathmore Music Center. He's developing kind of an art-based

430
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:17,040
community out there and we finance their affordable housing. So they, they should be almost done now.

431
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,920
They had a big hole about a year ago. Wow.

432
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Yeah.

433
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,400
No, but I have to reconnect. I still get back to the DMV area. It's still

434
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,160
have a house and up a marble. So yeah, tracking folks down.

435
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:36,640
Oh, that's just so beautiful. That's so beautiful. I mean, there's so, there's so much going on in

436
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:42,720
the DMV. And so I will say I've stepped away for a year, but going back is going to be a thing to

437
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:46,720
see these properties coming out of the ground where I knew there was nothing.

438
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,360
Right, right. Absolutely.

439
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,280
From New Carrollton, you know, I said that was my, my metro station between Silversburg and

440
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,720
New Carrollton when I grew up. So to see, you know, what they're doing out there, it's, it's

441
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,680
going to be fabulous. Absolutely.

442
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,680
Yeah.

443
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,480
Gerv, do you have anything you want to wrap up with?

444
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,360
Yeah, I think the listeners are going to like your perspective on just mental health and

445
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:19,360
taking care of yourself to bring that self to conversations or whatever is in front of you.

446
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:25,120
I think that's going to land well because I know internally my office for the first time in my life,

447
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,280
you know, I've got folks asking for mental health days, right? Hey, I just need,

448
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,440
I just need to work from home for the next two days or just need any day off.

449
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:34,400
Yeah.

450
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,240
And like five years ago, I would never get those phone calls, a text message, right?

451
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:42,160
Just kind of like push through it. So that's starting to really change the office environment.

452
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:48,880
I think people, oh my gosh, the president of Essence, I love her. She came to Spelman.

453
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,720
And one of the things she said is she says she has care instructions.

454
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:57,280
I was like, yes, ma'am, please tell people about your care instructions.

455
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:04,480
She requires that she have at least two 15 minute breaks of silence every single day.

456
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:11,920
She requires that if she gets overstimulated and overwhelmed, that they will cancel her speaking

457
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:17,280
engagement. She comes with require meds, care instructions. And I was like, we need to normalize

458
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,920
this behavior because particularly because I'm an introverted black girl. And sometimes

459
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:28,800
when I don't talk or I just show up and I'm just awkward, so just awkward. People think I got an

460
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,800
attitude. And it's like, no, I'm just overstimulated.

461
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,480
No, for real. I mean, I think we're kind of all in that situation. I know I'm an introvert,

462
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,880
although it's hard to believe, because you look at social media, but sometimes I'll go out and

463
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:48,720
I'm perfectly fine being that guy in the corner just watching. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent.

464
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:51,520
Well, so when are you going to get back to the DMV?

465
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:59,600
I am. My mom is still there, so I will be there and bouncing around. I'm not committing to any

466
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:07,440
like one city. I hear you. I hear you. No, but DMV DC will always be home. It'll always be home.

467
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,920
Gotcha. Yeah. I'm sure we will run into you somewhere because you were out there.

468
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:19,680
So much for reaching out. This is such a pleasure. I can't tell you how much it means to me.