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This is the real estate shop where each episode will bring you a top industry expert to share their current programs or projects that are making an impact in our communities today.

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Be sure to check us out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

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Welcome to another episode of the real estate shop. We had the extreme pleasure of having Jackie West Spencer, Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of Prince George's County, RDA.

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Jackie, how are you doing today?

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Good morning. I'm doing great. It's great to be here.

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Absolutely. Just to kind of jump into it, you have an extensive professional background in housing and community development. Can you tell us about your background and lead us through your education years?

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Sure, sure. Well, thank you again. I have a master's degree in urban policy from the new school, and I have been working within this field for almost, I'm embarrassed to say, almost 30 years.

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And it's been a great opportunity. I first, you know, through my graduate school education through urban policy, one of my professors got back to me and said, hey, Jackie, you need to go into your community in Harlem and work for this organization called Abyssinian Development Corporation.

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And from there, I was exposed to community development and development at a local level in the mid 90s. And so seeing an organization such as Abyssinian and other faith-based organizations in Harlem, such as Harlem congregations for community improvement,

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that were really holding it down when these communities were being disinvested in. And I'm a Harlem girl. I should start to say that first and foremost, I'm a Harlem woman born and raised. I relocated down here 10 years ago.

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But Harlem in New York is where I've spent most of my career and opportunities. And so being able to be close to that community, to be able to be just blocks away from where I live, focusing on development opportunities and seeing it from a different perspective that I didn't know existed at that time,

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was an amazing experience. And from there, I worked for the New York City Housing Partnership, were facilitating one of their production programs. This was back in, again, the early mid 90s when Mayor Dinkins had created the Building Block Program.

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The Building Block Program was to look at the city's inventory. The city had begun to do its interim foreclosure since the 60s. Maybe it's actually the early 70s. And so what Mayor Dinkins tried to pull together was a comprehensive plan of how to put these properties back into occupancy,

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and how to put those vacant land or occupied properties. And so the programs that I've worked on during the course of my career as a lender, as an intermediary, as a developer, was in these programs where it was working with nonprofit developers to build a cluster of

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tax credit properties, but it was for community improvement, right? These were properties that landowners, landlords were burning down and thought that would, you know, New York would never come back to it's where it is now.

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And so working with nonprofit, for-profit, smaller MBE, smaller developers in New York, and then working with tenants who wanted to purchase their properties through the tenant and from lease program.

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So a very extensive career in some of the foundations of community development and real estate development and how public-private partnerships came together to really transform a community in a city such as New York.

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So that has been my background in development and community development.

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Now, a city, that was Reverend Adam Clayton Powell's church, right?

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That was. And so it was Dr. Butts.

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So Dr. Calvin Butts was the pastor at the time and, you know, great leadership.

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And Abyssinian Community Development Corporation was really ahead of its time in home ownership projects, in affordable housing development and looking at market rate development, in commercial development, seeing an old theater in Harlem right at the tip of the crown of the block that the church was on.

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And really coming up with a vision of how to transform this old theater into a community center for arts and culture.

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And so, you know, it was great to be around these organizations because they were committed to our communities.

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And that's something that was, I think, a very good, strong foundation for myself is understanding who we are doing this for and why.

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And us being part of the solution with the community and not for the community.

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So with that basis, you know, I think it was really important in understanding how I needed to be rooted in development.

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Nice. Nice. I love Harlem. We're working on the Apollo right now. We're doing a new market tax credits for them.

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Oh, that's great. That's great.

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One of my internships, or rather my capstone project at the new school was working with the Apollo Theater Foundation.

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Okay.

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When they were considering at that time, putting together album, a record label.

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It was fascinating.

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The things that you get into as a graduate student, like, you're doing a record label. You know, just understanding what artists get paid per album.

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Right. And understanding like, well, this culture, this industry seems very different.

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It's different than real estate development.

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Awesome. So before you went to the new school, did you know you want to get into community development or what, what pulled you towards that?

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Sure, sure. Now, I was a political science major and I actually came across a class where we were discussing environmental racism.

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And so out of that environmental racism and how growing up in Harlem, I grew up across from a dry cleaning factory.

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And so that factory closed and then turned into a school, which I thought was weird because, and this was an actual cleaning factory.

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So there were toxins and other things that are in.

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And how would they put a school in that location and it was within months that a school opened up in this factory.

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And, you know, again, coming from New York and the amount of pollution that was in the air also grew up right next to the Harlem River Drive.

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Literally my window face at the face the Harlem River Drive. I was always concerned about how, how we were looking at communities and and the environmental toxins were being overlooked.

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So that was like my first indication of environments racism, connecting it to urban policy is how I ended up at the new school, which was very, which was very interesting.

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So it was, it was a happenstance and then it happened that my professor told me to go work for this organization.

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Back in that day, in real estate development was not as we knew it.

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There were very few developers as we see development today that was happening within New York City. Again, you had community organizations that were trying to bring investment back into the communities back into the Bronx into the South Bronx back into

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East Harlem and West Harlem and Washington Heights. Those were communities that were disinvested. And so it was the community organizations that were also bringing in lists and enterprise as intermediaries to help support their initiatives and and to identify what the vision the long term vision could be for these communities.

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So it was very different back then. And so all I you know with that opportunity to know that real estate development existed.

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And a black girl in Harlem, I knew that I could be a teacher, a doctor, a social worker, or something else but development whether it's architecture, finance, or even a general contractor those were not concepts that I was aware of, or occupations that were in existence

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at that time.

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Wow. And at some point you decided to take the jump over to the DMV area and you start out with the community builders or TCB.

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Tell us about the various responsibilities you have with TCB.

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Sure. So when I came down to the Mid Atlantic region, I was a development director. So I was first covering Pennsylvania to North Carolina, which was so fascinating because when you're in one of the reasons why I left New York because it was very insular.

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It's great. It has great resources. It's amazing, but it is a New York way of doing things. And you don't realize the luxury of resources and the collaboration of partnerships that are long standing that don't exist outside of New York.

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And so it was an opportunity to do something different. Actually, I'll tell you what was the the the reason why I decided to leave.

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I ended my career in New York working for the New York City Housing Department of Housing Preservation and Development. So it's, you know, the city's housing agency.

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There were documents that were coming across my table where I had signed those documents in different forms of my life. So whether I was a vice president on the development side, or I was working for a finance institution.

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And I thought this, this can't be legal.

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And it was that that really said, you know, I need to have a different experience. And so coming to the community builders and having a diversity of states that we were working in, it's a large national nonprofit organization.

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They work in 15 states in the District of Columbia, they have a good exposure. And for me, working for a nonprofit organization is what I feel most comfortable with. I think that the missions are aligned and the focus in terms of being community focused is very much aligned.

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And so having the opportunity to work from Pennsylvania to North Carolina. This is how I met Steve throughout this process. It was very interesting, you know, it to understand the different capacities that the states and their localities are operating at to understand

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the limits in resources and where, you know, difference in developer fee, which is very different than New York, that it was a, it was a more challenging environment to operate within, but you have to be creative.

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The tools and the resources are out there, but you have to be creative. And so it was a great experience and then once we had another colleague that came on because I began to focus on Maryland and DC, because we had an intensive pipeline of projects within Maryland and DC.

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And which would, you know, take up, require more of my time and greater focus. It has been an interesting journey.

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I think when you think about when I started in this financing world interest rates were at 16%. There were such things as called live board caps, and most people probably don't even remember that.

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And so when you were doing participation loans with localities, but it might have been a million dollars, right. So the where you started from was very different.

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And to realize that now we are, yes, interest rates are going up 7%, you know, maybe we'll have some shifts in the market right now to bring that down.

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And the amount of resources that are in our industry, but it's still not enough is humbling. Right. So you're, you're, you're trying to, you know, with some people say you take a teaspoon in the ocean you're trying to, you know, get some water moving but it's like, are you making really any

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any in the challenges that are facing our communities. We have all these resources but it's still not enough. You know, and it is such a fascinating place to be Maryland has some great resources, but it also needs more.

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And so the locality has some great opportunities and some great work and some amazing initiatives, but more resources are needed. So how do you work strategically to use what you have to make some impact and being on a nonprofit developer being able to help facilitate

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the localities that we're working on within the District of Columbia, within the city of Baltimore in the city of Annapolis even in Prince George's County, trying to figure out how you can contribute in a meaningful way.

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It has been such an amazing accomplishment and a challenge right because whatever we've done as a collective is still not enough because we're not producing enough affordable housing units nationally, and in the state of Maryland so it's, it, you know, it has been a great career and a

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challenge and you know I'm just excited about being in Prince George's County and at the redevelopment authority and really trying to facilitate in a different way.

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Where deals getting done at 16% interest rates.

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They actually were. Yeah, they were. We can also think about construction costs were different. Right, so you may have had construction costs that were less than $100 per square foot.

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They were different, you know, also tax credit pricing was different those early tax credit projects their tax credit price was at 43 cents.

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But you also had foundations that were actively involved in trying to help contribute additional resources. So is, you know, but now we're in a in a different environment where everything is better but cost are up.

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And we still have organizations and foundations that are being supportive it's just it's a different set of circumstances but the need is even greater.

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So it's a wonderful project at tcb.

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The beacon center.

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This was an amazing collaboration with emory beacon of light and emory United Fellowship Church off of Georgia Avenue 6100 Georgia Avenue.

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It was an existing church.

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It has a great history, and it's important for civil war history it is right adjacent to Fort Stevens but it actually is Fort Massachusetts.

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And so it has historical value. It was previously owned by a black woman, an African American woman.

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They took it from her to build Fort Massachusetts.

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And, you know, it was promised that she would get that property back after the Civil War. Once Lincoln was shot that that was no longer honored.

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So what was built on it was a church. And so you have this amazing historic church that has its roots in the Civil War but think about it African American woman a black woman owned this land.

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And so it has such a living history for the community and and every reason African American church and so there's such a rich history that their vision was how can we contribute this this land back to the community.

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How can we create a multi purpose facility which includes a church. It includes outreach centers for immigration. It includes a food pantry and build housing wrapped around it so it was over 120,000 square feet of an integrated complex that was serving all of those purposes and all of those

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buildings and a but Fort Stevens, and it was the first project that I was working on coming down here. And it was the first time I had to face Civil War challenges.

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So the NIMBYs were the Civil War that this was historical. The site was historical for the Civil War, but there was this woman who got up in during the land use hearing and said, but the history and its importance is for the future.

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And so we commemorate it for the past but it needs to be part of our living history. And so it should be used to address the needs of the community. And that was a labor of love before I was involved or the community builders were involved.

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And so we were working on the NIMBY beacon of light and the church and Reverend Dr. Joseph Daniels. That was his vision. And before we were in it, they were working on it for seven years, seven years, visioning and planning and figuring out how to make this work and and who are the right

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to the financial capacity, who has a development capacity to advance their vision and the fact that we were able to come in. We added some new market tax credits to the project because we were we are or they are the CDFI.

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So to be able to bring resources to the project and contribute it and ensure that that project got done. It was amazing. I think, you know, being able to identify who you are as a partner and what you can contribute in a meaningful way and ensure that your missions are

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online, I think was the greatest contribution that we can, we could bring to that partnership and then bring along our development and financial experience to ensure that it was completed. So it was done. It was a complicated project when you're building the existing structure

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and to expand it, the historical church and built the housing around it with two levels of underground parking. I've never seen anything like that and just think about, you know, just the amount of dirt.

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So if you if you're going up Georgia Avenue, it's at the top of the hill, it's across from the antenna. That's by the Walmart. And so to think about the amount of excavation and I just, wow, I just think about the bills.

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I'm thinking about what that capital stack must have looked like. I was very complicated. It was everybody putting in a little bit something, you know, the great thing that the District of Columbia does have resources right so where they, and I think that was crucial to the

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success of that project. They may not have an allocation of low income housing tax credits on the competitive side for 9%. But that's why, you know, in their given their population of 4% as of right and some additional, you know, higher levels of soft subsidy is really important for

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that project so that was 99 units of housing and the district contributed about 17 point over $1718 million to that project and financing in order to make that project work which is which is amazing and it's needed.

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And that's the level of contribution that really is needed by in order to sustain this level of development throughout the country.

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Absolutely. So when did you transition from TCB to RDA.

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Well, last year surround September, October of 2023. So after about 10 years with the community builders, I transitioned over to the RDA.

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Yeah.

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And not too many people may be familiar with Prince George's County you might give some an overview of that demographic.

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Absolutely.

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So Prince George's County is 498 square miles. It is adjacent to the District of Columbia and Montgomery County and Prince George's County is very unique because it's urban suburban and rule, you know, very similar to what mostly the the beltway

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communities are in between Baltimore DC you have such a very different type of demographic.

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So a very strong population in terms of diversity, a strong African American population as well.

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And a lot of the focus in Prince George's County under the leadership of our County Executive Angela also Brooks has really been on transit oriented development and really looking at the county's assets and how we can bring some density and a mix of uses to the

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county to really look at some strategic economic goals for the county. I think when you look at DC.

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In terms of economic development that has been the focal point. And then you look at Montgomery County to the West Prince George's County is strategically positioned and has a significant amount of resources that have not been tapped at the same level.

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And so being able to invest in our commercial corridors and our transit oriented develop corridors has really been the focus of an economic development objective of the county and the county executive to increase the tax base to increase the population.

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You know the population has been pretty at level over the last several years and so wanting to create some new opportunities to bring people back into the county has been a major focus so it's a very diverse community.

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Very diverse community has strong strong middle class communities and neighborhoods, such as upper Marlboro where you are now Steve, you know, that used to be the county's seat, and where the, the most of our county activities have been in upper Marlboro and now we're in Largo.

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So the focus really is to create some diversity and to bring people into the community and create some economic development opportunities to increase the tax base. So that's, you know, in a nutshell what Prince George's County is but also what some of the focus has been over the last several years.

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Got it.

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So, specifically with the RDA. What's the mission of the RDA and then how does that translate to your day to day activities.

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Sure, sure. Well, we are the real estate development engine of the of the county and so we're strategically placed and positioned and tasked with revitalizing developing to ignite development in blighted communities that's the official term I hate the word blighted right because it just means that they just need

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to have a good activity. And so our focus is around development and disposition. You know so it could be acquisition of properties and and partnering with developers in order to transform those project into mixed income mixed use commercial home ownership rental projects that are really benefiting

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from the income, the tax base for the county, and also something that's new as of last year is that the redevelopment authority will also be the disposition agency.

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Previously, the Office of Central Services was responsible for the disposition of surplus property. And so that has moved to the RDA where we are the development and disposition agency.

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And it allows us to look at development from a holistic standpoint through an economic development lens around job creation, creating housing and increasing the tax base that we can do it in a very holistic standpoint and then look to, you know, potentially

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some programs that we did in New York, disposition programs production pipelines, how do we be more methodical about infill development and development opportunities so that we can complete communities, a significant investment by the county and the RDA has been

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working on the blue line corridor. We have a couple of different development projects with different developers that we've been working on at the metro stations.

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And when you look at the blue line corridor that is that is coming directly out of DC, going up and along Morgan Boulevard and Largo which leads to where most of the county activities are.

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And so we're looking at a very strategic corridor and looking at it not just from a larger development but from infill development standpoint maybe there's opportunities that we can create programs for smaller nonprofits or MBE developers to begin to fill in as we move up to Largo

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stations so by us being able to facilitate that, you know, we're looking at it from a development opportunity perspective, and also from a community development standpoint, which I think is great so that's the focus of the RDA.

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It's a great opportunity and some great challenges but very much excited to be a part of this.

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As a developer, how do I partner with the RDA? Do you have any incentives or anything like that?

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Sure, sure.

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Sure. Well, we have RFPs that we issue where we are looking for development partners and folks should look at some solicitations that we're going to be having coming out in the next several months.

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We've been talking about a solicitation for hotel and retail space in our Suitland development.

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Suitland actually was the founding project of the redevelopment authority. It was the reason why the RDA was created was to facilitate the development of a community in Suitland that was, you know, just a mile from the DC line coming out of southeast.

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And unfortunately, it was just a place where a lot of bad things were happening. And so the county invested time to acquire over 200 privately owned parcels and work to relocate over 600 families to say, you know, we, since this is, this is the anchor project when you come out of DC at this point in southeast,

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we need to create what this looks like. It is adjacent to a federal, our federal center, which has a census bureau, and it will have labor and statistics and so it's, it's right adjacent to an economic anchor as well.

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And so the RDA was was founded to transform this community to date. There's 240 town homes that have been built and this future development for multifamily and retail activities that are planned actually within next year or two.

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So that's one way that developers can partner with us. We also have potential solicitations and opportunities to acquire properties through our surplus disposition process.

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On the development side, our partners are in the Department of Housing and Community Development. They have, they will partner with us and partner with developers to provide pilots to provide subsidy and subordinate financing to the county.

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There's also ways that we can request waivers for certain types of fees, particularly within our in a beltway communities.

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We try to pull together everything I may not have or the RDA may not have all the resources, but we're contributing what we do control and that's land, and that is, you know, an invaluable resource, and we partner with our sister agencies to pull together as many resources

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as we as we can.

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Wow. And then you distribute those through RFPs I guess for the surplus land.

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Yes, yes, yes. So, as we look at this, the surplus list, there, there also is an opportunity if developers or owners or folks who are interested in acquiring property, see something on the county inventory list that they can go, they can look at that and they can

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see something that they're interested in acquiring.

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Okay, that's excellent. And this broadly speaking, what are some of the past and current projects at the RDA and what role that RDA played to facilitating you mentioned that you kind of partner with some of these other agencies to allocate resources.

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Sure.

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So, the example that I mentioned just in terms of the founding project, the Suitland Development. That is a project where the RDA was the lead developer, we did partner with other development consultants to help facilitate the infrastructure and land development

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activities so that the vertical development could be engaged with other developers. So that's something that you know that's one model that we've employed but then we also have projects that actively we're in the pipeline our Chevrolet hospital development.

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That's a larger project with Urban Atlantic, Home Team Five.

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And that is close of you when you're driving up and down the BW Parkway, you'll see the highest point on the parkway is actually the Chevrolet hospital. And that has been closed for a number of years and will be the future development of over 1300 residential units and a

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significant amount of retail space, which is going to be amazing. So that's going to activate that project. We are the owner of that site.

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And we are facilitating the development and the facilitating the resources that have been provided to that project, not only from the county but actually from the state.

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You know, so there's been a great partnership with the state on our projects not only through subordinate financing opportunities but helping to fund infrastructure and some improvements on the blue line corridor.

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And there's a couple of projects that we've been working on with development partners at Addison Road at the Addison Road station at the capital height station. These are MBE developers that have been working on these projects and we're helping to support them on the

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entitlement work but we're the owners of the property.

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And we're slowly go to the property and still facilitating to ensure that whatever's agreed upon as the goal and purpose of this project that would be developed in in the manner that it was solicited for so there's many different ways that the RDA partners

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but we, you know, we do have some active. We have over 2900 units in our pipeline of active projects and it's a variety it's working.

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All of them are working in partnership with developers.

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Do you have a MBE requirement or goal?

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Sure. No, we actually are adhered to the county's MBE goals.

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I can get back to you on what the specifics of those are,

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but looking up the county goals is what the RDA is doing.

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We're sure that we are ensuring that

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each development team has real equity participation by MBEs.

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Not just on paper,

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and as well as when we're looking at the contractor and supplier hiring goals,

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in terms of local hiring and engagement of subcontractors,

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that those are also meaningful.

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Again, it's not on paper.

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These are substantial goals that we want to make sure that we're in line with for the county's purposes.

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As the executive director, what's your vision for the RDA?

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What would you like to see as you install your legacy of leadership?

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I think I would like to be able to,

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my vision, my grand vision,

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and this is coming out of nonprofit development world,

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is for the RDA to be the partner of choice,

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that we're not just limiting ourselves to county-owned land or partnering with developers directly,

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but we can also partner with municipalities.

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There are numerous localities within Prince George's County that all have visions of how they would like to

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facilitate real estate development opportunities,

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economic development opportunities within their communities,

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but may not have the means and the methods and the opportunity.

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And being able to leverage the resources at the RDA to help facilitate that,

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I think is an amazing use of our resources.

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Instead of just focusing on our little box, right,

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the box is 498 square miles.

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And within that, there's so much opportunity to rejuvenate, to revitalize,

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to work with our community to really bring investment,

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continued investment into Prince George's County.

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And so being that partner of choice,

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being the persons that are the entity that you can problem solve,

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and that can also leverage resources and work with our sister agencies,

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whether it's DHCD on the funding,

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whether it's DPI and park and planning on the permitting and use and zoning,

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how do we leverage this experience and this expertise and this capability

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to continue to reinvest and develop throughout Prince George's County

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and restore jobs and bring economic vitality into the county,

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I think is what we could be useful.

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And being able to not get caught up in, this is just our lane,

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our lane is real estate development.

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That's grand, right?

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I'm not going to put limits on that unless somebody else tells me to put limits on it.

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I'll tell you this, I'm not going to build any of the data centers.

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That would be for EDC and for others on the economic development side.

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But if it includes housing opportunities and a vision around that,

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let us help in the visioning and let us be a resource.

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Yeah, you're right. I would actually love to see that.

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So many unincorporated, incorporated folks from outside,

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look at Prince George's County and just can't figure it out.

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Like, well, Buie's incorporated, but this is not politics.

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But think about it, we're real estate developers.

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How long did it take us to figure it out?

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Right, right, right.

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And so, you know, when folks have the want and they have a vision,

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why do we think that they would know how to execute?

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Because that's just not their air of expertise,

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but that we need their vision, right?

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But to be able to connect them to folks who can execute on that vision,

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I think is such an amazing collaboration.

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Yeah, that is excellent.

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So one of the questions we always touch base with on our guest on the show

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is work-life balance.

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It's something that's relative difference from individual to individual.

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What does work-life balance look like for you?

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I'm still trying to figure that out.

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That's a great question.

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You know, it is, it has been something that I have struggled with

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throughout my career, you know, and being a mother,

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trying to figure out that work-life balance when you have young kids

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and as they get older and what does that freedom and opportunity look like.

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I think it is something that I appreciate from this younger generation

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that there seems to be greater work-life balance than folks in my generation.

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And so being able to identify, you know, what the work that we're doing is very important.

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The work that we're doing is crucial to contributing to addressing some of the ills

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and challenges that face our communities.

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But we do have to find a balance.

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You know, interest rates will always go up or down.

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Construction costs will always go up or down.

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Communities will always either like your project or not.

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So understanding that that's always going to be the ebbs and flows of your project

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that you have to be able to say, you know what,

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I'm going to put some boundaries on where that begins and ends

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and creating that balance so I can have peace of mind

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and enjoy whatever it is that I enjoy outside of this work.

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And so I think that is something that's important,

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that we all have to find what is appropriate for us.

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And it is one of those things that I'm, it's an ongoing,

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it's an ongoing solution that I'm working on.

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Process.

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Process.

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That's right.

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I'm going process.

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Is how you spend your time now, network, you know, networking with others different.

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Now that you switch from TCB to RDA.

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Right.

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It's always different when you begging for money and or begging for work.

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And then you, you are the person that is trying to figure out how to, you know,

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put work out there.

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Right.

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So it is, it's a different level of engagement and, you know,

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being new to an organization and creating systems and structures.

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My networking may not be at this point in my career as aggressive as it could be,

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but it's the relationships that I've built over these years

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that have been helpful as part of this transition.

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And so, you know, being able to look at our businesses about relationships,

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good, bad, or indifferent and being able to manage those relationships

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and to have workable outcomes and maintaining those relationships.

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I think is very important no matter where you are within your career.

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So networking is important if you can make it happen,

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but manage and value the relationships that you currently have

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because those will last and help you when you're doing these transitions.

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Absolutely.

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And that kind of ties into the last question,

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except you might want to expand them a little bit.

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So what advice would you give to current students or young professionals

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starting out in their careers if you were to actually start over again?

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Sure, sure.

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Well, you know what? I can honestly say that I was blessed at a time in my career

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that we were figuring things out.

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And so being able to be involved in everything and all aspects of my projects

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was very important.

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But I think that is something that's the advice that I have for when I talk to my project associates

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or folks who, you know, younger generation folks who wanted to work with me

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in different capacities and so forth is to not be afraid to do,

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I guess, what folks call grunt work, right?

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And, you know, doing the tough stuff, getting out of a spreadsheet, right?

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Real estate development is not looking just making sure my source is in use is balanced.

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There's people, there's communities, there's relationships behind those spreadsheets.

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And being unafraid to go in front of a community meeting

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and to take the heat and to learn how to manage those type of environments was a skill set,

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was something that I had to do because there was nobody else that was doing it.

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Being able to, I know this may sound stupid, but, you know, processing a requisition,

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understanding how everything is done from soup to nuts and me personally understanding how to do it

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gave me valuable information about how to do it better.

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So, you know, being unafraid, being unafraid to say, you know, I'd like to do more.

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I'd like to be more engaged. I'd like to be out in the front, allow me to have this project and

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this task. That is how I was able to have the opportunities that I did.

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Believe it or not, I coined myself as an intern as an assistant project manager

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and then I developed my own 12-unit building.

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Back then, I did my own, and we did housing inspections for any of our tenants back then.

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So, I went all around New York City, inspecting the units of folks who are going to be my perspective tenants.

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Wow.

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It was different. It was just different back then, right?

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And so being unafraid to do the tough stuff and everything is just not glamorous, right?

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Project management and real estate development is task oriented. It's administrative work.

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Yes, it's about applications and financing and so forth, but there's so much more to it.

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So, being unafraid to do stuff that may be uncomfortable, but it advances your skill set.

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I'm not asking anyone to do anything that I haven't done or am unwilling to do myself.

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So, the expectation is that you should be willing to do the same thing.

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That's excellent. Excellent advice there. Folks get trapped into, I don't know how many

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folks I work with that live behind spreadsheets and that's their life.

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Right, dude. First of all, I have to go to Chris Cross.

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You don't know how real that information is, right? Unless you're out there,

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you can look at OPEX and say my OPEX has to be X.

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But until you're out and realize, wow, my OPEX can never be that. So, how do I look at this?

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And maybe I build a larger operating reserve to help offset what may be a future challenge, right?

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You have to understand what those numbers are. It's very interesting, but it's always sexy to

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be in a spreadsheet. For sure, for sure. But our work is beyond sexy. It can be sexy if you

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choose it to be that way, but it is so much more. Yeah, I've got to tell you. Well, for

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community development, if it's affordable housing or anything like that, you really

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have to have that kind of mission in your heart because the work is just too hard.

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It takes too long to get done. You'll get beaten down and you get burned out.

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It's true. And part of going back to your earlier question about work-life balance,

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because of that, you have to also be unafraid when you need to move on

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from a position or move on from experience because you felt beat down or you feel tired.

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I think we're seeing more of that now in our communities where the nimbyism is difficult.

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It's hard. Before you could latch on to people that were supportive and genuinely supportive

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and really wanted to see their neighbors prosper and their neighbors to be in better

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living conditions. And some of the challenges that I faced that I got exhausted by was

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that there were some neighbors that didn't want that. Right. And that is when you're

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facing a very different dynamic. Sure, absolutely. Hey, well, Jack, we certainly

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appreciate your time. That'll definitely wrap us up. Once again, thank you for stopping by

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and just chopping it up with us at the real estate shop. We'll definitely keep track with you.

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I appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity and you guys are doing great work. So continue

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and lead on. I hear you. I hear you.