This is the real estate shop where each episode will bring you a top industry expert to share their
current programs or projects that are making an impact in our communities today. Be sure to check
us out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Welcome to another episode of the real estate shop.
We had extreme pleasure having Ashley Wicks, attorney and nationally recognized expert
in new market tax credits stopped by the shop. Ashley, how are you doing today?
I'm doing pretty good.
We're going to jump right in. So your professional background is off the charts from what we can
see. Can you tell us about your background and lead us through your education years through law school?
So I am a graduate of the Jackson State University. You may have seen the sonic boom on the South
during the halftime show. Absolutely. And this is Vogue. I have a bachelor's of business administration
and accounting. I also have a master's in professional accounting from the Jackson State
University. And then I went to law school at Tulane Law in New Orleans. So tomorrow's
Madagra. So happy Madagra. And then while working, I got a LLM in taxation from the
University of Alabama School of Law. Got it. Awesome. I see from your LinkedIn profile,
you're involved in a lot of different organizations. Alpha Kappa Alpha is one of them.
But National Black Association of Black Accountants, another. How do you choose some of these
organizations that you're a part of? And how do they help you with the work that you do?
Well, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated, I was initiated and undergrad at Jackson State.
And I've been a member 25 years this year. So that's kind of an organization that has,
I started an undergraduate as an undergraduate and I've kind of grown within the organization.
Some organizations, I think it's important, they have a lifespan. You might be very active in them
for a little while and then you move on to something else. I'm a member of the Junior
League of Jackson. I was very active for a period of time. And that's a part of their process. And
then you kind of go into a sustainer mode. I try to be a part of things that mean something to me
and that I would want to be engaged in. I try to be involved in organizations that mentor and help
people in disadvantaged communities, people that look like me, just to give them an opportunity
to engage and do things to help better their communities.
I had a mentor. I once asked them before, I was taking on a different path in terms of my career.
How do you choose the nonprofits that you're a part of from a board leadership perspective?
And he's like, don't overthink it, man. Just follow your heart, follow organizations that
align with what you like to do. And it's important to say no sometime because you only have
so much extra time, right? And if it's not an organization that moves something
within you or something you feel passionate about, it'll become more of a chore to participate
in something you're excited about, something you want to see move forward, and something that
energizes you because we need things that remind us of why we are doing the things that we're doing.
Okay. Yeah. So if you go back, what was your first professional job? And was that before,
after, became a licensed attorney? So my first professional job would be with the Witt
Sullivan. It was probably in high school, the Witt Sullivan. When I was in high school,
I thought I wanted to be a doctor. And I was in this program called Base Pairs, which was intended
to expose individuals to the medical career. My teacher at the time had someone to come in and
talk about finances and financial planning. And I was interested in the things that he was talking
about. So I decided to pivot and do something different because my interest was more, it interests
me of how people make money. When people are telling me that they're an entrepreneur and
the things that they want to do, how they make money. So my first real professional job came out
of that with an accountant. His name was Duit Sullivan. He sits past. He had his own CPA firm.
And I mean, he would give me tasks to do as a high school student. And I learned some valuable
lessons like, it's okay to fire your client because sometimes you and your client are not on the same
page. That's not a common practice, but sometimes it's best for your client to go in a different
direction. So I learned a lot from Mr. Sullivan. And you're touching on a couple key things I think
a lot of people think about. When a fire client or no one, it's not a good fit. Because not every
client is a good client. Not every vendor is a good vendor. But you also hit on a point earlier,
you said it's important to say no. And so there's a pattern. They're like, how did you, how are you
overcoming those things you just talked about? Well, one, I think with clients, we work long
hours and you want to help them succeed. You want to help them do their best or get whatever their
goal is, achieve their goal. And if you, and it's not necessarily, because not all clients listen to
my advice, right? But it's, if your personality doesn't necessarily mess with the client or if the
client, you know, if you're not moving in the same direction as the client, then it may be
for the best interests of the client, because you want them to achieve their goal, they find
somebody else more suited to their, to, for their needs. Now, it's not something I commonly do,
but it's something I understand and appreciate because ultimately I want to see whether you're
with me or with somebody else. I want to see you achieve whatever goal is that you set out to do.
And I may not be the right person for you. And I'm not, you know, I'm not going to compromise
things that the quality of work, I'm not going to compromise my morals and my ethics to accommodate
your situation. So it's not all of it's bad. Some of it may be, you know, personality, you may need
a different type of personality. And sometimes for clients, I am an African American woman,
sometimes they have hard time taking advice from me. And so I realized that
otherwise I think my advice is good advice. You know, if that's what you need to move your
business for, then then move your business forward in that direction. Seeing no, I wish I had a magic
answer, but I think one, you got to trust your gut, right? Like if somebody calls and asks me to
serve on the board and they're telling me what the board is about, and I'm thinking about the,
the, the, the board, like, for example, there was a board that I started on for like two or three
years. I wasn't excited about, they have a wonderful mission and I financially support them, right?
But I wasn't overly excited about going to the board meetings. I wasn't overly excited about
participating in the extra activities that you have to do as a board member. I believed in a
mission. I think their mission is important. I think they serve a great purpose, but it wasn't
something that excited me. So I still support them. I'll make donations to them financially,
but that's not how I wanted to spend my time. I know we're going to get into some more technical
pieces of our conversation, but how did you matriculate through Butler Snow?
So before I worked at Butler Snow, I worked at a firm called Watkins-Lowland Winner and Stennis,
which is a, is also a Mississippi based firm. And I worked there with my mentor Alvino Castella,
who retired at the end of last year. And so when Watkins-Lowland was acquired by Jones-Walker,
we just, he decided to switch firms and I decided that I wanted to go with him to Butler Snow.
I started off here as an associate and then I moved up to become a partner.
Excellent. So under the topic that we're covering today, it's new to some of our folks. We've talked
a little bit about tax credits on some of our prior episodes, but in the tax credit world,
there's really a trifecta of financing vehicles. We have a low income housing tax credit,
historic tax credit, and of course, the new market tax credits. So for the benefited audience,
can you give us a brief overview of the new market tax credit, the financing vehicle,
and how you acquired that expertise? Okay. So new market tax credits is authorized by Congress,
like Historic and LIHTEC. It is not a permanent program yet, but hopefully it will become permanent.
But what is intended to provide subsidy to more projects that are more commercial in nature.
So unlike Historic, it doesn't have to, the project can be a new construction, doesn't
necessarily have to be a historic district. Unlike LIHTEC, its focus is not just to provide
housing. You can use new markets for a mixed use building, but you can't use it for like
an apartment complex that's predominantly residential in nature. It's intended to have
a commercial bent to it. You can use it to finance real estate, you can use it to finance operating
business, work provide, work in capital to your business. The process itself can be,
it can be overwhelming because it can be a lot, right? It operates a little bit different than
than the other types of tax credits. But ultimately to your project, it could bring about 15 to 20%
subsidy to your project. And unlike other subsidies, it comes in at closing. So the equity comes in
at closing. There is a seven year compliance period for it. It can be used to finance anything
from medical facilities, mixed use facilities. It could provide a work in capital to a project,
manufacturing facilities. I'm trying to think of something that I have going on now. A lot of
colleges and universities use them, HBCUs have used them. It can finance, let's say,
manufacturing facilities, tech workforce development type facilities, charter schools.
There's a plethora of things that it could be used for. The key is that the project has to be
located in a low income community. And that's based on census information. And there are different
websites that you can go to put your address in and see if your project qualifies for new
market tax credits. It doesn't matter if it's a public university or private? No. So with respect
to public universities, it's usually done through their foundation as opposed to the university
itself. So it's usually because the project borrower has to be a corporation or partnership.
So it's usually done through one of their foundations that's supportive of the
university's mission, but may not be the university itself. What side do you typically
represent? The investor, developer, or CDE? So I represent all of the above, but probably most
frequently, I'm a quality council, which is the project borrower and then probably CDE council
and then investors council. Well, I was going to say, the quality council role of the project
borrower is probably, all of them are rewarding, but you get into a little bit more of the weeds
and you get a little bit more invested in the project to see the success of the project.
And you tend to, like I have, maybe two years ago, I closed for in Detroit, the community was the
food desert and they needed a grocery store. So I worked on the finance and program, a project
called Detroit Food Commons. And it's knowing that, you know, a project you worked on is going to
provide food to this community once it's up and running. It was a real estate based project,
but it was a cool project. And then, like this past December, and I'm just talking about on the
quality side, we took a old, and this is in Memphis Tennessee, we took a old high school
called Northside High School. It's gotten a lot of publicity in the Memphis area and they're
rehabbing it so that it has new uses and it can, it can, it'll have medical facilities, coffee
shops, it'll have a lot of different things that that community needs and it could be a
catalyst for other development in that area. That's awesome. Is there a minimum job creation
requirement? You know, with EB-5, I think it's with 10 jobs, something. So there is no quote
unquote minimum because the way the program is deployed is done through these entities called
community development entities and the community development entities apply for allocation
from the federal government. And in their allocation agreements, they make certain
commitments like I'm going to create so many jobs or you give us this allocation, I'm going to do
all these great things and sometimes they'll have like community, they'll have benchmarks that they
say that they're going to do and so some CDEs are focused on job creations. You have some CDEs that
are focused on environmental issues. So CD, it depends on the CDEs and what commitments they
may that they made to the federal government. Got it. And just, and just for reference because I
know some people may not be familiar with new markets, the CDEs are the vehicles that, that,
that deploy this allocation. And if you are a project, what you do is you apply to the CDEs
and say, hey, I have this great project, my project is ready to go, it's located in a low-income
community, it's going to have all of these great community benefits. Can you commit a portion
of your allocation to me? And if they say yes and the financing begins, then you have an obligation
to tell them once the project is up and running about those community benefits. Got it. So I know
you gave some high-level examples of the type of stuff you did. And it's interesting that I know
you're a Jackson, Mississippi-based law firm, but it sounds like you work all over the country.
How does that work? How do you attract clients? I mean, obviously you have a name at this point,
everybody knows you're nationally recognized, but what is that the generation business development
aspect look like for you or does their in-house person who goes out and get business for butlers?
No. No, it's me. So it looks like different things. This is the relationship business,
this is me finding projects, this is me participating in podcasts like this, this is me
speaking on panels, this is me my willingness to do webinars, to sit down and have conversations
and talk about new market-task credits. It's a lot of it as far as doing business is working
with consultants. There are consultants in this space. If you are a project and you're looking
for allocation that can help you and connect you with CDEs, connect you with investors,
having relationships with those consultants. Part of it is doing a really good job for your client,
making sure that your client is satisfied. So when they, you know, one, they don't, after they go
through the process, they don't hate the program. And then two, knowing that you did a really good
job for them. You really are, I guess, a partner and want to see that their project succeeds.
And when you do a really good job for your client, sometimes, you know, they'll tell other people
what we use, this is who we use, this is who we've done. And just being willing and open to have
conversations, you know, a lot of people have projects, right? And we all know from the development
side, maybe 20% of them are real projects. But sometimes having a conversation that happens
somebody think through what are my next steps, what do I need to do, where should I be,
that can sometimes lead to business development, always being kind of, you know, being open for
that type of exchange. And then the coolest thing to think about new markets and new markets for me
as a practice is the fact that I get to do stuff all over. Like I close a deal in Minnesota, I have
a deal that one of my deals that's closing right now is this active is in North Carolina. And then
I last week I closed a deal in New York. So like being able to do things all over is good. I mean,
it's cool. And then I should interject. Actually, that was LinkedIn contacts. I know we're going to
talk about the relationships in a minute, but start out LinkedIn contacts. You know, I never
ever thought I was going to be in Mississippi at all. I was like kind of still shocked, you know,
from the 1960 stuff that I saw, had an opportunity to go there and reached out to her already knew
she was the AKA, you know, I was out with and actually had coffee. So, boom, here we are today.
So it's just never know. It's about being open, right? Like just being open and you never know
who's going to lead you your next business opportunity. So,
as you mentioned, you have a deal in Minneapolis, Minnesota. You got a deal in New York. Did that
come up because of this speaking public speaking that you do at conferences or
or how did that even happen being in the South? So some of it is like I said, this is consultant
Jordan. So I have a relationship with the consultant and he likes working with me and I like
working with him and his team. So some of it is being open to that. And our relationship goes back
probably we've known each other for probably about 12 years. So it goes back away, right?
So sometimes it's cultivating and over time, meeting people at the conferences, being open to
like zoom and and the busy you get is harder. Like, you know, managing my schedule. It feels like
and I feel bad about pushing people off on the have you want to schedule it with my assistant,
but she's she's keeping me on task and making sure but I also want to be available. Like I want to
talk to you if you have something I want to have a conversation with you. But she also knows that I
have documents to read, working group conferences to participate. So it's about being open to that.
And then my LinkedIn, like I'm constantly updating, I'm constantly talking about the projects that
that I've had the opportunity to work on. And speaking on panels and talking about talking
about some of the hard conversations, like if you are, you know, it's Black History Month, if you're
doing a black project, you know, you're going to have some different sets of challenges. And it's
not it's not, you know, because there are some some issues that those projects have is that it's,
for example, sometimes getting a fair praisel is challenging, right? You'll read a repraiser
report and you're like, did you even go to my project? Did you even see my project? And fully
understanding the importance of having getting ahead of the appraisal. Understanding that
you know, there are things that are, you know, there's, you know, racism in our society, and
institutional racism in our society. So there's a level of distrust there, getting them comfortable
with this is how this works. This is really how it works. And this is why in answering the question
of why, like sometimes people try to push projects or decisions on clients and not tell them why.
So my goal is if you know, if you, I tell them if you have a question about something, you're going
to be signing this document, you're going to be in this marriage for seven years, at least,
you know, if you have some questions and you need to understand the why, and it's my job to get you
comfortable by explaining to you why it's there.
What point do you decide, you know what, I need to be on a panel. I need to be at this new market
task credit discussion, but I need to be on the stage as you're crafting a marketing plan. What
led you to that decision? Okay, so it's not crafted. So I'll be honest, the first time I did a new
market task credit panel, I was just all right, right? Because I wasn't comfortable necessarily
in this space, right? I worked on deals. I've been pushing documents. And I just hadn't,
I guess, gotten my high health, getting used to my high heel shoes, right? And then it, the more,
you know, I started taking the lead on my projects and realizing, you know, I know this stuff,
right? I know, I know what I'm doing. I know the answers to provide to my clients.
I have a different perspective to offer than some of my colleagues. I don't, now I can talk to you
about section 45D, but I don't talk, when I'm talking to a layperson, I'm not talking about 45D.
I'm talking to you in terms of something that you can understand and you can grasp and maybe
associate it with something that you're familiar with. So there was no plan. I did realize that,
as a lawyer, like my LinkedIn profile, that it was important that I develop my brand. I have a brand
and that I protect my brand, right? I did also, when the opportunities presented themselves to
speak. And like I said, the first time I wasn't comfortable. So it took a couple of times doing
it over and over. I did a couple of webinars. And the first time that I think I really felt comfortable
was doing it, doing the Novogradic basics as a webinar, right, during the pandemic. And it was
because I don't know if I was at my house or what, but it, it, it, it, it was kind of like, okay,
this could be fun, right? And then the other piece to it is, I think, again,
understanding that, you know, most people of color have some, suffer from some of the imposter
syndrome, realizing I'm not an imposter. I am who I am, right? And bringing my authentic self. So that
meant at a, during a webinar, cracking jokes, talking about the Jackson State University,
which is the best HBCU ever, or just being who I am. And, you know, and understanding that, you
know, I'm a good lawyer, I'm a great lawyer. And I'm, for some, I'm, you know, I'm a right fit,
I'm a good fit for others, I may not be. But, you know, I'll, for those clients that I am a right
fit, I'm going to do my best to give them the best service. Yeah, that's excellent stuff. So you
talked a little bit about being involved with, without the cap alpha, and we're all D9 members here.
Currently, what other type of associations are you involved with? If any, are there any boards
that you're, you're on currently or? I am a member of the Jackson State University Development
Foundation, which is our, I'm a new member. This is my first year. And I'm really excited about
that. I'm really excited about the, the, the direction that the, that the board is headed in.
I'm really excited about the support that they're giving the university. I'm excited about
we're transitioning and modernizing and it's, there are great things going on. And we're
totally in support of the university, which is exciting. I'm a member of the, the Women's Foundation
for Mississippi, which is a great organization to help women. Although it's not
a nonprofit yet, one of my passions over the last maybe year, year and a half,
is helping establish the Mississippi after school network. I believe the education is
important. I believe children having access to education early on starts their trajectory,
their life trajectory, right? And so the goal of the network, which I'm chairing their leadership
team, just taking up most of my extra time. And it's, and it's something like I said,
told you earlier, something that I don't mind having a conversation with. I don't mind
going to the meetings. I don't mind thinking through their issues because it's, I know that
once I leave this earth, once the network is up, it'll be helping kids for years to come and
their providers. So we're working to, it actually started from a provider and now it's separating
and it's forming its own, hopefully its own separate nonprofit entity and then it'll continue to grow
and help providers throughout the state of Mississippi. Those are, I'm trying to think,
is there anything else I've committed to recently? No, that's, I think that's it. I try, although
I get asked to do stuff a lot, I try to keep it in a way that it's manageable. I still have
my free time, right? So, you know, when somebody asks me to do something, my first question is,
how much time are we talking? Are we talking monthly meetings? Are we talking quarterly
meetings? Are we talking annual meetings? And then what, what, what, why are you asking me to do
this, right? So are you expecting me to be super active? Does it have its own staff? Those are just
some of the questions I asked to kind of figure out if it's the right fit for me,
my, for my personal life and for my professional life, because I don't want to compromise any of
that in this forsaken board service. Now, that's, that's reality, right? That's good feedback to
just helping our audience think through like how you volunteer your work and life year in and year
out. I see you're getting awards, best lawyer in America, you know, during a day time in the
evening, you're saving, you're solving all the world's problems. It seems like with a non-profit
engagement. But what is Ashley Wicks like? What do you enjoy to do as a person? How do you balance
for an artist? So, I enjoy hanging with my family and my friends. I enjoy, I enjoy Jackson State
football. So I'm a season ticket holder. So during football season, I will be, they have a home game,
I'm there. I enjoy spending, a lot of time spending time with my family and my friends.
I like to travel for pleasure, not necessarily for work. Those are two different things.
I like, last year, my sister, we were laughing because we call it the year of concerts because
we went to see, I saw Usher in Vegas. I saw Eric Abadou. I saw Mary J Blige. I saw King George
three times. Like we went, we did essence. It was the year of concerts. So I like listening to live
music. I love to dance. I love to, I won't say I love to cook. I like to bake and try stuff that
I see on Tik Tok or Instagram. And usually it doesn't turn out like that. Probably because I follow
the recipe. But yeah, that's probably, that's me. And I love to like laugh and
I think one of the, I think, rewarding things about where I am in my state and my career.
Or in life. Like I want to see others do well. Like, you know, everybody, you know, you can have a
career or a profession where you're trying to, it's like crabs in a bucket. Like, you know,
you got to tear everybody down. So one person rises to the top. And I think there's enough out there
for everybody to get a piece. And we should be trying to uplift each other, encourage each other,
and do, you know, do great things together so that we can, we can do all those things that you said,
you said that, that, that I do.
Good vibes. So that, I mean, sounds like you're pretty much busy 24 seven, but uh, no, no, no, no.
Got it. Well, you know, seeing concerts is busy as well. That's a good thing. So
excellent, excellent. So, I mean, you've done a lot. I've seen you on all of these conferences.
Are there any other big goals that you have out there that you've yet to conquer that's
on your plate or you want to do?
I think as, you know, I try to reassess like things periodically. And I think I'm
probably approaching the season of reassessment so that I can continue to grow. Like one of the things
I think, um, like, you know, lessons that that I've learned, like last year, the importance of
delegation and the importance of being efficient and being and leading more.
Um, because again, I think wanting to see everything, wanting to touch everything,
you know, is not, it's kind of taxing can be taxing on an individual.
Um, so like on ideas, I would want to see everything before it went out. I think, um,
building a team, this is my profession professionally building, making sure my
building, I'm building a team and not feeling like I'm, you know, trying to do everything,
building a team, trusting my team, um, requiring, you know, sitting forth my expectations. So,
so those are things, um, I'm kind of reassessing and I, and I, and I guess to answer your question
more pointedly, I think I'm evolving as a leader. And so my goal is to, um, my goal is to kind of
re refine my leadership style and how I lead my team, now I manage my team. That's probably my goal,
my, my professional goal, my personal goal is to figure out, uh, we're almost six weeks
ahead of the next week. And I'm not seeing, figure out where I'm going to take a vacation this year.
Um, um, because I also realized that's important, like to totally unplug and I'm, I'm getting so
now and then most of the time, unless I have, unless your deal is closing next week or in the
next two weeks, I'm not like on the weekends, I'm not trying to work around the clock. Um,
in a way that can meet your expectations, meet timelines and meet deadlines.
You know, you do a pretty good job of, of communicating, um, your current schedule to,
to clients, what's in front of you. Well, that's argue. It depends. You know what I'm saying?
It depends when one client called me like it, it was like nine o'clock on a Sunday night.
And I answered because, you know, accessibility is part of what we get paid for, right?
But I also had to remind the client it's Sunday night. It's nine o'clock, like,
you know, let me rest so that I can, and I did it in a nice way. And the client
laughed when I said it. Um, but you know, I did, you do have to, you have to set some boundaries,
right? Um, last year, one of the words I learned, um, I think it's, you know, sometimes you get,
I get pulled in other directions, um, that may be outside of what I normally do.
And being able to say I'm at capacity, right? And being okay with that, being okay with saying,
you know, I can't, this is what I'm focused on. This is, this is what I want to do. This is,
I'm good at this. I like this. This is where I'm focused. I can't take on that right now.
Now, if I had capacity, I would jump right in and be a part of the team,
realizing you can't, you can't do everything and be everything. And then delegating, trusting other
people. Like I said, my transition or what I'm focused on or I'm, I'm, I'm trying to focus on
redefining myself as a leader, redefining myself as a manager and how I think and process things.
Um, and, and, and so that I can continue to provide my clients with what they need,
but also that you have those balance and boundaries that we talked about earlier.
And that's a big leap to go from being the technical person, right? That the sub-geometric
expert to being a leader of the organization. That's, that's a whole different ball game.
And not everyone, yeah. It is, it is. Um,
it is, but I think one of the things that has probably been most rewarding about it
is I have, um, I think you have to, like I was talking about Bill, your team.
Mm hmm. And one of, one of the associates, like seeing her grow, seeing her knowing, knowing
that, you know, if she makes a mistake, I got her back. If she, if she does something excellent,
I'm going to give her praise. Um, know that I trust her. Like if I have a call, I can't make the
call trusting her to handle stuff. Um, and you can see, and, and, and, and instilling in her
confidence that you can do this, right? Whether I'm here or not, you can do this.
Um, so that she doesn't have any, you know, we talked, I talked earlier about the imposter syndrome
or she doesn't have any questions about her ability to handle this. Like seeing that is probably,
uh, almost as a war war and as close in a deal, like seeing somebody grow under you.
And so I think that part is making the, the, the making the transition a little bit easier.
Um, pointing knowledge and pointing that knowledge into somebody else. I think also
realizing that last year, I realized, you know, realizing, uh, like everybody on your team has,
they have, uh, a skill set or may have, uh, a strength or may have an interest
in knowing that although their skill set or interest may not be what I need for my team,
supporting that and getting them in a place where they can see it with it, whether it's, um,
um, on my team or on somebody else's team, that has been really, really, um, I guess eye opening in,
um, um, kind of, I don't know, I guess, I guess, exciting, which makes the transition a little bit
easier. Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about relationship building. We've talked about a couple
times here, just, uh, in this conversation. Um, how do you, how do you look at it and, and how do
you look at it from your lens and the tax credit space? So, um, you know, kind of growing up
professionally in this space has been very interesting. Um, because when I used to go to
conferences, I used to go and sit in the room to get the information, like go and sit in on the
sessions. Now, when I go to conferences, I'm, I may be in one or two sessions, um, but I'm mostly
in the halls. Like I'm mostly talking to people, um, um, you know, meeting people, uh, reconnecting
with people. And it's, it's funny to see that transition kind of take place. Um, and understanding
that, you know, relationships happen over time. Like you're not going to take somebody to dinner
one time and all of a sudden have all their business, right? Um, and understanding that just
because you didn't select me this time doesn't mean you won't select me next time. And still want, you
know, um, you know, I hope you're, even if you don't select me, if you go with another lawyer,
I still hope you deal with closes. I still hope you deal, your project does well, right? Because
it's supposed to have this benefit to the community where you, where you, where you, um, are locating.
Um, but realizing it, it doesn't take, it takes time. Like this, they're working, I have to say
this when I talk to them, it's not dating, right? It's not like just because somebody doesn't have
time for you today, doesn't mean they won't have time for you tomorrow, right? I'm not saying stalk
anybody. I'm not saying, you know, go and every time you see somebody go and meet them, you know,
you've introduced yourself, you might have to introduce yourself multiple times. And it's
funny to me because sometimes people were like, Oh, it's so nice to meet you. I'm like, I've met
you four times before, but that's fine. You know, it's not, but it's not dating. So you don't take it
personally. Everybody meets a lot of people and then I got to remember every, every, every person,
right? Um, so you just want to keep out there, keep building your brand, focus on you. And, um,
and I mean, you know, you're going to experience them when you're networking for business,
you're going to experience some disappointment. You're not going to get every client. You're not
going to get every job. You're not going to get every project. But what you have to do is you
have to keep putting yourself out there. You have to keep trying. You have to keep having conversations.
You have to keep following up. Following up is key. Um, one of the things I get asked to mentor
a lot and, um, I mean, I'm a busy person, right? And I'm not saying that with, you know,
regular, doshes, Lee, I'm just, I'm a busy person. I got a lot of my calendar, right? So, uh, when
somebody asked me to do that, right? I don't mind, I don't mind mentoring. I don't mind having a
conversation with you. I don't mind having a zoom with you, but I make it very clear on the front
end that that relationship, because you asked me to do it is your responsibility, right? It's not
mine. So that means you need to follow up with me. You need to make, if you have an issue, you need
to let me know what the issue is. Like I'm not going to, I'm not your parents. I'm not going to see,
oh, such and such change dramatically drastically. So they may be having an issue with work.
And it may be, and my mentor relationships look different with different people. Some men,
why have a mentee, she'll call me, I might hear from her once every two years. And she says,
Ashley, I want to talk this through with you. We talk about it. We move on. She likes all my posts
on such and such. And then, but it's not, it's not, it's not, it's, it's her responsibility,
because she, you know, that's what she wants. It's not that I don't care about her. It's not that if,
and if an opportunity presents itself for me to send her business or to send her a client or
anything, I would do that for her, you know, or recommend her for a board. But it's, it's,
the relationship ultimately is her responsibility to follow up and maintain. And it's not that I'm
being mean or nasty anything. I just don't have time. Yeah, I could definitely relate to that.
And we talked a lot of, a lot about, you know, what this last question covers, but just to kind
of boil it down. What advice would you give to current students or young professionals that are
just starting out in their careers? I know we just talked about a bunch of stuff that would apply,
but just boiling it down to, hey, this is, you know, what I think a starter should do at this point.
So to take ownership of it. You know, a lot of times we sit and wait for things to happen, right?
Wait for the right opportunity to come along, wait for the right connections to happen, right?
And some, some of it takes time, some of it takes time to build everything is not immediate.
You're not going to graduate from college and become the CEO of something. It's, it's,
everything is not immediate. But there are things that you can do to prepare yourself. A lot of
times when I'm traveling, I have an audible, audible playing some type of book, that self-help book.
I read all day long. So sometimes I don't want to, to read on in the airport, but I listen to
you know, a book on tape that's supposed to be like a self-help or professional book.
So I update my LinkedIn profile constantly, at least once a year, I'll do like a
refinement, like a, you know, tweet, put different stuff on there. But then, you know,
when something new happens, I put it on there, I post it on there, I create content about what
I'm doing. I congratulate other people. I participated in organizations, you can see all
the stuff that I've done on, on my bio. And just because you participate in something for, you
know, a few years does not mean, you know, you have to stay in it or stay a part of it. If it's
not something that you enjoy or it's not something that you feel rewarded, some things you're going
to do because it's professionally beneficial, but some things you need to make sure that you enjoy.
But it ultimately is your career, like, you know, whether I'm at Butler Snow or some other firm or
in-house or whatever, you know, my brand is Ashley Witt and I have to protect it. So that means,
you know, I cannot, you're not going to find videos of me out drunk because I'm telling people
to listen to me, listen to what I'm telling you, take my advice, right? So I'm selective of, you
know, who I hang with, what I hang with because it's mine, right? I have too much at stake, too much,
you know, that I've invested in and I want to see it continue to grow and be great.
So protect your brand and take ownership of your career. Make connections, follow up,
you know, don't leave things at, you know, I, well, I sent her email. Yeah, send her another one.
Right. Wow. Okay. Great. Well, that'll wrap us up. And once again, thank you.
I don't want to say wow like that.
What's that?
Is that good or bad?
No, no, I think that's excellent.
Because, you know, you touched on one thing was it's not immediate. And that's, you know,
we all, the three of us weren't born into this, you know, internet type of thing with the immediate
gratification, like, hey, I post, I got 20 likes, you know, in 10 minutes. So we're, we kind of know
that you got to grind it out. But I found with some of these younger folks, millennials or whatever
you want to call them, the instant gratification mindset is there. And so I found with my mentees,
well, I called the person two times last week, what else do you want me to do? Okay.
I'll call them again.
Call them, text them and email them again. So I 100% concur with that. No doubt about it.
And follow. I don't think people realize how important follow up is. Follow up is key. Follow
up. You have to keep following up. It's you're not dating them. So it's not rejection, right?
And even if you don't get an opportunity being nice to someone or saying, you know,
thank you for considering me and keeping in touch after the fact, it can lead to your next
opportunity. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Any last words for you, Kermit, or?
Great, Ashley. You know, only thing I can think about is if you have any thoughts on
the new market tax credit, like the future of the program and the outlooks, any trends that
you recognize currently? So in the new market tax credit space, I think you're getting more on
before you used to, you didn't know where, when the applications coming out. I think we're getting
more on like a regular schedule. It seemed like the application deadlines are happening
in the prior year or early the like December, January ish. And the wars are like,
I'm now September, October ish. If you have a project figuring out where you are in that
timeline is key, whether or not you need to get in at somebody's application,
whether or not you need to look for existing allocation, that's, that's important.
There are, you know, people are, the CDs are still focused on
underserved states of the key to getting allocation is being able to check the box
to say that you're severely distressed, you're in a severely distressed community.
And so that's, that's important in the new market tax credit space. Also keeping in mind that we're
transitioning to a new census, meaning that you need to check your project site under the old data
and the new data to make sure it's still qualified because that may affect your timing.
And CDs want projects that have all of the pieces together. Like so you want to make sure
that, you know, if you, that you've looked at your capital stack, that you have side control,
that you, that you know where permitting is and that you've done some of those pre development things.
Good deal.
So Ashley, we certainly appreciate your time. And I think our guests are going to be well
pleased with this one. Always, we'll have to get her back maybe another year curving,
see what she's doing now, man. I think she's, yeah, I want to find out what this reassessment
period looks like now. You know, you just got, you got to, you got to keep it fresh just like
you change your hairdos, you got to, you got to change, you got to, you got to think about am I,
am I being my best self or am I putting my stem, you know, or, you know, some people
I mean, qualified as am I, am I happy, but happy to me is depend on the day, right? So I like to
think about am I, am I my best self and the best daughter I could be, am I the best sister I could
be, am I the best lawyer I could be, am I the best partner I could be. So you got to figure out what
makes your best self. Absolutely. Okay. So that's a wrap folks and we'll see you in the next episode.