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This is the real estate shop where each episode will bring you a top industry expert to share their

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current programs or projects that are making an impact in our communities today. Be sure to check

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us out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Welcome to another episode of the real estate shop.

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We had extreme pleasure having Ashley Wicks, attorney and nationally recognized expert

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in new market tax credits stopped by the shop. Ashley, how are you doing today?

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I'm doing pretty good.

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We're going to jump right in. So your professional background is off the charts from what we can

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see. Can you tell us about your background and lead us through your education years through law school?

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So I am a graduate of the Jackson State University. You may have seen the sonic boom on the South

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during the halftime show. Absolutely. And this is Vogue. I have a bachelor's of business administration

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and accounting. I also have a master's in professional accounting from the Jackson State

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University. And then I went to law school at Tulane Law in New Orleans. So tomorrow's

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Madagra. So happy Madagra. And then while working, I got a LLM in taxation from the

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University of Alabama School of Law. Got it. Awesome. I see from your LinkedIn profile,

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you're involved in a lot of different organizations. Alpha Kappa Alpha is one of them.

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But National Black Association of Black Accountants, another. How do you choose some of these

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organizations that you're a part of? And how do they help you with the work that you do?

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Well, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated, I was initiated and undergrad at Jackson State.

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And I've been a member 25 years this year. So that's kind of an organization that has,

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I started an undergraduate as an undergraduate and I've kind of grown within the organization.

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Some organizations, I think it's important, they have a lifespan. You might be very active in them

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for a little while and then you move on to something else. I'm a member of the Junior

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League of Jackson. I was very active for a period of time. And that's a part of their process. And

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then you kind of go into a sustainer mode. I try to be a part of things that mean something to me

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and that I would want to be engaged in. I try to be involved in organizations that mentor and help

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people in disadvantaged communities, people that look like me, just to give them an opportunity

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to engage and do things to help better their communities.

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I had a mentor. I once asked them before, I was taking on a different path in terms of my career.

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How do you choose the nonprofits that you're a part of from a board leadership perspective?

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And he's like, don't overthink it, man. Just follow your heart, follow organizations that

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align with what you like to do. And it's important to say no sometime because you only have

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so much extra time, right? And if it's not an organization that moves something

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within you or something you feel passionate about, it'll become more of a chore to participate

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in something you're excited about, something you want to see move forward, and something that

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energizes you because we need things that remind us of why we are doing the things that we're doing.

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Okay. Yeah. So if you go back, what was your first professional job? And was that before,

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after, became a licensed attorney? So my first professional job would be with the Witt

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Sullivan. It was probably in high school, the Witt Sullivan. When I was in high school,

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I thought I wanted to be a doctor. And I was in this program called Base Pairs, which was intended

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to expose individuals to the medical career. My teacher at the time had someone to come in and

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talk about finances and financial planning. And I was interested in the things that he was talking

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about. So I decided to pivot and do something different because my interest was more, it interests

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me of how people make money. When people are telling me that they're an entrepreneur and

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the things that they want to do, how they make money. So my first real professional job came out

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of that with an accountant. His name was Duit Sullivan. He sits past. He had his own CPA firm.

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And I mean, he would give me tasks to do as a high school student. And I learned some valuable

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lessons like, it's okay to fire your client because sometimes you and your client are not on the same

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page. That's not a common practice, but sometimes it's best for your client to go in a different

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direction. So I learned a lot from Mr. Sullivan. And you're touching on a couple key things I think

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a lot of people think about. When a fire client or no one, it's not a good fit. Because not every

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client is a good client. Not every vendor is a good vendor. But you also hit on a point earlier,

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you said it's important to say no. And so there's a pattern. They're like, how did you, how are you

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overcoming those things you just talked about? Well, one, I think with clients, we work long

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hours and you want to help them succeed. You want to help them do their best or get whatever their

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goal is, achieve their goal. And if you, and it's not necessarily, because not all clients listen to

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my advice, right? But it's, if your personality doesn't necessarily mess with the client or if the

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client, you know, if you're not moving in the same direction as the client, then it may be

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for the best interests of the client, because you want them to achieve their goal, they find

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somebody else more suited to their, to, for their needs. Now, it's not something I commonly do,

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but it's something I understand and appreciate because ultimately I want to see whether you're

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with me or with somebody else. I want to see you achieve whatever goal is that you set out to do.

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And I may not be the right person for you. And I'm not, you know, I'm not going to compromise

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things that the quality of work, I'm not going to compromise my morals and my ethics to accommodate

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your situation. So it's not all of it's bad. Some of it may be, you know, personality, you may need

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a different type of personality. And sometimes for clients, I am an African American woman,

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sometimes they have hard time taking advice from me. And so I realized that

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otherwise I think my advice is good advice. You know, if that's what you need to move your

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business for, then then move your business forward in that direction. Seeing no, I wish I had a magic

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answer, but I think one, you got to trust your gut, right? Like if somebody calls and asks me to

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serve on the board and they're telling me what the board is about, and I'm thinking about the,

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the, the, the board, like, for example, there was a board that I started on for like two or three

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years. I wasn't excited about, they have a wonderful mission and I financially support them, right?

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But I wasn't overly excited about going to the board meetings. I wasn't overly excited about

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participating in the extra activities that you have to do as a board member. I believed in a

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mission. I think their mission is important. I think they serve a great purpose, but it wasn't

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something that excited me. So I still support them. I'll make donations to them financially,

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but that's not how I wanted to spend my time. I know we're going to get into some more technical

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pieces of our conversation, but how did you matriculate through Butler Snow?

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So before I worked at Butler Snow, I worked at a firm called Watkins-Lowland Winner and Stennis,

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which is a, is also a Mississippi based firm. And I worked there with my mentor Alvino Castella,

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who retired at the end of last year. And so when Watkins-Lowland was acquired by Jones-Walker,

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we just, he decided to switch firms and I decided that I wanted to go with him to Butler Snow.

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I started off here as an associate and then I moved up to become a partner.

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Excellent. So under the topic that we're covering today, it's new to some of our folks. We've talked

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a little bit about tax credits on some of our prior episodes, but in the tax credit world,

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there's really a trifecta of financing vehicles. We have a low income housing tax credit,

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historic tax credit, and of course, the new market tax credits. So for the benefited audience,

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can you give us a brief overview of the new market tax credit, the financing vehicle,

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and how you acquired that expertise? Okay. So new market tax credits is authorized by Congress,

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like Historic and LIHTEC. It is not a permanent program yet, but hopefully it will become permanent.

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But what is intended to provide subsidy to more projects that are more commercial in nature.

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So unlike Historic, it doesn't have to, the project can be a new construction, doesn't

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necessarily have to be a historic district. Unlike LIHTEC, its focus is not just to provide

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housing. You can use new markets for a mixed use building, but you can't use it for like

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an apartment complex that's predominantly residential in nature. It's intended to have

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a commercial bent to it. You can use it to finance real estate, you can use it to finance operating

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business, work provide, work in capital to your business. The process itself can be,

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it can be overwhelming because it can be a lot, right? It operates a little bit different than

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than the other types of tax credits. But ultimately to your project, it could bring about 15 to 20%

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subsidy to your project. And unlike other subsidies, it comes in at closing. So the equity comes in

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at closing. There is a seven year compliance period for it. It can be used to finance anything

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from medical facilities, mixed use facilities. It could provide a work in capital to a project,

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manufacturing facilities. I'm trying to think of something that I have going on now. A lot of

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colleges and universities use them, HBCUs have used them. It can finance, let's say,

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manufacturing facilities, tech workforce development type facilities, charter schools.

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There's a plethora of things that it could be used for. The key is that the project has to be

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located in a low income community. And that's based on census information. And there are different

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websites that you can go to put your address in and see if your project qualifies for new

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market tax credits. It doesn't matter if it's a public university or private? No. So with respect

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to public universities, it's usually done through their foundation as opposed to the university

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itself. So it's usually because the project borrower has to be a corporation or partnership.

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So it's usually done through one of their foundations that's supportive of the

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university's mission, but may not be the university itself. What side do you typically

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represent? The investor, developer, or CDE? So I represent all of the above, but probably most

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frequently, I'm a quality council, which is the project borrower and then probably CDE council

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and then investors council. Well, I was going to say, the quality council role of the project

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borrower is probably, all of them are rewarding, but you get into a little bit more of the weeds

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and you get a little bit more invested in the project to see the success of the project.

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And you tend to, like I have, maybe two years ago, I closed for in Detroit, the community was the

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food desert and they needed a grocery store. So I worked on the finance and program, a project

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called Detroit Food Commons. And it's knowing that, you know, a project you worked on is going to

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provide food to this community once it's up and running. It was a real estate based project,

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but it was a cool project. And then, like this past December, and I'm just talking about on the

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quality side, we took a old, and this is in Memphis Tennessee, we took a old high school

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called Northside High School. It's gotten a lot of publicity in the Memphis area and they're

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rehabbing it so that it has new uses and it can, it can, it'll have medical facilities, coffee

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shops, it'll have a lot of different things that that community needs and it could be a

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catalyst for other development in that area. That's awesome. Is there a minimum job creation

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requirement? You know, with EB-5, I think it's with 10 jobs, something. So there is no quote

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unquote minimum because the way the program is deployed is done through these entities called

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community development entities and the community development entities apply for allocation

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from the federal government. And in their allocation agreements, they make certain

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commitments like I'm going to create so many jobs or you give us this allocation, I'm going to do

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all these great things and sometimes they'll have like community, they'll have benchmarks that they

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say that they're going to do and so some CDEs are focused on job creations. You have some CDEs that

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are focused on environmental issues. So CD, it depends on the CDEs and what commitments they

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may that they made to the federal government. Got it. And just, and just for reference because I

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know some people may not be familiar with new markets, the CDEs are the vehicles that, that,

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that deploy this allocation. And if you are a project, what you do is you apply to the CDEs

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and say, hey, I have this great project, my project is ready to go, it's located in a low-income

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community, it's going to have all of these great community benefits. Can you commit a portion

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of your allocation to me? And if they say yes and the financing begins, then you have an obligation

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to tell them once the project is up and running about those community benefits. Got it. So I know

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you gave some high-level examples of the type of stuff you did. And it's interesting that I know

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you're a Jackson, Mississippi-based law firm, but it sounds like you work all over the country.

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How does that work? How do you attract clients? I mean, obviously you have a name at this point,

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everybody knows you're nationally recognized, but what is that the generation business development

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aspect look like for you or does their in-house person who goes out and get business for butlers?

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No. No, it's me. So it looks like different things. This is the relationship business,

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this is me finding projects, this is me participating in podcasts like this, this is me

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speaking on panels, this is me my willingness to do webinars, to sit down and have conversations

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and talk about new market-task credits. It's a lot of it as far as doing business is working

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with consultants. There are consultants in this space. If you are a project and you're looking

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for allocation that can help you and connect you with CDEs, connect you with investors,

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having relationships with those consultants. Part of it is doing a really good job for your client,

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making sure that your client is satisfied. So when they, you know, one, they don't, after they go

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through the process, they don't hate the program. And then two, knowing that you did a really good

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job for them. You really are, I guess, a partner and want to see that their project succeeds.

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And when you do a really good job for your client, sometimes, you know, they'll tell other people

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what we use, this is who we use, this is who we've done. And just being willing and open to have

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conversations, you know, a lot of people have projects, right? And we all know from the development

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side, maybe 20% of them are real projects. But sometimes having a conversation that happens

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somebody think through what are my next steps, what do I need to do, where should I be,

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that can sometimes lead to business development, always being kind of, you know, being open for

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that type of exchange. And then the coolest thing to think about new markets and new markets for me

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as a practice is the fact that I get to do stuff all over. Like I close a deal in Minnesota, I have

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a deal that one of my deals that's closing right now is this active is in North Carolina. And then

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I last week I closed a deal in New York. So like being able to do things all over is good. I mean,

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it's cool. And then I should interject. Actually, that was LinkedIn contacts. I know we're going to

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talk about the relationships in a minute, but start out LinkedIn contacts. You know, I never

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ever thought I was going to be in Mississippi at all. I was like kind of still shocked, you know,

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from the 1960 stuff that I saw, had an opportunity to go there and reached out to her already knew

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she was the AKA, you know, I was out with and actually had coffee. So, boom, here we are today.

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So it's just never know. It's about being open, right? Like just being open and you never know

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who's going to lead you your next business opportunity. So,

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as you mentioned, you have a deal in Minneapolis, Minnesota. You got a deal in New York. Did that

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come up because of this speaking public speaking that you do at conferences or

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or how did that even happen being in the South? So some of it is like I said, this is consultant

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Jordan. So I have a relationship with the consultant and he likes working with me and I like

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working with him and his team. So some of it is being open to that. And our relationship goes back

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probably we've known each other for probably about 12 years. So it goes back away, right?

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So sometimes it's cultivating and over time, meeting people at the conferences, being open to

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like zoom and and the busy you get is harder. Like, you know, managing my schedule. It feels like

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and I feel bad about pushing people off on the have you want to schedule it with my assistant,

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but she's she's keeping me on task and making sure but I also want to be available. Like I want to

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talk to you if you have something I want to have a conversation with you. But she also knows that I

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have documents to read, working group conferences to participate. So it's about being open to that.

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And then my LinkedIn, like I'm constantly updating, I'm constantly talking about the projects that

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that I've had the opportunity to work on. And speaking on panels and talking about talking

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about some of the hard conversations, like if you are, you know, it's Black History Month, if you're

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doing a black project, you know, you're going to have some different sets of challenges. And it's

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not it's not, you know, because there are some some issues that those projects have is that it's,

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for example, sometimes getting a fair praisel is challenging, right? You'll read a repraiser

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report and you're like, did you even go to my project? Did you even see my project? And fully

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understanding the importance of having getting ahead of the appraisal. Understanding that

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you know, there are things that are, you know, there's, you know, racism in our society, and

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institutional racism in our society. So there's a level of distrust there, getting them comfortable

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with this is how this works. This is really how it works. And this is why in answering the question

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of why, like sometimes people try to push projects or decisions on clients and not tell them why.

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So my goal is if you know, if you, I tell them if you have a question about something, you're going

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to be signing this document, you're going to be in this marriage for seven years, at least,

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you know, if you have some questions and you need to understand the why, and it's my job to get you

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comfortable by explaining to you why it's there.

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What point do you decide, you know what, I need to be on a panel. I need to be at this new market

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task credit discussion, but I need to be on the stage as you're crafting a marketing plan. What

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led you to that decision? Okay, so it's not crafted. So I'll be honest, the first time I did a new

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market task credit panel, I was just all right, right? Because I wasn't comfortable necessarily

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in this space, right? I worked on deals. I've been pushing documents. And I just hadn't,

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I guess, gotten my high health, getting used to my high heel shoes, right? And then it, the more,

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you know, I started taking the lead on my projects and realizing, you know, I know this stuff,

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right? I know, I know what I'm doing. I know the answers to provide to my clients.

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I have a different perspective to offer than some of my colleagues. I don't, now I can talk to you

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about section 45D, but I don't talk, when I'm talking to a layperson, I'm not talking about 45D.

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I'm talking to you in terms of something that you can understand and you can grasp and maybe

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associate it with something that you're familiar with. So there was no plan. I did realize that,

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as a lawyer, like my LinkedIn profile, that it was important that I develop my brand. I have a brand

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and that I protect my brand, right? I did also, when the opportunities presented themselves to

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speak. And like I said, the first time I wasn't comfortable. So it took a couple of times doing

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it over and over. I did a couple of webinars. And the first time that I think I really felt comfortable

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was doing it, doing the Novogradic basics as a webinar, right, during the pandemic. And it was

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because I don't know if I was at my house or what, but it, it, it, it, it was kind of like, okay,

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this could be fun, right? And then the other piece to it is, I think, again,

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understanding that, you know, most people of color have some, suffer from some of the imposter

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syndrome, realizing I'm not an imposter. I am who I am, right? And bringing my authentic self. So that

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meant at a, during a webinar, cracking jokes, talking about the Jackson State University,

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which is the best HBCU ever, or just being who I am. And, you know, and understanding that, you

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know, I'm a good lawyer, I'm a great lawyer. And I'm, for some, I'm, you know, I'm a right fit,

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I'm a good fit for others, I may not be. But, you know, I'll, for those clients that I am a right

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fit, I'm going to do my best to give them the best service. Yeah, that's excellent stuff. So you

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talked a little bit about being involved with, without the cap alpha, and we're all D9 members here.

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Currently, what other type of associations are you involved with? If any, are there any boards

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that you're, you're on currently or? I am a member of the Jackson State University Development

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Foundation, which is our, I'm a new member. This is my first year. And I'm really excited about

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that. I'm really excited about the, the, the direction that the, that the board is headed in.

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I'm really excited about the support that they're giving the university. I'm excited about

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we're transitioning and modernizing and it's, there are great things going on. And we're

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totally in support of the university, which is exciting. I'm a member of the, the Women's Foundation

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for Mississippi, which is a great organization to help women. Although it's not

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a nonprofit yet, one of my passions over the last maybe year, year and a half,

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is helping establish the Mississippi after school network. I believe the education is

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important. I believe children having access to education early on starts their trajectory,

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their life trajectory, right? And so the goal of the network, which I'm chairing their leadership

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team, just taking up most of my extra time. And it's, and it's something like I said,

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told you earlier, something that I don't mind having a conversation with. I don't mind

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going to the meetings. I don't mind thinking through their issues because it's, I know that

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once I leave this earth, once the network is up, it'll be helping kids for years to come and

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their providers. So we're working to, it actually started from a provider and now it's separating

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and it's forming its own, hopefully its own separate nonprofit entity and then it'll continue to grow

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and help providers throughout the state of Mississippi. Those are, I'm trying to think,

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is there anything else I've committed to recently? No, that's, I think that's it. I try, although

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I get asked to do stuff a lot, I try to keep it in a way that it's manageable. I still have

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my free time, right? So, you know, when somebody asks me to do something, my first question is,

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how much time are we talking? Are we talking monthly meetings? Are we talking quarterly

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meetings? Are we talking annual meetings? And then what, what, what, why are you asking me to do

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this, right? So are you expecting me to be super active? Does it have its own staff? Those are just

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some of the questions I asked to kind of figure out if it's the right fit for me,

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my, for my personal life and for my professional life, because I don't want to compromise any of

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that in this forsaken board service. Now, that's, that's reality, right? That's good feedback to

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just helping our audience think through like how you volunteer your work and life year in and year

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out. I see you're getting awards, best lawyer in America, you know, during a day time in the

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evening, you're saving, you're solving all the world's problems. It seems like with a non-profit

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engagement. But what is Ashley Wicks like? What do you enjoy to do as a person? How do you balance

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for an artist? So, I enjoy hanging with my family and my friends. I enjoy, I enjoy Jackson State

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football. So I'm a season ticket holder. So during football season, I will be, they have a home game,

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I'm there. I enjoy spending, a lot of time spending time with my family and my friends.

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I like to travel for pleasure, not necessarily for work. Those are two different things.

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I like, last year, my sister, we were laughing because we call it the year of concerts because

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we went to see, I saw Usher in Vegas. I saw Eric Abadou. I saw Mary J Blige. I saw King George

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three times. Like we went, we did essence. It was the year of concerts. So I like listening to live

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music. I love to dance. I love to, I won't say I love to cook. I like to bake and try stuff that

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I see on Tik Tok or Instagram. And usually it doesn't turn out like that. Probably because I follow

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the recipe. But yeah, that's probably, that's me. And I love to like laugh and

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I think one of the, I think, rewarding things about where I am in my state and my career.

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Or in life. Like I want to see others do well. Like, you know, everybody, you know, you can have a

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career or a profession where you're trying to, it's like crabs in a bucket. Like, you know,

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you got to tear everybody down. So one person rises to the top. And I think there's enough out there

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for everybody to get a piece. And we should be trying to uplift each other, encourage each other,

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and do, you know, do great things together so that we can, we can do all those things that you said,

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you said that, that, that I do.

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Good vibes. So that, I mean, sounds like you're pretty much busy 24 seven, but uh, no, no, no, no.

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Got it. Well, you know, seeing concerts is busy as well. That's a good thing. So

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excellent, excellent. So, I mean, you've done a lot. I've seen you on all of these conferences.

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Are there any other big goals that you have out there that you've yet to conquer that's

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on your plate or you want to do?

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I think as, you know, I try to reassess like things periodically. And I think I'm

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probably approaching the season of reassessment so that I can continue to grow. Like one of the things

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I think, um, like, you know, lessons that that I've learned, like last year, the importance of

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delegation and the importance of being efficient and being and leading more.

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Um, because again, I think wanting to see everything, wanting to touch everything,

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you know, is not, it's kind of taxing can be taxing on an individual.

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Um, so like on ideas, I would want to see everything before it went out. I think, um,

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building a team, this is my profession professionally building, making sure my

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building, I'm building a team and not feeling like I'm, you know, trying to do everything,

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building a team, trusting my team, um, requiring, you know, sitting forth my expectations. So,

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so those are things, um, I'm kind of reassessing and I, and I, and I guess to answer your question

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more pointedly, I think I'm evolving as a leader. And so my goal is to, um, my goal is to kind of

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re refine my leadership style and how I lead my team, now I manage my team. That's probably my goal,

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my, my professional goal, my personal goal is to figure out, uh, we're almost six weeks

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ahead of the next week. And I'm not seeing, figure out where I'm going to take a vacation this year.

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Um, um, because I also realized that's important, like to totally unplug and I'm, I'm getting so

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now and then most of the time, unless I have, unless your deal is closing next week or in the

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next two weeks, I'm not like on the weekends, I'm not trying to work around the clock. Um,

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in a way that can meet your expectations, meet timelines and meet deadlines.

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You know, you do a pretty good job of, of communicating, um, your current schedule to,

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to clients, what's in front of you. Well, that's argue. It depends. You know what I'm saying?

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It depends when one client called me like it, it was like nine o'clock on a Sunday night.

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And I answered because, you know, accessibility is part of what we get paid for, right?

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But I also had to remind the client it's Sunday night. It's nine o'clock, like,

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you know, let me rest so that I can, and I did it in a nice way. And the client

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laughed when I said it. Um, but you know, I did, you do have to, you have to set some boundaries,

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right? Um, last year, one of the words I learned, um, I think it's, you know, sometimes you get,

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I get pulled in other directions, um, that may be outside of what I normally do.

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And being able to say I'm at capacity, right? And being okay with that, being okay with saying,

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you know, I can't, this is what I'm focused on. This is, this is what I want to do. This is,

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I'm good at this. I like this. This is where I'm focused. I can't take on that right now.

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Now, if I had capacity, I would jump right in and be a part of the team,

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realizing you can't, you can't do everything and be everything. And then delegating, trusting other

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people. Like I said, my transition or what I'm focused on or I'm, I'm, I'm trying to focus on

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redefining myself as a leader, redefining myself as a manager and how I think and process things.

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Um, and, and, and so that I can continue to provide my clients with what they need,

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but also that you have those balance and boundaries that we talked about earlier.

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And that's a big leap to go from being the technical person, right? That the sub-geometric

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expert to being a leader of the organization. That's, that's a whole different ball game.

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And not everyone, yeah. It is, it is. Um,

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it is, but I think one of the things that has probably been most rewarding about it

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is I have, um, I think you have to, like I was talking about Bill, your team.

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Mm hmm. And one of, one of the associates, like seeing her grow, seeing her knowing, knowing

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that, you know, if she makes a mistake, I got her back. If she, if she does something excellent,

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I'm going to give her praise. Um, know that I trust her. Like if I have a call, I can't make the

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call trusting her to handle stuff. Um, and you can see, and, and, and, and instilling in her

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confidence that you can do this, right? Whether I'm here or not, you can do this.

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Um, so that she doesn't have any, you know, we talked, I talked earlier about the imposter syndrome

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or she doesn't have any questions about her ability to handle this. Like seeing that is probably,

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uh, almost as a war war and as close in a deal, like seeing somebody grow under you.

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And so I think that part is making the, the, the making the transition a little bit easier.

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Um, pointing knowledge and pointing that knowledge into somebody else. I think also

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realizing that last year, I realized, you know, realizing, uh, like everybody on your team has,

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they have, uh, a skill set or may have, uh, a strength or may have an interest

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in knowing that although their skill set or interest may not be what I need for my team,

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supporting that and getting them in a place where they can see it with it, whether it's, um,

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um, on my team or on somebody else's team, that has been really, really, um, I guess eye opening in,

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um, um, kind of, I don't know, I guess, I guess, exciting, which makes the transition a little bit

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easier. Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about relationship building. We've talked about a couple

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times here, just, uh, in this conversation. Um, how do you, how do you look at it and, and how do

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you look at it from your lens and the tax credit space? So, um, you know, kind of growing up

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professionally in this space has been very interesting. Um, because when I used to go to

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conferences, I used to go and sit in the room to get the information, like go and sit in on the

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sessions. Now, when I go to conferences, I'm, I may be in one or two sessions, um, but I'm mostly

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in the halls. Like I'm mostly talking to people, um, um, you know, meeting people, uh, reconnecting

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with people. And it's, it's funny to see that transition kind of take place. Um, and understanding

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that, you know, relationships happen over time. Like you're not going to take somebody to dinner

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one time and all of a sudden have all their business, right? Um, and understanding that just

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because you didn't select me this time doesn't mean you won't select me next time. And still want, you

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know, um, you know, I hope you're, even if you don't select me, if you go with another lawyer,

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I still hope you deal with closes. I still hope you deal, your project does well, right? Because

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it's supposed to have this benefit to the community where you, where you, where you, um, are locating.

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Um, but realizing it, it doesn't take, it takes time. Like this, they're working, I have to say

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this when I talk to them, it's not dating, right? It's not like just because somebody doesn't have

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time for you today, doesn't mean they won't have time for you tomorrow, right? I'm not saying stalk

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anybody. I'm not saying, you know, go and every time you see somebody go and meet them, you know,

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you've introduced yourself, you might have to introduce yourself multiple times. And it's

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funny to me because sometimes people were like, Oh, it's so nice to meet you. I'm like, I've met

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you four times before, but that's fine. You know, it's not, but it's not dating. So you don't take it

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personally. Everybody meets a lot of people and then I got to remember every, every, every person,

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right? Um, so you just want to keep out there, keep building your brand, focus on you. And, um,

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and I mean, you know, you're going to experience them when you're networking for business,

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you're going to experience some disappointment. You're not going to get every client. You're not

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going to get every job. You're not going to get every project. But what you have to do is you

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have to keep putting yourself out there. You have to keep trying. You have to keep having conversations.

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You have to keep following up. Following up is key. Um, one of the things I get asked to mentor

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a lot and, um, I mean, I'm a busy person, right? And I'm not saying that with, you know,

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regular, doshes, Lee, I'm just, I'm a busy person. I got a lot of my calendar, right? So, uh, when

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somebody asked me to do that, right? I don't mind, I don't mind mentoring. I don't mind having a

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conversation with you. I don't mind having a zoom with you, but I make it very clear on the front

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end that that relationship, because you asked me to do it is your responsibility, right? It's not

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mine. So that means you need to follow up with me. You need to make, if you have an issue, you need

377
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,800
to let me know what the issue is. Like I'm not going to, I'm not your parents. I'm not going to see,

378
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:56,480
oh, such and such change dramatically drastically. So they may be having an issue with work.

379
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:02,800
And it may be, and my mentor relationships look different with different people. Some men,

380
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,000
why have a mentee, she'll call me, I might hear from her once every two years. And she says,

381
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:15,120
Ashley, I want to talk this through with you. We talk about it. We move on. She likes all my posts

382
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:25,120
on such and such. And then, but it's not, it's not, it's not, it's, it's her responsibility,

383
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:30,160
because she, you know, that's what she wants. It's not that I don't care about her. It's not that if,

384
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:36,400
and if an opportunity presents itself for me to send her business or to send her a client or

385
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:42,480
anything, I would do that for her, you know, or recommend her for a board. But it's, it's,

386
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:49,440
the relationship ultimately is her responsibility to follow up and maintain. And it's not that I'm

387
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:55,120
being mean or nasty anything. I just don't have time. Yeah, I could definitely relate to that.

388
00:43:56,720 --> 00:44:03,200
And we talked a lot of, a lot about, you know, what this last question covers, but just to kind

389
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,080
of boil it down. What advice would you give to current students or young professionals that are

390
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,480
just starting out in their careers? I know we just talked about a bunch of stuff that would apply,

391
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:18,080
but just boiling it down to, hey, this is, you know, what I think a starter should do at this point.

392
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:28,000
So to take ownership of it. You know, a lot of times we sit and wait for things to happen, right?

393
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:38,320
Wait for the right opportunity to come along, wait for the right connections to happen, right?

394
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:45,200
And some, some of it takes time, some of it takes time to build everything is not immediate.

395
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,280
You're not going to graduate from college and become the CEO of something. It's, it's,

396
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:58,720
everything is not immediate. But there are things that you can do to prepare yourself. A lot of

397
00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:04,800
times when I'm traveling, I have an audible, audible playing some type of book, that self-help book.

398
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:12,080
I read all day long. So sometimes I don't want to, to read on in the airport, but I listen to

399
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,280
you know, a book on tape that's supposed to be like a self-help or professional book.

400
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:28,800
So I update my LinkedIn profile constantly, at least once a year, I'll do like a

401
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,160
refinement, like a, you know, tweet, put different stuff on there. But then, you know,

402
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:40,160
when something new happens, I put it on there, I post it on there, I create content about what

403
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:48,080
I'm doing. I congratulate other people. I participated in organizations, you can see all

404
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:54,160
the stuff that I've done on, on my bio. And just because you participate in something for, you

405
00:45:54,160 --> 00:46:00,160
know, a few years does not mean, you know, you have to stay in it or stay a part of it. If it's

406
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,280
not something that you enjoy or it's not something that you feel rewarded, some things you're going

407
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:11,680
to do because it's professionally beneficial, but some things you need to make sure that you enjoy.

408
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:22,240
But it ultimately is your career, like, you know, whether I'm at Butler Snow or some other firm or

409
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:28,560
in-house or whatever, you know, my brand is Ashley Witt and I have to protect it. So that means,

410
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:35,600
you know, I cannot, you're not going to find videos of me out drunk because I'm telling people

411
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:41,360
to listen to me, listen to what I'm telling you, take my advice, right? So I'm selective of, you

412
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:48,320
know, who I hang with, what I hang with because it's mine, right? I have too much at stake, too much,

413
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,240
you know, that I've invested in and I want to see it continue to grow and be great.

414
00:46:54,960 --> 00:47:00,720
So protect your brand and take ownership of your career. Make connections, follow up,

415
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:09,600
you know, don't leave things at, you know, I, well, I sent her email. Yeah, send her another one.

416
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:15,760
Right. Wow. Okay. Great. Well, that'll wrap us up. And once again, thank you.

417
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,000
I don't want to say wow like that.

418
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:22,560
What's that?

419
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,360
Is that good or bad?

420
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:25,840
No, no, I think that's excellent.

421
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,320
Because, you know, you touched on one thing was it's not immediate. And that's, you know,

422
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,840
we all, the three of us weren't born into this, you know, internet type of thing with the immediate

423
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:44,800
gratification, like, hey, I post, I got 20 likes, you know, in 10 minutes. So we're, we kind of know

424
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:50,960
that you got to grind it out. But I found with some of these younger folks, millennials or whatever

425
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:58,320
you want to call them, the instant gratification mindset is there. And so I found with my mentees,

426
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,480
well, I called the person two times last week, what else do you want me to do? Okay.

427
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:03,360
I'll call them again.

428
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:10,560
Call them, text them and email them again. So I 100% concur with that. No doubt about it.

429
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:18,960
And follow. I don't think people realize how important follow up is. Follow up is key. Follow

430
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,960
up. You have to keep following up. It's you're not dating them. So it's not rejection, right?

431
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:30,560
And even if you don't get an opportunity being nice to someone or saying, you know,

432
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:36,560
thank you for considering me and keeping in touch after the fact, it can lead to your next

433
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:42,560
opportunity. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Any last words for you, Kermit, or?

434
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:50,400
Great, Ashley. You know, only thing I can think about is if you have any thoughts on

435
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:57,280
the new market tax credit, like the future of the program and the outlooks, any trends that

436
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:04,880
you recognize currently? So in the new market tax credit space, I think you're getting more on

437
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:11,680
before you used to, you didn't know where, when the applications coming out. I think we're getting

438
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:17,520
more on like a regular schedule. It seemed like the application deadlines are happening

439
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:24,480
in the prior year or early the like December, January ish. And the wars are like,

440
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:31,840
I'm now September, October ish. If you have a project figuring out where you are in that

441
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,680
timeline is key, whether or not you need to get in at somebody's application,

442
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,520
whether or not you need to look for existing allocation, that's, that's important.

443
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,240
There are, you know, people are, the CDs are still focused on

444
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:59,200
underserved states of the key to getting allocation is being able to check the box

445
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,200
to say that you're severely distressed, you're in a severely distressed community.

446
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,200
And so that's, that's important in the new market tax credit space. Also keeping in mind that we're

447
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:19,520
transitioning to a new census, meaning that you need to check your project site under the old data

448
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,400
and the new data to make sure it's still qualified because that may affect your timing.

449
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:34,000
And CDs want projects that have all of the pieces together. Like so you want to make sure

450
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:40,160
that, you know, if you, that you've looked at your capital stack, that you have side control,

451
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:45,280
that you, that you know where permitting is and that you've done some of those pre development things.

452
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:48,080
Good deal.

453
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,560
So Ashley, we certainly appreciate your time. And I think our guests are going to be well

454
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,440
pleased with this one. Always, we'll have to get her back maybe another year curving,

455
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:05,040
see what she's doing now, man. I think she's, yeah, I want to find out what this reassessment

456
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,880
period looks like now. You know, you just got, you got to, you got to keep it fresh just like

457
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,680
you change your hairdos, you got to, you got to change, you got to, you got to think about am I,

458
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,960
am I being my best self or am I putting my stem, you know, or, you know, some people

459
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:29,360
I mean, qualified as am I, am I happy, but happy to me is depend on the day, right? So I like to

460
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:35,840
think about am I, am I my best self and the best daughter I could be, am I the best sister I could

461
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:42,960
be, am I the best lawyer I could be, am I the best partner I could be. So you got to figure out what

462
00:51:42,960 --> 00:52:00,320
makes your best self. Absolutely. Okay. So that's a wrap folks and we'll see you in the next episode.