Low brain has got three functions. Can I eat
this? Should I fight this? Or should I flirt
with this? I think we'll stick with that for
the third F. So you've got 3F brain and higher
function brain. Now, the second you start to
go, you're putting that person to 3F brains.
So now they're going to do one of two things,
eat you, fight you, or tickle you. Flirt with
you. Turn you around. Yeah, exactly. Welcome
to episode 29 of the Fugle Firearms Podcast,
the podcast that is here to help you save money
and become the most effective self -defender
you possibly can, or the most effective recreational
shooter you possibly can. But going to that first
point about the most effective self -defense
person you can possibly be, and for the least
amount of money, you know, probably one of the
most important things that maybe a lot of us
haven't considered. is whether or not the tools
that God gave us, you know, when we were born,
are actually available to us to use in a self
-defense context. And by that, I mean, you know,
your hands, your feet. And, you know, I don't
mean your feet as a weapon. Maybe your feet is
running away. Also, your mind. Are you thinking
about the situational awareness of what's going
on around you? Or do you simply jump right to
the point where you need to draw your gun and...
Yeah, maybe that wasn't the best solution. So
in order to talk about that subject today, which
isn't strictly firearms, but it does closely
relates to our lifestyle, doesn't it? I've brought
on Mr. Jay Cooper from Budo Brothers. He lives
up in Canada, and he is a person that... Well,
let me give you a little background. When you
start doing a podcast, one of the first things
you think about is, who do I want to have on
this show? And what are the personalities that
I want to bring to the audience? And I initially
talked to Jay over three years ago about being
on this show. And finally, we get to that point.
He hasn't been evading me. It's nothing like
that. But the conversation just kind of went
away for a while. But then he was very gracious
enough to pick it right back up where it was.
And he's going to give you some perspectives
that if you haven't seen his Reality Check channel
on YouTube or his Reality Check videos that are
also on Facebook, then you're missing out. I
mean, and you're missing out big time. So first
off, we're going to bring on my co -host, Ken.
Ken, good day. How are you, sir? Doing well,
doing well. Looking forward to this show. Should
be very good. Jay, welcome to our show. Thank
you, sir. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Appreciate you inviting me on. So, Jay, a little
bit of background from you. You were law enforcement
for, I think you said, 10 years in Great Britain
and 10 years in Canada. Now you either, I don't
actually know this. Do you actually teach martial
arts or you simply talk about it? And how does
that experience shape your opinions and what
you want to talk to people about who just aren't
exposed to this stuff at all? Yeah, so correct,
10 years in the UK. I do it with two agencies
over there, with Kent Police, which is in the
south of England, and Greater Manchester Police,
which is in the north of England, also happens
to be my hometown. There's actually, it's fascinating
the differences between the various departments,
because policing is seen as a gestalt entity.
It genuinely is not. There's a lot of variation,
even in a small place like England, which is
not that large a territory at all. There's still
a lot of variations across the board with that.
And in Canada, I was with the Calgary police,
the municipal department. This is the question.
I'll anticipate this question. RCMP are basically
federal and they go, they have powers across
the whole country and they tend to do the smaller.
towns and the outlayers and the Mounties always
get their man, et cetera. It's a little, almost
not a million miles away from what you got in
the US with the state troopers and the sheriffs
and the FBI and the blah, blah, blah. But I wasn't
a Mountie. Although everyone always asked me
that because due south and all the programs,
they think police, Canadian, Mountie. Exactly.
You know, I'm the most English sounding Mountie
that there ever would have been. But anyway,
so no. And as for martial arts, I've been doing
that for 35, 36 years now. And I actually, I
used to have a gym. I closed that down actually
in December, mainly because I was focusing on
other areas. So there's other bits and pieces
of work I want to be doing. But I still have
private clients that I teach. Jeet Kune Do. be
my main art which is bruce lee's i also have
a boxing coach i'm a wrestling coach i teach
jiu -jitsu i teach um a screamer um bad ebbs
and you know a little bit of this little bit
of that little bit of the other it's the same
goes a black belt in five disciplines at last
count wow so and for those who don't know a screamer
that they may not be familiar with it it's a
filipino martial art that is largely stick based
And that gives you in your escalation of, you
know, if you ain't got no hands, then, well,
maybe you got sticks that you can. And by ain't
got no hands, I mean, you're just not good with
your hands. And sticks is the next, I guess,
layer up. Would you put it that way? It's yeah,
that's it's it's unusual. And it's just possibly
a slight diversion from the main topic. But if
you look at the way we perceive martial arts,
we look at the Chinese and the Japanese systems,
which are the bigger ones. they start the students
empty -handed and then they work their way through
when you get to the advanced levels it's like
okay now we will teach you the weapons in the
filipino systems it's literally the reverse they
start you with the weapons on the assumption
that if you know like you said if you don't have
good hands you might have a hard stick um and
then once you've actually learned to use the
weapon flows then you can take the stick out
and it blends to the empty hand so they actually
go weapon first empty second most of the systems
tend to go um, anti -first weapons. I never knew
that. That's interesting. My oldest son took
a screamer a little bit for a while, uh, as part
of actually the style he did. Well, it was a
class that was Ken Poe, but they had an, a screamer
expert who would come in and help. So it gave
him a little bit of variety and that's, you know,
that's why you're on the show, Jay, really, because
I think our audience benefits from maybe not
a constant diet of guns, guns, and more guns,
but. something else that when it comes really
down to brass tacks and the moment of need, there's
a certain amount of people who think that the
gun is the first and foremost opportunity, where
in an escalation of force, it really isn't. So,
and I think that people, well, let's start a
little higher maybe at the situational awareness
problem, because I think you teach a lot in your
videos, which again, I thoroughly recommend people
go watch this. The people get into situations
because they don't have either the appreciation
or the amount of damage that can happen, or they
lack the situational awareness to see what's
coming at them. And you've seen this before in
not only the videos that you promote, but at
the same time on your law enforcement side. So
how do people fix that problem and make it part
of their daily existence? One of the things I
did with situational awareness was in policing,
as I'm sure you're familiar with Jeff Cooper.
Of course, yes. And his color coding. That was
my first exposure. Now, of course, Cooper wasn't
concerned with awareness. He was shoot, no shoot
states. The color coding then got transposed
over to be kind of an awareness piece. For the
police originally, which I am one of many that
then took that and applied it to the civilian
marketplace. But there's many of those type of
models out there. The OODA loop, for example,
is the same sort of principles. And they all,
you know, arguably we have in the UK something
called the Green Cross Code, which is how you
teach kids to cross the road. You know, stop,
look, listen both ways. over you go at its core
it's a situational awareness piece because you're
in a high risk environment you look at what's
going on you make a decision based on that information
that gets processed in if it's safe to walk across
if it isn't safe to cross you don't you wait
until it is or you go to the next crossing and
it's a very simple low level thing But that reflects
what situational awareness is. Now, the problem
we have is taking the color code, for example,
and I don't want to insult your listeners' intelligence
or anything else like that, but obviously you've
got the white, yellow, orange, red, and then
black or brown, as I call it. No, go ahead and
explain it. Well, white, in terms of how I teach
this as a self -defense principle. White is oblivious
state. That means you're not paying attention
to what's going on. You're not really tuned in.
You're not paying attention to the environment.
Now there's schools of thought. I don't have
an issue with people being in white when it's
time to be in white. Like if you're in cold yellow
all the time, it's exhausting. And if I'm in
the bath, I'm on. likely to be scanning under
the mat for you know the ninjas that are hiding
there um if i'm you know at home watching tv
i tend to lower my level now just because i'm
at a lower level doesn't mean i can't click back
into a higher level of awareness should something
come to my attention that comes as part of the
practice so it's a little like anything you can
if you're a conditioned athlete you can perform
moderately close to the appropriate level with
no warm -up um if you've done it a long time
um if you haven't warmed up then or you're not
a trained athlete your body will stand to like
break down on you i had i had it's not a good
idea to do that but the capacity to do something
isn't isn't you know isn't diminished by that
so when you look at code white that's your oblivious
state awareness not paying attention to what's
going on absolutely no clue you know head in
the phone or texting or reading a book or whatever
it is you happen to be doing um even little things
like the way people go around the corner if you
look at when you take a like you do the shooting
line you take the longer line and you come out
wide so you get the view quickly well if you
watch most people take a corner they take it
hugging the building so they get surprised when
something's there and and again it's not like
paranoia but it's just giving yourself that ability
to get that bigger sight picture But those are
like little examples of how people operate in
code white or the state of obliviousness. Code
yellow is the next stage of that. And that's
kind of that aware of what's going on. You're
not necessarily focusing in on anything, but
you just kind of got the little internal radar
thing going on. Most people should be in code
yellow when they're driving, paying attention
to the cars, the signals, the lights, the depth
of volume, speed of traffic, all that sort of
thing. um you're not necessarily focusing on
any one thing but you've got a good awareness
everything else is going on around you code orange
means you've highlighted a specific issue or
something which could potentially present a threat
a problem an engagement whatever you want to
classify that as and you start to formulate plans
negative plans positive plans neutral plans you
know depending on on the situation um that can
be as simple as you see a group of people you
either go back the direction you came in you
cross the road or if you think you can you know
just walk past without it being an issue you
just carry on walking um not every potential
threat is a threat but it's just an awareness
of of that and formulating a plan and code red
is you execute that plan that you'd formulated
in your head now it becomes a little bit I tend
to fold OODA loop in with this as well, which
is observe. You see what's going on. You orient
based on what you see, what you know, your history,
your experience, your training, your background,
your operator state. You decide the best course
of action and then you act on that course of
action. Now, of course, that can go between the
observe and orient lots and lots and lots because
as soon as you look at anything, it instantly
changes and all these scenarios are dynamic.
So when you break situational awareness down,
and you start getting into the meat and potatoes
with it. I normally spend two to three hours
explaining color coding to people. When people
say, I want you to do a self -defense seminar,
just quickly, I always go, fine, we're doing
situational awareness then, because outside of
that, there's not a lot I can do with you for
two or three hours. I'll give them a few eye
pokes and things like that, but it's mainly if
you pay attention to what you're doing, most
of the stuff's avoided. Like, what's a seatbelt
for in a car? is a good example. What does a
seatbelt do? I mean, the seatbelts in the event
that, I'll stick with your example, that your
pre -planning of contact avoidance didn't work
out, then you have something there to restrain
you to prevent greater injury than you would
otherwise suffer. There's a degree of I never
saw it coming because you really didn't see it
coming, or there's a degree of I should have
seen it coming and I didn't. It fulfills the
same function in both of those. Now that's your
skill set, your hard skills, whether that's hands
-on, intermediate weapons, firearms or something.
If we're going up for that, we're in tanks and
intercontinental ballistic missiles. But that
has to be there. But 90 % of what we do can be
taken care of just by keeping your head in the
game and not switching off. There's an interesting
thing. So I always do this with people as well.
Where would you say would be safer? Like a high
street at 3 o 'clock in the afternoon or a dark
alley in a rough neighborhood at 3 o 'clock in
the morning? Not the dark alley. I would think
high street. But I suppose you could have, depending
on if you were in the middle of the street, you
know, and cars were whizzing by you, it could
be quite dangerous. Statistically, the high street's
more dangerous. There's more crimes, more offences
than you get in the alleyway at three in the
morning. Now, of course, it's a silly thing because
a high street is always going to be safer in
terms of what you get. The other reason is that
if I was to drop you in a high street at three
in the afternoon, you'd probably look for the
nearest coffee shop and then try and get an idea
of where you're at. If I was to drop you in an
alleyway at three in the morning, your head would
be on a swivel permanently. So your attention
to the area that you're in... would make that
area not necessarily safer but your ability to
interact with the environment would be much more
heightened so the chance of you formulating an
appropriate response and responding to what's
coming up would be that quick and in the alleyway
your ability to respond is more tuned in and
quicker because the nature of the environment
if so you know non -permissive environment is
if you want to use that terminology you'll be
on a swivel you'll be paying attention to everything
you'll be much more aware of who's there what
they're doing what's going on If you're in a
high street, because it's a crowded environment,
a perceived safe environment, and by and large
it is a safe environment, your threshold for
attention will lower. So you'll hit that white
state before you even know it. And then before
you realize it, you got pickpocketed, you've
been assaulted, you've been mugged, or something
happens that you just didn't see coming because
frankly you weren't paying attention to it. Both
because it's in the middle of the day and it's
crowded so there's lots of people around. And
also because there's so much noise. Unless you've
kind of got a filter that you can pick things
out that are of interest, you just won't notice
it because you can only process so much information
at once. So is that the limiting factor for a
lot of your students? Is either their lack of
training of situational awareness or their ability
to process just because of, well, again, lack
of experience in doing that? Because they don't
walk around in yellow all the time? You do. What
you learn to do is you just learn to know when
to lower your needle. It's a little like the
revs on a car. You can't keep it pinned here
because you don't have the space to accelerate.
You just maxed out your revs. So we always begin
with the state of the operator. You have to have
a calm state yourself. If you're agitated or
you're already jacked up before you're leaving
the house, you need to take about three minutes
to do some breathing just to bring yourself down
again. So the minimum I always say to guys is
in the morning when you wake up, just take two
or three minutes just to sit there and breathe.
Now you can, whatever meditation people do, they
can belly breathe, which is a fantastic exercise.
Do that in the morning and do that on an evening
at a minimum. You wake up, you're calm when you
start the day, and at the end of the day, you
blow all the stresses of the day out with that
breathing as well. So the state of the operator
has to be paramount because most people, they
don't make, bad choices because they're bad people
they don't make bad decisions like on purpose
I don't think anyone sets out to make a bad decision
and obviously there are always exceptions to
those rules but it's cognitive failure that kicks
in it's their ability to process information
and then formulate a plan based on the information
they're receiving they just get overloaded really
quickly and that was actually the one I left
out of the color code which is called black which
is total shutdown So you can't process anything.
So this is when people, you know, they've just
got mental and frenzy and see red or they absolutely,
they just freeze and they don't know what to
do. I nicknamed it Code Brown for the civilian
market. I find it lightens the mood slightly.
One of my, true story, when I was in training
in class in Canada, we were doing room clearing
drills. And it was only rubber guns, so we weren't
doing live rounds. It was just the idea of the
exercise rather than a live simulation. And it
was at the end of the day, everyone's always
like, oh, do another one of these things. And
the instructors, two of them have had to go home
really, so we were limited in instructors. So
you're clearing the rooms and then you find the
person, okay, clear, secure, okay, next room,
and you're doing all the clearing. And because
we'd found the two instructors that we knew were
there, the guy that was leading, You could just
see his body started going through the motions
because he knew we'd done the exercise. We just
had to clear the rooms. One of the instructors
ran around and came through one of the side doors
at the back end and hid at the end of the maze
that we were in or the room that we were in.
And so he's not paying attention. He came around
the front like that. And the instructor went,
and just screamed at him. And it was like a still
motion. he just stood there like that he didn't
move he just froze because he he was done he
he was just out instantly it took about 10 or
15 seconds for him to like kind of realize what
had gone on because he was in no threat no risk
no actual um consequence the failure within this
environment outside of looking like a bit of
a puddin from your classmates um and he just
adrenaline threshold Cognitive failure is the
most code black I've ever seen anyone go. And
it was a really interesting learning point. So
that really challenged his idea of his own readiness.
I'm sure if he was introspective about it, because
he thought that, you know, I've run this drill
before. I know what's coming up. I know where
the bad guy is. I know where the good guy is,
the shoot, the no shoot. And then, gosh, I would
think that a person would understand that real
life doesn't work that way. They should. They
should. But when you're in the end of the day
training exercise, we found the two, Hey, I'll
just, you know, go through the motions. You never
go through the motions in anything you do. So
I'm sure that there's a lot of people in our
audience. And I don't mean this is, it sounds
like I'm criticizing my own audience. I'm not,
that's not the point, but there's probably a
lot of people who spend most of their time training
at the range and shooting at paper targets under
zero threat. you know, unless they're just being
unsafe, but zero threat to themselves. And they
know it, that they're sure that the paper target
is not going to attack me, no matter, like, if
I have a zombie on it, there's no threat. But
as a result of that, they haven't trained to
lower tiers. And my concern is that in the moment
of need, and I kind of alluded to this earlier,
that you won't have the time to get your weapon
out. It's going to be on you so fast. And by
the way, listeners, Jay also has on their Budo
Brothers site, has a video series that you can
subscribe to and get, which is called Too Close
for Comfort, which is what to do in the moment
when someone is really in your face and you are
maybe restricted on movement, certainly forward
because that person's in your face or on your
flank, but maybe because of other constraints,
a wall. a corner, something like that. And they
haven't trained to that scenario. So they're
going to go to gun right away and maybe that's
justified. But how do you square these things?
Going to a gun without training for anything
else and maybe not even being able to get to
your gun because now you're physically not able
to get it out of your, you know, very expensive
IWB holster. Or your $10 Blackhawk. Well, that's
another topic. No, I know. I know. I'm teasing.
It seems to be a ruining joke. I never had a
problem with mine, but anyway, I digress. The
too close for comfort thing is actually primarily
aimed at those, like the things you've always
got, you know, your hands and your mind and things
and the mouth. Too close for comfort is even
for martial artists. Now, you look at people
that deal with hand -to -hand stuff all the time.
And most people do not know how to generate impact
or start a fight from close in or end a fight
more accurately from close in. And a lot of this
comes to do with decision -making thresholds.
You can come in at lethal force instantly. No
problem with that if the boxes are ticked and
there's three of them. You can come in at just
talking or walking instantly. Not a problem.
You can go from lethal. realize you don't need
to and come down the scale you can start speaking
instantly jump so it's less an escalation of
scale and it's more a continuum like a circle
you just come in at any one given point you can
just escalate and move across to wherever you
need to be before we lose that thought if you
come in at lethal on that circular continuum
of force have you now justified The other guy
escalating way beyond proportion of what the
actual conflict should have been in the first
place. Because now you're putting him in a defensive
position where now there's a disparity, right?
Correct. Correct. Now, if you're in proximity,
of course, you've now escalated to a situation
where you might not be able to get that off.
Now, you said something interesting I was going
to bring into. I will come back to your point
there. You said earlier people that shoot the
targets and things all day. then they find something
that isn't lethal they're not prepared for. I
would argue they're not prepared for lethal either.
They're prepared for target shooting, which is
fine. It's necessary with your skill. I'm quite
an average target shooter. I'm an okay shot.
I'm not great. I don't spend as much time on
the range as a lot of people do because I've
got other things that I do and I train in, but
I like to keep my hand in there just so I can
put a shot on target if I need to. when it came
to active scenarios i was actually a way better
shot because i bet i move better dynamically
than i do statically um i'm very left eye dominant
as well so i had to do a modified weaver rather
than an isosceles which is what they tend to
teach in the academy but when you're looking
at lethal force your three criteria and different
people use different level terminology but it's
the same three things they have to have a weapon
capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm or
higher upon you They have to have the intention
to use that, and they have to have a delivery
system to actually put that upon you. So it's
weapon intent delivery system. You need all three
of those things in place for lethal force to
then be a consideration. Me being crap at fighting
doesn't instantly qualify as lethal force. Just
because I can't do anything else doesn't mean
I then pull, you know, Old Smokey out. So when
you deploy a firearm or a weapon, like a blade,
for example, as well, I'm a big knife guy. um
you're instantly making this lethal force even
if it wasn't to start with so if you are having
a disagreement an argument and you know potentially
going to end up in you know fisticuffs and then
the second you pull out a lethal force option
this is now life or death for that person too
you're quite identified so you could put it in
a position where you're now making it okay to
kill you you're allowing them to then employ
lethal force and you might not have needed to
get to that point. So the considerations are
always yourself and the other person. You can't
just, you know, well, I'm protecting myself.
Well, yeah, you are, but you're now making them
protect themselves. And as a whole, even within
police officers, you know, officers involved
in self -induced jeopardy and things like that,
there's a lot of legislation and laws and case
laws around what you can and can't do with lethal
force for that too. And as a civilian or non
-officer, non -sworn, you don't have... um qualified
immunity or protection of the agency that you
represent or the state that you represent so
you're literally just on your own swinging in
the breeze if you're going straight to your your
gun you've got a bigger problem because there's
a lot of stuff you're missing that you know you
probably could have done along the way if it's
the time and the place for the gun sure i don't
have a problem you can go straight to that gun
but if you're pulling that out and it isn't a
gun time you've got issues And I don't just mean
as in you've got issues because you drew your
gun. I mean, you've got issues going forward
because now you've escalated a situation or you've
made this exponentially worse. Then we start
to get into the psychology of things as well,
because when you kill someone, that's never going
to be an easy thing to live with. Some people,
if you've ever read on killing by Grossman, if
you haven't, I highly suggest, I'm sure most
of your listeners will, but if you haven't, well
worth the investment of your time. The ability
to actually kill someone isn't always in people.
One of the hardest things I have when I teach
self -defense is getting people to actually hit
people. I mean, properly hit them. It's a very
big hurdle to overcome because as a society,
we're conditioned to, you know, have these barriers
in place, these behavioral breaks that come upon
us. If you're happy to just like, you know, haul
off and peel a few rounds off, then again, then
you have got issues because it shouldn't be that
casual for anything. Once you know your lines
in the sand, where you should be looking to deploy
lethal force, where you should be dialing back,
where you should be wrestling, where you should
be hitting, where you should be striking, whatever
it happens to be, when you know your lines, your
decision becomes a lot easier to make. Most people
don't know their lines. They just stop and go.
So they go white to black instantly like that,
guns out, bang, bang, bang, and now all of a
sudden we've got a lawsuit and a jail time on
our hands potentially. And even if you get away
or acquitted... on any charges against you. There's,
you know, stress, hours, time away from family,
money, and all the other stuff that goes along
with it. And at the end of the day, you killed
someone. I've seen, though, so many other practitioners,
I'm not saying on your site, that's a disclaimer,
that basically say to seize the initiative very
quickly if it looks like it's going to go violent
and basically take the high ground in order to
preclude the other person from having the tactical
advantage of assuming that you survived the initial
contact and the surprise from the initial contact
that you go very aggressive, very fast. You know,
it's, it's, you know, it's essentially what they,
you know, term in the, in the military of, um,
what's the word I'm looking for? The phrase I'm
looking for. Epic fury. No, not, no, no, I don't
mean that. No, uh, it's something of violence.
Um, Gosh darn it, why can't I remember that phrase?
Sudden violence? No, well, it's the... Asymmetrical,
I think, might be the thing you're looking for.
Not really asymmetrical, but close to that. It's
essentially the application of violence in a
disproportionate manner early and often. And
that is maybe the thing that I think people have...
But you've got to get to that tipping point.
Well, the tipping point is, dude pushes me, and
then... I pull a knife on him? This is the problem
when you start to take military and law enforcement
training to non -military, non -law enforcement
environments. It doesn't work. Well, that's not
true. It doesn't work automatically. Context
is always king. So when you look at most of the
people providing... firearms training and things
like that as well they have backgrounds in military
and in law enforcement you know and things like
that these days you can of course qualify separately
but most people tend to to come from those backgrounds
but the theaters that they're operating in are
very different if i'm in a theater of war for
example yeah i'm going to be peeling caps off
shoot i'll be getting those shots in first because
I almost know the rules of engagement. Okay,
like if you're having a gun, bloody high. Like
if I'm having a gun, I've still got one on me,
here we go. But even there, there was a video,
I actually did a breakdown on it for my students.
It was body cam footage from the Ukrainian conflict
that's going on right now. It was a Russian soldier
against a Ukraine soldier. And they started off
basically closing down on each other. They ended
up hand -to -hand wrestling with a blade. Even
when a firearm, in an environment where it's
literally firearms all the time, it's military,
highly trained, all that sort of thing, it still
ended up coming down to who had the better wrestling,
knife or otherwise. In a civilian setting, most
problems are solved by awareness, your posture,
your movements, body language, boundaries, leaving
God, just not being where problems are likely
to occur in the first place. Exactly, using my
legs to walk away if I can. Even with my 52 -year
-old gammy knees, I can still get away at a fair
clip if I need to. The gun is a last -ditch answer
to a very narrow class of problems. It is not
a panacea. It's not a universal solution. And
for me, the gun should make you more careful,
not more courageous. Okay, so let's talk about
Houston in 2023. at the mexican restaurant where
the place is being robbed by a guy what turns
out later to be a toy gun and waves the gun around
rather indiscriminately and uh not really pointing
at anyone in particular demands their wallet
most people acquiesce give the wallet up because
it's property and don't feel like getting shot
but they haven't really analyzed that it's not
a real gun and then as homies leave in the place
um Your good Samaritan, who's already pre -positioned
himself, offs the guy, shooting him multiple
times in the back, basically executes the guy
while he's on the ground after the gun's already
been removed from him. You talked about perfectly,
by the way, in that video, understanding what
the pause means and being accountable for every
round that you send down range or send into somebody.
For the backstory on this, the guy was ultimately,
no charges were filed, but he's in Houston. Exactly,
he's Texas. Any other state, he would be in prison
for many years. I didn't think it was. Personally,
I can understand why, as long as the guy's an
imminent threat, that you could take that action.
But once he's disengaging and leaving, it would
be really hard for me to decide that I'm going
to shoot this guy as he's leaving. um yes he
still had a gun in his hand but the the pause
is the thing that i think and keep going as well
that was the thing yeah right mag dumped in me
he basically mag dumped the guy when he was already
on the floor yeah yeah so what are your thoughts
on on that because you know the red mist came
out and he couldn't shut it off the pause is
so important because And it's a good example
and illustration of it, if a little extreme,
because, you know, there was still a gun in play
at that point. But not every movement is a lethal
cue. Not every apparent threat is what it seems.
And then once you've acted with the firearm,
so once you send it out there, you can't get
it back. You can't just like, you know, oh, sorry,
my bad. You can't load the previous save to keep
your character points intact so you don't get...
punished and things um the pause isn't hesitation
for its own sake it's a disciplined moment of
recognition of what am i seeing and what's going
on here right now um the restaurant example is
a good one because the internet rewards speed
of opinion uh whereas reality rewards speed of
judgment and the pause is what allows you to
do that um i've just come back from ilita where
i was um teaching um ethical decision making
under pressure and the basis of that is find
decision points that what i do is i tend to hide
it as talking points so find the point where
you can talk to the guy so we and we i do this
introducing for a series of drills but the art
of conversation is lost and i had lots of um
experienced officers some really good people
i met some fantastic officers while i was there
some very very experienced i always do a little
dip test of the room and i said right who trains
here in some form of martial art and hands go
up and one of the guys had been training jiu
-jitsu and martial arts and mma for over 25 years
and ran a school there was some 12 15 year guys
there and i said okay how much time did you put
in on the mats this week and they were like oh
you know two hours three four times a week so
eight hours and how much time did you put in
the gym oh you know well hour three or four days
okay so we've got another let's say we're up
to 12 hours Did you only range time this week?
Yeah, I spent about an hour or two at the range.
Okay, so now we're getting to 14. I said, how
much time did you spend on your talking this
week? And they're like, what? And I said, well,
you're talking. I don't mean talking. I mean
practicing communicating, practicing finding
these times. When do I talk? When do I walk?
When do I fight? Because policing has got this
idea. that when you're arresting someone, you're
giving them instructions as you're arresting
them. And you'll see it in the videos online,
you know, some good channels out there. Reality
Check with Jay Cooper is a good one. I've heard
of that. There's also Active Self Protection.
Yeah, it's a good channel. You should check it
out. He's a very handsome chap, although he's
got longer hair than in some of the videos. You
mean John Correa, or did you mean this Jay Cooper
person? Well, John, his hair's gone really long
now, hasn't it? It looks fun. I'm jealous. It's
luxurious, John's hair now. He's trading weight
for hair, it seems. Okay, that's a first one.
It's like a kind of Samson thing. I'm not sure
I like the visuals on that, but go on, Jay. Okay,
fair enough. John's channel's great when they
add to his self -protection channel, but he tends
to use a lot more of that side of the fence with
it. But you always say, get on the floor, get
on the floor, drop a knife, drop a knife, drop
a knife, drop a knife. Well, if you look at how
most, how we are, and this is why the pause becomes
so important. There's a lot of like neuroplasticity
and scientific things behind it. But if we go
high brain, low brain, we kind of know where
we're at with that. High brains, like the thoughts
and the speech, the, you know, the fine motor
skills. Low brain has got three functions. Can
I eat this? Should I fight this? Or should I?
flirt with this i think we'll stick with that
for the third f um so you've got 3f brain and
high functioning brain now the second you start
to like go you're putting that person to 3f brains
so now they're going to do one of two things
eat you fight you or you know particularly turn
you around yeah yeah exactly um So you can't
then expect them to comply or follow directions.
If you're coming in like rah, and you put them
like rah, they're not in that brain. So you have
to lower them down if you want to get compliance
at that end. But we also have to bring ourselves
down because now we're entering dangerously close
to that cognitive failure mode. So if I can't
bring myself down and just take that pause, and
the pause doesn't have to be big. It's just a
simple awareness of what's going on. Very good
training example of this, and I can draw this
from my own experiences when I was in the academy.
Because as I said, not a particularly good paper
shooter. I'm okay. I can put them where they
need to be, but my grouping's not the best. But
it's on target. It's fine. And then we have the
Prism system in Calgary where you run the video
scenarios. It's like the old, is it Mad Dog McCree,
the old video game? Yeah, yeah. it's kind of
so the prism system that we use is one of those
sort of things it's like videos and it responds
in certain ways but they also had some optional
things on those where they had different sized
round targets and numbered and you had to shoot
them in order now guys that were way better shots
than me would be going like bang bang bang bang
and their times were like you know within a class
of 30 you know they're roughly the same but they're
getting up there I went up, and again, like I
said, not the best shot, but it was like, go.
And the first thing I did was look where all
the numbers were, and then went bang, bang, bang,
bang, bang, bang, bang. And I was the second
fastest in the class. Now, I'm not the best gunman,
but I took time to see what was going on before
I then engaged. It's a small example, and obviously
it's within a safe training environment, but
when you see what's going on, what's really going
on versus what you think is going on, the vista
of options then becomes open to you. The Houston
Restaurant one is an interesting one because
I'm not sure I'd have shot the guy as he was
going. Might have done. I can't say I would.
I can't say I wouldn't because I'm not there.
And hindsight's always 20 -20. But at the point
he's leaving, he isn't a threat anymore in the
strictest sense of the word, unless he turns
around and starts, you know, peeling off rounds.
I understand why that guy engaged him. I genuinely
do. I don't necessarily understand why he mag
-dumped him other than the fact he was... He
was going for it, and that was it. He was in
there. Yeah, the difference between stopping
someone and killing someone, I think legally
has some merit. If I clench you and start to
leave my size 11s on the side of your face repeatedly,
I've gone beyond what person would consider reasonable.
Just because there's a potential. If it looks
like a gun, it's a gun. That's... A simple rule.
Or if it looks like it might be a gun and they're
acting like it's a gun, it's a gun. Even if it's
a chair leg in a plastic bag or something. There
have been instances like that. If they're using
it in that manner to make you think it is, assume
it is. If it turns out afterwards it isn't, then
they shouldn't have pretended it was. Right.
You're not going to risk your life over something
that could be. No, you have to look at it with
the best information you have in the instant
in which you encounter it and then make your
best decision. And, you know, if it turns out
differently, then that might be something that
you're going to have to litigate at another time.
Well, you're going to have to be able to articulate
why you did what you did because it's going to
get played over and over and over again in court
for the jury to watch in slow motion when it
didn't happen in slow motion. It's no different
than watching a sports event where a referee
got a bad call. It's a decision made in seconds
that is analyzed for hours, put before the DAs
and the lawyers for weeks and months, and is
taught as an example for years. It's unfair,
but it is what it is. And this is the other thing.
This is actually tied back to the piece about
the training. I've got a gun, I'm fine. If you
look at an athlete training for an event, to
use that example, an athlete spends 90 % of their
time training for 10 % of performance. most peace
officers, police officers spend about 90 % on
performance and 10 % on the actual training.
So it's the only, well, not the only, but it's
one of those examples of where the test actually
comes before the lesson. And we don't want to
find ourselves in that situation, whether we
use a hand, a gun or whatever it is, that all
of a sudden now, well, I have my gun, he looked
aggressive. You're going to need more than that.
This is where that situational awareness piece
comes into it as well, because it's not just
where's the danger, it's what am I seeing? And
you'll hear things like bladed stance. And I'm
sure you're familiar with the term bladed stance.
But I had this at Eilita. I said, OK, what's
a bladed stance? They said, well, we know what
a bladed stance means. I said, I do. You do.
But who's reading the report? Who is going to
listen to this account of events going on? Tell
me what that person was doing. Well, his left
foot was backwards and it was raised, you know,
the toes were pointing slightly off to one side,
the knees were bent, you know, this foot was
here. I call this a bladed stance. A precursor
or a furtive movement. Yeah, but you have to
qualify what it is if you're going to name it.
You can't just name it outright and assume people
know what you're talking about. We fall into
that jargon, talking policing a lot, but the
civilian world falls into that as well. um oh
yeah i i i i i feared for my safety why because
that on its own means nothing that's a conclusion
that isn't evidence that's a conclusion this
happened this happened this happened this happened
i saw this i saw this i heard this i felt this
therefore i feel for my safety that's fine you
can't go conclusion i feared for my safety therefore
i used there's a whole thing that has to go into
justifying that conclusion fear for my safety
i apprehended immediate and lawful personal violence
whatever you decide it to be, there has to be
an explanation to that conclusion. The conclusion
does not stand on its own. So do armed people
then, in your experience or what you've researched,
jump into situations too early or without full
context because they feel justified by virtue
of being armed? I think you find that. You do
find it. I don't think it's that common, to be
fair. If you look at the statistics of... firearms
owners and carriers versus those that are actually
using them I think we'd see a lot higher numbers
on people using them unnecessarily if that was
the predominant mindset I don't think it is I
think it can become I think it can become a comfort
giver or you know I've got my gun so I'm good
to go and there was an argument there was one
I forget where it was it was either Cuba or Costa
Rica I forget which one it was. And it was an
argument between two neighbors. And it ended
up being a bit of a shoving match. And then the
other guy, he'd already put his piece on him.
So he was ready to go. It became a pushing match.
And again, he mag dumped him. He literally just
pumped, you know, his rounds into him. And there
was absolutely no lethal force threshold met
at all. But it's like, I've got a gun. I'm going
to use it. Now there was another video. I did
a breakdown. in the supermarket of all places
and a guy had he'd helped the guy so there was
a big tall guy with a cowboy hat on and the guy
had helped him and then he hadn't said thank
you so then he started beaking off at him for
not saying thank you we're already starting to
get into a very dangerous ego territory right
now um well you didn't say thank you well did
you do it because you wanted to be nice or did
you do it to get a thank you it's you know but
then they started he flipped his hat and they
started arguing and then the taller guy pulled
the knife out and then the guy does his out comes
a gun and it became a game of rock paper scissors
and you know baseball batting um a very appropriate
the guy goes for knife fine i'll go for my gun
i don't have a problem with what happened in
that moment but if we wind it back why if the
guy didn't say thank you okay he's an let him
go you know Just don't help him again. There's
no need to then get that sense of, I want to
be right about this. You need to know that I
helped you and you didn't say thank you. And
I've been guilty of that myself. You know, like
you open the door for someone and they walk through
and they don't say anything. I always go, I don't
mention it, which is, I don't need to say that.
It just makes me feel better inside sometimes.
And we all find ourselves in those traps, but
that. knife to gun scenario appropriate use of
a gun because the guy went for a knife inappropriate
use of a knife but it didn't even need to get
to that point because again it just it started
here and then it ended up you know the standoff
which was you know and again the gun becomes
if things go on i've got my gun here the one
of the biggest fantasies in self -protection
is that picture peen you know i've got this clean
draw coming in against this opponent known distance
and real life don't work that way It really doesn't.
A lot of the time, what saves you is the person's
as useless as you are. And you winning by look
as much as design. For the listeners, if you
haven't watched Jay's reality check videos, which
again, I insisted that you do that, do your homework
and get educated on this stuff. The number of
incompetent fighters that he... puts forth that
get into bad situations that end up going very
very wrong for sometimes both parties is remarkable
i mean competence is not assumed on the part
of your threat at all but the threat part like
you've highlighted a number of occasions where
someone just gets into a fist fight and then
you know one maybe is a little more skilled than
the other pops some guy he hits his head on the
cement parking lot and now you've got a grievous
industry injury for a scenario that, again, was
disproportionate in result. Maybe not in action,
but disproportionate in result. It becomes interesting
when you deal with that, though, because outcome
isn't the measure of the action. Imminency is.
Right. And when you look at legal, moral, and
ethical ramifications of actions that we take,
that's where fantasy dies. um especially online
if you i've actually i'll be honest i have a
great audience my audience is really really good
and it's overwhelmingly positive i've got about
i've got a good pareto i've got 80 awesome the
20 some are over you know the trolling a little
bit some are just absolute you know morons not
enough to make youtube keep you um you know on
the air all the time though right well the problem
with youtube i have it's a slight diversion because
i i switched to instagram um and facebook um
i started off on facebook with uploads to youtube
when i was working with the budo brothers and
we put it on their channel and then they content
hit them they just went absolutely not you're
not putting that up and they gave a strike now
they get one more strike and their channels taken
down now the buddha brothers got 2 .1 million
subscribers on the channel big audience you don't
want to be losing that so that's why reality
check on youtube ended up becoming its own thing
um we were getting 13 million up to. We averaged
about two to three million views on the videos.
Then Facebook started shadow banning what we
were doing. So we started getting these adult
content hits and YouTube, every single video
I put up, mature content must be able to watch
this. Now, I don't mind that per se if they were
consistent, but half the time the videos I'm
commenting on are still up on YouTube in their
original format. No problem. I do a commentary
on it, and I like to think I add a little bit
of social value to the video. I don't just do
the violence poem, and all of a sudden I'm getting
smacked with adult content strikes. And I don't
get monetized in Canada anyway, so fine. YouTube,
I'll put a video up there every now and then,
but most of my stuff now is on Instagram and
Facebook because it's just easy to get the content
out. The content I want to put out there isn't
to sell things. I have courses. Of course, I've
got the two courses. I've got the original reality
check course and the two course for comfort course,
the two main ones that I do. I do private tuition.
I do consulting. I do expert opinions. I do all
that stuff. But I don't, the videos, I want,
if you do nothing else but watch my videos, I'd
like that to still be a worthwhile experience
that will teach you something. I want the information
to be out there so we can just, you know, make
the world a little bit better one piece at a
time. So when we look at... what most be the
fantasies like people talk online as if every
confrontation is like morally simple and legally
obvious and that comes from both ends either
you know the well you shouldn't have f around
and found out that crowd or the other people
which is any action taken is instantly an assault
and shouldn't have been done um but it's never
obvious It's never straightforward. The law doesn't
work that way. You can be justified in the moment
and you'll always face scrutiny afterwards. And
then plenty of people, as in the supermarket
example, escalate situations that they've got
no business escalating. A shove, a fall, a curve,
a bad angle, a shot from a gun that shouldn't
have gone off and you're dealing with catastrophic
injury or death. Force isn't judged by how scared
you felt. alone um but the facts that were present
that led to you feeling that fear and um you
can take an action which is absolutely not the
right action to do but as long as your reasons
for doing that are good or at least articulable
and explainable you can be okay it's why math
teachers used to say always show me you're working
out so even if your answer is wrong you're working
out it's fine they can see what led you to that
even if it's just one digit wrong that led you
to the wrong answer you get credit for your working
out well the law effectively at the risk of oversimplifying
works on the same principle you get credit for
your working out if the answer is right as well
good on you but if your answer is wrong your
working out will still get you the pass mark
if it's done properly are there situations where
i'm kind of a two -part question here where people
who are maybe just waking up to the idea of gee
i need to, you know, develop some organic and
by organic, I mean, you know, skills of the stuff
that's actually literally attached to you that
has blood flowing in it, organic skills in areas
where they haven't trained before. Maybe they
have some use of a Kubiton. Maybe they have listened
to one of our previous shows where we talked
about pepper spray and they've adopted that as
an escalation of force. You know, one of the
steps up that ladder. They already probably have
a CCW, so they've got that part covered, but
they haven't really thought about the hands and
the feet part. Are there ways that are more efficient
for middle -aged or maybe slightly above middle
-aged folks like the three of us to learn that
stuff? And then the second part of the same question
is, are there things that you would call... In
the Navy, we call it negative training. Negative
training is training to the wrong thing. In other
words, you're imbuing someone with misinformation
that you shouldn't do that. I'm going to point
out, do I want to mention it? I think I will.
You can always edit it out if you don't. Yeah,
that's true. I can, but I think I want this in
there. There is a very entertaining page on Facebook
called Point Fighter. And in there, you've seen
this. You're laughing. You know what I'm talking
about. I question whether the proprietor of this
page is, I hate to say it this way, is helping
the mentally handicapped to get some exercise
and try to learn some skills or whether his practitioners,
his students are actually serious. And if they're
serious. I have two theories. If they're serious.
then he's giving them false confidence yeah a
it's not his pay he doesn't train those people
he collects the footage um so he'll collect point
fighting live from all around the world now point
fighting in the martial arts world isn't widely
thought of i've done it and i've taught it and
it's fun it's a really good way to get kids exposure
to adrenaline early on because it's a competitive
framework. And there are some, I mean, there
are some old school fighters back in the day.
There's a gentleman in England called Alfie Lewis,
who's a tremendous influence and inspiration
on me. Not someone I actually trained under,
but the way he moves, the way he is. And that
guy was hardcore. He was a point fighter, but
he would wreck you. He would absolutely destroy
you. It's now almost a game of tag with gear
on. but it becomes a form of an introduction
to the wider martial arts community. It's a safe
way to introduce an element of chaos into your
training. If you're swimming or learning to swim,
at some point you have to jump in the water.
If you're training for a protective environment
or a self -defense environment, at some point
you have to put a chaos drill or a non -compliance
piece in there. One of the reasons that you hear
a lot of this in martial arts, it's kind of related
to the idea of the gun stuff. I don't train for
sport, I train for the street. Well, the people
that make the biggest distinction between street
and sport are normally the worst at both. If
I train for a sport, especially if it's a full
contact one like boxing or wrestling or jiu -jitsu
or Muay Thai or something like that, I'm training
to deliver my... skills to someone that doesn't
want me to and is equally skilled so i've got
a constant pressure test and quality control
metric of what i do if i train for self -defense
i can turn up in the class with my camo cargo
pants and you know my tight short sleeve rash
guard top and throw the hammer fist and things
in there in the absence of the class that does
any form of pressure testing or or you know non
-compliant drilling i have no way of knowing
that works until i have to use it And that isn't
the time I want to be finding out if that works
or not. When it comes to, for ourselves, as we're
getting on in a little more advanced than I is.
So the Point Fighter, sorry, Point Fighter, I'll
finish that. Sorry, my ADHD brain was kicking
in there. We've got triple F brain and I've got
ADHD. Well, I'm talking, by the way, I want to
be clear. I'm talking about Point Fighter Live.
That's the name and they have 2 .4 million followers.
I know the channel. I know the channel well.
I'm not convinced it isn't a spoof channel. I'm
genuinely not convinced that he doesn't just
seek out the stuff that he knows he's going to
get clickbait. Because I think he's either Australian
or American, the guy that runs it, I think. Unfortunately
for us, he's an American, and he does these things
in Miami where he has people with no coordination
and no skills do things like break pre -stressed
boards. And they've got like the face makeup
on now. And they've got all the outfits and things.
And he throws a pillow at them and they have
to avoid being hit by the pillow. I'm convinced
this is a spoof. I cannot believe in this day
and age. I mean, you know, 1993 was the paradigm
shift in martial arts with the advent of UFC
1. Certainly the modern martial arts scene. I
can't believe in this day and age people are
presenting that as... Serious. If they're presenting
it as fun, great. Do it. I've got no problem
with that because, again, people talk about validity
or authenticity of martial arts. Any martial
art is valid if it delivers what it's telling
you it will deliver. Now, not every martial art
is for self -defense. Some are for fitness. Some
are for fun. Some are for friends. Some are for
companionship. Some are literally just to get
you out of the house and have a bit of a giggle.
But they all then try and say, and we'll teach
you how to defend yourself. That's crap. Most
martial arts are not good at it. Self -protection,
because I don't like the... Self -defense is
a legal term. It's the defense against excessive
use of force. I was acting in self -defense.
Self -protection is a term I prefer to use because
it's more dynamic. I can take action to protect
myself without necessarily defending myself.
And it sounds semantic, but it's just a little
subtle mindset shift in the way we approach things.
I actually, the late great Peter Constantine
was actually the guy that taught me that term.
He actually passed away a couple of days ago,
actually, rest his soul. But he was who I got
that from, the idea of self -protection, because
it's a much more all -encompassing mindset. Now,
if I'm not pretending that I'm teaching you self
-defense, then it doesn't matter. Like, if you
look at Kyudo, which is Japanese archery, it's
a martial art. no use in self -defense whatsoever
there are some attributes you can pull from it
sure but you can pull attributes from you know
football soccer hockey whatever you want to do
um but if a martial art is saying we will teach
you to defend yourself you have to qualify that
throwing a punch in a kick isn't the same as
defending yourself so when you look at self -protection
and martial arts there's overlap but they're
not synonymous most instructors will put on a
pair of jeans and a t -shirt and then do a technique
and say oh this is the self -defense stuff we
do no that's martial arts in a pair of jeans
it's not the same thing it really isn't um and
this is again where the problems creep in for
the non -athletic people amongst us that gets
even bigger because again most people pitch martial
arts and self -defense training as if you've
got an elite athlete that you're training with
um and for ordinary people especially the older
ones that don't have an athletic background um
you have to have a prioritization matrix so awareness
and avoidance is your first thing be aware of
what's going on avoid going places where you
shouldn't be and verbal boundary settings so
learning again that communication piece and how
you you get that across movement and positional
habits what's your routine is it predictable
can you take safer routes to get places um simple
gross motor empty -handed skills i have a paradigm
from when i was training um on the uh paul vunak
um in pfs they had something called escape to
gain safety so it's what you want to do escape
is eyes gain is groin two is throat and safety
is shin so it's a paradigm you don't necessarily
need to have 20 000 techniques you remember those
are the targets that you hit and you can usually
cobble something together in some way shape or
form now i developed it way beyond the way PFS
still do that. It's a simplified thing that you
can remember easy under pressure. I've made it
a little bit more cohesive and I've tweaked that
a few times to the point where it's not even
recognizable. But again, you need to have something
that you can do. Then you need to do scenario
-based decision -making and then integrate the
tools like the firearms, like the blades. Because
people tend to be gear. oriented because that's
fun and i got new gear therefore you know i can
show it off or i can use it and become more effective
or whatever uh what type of martial arts implements
would you say you mentioned discrema but people
are generally going to walk around with a 24
inch stick um do you think that you know people
should consider to maybe augment their meager
or that was a mean thing to say Because I'm not
good either at this, but... They're less substantial
skill set? They're underdeveloped skill set.
Let's put it as underdeveloped skill set that
would be either, you know, hey, this is a really
good idea. Kubiton may be an example of that.
Or maybe there's ideas out there that, you know
what, this is just Hollywood and this is a really
bad idea, like walking around with a shuriken
or something like that, where, you know, it really
is like, really don't do that. Are there things
that fit either of those recommended categories
or please don't do this categories? My simple
guide is I'm very wary of anything which people
buy as a shortcut to judgment. Any tool has got
the inherent risk of encouraging overconfidence.
Wow, that was really good. It's hard to deploy
in distress. There's legal ambiguity. it can
become a liability depending on the jurisdictions
that you're in and likewise any training that
a lot of these tools will use is built on cooperation
fantasy timing or an assumption that you'll see
trouble coming so most products tend to work
better in the marketing video than they do in
sudden ugly and close range problems i so i'm
a little skeptical sometimes the other thing
is as well if you take a kubatan and there we
go I've actually got one on my desk. So take
a coup of time here. You don't want to know what
else I've got on my desk, I tell you. The problem
is I can give this to anyone and I can sort of
do that. So this on its own does nothing. I still
have to put the time and training with that for
that to be effective. I have to practice being
able to get it out. They used to do that. I never
liked this one. You know, you should say, put
your key between your knuckles. Yeah. Good way
to break your knuckles. I was going to say, that
looks like a trip to the hospital. It is, but
it's still taught. Put your car keys in there.
So, with any option, the option itself does nothing.
Hey, another good example. I've got a little
skin to hit. Is this inherently dangerous? The
audio show, tell people what you're holding.
A skin do. Sorry, it's a knife. It's basically
the ankle knife. A three and a half inch blade.
Yeah, it's a fixed blade. Very thin. It is sharp.
Designed to sit in the ankle and come out like
so. On its own, I'm going to put it on my desk.
It's not doing much, is it? It's useless on its
own. I have to do something with it. So when
we look at something like a knife or a gun. They're
a little easier to use to get an effect, but
it's still my ability to use it that's going
to count. Like you can buy a gun. If I can't
put a shot on target, it's useless. If I can't
draw it under pressure, it's useless. If I can't,
you know, clear a stoppage or whatever it is,
it's useless. And most of these force qualifiers
or amplifiers that they call them, I'd much rather
spend the time you spend. trying to use that,
you're better off just learning to throw a Dixon
punch because it'll serve you just as well. A
lot of them also, again, depending on the jurisdiction,
you carry anything in Canada for self -defense,
it's instantly illegal. Because of the intent,
because of the purpose. Yes, correction. Yeah,
correct rather. So what you do is you correct
that and you say, well, I carry this for, I've
got this wonderful ASP flashlight. um it's very
nice um but it's a flashlight but i can give
you a good clatter with it but the primary purpose
is not to clatter you it's a flashlight so i
can carry a flashlight i can carry anything i
can carry a knife as long as i've got a purpose
for the knife outside of defending myself with
it but even their context is king carrying a
knife that I say for box cutting or for operational
or at work is one thing. If I'm at a nightclub
at 3 o 'clock in the morning and I've got a cookery
strapped to my lower back, I'm going to run out
of reasons as to why I'm carrying that because,
again, the purpose is always context decided
to. Well, do simple implements or things that
are impromptu? I mean, you mentioned pepper spray.
I mean, pepper spray is deliberate, legal in
some places, not legal in others, but is, you
know, the glass on the bar. or things like that.
I mean, I'm not saying you're going to train
to break a bottle over someone's head, but are
sometimes those the most convenient or useful?
Expedient. They can be, but most people shred
their own hands. Well, I'm using the bottle as
the first thing that came to my mind. I'm with
you. We call those weapons of opportunity. Yes.
You're better off picking up a bar stool and
just holding that in front of you. Yeah. Use
it to create distance. See, that's the other
thing as well. You want to... buy yourself time
as much as anything else. And that's giving you
the pause to weigh the guy up. It's a really
weird little idiosyncrasy. If you actually stick
a barstool out the legs towards someone, they'll
always grab the barstool. It's not going to do
anything. But there's this psychological barrier.
It's just making it difficult to get around.
Believe it or not, something like I'm holding
up a pencil right now. If you've got a sharpened
pencil, I can think of a million reasons why
you would carry a pencil. I can also think of
some very soft, squishy areas that you can stick
the damn thing into, and I don't have to justify
any reason to carry a pencil. When I've had relatives
traveling, I have said, carry a mechanical pencil
with you, a mechanical pencil, a Pentel P205
or P207 mechanical pencil. You can use it for
a thousand things, writing yourself notes, have
it clipped to your shirt or your shirt pocket,
because it can be a wildly, you know... useful
tool if you're getting attacked so 100 but they
again you have to train with that yeah and the
training that people should consider is the stuff
that is for their body type age mobility issues
things like that are most effective or practical
and at the same time should give them those other
lower runs on the ladder of the escalation of
force In addition to the pepper spray or the
firearm. But how does someone choose? I mean,
you know, some of us are not going to ever learn
jujitsu. They're not going to learn anything
other. If they learn a martial art, it's probably
going to be striking based and not control based.
At my age, it's maybe Tai Chi. Do not underestimate
Tai Chi. My instructor is a Sifu Singh. Sifu
Harinda Singh is actually a Tai Chi. He's a Chan
Tai Chi master as well. His other arts, since
he's been doing Tai Chi, are up here. It's lifted
his game way beyond what he was doing with purely
the physical stuff. Tai Chi used to be a badass
art, and it still is if you find the right teachers.
But it takes a long, long time to get it to that
level. It's not an instant fix. Rather than think
of arts, think of gaps in your game. You don't
need to go and do jiu -jitsu six times a week
with the young pups. That's probably not a good
idea. But I suggest you do at least some time,
even if it's a few privates, with a good jiu
-jitsu coach just to give you an understanding
of what it's like to be on the ground. Because
you will always lose where you don't know. A
shark in the desert is knackered. It can't do
much. And a lion in the ocean will drown. you
need to at least have an awareness or to be able
to speak a little bit the language of where you're
going if the only thing you'd go with that jiu
jitsu guy for is to say i need to find the quickest
way to get back to my feet who gets up quicker
off the floor than a jiu jitsu guy not many maybe
a wrestler and a scramble but then you're looking
at massive athletic endeavors and i speak out
as a catch wrestler um so spend time there even
if you don't want to if nothing else Find the
cause of your own ignorance. Then look at what
can I do to strike? One of my private clients
is Canadian, but he's got CCW permits and things.
So I spend a lot of time doing blade and firearm
integration with him. He can't punch because
he's got arthritic wrists. So I teach him strikes.
There's some open -handed stuff and just some
distracting eye shots and things like that as
well. You don't need to win a fight. It's not
an MMA match. It's not a boxing match. You just
need to not lose it. You look to survive. You
look to enjoy. You look to go home. So when you
look at, and a strange thing as well, when you
look at self -defense, most people always assume
it's the strangest situations that we're talking
about here. And they're certainly the extreme
end of the scale. And most of the time they want
a victim, not an opponent. So if you've got even
a stab of ability in you that you can just make
life difficult for them, Sometimes you just need
to have enough to get your distance in there.
But most violence and most offensive situations
are most places that you find yourself will be
someone that you know. Wow. Never thought about
that. It is. But we prepare for the ninjas behind
the bus stops. We don't prepare for the, you
know, the family member or the friend or the
office worker or the people that we're not thinking
about. And that's where most confrontations are.
And that brings a whole new dynamic because maybe
now what you're willing to go to is a completely
different set of circumstances. That brings up,
there was one other question here that had dovetailed
into that perfectly. You had a recent video where
there was a perspective that you had on the,
is it worth it? And I think that that last part
really dovetails into that nicely because you
have to maybe think about, you know, the... The
consequences. I mean, there was another video
I was watching where someone used a weapon of
maybe it was at hand, although I don't really
understand why the guy's walking around with
a road flare and used a road flare to light his
opponent on fire. That was in Calgary. That was
a bit messed up. And I suppose that was a weapon
of opportunity. But the whole is it worth it
thing, when you bring in the perspective of you're
going to get in confrontation with people you
know. They all knew each other. They've been
friends and known each other a long time. Most
of the people involved in that. And it was over
a perceived slight or a short change or whatever.
The fight started. They were attacking the guy.
They went en masse to do it. And so he's like,
okay. Shot his flare gun, which you can buy in,
you know, a local sporting goods store, Canadian
Tire or Walmart. You can get them in the sporting
sections. It's not going to be good for you,
but it's not immediately lethal, so it'd probably
fall under the less lethal category. But it's
accessible, and it did what it needed to do.
It got the people off him. Now, did he have a
reason for carrying a flare gun? No. So he's
instantly going to have problems with that. But
it was that is -it -worth -it principle. I started
calling it the Jurassic Park principle, which
is Jeff Goldblum's line, you were so busy. wondering
if you could, you never stop to think if you
should. And if you can just keep that decision
point in you, just because I can, do I actually
need to? The video that I'm finding very divisive
of mine is there's the man with the young kid
that's just being bratty and hitting him and
just, and in the end the man shoves him and the
kid was skittling and hits the concrete and starts
like wailing. Now from a Schadenfreude perspective,
It's a fantastic video to watch because you're
like, yeah, he got it, got what he deserved.
Did he though? Because it's a kid at the end
of the day. You could shed your job on someone.
Just shut the door and walk in. But we always
have this sense of outrage and justice, which
tends to kick in. And that's when we find that
we can, we find ourselves acting out of emotion
and coming from positions of wanting to be right.
rather than actually being right and seeing what's
going on. Yeah. It's a lot of time to think about
being wrong, I suppose, on the other end of that.
So anything else you want to drop on us? You
know, any funny, you know, closer stories type
of thing, or also I do want you to, you know,
once again, kind of go through what your presence
is, even though you've already said it once,
but you know, how do people find you? How do
they find your material? How do you subscribe
for those so inclined? I mean, We could have
a nine hour show and you wouldn't go through
all your stories. I'm sure of that. No, definitely
not. I actually I did write a book called The
Houndstail, which is available on Amazon. Stories
of the journey from victim to teacher. And that's
got some some good anecdotes in there. Some are
serious. Some are actually funny, you know, things
I've done right. A lot of the things I did very
wrong and the lessons I learned along the way
from doing that. So the hard copies aren't available
yet. It's only an e -book format. But the hard
copies should hopefully be out within the next
two to three months. I'm available on Instagram
at Reality Check Jay. Reality Check with Jay
Cooper is my YouTube channel. And Reality Check
Academy is my Facebook page. um if anyone is
interested in you know talking further you can
reach me at um realitycheckacademy .com as well
as the website that's at the moment it's being
reconstructed but there is a contact form if
anyone wants to get a hold of me on that as well
but if you just type reality check with jay cooper
most of my stuff just pops up there um and the
budo brothers um bless their hearts they uh they
got their digital seminar platform and they sell
my stuff through them And they're good guys.
Their production content is second to none. They're
really good video producers. So it's nice to
be working with them. Okay. Any other funny story
for us before we close out today? Oh, my word.
I mean, I know you've got a thousand. Yeah. Which
one are you going to give us? That's the thing.
Give me something to fish with. So, you know,
throw some bait in the water and I'll see what
bites. Okay. It's a frugal firearms podcast.
So someone screwed up with a gun. Got any of
that? Um, or, or, or it's the frugal part. Let's,
let's lean on that. Someone spent a whole lot
of money on something that was completely ineffective
and they ended up with their butt. Oh, I got
a good one for that. Yeah. Yep. Boom. So it's
not necessarily found related, but when I was
working, I always like this story. This actually
speaks to criminal mindsets. And it actually
does tie in because it speaks to that overconfidence
piece. And we look at the tool and we look at
the weapon and we're like, I've got this, therefore
I'm good. So in one of the neighborhoods I worked
in Manchester, which is an urban place in England,
it's got some good areas and some not so good
areas. We had a spate of burglaries on patio
doors, you know, like the sliding glass doors.
what the little scamps were doing was they were
putting a crowbar on the rails levering the door
up and then just wheeling it off and then just
going in the houses and it was a very very common
mo so one of the guys he when we were doing neighborhood
inquiries he was like yeah i'll show you what
i've got with mine and he said so you got my
rail down here you look at that it's insulated
so you can't get a crowbar and it's tailed over
and i've got the hinges locked in there triple
stack locked on the inside of that so i've got
and he spent about an extra 2 000 pounds plus
on these like all singing all dancing so he's
like really going to town on these extra securities
patio doors so he's like you know you're not
you can't get them off you know so i'm going
to stop them getting in Literally a week later,
we got called to a burger at his house. They'd
hoisted a breeze block through the glass. Oops.
So he spent all this money on all these, like,
things to stop them doing what they were doing.
And they were just, okay, I'll do it anyway.
He just, like, breeze blocked it and just went
in quick and scattered out quick. So his complacency
came in by, you know, the gear, the stuff that
he'd done. He thought he was good to go. No,
it's a lot more than that. And I use the phrase
target hardening. You're never going to make
yourself unattackable, unbeatable, unkillable,
unhurtable or whatever. What you need to do is
make yourself a harder target. So make someone
else or something else an easier proposition.
Self -protection and the awareness piece starts
with us, first and foremost. Sun Tzu. If you
know yourself and know your enemy, you'll never
be defeated. If you know yourself but do not
know your enemy, you'll have 50 -50. If you neither
know yourself nor your enemy, you'll never taste
victory. And the only thing I have control over
in any given situation ultimately is myself.
So that's one of the joys of martial arts training
and preparedness. Prepared, not paranoid is the
watchword with it, but it gives you a much better
understanding of who you are. Jiu -Jitsu, if
you've never done it, will give you an understanding
of your panic reactions and your response on
the floor. If you've never been in a ring with
someone throwing punches at you, not necessarily
to hurt you badly, but certainly not to actually
land them on your face, get in there and do it.
It'll give you a good understanding of who you
are. We need to find ways to expose ourselves
to uncomfortable situations because adrenaline
is adrenaline and stress is stress. It's how
we respond to that stress that dictates the success
or failures in a given situation. So the more
we can expose ourselves to that, the better it
is. Excellent. That's a lot of wisdom right there
in that show. Yeah, that was great. So I want
to thank you, Jay, for coming on. It's been a
pleasure. It was fun, actually. I got shot by
as well. whenever I look at the clock about how
far in we are, it's like, man, we've been talking
for a while, but the content is so good. It does
seem to fly by really quickly. And the growth
in the audience is kind of demonstrating that
I guess the people who aren't even participating,
they're just listening and there's, and there's
more and more of them all the time. So, but again,
thanks very much, Jay. No, it's been a privilege.
Well, today we had an opportunity to talk to
Jay. Jay gave us a very interesting perspective
on martial arts. And he's got a wonderful channel
there on YouTube. I'd encourage everyone to take
a look at. And I think we had one of our best
shows we've had so far. Craig, what do you think?
I mean, it brought a different perspective that
we really haven't brought to the table yet. Because,
I mean, this is, okay, the Frugal Firearms podcast.
And this wasn't a very firearms. centric show
but it also brought to light maybe some of the
weaknesses that you know you and i share these
weaknesses can i'm not just you know dumping
on the audience here and saying that you know
they're weak and we're not all of us i think
haven't really thought about the totality of
the self -protection construct and you know the
one that really worried me the most was if something
happens so fast and i can't get that gun into
play I mean, the game could be over before I
ever have a chance. Oh, yeah. And that happens
in the real world. I mean, you'd say, well, I
got this really great holster and stuff like
that. It might not matter. If they got the drop
on you, the element of surprise is probably the
single greatest thing that can happen. But, you
know, again. If you do everything before that
where you don't go to dangerous areas, you watch
and maintain a high readiness and looking around
what's going on and so forth. And that should
be normal. That should be normal. Right. And
you should go through life uneventfully in this
regard. Yeah. And that's what we're after. And
if things get dicey, walk away if you can. Walk
away. Or run away if you must. Or run away. Yeah.
But I mean, I understand that his point about
you can't always protect yourself from every
threat. But you're right that that situational
awareness keeps you out of most of those threats.
And if you know, I think a lot of people have
gone to appendix carry because, you know, there
are ways to get to the gun a little quicker and
maybe in ways that a three o 'clock or four o
'clock carry doesn't do for you. It's not as
simple as that. That's too easy an answer. And
I'm kind of opposed to it. Also, appendix carry
does not work particularly well for people who
are a little bit rounder, who have a bit of a
muffin top, as they say. True that. True that.
It works for some people and not for others.
Not for others. So, hey, what do we have coming
up? Okay, getting back to product -related shows,
we have some very interesting ammunition that
we're going to be testing with Clear Ballistics
Gel. I think it's going to be very eye -opening.
We're going to have the CEO of that company on.
We have two different types of targets. One of
them is one that is supposed to basically last
you forever because it self -repairs. We have
another show coming up, at least probably actually
several shows on suppressors. You know, I saw
an interesting statistic on suppressors the other
day. Between 1968 and 2024, I think. The number
of Form 4s that were filled out, in other words,
people buying a suppressor, was like 3 million.
In the last three months, it's been about 1 .5
million. Absolutely. There's a $0 tax stamp on
it. I would encourage anybody in a state that
allows you to own a suppressor, which to me is
safety. 42 of them. 42, which is to me, safety
equipment. Yeah. Go out and your next purchase
should not be a firearm. Your next purchase should
be a suppressor. Right. And so we're going to
have a couple of shows on that. They're going
to be different. They're not just going to be
the same show repeated. It's going to be different
price points of different companies. And then
one of them is going to be a person who sits
on the American Suppressor Association board,
who's going to talk about. that. There's going
to be an upcoming show from, hopefully, I think
I got this dialed in, from kniferights .org,
which is out there fighting for the underappreciated
truth that, you know, people think about 2A and
they think about only in the gun context. You
know, there's a knife context to that too, and
that's been underappreciated. So we're going
to talk about that as well. Oh, holsters. We
were talking about that before the show. Indeed.
A couple of different holster manufacturers that
we're going to be featuring. Yep. But how do
you get these people to show up? You guys, in
other words, all y 'all out there in the listening
community need to subscribe. You need to share
it. Please share because that's how we're getting
our growth. You know, put down a like here and
there because that's super easy for you. Very
little effort, but it really helps us grow the
audience. But there's one other thing, which
is, you know, do your own research, guys. We
talked to Jay here for quite a long discussion
about. you know, the training and stuff he recommends,
find out the best trainers, find out the best
equipment, find all that stuff, do your homework
and, and find what's right for you. Because our
answer, you know, might not fit your reality,
right? Indeed. Well, thank you everyone for dialing
in and listening to us. And we will, we'll be
back again soon with another show. Exactly. Good
night, folks. I should be in Laguna Beach in
July to train my teacher. Did you say to train
your teacher? No, train with my teacher. Oh,
I think it's to train your teacher. I do actually
teach him some stuff. How does that work? No,
I have done that as well. He does it, take ideas
off me, normally on how to creatively swear at
people in high -stress situations. You got one
of those voices, Ken. You could do like... Ken,
you could do soothing nighttime relaxing. Just
like, hello, ladies and gentlemen. Hello, ladies
and gentlemen. Thank you for tuning in this evening.
There you go. Yes. That's what I'm talking about.
You just go to sleep with that chocolatey voice
just washing over my soul. You do understand
that for audience capture and retention, I don't
want him putting the audience to sleep? I know
that. Is that why you keep editing him out? There
you go.