WEBVTT

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If I had shot every person that I had a legal

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right to shoot, I'd be way ahead of Hickok's

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record or John Wesley Harden's record. And most

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law enforcement officers are like that. Welcome

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to episode 28 of the Frugal Firearms podcast,

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the podcast that is designed from the ground

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up to help you get the most for your shooting

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dollar. And along the lines of that, you know,

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information is a great thing to have. And sometimes

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it's really good to go back to an old timer who,

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you know, understands the history of why we're

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in this and what we get out of it and can tell

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those interesting, entertaining, but valuable

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stories. that really provide the culture that

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we all live in. So I'm Craig. I'm your host.

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Ken is my co -host. Good afternoon, Ken. How

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are you? Doing well. I'm doing very well. I'm

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glad we're going to have a great show here today.

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Appreciate everyone who's tuning in to listen.

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So off we go. Exactly. And today we have Sheriff

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Jim is joining us. He is primarily responsible

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for a site called Gun Tales, and it has some...

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amazing reading on it. And it's for people who

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are more cerebral and actually want to not spend

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three seconds learning something on TikTok and

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then move, you know, swipe to the next thing.

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But people who really want to understand gun

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culture, Sheriff Jim here is absolutely a wonderful

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resource. I'm so thankful that he reached out

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to us to get on the show. So Jim, welcome to

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the show. Tell us who you are, what you're about,

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how you got there. Well, thank you, Craig. It's

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good to be with you guys today. My background

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is in law enforcement. I spent about 30 years

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as a Texas peace officer. The last eight years

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was as the elected sheriff of a county down on

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the Rio Grande. And about 1990, I guess, I started

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writing for the gun magazines. And after I retired,

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well, that's kind of become my second job is

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writing for gun magazines. And Gun Tales was

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kind of a... a spinoff from that. So that's kind

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of where I'm at. I've been with the Peterson's

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publications, Guns and Ammo, Handguns, Shooting

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Times, the NRA magazines. So quite a few of the

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magazines and stuff in our industry. How many

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articles do you think you've written over your

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career, sir? I mean, I know that it's got to

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be numerous. Well, I... Typical cop, I was looking

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for a moonlighting job. And so I thought, well,

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I can write magazine articles maybe while I'm

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at home with my radio nearby in case I get called

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out. And actually, I wrote two articles. And

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just sent them in on the blind to Jan Librell,

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who was the editor of Peterson's Handguns. And

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believe it or not, Jan bought both of the articles.

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And so that kind of got me started. As to how

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many I've written, I have no idea. When you start

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out, you know, as you know, you're just kind

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of... pitch the articles to whichever magazine

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you think will buy them. And eventually editors

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get to know you and they'll start calling you

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and suggest articles. So that was kind of the

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process that I went through. So I did mention

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up front, your last name is Wilson. So it really

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is probably Sheriff Jim Wilson. And you do have

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a YouTube channel. And I did find a lot of the

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videos, even though they're not new, but they're

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kind of timeless, you know, very short, very

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to the point. But on your Gun Tales site, you

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have a little moniker there, a little symbol.

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And that symbol contains a revolver. Correct.

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So I understand. on good authority, that you

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are a revolver -focused person. And I thought,

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you know, and I know my co -host Ken is very

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revolver -focused too. So I'm going to let you

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guys banter back and forth a little bit on the

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whole topic of revolvers and maybe how they fit

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in the space and the modern usage, because I

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think some people are going to look at it and

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think, well, I can carry, you know, 17 rounds

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in, you know, this semi -auto or, you know, in

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some semi -autos, you're now approaching 20 rounds.

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Why is the revolver still relevant? And tell

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us a little stories about your experience with

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revolvers, both of you guys. Well, you know,

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when I started out in police work, we were required

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to carry revolvers. And I carried the Smith &

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Wesson Model 19 for a number of years. I didn't

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switch to automatics until I started running

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the narcotics unit. And I switched to a 1911,

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primarily a Commander. But, yeah, my heart's

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always been with revolvers. I enjoy them, especially

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like single -action revolvers for hunting and

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general woods bumming and that sort of thing.

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So I'm not anti -autos, but I guess my heart

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really is with revolvers. Maybe Ken can understand

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that. You know, I definitely understand that.

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I mean, the first gun I went out and bought over,

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what, 45 years ago or something like that was

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a, and I did it because I saw some movies, of

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course, you know. I bought a Smith & Wesson Model

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629. Sure. 44 Magnum, 8 3⁄8 -inch barrel. Why?

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I'd just seen one of the Dirty Harry movies,

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and I thought it was cool. That was not why I

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got into firearms. But when I decided to go out

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and buy my first revolver, I go, I'm going to

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get that one. And I've enjoyed it for a lot of

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these many years. It's still a great firearm.

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I mean, it looks almost as new today. I keep

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it in really nice shape. It's not a safe queen.

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It stays at home all the time. It goes out regularly

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and gets exercise. But it's a wonderful, wonderful

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firearm. So I'm an iron sights guy. and revolver

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guy going way back. Um, and I, and I kind of

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kicked myself cause I, I remember the price I

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paid for my one. It was $242 back in the day.

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Yeah. I wish I could do another, another dozen

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of those at that price, you know? Isn't that

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the truth? When I started out, uh, I actually

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wanted a four inch Python, but they were $125.

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And the, uh, Four -inch Model 19, I think I bought

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for $87. Oh, my. You want to put a year on that,

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Jim? About when was that? 1968 is when I put

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a badge on for the first time. Okay. Yeah, with

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me, I didn't buy my first until about, what,

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1979 or 80, somewhere in that range. Ken, you're

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talking about the 629. Yeah, the 629, yeah. It

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wasn't Dirty Harry that got me. It was Elmer

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Keith that got me. Absolutely. So I had to have

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a four -inch Model 29. And that taught me a lot.

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The main thing it taught me is that I was never

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going to be Elmer Keith Jr. And I simply, I couldn't

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do very well with that gun, with Elmer Keith's

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loads or full magnums, if I had to switch back

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to .44 Special. to really be able to do fast

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work with it, fast shooting with it. But the

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.44 Magnum is still one of my favorites. I'm

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just not much of a hand with that Model 29. Yeah,

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I mean, I have never been Alaska salmon fishing,

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but if I did, I'm pretty sure that that model

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629 would be in a chest holster rig with me out

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there when I'm out there fishing, just in case

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a grizzly come up behind me wanting my fish,

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you know? Yeah, yeah. I had a situation where

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my first revolver was a Smith & Wesson Model

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625. Now, what's that? That is a .45 ACP revolver.

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And I think there's probably some people in the

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audience are going, what? Why would you use a

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.45 ACP in a revolver? Well, you know, it was

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also, I wouldn't say it was a mistake to buy

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it, but it was based on a certain degree of ignorance,

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I suppose. in the sense that I read an article

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and it was so compelling about what a great revolver

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this thing is. And it was written by a guy named

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Aaron Zellman, who I think has passed on quite

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some time ago. He was a very big person in the

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gun community back in the day. And he's also

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a gunsmith. So he talked about the modifications

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that he did. So I bought the gun, basically put

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it back in the box and sent it away. And I sent

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it to him. uh to get cut down because it was

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a longer barrel initially and it was also cut

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down to a four inch and he left the end of the

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crown yeah left the crown not blued so that it's

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very apparent that you know if you're pointing

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at something that if it can understand this it

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sees a very big hole in the middle of a bright

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silver circle and that thing had just the most

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amazing trigger job oh yeah Ken may or may not

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wish to tell a story about how good this is.

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No, I'm not going to tell the story. Okay, we're

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not going to tell the story. No, we're not going

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to tell that story. But I will tell you, I really

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love that revolver of his. Took moon clips, 45

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ACP moon clips. First revolver I'd ever seen

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that. Yeah, for full moon clips. Which is a very

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efficient way to load a revolver. So, Jim, I

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mean, if you're, let's say. You've got decades

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of experience with these things. When you were

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law enforcement, how often did you face a situation?

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Or maybe you can tell us some stories about law

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enforcement encounters where the gun came out

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of the holster. Did you ever have to reload?

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Did you fumble your rounds and drop them on the

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floor and scraping them up? Or was that just

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never really a realistic thing? Give us some

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stories. It wasn't for me. I never did have to

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reload. And that's a point that I make with our

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armed citizens, is that most of the time you

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don't have to reload. Now, our law enforcement

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people may get in that situation, but the average

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citizen bad guy encounter is going to be probably

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three shots at about three yards in about three

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seconds. Yep. And then it'll be over. That's

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an easy one to remember, too. Three shots, three

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yards, three seconds. Now, how does that differ

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from your experience as a law enforcement officer?

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Because you have to run toward the trouble, right?

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Not away from the trouble. We run to the gunfire,

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and the smart citizen goes the opposite direction.

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To me, now as an armed citizen myself, my handgun,

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is my exit ticket. I'm going to be trying to

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leave. Right. And I will use my handgun if I'm

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threatened while I'm trying to leave. The one

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exception would be if, you know, somebody was

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after my family or a close family member that

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I might have to go into it. But my first thought

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as an armed citizen is to get away from the threat.

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I agree completely, and I think most CCW carriers

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would say the same. It's only in those extremely

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rare situations where you're forced to step forward

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and do something that you do it. I would agree,

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though. Retreat is always the best, if possible.

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Exactly. That ought to be our mindset. Now, again,

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we may have to deal with something different,

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but our mindset ought to be, okay, this is a

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bad deal. How do I get out of it? Right. So do

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you still provide training to civilians? I do.

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I haven't done much lately in the last year,

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but up until that time, I've taught, I'll teach

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three or four classes a year, either here locally

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or in the general area, somewhere in the southwest.

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Where exactly are you located? I mean, if people

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did want to do train with you, where do you train?

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I'm located in what we call the Big Bend country

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of West Texas. If you look at a Texas map, down

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the lower left side looks like a boot heel. We

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call that the Big Bend country of the Rio Grande.

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It's the only mountains in Texas, as a matter

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of fact. But it's part of the Chihuahuan Desert.

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It's open. It's big ranch country, small towns,

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and big ranch country. I've driven across Texas,

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but never as far south as that area. Yeah. So

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maybe someday. You would have probably crossed

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on I -10 coming out of California. And we're

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just below I -10. Yeah, Texas is an amazingly

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huge, huge location. I mean, when you're in West

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Texas, when I'm driving across Highway 10 in

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West Texas, I swear to you, you can sit there

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and I go, I haven't moved the steering wheel

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in an hour. That's exactly. It's exactly perfectly

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straight, you know, and you're just on cruise

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control and you're just going. And so it's amazing.

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Yeah. Then you finally get into more and more

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of a Eastern Texas, you get rolling hills and

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stuff like that. Well, you need to stop occasionally,

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get some West Texas barbecue. So we're not going

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to like, I mean, there are reasons to turn right

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to get, you know, or left depending on where

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the barbecue place is, but you're not going to,

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you're not going to pass that up. I hope. Do

00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:31.019
you find yourself now focusing more on, well,

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tell the listeners about, your model for Gun

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Tales is a little different. It's a subscription

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-based service. It's not just a bunch of free

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blog out there. And that's because it appears,

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at least tell me if I'm wrong about this, you

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have no advertising. So you're supporting the

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site by subscription, but I am still recommending

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that people do that because the quality of the

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content there. Tell us about what kind of stuff

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you put up there and what people can expect.

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Well, our idea for Gun Tales goes back to 30

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years ago or so when the gun magazines and outdoor

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magazines were as much about entertainment as

00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.500
they were about information. If you think about

00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:18.100
it, back in the day, you'd run out to the mailbox

00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:21.429
to get your magazine so you could read. the latest

00:15:21.429 --> 00:15:25.169
Jack O 'Connor hunting story or Elmer Keith or

00:15:25.169 --> 00:15:28.970
Skeeter Skelton or some of those guys, they told

00:15:28.970 --> 00:15:35.210
us stories. Now, you might have a Jack O 'Connor

00:15:35.210 --> 00:15:39.769
sheep hunt story and realize halfway through

00:15:39.769 --> 00:15:41.990
there that what he's really doing is out test

00:15:41.990 --> 00:15:46.710
firing a new Winchester rifle. But they didn't

00:15:46.710 --> 00:15:51.500
do... Kind of the gun test format like you see

00:15:51.500 --> 00:15:55.440
today. Right, right. And I've always maintained

00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:59.700
that most of us read those magazines for as much

00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:03.580
for entertainment as we do for information. Absolutely.

00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:06.419
Skeeter Skelton was great. Skeeter would have

00:16:06.419 --> 00:16:09.980
some story about something on the border or old

00:16:09.980 --> 00:16:13.299
Mexico. And a week later, you'd go back and dig

00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:15.919
through the same story to get that hand load

00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.990
that he told you about. And so they serve two

00:16:20.990 --> 00:16:24.649
purposes. Now, I'm not going to criticize our

00:16:24.649 --> 00:16:29.149
modern magazines. They do what they need to do.

00:16:29.549 --> 00:16:32.509
But we just felt like there's a market for people

00:16:32.509 --> 00:16:36.710
that like a good story. So what we try to do

00:16:36.710 --> 00:16:40.409
is combine. We may tell you the history of some

00:16:40.409 --> 00:16:44.009
old gun, or we may talk about hunting techniques.

00:16:46.700 --> 00:16:49.919
purpose is to entertain you while we're doing

00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:53.139
that. Yeah, I think that's a unique space to

00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:56.240
be in because now entertainment seems to be,

00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.440
I hate to say it, but focused on the short attention

00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:05.740
span crowd. And then the other part that's important,

00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.440
I think, to understand is that a lot, like you

00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:11.480
said, a lot of the current gun magazines are

00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:14.200
exceptionally technical. Like, you know, they'll

00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:20.609
tell you about Every little part inside the gun,

00:17:20.650 --> 00:17:23.869
it's a little bit like, this gets dry really

00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:27.470
fast. I mean, really fast. Exactly. You're exactly

00:17:27.470 --> 00:17:31.990
right. Anyway, that was our thought. And as we

00:17:31.990 --> 00:17:36.289
started Gun Tales and we began to get the subscribers,

00:17:36.589 --> 00:17:38.769
we realized that there are a whole lot of people

00:17:38.769 --> 00:17:43.450
out there that feel that way. And so we've been...

00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:47.450
We've been in operation a little over a year,

00:17:47.569 --> 00:17:52.410
and we're very pleased. It's still growing. We're

00:17:52.410 --> 00:17:56.670
still coming up with ideas and so forth. And

00:17:56.670 --> 00:18:01.009
we try to teach, not teach, we try to expose

00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:05.789
you to the more practical things. In my view,

00:18:05.970 --> 00:18:08.730
and this goes back to personal defense that we

00:18:08.730 --> 00:18:11.589
were talking a minute ago too, it's not so much

00:18:11.589 --> 00:18:13.710
what you carry, it's what you can do with it.

00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:16.660
Can you run with that a little bit? Maybe by

00:18:16.660 --> 00:18:20.099
virtue of talking about where people have got

00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:24.220
that wrong. Like they Gucci out the gun and they've

00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:26.460
got, you know, a race gun that they're carrying

00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:30.240
actually as an everyday carry gun, but can't

00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.700
hit the side of a barn. Exactly. Exactly. And

00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:39.829
we focus on guns and gear. For personal defense,

00:18:40.109 --> 00:18:42.490
when we really ought to be focusing on awareness,

00:18:42.630 --> 00:18:46.529
mindset, and tactics. Because all of those are

00:18:46.529 --> 00:18:49.329
more important than what you're carrying. And

00:18:49.329 --> 00:18:52.009
you guys know, you've seen it on the internet.

00:18:53.369 --> 00:18:56.190
The guy, he'll come out, I just bought a brand

00:18:56.190 --> 00:19:01.309
new Brand X pistol. What accessories should I

00:19:01.309 --> 00:19:05.119
put on it? He posts that kind of question on

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:07.980
the Internet. And my first thought is the accessory

00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:11.599
you need to do is practice ammo. Oh, my God.

00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.859
This is so good. I'm so glad you're on the show.

00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:19.619
That's the greatest accessory you can get is

00:19:19.619 --> 00:19:23.859
practice ammo. And then maybe instead of buying

00:19:23.859 --> 00:19:27.779
that second or third new gun, maybe you ought

00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:31.369
to take that money and go. book a class at gun

00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:34.569
site or thunder ranch and actually learn how

00:19:34.569 --> 00:19:37.390
to shoot the ones you've already got did that

00:19:37.390 --> 00:19:41.049
used to be the ethic or the practice in the gun

00:19:41.049 --> 00:19:44.089
community and that has changed or has it just

00:19:44.089 --> 00:19:47.329
been we've been deficient in that all along i

00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:50.269
think we've i think we've been that way to a

00:19:50.269 --> 00:19:53.309
certain extent all along and there again the

00:19:53.309 --> 00:19:56.869
gun magazines i think unintentionally but they've

00:19:56.869 --> 00:20:00.049
caused that because their focus is on the new

00:20:00.049 --> 00:20:03.910
guns or this new sight or this new holster. And

00:20:03.910 --> 00:20:07.650
we come along and read those, and I think, well,

00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:10.170
that's all I need to do is put these new sights

00:20:10.170 --> 00:20:13.410
and this new set of stocks on my pistol, and

00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:17.150
I'll be another Jerry Mikulak. Well, I suppose

00:20:17.150 --> 00:20:21.529
that taking their perspective as a business,

00:20:21.589 --> 00:20:24.309
selling a product, it kind of makes sense. Exactly.

00:20:25.390 --> 00:20:29.390
So I can't criticize that, but there's a proportion

00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:32.789
here. And I think that Ken and I have talked

00:20:32.789 --> 00:20:35.150
about the value of training in the past. And

00:20:35.150 --> 00:20:39.349
for example, I'm going to TACCON in March, which

00:20:39.349 --> 00:20:42.349
is a little bit of a potpourri, sort of a mousse

00:20:42.349 --> 00:20:45.769
bouche of various trainers. It's like a little

00:20:45.769 --> 00:20:49.329
sampler plate of what you can get out of different

00:20:49.329 --> 00:20:53.789
perspectives. But at that event, I see that there

00:20:53.789 --> 00:20:56.710
are... sometimes not only differing perspectives,

00:20:56.829 --> 00:20:59.069
but diametrically opposed perspectives. Like,

00:20:59.130 --> 00:21:01.690
you know, one guy will say do one, and the other

00:21:01.690 --> 00:21:04.549
one will say do the opposite of that technique.

00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:08.269
Do you see that in, or do you think that there

00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:11.769
are absolutes in gun training, or is it sort

00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:16.269
of what works for the customer? Well, I think,

00:21:16.309 --> 00:21:21.509
and most of my experience has been with gun sight

00:21:21.509 --> 00:21:24.430
and with Thunder Range. with what is essentially

00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:28.970
the modern technique of the pistol. And I think

00:21:28.970 --> 00:21:33.789
that a lot of those techniques have been passed

00:21:33.789 --> 00:21:38.630
on because they work. Now, I don't think any

00:21:38.630 --> 00:21:43.069
of that is written in stone, but I would say

00:21:43.069 --> 00:21:45.630
that that's a good place to start, if that makes

00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:51.309
sense. Let's say I go take a .250 pistol class

00:21:51.309 --> 00:21:54.130
at gun sight. That's just a really good start.

00:21:54.250 --> 00:21:59.230
That's a good foundation for me. And I may, then

00:21:59.230 --> 00:22:02.069
whether or not I later use the Weaver stance

00:22:02.069 --> 00:22:06.349
or the isosceles stance, that's no big deal.

00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:10.089
You know, it's whatever works for me, but I have

00:22:10.089 --> 00:22:13.289
that foundation where I started and that's the

00:22:13.289 --> 00:22:17.529
important thing. Do you think then that a lot

00:22:17.529 --> 00:22:20.549
of the current, I think the training has probably

00:22:20.549 --> 00:22:24.730
become. Maybe, you know, having not been in the

00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:28.130
space as long as you, is training becoming more

00:22:28.130 --> 00:22:33.109
tactical? And if so, is it because it's more

00:22:33.109 --> 00:22:36.210
driven by people who are former military, who

00:22:36.210 --> 00:22:39.430
have a different mission set than law enforcement

00:22:39.430 --> 00:22:42.049
or a different mission set than the civilian

00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:45.569
defender? You know, I've seen that be a problem,

00:22:45.670 --> 00:22:47.990
but I don't necessarily think it's a universal

00:22:47.990 --> 00:22:51.880
problem. The training has evolved, and I think

00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:56.599
most of it's probably good. For example, we used

00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:00.299
to teach if you had to engage a target behind

00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:03.960
you, let's say a bad guy approaches you from

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.960
directly behind, that you simply turned and immediately

00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:12.180
presented your pistol on the target. That's assuming

00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:14.539
that it really is a bad guy. What if it was a

00:23:14.539 --> 00:23:19.299
police officer? So what we're teaching now is

00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:23.000
that before you turn and point the gun, you turn

00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:27.259
your head and, if possible, get an eyeball on

00:23:27.259 --> 00:23:31.259
what is behind you. Then, if necessary, you complete

00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:35.220
the turn and present your pistol. Right. That

00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:38.059
makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Now, I get approached

00:23:38.059 --> 00:23:40.980
by a lot of people who are interested in firearms

00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:44.579
for the first time. And, you know, if they walk

00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:47.980
into your typical gun store, It just seems like

00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:49.500
everybody behind the counter is going to immediately

00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:52.259
point them over to buying some new, you know,

00:23:52.259 --> 00:23:54.279
semi -automatic pistol. Again, I got nothing

00:23:54.279 --> 00:23:58.279
against semi -autos, but I typically tell first

00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.279
-time people, no, you probably want to start

00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:05.900
with a revolver because they're absolutely simpler

00:24:05.900 --> 00:24:10.180
to operate. They go bang pretty much every time

00:24:10.180 --> 00:24:15.980
you squeeze the trigger. And if later on you

00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.539
want to buy a second gun and move on to an automatic

00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:21.279
and more training and more comfort with it, I'm

00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.740
all for that. But a lot of people, I just tell

00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:27.220
them to start. Would you agree with that recommendation?

00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:31.019
If so, what would you recommend? Well, I think

00:24:31.019 --> 00:24:34.960
you're exactly right, Ken. The revolver is easier

00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:39.220
to understand. I think it's easier for the new

00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:44.700
person to operate. The beauty of the revolver,

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.380
too, is it requires very little maintenance.

00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:51.200
You know, we've all heard stories of people that

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.819
buy a revolver, load it up, put it in a desk

00:24:54.819 --> 00:24:58.579
drawer, and 20 years from now take it out, and

00:24:58.579 --> 00:25:00.779
not only does the gun still work, but the ammo

00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:05.519
still fires. So I think there's a lot to be said

00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.480
for revolvers. Now, some people might find them...

00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:14.210
Let me back up. I think they're easy to shoot.

00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:19.009
They may not be as easy to shoot well, if that

00:25:19.009 --> 00:25:22.609
makes sense. Some people may need to work a little

00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:28.069
harder to develop their skills with the revolver.

00:25:28.230 --> 00:25:31.769
But I don't think there's anything wrong with

00:25:31.769 --> 00:25:34.390
the revolver, for the armed citizen especially.

00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:38.460
I know. I would tend to agree with that. I mean,

00:25:38.500 --> 00:25:40.819
and one of the things that I have, I'm kind of

00:25:40.819 --> 00:25:47.200
a fan of this revolvers that are in the 327 Federal

00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.670
Chambering. And I know .327 Federal is a pretty

00:25:51.670 --> 00:25:56.730
hot load, but it's a .32. And typically, there's

00:25:56.730 --> 00:25:58.269
nothing wrong with .38 Special, and that really

00:25:58.269 --> 00:26:01.410
used to be my standard go -to. But for a lot

00:26:01.410 --> 00:26:03.869
of people that I come across who are first -time

00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:06.670
shooters who I know are going to buy exactly

00:26:06.670 --> 00:26:09.970
one firearm in their entire life. They're going

00:26:09.970 --> 00:26:11.869
to buy it, and they're going to practice with

00:26:11.869 --> 00:26:13.309
it, and they're going to lock it in their lockbox

00:26:13.309 --> 00:26:16.660
at home, and they're only going to own one. And

00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:18.920
I don't know if they're going to age over time.

00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.579
So, okay, well, the nice thing about the .327

00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:25.400
Federal is it's a snappy round. It's loud. It's

00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.839
high pressure. It's a lot of power. But that's

00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.880
okay. You don't have to use that. I mean, you

00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:32.059
can if you think that's what you want. Get a

00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:34.519
few. Get a box of it. Try it out too much. Then

00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.019
you can back down to the .32 H &R Magnum. Try

00:26:38.019 --> 00:26:40.440
that. That's probably a really good round. There's

00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:43.059
a lot of nice self -defense loadings that are

00:26:43.059 --> 00:26:45.440
out there from the major ammunition manufacturers.

00:26:46.299 --> 00:26:49.000
And you can even step down from that to the .32

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.319
Smith & Wesson Long, which used to be the standard

00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.859
police firearm, I think up through like 1900

00:26:55.859 --> 00:27:00.119
to like 1930 or something like that. A lot of

00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.200
police officers carried .32 Smith & Wesson Long.

00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.839
And then you can also fire .32 Smith & Wesson

00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.180
Short, which came out in the 1880s. You almost

00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:11.180
never find boxes of that, but it would chamber

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:13.720
it if you found it. And you can also chamber

00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:19.619
.32 ACP, because .32 ACP is a semi -rimmed cartridge,

00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:23.640
and it will actually fit in one of the chambers

00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.519
for the .327 Federal and fire. Accuracy will

00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:28.240
probably be a little bit, because the bullets

00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.099
will be bouncing down the cylinder until it hits

00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:33.619
the rifling. But, you know, again, in a self

00:27:33.619 --> 00:27:37.079
-defensive situation, three yards, and you're

00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:39.180
probably going to be fine. What are your thoughts

00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:41.650
on that? I'm just curious of your opinion. Well,

00:27:41.730 --> 00:27:44.210
I think you're exactly right. And if you think

00:27:44.210 --> 00:27:47.069
about it, that's exactly what we used to do with

00:27:47.069 --> 00:27:51.450
the .357 Magnum. And I still recommend that as

00:27:51.450 --> 00:27:56.750
well. You buy a .357 Magnum revolver, you can

00:27:56.750 --> 00:28:00.849
shoot Magnums, you can shoot Plus P .38, you

00:28:00.849 --> 00:28:03.910
can shoot Standard Velocity .38, or you can even

00:28:03.910 --> 00:28:07.829
shoot Target Wad Cutter .38. So you have a real...

00:28:09.549 --> 00:28:14.529
range of power that you can choose from. You

00:28:14.529 --> 00:28:19.369
may want to load your gun with magnums, but grandma's

00:28:19.369 --> 00:28:22.410
gun probably ought to be loaded with target wad

00:28:22.410 --> 00:28:27.450
cutters. But the beauty of it is, especially

00:28:27.450 --> 00:28:32.730
in a family situation, you buy several of the

00:28:32.730 --> 00:28:38.109
same gun. But you may load your personal gun

00:28:38.109 --> 00:28:41.769
with one load. Your wife may load her gun with

00:28:41.769 --> 00:28:43.829
another load that she's more comfortable with.

00:28:44.009 --> 00:28:47.269
And that's another one of the values of the revolver

00:28:47.269 --> 00:28:51.289
right there. They're not tied to a certain power

00:28:51.289 --> 00:28:56.910
level in their ammunition like the auto is. That's

00:28:56.910 --> 00:29:00.210
a great point. Yeah, and your typical 9mm is

00:29:00.210 --> 00:29:03.289
really run a whole lot of choices. You have 9mm

00:29:03.289 --> 00:29:05.630
and then usually plus P. You get some bullet

00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:08.890
weight differences and stuff like that, but they're

00:29:08.890 --> 00:29:11.329
all roughly the same amount of recoil for the

00:29:11.329 --> 00:29:16.109
most part. Sure. Yeah. Jim, did you find that

00:29:16.109 --> 00:29:20.690
in a law enforcement application that certain

00:29:20.690 --> 00:29:24.950
calibers, there's actually two things I want

00:29:24.950 --> 00:29:27.859
to ask. Let's just since I introduced the caliber

00:29:27.859 --> 00:29:30.519
question first, would you say that there's a

00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.339
minimum that you would consider adequate for

00:29:34.339 --> 00:29:36.980
personal? Well, maybe you can divide that, too,

00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:38.960
because there's handgun hunters out there. Right.

00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:41.759
So you could say for handgun hunting purposes

00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:45.039
and then for my focus is more on self -defense

00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:47.519
purposes, sort of a minimum that be acceptable.

00:29:47.619 --> 00:29:50.539
And then on the other end of that scale, is there

00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:53.170
basically something that's. Overkill, like you

00:29:53.170 --> 00:29:55.589
never need this, like a .50 cal or something

00:29:55.589 --> 00:29:59.650
like that. Well, I don't have a lot of experience

00:29:59.650 --> 00:30:03.970
with the .327 like Ken mentioned. What I hear

00:30:03.970 --> 00:30:07.509
about it, I hear very good things. But I always

00:30:07.509 --> 00:30:12.670
recommended .38 Special as being the bottom floor

00:30:12.670 --> 00:30:17.579
for personal defense. and then move up to there

00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:20.819
depending on your skill ability if you're you

00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:23.480
know willing to practice and handle the magnums

00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:27.460
or you might go to 44 special or some of the

00:30:27.460 --> 00:30:32.400
other more powerful cartridges i think when in

00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.079
terms of personal defense when you get up to

00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:40.789
like 41 magnum or 44 magnum That really limits

00:30:40.789 --> 00:30:43.910
the number of people that can truly handle them

00:30:43.910 --> 00:30:50.049
in a defensive situation. We want to at least

00:30:50.049 --> 00:30:54.269
deliver two shots to the bad guy. And two fast

00:30:54.269 --> 00:31:00.549
shots with a .44 Magnum can be a challenge. I'm

00:31:00.549 --> 00:31:03.069
not able to do that with a double -action .44.

00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:07.490
I've got to move back to .44 Special to be able

00:31:07.490 --> 00:31:11.690
to do it. So you find the power level that you're

00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:14.930
able to manage the gun to shoot it quickly and

00:31:14.930 --> 00:31:18.509
accurately. And that may be different for you

00:31:18.509 --> 00:31:21.750
than for me. Right. I would completely agree

00:31:21.750 --> 00:31:24.779
with that. If you're going to be doing carrying

00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:27.000
something for self -defense, it's the, it's the

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.240
gun that's going to be convenient for you to

00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.680
carry. So. Great point. Great point. Yeah. Some

00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:34.960
of them are, you know, relatively heavy, you

00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.819
know, and you don't want to carry it. It's just

00:31:36.819 --> 00:31:39.480
too heavy on your hip or too heavy here. But

00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:43.579
there's been some really great, um, lightweight

00:31:43.579 --> 00:31:45.619
revolvers that are out there that I really like.

00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:51.109
I like the. Ruger LCR, light compact revolver.

00:31:51.250 --> 00:31:54.309
Right. And LCRX, which is the same thing except

00:31:54.309 --> 00:31:57.630
it has the exposed hammer. I have both versions

00:31:57.630 --> 00:31:59.950
of those, and they come in numerous calibers.

00:32:00.049 --> 00:32:04.269
From .22 long rifle, not totally recommended

00:32:04.269 --> 00:32:06.309
for self -defense, but if that's all you can

00:32:06.309 --> 00:32:09.869
handle, it's better than nothing. I mean, they

00:32:09.869 --> 00:32:11.930
always say, what's the best gun to have in a

00:32:11.930 --> 00:32:16.299
gunfight? The one you brought with you. One of

00:32:16.299 --> 00:32:18.960
the nice things about the LCR is it is lightweight,

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.259
and people who carry it, you get to the point

00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:24.980
you don't even notice you're carrying it. I know

00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:29.009
Smith & Wesson has some ones as well. They have

00:32:29.009 --> 00:32:33.049
some 357 Magnum PD, which uses, I think, aluminum,

00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:36.450
scanadium, whatever they call it, scandium frame.

00:32:36.650 --> 00:32:38.950
Oh, scanadium. Wait a minute. I don't remember

00:32:38.950 --> 00:32:41.390
seeing that. That's scandium, I think it is.

00:32:41.430 --> 00:32:43.009
I don't think I saw that on the periodic table.

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:47.170
Yeah, it's some alloy that Smith & Wesson has

00:32:47.170 --> 00:32:50.390
that'll handle the Magnum, 357 Magnum. I mean,

00:32:50.390 --> 00:32:53.539
which... It might be great if you're like a backpacker.

00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:57.400
You know, you might have some .357 Magnum hard

00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:00.559
cast thing because you're out there hiking the

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.460
Pacific Coast Trail or something and you're in,

00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:06.680
you know, bear country or something and maybe

00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.220
you're not going to carry something bigger than

00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:11.039
that. I mean, it is, it's a whole lot better

00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:12.900
than having nothing. No, you don't have to worry

00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:14.799
about that. We're in a liberal state. The bears

00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:17.160
got the message. They're not going to, you know,

00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:18.779
they'll come up to you with a flower or something

00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:21.640
like that. Yeah, right. Around the left coast

00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:24.279
here. Go ahead. I really think there's been too

00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:28.099
much focus on that. And in the sense that people

00:33:28.099 --> 00:33:31.779
try to go with the lightest weight gun they can

00:33:31.779 --> 00:33:35.819
possibly find to carry. And they don't shoot

00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:38.140
it well. When we get them out on the range, they

00:33:38.140 --> 00:33:42.039
don't shoot it well. And they could be carrying

00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.400
something. I mean, after all, you know, I worked

00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:50.240
all, you know, 12 hours. sometimes 12 hours and

00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.180
more a day in law enforcement, and I was carrying

00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:57.359
a 36 -ounce handgun, and I didn't have any problem

00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:02.339
at all. So I think a lot of that is your commitment,

00:34:02.500 --> 00:34:07.019
your commitment to get better and carry something

00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:11.039
you can really shoot well with. I think about

00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:15.829
Colonel Walter Walsh, who was a... FBI agent

00:34:15.829 --> 00:34:19.610
before World War II. He was a Marine Corps colonel.

00:34:19.809 --> 00:34:22.670
Gosh, he lived up until nearly 100 years old.

00:34:22.889 --> 00:34:27.550
But Walter Walsh was about, I'd say, 5 '6 or

00:34:27.550 --> 00:34:33.889
5 '7, about 140 pounds, and he carried two Smith

00:34:33.889 --> 00:34:37.210
& Wesson Model 27s, one on each hip when he was

00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:41.389
with the FBI. So there's not much excuse for

00:34:41.389 --> 00:34:45.739
the rest of us, you know. One thing I tell people,

00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.960
too, if you want to complain about how heavy

00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.760
your defense gun is, why don't you carry your

00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:56.159
wife's purse around for a day? I shouldn't laugh

00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:58.039
at that. I'd get in trouble. But you're absolutely

00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:02.099
correct. It's amazing how many rocks at least

00:35:02.099 --> 00:35:04.800
my wife will put in her purse. They're not rocks,

00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:08.179
but they're 12 pounds, you know. Because she

00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:10.139
doesn't carry, and what she does with her purse

00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:14.960
is she bludgeons people to death. Yeah, don't

00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:18.480
ever let her hit you with it. No, no. So what

00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:20.860
are some of your favorite guns, Jim, even if

00:35:20.860 --> 00:35:22.960
they're not in current production? Like, what

00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.519
have you thought were just the best things to

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:29.639
seek out? I carried the 4 -inch Model 19 Smith

00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:34.099
& Wesson when I was in uniform. When I became

00:35:34.099 --> 00:35:37.300
a detective, I carried the 2 .5 -inch Model 19.

00:35:38.219 --> 00:35:41.019
And to me, the two and a half inch Model 19,

00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.960
I call it the Cadillac of defensive revolvers.

00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:48.480
It's just a great little gun. So I love those.

00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:54.239
And the autos that I carried was either a government

00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:58.599
model Colt or a Colt Commander. And I relied

00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:02.659
on those heavily. My favorite hunting guns. are

00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:05.780
the old model Rugers, the old flat -top Rugers

00:36:05.780 --> 00:36:09.539
that they came out with back in the 50s, both

00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:13.500
in .357 and in .44 Magnum. And those are my favorite

00:36:13.500 --> 00:36:20.519
hunting handguns. So I qualify as a FUD, I guess.

00:36:22.099 --> 00:36:25.519
I think I do more and more every day, no doubt.

00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:30.239
Yeah. But another one I really have a high regard

00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:35.659
for is a... Browning Hi -Power. And I was fortunate

00:36:35.659 --> 00:36:39.699
enough to get a Hi -Power that Nighthawk Custom

00:36:39.699 --> 00:36:43.360
had worked over. And I love it. It's a great

00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:46.340
pistol too. Yeah, I actually have a Hi -Power.

00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:48.960
They are great pistols. My one is a World War

00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:55.110
II take back one. So, but yeah, very interesting.

00:36:55.809 --> 00:36:58.289
Mine does not have as probably not nearly as

00:36:58.289 --> 00:37:01.110
polished as yours. Mine was a mid -war, mid -World

00:37:01.110 --> 00:37:03.929
War II one. So it had tooling marks and other

00:37:03.929 --> 00:37:05.650
things that they were just getting them out as

00:37:05.650 --> 00:37:10.389
quick as possible. One of the guns, the new guns

00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:14.269
that I got recently is one of the new three -inch

00:37:14.269 --> 00:37:18.889
Python, Colt Pythons. And it was a stainless

00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:26.159
gun. Tyler Gunworks did an action job on it,

00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:30.940
and then I had the stainless gun bead blasted.

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:35.340
Some of these new Colt revolvers that are coming

00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:37.920
out are really nice guns, and I really like that

00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:41.699
new Python. Yeah, we saw those, and I played

00:37:41.699 --> 00:37:43.760
with them for quite a while at the SHOT Show.

00:37:44.380 --> 00:37:47.019
I'm very impressed by them, actually, what was

00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:49.280
coming from the factory. And I attribute that

00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.340
a lot to CNC, you know, computer numerical control

00:37:52.340 --> 00:37:55.659
machines. Whereas before, back in the 50s and

00:37:55.659 --> 00:37:57.719
60s and 70s, when they were making these things,

00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.079
there was a lot of hand fitting and hand, you

00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:03.300
know, it's got to be just perfect. But the great

00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:06.099
thing about computers is the repeatability. So,

00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.639
yeah, they are putting out a phenomenal new product.

00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:11.880
But they're all up above, I think, $1 ,200, $1

00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.030
,300 and up. At least in this neck of the woods

00:38:15.030 --> 00:38:18.389
they are. But, yeah, they would be kind of one

00:38:18.389 --> 00:38:21.769
on my list of things to acquire at some point

00:38:21.769 --> 00:38:24.489
in time. Yeah, well, I recommend it. I highly

00:38:24.489 --> 00:38:27.510
recommend it. I sure like it. Well, then, for

00:38:27.510 --> 00:38:30.650
both of you, I have a question which I think

00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:32.550
the listeners are going to want an answer to,

00:38:32.650 --> 00:38:35.989
too. If some of these guns are, I mean, Colt,

00:38:35.989 --> 00:38:38.969
yeah, they're expensive. Perhaps they're worth

00:38:38.969 --> 00:38:42.679
it. There's a number of other high -end revolver

00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:44.780
manufacturers out there, some of them newer than

00:38:44.780 --> 00:38:48.079
others. Where's the value proposition? Should

00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:50.320
one spend that much or is it just a matter of

00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:54.219
just personal preference? Or in lieu of spending

00:38:54.219 --> 00:38:57.920
a lot on the gun as an entry point, you know,

00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.699
Jim, what modifications would you recommend to

00:39:00.699 --> 00:39:03.280
an existing gun, you know, to make it work better

00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:06.679
and maybe do it at a lower cost than just replacing

00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.980
it? Sadly, and I'm not going to go into a lot

00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:13.280
of detail, I don't want to be too critical, but

00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.119
quality control has kind of become a problem

00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:22.940
in our industry. And on the new revolvers I've

00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:26.679
seen and fooled with, before I carried one, I

00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:29.659
think I would want to have my gunsmith go through

00:39:29.659 --> 00:39:32.900
it, maybe smooth up the action a little bit,

00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:36.179
check everything to make sure it works like it's

00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:39.699
supposed to. I get along pretty well with factory

00:39:39.699 --> 00:39:43.559
sights. I like adjustable sights, but factory

00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:46.219
sights work fine. As long as it's got a trigger

00:39:46.219 --> 00:39:51.480
job, I like a nice smooth trigger and as easy

00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:54.840
as possible. I don't want a hair trigger on a

00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:59.079
defense gun, but I want it smooth and clean breaking.

00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:02.300
And generally you have to go to a gunsmith to

00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:12.219
get that. Often, a lot of times, if a person

00:40:12.219 --> 00:40:16.579
knows a little bit about guns, you can save a

00:40:16.579 --> 00:40:19.380
lot of money at a gun show or something like

00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:24.579
that with an older Model 10 Smith & Wesson 38

00:40:24.579 --> 00:40:29.780
that maybe was a police trade -in. Those can

00:40:29.780 --> 00:40:34.420
be awfully good guns and not terribly expensive

00:40:34.420 --> 00:40:38.920
in the long run. So there are a number of ways.

00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:41.440
There again, if you don't know much about guns,

00:40:41.539 --> 00:40:44.280
you might want to have a gunsmith look at one

00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:48.260
of those. But I've seen, I saw just the other

00:40:48.260 --> 00:40:51.699
day, one of the big distributors has gotten a

00:40:51.699 --> 00:40:55.760
big load of Colton and Smith & Wesson police

00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.820
trade -in revolvers. And those things are priced

00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:02.960
pretty well and will do a good job as a personal

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.159
defense gun. I completely agree. Um, I, and this

00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.780
is frugal firearms. So, you know, one of those

00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:13.199
things that I am a big advocate of is, um, use

00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.320
secondhand, thirdhand, whatever firearms, as

00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.340
long as they're in good shape and, you know,

00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:22.909
you go into, I, I love to go to pawn shops. you

00:41:22.909 --> 00:41:25.130
know, go into pawn shops, look at things. I love

00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:28.230
to go into gun stores and yeah, I see the new

00:41:28.230 --> 00:41:30.769
rack there, but I tend to gravitate toward the,

00:41:30.769 --> 00:41:33.150
for the cabinet or the, whatever that has all

00:41:33.150 --> 00:41:36.269
of the, the, uh, the trade in stuff, you know,

00:41:36.269 --> 00:41:39.150
and, and look at that. And, um, particularly

00:41:39.150 --> 00:41:41.510
with pawn shops, what I love about pawn shops

00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:44.550
are, is they will put a price on it, which is

00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:48.590
pretty darn near what the current list price

00:41:48.590 --> 00:41:52.519
is on a brand new one. And pawn shops are, those

00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:56.300
are all suggested prices. I'm not here to tell

00:41:56.300 --> 00:41:58.579
you how to wheel and deal your way through a

00:41:58.579 --> 00:42:01.059
pawn shop. But, you know, they typically are

00:42:01.059 --> 00:42:03.179
going to be paying about 40 cents on the dollar

00:42:03.179 --> 00:42:05.980
for what they're going to actually sell it for.

00:42:06.019 --> 00:42:07.139
Because they don't know how long they've got

00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:09.099
to hold it. They may have it there for a month.

00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:11.420
They may have it there for two years. Exactly.

00:42:11.420 --> 00:42:13.719
They get to trade in at a relatively low price.

00:42:13.940 --> 00:42:16.659
There's a low investment. If you come in and,

00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:19.539
you know, I've gotten hundreds of dollars off

00:42:19.539 --> 00:42:22.780
on things which I purchased there before telling

00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:25.659
them, you know, would you take this? And they're

00:42:25.659 --> 00:42:28.420
like, no. And I go, it's cash. And then they

00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:30.820
go, oh, well, that's a different story because

00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:34.099
they need to have a certain amount of cash flowing

00:42:34.099 --> 00:42:35.760
through the system, you know, and then you fill

00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.940
out your 4473. California, you got to wait 10

00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:41.340
days, then you got to come back and pick it up,

00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.780
which is all fine. I mean, it's not really fine.

00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:45.739
It's kind of a pain in the ass, but. I can't

00:42:45.739 --> 00:42:48.539
believe you said that was fine. It's not fine.

00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.300
Let me tell you why it's not fine. Okay. My daughter

00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:57.000
lives in Northern California. Okay. And I will

00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.840
go up and visit. We'll go and visit her. It's

00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:01.969
great. Wonderful. Now, I, but I don't, I intentionally

00:43:01.969 --> 00:43:04.530
do not go to pawn shops and gun stores in Northern

00:43:04.530 --> 00:43:06.909
California. Why? Because I'm going to probably

00:43:06.909 --> 00:43:10.050
walk in there, fall in love with something, you

00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:11.469
know, it's probably something older, something

00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:13.809
used, something in good shape, something unique,

00:43:13.909 --> 00:43:15.929
something interesting I want to buy. And I'll

00:43:15.929 --> 00:43:18.010
sit there and go, it's a great deal. But then

00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:21.130
you got to factor in, okay, first off, I'm not

00:43:21.130 --> 00:43:23.190
going to be there in 10 days because 10 days

00:43:23.190 --> 00:43:24.829
I'm going to be back in Southern California.

00:43:25.389 --> 00:43:29.269
And so it's like, okay, you know, okay. And daughter

00:43:29.269 --> 00:43:30.519
came. You can't pick it up because it's federal

00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:33.079
paperwork. No, no, no. Yeah, that'd be a straw

00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:35.920
purchase, right? Exactly. So the only way to

00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:38.179
pick it up is to have it shipped to you. Okay,

00:43:38.340 --> 00:43:40.460
now you have the FFL here. You got a shipping

00:43:40.460 --> 00:43:45.039
cost. You got an FFL to receive it. And all of

00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.739
a sudden, the good deal becomes, no, it's not

00:43:48.739 --> 00:43:51.860
a good deal anymore. You know, it's just ratcheted

00:43:51.860 --> 00:43:53.460
up the price by the time I can get it back to

00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:56.219
me here in San Diego. It's just too much. I don't

00:43:56.219 --> 00:43:58.199
even bother anymore. And I think that's partly

00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.909
intentional. You know, that the government, they're

00:44:00.909 --> 00:44:03.389
trying to make it as pain in the whatever as

00:44:03.389 --> 00:44:05.849
they possibly can. I had long discussions with

00:44:05.849 --> 00:44:08.670
the FBI when I was at the SHOT Show, talking

00:44:08.670 --> 00:44:10.230
to them about the NICS, the National Instant

00:44:10.230 --> 00:44:13.670
Criminal Background Check, NICS, N -I -C -S system.

00:44:14.130 --> 00:44:16.570
And I said, you know, why can't we mandate that

00:44:16.570 --> 00:44:18.889
everybody use this? Just like you walk into a

00:44:18.889 --> 00:44:20.329
restaurant and you want to buy something, you

00:44:20.329 --> 00:44:22.769
whip out your credit card, you wand it in, it

00:44:22.769 --> 00:44:24.329
tells you right away whether you're approved

00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:27.039
or you're disapproved, you know. Why can't we

00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.699
do this? Particularly with people who are collectors,

00:44:30.820 --> 00:44:34.099
already have CCWs, already have an FFL, they

00:44:34.099 --> 00:44:36.059
already have, you know, you've been through the

00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:38.719
system a dozen times, you know, a hundred times

00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.280
maybe, I don't know. And why can't we do that?

00:44:42.380 --> 00:44:44.659
But no, they can't. So you just got to come back

00:44:44.659 --> 00:44:46.599
in 10 days like they've never seen you before.

00:44:48.590 --> 00:44:52.170
So, yeah. But that's not the case in Texas. Do

00:44:52.170 --> 00:44:55.070
you have any waiting period or three days or

00:44:55.070 --> 00:44:58.309
cash and carry? What is it like there? We don't

00:44:58.309 --> 00:45:02.050
have a waiting period. And if you have a concealed

00:45:02.050 --> 00:45:05.489
carry license, they don't even have to do a background

00:45:05.489 --> 00:45:09.190
check on you. Perfect. The thing you have to

00:45:09.190 --> 00:45:13.250
understand about all of that is bureaucracy is

00:45:13.250 --> 00:45:18.420
set up to perpetuate itself. Yeah. The idea of

00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:21.360
making something simpler just doesn't work. That's

00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:26.000
not what their mind is. I was working as the

00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:29.280
elected county sheriff when we were first trying

00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:32.900
to get concealed carry licenses in Texas. And

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:37.960
my suggestion was, you don't have to do a license

00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:43.570
for the citizen. If you stop and think about

00:45:43.570 --> 00:45:46.530
it, any time a policeman stops you, he wants

00:45:46.530 --> 00:45:49.309
to see your identification. He wants your driver's

00:45:49.309 --> 00:45:53.409
license. So I said, we simply flag the driver's

00:45:53.409 --> 00:45:57.949
licenses of convicted felons, make them a different

00:45:57.949 --> 00:46:01.269
color or have some key number. And that's all

00:46:01.269 --> 00:46:04.789
you need. That way, if the guy's got a gun, he

00:46:04.789 --> 00:46:07.210
knows he's a convicted felon. Boom, he goes to

00:46:07.210 --> 00:46:12.119
jail. If you've got a clean driver's license,

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:20.380
you're cool to go. I got nowhere with that. Our

00:46:20.380 --> 00:46:22.440
Department of Public Safety just wasn't going

00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.559
to go for that. They were already seeing where

00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:26.780
they were going to get to increase their budget

00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:30.500
and get more money from the state, more taxpayer

00:46:30.500 --> 00:46:34.539
money. So that all went down the way. But, yeah,

00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:38.610
we can make it a lot simpler. And we have a constitutional

00:46:38.610 --> 00:46:44.170
carry now in Texas, and you can carry, you can

00:46:44.170 --> 00:46:47.610
even open carry without a license at all. Okay,

00:46:47.630 --> 00:46:49.610
so let me ask you about the open carry thing

00:46:49.610 --> 00:46:53.309
then, because that's also something that, oddly

00:46:53.309 --> 00:46:55.670
enough, in California is coming up as might be

00:46:55.670 --> 00:46:59.230
able to do that. And you're former law enforcement,

00:46:59.349 --> 00:47:02.110
so this is, you have a perfect perspective because

00:47:02.110 --> 00:47:03.809
you've got both sides. You've got the civilian

00:47:03.809 --> 00:47:05.829
side and you've got the law enforcement side.

00:47:06.670 --> 00:47:12.590
Is carrying openly, in your opinion, just an

00:47:12.590 --> 00:47:16.610
attraction to having problems from people who

00:47:16.610 --> 00:47:22.190
get triggered? Or is it attracting the wrong

00:47:22.190 --> 00:47:24.849
element who might gang up on you and try to take

00:47:24.849 --> 00:47:29.150
your gun? Or do you see it as kind of a net positive?

00:47:30.469 --> 00:47:34.510
Well, I see it pretty much as a negative. Now,

00:47:34.570 --> 00:47:39.019
let me say this. I support constitutional carry.

00:47:40.019 --> 00:47:43.699
So I think you ought to be able to carry concealed

00:47:43.699 --> 00:47:50.000
or openly as you choose. Then when you come to

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.079
me for advice, my advice to you would be don't

00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:58.800
carry open in most cases. Now, I'll give you

00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:02.000
an example. We're at gun sight all day for a

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:05.019
class. We're carrying openly. So if we're going

00:48:05.019 --> 00:48:07.699
to run into town to the grocery store after class

00:48:07.699 --> 00:48:11.460
is over, I'm not going to take the gun off. I'll

00:48:11.460 --> 00:48:15.360
leave it on. If we're out handgun hunting and

00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:18.420
run in to get a bite of lunch before we go back

00:48:18.420 --> 00:48:21.260
out, I'm not going to take the gun off. But as

00:48:21.260 --> 00:48:25.239
a general rule, I recommend having it concealed.

00:48:26.059 --> 00:48:30.650
And that's the reason being is. is if the bad

00:48:30.650 --> 00:48:34.989
guys jump you, I want them to be surprised. Right,

00:48:35.050 --> 00:48:39.929
right. And if they see you've got a gun on and

00:48:39.929 --> 00:48:42.130
they decide to jump you, they're probably going

00:48:42.130 --> 00:48:44.710
to be in control before you can do anything about

00:48:44.710 --> 00:48:51.369
it. Good point, yeah. So my suggestion, I prefer

00:48:51.369 --> 00:48:56.019
concealed carry as a general rule. Okay, I'm

00:48:56.019 --> 00:48:58.159
going to stay on the topic then from your previous

00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:04.559
law enforcement experience. Did you, maybe you

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:06.119
don't have to tell me how often, but I'm assuming

00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:07.920
you're in Texas, so it's going to happen occasionally.

00:49:08.539 --> 00:49:12.019
You'd execute a stop on somebody, you know, they're

00:49:12.019 --> 00:49:15.860
armed. What was your preference in how they conducted

00:49:15.860 --> 00:49:19.260
themselves and informed you of that? And how

00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:21.320
did those encounters go? And maybe you throw

00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:24.380
me a story or two for the listener's benefit

00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:28.239
about the wrong way to do that. Here in Texas,

00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:33.699
we recommended that you simply tell the officer

00:49:33.699 --> 00:49:36.340
during a traffic stop when he walks up, just

00:49:36.340 --> 00:49:41.210
tell him. How you're going to tell him, you're

00:49:41.210 --> 00:49:43.389
going to have both hands on the top of the steering

00:49:43.389 --> 00:49:46.449
wheel where he can see both of your hands. If

00:49:46.449 --> 00:49:49.030
it's nighttime, you've reached down and turned

00:49:49.030 --> 00:49:51.969
on your interior light so he can see real well.

00:49:52.230 --> 00:49:55.010
And then when he walks up, just simply tell him

00:49:55.010 --> 00:49:59.590
that you're armed. And then do whatever he says.

00:49:59.690 --> 00:50:03.800
Most of them now, if it's concealed or... If

00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.400
it's in the console of your vehicle, most of

00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:08.380
the officers now will just tell you, let's just

00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:11.179
leave it there and we'll take care of our business.

00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:15.539
He has a right to take it from you and hold it

00:50:15.539 --> 00:50:19.199
while he does. And I just do whatever he wants

00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:24.059
to do. That's not the place to argue and get

00:50:24.059 --> 00:50:29.119
by the easiest way you can. Growing up in Texas,

00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:33.360
especially rural Texas, We had kind of a different

00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:38.519
perspective about firearms. Many, many times

00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:41.119
I'd pull up, you know, we get a burglary call

00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:46.179
or a citizen needing help, got a prowler or something,

00:50:46.300 --> 00:50:48.659
you pull up there and the citizen's out there

00:50:48.659 --> 00:50:53.099
in the yard with his shotgun. So to me, I never

00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:57.079
found that a time to go ballistic, you know.

00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:01.139
I might get out and I'd... I'm looking at him.

00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:03.519
I'm making judgments about what he looks like.

00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:07.099
I'm thinking, that's the citizen. And the gun's

00:51:07.099 --> 00:51:10.679
not pointed at me. Most of the time, I would

00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:12.820
just say, sir, why don't you lay that on the

00:51:12.820 --> 00:51:15.199
ground and then come over here and talk to me?

00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:21.179
And I didn't see those as an opportunity or a

00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:25.639
need to draw my gun and go Wyatt Earp on him.

00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:29.840
If I had shot every person that I had a legal

00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:33.719
right to shoot, I'd be way ahead of Hickok's

00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:38.079
record or John Wesley Harden's record. And most

00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:40.940
law enforcement officers are like that. Where

00:51:40.940 --> 00:51:43.500
it becomes a problem is when you have a police

00:51:43.500 --> 00:51:47.260
officer that is not very well skilled with his

00:51:47.260 --> 00:51:50.280
firearm. So when he gets in a deal where there

00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:54.769
may be firearms, he's nervous. And that's where

00:51:54.769 --> 00:51:58.070
somebody may get hurt. Growing up around guns,

00:51:58.210 --> 00:52:03.690
I got my first gun when I was 11. I never was

00:52:03.690 --> 00:52:07.469
really interested in outdoor, in regular organized

00:52:07.469 --> 00:52:11.409
sports. I liked the outdoors and messing with

00:52:11.409 --> 00:52:15.710
guns and roaming the creeks. And so guns just

00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:22.960
never scared me. But I think after a while, you're

00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:28.659
able to read people. If you're successful in

00:52:28.659 --> 00:52:31.480
that work, you're able to read people. Again,

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:35.719
I would often just say, sir, why don't you put

00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:37.679
that gun on the porch and come over here and

00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:41.659
talk to me? And that's all we did. He's on his

00:52:41.659 --> 00:52:44.280
own property with his shotgun. He's not breaking

00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:48.789
the law. There's no point in making a federal

00:52:48.789 --> 00:52:52.949
case out of it, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's

00:52:52.949 --> 00:52:55.550
a very important lesson for people. You said

00:52:55.550 --> 00:52:58.610
a couple things. You didn't say it, but you implied

00:52:58.610 --> 00:53:01.469
don't use the word gun because that is a quote

00:53:01.469 --> 00:53:04.849
-unquote triggering term for some police, as

00:53:04.849 --> 00:53:10.289
we've seen recently, actually. made the point

00:53:10.289 --> 00:53:12.610
that you're just trying to be reasonable, make

00:53:12.610 --> 00:53:15.369
the officer feel safe, don't make him feel like

00:53:15.369 --> 00:53:18.269
you're a threat at any point in the conversation.

00:53:18.670 --> 00:53:22.489
And if an argument does ensue, that's not the

00:53:22.489 --> 00:53:24.369
time or the place for it. That's adjudicated

00:53:24.369 --> 00:53:28.510
in court. Yeah, you're exactly right. Who can

00:53:28.510 --> 00:53:32.550
tell us that they've ever seen a policeman, when

00:53:32.550 --> 00:53:35.309
the driver got mad, the policeman said, oh, listen,

00:53:35.409 --> 00:53:37.489
I'm sorry, I'll tear up the ticket. I didn't

00:53:37.489 --> 00:53:41.320
mean to make you mad. You know, it's one of the

00:53:41.320 --> 00:53:43.880
stupidest things people do is sit out there on

00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.900
the side of the road and argue with that police

00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:50.920
officer. It's just, it's a waste of time. It's

00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:54.320
silly. So I wanted to ask you a question about

00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:59.800
your training and not formal training, just the

00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:03.559
way you, I guess, brought yourself up. Are you

00:54:03.559 --> 00:54:06.210
a... And I'm thinking revolvers here. I'm kind

00:54:06.210 --> 00:54:08.550
of focusing on revolvers. Okay. A lot of them

00:54:08.550 --> 00:54:10.750
vary. You said you like adjustable sights. And

00:54:10.750 --> 00:54:12.769
a lot of them don't have adjustable sights. So

00:54:12.769 --> 00:54:15.230
they just have a blade front and a notch rear

00:54:15.230 --> 00:54:18.389
or something like that. Are you a front -focused,

00:54:18.670 --> 00:54:22.349
a front -sight -focused guy or a target -focused

00:54:22.349 --> 00:54:26.110
guy? In personal defense, I'm a front -sight

00:54:26.110 --> 00:54:31.510
-focused. In handgun hunting, I'm a target -sight

00:54:31.510 --> 00:54:35.289
-focused. So distinguishing between those two

00:54:35.289 --> 00:54:39.429
things, what do you think about, you know, now

00:54:39.429 --> 00:54:42.650
you can get mounts for red dots for revolvers?

00:54:42.710 --> 00:54:45.869
Do you think that either because of astigmatism

00:54:45.869 --> 00:54:51.150
or your close ability to focus is, you know,

00:54:51.150 --> 00:54:54.289
your near focus abilities are starting to go

00:54:54.289 --> 00:54:57.849
off? Do you like red dots or would you just say,

00:54:57.929 --> 00:55:00.190
well, at any practical distance, it doesn't matter

00:55:00.190 --> 00:55:05.329
anyway? I'm not a big red dot fan. Now, I think

00:55:05.329 --> 00:55:09.610
if you have some sort of a physical situation

00:55:09.610 --> 00:55:13.110
where you have trouble seeing the iron sights,

00:55:13.449 --> 00:55:18.090
by all means, try the red dots. But I'm suspicious.

00:55:18.309 --> 00:55:21.070
I'm not sure I want anything on a defense gun

00:55:21.070 --> 00:55:26.829
that takes batteries. I agree. And I get along

00:55:26.829 --> 00:55:32.150
fine with the iron sights. I do like, particularly

00:55:32.150 --> 00:55:34.750
on a defense gun, I want something on the front

00:55:34.750 --> 00:55:38.630
sight that says, look at me. Now, I happen to

00:55:38.630 --> 00:55:43.070
like the gold dots on the front sight. I don't

00:55:43.070 --> 00:55:45.690
have a problem with white dots or whatever, but

00:55:45.690 --> 00:55:48.230
something on the front sight that says, hey,

00:55:48.250 --> 00:55:53.969
look at me. And that helps me true up that sight

00:55:53.969 --> 00:55:57.230
picture just before I break the shot. It's going

00:55:57.230 --> 00:55:59.550
back to what we were saying earlier about marketing.

00:55:59.900 --> 00:56:01.800
Like, oh, this is the new shiny thing I can put

00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:04.820
on my gun to compensate for my lack of training.

00:56:05.179 --> 00:56:08.519
So I'll put a red dot on it, and now I'm Wyatt

00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:12.239
Earp again, where before I wasn't. Is that where

00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.460
that is, or is there a legitimate need for, I

00:56:15.460 --> 00:56:18.219
guess, you know, maybe broadly speaking, since

00:56:18.219 --> 00:56:21.019
the revolver has been largely the same for so

00:56:21.019 --> 00:56:23.920
long, and now we have... They're not hammerless,

00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:26.260
they're shrouded hammers, but kind of the same

00:56:26.260 --> 00:56:28.820
point. You now have hammers that are concealed.

00:56:28.940 --> 00:56:32.219
Do you like the double action only as a development

00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:34.739
so that you don't get into a situation in court

00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:38.079
where you had a quote -unquote hair trigger on

00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:40.260
your single action and you didn't really need

00:56:40.260 --> 00:56:42.099
to shoot the guy, but you did anyway because

00:56:42.099 --> 00:56:44.179
you were nervous and your finger flinched? Or

00:56:44.179 --> 00:56:46.360
are there other developments and revolvers that

00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:48.599
you think either are there that people need to

00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:53.300
pay attention to or could be there? I've carried

00:56:53.300 --> 00:56:55.960
double -action revolvers both ways. When I worked

00:56:55.960 --> 00:56:59.039
as a detective and investigator, we had to wear

00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:04.219
a suit coat. And so I used a bob hammer on my

00:57:04.219 --> 00:57:08.199
2 1⁄2 -inch 19 just to keep from tearing up the

00:57:08.199 --> 00:57:13.599
lining on my suit coat and practiced and trained

00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:17.820
for double action. So I don't have a problem

00:57:17.820 --> 00:57:21.489
with that if there's a need. if you identify

00:57:21.489 --> 00:57:25.849
a real need. But you have to have some training

00:57:25.849 --> 00:57:28.869
before you actually know what the needs are.

00:57:29.969 --> 00:57:33.150
And, you know, a lot of people, they'll run out

00:57:33.150 --> 00:57:36.070
and get a, let's say, a red dot sight on their

00:57:36.070 --> 00:57:40.369
gun just because they read somewhere that that's

00:57:40.369 --> 00:57:42.949
cool or they think it's cool. That's probably,

00:57:43.050 --> 00:57:46.369
that could be a mistake. I'm not really against

00:57:46.369 --> 00:57:50.820
red dots because that's sort of, That sort of

00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:54.340
development, we don't know what improvements

00:57:54.340 --> 00:57:57.199
that will lead to down the road. So I think there

00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:03.099
always needs to be some experimentation in terms

00:58:03.099 --> 00:58:05.900
of sights or whatever else, ammunition, whatever.

00:58:07.659 --> 00:58:10.340
But in terms of defense guns, I don't want to

00:58:10.340 --> 00:58:15.579
get caught in a gunfight with some kind of experimental

00:58:15.579 --> 00:58:18.880
equipment. That just doesn't appeal to me at

00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:22.989
all. Does that mean that people, you said experimental,

00:58:23.010 --> 00:58:24.989
do you think that that means that people simply

00:58:24.989 --> 00:58:27.170
aren't pressure testing themselves enough in

00:58:27.170 --> 00:58:29.710
training to know what is going to be reliable

00:58:29.710 --> 00:58:32.289
and what isn't? In other words, is that the user's

00:58:32.289 --> 00:58:37.429
fault? I think that's true. I think a lot of

00:58:37.429 --> 00:58:40.070
people, and again, let's stay with personal defense,

00:58:40.309 --> 00:58:44.440
but a lot of people, they have the... It's sort

00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:46.900
of the John Wayne syndrome. All I need to do

00:58:46.900 --> 00:58:49.559
is buy a gun, put bullets in it, and I'm a bad

00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:54.619
guy. And that's probably the least consideration,

00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:57.880
least important consideration of the whole thing.

00:58:59.019 --> 00:59:04.500
Too few people take advantage of the good defensive

00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:09.739
training that's available in this country. Yeah,

00:59:09.860 --> 00:59:12.079
you may figure a lot of that stuff out on your

00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:15.599
own, but let me tell you something. On -the -job

00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:18.940
training in gunfights is not a good idea. Yeah,

00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:22.760
completely agree, yeah. We've talked about training

00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:25.360
many, many times on this show, and that's something

00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:28.860
that we really want to hammer home. We encourage

00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:34.679
people to get the frugal firearms aspect of it

00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:36.739
where you can get into the shooting sports and

00:59:36.739 --> 00:59:39.119
enjoy them for very little. But one of the things

00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:42.079
you shouldn't skimp on is some very quality training.

00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.500
And quality training is available most everywhere,

00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:48.760
particularly in any pretty much urban area. I

00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:51.099
think across the country you can find somebody

00:59:51.099 --> 00:59:55.639
or some group that will offer it. And if not,

00:59:55.659 --> 00:59:57.119
then you can do something like Craig is doing

00:59:57.119 --> 00:59:59.500
and heading off to TACCON, which is phenomenal

00:59:59.500 --> 01:00:02.739
training. Craig, you want to talk about that

01:00:02.739 --> 01:00:07.469
a little bit? Well, I do. TACCON is not a resource

01:00:07.469 --> 01:00:10.070
that's available to everybody. And by that, I

01:00:10.070 --> 01:00:13.420
don't mean that's not an elitist statement. The

01:00:13.420 --> 01:00:16.340
reason is that they only have 400 spots and it

01:00:16.340 --> 01:00:18.320
sells out the first day that they announce it

01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:20.280
and they announce it like 10 months before it

01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:23.360
happens. So it's like basically if you're not

01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:25.820
pulling the trigger. Oh, hey, that was OK. I

01:00:25.820 --> 01:00:27.519
didn't really need to use that. You're not clicking

01:00:27.519 --> 01:00:29.940
the mouse. I didn't. Yeah. If you're not clicking

01:00:29.940 --> 01:00:31.559
the pulling the trigger. God dang it. Why did

01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:34.579
I do that? OK, if you're not ready for it on

01:00:34.579 --> 01:00:37.039
the day it announces, you're not going. And and

01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:39.800
so it's a little bit of an aberration because

01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:42.710
of the way they run it. However, it is run. by

01:00:42.710 --> 01:00:45.989
Mr. Tom Givens, who is also a very well -known

01:00:45.989 --> 01:00:48.929
gun trainer. Yes. And it sounds like you maybe

01:00:48.929 --> 01:00:51.849
know of him or maybe directly know him, Jim.

01:00:52.949 --> 01:00:55.849
I think I've met Tom. I do not know him well,

01:00:55.969 --> 01:00:58.369
but I think I've met Tom at SHOT Show and stuff.

01:00:58.710 --> 01:01:00.650
You know, he had something interesting at the

01:01:00.650 --> 01:01:02.769
end. I don't think I've passed this story on

01:01:02.769 --> 01:01:05.889
before, but at the end of one of his classes,

01:01:06.170 --> 01:01:09.949
usually an instructor will say, okay, guys, go

01:01:09.949 --> 01:01:13.039
unload and show clear. Cool. Okay. I'm just used

01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:15.780
to that. In his class, he goes, go grab a full

01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:17.539
magazine, put it in the gun, rack it and put

01:01:17.539 --> 01:01:19.260
it in your holster and come back. And that's

01:01:19.260 --> 01:01:22.960
at the end of class. And exactly like, I wonder

01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:25.840
why he does that. And I believe the number he

01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:27.760
said was, he goes, let me tell you guys a story.

01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:32.199
He goes, I am referring to his trainees and the

01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:35.380
people he's trained. I think he said he was 81,

01:01:35.659 --> 01:01:38.860
zero and one. What does that mean? Well, the

01:01:38.860 --> 01:01:41.360
81 is the number of people he's trained who have

01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:44.500
actually had firearms -based encounters where

01:01:44.500 --> 01:01:47.000
they won or they prevailed. It doesn't mean they

01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:48.480
killed somebody. It just means they prevailed.

01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:52.340
Zero is the number of times that his students

01:01:52.340 --> 01:01:55.320
have been armed and have not prevailed. But what

01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:58.900
was the one? The one was the guy who lost by

01:01:58.900 --> 01:02:03.320
default. And the thing he reinforces is that

01:02:03.320 --> 01:02:06.099
that guy was trained by him, didn't have a gun

01:02:06.099 --> 01:02:10.289
on him. at the time of need and lost the encounter.

01:02:10.730 --> 01:02:14.150
So he reminds you, carry your effing gun, although

01:02:14.150 --> 01:02:17.230
he spells that word out completely. And he emphasizes,

01:02:17.570 --> 01:02:21.210
carry your effing gun, because it won't do you

01:02:21.210 --> 01:02:23.590
any good if it's in the trunk or at home or the

01:02:23.590 --> 01:02:28.789
glove box or whatever. So stemming off what you

01:02:28.789 --> 01:02:31.510
were saying, Ken, there are lots of guys out

01:02:31.510 --> 01:02:34.730
there who hang a shingle out and say, I'm a trainer.

01:02:35.940 --> 01:02:38.440
Maybe, Jim, you could comment on how do we know

01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:40.619
who the good from the not so good are? Because

01:02:40.619 --> 01:02:42.480
they're all over the country, and we've talked

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:45.900
to some very good ones. But, you know, the novice

01:02:45.900 --> 01:02:49.659
coming in, that person doesn't know good from

01:02:49.659 --> 01:02:55.420
bad. Well, that's true. And I think one of the

01:02:55.420 --> 01:02:59.139
ways to counter that is to go with a well -known

01:02:59.139 --> 01:03:05.150
training facility. You do your homework, ask

01:03:05.150 --> 01:03:08.090
questions around locally at your gun shop with

01:03:08.090 --> 01:03:13.769
other shooters and so forth. Actually, tune in

01:03:13.769 --> 01:03:19.110
regularly to Frugal Firearms podcast, and you'll

01:03:19.110 --> 01:03:21.730
begin to get some ideas. You hear names, you

01:03:21.730 --> 01:03:26.309
know, and so that gives you an idea. But to your

01:03:26.309 --> 01:03:29.610
point, gun sight does the same thing. Gun sight

01:03:29.610 --> 01:03:35.099
is a completely... live ammo school from the

01:03:35.099 --> 01:03:38.900
from day one they the first day though they tell

01:03:38.900 --> 01:03:41.480
you that please leave your gun in the holster

01:03:41.480 --> 01:03:45.320
until we tell you to take it out but at noontime

01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:50.179
they uh put everybody on the line and their instructions

01:03:50.179 --> 01:03:53.699
are draw your gun and put it in the condition

01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:58.559
you want it to be in during the lunch break same

01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:02.579
thing at the end of the day for whatever reason,

01:04:02.659 --> 01:04:05.800
you may feel the need to unload it. They don't

01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:08.300
expect you to unload it. They expect you to be

01:04:08.300 --> 01:04:11.840
safe with it and follow the safety rules and

01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:17.820
leave it holstered when not appropriate. So to

01:04:17.820 --> 01:04:20.800
Tom Givens, I think Tom Givens is exactly right

01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:26.179
with that approach. And people need to get used

01:04:26.179 --> 01:04:30.000
to that. You know, we went through this for a

01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:33.000
while with this business of let's don't have

01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:34.900
a round at the chamber. You know, there were

01:04:34.900 --> 01:04:38.119
those advocates that, oh, you'll have plenty

01:04:38.119 --> 01:04:42.719
of time to chamber a round. Yeah, right. Yeah,

01:04:42.820 --> 01:04:45.739
Israeli Defense Forces train that way. They carry

01:04:45.739 --> 01:04:48.599
without a round in the chamber. And they're good

01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:50.360
about putting a round in the chamber pretty quickly.

01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:54.050
I know. It's not as quick as if you didn't, and

01:04:54.050 --> 01:04:56.329
you require two hands to do that. It's not as

01:04:56.329 --> 01:04:58.869
quick as already having it in the chamber. Is

01:04:58.869 --> 01:05:01.190
this the seatbelt analogy thing where, you know,

01:05:01.190 --> 01:05:03.090
don't put the seatbelt on after the accident?

01:05:03.449 --> 01:05:06.170
I don't know. I don't actually know why they

01:05:06.170 --> 01:05:08.750
do that. But I should ask one of my friends who

01:05:08.750 --> 01:05:12.429
was an Israeli police officer, and he trained

01:05:12.429 --> 01:05:15.949
that way. But I have one other question. You

01:05:15.949 --> 01:05:19.949
mentioned that you went from revolvers to 1911s.

01:05:21.789 --> 01:05:26.610
45 1911s as your carry. Were you running that

01:05:26.610 --> 01:05:31.170
cocked and locked, or did you cock it on draw?

01:05:31.369 --> 01:05:35.030
How did you carry your 1911? Oh, I always carried

01:05:35.030 --> 01:05:37.130
cocked and locked, same with the high power.

01:05:37.570 --> 01:05:42.289
Okay. That's from the get -go. We're influenced,

01:05:42.630 --> 01:05:44.809
particularly as a young officer here in Texas,

01:05:44.889 --> 01:05:47.369
we're influenced a lot by the old -time Texas

01:05:47.369 --> 01:05:50.440
Rangers. And, uh, that's the way they always

01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:53.840
carried was cocked and locked. And, uh, uh, so,

01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:57.739
uh, you know, and then by that also at that time,

01:05:57.780 --> 01:06:01.900
I discovered, uh, Jeff Cooper and reading his

01:06:01.900 --> 01:06:03.980
work. And he's certainly here. He was saying

01:06:03.980 --> 01:06:07.880
the same thing. Yeah. I love Jeff Cooper, man.

01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:10.099
That was, boy, you talk about a storyteller.

01:06:10.119 --> 01:06:13.960
Damn. Oh my God. That's good. Jeff, Jeff Cooper

01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:18.699
was the most, uh, He was just a wonderful gift

01:06:18.699 --> 01:06:22.619
to all of us because he could take the material

01:06:22.619 --> 01:06:25.500
that needed to be taught, he could put it together

01:06:25.500 --> 01:06:28.539
in an understandable way, and he came up with

01:06:28.539 --> 01:06:32.980
a really good way to teach it to us. I tell people,

01:06:33.219 --> 01:06:36.639
if you go take a week -long 250 class at gun

01:06:36.639 --> 01:06:39.519
sight, you're better trained than most police

01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:44.559
officers. That was important, what you just said.

01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:47.579
Better trained than most police officers. And

01:06:47.579 --> 01:06:51.300
I add also to Thunder Ranch to that because Clint

01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:56.320
Smith, he started under Cooper. Right, right.

01:06:56.420 --> 01:07:01.099
And he's a gruff, tough individual, but this

01:07:01.099 --> 01:07:03.800
is a serious business that we're talking about

01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:07.260
here too. But Clint ought to be a stand -up comedian

01:07:07.260 --> 01:07:11.940
is what he ought to be. He can come up with some

01:07:11.940 --> 01:07:14.829
of the most wonderful one -liners. That I've

01:07:14.829 --> 01:07:17.750
ever heard. I've never met him in person, but

01:07:17.750 --> 01:07:19.809
everything I've seen from him makes me think

01:07:19.809 --> 01:07:24.670
that I would be fearful of laughing for the idea

01:07:24.670 --> 01:07:27.110
that I'm now going to get burned to the ground

01:07:27.110 --> 01:07:29.750
because, you know, what he said wasn't a joke.

01:07:30.590 --> 01:07:34.769
Yeah. Here's what happens with Clint. Clint will

01:07:34.769 --> 01:07:36.969
come up with one of those one -liners that crack

01:07:36.969 --> 01:07:42.469
you up, but you remember it. You don't forget

01:07:42.469 --> 01:07:45.210
it. Yeah. See, that's the essence of education

01:07:45.210 --> 01:07:47.869
is remembering. If you don't remember it, it

01:07:47.869 --> 01:07:49.989
doesn't matter how much you're exposed to if

01:07:49.989 --> 01:07:52.590
you can't recall it. That's right. And you can't

01:07:52.590 --> 01:07:57.670
use it. That's right. Right. Clint is a very

01:07:57.670 --> 01:08:03.929
good instructor. I find him more personable than

01:08:03.929 --> 01:08:10.630
I did Colonel Cooper. By just a little bit. Clint's

01:08:10.630 --> 01:08:12.809
just a little more approachable than Colonel

01:08:12.809 --> 01:08:15.750
Cooper was. And a lot of that may have been just

01:08:15.750 --> 01:08:20.310
the difference in our age. But Colonel Cooper

01:08:20.310 --> 01:08:23.109
was always very nice to me, and I respected him

01:08:23.109 --> 01:08:26.369
very much. But Clint's the kind of guy I wouldn't

01:08:26.369 --> 01:08:28.909
have any trouble, you know, getting together

01:08:28.909 --> 01:08:31.829
after class and asking him a few questions or

01:08:31.829 --> 01:08:34.850
whatever, you know. I always, the few times he'd

01:08:34.850 --> 01:08:36.789
come to SHOT Show, I always loved getting to

01:08:36.789 --> 01:08:39.789
see him and his wife. And I have a good visit,

01:08:39.869 --> 01:08:46.010
but either way, but Cooper gave us a wonderful

01:08:46.010 --> 01:08:49.409
gift with the modern technique of the pistol.

01:08:50.609 --> 01:08:52.750
So do you have any, well, do you still get to

01:08:52.750 --> 01:08:56.390
SHOT Show at all? Pardon me? Do you still go

01:08:56.390 --> 01:08:58.810
to SHOT Show at all? I haven't in the last couple

01:08:58.810 --> 01:09:03.819
of years. I don't have to. That crowd drives

01:09:03.819 --> 01:09:06.840
me nuts, so I just stay home. It's a big damn

01:09:06.840 --> 01:09:09.159
crowd. And you know what? I wanted to point something

01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:11.319
out. I just realized I made a mistake, and I'm

01:09:11.319 --> 01:09:14.460
going to put this in the show notes. I said guntales

01:09:14.460 --> 01:09:17.520
.com. It is not guntales .com. It's guntales

01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:20.899
.net. Very important, folks, that if you want

01:09:20.899 --> 01:09:23.600
to find his site, because guntales .com, turns

01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:27.869
out it goes nowhere. So GunTales .net. So along

01:09:27.869 --> 01:09:30.090
those lines, you know, as we kind of finish out

01:09:30.090 --> 01:09:32.430
here, Jim, you got a favorite story you want

01:09:32.430 --> 01:09:34.949
to share with our listeners or any little closing

01:09:34.949 --> 01:09:37.689
remarks or anything like that? We were talking

01:09:37.689 --> 01:09:42.390
about revolvers a while back and about the different

01:09:42.390 --> 01:09:46.569
power levels in revolvers. I carried a Model

01:09:46.569 --> 01:09:51.350
19 in police work, but we had to carry plus P38s

01:09:51.350 --> 01:09:55.079
that the department issued. And I was a young

01:09:55.079 --> 01:09:56.859
Turk. I thought we ought to be able to carry

01:09:56.859 --> 01:10:01.779
magnums. The chief and I did not agree. But I

01:10:01.779 --> 01:10:04.619
got hold of one of Skeeter Skelton's articles,

01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:10.119
and I found where he would load 38 special cases

01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:15.319
with enough 2400 to drive the bullet about 1200

01:10:15.319 --> 01:10:19.180
feet per second. So I sat down and cobbled me

01:10:19.180 --> 01:10:22.340
up some of those 38, those hot, hot 38 special

01:10:22.340 --> 01:10:27.140
loads. I was real proud. I'd tricked the chief

01:10:27.140 --> 01:10:31.859
completely. So I got out on a mad dog call one

01:10:31.859 --> 01:10:35.880
night and had to shoot it. I called my sergeant

01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:39.159
to give him a shots fired notice. Turned out

01:10:39.159 --> 01:10:43.979
the chief was out, so he came by. And I was the

01:10:43.979 --> 01:10:46.260
hero of the neighborhood. This was really a bad

01:10:46.260 --> 01:10:49.100
dog, and people were all glad that I killed it.

01:10:49.180 --> 01:10:52.770
So everything was cool. Just before we left,

01:10:52.829 --> 01:10:54.850
the chief called me over and he said, son, come

01:10:54.850 --> 01:10:57.729
here a minute. He turned this big dog over and

01:10:57.729 --> 01:11:00.710
he said, look what your 38 special did to that

01:11:00.710 --> 01:11:03.409
dog. He said, I don't want to hear any more about

01:11:03.409 --> 01:11:09.090
Magnum Ammo. I had absolutely outsmarted myself.

01:11:11.229 --> 01:11:14.090
Well, that's why he's chief and you weren't.

01:11:14.090 --> 01:11:18.070
And it's sir, yes, sir. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

01:11:18.070 --> 01:11:21.329
All right. Thank you, Jim, for your time. This

01:11:21.329 --> 01:11:24.310
has been great. I'd love to, at some point down

01:11:24.310 --> 01:11:26.689
the road, wouldn't mind doing this again because

01:11:26.689 --> 01:11:29.210
this has been, I think, for me, one of the most

01:11:29.210 --> 01:11:32.210
fun shows that I think we've done. I've really

01:11:32.210 --> 01:11:35.729
enjoyed this a lot. Well, thank you so much.

01:11:35.810 --> 01:11:39.909
I have too, but you and Ken both, and you've

01:11:39.909 --> 01:11:42.489
got our contact information, so holler at me

01:11:42.489 --> 01:11:44.689
and we'll visit again. I've certainly enjoyed

01:11:44.689 --> 01:11:47.979
it. Once I figured out all this technology stuff,

01:11:48.060 --> 01:11:50.560
we'll just leave the settings just the way they

01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:55.460
are. And this next time you'll know what they

01:11:55.460 --> 01:11:58.479
are. So, uh, so thanks again, Jim. Appreciate

01:11:58.479 --> 01:12:01.329
it. Thank you very much. Well, we've had a wonderful

01:12:01.329 --> 01:12:03.710
opportunity to talk with Jim down in Texas today,

01:12:03.789 --> 01:12:07.430
and he has a wealth of experience, and we got

01:12:07.430 --> 01:12:09.930
to reminisce about some stories as well as how

01:12:09.930 --> 01:12:12.750
important revolvers are, and oftentimes it's

01:12:12.750 --> 01:12:14.850
my particular favorite for first -time shooters

01:12:14.850 --> 01:12:17.449
that they purchase a revolver first. I mean,

01:12:17.470 --> 01:12:19.789
I think that the idea that a revolver is a good

01:12:19.789 --> 01:12:23.029
first gun is absolutely... Oh, God, I'm going

01:12:23.029 --> 01:12:25.890
to make another... I almost said on target, and

01:12:25.890 --> 01:12:30.020
I don't want to use all these silly gun... It

01:12:30.020 --> 01:12:33.359
is the right decision. I agree with that. Now,

01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:37.500
I am more of a semi -auto guy, and that's not

01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:39.800
to be argumentative with any of Jim's content.

01:12:40.140 --> 01:12:43.619
It's just that is the way that my gun experience

01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:46.640
has evolved. But probably as a more frequent

01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:48.859
user, maybe I'm in a better position to be able

01:12:48.859 --> 01:12:51.699
to do that. But I'm certainly not going to say

01:12:51.699 --> 01:12:55.119
that revolvers don't have a valid and continuing

01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:59.170
valid use in the space. They absolutely do. And

01:12:59.170 --> 01:13:02.550
you know what? If time comes that I have to use

01:13:02.550 --> 01:13:05.010
a semi -auto in self -defense and it doesn't

01:13:05.010 --> 01:13:08.270
work, with what remaining time I have left, I'm

01:13:08.270 --> 01:13:10.550
going to reflect on this episode. Okay, folks,

01:13:10.649 --> 01:13:12.710
thanks again for joining us. This has been an

01:13:12.710 --> 01:13:15.649
outstanding show. Do not forget that we need

01:13:15.649 --> 01:13:19.350
you to like, subscribe, pass the word on, because

01:13:19.350 --> 01:13:21.909
that's how we grow the show. And if you didn't

01:13:21.909 --> 01:13:24.890
hear it in the front end, you will know that...

01:13:25.119 --> 01:13:28.460
They reached out to us. So this was because of

01:13:28.460 --> 01:13:30.939
the success that the audience is creating for

01:13:30.939 --> 01:13:34.680
us by getting better guests, because they were

01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:36.640
the ones that came to us and said that they wanted

01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:39.880
to be hosted on the show. To me, that just says

01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:43.220
success. And it's not just our success for Ken

01:13:43.220 --> 01:13:45.260
and I, it's success for you guys as the audience,

01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:47.479
because you're getting good content by helping

01:13:47.479 --> 01:13:50.710
us get good content. I think that's about it

01:13:50.710 --> 01:13:52.670
for tonight. Not sure what the next show is going

01:13:52.670 --> 01:13:54.609
to be, Ken. We've got a few different companies

01:13:54.609 --> 01:13:57.789
all kind of queuing up. I mentioned that there

01:13:57.789 --> 01:13:59.949
were some samples that were being sent to us

01:13:59.949 --> 01:14:02.510
of things that we already have in hand and things

01:14:02.510 --> 01:14:05.090
that we haven't tested yet. Ken, when are we

01:14:05.090 --> 01:14:06.609
going to get to the range and try this stuff

01:14:06.609 --> 01:14:09.560
out? Oh, we've got to do that. I think so. I

01:14:09.560 --> 01:14:12.800
think so. But up until that time, look forward

01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:16.220
to hearing from you guys at frugalfirearmspodcast

01:14:16.220 --> 01:14:20.359
at gmail .com, which is also linked on the homepage

01:14:20.359 --> 01:14:24.439
of frugalfirearmspodcast .com. So I think that's

01:14:24.439 --> 01:14:26.819
about it for tonight. Good night, folks. Good

01:14:26.819 --> 01:14:46.899
night, folks. I tell you what, let me get our

01:14:46.899 --> 01:14:49.319
technical guy on the phone here real quick, and

01:14:49.319 --> 01:14:51.460
we'll figure out what to do here. Because Jim

01:14:51.460 --> 01:14:54.399
and I are not technical. I think they already

01:14:54.399 --> 01:14:58.239
figured that out. I was guessing that, gentlemen,

01:14:58.420 --> 01:15:00.020
but I wasn't going to. This is a miracle we even

01:15:00.020 --> 01:15:02.399
got this far. I wasn't going to say anything,

01:15:02.579 --> 01:15:06.039
so yeah, okay. What you're up against is two

01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:07.260
old retired cops.