If I had shot every person that I had a legal
right to shoot, I'd be way ahead of Hickok's
record or John Wesley Harden's record. And most
law enforcement officers are like that. Welcome
to episode 28 of the Frugal Firearms podcast,
the podcast that is designed from the ground
up to help you get the most for your shooting
dollar. And along the lines of that, you know,
information is a great thing to have. And sometimes
it's really good to go back to an old timer who,
you know, understands the history of why we're
in this and what we get out of it and can tell
those interesting, entertaining, but valuable
stories. that really provide the culture that
we all live in. So I'm Craig. I'm your host.
Ken is my co -host. Good afternoon, Ken. How
are you? Doing well. I'm doing very well. I'm
glad we're going to have a great show here today.
Appreciate everyone who's tuning in to listen.
So off we go. Exactly. And today we have Sheriff
Jim is joining us. He is primarily responsible
for a site called Gun Tales, and it has some...
amazing reading on it. And it's for people who
are more cerebral and actually want to not spend
three seconds learning something on TikTok and
then move, you know, swipe to the next thing.
But people who really want to understand gun
culture, Sheriff Jim here is absolutely a wonderful
resource. I'm so thankful that he reached out
to us to get on the show. So Jim, welcome to
the show. Tell us who you are, what you're about,
how you got there. Well, thank you, Craig. It's
good to be with you guys today. My background
is in law enforcement. I spent about 30 years
as a Texas peace officer. The last eight years
was as the elected sheriff of a county down on
the Rio Grande. And about 1990, I guess, I started
writing for the gun magazines. And after I retired,
well, that's kind of become my second job is
writing for gun magazines. And Gun Tales was
kind of a... a spinoff from that. So that's kind
of where I'm at. I've been with the Peterson's
publications, Guns and Ammo, Handguns, Shooting
Times, the NRA magazines. So quite a few of the
magazines and stuff in our industry. How many
articles do you think you've written over your
career, sir? I mean, I know that it's got to
be numerous. Well, I... Typical cop, I was looking
for a moonlighting job. And so I thought, well,
I can write magazine articles maybe while I'm
at home with my radio nearby in case I get called
out. And actually, I wrote two articles. And
just sent them in on the blind to Jan Librell,
who was the editor of Peterson's Handguns. And
believe it or not, Jan bought both of the articles.
And so that kind of got me started. As to how
many I've written, I have no idea. When you start
out, you know, as you know, you're just kind
of... pitch the articles to whichever magazine
you think will buy them. And eventually editors
get to know you and they'll start calling you
and suggest articles. So that was kind of the
process that I went through. So I did mention
up front, your last name is Wilson. So it really
is probably Sheriff Jim Wilson. And you do have
a YouTube channel. And I did find a lot of the
videos, even though they're not new, but they're
kind of timeless, you know, very short, very
to the point. But on your Gun Tales site, you
have a little moniker there, a little symbol.
And that symbol contains a revolver. Correct.
So I understand. on good authority, that you
are a revolver -focused person. And I thought,
you know, and I know my co -host Ken is very
revolver -focused too. So I'm going to let you
guys banter back and forth a little bit on the
whole topic of revolvers and maybe how they fit
in the space and the modern usage, because I
think some people are going to look at it and
think, well, I can carry, you know, 17 rounds
in, you know, this semi -auto or, you know, in
some semi -autos, you're now approaching 20 rounds.
Why is the revolver still relevant? And tell
us a little stories about your experience with
revolvers, both of you guys. Well, you know,
when I started out in police work, we were required
to carry revolvers. And I carried the Smith &
Wesson Model 19 for a number of years. I didn't
switch to automatics until I started running
the narcotics unit. And I switched to a 1911,
primarily a Commander. But, yeah, my heart's
always been with revolvers. I enjoy them, especially
like single -action revolvers for hunting and
general woods bumming and that sort of thing.
So I'm not anti -autos, but I guess my heart
really is with revolvers. Maybe Ken can understand
that. You know, I definitely understand that.
I mean, the first gun I went out and bought over,
what, 45 years ago or something like that was
a, and I did it because I saw some movies, of
course, you know. I bought a Smith & Wesson Model
629. Sure. 44 Magnum, 8 3⁄8 -inch barrel. Why?
I'd just seen one of the Dirty Harry movies,
and I thought it was cool. That was not why I
got into firearms. But when I decided to go out
and buy my first revolver, I go, I'm going to
get that one. And I've enjoyed it for a lot of
these many years. It's still a great firearm.
I mean, it looks almost as new today. I keep
it in really nice shape. It's not a safe queen.
It stays at home all the time. It goes out regularly
and gets exercise. But it's a wonderful, wonderful
firearm. So I'm an iron sights guy. and revolver
guy going way back. Um, and I, and I kind of
kicked myself cause I, I remember the price I
paid for my one. It was $242 back in the day.
Yeah. I wish I could do another, another dozen
of those at that price, you know? Isn't that
the truth? When I started out, uh, I actually
wanted a four inch Python, but they were $125.
And the, uh, Four -inch Model 19, I think I bought
for $87. Oh, my. You want to put a year on that,
Jim? About when was that? 1968 is when I put
a badge on for the first time. Okay. Yeah, with
me, I didn't buy my first until about, what,
1979 or 80, somewhere in that range. Ken, you're
talking about the 629. Yeah, the 629, yeah. It
wasn't Dirty Harry that got me. It was Elmer
Keith that got me. Absolutely. So I had to have
a four -inch Model 29. And that taught me a lot.
The main thing it taught me is that I was never
going to be Elmer Keith Jr. And I simply, I couldn't
do very well with that gun, with Elmer Keith's
loads or full magnums, if I had to switch back
to .44 Special. to really be able to do fast
work with it, fast shooting with it. But the
.44 Magnum is still one of my favorites. I'm
just not much of a hand with that Model 29. Yeah,
I mean, I have never been Alaska salmon fishing,
but if I did, I'm pretty sure that that model
629 would be in a chest holster rig with me out
there when I'm out there fishing, just in case
a grizzly come up behind me wanting my fish,
you know? Yeah, yeah. I had a situation where
my first revolver was a Smith & Wesson Model
625. Now, what's that? That is a .45 ACP revolver.
And I think there's probably some people in the
audience are going, what? Why would you use a
.45 ACP in a revolver? Well, you know, it was
also, I wouldn't say it was a mistake to buy
it, but it was based on a certain degree of ignorance,
I suppose. in the sense that I read an article
and it was so compelling about what a great revolver
this thing is. And it was written by a guy named
Aaron Zellman, who I think has passed on quite
some time ago. He was a very big person in the
gun community back in the day. And he's also
a gunsmith. So he talked about the modifications
that he did. So I bought the gun, basically put
it back in the box and sent it away. And I sent
it to him. uh to get cut down because it was
a longer barrel initially and it was also cut
down to a four inch and he left the end of the
crown yeah left the crown not blued so that it's
very apparent that you know if you're pointing
at something that if it can understand this it
sees a very big hole in the middle of a bright
silver circle and that thing had just the most
amazing trigger job oh yeah Ken may or may not
wish to tell a story about how good this is.
No, I'm not going to tell the story. Okay, we're
not going to tell the story. No, we're not going
to tell that story. But I will tell you, I really
love that revolver of his. Took moon clips, 45
ACP moon clips. First revolver I'd ever seen
that. Yeah, for full moon clips. Which is a very
efficient way to load a revolver. So, Jim, I
mean, if you're, let's say. You've got decades
of experience with these things. When you were
law enforcement, how often did you face a situation?
Or maybe you can tell us some stories about law
enforcement encounters where the gun came out
of the holster. Did you ever have to reload?
Did you fumble your rounds and drop them on the
floor and scraping them up? Or was that just
never really a realistic thing? Give us some
stories. It wasn't for me. I never did have to
reload. And that's a point that I make with our
armed citizens, is that most of the time you
don't have to reload. Now, our law enforcement
people may get in that situation, but the average
citizen bad guy encounter is going to be probably
three shots at about three yards in about three
seconds. Yep. And then it'll be over. That's
an easy one to remember, too. Three shots, three
yards, three seconds. Now, how does that differ
from your experience as a law enforcement officer?
Because you have to run toward the trouble, right?
Not away from the trouble. We run to the gunfire,
and the smart citizen goes the opposite direction.
To me, now as an armed citizen myself, my handgun,
is my exit ticket. I'm going to be trying to
leave. Right. And I will use my handgun if I'm
threatened while I'm trying to leave. The one
exception would be if, you know, somebody was
after my family or a close family member that
I might have to go into it. But my first thought
as an armed citizen is to get away from the threat.
I agree completely, and I think most CCW carriers
would say the same. It's only in those extremely
rare situations where you're forced to step forward
and do something that you do it. I would agree,
though. Retreat is always the best, if possible.
Exactly. That ought to be our mindset. Now, again,
we may have to deal with something different,
but our mindset ought to be, okay, this is a
bad deal. How do I get out of it? Right. So do
you still provide training to civilians? I do.
I haven't done much lately in the last year,
but up until that time, I've taught, I'll teach
three or four classes a year, either here locally
or in the general area, somewhere in the southwest.
Where exactly are you located? I mean, if people
did want to do train with you, where do you train?
I'm located in what we call the Big Bend country
of West Texas. If you look at a Texas map, down
the lower left side looks like a boot heel. We
call that the Big Bend country of the Rio Grande.
It's the only mountains in Texas, as a matter
of fact. But it's part of the Chihuahuan Desert.
It's open. It's big ranch country, small towns,
and big ranch country. I've driven across Texas,
but never as far south as that area. Yeah. So
maybe someday. You would have probably crossed
on I -10 coming out of California. And we're
just below I -10. Yeah, Texas is an amazingly
huge, huge location. I mean, when you're in West
Texas, when I'm driving across Highway 10 in
West Texas, I swear to you, you can sit there
and I go, I haven't moved the steering wheel
in an hour. That's exactly. It's exactly perfectly
straight, you know, and you're just on cruise
control and you're just going. And so it's amazing.
Yeah. Then you finally get into more and more
of a Eastern Texas, you get rolling hills and
stuff like that. Well, you need to stop occasionally,
get some West Texas barbecue. So we're not going
to like, I mean, there are reasons to turn right
to get, you know, or left depending on where
the barbecue place is, but you're not going to,
you're not going to pass that up. I hope. Do
you find yourself now focusing more on, well,
tell the listeners about, your model for Gun
Tales is a little different. It's a subscription
-based service. It's not just a bunch of free
blog out there. And that's because it appears,
at least tell me if I'm wrong about this, you
have no advertising. So you're supporting the
site by subscription, but I am still recommending
that people do that because the quality of the
content there. Tell us about what kind of stuff
you put up there and what people can expect.
Well, our idea for Gun Tales goes back to 30
years ago or so when the gun magazines and outdoor
magazines were as much about entertainment as
they were about information. If you think about
it, back in the day, you'd run out to the mailbox
to get your magazine so you could read. the latest
Jack O 'Connor hunting story or Elmer Keith or
Skeeter Skelton or some of those guys, they told
us stories. Now, you might have a Jack O 'Connor
sheep hunt story and realize halfway through
there that what he's really doing is out test
firing a new Winchester rifle. But they didn't
do... Kind of the gun test format like you see
today. Right, right. And I've always maintained
that most of us read those magazines for as much
for entertainment as we do for information. Absolutely.
Skeeter Skelton was great. Skeeter would have
some story about something on the border or old
Mexico. And a week later, you'd go back and dig
through the same story to get that hand load
that he told you about. And so they serve two
purposes. Now, I'm not going to criticize our
modern magazines. They do what they need to do.
But we just felt like there's a market for people
that like a good story. So what we try to do
is combine. We may tell you the history of some
old gun, or we may talk about hunting techniques.
purpose is to entertain you while we're doing
that. Yeah, I think that's a unique space to
be in because now entertainment seems to be,
I hate to say it, but focused on the short attention
span crowd. And then the other part that's important,
I think, to understand is that a lot, like you
said, a lot of the current gun magazines are
exceptionally technical. Like, you know, they'll
tell you about Every little part inside the gun,
it's a little bit like, this gets dry really
fast. I mean, really fast. Exactly. You're exactly
right. Anyway, that was our thought. And as we
started Gun Tales and we began to get the subscribers,
we realized that there are a whole lot of people
out there that feel that way. And so we've been...
We've been in operation a little over a year,
and we're very pleased. It's still growing. We're
still coming up with ideas and so forth. And
we try to teach, not teach, we try to expose
you to the more practical things. In my view,
and this goes back to personal defense that we
were talking a minute ago too, it's not so much
what you carry, it's what you can do with it.
Can you run with that a little bit? Maybe by
virtue of talking about where people have got
that wrong. Like they Gucci out the gun and they've
got, you know, a race gun that they're carrying
actually as an everyday carry gun, but can't
hit the side of a barn. Exactly. Exactly. And
we focus on guns and gear. For personal defense,
when we really ought to be focusing on awareness,
mindset, and tactics. Because all of those are
more important than what you're carrying. And
you guys know, you've seen it on the internet.
The guy, he'll come out, I just bought a brand
new Brand X pistol. What accessories should I
put on it? He posts that kind of question on
the Internet. And my first thought is the accessory
you need to do is practice ammo. Oh, my God.
This is so good. I'm so glad you're on the show.
That's the greatest accessory you can get is
practice ammo. And then maybe instead of buying
that second or third new gun, maybe you ought
to take that money and go. book a class at gun
site or thunder ranch and actually learn how
to shoot the ones you've already got did that
used to be the ethic or the practice in the gun
community and that has changed or has it just
been we've been deficient in that all along i
think we've i think we've been that way to a
certain extent all along and there again the
gun magazines i think unintentionally but they've
caused that because their focus is on the new
guns or this new sight or this new holster. And
we come along and read those, and I think, well,
that's all I need to do is put these new sights
and this new set of stocks on my pistol, and
I'll be another Jerry Mikulak. Well, I suppose
that taking their perspective as a business,
selling a product, it kind of makes sense. Exactly.
So I can't criticize that, but there's a proportion
here. And I think that Ken and I have talked
about the value of training in the past. And
for example, I'm going to TACCON in March, which
is a little bit of a potpourri, sort of a mousse
bouche of various trainers. It's like a little
sampler plate of what you can get out of different
perspectives. But at that event, I see that there
are... sometimes not only differing perspectives,
but diametrically opposed perspectives. Like,
you know, one guy will say do one, and the other
one will say do the opposite of that technique.
Do you see that in, or do you think that there
are absolutes in gun training, or is it sort
of what works for the customer? Well, I think,
and most of my experience has been with gun sight
and with Thunder Range. with what is essentially
the modern technique of the pistol. And I think
that a lot of those techniques have been passed
on because they work. Now, I don't think any
of that is written in stone, but I would say
that that's a good place to start, if that makes
sense. Let's say I go take a .250 pistol class
at gun sight. That's just a really good start.
That's a good foundation for me. And I may, then
whether or not I later use the Weaver stance
or the isosceles stance, that's no big deal.
You know, it's whatever works for me, but I have
that foundation where I started and that's the
important thing. Do you think then that a lot
of the current, I think the training has probably
become. Maybe, you know, having not been in the
space as long as you, is training becoming more
tactical? And if so, is it because it's more
driven by people who are former military, who
have a different mission set than law enforcement
or a different mission set than the civilian
defender? You know, I've seen that be a problem,
but I don't necessarily think it's a universal
problem. The training has evolved, and I think
most of it's probably good. For example, we used
to teach if you had to engage a target behind
you, let's say a bad guy approaches you from
directly behind, that you simply turned and immediately
presented your pistol on the target. That's assuming
that it really is a bad guy. What if it was a
police officer? So what we're teaching now is
that before you turn and point the gun, you turn
your head and, if possible, get an eyeball on
what is behind you. Then, if necessary, you complete
the turn and present your pistol. Right. That
makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Now, I get approached
by a lot of people who are interested in firearms
for the first time. And, you know, if they walk
into your typical gun store, It just seems like
everybody behind the counter is going to immediately
point them over to buying some new, you know,
semi -automatic pistol. Again, I got nothing
against semi -autos, but I typically tell first
-time people, no, you probably want to start
with a revolver because they're absolutely simpler
to operate. They go bang pretty much every time
you squeeze the trigger. And if later on you
want to buy a second gun and move on to an automatic
and more training and more comfort with it, I'm
all for that. But a lot of people, I just tell
them to start. Would you agree with that recommendation?
If so, what would you recommend? Well, I think
you're exactly right, Ken. The revolver is easier
to understand. I think it's easier for the new
person to operate. The beauty of the revolver,
too, is it requires very little maintenance.
You know, we've all heard stories of people that
buy a revolver, load it up, put it in a desk
drawer, and 20 years from now take it out, and
not only does the gun still work, but the ammo
still fires. So I think there's a lot to be said
for revolvers. Now, some people might find them...
Let me back up. I think they're easy to shoot.
They may not be as easy to shoot well, if that
makes sense. Some people may need to work a little
harder to develop their skills with the revolver.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with
the revolver, for the armed citizen especially.
I know. I would tend to agree with that. I mean,
and one of the things that I have, I'm kind of
a fan of this revolvers that are in the 327 Federal
Chambering. And I know .327 Federal is a pretty
hot load, but it's a .32. And typically, there's
nothing wrong with .38 Special, and that really
used to be my standard go -to. But for a lot
of people that I come across who are first -time
shooters who I know are going to buy exactly
one firearm in their entire life. They're going
to buy it, and they're going to practice with
it, and they're going to lock it in their lockbox
at home, and they're only going to own one. And
I don't know if they're going to age over time.
So, okay, well, the nice thing about the .327
Federal is it's a snappy round. It's loud. It's
high pressure. It's a lot of power. But that's
okay. You don't have to use that. I mean, you
can if you think that's what you want. Get a
few. Get a box of it. Try it out too much. Then
you can back down to the .32 H &R Magnum. Try
that. That's probably a really good round. There's
a lot of nice self -defense loadings that are
out there from the major ammunition manufacturers.
And you can even step down from that to the .32
Smith & Wesson Long, which used to be the standard
police firearm, I think up through like 1900
to like 1930 or something like that. A lot of
police officers carried .32 Smith & Wesson Long.
And then you can also fire .32 Smith & Wesson
Short, which came out in the 1880s. You almost
never find boxes of that, but it would chamber
it if you found it. And you can also chamber
.32 ACP, because .32 ACP is a semi -rimmed cartridge,
and it will actually fit in one of the chambers
for the .327 Federal and fire. Accuracy will
probably be a little bit, because the bullets
will be bouncing down the cylinder until it hits
the rifling. But, you know, again, in a self
-defensive situation, three yards, and you're
probably going to be fine. What are your thoughts
on that? I'm just curious of your opinion. Well,
I think you're exactly right. And if you think
about it, that's exactly what we used to do with
the .357 Magnum. And I still recommend that as
well. You buy a .357 Magnum revolver, you can
shoot Magnums, you can shoot Plus P .38, you
can shoot Standard Velocity .38, or you can even
shoot Target Wad Cutter .38. So you have a real...
range of power that you can choose from. You
may want to load your gun with magnums, but grandma's
gun probably ought to be loaded with target wad
cutters. But the beauty of it is, especially
in a family situation, you buy several of the
same gun. But you may load your personal gun
with one load. Your wife may load her gun with
another load that she's more comfortable with.
And that's another one of the values of the revolver
right there. They're not tied to a certain power
level in their ammunition like the auto is. That's
a great point. Yeah, and your typical 9mm is
really run a whole lot of choices. You have 9mm
and then usually plus P. You get some bullet
weight differences and stuff like that, but they're
all roughly the same amount of recoil for the
most part. Sure. Yeah. Jim, did you find that
in a law enforcement application that certain
calibers, there's actually two things I want
to ask. Let's just since I introduced the caliber
question first, would you say that there's a
minimum that you would consider adequate for
personal? Well, maybe you can divide that, too,
because there's handgun hunters out there. Right.
So you could say for handgun hunting purposes
and then for my focus is more on self -defense
purposes, sort of a minimum that be acceptable.
And then on the other end of that scale, is there
basically something that's. Overkill, like you
never need this, like a .50 cal or something
like that. Well, I don't have a lot of experience
with the .327 like Ken mentioned. What I hear
about it, I hear very good things. But I always
recommended .38 Special as being the bottom floor
for personal defense. and then move up to there
depending on your skill ability if you're you
know willing to practice and handle the magnums
or you might go to 44 special or some of the
other more powerful cartridges i think when in
terms of personal defense when you get up to
like 41 magnum or 44 magnum That really limits
the number of people that can truly handle them
in a defensive situation. We want to at least
deliver two shots to the bad guy. And two fast
shots with a .44 Magnum can be a challenge. I'm
not able to do that with a double -action .44.
I've got to move back to .44 Special to be able
to do it. So you find the power level that you're
able to manage the gun to shoot it quickly and
accurately. And that may be different for you
than for me. Right. I would completely agree
with that. If you're going to be doing carrying
something for self -defense, it's the, it's the
gun that's going to be convenient for you to
carry. So. Great point. Great point. Yeah. Some
of them are, you know, relatively heavy, you
know, and you don't want to carry it. It's just
too heavy on your hip or too heavy here. But
there's been some really great, um, lightweight
revolvers that are out there that I really like.
I like the. Ruger LCR, light compact revolver.
Right. And LCRX, which is the same thing except
it has the exposed hammer. I have both versions
of those, and they come in numerous calibers.
From .22 long rifle, not totally recommended
for self -defense, but if that's all you can
handle, it's better than nothing. I mean, they
always say, what's the best gun to have in a
gunfight? The one you brought with you. One of
the nice things about the LCR is it is lightweight,
and people who carry it, you get to the point
you don't even notice you're carrying it. I know
Smith & Wesson has some ones as well. They have
some 357 Magnum PD, which uses, I think, aluminum,
scanadium, whatever they call it, scandium frame.
Oh, scanadium. Wait a minute. I don't remember
seeing that. That's scandium, I think it is.
I don't think I saw that on the periodic table.
Yeah, it's some alloy that Smith & Wesson has
that'll handle the Magnum, 357 Magnum. I mean,
which... It might be great if you're like a backpacker.
You know, you might have some .357 Magnum hard
cast thing because you're out there hiking the
Pacific Coast Trail or something and you're in,
you know, bear country or something and maybe
you're not going to carry something bigger than
that. I mean, it is, it's a whole lot better
than having nothing. No, you don't have to worry
about that. We're in a liberal state. The bears
got the message. They're not going to, you know,
they'll come up to you with a flower or something
like that. Yeah, right. Around the left coast
here. Go ahead. I really think there's been too
much focus on that. And in the sense that people
try to go with the lightest weight gun they can
possibly find to carry. And they don't shoot
it well. When we get them out on the range, they
don't shoot it well. And they could be carrying
something. I mean, after all, you know, I worked
all, you know, 12 hours. sometimes 12 hours and
more a day in law enforcement, and I was carrying
a 36 -ounce handgun, and I didn't have any problem
at all. So I think a lot of that is your commitment,
your commitment to get better and carry something
you can really shoot well with. I think about
Colonel Walter Walsh, who was a... FBI agent
before World War II. He was a Marine Corps colonel.
Gosh, he lived up until nearly 100 years old.
But Walter Walsh was about, I'd say, 5 '6 or
5 '7, about 140 pounds, and he carried two Smith
& Wesson Model 27s, one on each hip when he was
with the FBI. So there's not much excuse for
the rest of us, you know. One thing I tell people,
too, if you want to complain about how heavy
your defense gun is, why don't you carry your
wife's purse around for a day? I shouldn't laugh
at that. I'd get in trouble. But you're absolutely
correct. It's amazing how many rocks at least
my wife will put in her purse. They're not rocks,
but they're 12 pounds, you know. Because she
doesn't carry, and what she does with her purse
is she bludgeons people to death. Yeah, don't
ever let her hit you with it. No, no. So what
are some of your favorite guns, Jim, even if
they're not in current production? Like, what
have you thought were just the best things to
seek out? I carried the 4 -inch Model 19 Smith
& Wesson when I was in uniform. When I became
a detective, I carried the 2 .5 -inch Model 19.
And to me, the two and a half inch Model 19,
I call it the Cadillac of defensive revolvers.
It's just a great little gun. So I love those.
And the autos that I carried was either a government
model Colt or a Colt Commander. And I relied
on those heavily. My favorite hunting guns. are
the old model Rugers, the old flat -top Rugers
that they came out with back in the 50s, both
in .357 and in .44 Magnum. And those are my favorite
hunting handguns. So I qualify as a FUD, I guess.
I think I do more and more every day, no doubt.
Yeah. But another one I really have a high regard
for is a... Browning Hi -Power. And I was fortunate
enough to get a Hi -Power that Nighthawk Custom
had worked over. And I love it. It's a great
pistol too. Yeah, I actually have a Hi -Power.
They are great pistols. My one is a World War
II take back one. So, but yeah, very interesting.
Mine does not have as probably not nearly as
polished as yours. Mine was a mid -war, mid -World
War II one. So it had tooling marks and other
things that they were just getting them out as
quick as possible. One of the guns, the new guns
that I got recently is one of the new three -inch
Python, Colt Pythons. And it was a stainless
gun. Tyler Gunworks did an action job on it,
and then I had the stainless gun bead blasted.
Some of these new Colt revolvers that are coming
out are really nice guns, and I really like that
new Python. Yeah, we saw those, and I played
with them for quite a while at the SHOT Show.
I'm very impressed by them, actually, what was
coming from the factory. And I attribute that
a lot to CNC, you know, computer numerical control
machines. Whereas before, back in the 50s and
60s and 70s, when they were making these things,
there was a lot of hand fitting and hand, you
know, it's got to be just perfect. But the great
thing about computers is the repeatability. So,
yeah, they are putting out a phenomenal new product.
But they're all up above, I think, $1 ,200, $1
,300 and up. At least in this neck of the woods
they are. But, yeah, they would be kind of one
on my list of things to acquire at some point
in time. Yeah, well, I recommend it. I highly
recommend it. I sure like it. Well, then, for
both of you, I have a question which I think
the listeners are going to want an answer to,
too. If some of these guns are, I mean, Colt,
yeah, they're expensive. Perhaps they're worth
it. There's a number of other high -end revolver
manufacturers out there, some of them newer than
others. Where's the value proposition? Should
one spend that much or is it just a matter of
just personal preference? Or in lieu of spending
a lot on the gun as an entry point, you know,
Jim, what modifications would you recommend to
an existing gun, you know, to make it work better
and maybe do it at a lower cost than just replacing
it? Sadly, and I'm not going to go into a lot
of detail, I don't want to be too critical, but
quality control has kind of become a problem
in our industry. And on the new revolvers I've
seen and fooled with, before I carried one, I
think I would want to have my gunsmith go through
it, maybe smooth up the action a little bit,
check everything to make sure it works like it's
supposed to. I get along pretty well with factory
sights. I like adjustable sights, but factory
sights work fine. As long as it's got a trigger
job, I like a nice smooth trigger and as easy
as possible. I don't want a hair trigger on a
defense gun, but I want it smooth and clean breaking.
And generally you have to go to a gunsmith to
get that. Often, a lot of times, if a person
knows a little bit about guns, you can save a
lot of money at a gun show or something like
that with an older Model 10 Smith & Wesson 38
that maybe was a police trade -in. Those can
be awfully good guns and not terribly expensive
in the long run. So there are a number of ways.
There again, if you don't know much about guns,
you might want to have a gunsmith look at one
of those. But I've seen, I saw just the other
day, one of the big distributors has gotten a
big load of Colton and Smith & Wesson police
trade -in revolvers. And those things are priced
pretty well and will do a good job as a personal
defense gun. I completely agree. Um, I, and this
is frugal firearms. So, you know, one of those
things that I am a big advocate of is, um, use
secondhand, thirdhand, whatever firearms, as
long as they're in good shape and, you know,
you go into, I, I love to go to pawn shops. you
know, go into pawn shops, look at things. I love
to go into gun stores and yeah, I see the new
rack there, but I tend to gravitate toward the,
for the cabinet or the, whatever that has all
of the, the, uh, the trade in stuff, you know,
and, and look at that. And, um, particularly
with pawn shops, what I love about pawn shops
are, is they will put a price on it, which is
pretty darn near what the current list price
is on a brand new one. And pawn shops are, those
are all suggested prices. I'm not here to tell
you how to wheel and deal your way through a
pawn shop. But, you know, they typically are
going to be paying about 40 cents on the dollar
for what they're going to actually sell it for.
Because they don't know how long they've got
to hold it. They may have it there for a month.
They may have it there for two years. Exactly.
They get to trade in at a relatively low price.
There's a low investment. If you come in and,
you know, I've gotten hundreds of dollars off
on things which I purchased there before telling
them, you know, would you take this? And they're
like, no. And I go, it's cash. And then they
go, oh, well, that's a different story because
they need to have a certain amount of cash flowing
through the system, you know, and then you fill
out your 4473. California, you got to wait 10
days, then you got to come back and pick it up,
which is all fine. I mean, it's not really fine.
It's kind of a pain in the ass, but. I can't
believe you said that was fine. It's not fine.
Let me tell you why it's not fine. Okay. My daughter
lives in Northern California. Okay. And I will
go up and visit. We'll go and visit her. It's
great. Wonderful. Now, I, but I don't, I intentionally
do not go to pawn shops and gun stores in Northern
California. Why? Because I'm going to probably
walk in there, fall in love with something, you
know, it's probably something older, something
used, something in good shape, something unique,
something interesting I want to buy. And I'll
sit there and go, it's a great deal. But then
you got to factor in, okay, first off, I'm not
going to be there in 10 days because 10 days
I'm going to be back in Southern California.
And so it's like, okay, you know, okay. And daughter
came. You can't pick it up because it's federal
paperwork. No, no, no. Yeah, that'd be a straw
purchase, right? Exactly. So the only way to
pick it up is to have it shipped to you. Okay,
now you have the FFL here. You got a shipping
cost. You got an FFL to receive it. And all of
a sudden, the good deal becomes, no, it's not
a good deal anymore. You know, it's just ratcheted
up the price by the time I can get it back to
me here in San Diego. It's just too much. I don't
even bother anymore. And I think that's partly
intentional. You know, that the government, they're
trying to make it as pain in the whatever as
they possibly can. I had long discussions with
the FBI when I was at the SHOT Show, talking
to them about the NICS, the National Instant
Criminal Background Check, NICS, N -I -C -S system.
And I said, you know, why can't we mandate that
everybody use this? Just like you walk into a
restaurant and you want to buy something, you
whip out your credit card, you wand it in, it
tells you right away whether you're approved
or you're disapproved, you know. Why can't we
do this? Particularly with people who are collectors,
already have CCWs, already have an FFL, they
already have, you know, you've been through the
system a dozen times, you know, a hundred times
maybe, I don't know. And why can't we do that?
But no, they can't. So you just got to come back
in 10 days like they've never seen you before.
So, yeah. But that's not the case in Texas. Do
you have any waiting period or three days or
cash and carry? What is it like there? We don't
have a waiting period. And if you have a concealed
carry license, they don't even have to do a background
check on you. Perfect. The thing you have to
understand about all of that is bureaucracy is
set up to perpetuate itself. Yeah. The idea of
making something simpler just doesn't work. That's
not what their mind is. I was working as the
elected county sheriff when we were first trying
to get concealed carry licenses in Texas. And
my suggestion was, you don't have to do a license
for the citizen. If you stop and think about
it, any time a policeman stops you, he wants
to see your identification. He wants your driver's
license. So I said, we simply flag the driver's
licenses of convicted felons, make them a different
color or have some key number. And that's all
you need. That way, if the guy's got a gun, he
knows he's a convicted felon. Boom, he goes to
jail. If you've got a clean driver's license,
you're cool to go. I got nowhere with that. Our
Department of Public Safety just wasn't going
to go for that. They were already seeing where
they were going to get to increase their budget
and get more money from the state, more taxpayer
money. So that all went down the way. But, yeah,
we can make it a lot simpler. And we have a constitutional
carry now in Texas, and you can carry, you can
even open carry without a license at all. Okay,
so let me ask you about the open carry thing
then, because that's also something that, oddly
enough, in California is coming up as might be
able to do that. And you're former law enforcement,
so this is, you have a perfect perspective because
you've got both sides. You've got the civilian
side and you've got the law enforcement side.
Is carrying openly, in your opinion, just an
attraction to having problems from people who
get triggered? Or is it attracting the wrong
element who might gang up on you and try to take
your gun? Or do you see it as kind of a net positive?
Well, I see it pretty much as a negative. Now,
let me say this. I support constitutional carry.
So I think you ought to be able to carry concealed
or openly as you choose. Then when you come to
me for advice, my advice to you would be don't
carry open in most cases. Now, I'll give you
an example. We're at gun sight all day for a
class. We're carrying openly. So if we're going
to run into town to the grocery store after class
is over, I'm not going to take the gun off. I'll
leave it on. If we're out handgun hunting and
run in to get a bite of lunch before we go back
out, I'm not going to take the gun off. But as
a general rule, I recommend having it concealed.
And that's the reason being is. is if the bad
guys jump you, I want them to be surprised. Right,
right. And if they see you've got a gun on and
they decide to jump you, they're probably going
to be in control before you can do anything about
it. Good point, yeah. So my suggestion, I prefer
concealed carry as a general rule. Okay, I'm
going to stay on the topic then from your previous
law enforcement experience. Did you, maybe you
don't have to tell me how often, but I'm assuming
you're in Texas, so it's going to happen occasionally.
You'd execute a stop on somebody, you know, they're
armed. What was your preference in how they conducted
themselves and informed you of that? And how
did those encounters go? And maybe you throw
me a story or two for the listener's benefit
about the wrong way to do that. Here in Texas,
we recommended that you simply tell the officer
during a traffic stop when he walks up, just
tell him. How you're going to tell him, you're
going to have both hands on the top of the steering
wheel where he can see both of your hands. If
it's nighttime, you've reached down and turned
on your interior light so he can see real well.
And then when he walks up, just simply tell him
that you're armed. And then do whatever he says.
Most of them now, if it's concealed or... If
it's in the console of your vehicle, most of
the officers now will just tell you, let's just
leave it there and we'll take care of our business.
He has a right to take it from you and hold it
while he does. And I just do whatever he wants
to do. That's not the place to argue and get
by the easiest way you can. Growing up in Texas,
especially rural Texas, We had kind of a different
perspective about firearms. Many, many times
I'd pull up, you know, we get a burglary call
or a citizen needing help, got a prowler or something,
you pull up there and the citizen's out there
in the yard with his shotgun. So to me, I never
found that a time to go ballistic, you know.
I might get out and I'd... I'm looking at him.
I'm making judgments about what he looks like.
I'm thinking, that's the citizen. And the gun's
not pointed at me. Most of the time, I would
just say, sir, why don't you lay that on the
ground and then come over here and talk to me?
And I didn't see those as an opportunity or a
need to draw my gun and go Wyatt Earp on him.
If I had shot every person that I had a legal
right to shoot, I'd be way ahead of Hickok's
record or John Wesley Harden's record. And most
law enforcement officers are like that. Where
it becomes a problem is when you have a police
officer that is not very well skilled with his
firearm. So when he gets in a deal where there
may be firearms, he's nervous. And that's where
somebody may get hurt. Growing up around guns,
I got my first gun when I was 11. I never was
really interested in outdoor, in regular organized
sports. I liked the outdoors and messing with
guns and roaming the creeks. And so guns just
never scared me. But I think after a while, you're
able to read people. If you're successful in
that work, you're able to read people. Again,
I would often just say, sir, why don't you put
that gun on the porch and come over here and
talk to me? And that's all we did. He's on his
own property with his shotgun. He's not breaking
the law. There's no point in making a federal
case out of it, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's
a very important lesson for people. You said
a couple things. You didn't say it, but you implied
don't use the word gun because that is a quote
-unquote triggering term for some police, as
we've seen recently, actually. made the point
that you're just trying to be reasonable, make
the officer feel safe, don't make him feel like
you're a threat at any point in the conversation.
And if an argument does ensue, that's not the
time or the place for it. That's adjudicated
in court. Yeah, you're exactly right. Who can
tell us that they've ever seen a policeman, when
the driver got mad, the policeman said, oh, listen,
I'm sorry, I'll tear up the ticket. I didn't
mean to make you mad. You know, it's one of the
stupidest things people do is sit out there on
the side of the road and argue with that police
officer. It's just, it's a waste of time. It's
silly. So I wanted to ask you a question about
your training and not formal training, just the
way you, I guess, brought yourself up. Are you
a... And I'm thinking revolvers here. I'm kind
of focusing on revolvers. Okay. A lot of them
vary. You said you like adjustable sights. And
a lot of them don't have adjustable sights. So
they just have a blade front and a notch rear
or something like that. Are you a front -focused,
a front -sight -focused guy or a target -focused
guy? In personal defense, I'm a front -sight
-focused. In handgun hunting, I'm a target -sight
-focused. So distinguishing between those two
things, what do you think about, you know, now
you can get mounts for red dots for revolvers?
Do you think that either because of astigmatism
or your close ability to focus is, you know,
your near focus abilities are starting to go
off? Do you like red dots or would you just say,
well, at any practical distance, it doesn't matter
anyway? I'm not a big red dot fan. Now, I think
if you have some sort of a physical situation
where you have trouble seeing the iron sights,
by all means, try the red dots. But I'm suspicious.
I'm not sure I want anything on a defense gun
that takes batteries. I agree. And I get along
fine with the iron sights. I do like, particularly
on a defense gun, I want something on the front
sight that says, look at me. Now, I happen to
like the gold dots on the front sight. I don't
have a problem with white dots or whatever, but
something on the front sight that says, hey,
look at me. And that helps me true up that sight
picture just before I break the shot. It's going
back to what we were saying earlier about marketing.
Like, oh, this is the new shiny thing I can put
on my gun to compensate for my lack of training.
So I'll put a red dot on it, and now I'm Wyatt
Earp again, where before I wasn't. Is that where
that is, or is there a legitimate need for, I
guess, you know, maybe broadly speaking, since
the revolver has been largely the same for so
long, and now we have... They're not hammerless,
they're shrouded hammers, but kind of the same
point. You now have hammers that are concealed.
Do you like the double action only as a development
so that you don't get into a situation in court
where you had a quote -unquote hair trigger on
your single action and you didn't really need
to shoot the guy, but you did anyway because
you were nervous and your finger flinched? Or
are there other developments and revolvers that
you think either are there that people need to
pay attention to or could be there? I've carried
double -action revolvers both ways. When I worked
as a detective and investigator, we had to wear
a suit coat. And so I used a bob hammer on my
2 1⁄2 -inch 19 just to keep from tearing up the
lining on my suit coat and practiced and trained
for double action. So I don't have a problem
with that if there's a need. if you identify
a real need. But you have to have some training
before you actually know what the needs are.
And, you know, a lot of people, they'll run out
and get a, let's say, a red dot sight on their
gun just because they read somewhere that that's
cool or they think it's cool. That's probably,
that could be a mistake. I'm not really against
red dots because that's sort of, That sort of
development, we don't know what improvements
that will lead to down the road. So I think there
always needs to be some experimentation in terms
of sights or whatever else, ammunition, whatever.
But in terms of defense guns, I don't want to
get caught in a gunfight with some kind of experimental
equipment. That just doesn't appeal to me at
all. Does that mean that people, you said experimental,
do you think that that means that people simply
aren't pressure testing themselves enough in
training to know what is going to be reliable
and what isn't? In other words, is that the user's
fault? I think that's true. I think a lot of
people, and again, let's stay with personal defense,
but a lot of people, they have the... It's sort
of the John Wayne syndrome. All I need to do
is buy a gun, put bullets in it, and I'm a bad
guy. And that's probably the least consideration,
least important consideration of the whole thing.
Too few people take advantage of the good defensive
training that's available in this country. Yeah,
you may figure a lot of that stuff out on your
own, but let me tell you something. On -the -job
training in gunfights is not a good idea. Yeah,
completely agree, yeah. We've talked about training
many, many times on this show, and that's something
that we really want to hammer home. We encourage
people to get the frugal firearms aspect of it
where you can get into the shooting sports and
enjoy them for very little. But one of the things
you shouldn't skimp on is some very quality training.
And quality training is available most everywhere,
particularly in any pretty much urban area. I
think across the country you can find somebody
or some group that will offer it. And if not,
then you can do something like Craig is doing
and heading off to TACCON, which is phenomenal
training. Craig, you want to talk about that
a little bit? Well, I do. TACCON is not a resource
that's available to everybody. And by that, I
don't mean that's not an elitist statement. The
reason is that they only have 400 spots and it
sells out the first day that they announce it
and they announce it like 10 months before it
happens. So it's like basically if you're not
pulling the trigger. Oh, hey, that was OK. I
didn't really need to use that. You're not clicking
the mouse. I didn't. Yeah. If you're not clicking
the pulling the trigger. God dang it. Why did
I do that? OK, if you're not ready for it on
the day it announces, you're not going. And and
so it's a little bit of an aberration because
of the way they run it. However, it is run. by
Mr. Tom Givens, who is also a very well -known
gun trainer. Yes. And it sounds like you maybe
know of him or maybe directly know him, Jim.
I think I've met Tom. I do not know him well,
but I think I've met Tom at SHOT Show and stuff.
You know, he had something interesting at the
end. I don't think I've passed this story on
before, but at the end of one of his classes,
usually an instructor will say, okay, guys, go
unload and show clear. Cool. Okay. I'm just used
to that. In his class, he goes, go grab a full
magazine, put it in the gun, rack it and put
it in your holster and come back. And that's
at the end of class. And exactly like, I wonder
why he does that. And I believe the number he
said was, he goes, let me tell you guys a story.
He goes, I am referring to his trainees and the
people he's trained. I think he said he was 81,
zero and one. What does that mean? Well, the
81 is the number of people he's trained who have
actually had firearms -based encounters where
they won or they prevailed. It doesn't mean they
killed somebody. It just means they prevailed.
Zero is the number of times that his students
have been armed and have not prevailed. But what
was the one? The one was the guy who lost by
default. And the thing he reinforces is that
that guy was trained by him, didn't have a gun
on him. at the time of need and lost the encounter.
So he reminds you, carry your effing gun, although
he spells that word out completely. And he emphasizes,
carry your effing gun, because it won't do you
any good if it's in the trunk or at home or the
glove box or whatever. So stemming off what you
were saying, Ken, there are lots of guys out
there who hang a shingle out and say, I'm a trainer.
Maybe, Jim, you could comment on how do we know
who the good from the not so good are? Because
they're all over the country, and we've talked
to some very good ones. But, you know, the novice
coming in, that person doesn't know good from
bad. Well, that's true. And I think one of the
ways to counter that is to go with a well -known
training facility. You do your homework, ask
questions around locally at your gun shop with
other shooters and so forth. Actually, tune in
regularly to Frugal Firearms podcast, and you'll
begin to get some ideas. You hear names, you
know, and so that gives you an idea. But to your
point, gun sight does the same thing. Gun sight
is a completely... live ammo school from the
from day one they the first day though they tell
you that please leave your gun in the holster
until we tell you to take it out but at noontime
they uh put everybody on the line and their instructions
are draw your gun and put it in the condition
you want it to be in during the lunch break same
thing at the end of the day for whatever reason,
you may feel the need to unload it. They don't
expect you to unload it. They expect you to be
safe with it and follow the safety rules and
leave it holstered when not appropriate. So to
Tom Givens, I think Tom Givens is exactly right
with that approach. And people need to get used
to that. You know, we went through this for a
while with this business of let's don't have
a round at the chamber. You know, there were
those advocates that, oh, you'll have plenty
of time to chamber a round. Yeah, right. Yeah,
Israeli Defense Forces train that way. They carry
without a round in the chamber. And they're good
about putting a round in the chamber pretty quickly.
I know. It's not as quick as if you didn't, and
you require two hands to do that. It's not as
quick as already having it in the chamber. Is
this the seatbelt analogy thing where, you know,
don't put the seatbelt on after the accident?
I don't know. I don't actually know why they
do that. But I should ask one of my friends who
was an Israeli police officer, and he trained
that way. But I have one other question. You
mentioned that you went from revolvers to 1911s.
45 1911s as your carry. Were you running that
cocked and locked, or did you cock it on draw?
How did you carry your 1911? Oh, I always carried
cocked and locked, same with the high power.
Okay. That's from the get -go. We're influenced,
particularly as a young officer here in Texas,
we're influenced a lot by the old -time Texas
Rangers. And, uh, that's the way they always
carried was cocked and locked. And, uh, uh, so,
uh, you know, and then by that also at that time,
I discovered, uh, Jeff Cooper and reading his
work. And he's certainly here. He was saying
the same thing. Yeah. I love Jeff Cooper, man.
That was, boy, you talk about a storyteller.
Damn. Oh my God. That's good. Jeff, Jeff Cooper
was the most, uh, He was just a wonderful gift
to all of us because he could take the material
that needed to be taught, he could put it together
in an understandable way, and he came up with
a really good way to teach it to us. I tell people,
if you go take a week -long 250 class at gun
sight, you're better trained than most police
officers. That was important, what you just said.
Better trained than most police officers. And
I add also to Thunder Ranch to that because Clint
Smith, he started under Cooper. Right, right.
And he's a gruff, tough individual, but this
is a serious business that we're talking about
here too. But Clint ought to be a stand -up comedian
is what he ought to be. He can come up with some
of the most wonderful one -liners. That I've
ever heard. I've never met him in person, but
everything I've seen from him makes me think
that I would be fearful of laughing for the idea
that I'm now going to get burned to the ground
because, you know, what he said wasn't a joke.
Yeah. Here's what happens with Clint. Clint will
come up with one of those one -liners that crack
you up, but you remember it. You don't forget
it. Yeah. See, that's the essence of education
is remembering. If you don't remember it, it
doesn't matter how much you're exposed to if
you can't recall it. That's right. And you can't
use it. That's right. Right. Clint is a very
good instructor. I find him more personable than
I did Colonel Cooper. By just a little bit. Clint's
just a little more approachable than Colonel
Cooper was. And a lot of that may have been just
the difference in our age. But Colonel Cooper
was always very nice to me, and I respected him
very much. But Clint's the kind of guy I wouldn't
have any trouble, you know, getting together
after class and asking him a few questions or
whatever, you know. I always, the few times he'd
come to SHOT Show, I always loved getting to
see him and his wife. And I have a good visit,
but either way, but Cooper gave us a wonderful
gift with the modern technique of the pistol.
So do you have any, well, do you still get to
SHOT Show at all? Pardon me? Do you still go
to SHOT Show at all? I haven't in the last couple
of years. I don't have to. That crowd drives
me nuts, so I just stay home. It's a big damn
crowd. And you know what? I wanted to point something
out. I just realized I made a mistake, and I'm
going to put this in the show notes. I said guntales
.com. It is not guntales .com. It's guntales
.net. Very important, folks, that if you want
to find his site, because guntales .com, turns
out it goes nowhere. So GunTales .net. So along
those lines, you know, as we kind of finish out
here, Jim, you got a favorite story you want
to share with our listeners or any little closing
remarks or anything like that? We were talking
about revolvers a while back and about the different
power levels in revolvers. I carried a Model
19 in police work, but we had to carry plus P38s
that the department issued. And I was a young
Turk. I thought we ought to be able to carry
magnums. The chief and I did not agree. But I
got hold of one of Skeeter Skelton's articles,
and I found where he would load 38 special cases
with enough 2400 to drive the bullet about 1200
feet per second. So I sat down and cobbled me
up some of those 38, those hot, hot 38 special
loads. I was real proud. I'd tricked the chief
completely. So I got out on a mad dog call one
night and had to shoot it. I called my sergeant
to give him a shots fired notice. Turned out
the chief was out, so he came by. And I was the
hero of the neighborhood. This was really a bad
dog, and people were all glad that I killed it.
So everything was cool. Just before we left,
the chief called me over and he said, son, come
here a minute. He turned this big dog over and
he said, look what your 38 special did to that
dog. He said, I don't want to hear any more about
Magnum Ammo. I had absolutely outsmarted myself.
Well, that's why he's chief and you weren't.
And it's sir, yes, sir. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
All right. Thank you, Jim, for your time. This
has been great. I'd love to, at some point down
the road, wouldn't mind doing this again because
this has been, I think, for me, one of the most
fun shows that I think we've done. I've really
enjoyed this a lot. Well, thank you so much.
I have too, but you and Ken both, and you've
got our contact information, so holler at me
and we'll visit again. I've certainly enjoyed
it. Once I figured out all this technology stuff,
we'll just leave the settings just the way they
are. And this next time you'll know what they
are. So, uh, so thanks again, Jim. Appreciate
it. Thank you very much. Well, we've had a wonderful
opportunity to talk with Jim down in Texas today,
and he has a wealth of experience, and we got
to reminisce about some stories as well as how
important revolvers are, and oftentimes it's
my particular favorite for first -time shooters
that they purchase a revolver first. I mean,
I think that the idea that a revolver is a good
first gun is absolutely... Oh, God, I'm going
to make another... I almost said on target, and
I don't want to use all these silly gun... It
is the right decision. I agree with that. Now,
I am more of a semi -auto guy, and that's not
to be argumentative with any of Jim's content.
It's just that is the way that my gun experience
has evolved. But probably as a more frequent
user, maybe I'm in a better position to be able
to do that. But I'm certainly not going to say
that revolvers don't have a valid and continuing
valid use in the space. They absolutely do. And
you know what? If time comes that I have to use
a semi -auto in self -defense and it doesn't
work, with what remaining time I have left, I'm
going to reflect on this episode. Okay, folks,
thanks again for joining us. This has been an
outstanding show. Do not forget that we need
you to like, subscribe, pass the word on, because
that's how we grow the show. And if you didn't
hear it in the front end, you will know that...
They reached out to us. So this was because of
the success that the audience is creating for
us by getting better guests, because they were
the ones that came to us and said that they wanted
to be hosted on the show. To me, that just says
success. And it's not just our success for Ken
and I, it's success for you guys as the audience,
because you're getting good content by helping
us get good content. I think that's about it
for tonight. Not sure what the next show is going
to be, Ken. We've got a few different companies
all kind of queuing up. I mentioned that there
were some samples that were being sent to us
of things that we already have in hand and things
that we haven't tested yet. Ken, when are we
going to get to the range and try this stuff
out? Oh, we've got to do that. I think so. I
think so. But up until that time, look forward
to hearing from you guys at frugalfirearmspodcast
at gmail .com, which is also linked on the homepage
of frugalfirearmspodcast .com. So I think that's
about it for tonight. Good night, folks. Good
night, folks. I tell you what, let me get our
technical guy on the phone here real quick, and
we'll figure out what to do here. Because Jim
and I are not technical. I think they already
figured that out. I was guessing that, gentlemen,
but I wasn't going to. This is a miracle we even
got this far. I wasn't going to say anything,
so yeah, okay. What you're up against is two
old retired cops.