Hey Frugal Firearms Podcast listeners, today
we have the first part of a two -part series
that we recorded with Jeff Goldstein of High
Value Training Academy as well as his other business
of BrassBuyers .com. Since his show covered two
separate topics, we decided to split this into
two episodes. So first, you're going to hear
from Jeff talking about High Value Training Academy,
and then in a future episode down the road, you'll
hear him discuss BrassBuyers .com. So listen
in, enjoy, and remember, always like, subscribe,
comment, and tell your friends. You should have
to submit your completion certificate for basic
pistol, basic rifle with your 1099 every year.
Like you shouldn't get your tax refund until
you prove that you have basic firearms training.
Because I can't think of two things that are
more American than getting your tax refund and
civilian firearm training. Welcome to episode
24 of the Frugal Firearms podcast, the podcast
that is designed from the ground up to help you
get the most for your shooting dollar, help you
spend money wisely, and help you get the most
enjoyment out of your shooting experience. But
part of that experience comes down to what? Training.
So today is a show dedicated to the value proposition
of training and why that has to be part of your
investment strategy when it comes to shooting.
And additionally, our guest today also owns another
business that has not a darn thing to do with
training. Well, maybe it does if you reload,
and we'll get into that later. But first off,
I'm going to mention that it's important for
you guys. I mean, if you like the show, I want
you to tell your friends, but you need to subscribe.
You need to like the show. You need to share
it. You need to leave comments. You need to do
those things because we're putting in the hard
work to get you a good product. And the way that
we get a better product is by getting better
guests. And how do we get better guests? By growing
the audience. And how do we grow the audience?
We grow the audience by having you guys help
out the algorithms to get us the notoriety that
we need. And, you know, since the last episode,
Ken, welcome to the show, my co -host Ken, you
know, how many countries have we added to the
listener base here? It's surprising. I mean,
we're worldwide. I think you've got to lay the
stats on it, but we're now worldwide listened
to. Yeah, we have new listeners in Singapore
and Costa Rica, the Philippines. And thank you
for joining in Canada. Maybe they'll get better
laws some days. Finland and Brazil, South Africa,
and of all places, Colombia. That was a bit of
a surprise. You know, I'm kind of thinking that
maybe sometime soon, maybe we'll get listeners
in Venezuela and perhaps an actual republic of
the people in Iran. That would be kind of cool,
too. Although I think that Iran's probably some
distance away from having a Second Amendment
like ours. Anyway, today we have Jeff Goldstein,
who is from High Value Training Academy. He is
the founder. He's also the owner of BrassBuyers
.com. And we're going to talk about both of those
businesses. Most of the show is going to center
on his training efforts. And he, by the way,
folks, has a very unique model. Because if you
look at his site, which is, by the way, HighValueTraining
.org, You scroll down the list of classes and
you think, yeah, you know, this class looks pretty
good. And then you look at the cost and the cost
says zero. And you're like, huh? What do you
mean cost is zero? So we're going to bring Jeff
on to explain how his business operates and why
it's fundamentally different than others and
why it is absolutely at the center of a value
proposition. So, Jeff, welcome to the show. Thanks,
guys. Glad to be here. so go ahead and why don't
you you know just right out of the gate like
i said a couple businesses here that are kind
of unique but you know what's your background
including your original story of of high value
training academy and then later we'll circle
back into the brassbuyers .com site it actually
came together relatively quickly so uh years
ago i decided that i wanted to go down the path
of formalizing becoming a firearms instructor
and to be honest i didn't really know anything
about that i know that if you go to a range they
have instructors i'm sure that you know i'm just
going through my mental process i'm sure there
are law enforcement people that do instruction
i'm sure there are military military veterans
who do instruction But I'm neither of those.
And so I really didn't know much about civilian
firearms instruction. So I just started doing
research. And then probably luckily, the very
first place I found was the NRA website. It's
kind of wordy. There's a lot of paragraphs there.
But they describe if you want to become a civilian
firearms instructor, how you would go about doing
that. And then there's some links to begin taking
classes. Through the process of taking classes,
I kind of got tricked and I'll explain that to
you here in just a second. But through the process
of taking classes, I went through the curriculum
initially to become certified pistol instructor.
And of course, in my mind, I'm thinking, OK,
how do I turn this into a business? Now, here's
where the trick came in. The very first NRA instructor
I ever had who taught the. basics of pistol shooting
student course um he is uh somebody i still have
great contact with today uh and he's an excellent
instructor and i went to his class and there
were probably 30 students in the class i don't
know maybe 25 students i'm looking around and
i'm thinking oh my god there's this this unlimited
demand for these courses i'm going to become
an instructor and i'm always going to have 25
or 30 people in the class then when i went to
take my basics pistol shooting instructor class
i think there were like eight of us in that class
and then all of a sudden it hit me oh wait a
minute where's the 25 30 people that i thought
were going to be in here and so right so then
all of a sudden i'm thinking wait where where
are all the people what happened to this unlimited
demand i thought i was walking into i started
talking to the nra training counselor that i
was working with and i asked him you know just
for advice because i i'm not ashamed to say there's
something i don't know and to ask questions about
it so i started asking you know how do you build
a business around this and He gave me some suggestions,
and one of the suggestions he gave me was, you
may want to consider being a nonprofit, setting
up as a nonprofit. And so I asked, well, you
know, what's the benefit of being a nonprofit?
And he said, look around this room. You see these
projectors, you see these tables, these chairs,
the furniture that's in here, my desk. he said
when when you're a non -profit you might be able
to get your hands on the things that you need
to set up a training school more cost effectively
or even receive donations from places you know
there's business some business going out of business
and they have tables and chairs that they just
need to get out of the the room and you know
maybe they'll be willing to donate it to you
if you give them a thank you letter for the value
of their donation things like that so in my head
i was thinking okay so that's an option um and
what really pushed me in the direction of non
-profit was the covet pandemic and some of the
unfortunate events that unfolded during pandemic
times that led to a lot of quote -unquote peaceful
protests or riots or whatever. And I'm looking
at a couple pieces of data. One is the statistics
that are published on how many guns are sold
every year. Then also, how many of those guns
are sold to new gun owners? And we know that
from people who are first -time 4473 applicants.
And so we have this new gun quantity. We have
this new gun owner quantity. And then I'm looking
at, you know, I'm watching the news and I'm thinking,
gosh, you know, I bet there's people that are
going out and buying these probably guns for
concealed carry purposes. And they're never going
to a training class. I need to get in front of
these people. I want to be able to offer my services
to them to help them. at least get their start,
right? So most of our customers are new shooters,
beginner shooters, some intermediate shooters,
but mostly new and beginner shooters. And it
just felt like the right thing to do. And so
I started going down the path of forming a nonprofit
organization and then applying for 501c3 status
with the IRS. We just keep building it. Then
we got a website, right? I mean, this is all
grassroots scratching and clawing. It's, you
know, generous donations from friends and family
to get this thing off the ground, right? I mean,
your website's pretty good. I think that you've
done, you know, a good job of at least, you know,
the face of the company is a pretty good one.
And the amount of variety there is pretty impressive
too. We have a phenomenal website developer.
I met him through a local small business organization
where I live, and he did Brass Buyers. And I
had a vision in my head for Brass Buyers. I know
we're going to get to that later. But I had a
vision in my head for how I wanted Brass Buyers
to work. And that is actually a very complicated
website. So I know a lot of people will use those
newer like self -service. websites where you
can you know sign up and subscribe and you create
your own website and they look beautiful and
they're based on templates they're easy to um
manage that that is not my websites uh brass
buyers was actually a very complicated website
because it gives people the ability to both buy
and sell and if you think about it not a lot
of websites have a sell option they all have
a buy option but very few of them have a sell
option and so uh i went back to him and i said
hey uh what do you think about doing another
website for high value training? And I said,
this is going to be a very basic website compared
to Brass Buyers. And he was, us being a nonprofit,
he was very generous with his time. We did pay
him, but we're very fortunate to have him as
our web developer because he doesn't charge us
a lot of money to keep the website going. And
so, you know, it's good that we do have a wish
list for it, to be fair, that we're, you know,
working through. But, you know, we understand
that those things are also going to come at a
cost. So what makes you a I mean, I guess you
kind of talked about the motivation to become
an instructor and set it up as as an as a nonprofit,
which seems to be a good idea, honestly, the
way you did it. But what makes you qualified
to do this? I mean, obviously you have the NRA
certification and you probably have some degree
of experience now. How would you differentiate
yourself from other trainers? Yeah, that's a
really good question. So I think it's very difficult
to differentiate the qualifications for a firearms
instructor who's instructing new and beginning
shooters. you're not really leveraging the instructor's
full skill set for that right you're leveraging
the uh basic skill set that i would think most
firearms instructors will have what i like to
say is my differentiator and i think this plays
into the idea of the non -profit is that um i
like to teach so i do a little bit of teaching
at my full -time job i teach college courses
part -time uh teach business business school
uh courses part -time for local college uh face
-to -face not online stuff like you know standing
in a classroom in front of 20 students a very
student outcome focused and so that also helps
me personally rationalize operating as a non
-profit because Profit is not my primary motivator
for doing this. I think we should all have some
sort of calling and that we, you know, give our
time to, you know, whatever it is in your community,
your church, your synagogue or whatever. And
so I'm almost too focused on the student outcomes.
Or I may even give a little bit more of my time
than I should sometimes. Well, that's not a bad
thing. I mean, if you're trying to produce better,
safer shooters, I think that that's, you know,
very laudable of you to do that. But, you know,
you also aren't in this. as necessarily a charity.
I mean, maybe there's charitable aspects of 501c3
organizations, but you also incur real costs.
So you're going to have to have a methodology
by which you at least cover your expenses. And
perhaps you put in some of your own income from
your quote unquote day job. But at the same time,
how do you actually keep it afloat and running?
Yeah, absolutely. So you're right. There's some
aspects of a 501c3 that are charitable contributions
and there are some that are not. So, for example,
a course fee. So if we're going to do NRA basics
of pistol shooting and students are going to
pay a course fee to come, that is not a charitable
donation to our organization. That's a course
fee. where you guys are in California. What would
a new shooter pay to take NRA basics of pistol
shooting? Most of what we would take is really,
if I'm not going for something like TACCON, which
I'm going to, but that's in Dallas. And that's
maybe a different animal. Most of the trainers
that I follow, you'd probably be into $400 to
$600 for a couple -day course. If you're talking
about an NRA -specific course, I don't know.
The courses that we have to take are periodic
CCW classes, and those are a couple hundred,
and those are biannual. So for us, just through
donations, we're able to get the cost down of...
NRA basics of pistol shooting down to $80 to
$85. That's pretty good. Yeah. And so that includes
your instruction, the mandatory books that the
NRA says we have to buy and give to you. That
includes your range time. It does not include
your ammo, but it does include, if you want,
the use of our student pistols. So if you have
your own pistol, you can bring it. If you want
to rent one at the range that's interesting to
you, you can do that. um or you can use ours
but but there is a cost for um the ammo whether
you bring it or you buy it at the course um doesn't
really matter but um you know we're not providing
the ammo at least for pistol class i'm a person
that believes that like you should have to submit
your completion certificate for basic pistol
basic rifle with your 1099 every year like you
shouldn't get your tax refund and until you prove
that you have basic firearms. Because I can't
think of two things that are more American than
getting your tax refund and civilian firearms.
If it doesn't happen in 2026, I think it's not
going to happen anytime soon. I think you're
reaching into a future that we all hope for,
but probably, at least in California, we're not
going to see that. Maybe in Ohio you have a...
And by the way, listeners, I didn't mention that
Jeff is in Ohio. So if you're in the Ohio area,
obviously we're going to recommend that you train
with him directly. But if not... you know jeff
are there other organizations that are similarly
uh comprised that are nationwide that you i mean
i don't i don't mean one organization nationwide
but are there other locations where businesses
like yours exist so um that's kind of an interesting
one so i go back to the comment i made about
thinking about being a civilian firearms training
organization as a nonprofit you know i got that
idea from somebody else so i know these organizations
do exist um but i think they're a little bit
more difficult to find that like if you google
you know firearm training in my area you're not
going to come up with a list of non -profits
first oh can i double back to something we were
talking about a minute ago i forgot to make my
second point of course you can yeah so course
fees course fees are not charitable donations.
They are course fees. However, we also do community
events. And I think we're going to expand on
that here in a little bit. But our community
events are monthly right now. We have all of
2026 scheduled. And these events are literally
free to attend. There are events for the community.
And we focus on a topic. So we may do like what
we're doing next week, a two hour small group
rifle lesson. So I have a bunch of rifles that
students use in our full day courses. If you
want to learn how to shoot a rifle, just like
you might go to a shooting range to learn how
to shoot anything, we'll be there at the range
and you can join our event at no cost. As you
mentioned, it's on the website. Also, the website
does ask, would you like to make a donation?
And you don't have to. You can participate without
a donation or you could make a donation. Now,
in those cases, those are charitable donations.
And at the end of the year, we will send you
a thank you letter for the total value of any
charitable donations that you made to us, whether
you attended an event or not. That's interesting.
So you're saying that the community events that
are ostensibly a charity, the way they're being
comprised are no cost events but people could
at those events make a donation or through the
website are there other methods by which maybe
sponsorships from various corporations or things
like that because i'm imagining that there might
be other people in the audience who are listening
who operate ranges that are training companies
that maybe are successful and maybe not so much
and they might want to essentially copy your
model Yeah, so we do ask for support from the
community. I don't really want to name names,
but let me start here. We have a board member
whose primary responsibility is fundraising.
So we're actually doing a lot of planning right
now here in January. We're going to roll out
some fun events over the course of the year.
We'd like to do a turkey shoot in the fall. We
may do... like some sort of trap event. These
are brainstorming ideas, by the way. I mean,
none of this is scheduled yet. We may participate
in other events that are not specifically high
-value training, but high -value training may
be part of an event, like have a table or be
a charitable sponsor or something like that for
events. We're thinking about spaghetti dinners,
all kinds of things. And then we do reach out
to companies in the two way space to ask for
donations specific to an event. I don't want
to get too heavy into the things that we've asked
for or received because we've received some things
from some companies that have been very generous
and we do thank them when we get those. But I
don't want to. convey the idea that, well, if
you set up a charity, all these companies are
just going to throw their stuff at you. That's
not true. As we in the podcast industry have
learned, they're not beating your door down.
Well, even if you ask, sometimes they'll say
no. So here's an example. We want to do a holster
draw class. And we don't want to do a live fire
holster draw class. When we do holster draw classes,
which are special events, some of those classes
are dry fire only, and some of those classes
are live fire. We do not take new students into
a live fire holster draw class, right? So there's
some level of, you know, you've participated
with us before, we're familiar with you, you've
taken some of our NRA courses beyond basic pistol
shooting. um like for example personal protection
in the home the course of fire there you you
can't be a new shooter and do that course of
fire so if you've done those things you might
come to our holster draw class um we reached
out to some holster companies um we have you
know uh you know training like blue guns that
that uh you can use to learn holster draw yes
that It's a completely safe way to do holster
draw. So we reached out to some holster companies,
and again, I don't want to name names, and said,
hey, we would love it if you could donate some
of your most basic G17 holsters. Because we want
to teach this class, and we explained it all.
Every single one of them turned us down. Really?
Huh. And I'll tell you what we ended up doing,
which I thought was actually better, is we went
out and bought some, what's that scuba diver
suit material? Neoprene? Neoprene, yeah, sure.
Yeah, yeah. So we went out and bought some neoprene
belly bands. Oh, yeah. And a couple different
sizes. And we decided, you know what, we're going
to use those instead because... People can come
in their joggers or their jeans or their slacks
and button -down shirt from work or whatever,
and they can wrap one of these belly bands around
what they're wearing right now and put one of
our training pistols into the holster of that
belly band. And so instead of getting dedicated
outside -the -waistband holsters, and using a
specific pattern for our training pistols, our
blue guns, now we can train with any size gun.
If we have a blue gun revolver, we can still
use the belly band. That's good. Yeah, we decided
to do that, and you know what? Those didn't cost
very much, and so we do get some cash donations.
Not a lot. We don't have a war chest, I guess,
but to buy a few of those belly bands is no big
deal. We did that. Yeah, I have been fortunate
to receive some extra holsters from law enforcement
friends of mine who no longer use them or they're
switching to a different gun or something. And
surprisingly, on a lot of pistols, a variety
of different manufacturer pistols will fit into
the same holster pretty well. Not all of them
and not every pistol, but I've gotten quite a
few nice... very functional holsters that way.
We have had a few offers for that, and we'll
probably end up with a few of those here soon.
But I think those are a little bit of a challenge
for what we're trying to accomplish with people
who are just learning holster draw. So, for example,
a friend of High Value Training has offered one
of his older Safari Land L3 duty holsters. Oh,
yeah. Which is... Phenomenal. We're not going
to go out and buy one of those. As long as it's
not a Serpa pattern, right? Its retention is
on the light. The tricky part is, do we have
a training pistol pattern with that light that
is going to work functionally? That's really
not the holster that we're going to teach. for
new holster draw. So while we absolutely love
getting those things and we'll use them, right,
that's not our primary customer. Do you try to
avoid the SERPA pattern and other ones like it
that use the index finger to release the gun?
I know that's a lot of ranges, just you're not
using that on our range. I mean, they're very
black and white about that. Yeah. So we're not
teaching drawing through retention, at least
not right now. We're, we're teaching, uh, just
drawing either with the belly bands that we have
or with some of the basic OWB holsters that we
can get our hands on. Is it okay to mention a
product? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean,
well, you know, caveat for the listeners and
I failed to mention this upfront. Okay. So we've
never trained with you. And normally our rules
of engagement are that we have to be familiar
with the product and, or the trainer or the service
or whatever to be. on this show which is kind
of a de facto endorsement uh but since you and
i talked and since your business model is so
different that's that's why you're on the show
i mean heck the name of your organization you
know high value training academy sort of makes
it a natural fit with what we're doing uh but
the same thing here i mean you know you mentioning
something is you endorsing it it's not us endorsing
it so you can mention anybody you want Okay.
So I guess I should mention, as we were thinking
about names for high value training, just leaning
on that idea of high quality student outcomes
is one of the things that led us to the name
that we selected. But the product I want to mention
is from We The People Holsters. They make something
called the Freedom Holster. And it's not the
first holster that you'll see on their website.
You have to look for it. But the reason we like
it for training is because as long as you have
the correct pattern pistol, whether it's an M
&P or a Glock or whatever, the Freedom Holster,
for those that aren't aware, can be converted
into literally thousands of different configurations.
So it is a chunky holster. but it can be left
-handed or right -handed. It can be OWB or IWB.
You can use it with a paddle. You can use it
with belt loops. You can use it with hooks. And
it comes with all of those accessories in the
box. So as a training tool, we really feel like
that's a great value because it's so versatile
for us. So I can have two students, one left
-handed, one right -handed, come to a holster
draw class. where we're using the Freedom Holster
and I can hand it to one of them and they can
use it. And then with a Phillips head screwdriver,
in 90 seconds, I can convert it between left
-handed and right -handed and hand it to the
other student. Now, would we like to just have
lots of those? Of course we would. But just having
the one is really nice. If somebody says, well,
you know, I've never... Drawn from inside the
waistband. Oh, okay. Hang on. Let me pull out
my Phillips screwdriver and I'll switch it from
OWB to IWB. And you can, you know, with our blue
guns or training pistols, you can try it. And
for those people who don't know, that's outside
the waistband and inside the waistband, OWB and
IWB. I know some of our listeners may not be
familiar with that phrase, which is common in
holsters. But anyway, I just want to point that
out. Right, right. Thanks, Ken. No, I appreciate
it. But I think what's not common. a holster
that literally can be converted between the two
and be converted between left -handed and right
-handed and you know how you wear it on your
belt and everything so there's a lot of flexibility
So we do enjoy that product. That's a company
that we hope to get on at some point. We haven't
yet, but there's another one, too, that I'll
just mention. As a fairly generic holster that
has a really unique retention system is Mission
First Tactical. Their Pro Series uses a rod.
and a magnet. So the rod goes down the barrel,
and then the magnet at the end of the rod secures
the weapon. And they have ones that accommodate
weapon -mounted lights. And while they say that
they're, you know, dedicated toward a certain
combination of gun and light, it turns out that
they're a little bit more generic than that in
application. And they, you know, work fantastically
too. I mean, it's not a security retention. you
know, device it, you know, for like law enforcement,
but you know, for everyday user, it's a great
item. Ken, you had something. No, no. I just
say, you know, I know Craig, Craig, you and I
need to work on my host of design sometime, which
we want to talk about here, but. Yeah. Ken has
a unique idea that, that fits a certain segment
of the population that would, that would actually
be kind of cool. And I've seen him use his prototype
and. I can't see that he's wearing anything.
I mean, I'm looking all over him, and I don't
see it. And that was on a Ruger LCR. But that's
another story. Another story, yes. Is that important
in California? So if you're printing or something,
is that a problem? Only if somebody reports you.
I mean, because anybody can report you and say,
you know, he's got a gun. Okay, all right. And
then the cops will... will come and they'll inquire
and if it's just something you know you're printing
because you know you're wearing dip on clothes
like some of the women walk around with these
dip on clothes i call them dip on because they're
so tight you know it's like you you know liquid
painted on oh yeah yeah yeah and that's a bad
thing you got a problem with that Well, maybe.
That's a topic for a different podcast. Yeah,
a different topic. I was going to just say that
each state is a little bit different. When people
ask me, how do I carry? My answer is, well, here
in Ohio, I do something called comfortable carry.
I carry the gun that I'm most comfortable with
and the holster I'm most comfortable with. I
conceal it, but I don't really care if anybody
sees it because we're an open carry state. Oh,
yeah. happens to show a little bit, it's no harm,
no foul, as long as I'm in a place where you're
legally allowed to carry, right? Because we do
have those gun buster signs, you know, in place.
And in California, a three -judge panel on the
Ninth Circuit just said that California's propulsion
against open carry was unconstitutional. Now,
that is being appealed and will be in en banc.
decision ninth circuit yeah yeah before the entire
ninth circuit but it was interesting because
i got a call the other day from phone rang it's
like huh what's that it was the san diego sheriff's
office calling me it's like i wonder what they
would be calling me for right and they were calling
me on behalf of a relative who applied for a
ccw and in in her case i'm the one who's been
helping her along this path and they called me
as the character reference and i'm like cool
kind of like why you doing that because well
now it's required in california that that's a
extra burden on the law enforcement community
to be able to have an interview and i got to
talking to this guy on the side and he he's a
the sheriff's deputy was a big advocate of both
open and concealed carry and you know he's hoping
that it goes through and and i asked him i said
if if open carry is found to be constitutional
in california which I mean, parenthetically,
it is, but against the law, whatever, that's
a separate conversation. Would I still need to
apply for a CCW? Because, yeah, the way it would
be now, you'd have to still have a CCW. Yeah,
the law that they just overturned, California
had a law that basically said, oh, yeah, we allow
open carry, but only if your county, and there
are 58 counties in the state of California, only
if your county has less than 200 ,000 people
into it that live in the county. And of the 58
counties, I think it's like two or three of the
very rural counties have that. And then, of course,
the judges on the panel of the Ninth Circuit
said, okay, so basically 95 plus percent of the
population in California is. cannot open carry
because they live in a county that, number one,
has more than 200 ,000 people. And then they
said, okay, of the three, say, three counties
that are remaining, how many open carry licenses
have ever been granted? And there have been none,
zero, zip. There have been no open carry licenses
issued in the county. Plus, even if one was issued
in that county, it's only valid in that county.
The minute you'd step into a different county
over the line to get a cheeseburger at the local
whatever, you'd be in violation. Reciprocity?
Nah. Nah. Not even within the state. I don't
understand the big deal around open carry because
Ohio has always been open carry, and you don't
see people walking around with guns visible on
their person. It's a culture thing where if you...
Because you've had it and people know you've
had it, people are acclimated to the idea that
it's there. This is a little bit analogous to,
for example, if you take a country that is not
used to having freedom, and then all of a sudden
you overthrow the dictator, recent example, and
they are not familiar with democratic processes
and representative republics and how they operate.
They struggle. And the same thing can happen
in an open carry. Suddenly you go open carry.
You know how many man with a gun calls there's
going to be? And then you're like, okay, crap,
I've got to wait around for the cops to show
up. Yeah, okay, I'm just exercising my constitutional
right. Thanks, have a nice day. And along those
lines, there's the Babylon Bee, which produces
these videos. Some of them are very humorous.
Well, satirical as hell. Satirical, yeah, satirical.
The Babylon Bee has a series of videos. of a
California couple who moves to Texas. And the
neighbor comes by and is like, how you doing?
And he's trying to introduce himself. And he's
open carrying a .45 1911 on his hip. And as soon
as the wife sees it, she freaks out and whips
out her cell phone and starts videoing, don't
shoot me and all this stuff. And he's like...
No, this is normal here. This is Texas. I saw
the whole thing. It's hilarious. It is hilarious.
I recommend those who are listening to us who
haven't seen it, go look up Babylon B, Californians
moved to Texas. What skills do you teach, Jeff?
And what are... like what do you teach now it
sounds like some of it's you know relatively
basic in terms of at least the draw classes uh
and what are you kind of developing into teaching
and maybe differentiate for us which of those
will be you know no cost to the public ones and
which one will be for cost sure um so we teach
a variety of different skills so primarily we're
teaching pistol and rifle skills and it's primarily
uh basic skills um as far as like you know what
uh certifications do i have from the nra i'm
certified to teach a pistol rifle personal protection
in the home which is more of an intermediate
class and i'm also a chief range safety officer
so i can teach rso so there's a couple reasons
for having that specific mix i also volunteer
with boy scouts of america Last summer, I spent
an entire week on their rifle range at scout
camp at summer camp, and they need NRA rifle
instructors and RSOs and chief RSOs involved
in scouting because that's who scouts uses to
run their ranges. Scouts is very close with the
NRA. So that mix works both from a high value
training perspective and a personal volunteering
perspective. What you would get from a full day
course, like let's say basics of pistol shooting,
basics of rifle shooting, is we're going to leverage
the NRA curriculum for those courses. The NRA
does an excellent job putting together a curriculum
that is nationally recognized, that covers the
things that need to be covered, that's been vetted
by so many experts in the industry. and so it's
it's a good one to leverage the materials associated
with it like the books are really good and they
even have uh a survey that you can fill out at
the end for example um this is the appendix d
for basics of pistol shooting you can ask your
students to fill out a survey so you can get
feedback on how you're doing and you can um you
know if i i'm a data nerd myself so i actually
record all my survey scores and look for areas
of improvement. And then again, we're really
all about the student outcomes. So in my mind,
I'm always thinking, how do, there's really two
kinds of training in my mind. There's the skills
training. So there's the, how do I train to have
a skill, right? So, you know, am I the best shooter
in the room? I have no idea, right? But I have
those basic skills that I've learned through
courses that I've taken. and continue to take.
And then there's training to teach, which is
a completely different skill set, right? What
are the things that you need to absorb from other
instructors? What are some of the nuances that
you notice as your class is going on during the
day? What types of questions are people asking
you? Where do you get stuck on topics to improve
the learning? So, for example, one of the things
that we did to improve learning when teaching
grip i was finding that teaching new shooters
how to properly grip a pistol was taking a little
while because everybody's hands are a different
size and you know you're not doing one -on -one
instruction and so you're taking them through
the courseware and the the curriculum but there's
a few different ways that you can teach these
skills you can show some powerpoint slides which
i think is probably midway helpful, at least
you're seeing something. You can demonstrate
it yourself, which is pretty good. You can tell
people how to do it, which is probably the least
effective way to do it. Or you can come up with
a training aid that helps people just do it.
And so I'm all about the training aid. So here's
just like one example. I developed this little
3D printed gizmo that can screw on to the rail
of a training pistol, blue gun. so when you're
teaching grip and you put the shooting hand on
the gun three fingers on the grip a trigger finger
along the frame or the rail um your support hand
four fingers over three right where do you put
your thumb right on the thing that is 3d printed
and that just puts your thumb in the right place
you can take your hand off put your hand on your
thumb always goes back to the right place if
you put it on that thing right so we've turned
teaching grip from a more difficult thing to
explain to students really picking up on it very
quickly do you sell those is that is that a an
item that you've actually put on the market i
i'd love to i i wish i wish i was that good of
a businessman but i mean it's literally like
screwed on and off with an allen key i mean people
can't this is an audio show so i'm going to describe
what what you've got here what it is is essentially
it's a rail mounted thumb rest uh for your offhand
And that is assuming maybe the left -handed version.
Yeah. The version we're looking at is the right
-handed version. And I have left -handed version.
All you'd have to do to make that, you know,
even better quote unquote would be add another
pick rail on the bottom of it. And then you could
keep your accessories on there too. And, and
that would be something you could absolutely
sell. Yeah. So, I mean, just, you're just on
the pistol properly every time. So. I also know
what I'm doing, but I mean, I'm watching the
success of my students with that. When we're
teaching ammunition, so by the benefits of owning
brass buyers and being a reloader, I have a lot
of different brass. And so I worked with somebody
who created a stand for me. Very good. And I
took all these different pieces of brass and
I mounted it to it and I had them labeled. And
again, I know the audience isn't going to see
what I'm talking about, but basically, you know,
somebody in class says, well, what's the difference
between 38 Special and 357? Well, they're right
next to each other right here. Let's have that
conversation. What's that huge thing on top?
Why would I ever want to own one of those? Which
of these costs the least amount of money per
shot? We can have that conversation. We can also
talk about rimfire versus centerfire. Just, you
know, again, developing training aids that make
the class that much better for the students so
they have a really good outcome. My favorite
ones, again, sticking with ammo, and I did not
create this. I found this and had somebody. make
these for me but when you're talking about ammunition
and you're talking about well what are the components
of a cartridge and what is the firing sequence
yeah using some models that somebody can take
apart and put back together you know it's a 3d
printed model and when you're talking about well
the you know the firing pin strikes the primer
the what well it's this little thing down here
it strikes you know it strikes the this little
circle on the end of the cartridge well what's
what's a primer look like well you know here's
a giant one you know i can hand it to you and
you can see what a primer looks like I'd be interested
in buying those. I would be interested in buying
those if you guys actually sell them or you knew
the locations of those because those are great
training aids. There's actually those I got from
a seller on Etsy. If you just go on Etsy and
look up that as a training aid. I'll order it
tonight. Thank you. I like them. So another exercise
we do, I really like this one. And again, this
is for. new shooters, beginning shooters. We're
talking about ammunition and we're talking about
how do you select the correct ammunition for
your gun? And the answer is you check the gun
either on the barrel or the slide. So it'd be
the barrel if it's, for example, an M &P. If
it's a Glock, it'll be on the slide. You look
at the head stamp of the cartridge. You look
at the box. And then, of course, you can also
look in your owner's manual. So one of the things
I've done is collected a whole bunch of ammo
box is just the cardboard sleeve, and I've laminated
them. And I have a huge stack of these. They
come in lots of different calibers. And as a
part of the course, and this is above and beyond
the curriculum that we're using, but I will hand
a stack of these to each student, and I'll hand
them a handful of dummy cartridges, and I'll
hand them some empty magazines. And I will tell
them, okay, I need you to organize the calibers.
I need you to then load them into the correct
magazine and put the magazine down on top of
the correct laminated box. Do people get that
wrong? Do they have struggle with that? Well,
what they really struggle with is, and I wouldn't
say struggle. What they find most difficult is
where the heck on the box does it say what the
caliber is? These boxes. might look very identical
one of these might be 40 versus 45 you have the
box right the whole point of the exercise is
to read the box read the cartridge and then have
a magazine there that you can load and some students
um i would say the the most uh the most uh one
i don't know how to describe it the one they
get the wrong the most is they'll mix up 380
and nine millimeter they'll put the the 380 dummy
cartridges in the nine millimeter magazine, which
I think is a completely legitimate thing for
a new shooter to accidentally do. I would think
it'd be 380 and 38 special, but I can, you know,
obviously one's rimmed a lot longer and so on
and so forth, but because the numbers are the
same in the, you know, the. zero on the end of
the 30 point 38 doesn't matter but it does yeah
that that would be where i would think the errors
would be oh no i mean loading the magazine i
mean they oh you mean actually loading okay yeah
so they're actually loading dummy cartridges
into a magazine and then putting that on top
of the the box and so they're matching everything
up the the ammo the magazine and and the uh writing
on the box and so you know i'll get some three
eighties loaded into a nine millimeter magazine.
But again, I mean, totally understandable. Sure.
I have a two part question here. So it's kind
of a positive and a negative. And if there's
positives, you can mention names. And if there's
negatives, I would request that you don't, but
I'm assuming that you still. you know also train
yourself and you take classes and and you know
and maybe some of your ideas on training aids
and things have been inspired by either positives
or or deficiencies that you've seen in other
classes and if you want to mention who you think
other good trainers are you can go ahead and
do that but if you also experience what at least
in the Navy, we would refer to as negative training.
And negative training would be things that run
counter to doctrine or things that run counter
to best practices. And perhaps you have an example
or two of that. Yeah, sure. Actually, fun story.
Wasn't fun live in person, but it turns out to
be a fun story because I tell it to almost all
my students who come in for pistol class. It's
not uncommon that retired veterans will take
my class. um either to learn a new skill or just
to take a class or you know that i mean we've
had every branch of the military i've had a retired
idf um you know these people you know tell us
they have great stories during lunch uh retired
older guy a retired army uh i don't remember
what his uh job was in the army he had told me
about it but anyway when we're we were differentiating
uh grip for semi -auto versus revolver He immediately
started lecturing me on the teacup grip position
for a revolver. And in the moment, I wasn't expecting
somebody to start actually arguing with me that
I'm teaching grip incorrectly. You mean he was
an advocate of teacup? His grandpa taught him
teacup and his dad shot teacup. And that's just
how he learned how to shoot a revolver. I'm pretty
good at dancing in these scenarios. So I know
how to listen to a customer and hear them out
and formulate some type of feedback. So I think
that meets your criteria for a negative training
example. The path I went down was, if you're
already familiar with that, and you're accurate
with that, and you feel like you'll be successful
on the range today with that, by all means. Please
do it that way. I'm not here to change your beliefs
in this. What I would suggest to you is that
that's a very difficult unsupported position
because you're really relying on your shooting
hand to also be the support. The shooting hand
has to do two things. It has to hold the gun
and it has to operate the trigger. So it can't
do 100 % of the holding and it also can't do
100 % of the operating the trigger. It has to
do a combination of both. And if you're not gripping
the gun and what would be more of a standard
two handed grip, you're selling yourself short.
But, you know, we'll see what happens when we
get out on the range. Right. If you're comfortable
that way, then do it that way. Well, for a second
shot follow up, it's terrible. I mean, for one
shot, it might be fine. But for a second shot
follow ups, that's not a good. Well, and and
for a basic pistol class like NRA basics of pistol
shooting follow up shot. Yes, through fundamentals
and follow through and everything, you should
be in a good position to do a follow up shot.
But we're not doing self -defense shooting. We're
not doing shot timer, par time or anything in
that course. It's a basics course. So, you know,
being able to readjust your position, your hand
position. and re -aim and get back on target
is totally legitimate in that class. If people
don't know what a teacup hold is, I would recommend
that you look up any police shows from like the
late 60s all the way through perhaps the early
80s and in the 70s and things like that. You
see these. examples of you know holding the basically
cupping the bottom of your support or you're
cupping your support hand in order to hold your
primary hand which doesn't do much at all for
recoil or second shot recovery so it's fallen
out of favor by a long long long time so typically
when we get out on the range anybody who has
preconceived ideas of you know something that
we're not teaching i ask them to show it to me
because i love learning and i love learning like
i mentioned from my own skill set but also learning
to teach and so if there's something that i can
learn from a student then i want to and because
the students are the ones that they're going
to have the best feedback some students come
to class and they're just a sponge they want
to absorb everything but some students come to
class uh last class last uh basics of pistol
shooting that i taught which was in early january
one of the people that came to the course i've
never met him before but he's a competitive shooter
and the reason he was taking the course is that
he's actually going through the process of becoming
an nra instructor so he needed to get the prerequisite
out of the way he was a phenomenal shooter phenomenal
shooter And I could tell that when we were going
through exercises in the classroom and being
a basics course, he was nodding off. He wasn't
falling asleep, but he already knew what he needed
to do. And he proved that when we got out on
the range, in five minutes, he knocked out all
four levels of the NRA targets. He was shooting
instructor level distance at an incredibly tight
group. You know, within like the first five,
10 minutes of being out on the range. So now
I'm asking him questions like, OK, how do you
do that that well? And see if I can pick some
things up from him. Oh, there's one other training
aid I should mention. And again, a lot of these
things have been self -inspired. The 3D printed
ammo, again, is something I bought from somebody
on Etsy. But one of the topics in the NRA basics
of pistol shooting. when we're talking about
fundamentals is arc of movement it's that natural
movement that you have in your arms that you
can't avoid right if somebody said to you hold
your arm out perfectly straight in front of you
and don't move it at all it's physically impossible
it's going to wiggle a little bit right and arc
of movement definitely affects shot placement
so to help students in the classroom understand
arc of movement a little bit better We've bought
some of those inexpensive, they're like thin
picatinny rail lasers that you can just mount
underneath any semi -automatic pistol. And what
we'll do in the classroom is I'll snap a few
of those onto the training pistols and have students
stand 10, 15 feet away from one of our safe zone
targets in the classroom and try and hold the
laser. on the NRA logo. And so that way they
can see, okay, that's your arc of movement. When
we get out on the range, expect that to be the
best you can do today as far as arc of movement.
So if you're not knocking out the X directly
in the center of the bullseye, part of it is
just how your body's built, how God made you.
And the way you work around that is practice.
The more you come to the range, the more you'll
be able to work your arc of movement out of your
end results. But for today, you should just know
that you're that way. I was going to say, what's
a more expensive way to do that, guys? But it's
also very objective. Ken, you know the answer
to this, right? The Mantis Titan X? And the X10
Elite attachment to your regular gun. That's
true. We are evaluating and we'll be putting
a show on probably soon about the Mantis Titan
X, which is basically a Glock 17 Gen 4 or 5,
probably. Now they're up to X and 6 and whatever
else. But it's basically a full -size Glock with
the built -in Mantis motion sensor, the highly
sensitive motion sensor, and a laser and a decent
trigger and a removable weighted... Magazine.
So you can do magazine reload. timings and so
forth. And the software, the Mantis X or the
Mantis software is phenomenal. I'm still exploring
the myriad of options and games and training
scenarios from holster draws and all sorts of
things. And they keep adding to it. No, no, they
keep adding to it. I keep going, I haven't tried
this one yet. And I'm having a great time with
it. And I'm going to be introducing that to some
of the people in the shooting socials and the...
The Guns and Moses training as well. I'm sorry.
It occurs to me too that with the constant on
laser that you're talking about, Jeff, that you
could also use that for teaching people not to
flag others. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.
That's a really good point. If that arc of movement,
I mean, in the totality, let's say from going
from the holster to presentation or just carrying
the thing around is sweeping through your students,
you can call them on that. Oh, so I wanted to
touch on the other type of training that we do.
So the other thing we do is community events.
And this is where we get into the charity aspect
of our training. So once a month, we have a two
-hour community event at a local range. Now,
I'm fairly blessed here where I live that there
are some ranges that actually have, these are
indoor ranges. that have two ranges in their
facility one that is sort of the general use
you walk in pay your money and you get to go
out on the range and then they'll have what i
like to refer to as more of like the private
range or the training range it's a separate range
either in a different part of the building or
walled off next door to the general use range
where we can bring in students and um we have
uh or they have good programs for NRA, USCCA,
and other certified instructors to rent those
facilities at an upfront known cost. So there's
a couple ranges around here. Obviously, I have
instructor insurance. I have COIs on file with
multiple ranges near where I live. So if one's
busy, I can use a different one. But we still
get that private range time experience indoors.
where you know we can work with the students
and so for our community events we're using those
private ranges um to hold a community event now
those ranges are much smaller so the typically
like five lanes maybe six lanes and when i say
smaller i'm talking about lanes uh one of them
in particular is five lanes but is actually 90
feet long and very well lit and has its own air
system and everything it's really nice But we'll
use those so we can have our own activity in
that room. Now, of course, we're on camera. The
RSOs at the range, of course, are watching us
and this and that, right? But we do have our
own area. People can come to those events either
at no cost or for a donation. And what we're
doing is essentially creating a community event
that simulates what would it be like if you just
went to the range? Right. I'm going to the range.
I've never shot a lever action rifle before.
How do I do that? Come to one of our community.
Come to the one next week. You want to shoot
a lever action. We've got a Henry student rifle
for you. Right. Or I've never shot. I know this
isn't a topic for every state, but I've never
shot an SBR. Oh, well, just come to our community
event. We have an SBR and nine millimeter. You're
going to love it. Right. So. you know what you
know i i need to work on a uh particular skill
so what we do is we'll break down our our participants
into what skills they're trying to work on if
they're looking to work on marksmanship skills
then we just work on the nra civilian marksmanship
program book that's the book you would get if
you took any nra course And we'll just do the
drills in that book. And the good news with those
drills is not only do they help you with your
fundamentals, but they are not quick. And a lot
of them you have to repeat many times. Sometimes
one of those drills is, okay, you have to do
this 10, you have to, you know, weak hand, five
shots, six inch group. repeat 10 times, something
like that, right? So it does take up some time.
And then other people may want to work on a self
-defense skill. Well, those are a little bit
trickier to work on in a stall because you're
behind the stall and, you know, you've got your
little table there. But there are some skills
that we can work on that are in the course of
fire for NRA basic personal protection in the
home. has a few drills that you can work on from
behind a stall. And there's a few that are my
favorite because it's a good teaching moment
for students with some of these for them to see,
you know, am I just a good stationary shooter?
Or, you know, what is the reality of my skill
set if I have to move my arm or, you know, come
up from low ready or some, you know, just introducing
a little bit of movement and then check to see
just how good they are with that just smidge
of extra movement in their hand so we'll work
on self -defense skills that way as well um something
and literally we'll do all these things so somebody
says hey i just got this uh brand new whatever
uh micro compact something and i put a red dot
on it and it's installed but it's not zeroed
great we have a bench rest come and we'll work
on zeroing your red dot and we'll we'll spend
you know whatever time you need there just doing
that and will it be 100 by the end of it no but
it'll be 85 90 um so we we can do that we won't
install i should give a disclaimer we're not
gunsmithing we're definitely not taking pistols
apart on the range if you come to the range with
your pistol a brand new red dot installed on
it it's installed properly and you say i want
to zero it we will absolutely help you with that
if you come to the range with your pistol and
your brand new red red dot in the original manufacturer's
box and say i need this thing installed so i
can zero it the answer is you need to have to
already have it installed on the range we're
not taking our eyes off the firing line to install
red dots um and uh we're you know while i'm i'm
going to say we're not gunsmiths obviously installing
a red dot does not require a great deal of skill
but we're not here to work on your no that's
a waste of time i mean you're wasting other people's
time because you're not doing you're doing probably
group classes and and spending your time doing
that is not what other people came to experience
we have a very very very high I don't know what
you'd call it, reoccurring or re -attendance.
The people that come to our community events
tend to come back. So where you go to a full
-day course, you go to that course, and then
the course is over. So maybe you come to the
next course. But our community events, we truly
are building some community around those events.
For those repeat customers, are they coming back?
Well, okay, it's a good experience, and maybe
it didn't cost them much, maybe it cost them
nothing. I assume that part of this is maybe
by metrics that you keep, because you said you're
a data person, that they are having their progress
tracked, and maybe there's incentives for improvement
or something like that, accessibility to better
classes. Perhaps you're helping them with their
CCW class, which may have different requirements
in your state, and perhaps your CCW in Ohio extends
to other states. maybe getting the word out to
attract new students and retain the ones you've
got? So we have a lot of word of mouth and we
do some advertising on Facebook, but to be honest,
we need to do a better job of that. We're not,
I mean, so High Value Training Academy has been
around since 2023, but as far as really having
the bandwidth and some donations to be able to
engage with the community. in a meaningful way
that's really that really started about four
or five months ago for us oh really new so well
we've been teaching classes i've been teaching
classes under the high value training academy
badge for years and i've been doing very small
group community events for free and or for donations
for years. But as far as really getting the word
out in a big way and making ourselves known to
the community and actively, like I mentioned,
we have a board member who's focused on donations
and fundraising. You know, that's probably the
last four or five months that we're really picking
up steam. And it all has to do with, like you
mentioned before, you know, there are real costs
to doing these things. And so There's the things
you can do at the beginning, like with any organization
with the limited funds that you have. And as
funds become more available, then you can do
more things like how do we afford to do a community
event for two hours where we're renting a private
range for our own event for two hours for students
who are going to register and come and their
instruction, their range time and their targets
are included. They can use our pistols. For some
of these people, unless they choose to make a
donation, their only true out -of -pocket cost
is ammunition. So how do we do that? Well, we
had to raise funds to be able to schedule all
of 2026 to do that. But we also extend some of
our donations to our full -day classes. So I
mentioned before, if you register for a class,
take a class, that's not a... charitable contribution
that that's a course that's a you know fee right
but we keep our course fees insanely low so nra
basics of pistol shooting which if taught properly
may meet the ohio revised code for applying for
a ccw permit in ohio we will use some of our
funds to get the cost of that class down to about
80 to 85 dollars per student Our basics of rifle
shooting, we treat it a little bit differently
because rifle shooting extends to youth. If you
look at scouting programs, youth rifle clubs,
when you're talking pistols and handguns and
self -defense, you're not teaching youth. So
what we'll do for basics of rifle shooting is
we keep our course consistently priced at $125
per student. However, what we use our funds for
is... any parent who wants to bring their child
and the age range for that is what are the range
rules so if the youth child teenager is of an
age that the range will allow them to be on range
with a parent who signs the range waiver then
we'll have them in class. My only criteria for
classes, will they sit through class? But as
far as are they allowed on the range, that is
a range rule and a range policy associated with
the range waiver. So we will do, your youth student
is 100 % free of charge with paid attending parents.
So you cannot drop your kids off with us and
have them take free rifle classes. Right. But
if you want to take our class and you want to
bring your 14 -year -old son, daughter to class,
they're 100 % free. And when I say free, I mean
we are covering their books. Obviously, they're
range time. They can use all of our student rifles.
And we will give each one of those students a
box of 50 .22LRs to use with our student rifles.
So the youth are 100 % free with paid attending
parents. i've had people ask me what if i want
to bring two of my kids what if i want to bring
my uh my kid and my my niece or my nephew yeah
please just just bring them okay paid attending
parent as long as they can sit through class
so if after five minutes they need to go play
games on their iphone they're not a good candidate
but if they can sit through a full day class
and you feel like they'll be okay out on the
range then yeah i mean just just bring them we're
not trying to to build limits here. We're trying
to provide firearm safety education to the community.
So that's one way that we extend our charitableness,
I guess, to some of the full -day classes. And
then we also get requests from religious groups,
churches and synagogues. I've had college fraternities
hit me up. What can we do for them on a limited
budget? And they showed up sober? They better
show up sober. i was in one so like you know
humor in alcohol and firearms do not mix yeah
yeah i never recommended that we went to a range
after a party or something like that or or as
an initiation event either that would be maybe
we get you probably in trouble sure yeah well
it will definitely get you in trouble here in
ohio it's a zero tolerance policy yeah so what
so why would Someone, it sounds like you've already
kind of gone over it by virtue of the creativity
you've got and things like that in your training
aids and how you make the experience better.
But why shouldn't, I mean, if this is a no -cost
class, but it still has the value of a paid class.
Okay, if I'm teaching, I have a sister -in -law
who's interested in learning to shoot. Why not
just go with me to the range? Why not just go
with her friend who used to be a cop? why not
just go with a relative who used to be in the
military what's the benefit of using a professional
training organization like yours sure well if
you're thinking about i just want to try this
i don't know that i want to go to a full -day
class but in my head i've been thinking about
going to the range i think unfortunately it's
something that people don't talk enough about
so like if you're 16 and you go to your parents
and you say hey mom dad I want to go do something
dangerous today. I want to learn how to drive
a car, but I'm committed to learning how to do
it, earning my license, and I will be a safe
driver. I'll stay in my lane. I won't speed.
I will use my turn signals, right? And we practice
that every day. So there's nothing wrong with
saying, I want to go do this dangerous thing,
driving a car. If you said, well, hey, mom, dad,
I want to go skydiving. One parent might say,
oh, wow, that's awesome. And the other parent's
going to say, what are you crazy? You could injure
yourself. But when it comes to people thinking
about maybe going to the range for the first
time, there's a lot of people that just simply
don't articulate that because maybe their family,
their social circle doesn't have the knowledge
and expertise or maybe their family or social
circle. It's just not a topic. Like if you bring
it up, you might face some ridicule for just
mentioning it. So I look at our community events
as a way for people, especially new shooters,
to have this experience in a way in which they
don't even really have to spend a lot of money
to do it. Because if you think about what it
costs just to go to the range, let's say I'm
a new shooter. I've never done this before and
I want to go to the range for the first time.
i'm paying to rent the stall i'm renting a pistol
i'm buying a box of ammo and maybe paying for
somebody to come out on the range with me to
show me how the heck to do this because i've
never done it before and i've heard that it's
dangerous you know i've seen enough movies and
tv shows so we're trying to take all of that
off the table and and we want to get those people
when i say we have very high retention rate re
reoccurring students at our community events
they are bringing their family members. They're
bringing the aunt who was in town for holidays.
They're, you know, their brother who shot guns
once six years ago, but hasn't done it in a while.
They're bringing that person. And so what I would
say is, you know, why people would want to come
to us is, one, again, we're very outcome focused.
The most important thing to me, and I say it
to students, is education, empowerment, and fun.
So you are objectively tracking progress and
letting people see that feedback, like how they
did better, or you have some way to maybe encourage
them by virtue of improved skills? Yeah, so students
who come to the community events who want to
focus on marksmanship, we're using the NRA Civilian
Marksmanship Guide for drills. And on the NRA's
website, you can download a tracker. So I downloaded
that tracker, I've converted it to an excel spreadsheet
which it's it's a very basic spreadsheet and
what i'll do for students is they're going through
the marksmanship program i will track their progress
for them so they don't have to do that now they're
welcome to do that on their own but i'll i'll
track that for them as well so when they earn
a certain um a certain level um they may want
to go into the nra website and buy the patch
and the pin associated with that right um I believe
it's only distinguished marksmen that requires
actually having an NRA instructor validate your
results. The other ones are self -paced. So I
have one student that comes to work on marksmanship
skills at our community events. And then she
also works on her marksmanship skills on her
own. And then when she comes back to one of our
community events once a month, she's already
made other progress, right? we kind of manage
progress that way um i don't know how we would
do this like you know how we would scale that
long term right because it is done manually today
but i mean we are open to any ideas on on how
to to better track progress when it comes to
self -defense skills we're not really tracking
progress what we're doing is we're We're giving
people a little bit of an extra stressor. Like
I mentioned, like moving your hands, like coming
up from a low ready position or something like
that. And we're just working on shot placement
for some of those skills and being accountable
to your fundamentals. When we're talking about
self -defense, I always say being accountable
to your fundamentals because where your shots
go matters a lot, right? And so we're really
just pushing the fundamentals. We're not really
writing down progress. So are you then deciding
on behalf of the students, and as an instructor,
I'm saying you are qualified to make this decision,
but are you deciding on their behalf what they
need to learn, or are you getting feedback that's
saying, this is what I want to learn, and then
trying to accommodate what the student's actual
voiced interest is? Yeah, we ask them ahead of
time, do you want to work on marksmanship or
self -defense? We'll give them some drills. If
it's marksmanship, we use the book, like I mentioned.
So it's very well -documented, detailed progress
that you need to make. If they say they want
to work on self -defense, we would start with
very basic drills that, again, is just a little
bit more movement than just stationary isosceles
standing position shooting. See how they do and
then work on fundamentals to refine that. And
then just leverage the course of fire from courses
like personal protection in the home, personal
protection outside the home. Borrow what we can
from those courses of fire to practice at the
indoor range. We can't do them all at the indoor
range, but some of them we can do safely and
within the guidelines of how the range operates.
The thing I want to close with for high value
training is in the next three to five years,
we're looking to grow and be much bigger. We
have aspirations of having our own training facility.
We're kind of imagining a facility that maybe
other instructors would also want to use that,
you know, maybe it's not a public range. Maybe
it's a dedicated training facility where. Law
enforcement could borrow it and other NRA, USCCA
instructors could come in and use it for their
courses as well. We definitely are thinking about
could we put a range in it? Can we have our own
range and have more control of the types of training
that we can do by having control of our own range?
And then how do we extend this to outdoors, leveraging
the vast number of outdoor ranges that we have
for sure here in the area? So we have a lot of
ideas and we are anxious to grow and anxious
to get in front of as many students as possible.
Well, are you anxious to grow in the context
of exporting this to other states and maybe perhaps,
I'm not saying literally franchise or license
the model, but something along those lines that
would allow this type of opportunity to exist
in other places? I'm probably least astute of
understanding about charity organizations is
how to build a war chest of funds that allow
you to expand that way. It's different than a
for -profit business where you're thinking, okay,
I'm going to open my doors. I'm going to sell
a thing, product or service, that's going to
generate profit for me. And then I'm going to
have a break -even period where I'm going to
run this thing. temporarily at a loss until we
can break even and so we can start being cash
flow positive and all of that. You know, when
we look at a training organization, I would love
to be able to do that. I would love to meet like
minded people who feel like that there is a lot
of value in not just the training, but the student
outcomes and in a way in which we're really targeting
communities where people, quite frankly, might
not be able to afford training. And that's actually
in our mission statement. If you're legally allowed
to own a firearm, we want to train regardless
of your ability to pay full price for a class.
So if that is exportable somehow, I would love
to learn how to export it. And I'd love to have
the donations and contributions to be able to
do that. So word to our listeners, if there's
anybody out there who can help along with this,
I think. i should look over at my wife who's
sitting across the desk at me who is a cpa whether
or not labor that is donated to a non -profit
organization is something that's deductible oh
she's shaking her head no cash basis taxpayer
nope can't do that but at least anything monetarily
that they do or you know at least they'll be
doing the right thing for the community right
right oh you know that i guess i should have
mentioned as well i'm on the board i'm the founder
of high value training but i'm also a board member
As a board member, I don't financially benefit
at all from high -value training. I have taken
no money home from this organization. It all
gets put back into what else can we do for the
community. At some point, maybe I won't be a
board member. Maybe I could be a paid instructor
or something like that. But right now, I am donating.
This is my cause. I am donating my time to this
cause. planetary size benefits I get from it
is truly all in the student outcomes. And you
see, guys, that's why we wanted Jeff on the show
having, you know, again, not directly experienced
his training because of the factor of distance
being in Southern California. I don't get to
Ohio very often, but at the same time, this is
a unique opportunity to talk to someone who is,
I'm not disparaging. people who do things for
profit. I mean, obviously. No, not at all. But
this is really a unique opportunity to talk to
someone who's doing this because it's the right
thing to do and not with a business angle. But
again, hey, we're all capitalists here, so we
don't disparage that. Ken, any final comments
for Jeff as we close out? No, nothing in particular.
Really enjoyed the afternoon and talking to you.
So this was great. Exactly. All right.