The problem is if you're eating away at base
material, hey, it's actually lighter than before.
That's a great cleaning job, right? But you just
got to use nitric acid and it'll decrease in
weight. So it's, you know, when somebody pays
900 bucks for a suppressor, you got to be very
careful. Welcome to episode 23 of the Frugal
Firearms podcast, the Gundy -nominated for best
podcast of the year, podcast that's here to help
you save money and, in this case, save your stuff,
like save your equipment from failure and from
not working correctly because you didn't take
care of it. And part of that goes to cleaning
your gear, keeping it in top order, keeping it
lubricated. and keeping it ready for you when
the moment of need arrives. So today we're bringing
on the CEO of Otis and Shooter's Choice, and
if you didn't know, they're actually the same
parent company, Bill Kleftis. Bill, welcome to
the show, and how are you today, sir? Well, Craig,
thanks for asking, and I'm just glad to be part
of today's podcast. So I've listened to you a
couple other times, Bill, on other... Not quite
as good podcast as ours, because ours is the
best, of course. But I have heard you talk about
the background of the company. And in fact, something
I don't even know is, like, where does, I don't
see Otis's, I thought maybe it was an acronym
for something, and I never saw it in the originator's
name, so I'm not really sure where that came
from. But maybe give us a little bit of your
background, the company's background, and then
how you became associated with it. Well, no,
great. Great question. So I've been around for
a number of years. I've been in three, four,
three primary industries before coming into the
firearms industry. I was in HVAC equipment, medical
device, medical devices and as well as. the rail
industry working for a multinational. So I've
been in a lot of different companies, and I've
known the Williams family for some time, and
it was a great opportunity that when this opportunity
came up, the founder, Doreen Williams, and her
dad kind of had discussion, and I started here
four years ago on April of 22. uh regarding the
history of otis so we have been around for 40
years this is our 40th year that we're celebrating
and it started back um in a hunting trip when
doreen was 16 years old hunting with her dad
and she accidentally had buried the muzzle of
her of her rifle during a hunting trip into into
the ground and that was the end of the hunt they
had to go back home And she was rummaging through
her grandfather's World War II stuff and found
a chain and a weight that was used to push out
squib loads back in the day, back in World War
II. And she used it. And next thing you know,
her dad, her dad was a tool and die maker. said
hey it would be great if we kind of had something
that we could clean the gun out in the field
and not have to come back in from a hunt so she
got an empty shoe polish tin along with the arrangement
that she had made up and that was the start of
a cleaning company back on a kitchen table and
then migrated to the garage and Next thing you
know, here we are 40 years later with a facility
employing people from the local area. So wonderful
story. Regarding the name Otis, that's actually
her dad's middle name. So his middle name is
Otis. So Jerry Otis Williams. And it was a tribute.
to her dad uh when they started the company to
uh to name it after his middle did he go by otis
was that like what people called him because
some people do that no i think i actually i think
uh the uh otis is uh it's been in the family
uh legacy um i think there may have been others
with the middle name or the beginning name otis
but uh clearly she wanted it to be uh a tribute
to her dad and uh hence the uh The name of our
company is Otis Technology. So you are also,
you're a very busy man. And again, thanks for
taking the time to come talk to our audience.
You're the CEO of some other companies. Is that
true? Well, I have my own training organization,
Spartan Training Industries. Oh, I didn't know
that was yours. Yeah, I've done that in the local
area now for about 12 years in multiple counties
in northern New York and have trained quite a
few people, primarily pistols. I am a competitive
pistol shooter, a three gunner as well. So, you
know, I've been around firearms all my life,
but this was a way of being able to to give back.
And as you can imagine, here in New York, things
are pretty tough when it comes to firearms ownership.
I was born in New York. I was born in New York,
and I'm an escapee from there. So, yeah, just
north of White Plains, New York is where I grew
up. I think it's a hold my beer kind of situation
here, Bill. I mean, we are in California, so
I don't know if we want to compare notes on who
suffers more. I know a story or a little bit
about a story that you had told one of the other,
like I said, excellent yet inferior to us podcasts
about your experience in New York training. And
I think it has to do with learning the lessons
of de -escalation, suicide prevention, things
like that, and how that's a, I mean, I know this
isn't on the topic of gun cleaning, and we're
going to get to that. But I think that's an important
message that maybe you want a minute or two to
talk about. I appreciate that because, quite
frankly, to me, those three things are, I believe,
are probably more important than the actual firearm
training that goes on. Back in 2022, when SCOTUS
had their famous decision. Things got actually
worse for New York State residents where instead
of a four hour class, it's now a 16 hour classroom
along with a two hour live fire requirement.
But what three things that they mandated? Actually,
there was a number of things that they've mandated
along with content time. was de -escalation techniques,
situational awareness, and suicide prevention.
And I dig into those areas more so than all the
other kind of standard stuff. Because at the
end of the day, the firearm is of last resort,
right? Nothing good happens at two o 'clock in
the morning. So why are you putting yourself
in a dangerous situation or one where there's
risk? Life is all about managing risk versus
reward. Everything fits a standard distribution
curve. And I drive my kids nuts with that. But
a lot of people, we believe that we live in a
binary world, that it's a yes or no. It's a black
and white. It's a one or a zero. The reality
is that inputs are constantly changing and you
have to make an assessment. I make a big deal
out of the OODA loop. And you always have to
be able to take in those inputs and be prepared
to make an adjustment to what you may have considered
a moment ago to be the right choice. So it's
an area I think is extremely important. And I
focus on those areas. And I believe that people
should take heed to that. You see a lot of things
on YouTube where people just start. taking situations
and escalating them things don't have to get
that way if you if you uh aware that there may
be other ways to do it that are less risky that
is you know i'm going to use that as not only
is that wisdom And I hope your kids appreciate
the wisdom that they're getting from you, even
if it does annoy them. But that goes right back
to a couple of our previous episodes, one of
them on non -lethal options like tear gas that
we did in the hierarchy of escalation of force.
And the other one is if you get to that moment
where you have to make that ultimate decision.
having the right legal counsel behind you. We
did a episode with Kent Brown, who's CEO of CCW
Safe. And, you know, thinking holistically about
the entire package of self -defense, you absolutely
hit the nail on the head, Bill. I absolutely
love that. So, okay, two of your companies are
Shooter's Choice and Otis. And I'd like to see
from your perspective, how do they differ? Because,
I mean, this is Frugal Firearms Podcast, so we're
all about value. And maybe you can articulate,
you know, the value proposition for both of those
companies. Yeah, again, another great point.
You know, Otis has, from day one, built its reputation
on being a solid, made in USA. battle -proven
product because we've been supplying the U .S.
military for 30 years. So clearly when our soldiers
are deployed downrange, they need to make sure
that they have cleaning equipment that is durable,
that it works, and ready for use when they need
to. We continue to employ that same product.
methodology quality and so forth not just on
our military products but for our commercial
products that have the otis name a number of
years ago the shooter's choice product became
available and otis purchased shooters choice
and they they were born about the same time frame
as as otis i think within a year or two uh difference
um and and uh one of the things that that shooter's
choice was absolutely known for was its chemicals
there there was a time that they had cleaning
equipment as well but we employed some of the
technology that that we had uh developed and
came up with the shooter's choice the start of
the shooter's choice product line however back
when i started i've had lots of international
experience in around the world. And I have various
sources that I've used in the past. We identified
a resource in Asia that we said, you know what,
we need to have a two -tier product offering,
no different than what GE did back in the 80s
and 90s with a good, better, best type approach.
We have a better and best. Otis will always be
the number one product line. It will always be
the top tier product line. And what we see Shooter's
Choice as being the best value brand. Taking
some of the products with our design specs that
we've identified, making sure that our Asian
supplier manufactures that quality. We have a
quality level of expectation along with other
things that we do here. that we package all that
product together and it goes out the door for
those customers that want the best value brand.
And I think probably the last thing I would say
that also differentiates the Shooter's Choice
brands from all the other brands that you get
from Amazon and so forth is that we have a local
presence. A customer calls up our customer service
and says, hey, I've got a problem with my Shooter's
Choice product line. No problem. We'll take care
of it. Can't do that when, you know, I mean,
we all have experience with Amazon. And, you
know, a lot of times the stuff that you turn
back to Amazon goes back out the door to the
next customer, right? I just received something
that was like that. You could tell it was used.
It was like, eh, it's kind of new, sort of. I
go, every time, you know, I love Amazon for some
of the stuff that I buy as well. But, you know,
I go straight to the reviews and I look at the
one stars. And you can guarantee that at the
one star ratings that there's always a comment
regarding something that has the appearance that
it was once sold and returned. Right, right.
So you don't view, I mean, I think in business,
one of the... one of the best things to do is
own your own competition, right? You maintain
these two lines, and for reasons that are valid
in how you articulated, do you view the two lines
as being complementary to each other, competitively
to each other, maybe to a degree both? Overlap
a little bit. There's always a chance of an overlap,
right? I mean, there are no products, even in
the GE example, where there are strict lanes
where you're going to have complete separation
between two product lines. There's always a cannibalization
zone. But what I would say is that it all depends
on who the owner of the firearm is. If you own
a... $15 ,000 Parazzi shotgun, you're okay with
buying a kit that might be a little more expensive
than the other one, right? In a Walmart case.
Exactly. So someone that has a Parazzi shotgun
is not interested in buying the least expensive.
shotgun cleaning kit. They're going to make the
investment, even if it's a little more money,
to clean their expensive shotgun versus someone
that's new in the space. You know, someone that's
18 or 21 years old has already shelled out quite
a bit of money for a firearm, now has to buy
ammunition, buys a holster, buys other ancillary
equipment. And the last thing that they're thinking
of is a cleaning kit. So they might be They may
be considering something that is lower cost and
now shopping based on dollars as opposed to the
reputation that we have. So another example might
be, you know, the hunter that, you know, has
a rifle. maybe he's been hunting for 20 years
but the only time that rifle gets cleaned is
either right before or right after hunting season
and maybe they fired a shot maybe not they may
be saying well why am i spending more money for
another one why do i why do i just get the cheapest
thing that that that i can find so it is dependent
on you know the consumer quite a bit but that's
quite frankly why we We really pursued a two
-tier product offering to try to cover the entire
landscape and have something for everybody. So
what do you describe your typical customer as?
I mean, it sounds to me like you're saying you
have them all. You've got the LE, you've got
the military, you've got the casual shooter,
all the points in between the serious hunters,
the collectors. Is there, you know, the mass
of the business must be kind of focused in one
area, right? Where you probably have... let's
say, more tactical guys and they're the ones
who are really buying your products? And maybe
that's predicated on your military presence.
Well, you know, anyone that's been deployed and
has gone downrange, they eventually come back
home. They know our product. They've used our
product and they like the reputation. So whether
they're shooting an AR -15, a shotgun, a pistol.
bolt action lever action they know our name they
know our reputation they'll probably buy the
same there are others that don't have that past
experience and they they're going to be you know
available for either buying the shooter's choice
or the otis product line and they're going to
have to make the value um value decision on what
what's most important to them what are the myths
that are associated with gun cleaning. Yeah,
because there's probably a lot of them out there,
and you've probably heard all of them. Well,
and then let me interject my one here. I mean,
you know, I've been shooting guns for, Craig
and I have been shooting guns for, I don't know,
40 years or so, who knows, a long time. One of
the things that I never have used very much is
a JAG. I don't know why. I mean, I have them
in my cleaning kit, but it always ends up being
that between the brush and going up and down
with some clean solvent and some patches, I'm
good. I don't know if you want to talk about
that because I have them in my kit, but I don't
ever pull them out or use them. Well, it's funny
you say that. Yeah, let's address that first,
and then I'll give you another one. So one of
the things with Jags, and I used to shoot, I
still have, I've got a Model 70 Winchester rifle
with the varmint barrel, and that's a TAC driver.
And I have, back when I bought that 30 years
ago, and it was when Winchester was still around,
I remember going online and investigating what...
precision shooters at that time were doing for
cleaning methods and so forth and break -in activities
and so forth. And I followed their cleaning method
to a T. And I've had great results and I wouldn't
change a thing even today. Now, that was a point
of Jack back in the day and one of our competitors
that had the product at that time. And the other
thing I would say is that the slotted jag that
you normally see today, the way it's used typically
is someone will throw a patch through the slot
and send it down the barrel. Well, if you look
at our Otis cleaning patches with the three slots,
and we have videos that show... how to properly,
how to properly, that's the point of JAG on the
Shooter's Choice Kit. There should be a slot.
Is there a slotted one in that kit? Okay, so
the beauty of the slotted tip with our proprietary
patch is that the way you use the slots, it creates
almost an umbrella where you are pulling that
umbrella down the barrel as opposed and being
able to clean circumferentially 360 degrees versus
the the way others are are forced to just simply
throw the patch through the slot you're only
cleaning a portion of that circumference not
the entire circumference so there is a difference
in and how we recommend uh cleaning with a slotted
slotted uh jag uh versus our competition and
we think we have a better mousetrap and for those
in the audience who are thinking i didn't see
a jag because it's an audio only show i will
be post i will be posting pictures of this so
no worries there go ahead ken yeah no no that
that's an excellent point and and you talk about
you know learning the different cleaning methods
i mean when i started you know i Typically speaking,
on my bolt actions, I went down muzzled all the
way down to the breech. And then it's like, no,
no, no, no. Then you meet people at the range
and you're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You
never go from the muzzle end down to the breech.
No, no, no, no, no. You only go in the direction
of the projectile. So you always go down from
the breech. You always follow it out that way.
So, of course, I've been doing that ever since.
But I didn't know that when I first started.
Well, how much does it matter? I mean, you tell
us, Bill. If you're taking a swaging, basically
a piece of metal through a barrel with a lot
of violence, and then you're comparing that to
a brush or a patch going through, you'd think
that the brush or patch couldn't do anything
to that barrel that the bullet didn't already
do. So does direction really matter? Yeah. So
from a cleaning perspective, I'd like to think,
I mean, Even before I started with Otis, I was
always a breech -to -muzzle cleaning guy anyhow
because you always want to protect the crown.
You don't want any risk of scratching the crown.
And I show a demonstration during the classes
that I do about what happens when the bullet
exit starts to exit the muzzle end of the rifle.
It's relying on a symmetrical expulsion of gas.
coming out of that barrel that is now exiting
the barrel and the crown end of the barrel. The
problem is if you have any deformity going on
at the crown, you may be influencing the flight
of that bullet as a consequence. And now that's
not an asymmetrical expulsion of gas. So if someone
has ever buried their muzzle into the dirt, I
highly recommend that, first of all, make sure
it's unloaded. But take some magnification and
look at the end of the barrel. If you see a little
nick, I guarantee you that bullet's going to
be tumbling somewhere downrange if you're shooting
at something that 100 or a couple hundred yards
away. That's now a trip to the gunsmith to relap
that area, right? Yeah, I would probably sell
the gun. The cost of doing that, to try to find
somebody doing it. I'd probably sell a gun to
a local gun shop and buy something else before
I do that. I mean, a lot of times I've hunted
in Alaska. I've hunted elsewhere. I'll throw
a balloon over the end of the barrel to just
protect that crowd. I mean, I've seen guides
in Alaska that will take a piece of electrical
tape and throw it over the end of their barrel
just to make sure nothing goes in that end of
the barrel. This is for probably your guys who
are the one or sub -MOA guys. Who is not your
host, by the way. And the fact that we know this
is because of these super ultra high -speed cameras.
We've all seen the YouTube videos of a million
frames per second watching a bullet come out
of the muzzle or watching a bullet impact a piece
of steel and how it actually splatters. I mean,
you never got to see that. years ago. I mean,
it's the only reason we get to see that now is
because of these super high -speed cameras. But
we learned a lot. We learned a lot from that.
Well, I look at the difference between a custom
barrel and a standard off -the -shelf barrel.
If you look at magnification, custom barrel is
machined so perfectly. That's why you're paying
a lot of money for a custom barrel, because of
the amount of attention that's placed on all
machining surfaces. Yeah. I'm fortunate to have
one custom barrel, which is about an inch and
a quarter in diameter for the full length. I
mean, it's a chunk of steel in 22 -250, which
is a screamer. I mean, it's real tough. Oh, yeah,
that's a 4 ,000 feet per second round. Yes, it
is. Yeah, it moves. Perfect for small little
creatures out in the middle of the prairie someplace.
Okay, so we wandered away from the topic of what
the myths are out there that need to be dispelled.
but I want to combine that with the question
of what kind of mistakes people typically make
other than the direction of the brush or the
patch. I think that, you know, and I believe
that you guys also, and listeners, if you haven't
looked at the Otis and, I said and, not or, Shooter's
Choice YouTube channels, because they maintain
both channels, there's a ton of good information
there. And what's unique about those channels
is that they actually break down. How to break
down. I actually walked into that without knowing
I was going to do that. How to break down individual
types of weapons and clean them correctly, which
is a service that I don't think anybody else
has posted on YouTube with any consistency. But
going back to the question, kind of the common
mistakes and maybe along the myths that are out
there that relate to proper gun care as opposed
to improper. One thing I've noted, when I first
started going to the gun shows and stuff, Craig
and I were doing this 30, 40 years ago, I used
to see stainless steel brushes. Maybe they still
have them, but they were steel brushes in all
the various calibers. And as a new guy, you didn't
necessarily know, oh, what a great way. It's
harder than brass or whatever, bronze or whatever.
And yeah, it's a great way to clean your gun.
In reality, steel on steel is not good. So I
tend not to see those anymore. They're probably
still out there. But I think they do more damage
than they probably help. But anyway. Yeah, no,
good point, Ken. Actually, if I could digress
for a moment, I am not an advocate of steel case
ammo. I tell all my folks that you can buy cheap
stuff. Typically comes from Russia. Might be
easier to pick up with a magnet in the grass.
But I'd rather have some shell casing that degrades.
instead of my gun degrading with uh steel on
steel on steel so i'm with you on that and there's
uh i've seen some what's called like a tornado
brush that i've seen a competitor i have um i've
i've looked at that i've tried it on one of my
guns uh i'm not i'm not an advocate of it but
um i think that i think that that ideally you
want something that is softer than your barrel
or your um cylinder, if we're talking about revolvers,
although let me talk about revolvers here in
a moment. I think absolutely makes better sense
to have something softer than the barrel or chamber
material. Now, when it comes to revolvers, anyone
that has a .357 revolver, Nine times out of ten,
people are shooting .38s instead of .357s out
of it. So what happens if they keep shooting
.38s, that crud that you have before it exits
out of the cylinder is extremely tough to clean
with just a plain bronze brush and so forth.
So that's where I recommend using like a bore
cleaner. really get at it, but you want to make
sure that if you ever go back to a .357 round,
if you don't clean it, it won't seat that .357
round if you've been shooting .38s through it
all this time. Yeah, I've personally experienced
that on an SP -101 Ruger that I have. Same thing,
you just fire .38s, .38s all day long, and then
you're like, all right, we should try a couple
.357s just to, you know, kind of, and it's like,
I can't get it in the cylinder anymore. I've
never had that happen, but then again, I also,
now, Okay, this is part of the myth question,
right? I clean my guns after every time I use
them, and I know that one of the higher failure
rates is actually cleaning guns because they're
put back together incorrectly. So as an engineer,
I understand that. But what would you say, this
is a little bit like how often you change the
oil in your car. I mean, a lot of people are
in the 3 ,000 -mile category, but modern oils,
better filters, that's been pushed out further
now. You know, where's the myth? Where's the
truth? And, you know, how often do we clean them?
And would you consider actually over -cleaning
them to be a mistake? I mean, even though we're
using more of your product, so you're liking
it from a sales perspective. But what's the best
practice? It's a good question. It's funny. It's
one of the questions that I I'm forced to have
to give my students a 50 50 question test to
make sure they've retained some of the information
that I've disseminated during our CCW classes.
But I tell them, I said, hey, imagine my going
out this afternoon and shooting 400 rounds and
you go out the next eight weeks and shoot 50
rounds. Each time, when should you clean and
when should I clean? And 99 out of 100 times
they say, well, every time we go out to shoot
our guns, I say, well, that is correct. But the
reality is what I also tell people, if it's your
EDC, you will clean and lubricate it each and
every time, even if you shoot one round. because
that is a firearm that is there to perform when
you need it to, and there should be no doubt
in your mind whether that gun is going to operate
or not if you were to need it. Now, when it comes
to other guns, I mean, I've got lots of guns,
and there are guns that... Maybe I clean once
every three or four times, you know, might have
five, 600 rounds. I've got some friends of mine.
They say, well, no, just clean it. Whenever it
malfunctions, then you know what the limit is,
right? Well, I'm not going to be on a stage.
I don't want to be on a stage at a match. and
the thing starts stove piping on me because i
haven't i haven't cleaned it right so in fact
what i do is with our boar snake between stages
i'll run it through i'll run it through the uh
through the barrel uh or along the feed ramp
up through the barrel just to clean and you're
referring to your uh you guys referred to it
as a ripcord product right Ripcord. Ripcord,
yes. Not to be confused with a different name,
but the Ripcord has really been an awesome product.
It's actually internally different than other
snakes, just to use a generic term that I've
seen, because a lot of those are just essentially
a poly rope that maybe has brushes impregnated
into it, but this has, it appears to be a spiral
material underneath a a cover and i wondered
it it's it's quite stiff compared to other and
by that i mean what if you try to squeeze it
not i don't mean you can't roll it up but i mean
if you try to squeeze it it's pretty stiff which
i think gives better force on the barrel but
will it work against something like let's say
the micro groove lands and grooves in marlins
i mean will it even work on something like that
So let me kind of give you a little background
on what the Ripcord is all about. So it's a patented
product for us, developed a number of years ago.
We start off with the same aircraft cable that
we use in our other cable cleaning equipment.
And we will injection mold a portion of that
with that texture you're feeling when you rub
your fingers along it. So number one, not only
is it textured, but it's... six to seven inches
long, depending on caliber and so forth, six
to seven inches long. And then we weave Nomex,
which has a melting temp of 700 degrees Fahrenheit,
over it. So you can have a smoking hot gun, like
an AR -15 that you just shot, and maybe the barrel
or the gas tube is red hot. Well, you throw that
through there, it's not going to melt in the
barrel. You take one of our competitor's products
that you described and... It can melt in the
barrel because it's not made of Nomex. And there's
quite a bit of resistance. I mean, you've got
to either use the black pull handle that comes
with it, or if you are cleaning a pistol, you
could wrap... Personally, I just wrap it around
my hands once or a couple times, and then I'll
just yank it through because it's got a lot of...
a lot of cleaning capability by pulling it through
the barrel and for pistols for example the the
cleaning portion is two to three times longer
than the actual barrel so you're getting a lot
of cleaning action and then finally if you want
you can actually attach one of the bronze brushes
on the end and pull it through two with it so
yes and that's the that's wonderful that that
is not available anywhere else that i'm aware
of i really love the i have the uh the record
in the the the 12 -gauge shotgun as well as the
20 -gauge because I do a lot of shotgun stuff.
And I absolutely love it. I love the fact that
it's not just one, I don't know, we call it an
expansion bubble or whatever that presses up
against the inside. It's multiple. You get three
of them, I think, in the 12 and the 20 -gauge.
That is correct. And the fact that you can screw
in on the end of it the brush or something, beautiful.
I absolutely love it. Bill, again, the actual
cleaning length of the ripcord is about how long?
I mean, not the part that you drop through the
barrel, but. Probably have about six or seven
inches of cleaning surface because you'll notice
the fat portion. It's more pronounced when you
have the 9mm or the .45 caliber or the .30 caliber.
We match the thickness to the diameter of the
barrel that we use. And I think that part of
the resistance that people have in cleaning their
guns is the investment in time. I mean, you're
not on the range shooting anymore. You're maybe
watching TV or maybe just over your bench. you
know, drudgery ensues as you have to clean the
thing. And the important part to remember here
that Bill is emphasizing is that the amount of
contact time and distance that you have on the
ripcord is equivalent. Like imagine you took
patches and lined them up. to get seven inches
of patches the way they fold that's an awful
lot of passes where this does the same thing
in one pass so it's faster and more efficient
and and that's it's a little bit like what i
said earlier when you think about what the life
of a barrel is i don't know if you listen to
that episode bill but there's a statistic out
there of what's the life of a barrel and people
think you know in terms of you know numbers of
rounds or something it's like six seconds so
where did that number come from it's the aggregated
time of, like, if you lined all the bullets up,
that the thing's ever going to shoot, how many
seconds of bullets would be in that barrel? And
this is analogous to that, where you're saving
a ton of time by using a ripcord instead of patch
after patch after patch. I mean, I imagine that
you want to run a patch through just to make
sure it comes out clean and like your job's done.
True statement? Well, you know, it's funny when
you're asking about myths. The myth that I grew
up with, that we all grew up with is, and every
instruction manual will tell you, keep pulling
the patch through until it's clean. I've tried
that a number of times. I'll throw 12, 15 patches
through it and it's still got black on it. It's
good for business, right? It's good for a bit.
I want you to keep buying our patches. But the
reality is it's never going to get clean. It's
never going to be. black free did you know that
that's a technique that's used time and time
again in selling vacuum cleaners because there's
always dirt in the carpet and no matter how many
times you go over it with your vacuum cleaner
when you get the kirby or whatever the really
expensive one it's like look how much more dirt
we got well you would have got that anyway so
yeah all all true um are there any other mistakes
that people should be avoiding Like maybe in
terms of chemical choice or something like that.
Well, yeah, I think one of the things that people
need to be careful of is if they've got some
type of finish that they're not sure of, maybe
take a Q -tip and make sure that in a non -conspicuous
place, you try that first. We had a situation
where someone was using our bore cleaning material
on a... graphic that was hand applied and the
graphic ended up being removed so i i think that's
that's an issue i think that people got to be
careful regarding muscle loading versus people
may or may not know you want to be using aqueous
cleaning solutions now once you clean it and
it's dry you could put an oil on it to prevent
it from rusting But a lot of people aren't aware
that in muzzle loading, to be able to clean black
powder, you have to use water or some type of
aqueous solution to actually do the cleaning.
So those are probably two of the most, I would
say, most important potential errors that people
make with cleaning their firearms. And probably
last but not least, making sure they assemble
it back together again. One thing that I remember
years ago, I... I hated cleaning my Mach 2 Ruger
pistol. I just hated it. And, you know, there
was more than once I had to go to YouTube to
say, is there an easier way to clean this thing?
And lo and behold, eventually they came out with
the Mach 4. So I sold that Mach 2 and went to
the Mach 4, and now I love cleaning that gun.
It's so much easier. You probably assembled it
and put the little lever thing back in and locked
the gun up. You couldn't do it because, oh, my
God, yeah. It was a knife. It's like one of those
brain -teasing toys trying to, you know. Yeah,
put it back together. Put it together again.
Oh, yeah. You were talking about using an aqueous
solution. Obviously, that means water. And, you
know, water doesn't have toxicity, except that
it also will cause rust, especially when mixed
with something that's electrolytic. Are there
challenges that you face in terms of increasing
either awareness or regulation? relative to,
let's say, the California Clean Air Act, for
example, has VOC requirements that probably affect,
and probably only in a negative way, the efficacy
of your chemicals. Is that a problem that you
face in increasing amounts in the United States?
And maybe as a subtext to that, Do you sell other
products in other countries where you don't face
those problems and you can like sell the good
stuff, quote unquote, other places, but you can't
sell it in the U .S.? Yeah. So, no, those are
good questions. I think that a couple of things
that are worthy of pointing out that, number
one, there is no difference. And the chemicals
that we supply to California customers versus
anyone else, the chemicals are the same. But
there are strict requirements for labeling. So
we do comply with California's requirements for
labeling, labeling product, and so forth. And,
of course, all chemicals have safety data sheets.
They used to be material safety data sheets.
They're now called SDSs. The only restriction
is being able to airship. So you can't airship
aerosol cans. Well, that's safety of the aircraft.
I mean, that's why, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Value jet
in Florida of crash comes to mind, yeah. We've
always explored, you know, different chemicals
and so forth. There's really no need to change
because the chemicals that we have, we're extremely
proud of and they work. They work efficiently,
and unless there is some new solution we need
to come up with that hasn't been addressed yet,
we very much stand by our products that we have
today. And then how did you manage to become
so successful and the de facto choice in the
military? I mean, I can go on military bases.
I go to the exchanges. No matter what the service,
I see in the gun section, if they have one, or
the sporting goods section of the exchange, regardless
of the branch of service, I see your stuff hanging
there, like a lot of it. The key to our success,
and not just our success, but any company that
listens to their customers, voice of the customer,
you need to understand what are their pain points?
What do they want? What do they need? What solutions
can we offer to make things better for them?
And our guys have been out, including Jerry Williams,
with the command, with the command sergeant major,
with the private, with the sergeant, with all
different levels of our troops that have been
deployed and offer solutions. The same thing
with commercial products. beta test groups that
we've used. Many times I have to be very careful
as a competitive shooter. I represent a small
sliver of the total buying commercial market.
And I've got to be careful that if I insist on
something that has absolutely no value to the
new shooter, why are we incurring extra costs
that doesn't bring any additional value? So we
do pay attention to the voice of our customer.
And that is really the key success to any company
is you've got to listen to your customer. You
need to know your customer and you've got to
listen to them. And things will change over time.
I mean, look, even in the last four years that
I've been the CEO here, know ar -15s with a rage
then it was lever action rifles now bolt action
right so you know what things change one of the
things that clearly what i found in this industry
and i you know when i first started here i said
man i should have joined the firearms industry
years ago but one thing i can say is that the
firearms industry has the widest pendulum swings
than any other industry that I've been in because
it's so dependent on what administration is in,
what the courts are doing and saying, and whether
we're in a war or not. Or if you look at the
latest Doge effort that occurred here this year,
lots of things had a lot of the government expenses.
People were very cautious to want to generate
purchase orders for anything, and they wanted
to stay under the radar and make sure that I
don't want to be buying anything. I might get,
lose my job. So, and some people did lose their
jobs and people are in different chairs. Those
same people that were in chairs before are no
longer there. So yeah. Does your work with foreign
militaries help level the playing field for you
in that regard? They're all different sizes,
right? You know, the Marine Corps is smaller
than the entire Army. We also have a lot of the
three -letter agencies that have their own needs.
Again, smaller in numbers, but we service them
all, whether it's FBI or DEA or ATF or any of
the agencies that have agents, they have guns.
So they need to be clean. They need to be serviced.
So your testing protocols are really, I mean,
I'm sure you have internal testing and you mentioned
beta testing, but a lot of it really is based
on customer feedback and getting in front of
the perceived need. Absolutely. Absolutely. I
was just thinking about basically partnering
with some of the firearms manufacturers so that
your product comes out of the box. literally
out of the box with their brand new firearm,
you know, perhaps some sort of reduced cleaning
kit, you know, patches, brushes, jags, whatever.
Are you doing any of that or plan to do any of
that? We actually do a lot of that. So I won't
mention any names, but we do a lot of that. All
the names that you could probably spit off here,
the next 10 names, we're probably doing something
with eight or nine of them. One thing I can say
is that the new squad weapon that SIG was awarded,
we were part of the test protocol with our cleaning
equipment. So they, along with the other competitors
of theirs that were pitted against each other,
we were the cleaning kit on all three manufacturers
that presented firearms for testing. Our equipment,
our cleaning equipment is part of every rifle
that goes out the door. And that creates equity
automatically with the users, and then they'll
buy it for themselves. I mean, it's a fantastic
business strategy, honestly, and I appreciate
that. So time to dime out, not by name, your
competitors. Not why do they suck, but why are
you better? Just phrase it any way you want,
but just... But please don't disparage by name
somebody else. Well, I think, again, we don't
like having to mention names. That's not who
we are. We base our reputation on our product
and let consumers make that judgment. But quite
frankly, there's no other competitor for a product
that is made in the United States of America.
We're here in upstate New York. We make all our
Otis equipment here, and we do not have... really
any competition when it comes to USA made product.
Now, there's a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff that
comes from Asia. Even the old house brand that
used to come in an orange box back when I was
a kid, that has been made in Asia ever since.
And, you know, we, quite frankly, I tell my sales
folks, I said, anytime you go into somewhere,
You tell the dealer or whoever it is that there's
no need to buy that other stuff anymore. We have
the whole package. We have the best value brand.
We have the top tier. We've got rods. We've got
cables. We've got everything. Why do you need
anybody else's product? You get one source. You
can get everything you need from us. And so that's
one of the things that I... pride pride ourselves
so that we pride ourselves on is to be able to
be the one -stop shop for all gun cleaning needs
bar none so is there i'm going to kind of combine
two questions here like what what is your greatest
innovation or the product you're most proud of
and then i would follow that up with i mean is
there anything really new in gun cleaning and
and how do you convince Except when you run out
of patches or you run out of chemicals, you know,
or the brush gets too, you know, frayed or something
like that. How do you convince someone to like
go out and buy new stuff when they've already
think they got it and they're good to go? Well,
you know, that is something that it's always
difficult. People, you know, people are creatures
of habits. So someone that's been cleaning their
gun for 40 years and for us to come out and say,
hey, you should try this. You think we're going
to. convince them to really want to do something.
However, I will say that stay tuned for next
year because we probably have one of the largest
and most innovative products that we're going
to be coming out with in 2026. Do we get to see
this at SHOT Show? Yeah, will it be at SHOT?
Maybe. Do you need a beta tester, Bill? Fair
enough. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff
gets regurgitated over the years. I mean, we,
you know, some of the things that we've produced
over the years, you know, whether it's our bone
tool for cleaning the BCG of an AR -15 or the
bolt of the firing pin. Really trying to come
up with innovative ways to clean things. We have
expanded into the black powder market. It was
an adjacent market. That was something that we
did this year. Same thing with airsoft guns.
And we're very careful. We have silicone oil,
not a hydrocarbon, because rubber O -rings expand.
You don't want to be using regular oil on airsoft
guns. Um, we have a suppressor cleaning kit,
uh, that, that is a huge, um, uh, great interest
in that. Uh, it's, it's, it's, um, yeah, it was
a big hit. We released, we released that last
year's shot show along with the muzzle loading
kit and the airsoft kit. Um, those three products,
again, listening to the customer, what, what
have they been asking for? And here we go. Then
on the suppressor kit, um, maybe, Just a very
quick tutorial on, I mean, I know why, because
it ain't going to work if it gets carbon in there
and there's a crap ton of carbon that ends up
in a suppressor really quickly. But yeah, you
could add to that, but is it going to? We're
talking about innovation, maybe the products
you're most proud of. I imagine the ripcord has
got to be one of them. Absolutely. It's so different
than your competitors. But what's the... methodology
by which you clean a suppressor and will it work
in monolithic suppressors? So, you know, well,
that's the beauty is those monolithics that 3D
printed, right? There's no way of disassembling
and having baffles that you can remove and clean
separately, right? So that the 3D printed suppressors
need some way of cleaning. So the question that
I will ask you, is do you want to clean so that
it's operational or do you want to clean until
it's pristine? I would like to clean one that
I could legally own in California, which I can't.
Well, you and I, my friend, have the same problem
because I can't own anything that's NFA regulated
here in New York City. Okay, but in fairness
to your question, That's right. Oh, if you said
operational or pristine, I mean, they're matters
of degree, and I would say that if I'm only cleaning
to operational sustainability, then I'm going
to have to clean more often because I'm not cleaning
it thoroughly. So I guess I'd have to defer the
question in a way that... Let's say, I'll just
put a number on it. If I can operationally get
it back up to where it needs to be to be fine
in 10 minutes, but pristine is an hour, and it's
all labor time, I'm going to take the 10 minutes.
Yeah, so let me kind of, that was kind of a trick
question because a couple of things. One is,
if you were to subject a suppressor to a chemical
cleaning agent that removed, all foreign materials,
you are probably going to also eliminate the
outside cosmetic color. So the challenge is how
aggressive can you make the cleaning agent without
eliminating or removing the outside cosmetic
covering? And it all depends on the material
of construction, right? A titanium 3D printed
suppressor is one thing on the inside, but maybe
aluminum on the outside with some type of black
anodized or what have you, right? So every suppressor
has a different material of construction. Let
me give you an example. I love my Jerry Miklik
929 Smith & Wesson revolver. It's an eight shot,
nine millimeter revolver. And I had a comp. that
um i have now removed it but i had a comp that
i shot maybe a thousand thousand rounds through
it a couple thousand rounds through it and no
matter what i did to whatever chemical treatment
i use because it's a stainless steel comp pretty
easy to remove and access and even even with
a pick I couldn't remove the buildup of the lead
that or whatever debris was being splattered
on the inside of that last edge before the bullet
exits. So to get that aggressive, you need some
type of mechanical means as opposed to a chemical
only means when it comes to trying to remove
that. So that's why I kind of, I asked that question.
The approach that we use, so the suppressor cleaning
kit that we provide, it's a concentrate, so it
does have to be diluted and take some time depending
on the condition, how long it's in there. It's
going to take a little bit of experimentation,
but once you get that figured out, it will clean
well. Now, the other thing is that I would not
wait to fire. 2 ,000 rounds through a suppressor
and then clean it, I would have a probably more
regulated and more precise cleaning regimen.
Probably more important for the suppressor than
it is for the rest of the gun because that is
going to get dirty fast. Do you have ones that
are specifically like for ultrasonic that work
better with ultrasonics or do you concern yourself
that way? To be honest, with heat and time in
an ultrasonic, you're not going to be able to
remove that impact metal impact that's that's
there um because again the more aggressive you
get on trying to try to get it back to the original
weight of i mean that's how you really determine
that's how you determine whether you've cleaned
it out you take a weight the weight of the suppressor
when it's brand new and and then use it and then
clean it and then measure the weight again are
you back at the same weight now the problem is
if you're eating away at base material right
hey it's it's actually lighter that's a great
cleaning job right just but you just got to use
nitric acid it'll it'll decrease in weight so
it's you know when somebody pays 900 bucks for
a suppressor you got to be very careful for cleaning
that and you know we could we get more aggressive
yes but i think the the problem is i i don't
want to keep buying suppressors because people
have been destroying them with our... Well, yeah,
the difficulties, I mean, still with having to
register them and everything else, at least currently,
that's almost, that's kind of almost impossible,
but you, and the, as an engineer, I mean, I get
the whole, you could be dealing with aluminum,
you could be dealing with steel, you could be
dealing with titanium, you could be dealing with
other, you know, alloys, and short of taking
your employees and having them dip their hand,
The more junior employees have them dip their
hand in the solution and leave it there for a
half an hour. As they move up the corporate ladder,
they'll have to do that less. Toxicity matters.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm also an engineer.
I'm a chemical engineer, so I know better. So
I can't recommend something that I know is wrong.
I touched on earlier as we're finishing out here,
I'm sure you've got, probably a library of funny
or entertaining stories if you want to share
any of that stuff. I also want to give you a
chance to talk about your YouTube channels, which
I touched on earlier, which are excellent, and
I'd recommend them to anybody, even if you're
on the fence about buying Otis or Shooter's Choice
products. you know, agnostically, they're still
very, very informative. And I think that people
need to go look at that. But the floor is yours
for, like I said, any funny anecdotal stories,
anything that we didn't cover that you want to
cover? Well, I appreciate, first of all, I appreciate
both you, Craig, and Ken reaching out to us.
This is really an opportunity for us to be able
to. show what we do and the reputation that we
have has been well -deserved by comments that
our customers provide for us. So we think we're
very customer -focused, and I've always encouraged
people to reach out to us or to me. You reach
our customer service group, and if someone wants
to reach out to me, they can just ask for me
by name, and I've done that multiple times. Anything
that has to do with firearms, I'm always open
for discussion. It's a topic that's near and
dear to my heart, so I've got no problems with
that. I think that cleaning should be no different
than anything else that someone cares about their
investment, whether it's your car, your boat,
your house. uh firearms are the same thing and
they really need to be properly maintained if
they if if you're expecting them to perform the
way they're supposed to um when it comes to oil
you know i i tell anyone that i've you know any
train anybody that i've trained if some oil is
good more is not better and they the the key
is to use i quite frankly i tend to use less
um i also clean my guns under magnification because
i get pretty anal about that i you know i i look
i've got a lighted lens that i look through and
i i want to make sure that q -tips i'm not a
huge q -tip fan i i like uh you know the mascara
eyeliner type polyester type q -tip uh if i have
to get in there and do some we have we have some
of that as well But I get real anal about cleaning,
and I want to make sure that the gun is clean.
Is that part of it? You mentioned that you had
a patent on your patches, which I thought, that
kind of like, what? They patented patches? How
do you do that? Is that because they don't leave
behind fibers and things? No, it is a cotton
patch. And again, it's, you know, I'm kind of
anal about that. But it is a cotton patch, but
there are three slots. on a cotton patch of ours
it's a round patch with three separate slots
and we have a youtube video that shows how to
properly um insert that in through the slotted
tip and that's kind of what i was describing
earlier as kind of it forms somewhat of an umbrella
as you're dragging it through the barrel you
have 360 degree cleaning or drying as a consequence
of that unique approach to applying the patch
through the slotted tape. See, listeners, that's
kind of almost as a finishing comment here. This
is the kind of company you want to do business
with because they're thinking about the problem.
They're not just copying everybody else's stuff
and throwing a product out there. And I'm looking
here that, unfortunately, you guys can't see,
but I will put a picture of it on the website.
The kit that we have, which is the universal
cleaning kit, look, it's worth the money just
to have the box. Even if they sent the box empty,
it'd still be worth it because it allows you
to organize your stuff. But in here, there's
a lot of the products, not the ripcord, but a
lot of the products that we've talked about today,
no stainless steel brushes, and really a well
-thought -out, The organization, I've got my
stuff in a box, in a bag, in a box. And when
I dump it out of the table, I'm like fishing
through it, trying to find like, where's this
one thing that I need? So, you know, this is
why you want to do business with companies like
Otis and Shooter's Choice. And again, if you
think that their stuff is expensive, you know,
guys, think about the alternative of not taking
care of your stuff and how much pain. If you
hurt the crown of your barrel and you're going
to try now chasing, you know, the group is opening
up and you don't know why, what was the cost
of that? So, Bill. Sure, yeah, maybe in closing,
you know, back to why it's important of muscle
to, breach to muscle is that, you know, what
do you do with a lever action rifle or what do
you do with a revolver? The only way you can
get at the... the breech -to -muzzle approach
is using our cable system. So that's probably
the final comment is that we are shooters here
at Otis. So we not only make and sell our product,
but we also use our product. So for us, we're
into it firsthand knowledge, and we also listen
to our customers. offer solutions to our customers.
All right. Hey, Bill, thanks very much for your
time today. That was an outstanding show. I mean,
all of our shows are outstanding, but this was
maybe outstanding among outstanding. And we'll
let you go and get on to running your businesses
and hope to catch up to you if you're going to
be personally there in January at the SHOT Show.
Awesome. Thanks, guys. Same here. Yep. Look forward
to seeing you. All right, today we had an opportunity
to talk to Bill, who basically is CEO of a couple
of the companies, the Otis Company and Shooter's
Choice, a couple of his companies, talking about
cleaning products and something that, since we
are Frugal Firearms, we want you to be able to
purchase a firearm and maintain it properly.
And what Bill's company, Otis and Shooter's Choice,
is really focused on doing is... Precisely that,
making sure that your investment in your firearm
is not going to be deteriorated by not properly
maintaining it. But I mean, do you think that
the Otis stuff, you know, bills off the line
now? And Otis stuff is more expensive. Do you
think he made the case that the Otis stuff is
worth it? I kind of think he did. Oh, I think
he did too, yeah. Yeah, because I mean, shooter's
choice is if you're, you know, maybe the logical
choice if you're... Not going to put a lot of
rounds down range, or if you're talking about
a gun that you don't bet your life on. But as
the cost of ownership of the product, I mean
the gun, goes up, I guess you proportionally
can make excuses for spending more on better
cleaning material. No, absolutely. I mean, I
have been using Otis, particularly in my shotguns,
for years. And the Ripcord is a phenomenal product.
In my personal opinion, it's the best way to
clean a shotgun. There's really nothing better.
Do you like it better than the other, like the
woven fabric? Absolutely. You like it better
than the other snakes that are out there? Yeah,
and one of the things that he had mentioned that
I didn't comment on when he was here online with
us, but the fact that it was made out of Nomex.
And, of course, Nomex is the material that they
use to make the fireproof suits and so forth
for the race car drivers. So if there's a crash
and the car gets doused in fuel before they can
put them out, the driver is being protected from
third -degree burns by Nomex, and I did not realize.
If you want to see the best video ever that shows
the efficacy of Nomex, go look at the Formula
One crash of a driver who's no longer in Formula
One, now he does IndyCar, Romain Grosjean. Grosjean
hit a TechPro barrier at... almost full speed
and split it split the car in half and the car
cut through the barrier and he managed to and
the thing just ignited and that hadn't happened
in formula one in decades and he managed like
everyone's look at this going he's dead he's
dead there's absolutely no way someone gets out
of this and all of a sudden he climbs out and
the only burns he had were on his hands wow So
Nomex is a phenomenal material, and the fact
that it's being utilized in this way, not that
I'm ever planning to get a barrel so hot, cherry
red hot, that I'm going to need to be able to
try to clean it at that point in time. Yeah,
let's clean it now. No, let's not. Let's not.
Let's wait until it cools down, because I'm not
in a firefight someplace. But I appreciate the
fact that the level and the quality of the material
is being utilized. is is perfect for that type
of thing i mean obviously the the military people
would have a much better uh reason for doing
that but hey it's quality stuff so yeah yeah
exactly so hey uh because we're honest people
and if we make a mistake we want to uh be the
first people to say that oops we made a mistake
uh the last show where we talked about the glock
series v or roman numeral v if you prefer and
tangentially mentioned differences between that
and the regular Glock Series 5. And brought in
the discussion also about the Ruger RXM. Actually,
that show was recorded before either Ken or I
had seen the actual guts of what had changed
in those guns. It turns out that they're not
that different, and it really was just a ramp
that they basically added to defeat the Glock
switch. But what happened soon thereafter, Ken?
Right. They didn't want the people to produce
the illegal Glock switches and so forth, which
are out there. So they did make changes, and
then they immediately came out with a Gen 6,
which apparently shares all of the internals
as the... model v uh with some nice improvements
to it so well no i was referring to the what
happened like as you saw on the internet a very
short time thereafter where like within the next
couple days some somebody came out with a version
of the glock switch that defeats the all the
modification that glock had done by putting in
a ramp to protect the cruciform trigger bar Oh,
yeah. I totally get that. I mean, the firearms
people are like us. I mean, we're innovative.
Yeah, but we're not criminals. No, we're not
criminals. No, we don't want to do that. But
people are, particularly with the printing at
home and the ability, the CAD software, you can...
basically design things and people are creative
and I don't want to stifle that creativity. Um,
but I want people to obviously follow the laws
too, and I want people to be safe. So, cause
we all want to enjoy the shooting sports. Yeah,
and I think that, you know, again, so what was
the mistake we made? We actually thought that
there were greater changes in the Glock V series,
and I even used the term that the RXM was, quote,
a different animal. That really actually goes
to the fire control group, or the trigger, if
you will, but not the cruciform trigger bar.
That is the thing that the Glocks, which is interacting
with. So, you know, I want to just put it out
there that we recognize the error that we made
and we want to put a retraction out. But what's
the other big bit of news for us? The Gundy's.
So do you guys know? Indeed. The Gundy's. If
you go to the Gundy's dot com, that's T -H -E
-G -U -N -D -I -E -S dot com. Yeah. The Gundy's
dot com. There are numerous categories there
that you can vote for. And these are a lot of
your YouTube people. Podcasters are one of them.
We're down there to like third one from the bottom.
There's a category called most innovative podcasters
in there. We have podcast to the. Here, podcast
of the year is the category. Podcast of the year,
yep. And you go down there and vote for us. That
would be fantastic. I think we've got about another
week in a bit. It closes on the 15th, so as of
the time today is... Five more days. Yeah, today
is the 10th of probably... This will probably
hit the airwaves or the virtual airwaves on the
11th, I imagine, perhaps later today. And we
really would appreciate a vote. And by the way...
The stipulation for getting into the Gundy's
to even get a nomination is, I looked at it,
it's pretty strict. It's pretty strict. The honor
to be even nominated is a great honor, and we
are very thankful of that. Yeah, thankful to
you guys for making that happen, but now it's
your time to go out and complete the circle here
and get those votes in for... You know, not just
our podcast, but other influencers that you think
are deserving, or writers and shooters and everything
else that's in the podcast industry. But please,
please, please. Vote for us because, oh my gosh,
that would help us attract better guests and
then you get a better podcast. And the other
thing I want to mention is that you can vote
once per day. It's not just a one vote thing.
It's a once per day vote thing. So the address
specifically, if you don't want to meander around
in the website, is thegundies .com slash vote,
which is very easy. So other ways to contact
us are. You can get a hold of us at our website,
of course, where you can find also our links
to various social media, Facebook, X, Twitter.
Previous shows, all of that, all there. Yep,
Instagram as well. That would be at frugalfirearmspodcast
.com. The email address is frugalfirearmspodcast
at gmail .com. And there's a new link also that's
going to be posted to the website, which looks
like a little cup of coffee. And what's that
for? That is a link to our Buy Me a Coffee. uh
site where if you are feel so inclined because
you know this show does actually cost us money
uh to to publish uh we don't make any money on
this so maybe to defer you know a few dollars
here and there of the cost of producing this
show you know anybody who feels so inclined you
know you'll pop us a couple dollars or two that
would be that would be beautiful but more importantly
you know hey tell your friends subscribe like
Leave a comment. The comments really help the
algorithm push us to the top. And apparently
we're doing well enough to get a Gundy's nomination,
which I never expected. I don't know about you,
Ken, if you were behind all this or something.
I wasn't behind it, but I'm very, very pleased
that we were. Yeah, so all right, guys. Thanks
very much, and we'll see you next time. Bye -bye.
You're going to go back to your bathroom? Hell
yes. I spent all my time laying on the floor
in the goddamn bathroom.