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I like that story, but I'll tell you that I would probably have to spend maybe the time

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waiting for the police to try to get the taste of Diet Coke out of my mouth and I'd probably

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go get a beer in order to do it.

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Welcome to episode 11 of the Fugal Firearms Podcast.

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The Firearms Podcast that is different than anyone else's because we focus on the value

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proposition.

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What we're here to do is help you get the most for your shooting dollar.

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And today we're going to go into a subject that probably a lot of you are going to find

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controversial because we're going to dive right to the deep end of frugal by talking

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about little calibers, mouse guns and 22s and things like that as a valid form of self-defense.

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Now before you click next and go to your next podcast, you want to listen to our guest tonight.

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Our guest is Dr. Sherman House, a person who I have known of for over 10 years now when

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he first appeared on Ballistic Radio with John Johnston.

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And by the way, if you don't know, Ballistic Radio was the inspiration for this podcast.

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So I highly recommend going back and listening to those past episodes.

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If you're inclined, there's something like 370 of them.

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But Dr. House is unique in that I think that he does an excellent job of being maybe a

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clearinghouse for a lot of expert opinions, his included, but he also has had a lot of

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discussions with some of the best and brightest in the shooting community, Paul Gomez, Claude

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Werner, Darrell Bulkey, people that you may or may not be familiar with, and all people,

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minus Paul Gomez, who sadly passed a number of years ago, who we would like to have as

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future guests on the show.

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But jumping right into it, I'll introduce my first, my co-host, Ken.

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Ken, how are you tonight?

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Doing well.

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Doing very well.

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Looking forward to this conversation.

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I'm a person who both likes small calibers as well as mouse guns, as I have quite a few

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of them myself.

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So with that, why don't we go ahead and start?

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Yeah, and I will remind the listeners too, that nothing you're hearing here is legal

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advice.

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Nothing you're hearing here is other than our opinions and the opinions of our guests.

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And tonight, the opinions are going to be a little bit different than maybe what you're

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used to.

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So, you know, do your own research, you know, be smart and make the right decisions, but

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make the informed decisions.

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And that's what we're here to help.

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So without further ado, Dr. House, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into

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this and who you are and what you do.

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Well, so my name is Sherman House.

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I kind of came into this business in sort of a weird way.

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I originally as a young man had designs on becoming a police officer.

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And I was a law enforcement cadet for a few years and then ended up kind of getting distracted

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by the fire service and ended up going into the fire service and EMS for a total of about

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10 years and then went to professional school to become a dentist.

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And so that wasn't a radical departure by any means.

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I was the only person in my class of 75 people who came from that background.

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So let's see, I spent about five, almost six years as a reserve peace officer in the state

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of Tennessee when I was in practice as a dentist.

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So I did that until May of 2023, just last year.

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And so I kind of have a broad base of experience also in there.

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I spent a number of years in the armored truck service, working, riding shotgun on our armored

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truck.

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And that was how I paid for my tuition through junior college.

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So I went to junior college, got a transfer degree and then transferred to a full-time

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university, Gonzaga University in Spokane, Washington.

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And while I was at school, I played rugby for Gonzaga, go Bulldogs.

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And I also worked at an emergency room there as an EMT.

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So did you see any gunshot victims while you were working as an EMT at all?

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Oh yeah.

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Like in the pre-hospital service where you're on an ambulance and then also in the emergency

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room.

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Yeah.

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I mean, in fact, we always joke and say that the hospital in Spokane that I worked at, we

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called it the Deaconess Gun and Knife Club.

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Just because it was such a frequent occurrence.

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I mean, Spokane, Washington, unfortunately, it hasn't gotten any better, but 20 years

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ago it was still a pretty violent place.

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And with the fentanyl issues these days, it hasn't gotten any better.

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So you being a dentist, I think, well, Doc Holliday was a dentist.

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So there's something, you have a little bit of lineage there, I suppose.

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Was Dr. Martin Flackler also a dentist?

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No, he was an MD, but Gary K. Roberts is also a hospital dentist like I am.

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He's basically Faakler's modern day protege and has recapitulated a lot of Dr. Faakler's

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work, but also created a pretty wide body of experience and knowledge based on his work

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as well.

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So for those who don't know, the people that we're talking about, Dr. Martin Flackler was

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one of the, I think, probably original long theses on gunshot wounds and has written extensively

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about that.

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And now you're saying his protege is also a dentist, interestingly enough.

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I guess it just runs in dentistry.

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Runs in your family too, Craig.

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It does.

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It does.

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My son is an aspiring dentist currently doing, he is a dentist technically, doing his residency

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in Tucson, Arizona.

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What's his residency in?

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In general dentistry.

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He's got an AEGD and he's doing that and then looking for his more permanent position when

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he rolls out of that in a few months.

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But back to the topic at hand, you've written extensively and you have a website, which

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by the way, I do recommend, highly recommend our listeners to go give a read at the civilian

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defender.

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I like the format of your website, Dr. House.

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It's an easy read because essentially your articles are all serialized and you don't

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have to jump around to different things along the website.

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It's easy to follow the train of thinking and the evolution of the thinking, the way

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you've laid it out.

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But one of the things that when you talk to John Johnston about back in 2014, I think

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originally in his season two and then again in season four had to do with, I think it

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was maybe best captured in your more recent article about the mouse gun mindset.

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We were hoping you could talk about that a little bit for people who think that, you

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know, if I don't have a nine millimeter or better, then I'm going to get myself killed

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on the street for lack of a better, you know, larger caliber.

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So can you run with that for a little while?

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Sure.

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So the gist of that is mouse gun mindset is not my terminology.

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That's Darryl Bulkey's terminology.

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And the thesis of his argument there is that, you know, there's basically two kinds of guns

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in defensive firearms usage for regular civilians.

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There's getting into trouble guns and getting out of trouble guns.

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So getting out of trouble gun is a mouse gun, you know, something that is small caliber,

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you know, sub caliber, generally like 38 special or smaller readily concealable in the lightest

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of clothing, lightweight enough so that it doesn't create issues with being retained

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with holsters that aren't reliant on a belt for retention.

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So generally guns that weigh under a pound and are shorter in length.

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So the whole idea being that, you know, as in Darryl's case, you know, in my case and

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a few other the other guys, Greg Elefratz and such that we're not actively working in

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law enforcement anymore.

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So our enforcement capabilities or desire to do that is nil.

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And if we are faced with a defensive scenario, it's because someone has misjudged us and

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chosen us incorrectly through victim selection.

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And now we're, you know, being forced to respond.

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So they're a not a proactive weapon.

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They're a reactive weapon that is meant for portability, concealability, and I'd also

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say possibly like ease of use.

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So the problem is, is when you get into large, larger caliber guns, so like even say just

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the common subcompact or micro compact nine millimeters, like even a sig 365, you know,

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it's a, you know, it's a riddle, original iteration, it was a 10 shot nine millimeter

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and it's pretty small.

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You know, it's on order of the size of a J frame, but you have 10 rounds of nine millimeter

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in the butt of the gun, which makes it heavy on one end and light on the other and relatively

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short.

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So if you carry it like with drawstring shorts or, you know, drawstring pants or in a coat

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pocket, it's going to sag because it weighs more than a pound, even if it's just a little

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bit more.

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So contrast that to something like, you know, Ruger LCP max or Ruger LCP or a Kel-Tec P32

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or a Beretta Bobcat or something of that style where it's well under a pound.

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It's relatively balanced because it's so small.

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There's it is of course, if it's a semi-automatic pistol, it's still going to be butt heavy.

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But if it's an alloy framed revolver, you know, with a steel cylinder and a steel barrel,

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then it could still come in well with under a pound and be comfortable to carry in a variety

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of situations.

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So the whole idea being that if you're forced into a defensive scenario, you have not necessarily

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the best gun for it, but in most civilian defensive scenarios, any gun will do.

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The best gun is the gun you have with you, basically.

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Yeah, I myself, I'm also a bit old school probably.

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And I have my daily carry is a 38 special, but I also have nines that are available too.

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And I'm also a wheel gun guy.

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I just like revolvers, always have, probably always will.

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They're reliable.

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The nice thing about them is there's no buttons, tabs, this to push or anything.

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I can also hand it if I ever had to, not that I would, but if I ever had to hand it to somebody,

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anybody in the world could figure out how to use it.

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They just pull the trigger.

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Yeah, the manual of arms is very short.

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Manual arms is almost nothing.

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You hand them with something, you know, somebody's SIGs with a de-cocker and a this and a that

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and a button and you know, no, no clue what's going to happen.

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So we may have already touched on it, Dr. House, but when on your website, you talk

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about the pragmatic approach to self-defense, is that, it sounds like you've kind of already

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roundly touched on it to begin with that maybe there people are conflating two different

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things.

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They're conflating the need for lethality and the need for let's say combat effectiveness

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or maybe you could even call it civilian effectiveness in the context of a self-defense scenario

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where you want the action to stop and no further because anything beyond that might be irresponsible,

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unnecessary, create civil liability or criminal liability, all those things.

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Maybe you could talk about that a little bit too.

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Sure.

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So you, people conflate the idea of lethality, stopping power, combat effectiveness, all

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these things that are really militaristic for sure, but also possibly like law enforcement

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terminology and the mission of a civilian defender versus a law enforcement officer

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or agent versus a military person is three completely different missions.

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So you know, the military's job is to, you know, essentially destroy an objective and

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break things largely.

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I mean, I know it was never in the military, so I can't, you know, be any more specific

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than that, but it's a different mission than civilians.

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And then as far as law enforcement, I have done that, you know, and that is essentially,

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you know, either deterring or pursuing someone who is thought to have committed a crime and

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then physically seizing that person, whether that's with hands-on capability or, you know,

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in the eyes of the law using lethal force against a suspect is also regarded as a seizure.

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You're seizing that person.

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So for the civilian, none of those things apply.

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That's not our job.

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You know, your job, my job is we're supposed to go home at the end of the day or anything

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that precludes us from doing that.

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That's, you know, done of course in a threatening manner.

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That's what we concern ourselves with.

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So the most likely scenarios that civilians find themselves in are, you know, related

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to being a victim of some kind of assault or robbery or sexual assault, you know, which

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also counts as assault.

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So those are the, and then of course things like road rage incidents are fairly common

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these days too, unfortunately.

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So those are the most common things that a civilian is faced with.

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And in any of those situations, your goal as the defender is to make the person that

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is trying to impose their will upon you, stop what they're doing and go away.

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So a lot of those cases, and I'm talking like the estimates are somewhere between, you know,

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50,000 to more than a million times a year result in, you know, somebody walks up to

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you in a parking lot and says, Hey buddy, stick them up and give me your wallet.

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And then you reach into your pocket and pull out your 38 and say, no.

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And then they go, Oh, Hey, my car is running.

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I got to go.

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And they, you know, turn 180 degrees and they take off.

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And that's the whole defensive gun use.

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Like it's over with all the way up to, you know, somebody sticks a gun in your face and

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you're like, okay, okay, okay.

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And you feign compliance and then a gun comes into play or, you know, a carjacking the list

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goes on and on as far as scenarios.

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But the whole mission for the civilian is to force a break in contact and be, and be

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able to get away.

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And to that point, do you think that, well, let's, let's cut to the core of the controversial

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side of this.

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I mean, a lot of people are thinking, yeah, great.

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What you said is good, but I need stopping power in order to achieve that.

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And I ain't getting that.

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I'm not stopping the fight with the 22.

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Now your background as, I mean, you have a scientific and the law enforcement and EMT

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background.

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Um, and I imagine that you look at things through the lens of objective reality and

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evidence.

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What evidence do you have that supports the idea that subcaliber guns?

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And I'm not challenging you.

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I'm just asking that subcaliber guns are effective.

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Is it just the binary of gun versus no gun?

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Is it that simple or are they effective?

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00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:16,680
Yeah, it can be.

228
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Yeah, they are effective.

229
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And here's the thing that, that a lot of people get twisted.

230
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They know they'll look at gel results and clear gel results and think that they're indicative

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of something that they're not necessarily, that they not necessarily are.

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So all, you know, to quote Dr. Gary Roberts, you know, all pistol bullets do is poke holes.

233
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It doesn't matter if it's a 22, which pokes a small hole or a nine millimeter, which pokes

234
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an intermediate size hole or a 44 magnum or a 44 special that pokes a larger diameter

235
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hole.

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All pistol bullets, um, when fired through handgun rounds, um, are, you know, relatively

237
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poke holes.

238
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When you get into rifle caliber bullets, you know, like things that are moving faster than,

239
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:10,600
you know, 2100, 2200 feet per second or so, then there's a change in the dynamics there

240
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as far as how human tissue responds to that animal tissue of any kind, really.

241
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:24,480
So when you are using a pistol of any kind, the premier thing that you need to concern

242
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,760
yourself with is shot placement.

243
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:33,560
It's kind of weird to have people think that, you know, a dentist does a lot of things with

244
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:34,560
trauma.

245
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,560
But when I was working as a professor at a school, you know, there were attached to a

246
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teaching hospital that's in an urban area of a large city and anything that came in

247
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to the emergency room, you know, the body is broken up by real estate essentially.

248
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So you know, certain damage or issues with a certain part of the body go to certain types

249
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of specialists.

250
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So anything that was from the floor of the orbits, you know, the base of the eyeballs

251
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to the Adam's apple in the neck fell into the category of oral maxillofacial surgery

252
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and hospital dentistry.

253
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So anybody that was, that was, you know, shot, stabbed, crushed, stomped, um, in that area

254
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ends up falling into us.

255
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:28,720
So we saw, uh, sub caliber wounds to the face pretty regularly.

256
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:34,720
Um, because a lot, just like, you know, a lot of us choose to carry these sub caliber

257
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:35,720
guns.

258
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:41,640
So do a lot of people who are, you know, working about the world with criminal intent because

259
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they're small, they're easy to hide.

260
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They're, you know, all of the reasons that we like to use them, they like to use them

261
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too.

262
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But that goes both ways.

263
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So obviously we don't see people in the hospital service that expire before they arrive at

264
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the hospital.

265
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:03,600
Um, so there are people that are shot with sub caliber wounds that we never see because

266
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they're dead.

267
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:12,040
And I did see, you know, several cases of that when I worked on, you know, the ambulance

268
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:18,440
and in law enforcement, but it is, you know, we saw a good number of people, um, on our

269
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,560
service during my time there that, um, had been shot, you know, somewhere between the

270
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:31,440
floor of the orbits and the Adam's apple with 22s, 25s, 32s, three eighties, 38s.

271
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Um, and you know, while they weren't necessarily, uh, you know, I mean, they weren't obviously

272
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,800
killed, they were still alive for us to be able to treat them.

273
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I wouldn't say that they were in awesome condition and most of them, you know, you have pretty

274
00:20:45,980 --> 00:20:49,880
good rapport with them, even the ones that are, uh, you know, there because they're now

275
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guests of the, uh, state.

276
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:59,440
Um, they are also pretty honest with us, you know, they, I mean, I think a lot of them

277
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are kind of lonely and they just want somebody to talk to.

278
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,600
So they would be pretty honest about like what was going on when that happened.

279
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And you know, if you've ever the criminal element before, they'll often tell you, you

280
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,760
know, fairly honestly.

281
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,000
And there was a number of people that we saw that, you know, when they realized that they

282
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,460
had been shot, it did make them have an immediate change in what they had been doing previous

283
00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:23,840
to them being shot.

284
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,080
So you know, call that a psychological stop.

285
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,840
Um, a few of these people, you know, lost a good amount of blood.

286
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:36,080
So there was a hematologic or a hemorrhagic factor to it.

287
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:42,720
So there was some substantial blood loss, but you know, in, in very few of these cases,

288
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,760
that, uh, we saw in, in, even in cases I saw where they were not sub caliber wounds, where

289
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:48,920
they were large caliber wounds.

290
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,560
Like I've treated people before that were shot with nine millimeters, people that were

291
00:21:52,560 --> 00:22:00,240
shot with 45s and the damage while it was different, it was essentially like Dr. Robert

292
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,520
says it's just drilling holes in people.

293
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:10,720
So it just depends on where the hole is and what it hits as it passes through, um, as

294
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,360
to the physical damage that is done.

295
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:17,520
And while a lot of these people, I guess you would say that they had, you know, physical

296
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,960
deformities after that, or they were, you could tell that something had traumatic had

297
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,560
happened to them.

298
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:29,640
Um, with rare exception, were they disabled permanently?

299
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,040
Like to the point where, uh, I can think of a couple where people, you know, were shot

300
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,040
like in the eyes.

301
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:41,000
Um, so obviously, you know, eyeballs that are made out of mostly fluid don't do well

302
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,960
when a high speed projectile passes through them.

303
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:53,440
Um, so, you know, I've seen enough of those firsthand to not feel like carrying even a

304
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,520
22, um, you know, with effective ammunition in it is unsubstantial.

305
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,080
Yeah, I was just, I was just going to say, I mean, cause basically in the defensive situation,

306
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,800
you know, we're not military, we're not police.

307
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:11,280
Uh, you want to get them to change their attitude if they're doing something bad.

308
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:17,000
And it seems like, uh, almost anybody, at least if you're not, uh, under the influence

309
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,920
of drugs or alcohol or both, uh, if you get shot, even if it's a relatively minor thing,

310
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:29,280
it's going to be a pretty good indicator that I think for most people, most sane people

311
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,400
that they're going to change whatever they were doing so they don't continue to get shot

312
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,400
or get worse or pass away or they're going to stop and probably hopefully leave and walk

313
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,080
away, which is really what you're trying to accomplish anyway.

314
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,240
If you have to, but there's, but there's, there's people now yelling at their, at their

315
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:53,400
radio or phone or whatever they're listening to our podcast on saying, but, but, but, and

316
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,400
it's because these people are insane or they are on drugs or something like that.

317
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,200
I mean, Dr. House, you, you once recalled, uh, I mean, to quote a quote that you were

318
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:08,100
quoting, um, Claude Warner, that the tactical professor, um, that about roughly a third,

319
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:14,400
he said 34% in cases of people being shot with a 22, which by the way, is a great argument

320
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,520
for frugal, right?

321
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,200
Because what could be cheaper than 22?

322
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,600
Um, but about, but a third of the people died instantly.

323
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:26,360
Now, I mean, I imagine that as calibers go up, the number goes up, but it sounds to me

324
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,200
like you're intimating that not necessarily it's not linear in other words.

325
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,560
Uh, and shot placement has a lot more to do with it.

326
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:39,200
And maybe what you've experienced in terms of seeing people with facial injuries from

327
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,280
small calibers is that perhaps people are more proficient with small calibers because

328
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,920
they don't anticipate recoil as much, or they have perhaps practiced with it or something

329
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,840
like that, that allows them, or, or maybe going, if you were to give someone advice,

330
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,920
would you be able to say that, um, get proficient with the small caliber gun because proficiency

331
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:01,480
matters more than caliber?

332
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:02,480
Yeah.

333
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,680
I mean, you know, if you have the means to be able to carry, you know, a full size or

334
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:13,000
a compact size service pistol, I mean, why wouldn't you, you know, like they're easier

335
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,320
to shoot there.

336
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,840
They're more ergonomic.

337
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,900
You know, we have things now like the SIG macro and the XL type series where you have

338
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:28,640
a gun that has almost the capacity, uh, or, you know, like a macro has the capacity of

339
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,520
a Glock 17, but it's 70% the size of the gun.

340
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:33,760
You know, it's one inch thick.

341
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:39,680
It's markedly smaller than a Glock 17, but you know, I'm six foot four and, and, you

342
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,240
know, 260 pounds.

343
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:48,280
Like I can hide a Glock 17 on my body if I want to, you know, someone who is a 105 pound

344
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,880
female or 115 pound female, it doesn't have that same luxury, you know, unless they have

345
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,760
to say hide it in a handbag or something like that.

346
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,880
It's not going to be something that they're able to keep on their body.

347
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:07,640
But when you talk about that same size frame person being able to hide, you know, a P365

348
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:14,800
XL or smaller gun on them, and that allows them to have some capability, then obviously

349
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,920
that would be a better thing.

350
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:22,520
I think that it still boils down to accuracy though, and shot placement, you know, like

351
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:29,440
I don't care if people carry, you know, a Beretta Bobcat with eight rounds of federal

352
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:35,560
punch in it, or if somebody carries, you know, a Sig fuse with 22 round magazines in it.

353
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:45,320
Like if you're able to shoot those and, and have a, a respectable level of accuracy, then

354
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,760
that's where you really need to focus at.

355
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,260
So you know, I think a pretty good benchmark for that is like the five by five by five.

356
00:26:54,260 --> 00:27:02,080
So a five inch circle at five yards and being able to place five shots into that circle

357
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,200
is a good barometer of performance.

358
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,200
I take it one degree smaller than that.

359
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:18,400
I shoot it regular Las Vegas sized playing cards and do five rounds into the card in

360
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,440
five seconds from five yards off the draw.

361
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,960
So if I have a pistol that I'm evaluating, I think that last article, Craig, that you

362
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,160
mentioned about the preoccupation with the inconsequential increments, I think I did

363
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,880
put a picture of a playing card up there, but I can't remember if I did or not.

364
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,400
But anyway, that's how I test a pistol.

365
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,680
Like, you know, is this red dot like relatively zeroed?

366
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,680
Does it shoot to the sites?

367
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:51,000
If the gun's just an iron sight gun, are the sites, you know, decipherable enough under

368
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,680
mixed lighting conditions that I can pick up that level of accuracy.

369
00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,480
If I, if I can hit a playing card at five yards, five times in five seconds or less

370
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,440
from the draw, I feel like I can worry about other things at that point.

371
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:13,920
And to your point, sir, actually that, that preoccupation with incremental, no, inconsequential

372
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:14,920
increments, right?

373
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,900
Attributed to, I believe Jeff Cooper.

374
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:24,680
That particular statement kind of resonates really well into, into a segue of this podcast.

375
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,680
Let's be honest, this podcast is listened to by people who are 2A and gun advocates.

376
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,360
Most people who carry aren't going to be listening to this podcast because they're not that

377
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:38,960
invested and therefore they're not interested in the, well, I have a better red dot than

378
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,880
you or I have suppressor height sites and you don't or whatever the case might be.

379
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,960
How many people that you've encountered, because it looks like, sounds like you've encountered

380
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,920
a number of them were trained.

381
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,400
I mean, beyond maybe the legal requirement to carry in their state and maybe not even

382
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,440
that because they're constitutional carry or they're criminals and they didn't care

383
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,560
and they didn't train at all.

384
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:07,140
Well I'd say in the, in the training circles that I run and obviously like the majority

385
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:10,720
of those people are either already trained or they're there getting their first training,

386
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,880
you know, in the places that I've worked as an instructor.

387
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:21,520
But you know, in the general shooting world, you know, there's probably 10,000 people in

388
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:28,440
the whole country that train on a regular basis, like actually seek out, you know, training

389
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,160
where they're, you know, paying somebody to teach them something that they don't know.

390
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,880
So it's a pretty small community and I've kind of tested that hypothesis by, you know,

391
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,960
I lived in Tennessee for almost 20 years and taught for, you know, one of the major training

392
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,920
brands there tactical response.

393
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:53,840
And it didn't matter if I was there or if I was in Shehalis, Washington, I'd run into

394
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,540
some of the same people.

395
00:29:55,540 --> 00:30:00,920
So you know, or going up the East Coast, you'd run into the same people or down into Florida,

396
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:07,840
you'd run into the same people like there's very few people that are the heavy civilian

397
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,320
centric hobbyists slash.

398
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,800
I don't mean hobbyist is a pejorative.

399
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,160
I mean, I consider myself a hobbyist, you know, that the train to that level, like where

400
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,960
they're taking, you know, one or more paid classes a year.

401
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,560
Yeah, I agree.

402
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,960
Because I mean, we are frugal firearms and most people don't have the financial wherewithal

403
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,400
to be able to do that.

404
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:40,480
So you get a certain amount of training, obviously, oftentimes initially from family members and

405
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:47,720
friends and yes, I think Craig's taken far more formal training than I have ever had

406
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:48,720
the opportunity to.

407
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:55,160
But again, I don't have quite the financial resources to be able to do it.

408
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,520
But that doesn't mean it can be bad.

409
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:02,640
I mean, one of the things that we did, we had on here a couple episodes back was the

410
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:11,320
Mantis X10, which was a way of doing effectively dry fire practicing in your house without

411
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:17,120
having to pay a range fee, which can be 25 bucks or 40 bucks depends on where you go.

412
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,640
Plus, you know, boxes of ammunition and you want to put at least 100, maybe 200 grams

413
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,520
down range every time you go to the range if you can, and on caliber and so forth.

414
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:28,520
And that adds up.

415
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,560
And for some people, it's prohibitive, can't be done.

416
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,520
That's why I really like that Mantis X10 system for practicing at home.

417
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:37,760
Yeah, yeah.

418
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,880
Yeah, I mean, you know, the merits of dry fire, like whether you're using an electronic

419
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:49,800
system or whether you're using, you know, just a safe backstop and snap caps or, you

420
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,960
know, if it's a center fire pistol, just, you know, simply hand cycling it or using

421
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,440
like a dry fire mag.

422
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:04,920
You know, the benefits of dry fire, especially on first shot and manipulations is, you know,

423
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,760
goes without saying it's important.

424
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,520
Yeah, they always say that it's what, two to three rounds as your typical defensive

425
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:18,080
firearms, less than five seconds and like less than three or less rounds, I believe

426
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,280
the statistic anyway.

427
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:26,560
Yeah, they always used to say, you know, like three rounds, three seconds within three yards.

428
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,040
And I, you know, I don't know if that's like something that's based in fact, or if it's

429
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:38,160
something that's just been kind of, you know, twisted into an idea over time.

430
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,840
But I mean, that's not a, that's not a ridiculous standard to hold yourself to.

431
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:51,280
Do you think Dr. House that there's a certain percentage of our community and by our community,

432
00:32:51,280 --> 00:33:00,040
I'm probably talking more about people who work at gun stores or at gun ranges who disenfranchise

433
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:07,240
new young or maybe disabled or less able shooters because it's like, well, if it's not a nine

434
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,560
millimeter, then you know, why are you bothering?

435
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:18,440
And that then essentially not literally, but effectively disarms people who should otherwise

436
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:25,480
I mean, I think I have a buddy here that I shoot with pretty regularly and he's a fantastic

437
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,880
instructor named Rick Remington.

438
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:34,040
And he teaches here at the Skagit shooting range in Burlington, Washington.

439
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:42,200
And he has had people come through his class that are, you know, differently abled and

440
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,300
or physically infirm or elderly or have severe arthritis.

441
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:52,360
And he's gotten them set up with, you know, like a Glock 44 in 22 caliber.

442
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,940
It's the size of a Glock 19.

443
00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:59,500
So it's, you know, essentially a compact size service pistol in 22.

444
00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:04,160
You can put any other Glock sites on it so you can put high visibility sites on it.

445
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,880
I think for this particular person, he put a set of excess big dots on it.

446
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:17,120
And then I believe he had them loading it with either federal punch or CCI mini mag.

447
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:22,200
And both of those are, you know, the punches is more expensive, but CCI mini mag is ubiquitous.

448
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,720
I mean, you can buy that at any Walmart coast to coast and you can even buy it at some truck

449
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:27,720
stops.

450
00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:33,560
So, you know, for that person to be able to, you know, shoot to the five by five by five

451
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:40,400
standard and do it comfortably, like without it being a chore for them.

452
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:46,840
I mean, I think that that person's just as capable as someone with that exact same pistol,

453
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,960
but in nine millimeter in the Glock version with, you know, a 10 round magazine.

454
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,440
Like I don't think that there's any discernible difference you're going to see even necessarily

455
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,040
in performance.

456
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,960
I appreciate you mentioning some of those various models.

457
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:09,760
Sadly, being here on the left coast in the state of California, we have a very limited

458
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,640
register of things that are available to us.

459
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,680
And it was only until very recently that they started adding some more things on it, but

460
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,280
we went 12, I think it was 12 years without a new version of a fire, any type of a handgun

461
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,560
being added to the register.

462
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:30,480
And I think the only reason Glock makes Gen threes, Gen three Glock's feel brand new is

463
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,160
because of the California market.

464
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,160
Oh yeah.

465
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,160
Yeah.

466
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,160
Yeah.

467
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,880
I mean, I think that they're probably also pretty common for overseas sales.

468
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,960
I feel like Glock, Gen three Glock 19s are pretty ubiquitous throughout the world.

469
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,760
So, so Dr. House, you're, you've been consistent on message since the first time I heard you,

470
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,680
which I indicated was around a decade ago.

471
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,400
And I thought I'd just ask this question.

472
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:03,680
I think that you, like I'm an engineer and, and you're, you're in the medical field.

473
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:09,960
So we both view things through an objective lens, but I imagine you have absorbed a lot

474
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:16,760
of grief from people over the years for, for your, your perspectives on, on sub caliber

475
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:23,320
as maybe not the go-to cause you didn't say that, but as a viable alternative for self

476
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,320
defenses.

477
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:25,320
Am I reading that?

478
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,320
Yeah.

479
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,380
I mean, I, you know, I've, I've gotten pushback on those kinds of things, but I think that

480
00:36:31,380 --> 00:36:37,960
a lot of it, you know, even if you find somebody who's a real hardcore advocate for, you know,

481
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,760
carrying a full size or, you know, a compact size service pistol and two spare magazines

482
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:49,440
and such, you know, like as if you're kidding up, you know, in the capacity of a domestic

483
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:56,520
law enforcement officer, I think that very few of them would argue with performance.

484
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:02,760
So what I mean by that is if I'm like, okay, well that's great, but this person is also

485
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:09,260
capable of this level of accuracy within these time constraints with this sub caliber less

486
00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:14,520
than optimal in your eyes pistol that's utterly reliable.

487
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,520
What's the problem?

488
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:21,040
You know, like to each their own, you know, ultimately the choice of what people carry

489
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:22,240
is, is up to them.

490
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:26,340
You know, it's like, I'm not going to get on here and tell you Craig, or you can like

491
00:37:26,340 --> 00:37:31,040
what kind of underwear you should be wearing, you know, like I don't care.

492
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,280
It has zero effect on my life.

493
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,480
Just like your choice in what you choose to EDC has zero effect on my life.

494
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,960
You know, it's ultimately something that only affects that person.

495
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,240
And you could say like, well, yeah, but it also affects the people that you carry or

496
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,520
that you are responsible for.

497
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:57,480
Well, that's sort of true, but think of it from the flip side, like, so, you know, I'm

498
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:04,880
a big guy if I'm carrying a five inch M and P with 20 round magazines in it.

499
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,680
And I have, you know, a weapon mounted light and an optic attached to it, just like the

500
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,920
kind that I, you know, that's the pistol that I carried, like, you know, for law enforcement

501
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:15,920
duty.

502
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:23,520
So if I give that gun to my significant other and expect, you know, a hundred and twelve

503
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,680
pound woman to be able to wield that same almost three pound pistol with all the crap

504
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,600
hanging off of it that I do with the plume with that same level of accuracy.

505
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,520
Am I really being honest with myself?

506
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:43,960
If this is a pool weapon that we're all supposed to be able to use, you know, I don't know.

507
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,120
Conversely, like if somebody said, well, you know, you're doing your family a disservice

508
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,320
by carrying a sub caliber pistol.

509
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,320
I don't know.

510
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,720
I just don't, I just don't really buy that.

511
00:38:52,720 --> 00:39:00,640
I mean, I think that if you are someone who is acutely aware of your surroundings and

512
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:08,120
what goes on, you don't necessarily need to make up for it with, you know, equipment.

513
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,280
I think you can do a lot with, with quite a little.

514
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,920
And I, you know, like you were saying, Craig, about the engineering thing, like I always

515
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:20,400
used to joke and tell people that I went to the Angus MacGyver school of dentistry because

516
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,080
the school that I went to was, you know, chronically underfunded.

517
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,720
We didn't have state of the art equipment, but we were trained in such a way that we

518
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:37,720
could go, you know, anywhere and do good work with just a modicum of a very simple low technology

519
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:39,720
tools.

520
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:43,720
And that served me really well when I got out into the rural world and went to work

521
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:49,440
in prisons, you know, like where I'm working on correctional patients only with the simplest

522
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,900
of tools, but still being able to be a hundred percent effective in my job.

523
00:39:53,900 --> 00:40:01,480
And then same thing with my time, you know, working as a contractor for the national guard,

524
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,540
providing dental services to deploying troops through all of that.

525
00:40:06,540 --> 00:40:11,760
I had really simple gear, gear that was state of the art 40 years ago.

526
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:18,040
And I was still able to provide, you know, very good care to all of these groups of people.

527
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:24,040
I think that that mindset carries over to defensive tactics as well.

528
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,240
You don't need the latest greatest thing.

529
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,060
Like yes, technology is great.

530
00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:30,800
If you have the means, you should avail yourself of it.

531
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,720
But if you don't, it doesn't mean that you have to go sit somewhere and cry, you know,

532
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:43,120
like for example, like I really enjoy, you know, the history behind certain pistols and

533
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,440
there's like pistols that I think, you know, to myself, like if I ever see this at a local

534
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,000
gun shop, you know, in the use case or something, it's something I'm going to get.

535
00:40:51,000 --> 00:41:00,080
Well, when I was a cadet, the sergeant that I worked for, he was, you know, had just an

536
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,240
impressive gun collection back in the day.

537
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:10,640
And recently he asked me if I'd be interested in purchasing a Smith and Wesson Model 39-2

538
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:11,640
that he had.

539
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,580
And I was like, the 39-2, of course I want the gun that was, you know, that was the very

540
00:41:16,580 --> 00:41:24,000
first widely issued police semi-automatic pistol ever, you know, to the Illinois state

541
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,000
police.

542
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,920
So I was like, yeah, of course I want it.

543
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,920
And then of course, you know, guys in our generation, you remember the coolest guy in

544
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,040
film and TV that carried that was of course, Colonel Hannibal Smith from the A-Team.

545
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,680
So I got that.

546
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,080
So I bought that gun.

547
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:47,320
I put period correct wood grips on it and I took it to the range and shot it with standard

548
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,520
pressure nine millimeter ammo.

549
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,600
And I probably shot, oh, I don't know, about 200 rounds through it.

550
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,480
Love it when a plan comes together.

551
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:56,480
Exactly.

552
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,640
And I was like, you know, if I had no other defensive pistol other than this thing, it's

553
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,440
flat, you know, it's an alloy frame.

554
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,340
It carries very easily.

555
00:42:07,340 --> 00:42:08,340
It's well balanced.

556
00:42:08,340 --> 00:42:14,120
I mean, yeah, it holds eight rounds in the magazine and of course one round in the chamber,

557
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:19,600
but you know, it's double action, single action, you know, traditional pistol.

558
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:27,000
And if that's what I had to use for self-defense purposes, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep

559
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,000
over it.

560
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:34,800
Like, yeah, it has old, you know, fixed or sorry, adjustable rear like K38 type rear

561
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,520
sight and then, you know, a big Smith and Wesson type blade on the front side that is

562
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:41,960
integral with the slide.

563
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,320
But I put a couple, you know, I degreased it, put a couple coats of white fingernail

564
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,380
polish and then orange fingernail polish over the top of it.

565
00:42:51,380 --> 00:42:56,960
And I can see it clearly in, you know, any of the lighting conditions that most civilians

566
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,960
would encounter.

567
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,040
Yeah, it doesn't have a provision for a weapon mounted light, but I think that weapon mounted

568
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,360
lights for civilians are really overrated.

569
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:06,360
Yeah.

570
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,360
Honestly.

571
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:13,000
One of the guns that I'm going to point out a specific one here, which I've recommended

572
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:19,480
to a person who I know is only going to have one firearm in their entire life.

573
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:25,360
And it happens to be an LCR, a light compact revolver from Ruger.

574
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:33,800
And I recommended a particular caliber, which is the new 327 Federal caliber, which is,

575
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:39,720
does very well from a high, they say it's almost the equivalent to like a 38 plus P

576
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:44,560
or even a mildly loaded 357 ballistically.

577
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,840
But the reason why I suggested is number one is a six shot revolver instead of the typical

578
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,820
five for the LCR.

579
00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:59,080
But as this person ages and gets older, they can step down from a 327, if they don't want

580
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:04,800
to shoot that down to the 32 H&R Magnum, if they wanted to use that, or step it back down

581
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:11,920
to the 32 Smith and Wesson Long, which is a very mild shooting and very old cartridge,

582
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,600
very accurate, still produced today.

583
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,520
And if you couldn't even handle that, you could step it all the way down to, I think

584
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,360
it's a 32 short.

585
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,280
All of those fit in the exact same, those four calibers fit in that one revolver.

586
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,760
And I recommended this as a revolver.

587
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,560
You don't think about it too much and practice with it.

588
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,600
It's got power from the top all the way to the bottom and it's one gun for your whole

589
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:35,600
life.

590
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,760
And that for me, it's frugal for that woman.

591
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,640
You forgot one caliber though, Ken, that it'll also shoot.

592
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,120
Oh, which one?

593
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,120
32 ACP.

594
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,240
Oh, because it's a semi rimmed.

595
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,400
32 ACP is semi rimmed.

596
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,400
That's correct.

597
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,400
Yeah.

598
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:57,840
I have an LCR 327 and I also have a SP 101 327.

599
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,440
And I'm a big fan of Ruger products.

600
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:06,480
I know that they've gotten a lot of grief over the years, but my first handgun that

601
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:12,680
I ever owned was a Ruger standard, like pre-mark one that I inherited from my grandfather in

602
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:13,720
22.

603
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:25,360
And that was the gun that I used as my only handgun until I was able to purchase a service

604
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,280
sized pistol once I started in uniform service.

605
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:36,680
So I think that there's a lot of wisdom in that, having a gun that is, and I mean, I'm

606
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:44,840
an able bodied 50 year old man and I shoot 32 Smith and Wesson long and 32 Smith and

607
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Wesson short.

608
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,080
I've shot the federal mags out of it and I've shot the H&R mags out of it.

609
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:55,600
And I prefer to shoot 32 Smith and Wesson long, wide cutters out of it.

610
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,400
So Dr. House, do you think that, I mean, that said, actually I didn't know that that gun

611
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,220
would carry that many different calibers.

612
00:46:04,220 --> 00:46:05,880
So I just learned something.

613
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,320
Do you think that the equipment and equipment by the way can mean rounds?

614
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:18,080
And you mentioned like, for example, the punch route, are things improving in ways that make

615
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:26,040
sub caliber choice as a primary or perhaps only defensive weapon more valid over time

616
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,040
than it used to be?

617
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,360
I mean, much as you'd say that, you know, the nine millimeter when they finally did

618
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,720
something other than FMJ became a lot more viable is the same thing essentially working

619
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:39,720
its way down the caliber.

620
00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:44,580
Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, for a long time, 22 performance ammunition was either

621
00:46:44,580 --> 00:46:52,200
made to be very quiet, you know, like for suppressed use, it was made to be very accurate

622
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,640
for competition use.

623
00:46:54,640 --> 00:47:00,680
You know, like I'm talking like, you know, one whole groups at 10 yard kind of accuracy,

624
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,760
you know, with 22s, if you have a match grade 22.

625
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:11,400
And then, you know, rounds that are suitable for for small hunting, small critter hunting,

626
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,040
you know, squirrels and rodents and what have you.

627
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:22,600
So now we have performance based ammunition that is specifically targeted towards the

628
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,600
self defense community and things like the punch.

629
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:33,160
So the punch is essentially almost a 22 watt cutter, and it cuts like a very small, relatively

630
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:38,840
straight hole, because it's got, you know, a meat platter on the front of it that that

631
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,640
allows it to have almost the cutting edge instead of something that just pushes tissue

632
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,620
out of the way it actually punches a hole.

633
00:47:44,620 --> 00:47:51,640
So if you place it in the right spot, anatomically, it will do what it's supposed to do.

634
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:57,000
So yeah, I think it's it's one of those things where maybe people have realized the utility

635
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:04,920
and like, hey, if we have a small, you know, 22 that is like the Glock 44, like the new

636
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:11,760
Taurus products where, you know, it's essentially a compact size service pistol range gun, you

637
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:18,640
know, that is relatively high capacity, works reliably, and has usable sights on it that

638
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,280
people can, you know, achieve good results on it.

639
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:22,480
That's, that's the big thing.

640
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:28,600
You know, if you have an old Beretta Bobcat that's got that semi, you know, half moon

641
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,400
front sight on it, you know, where, and then just a little tiny notch that's cut into the

642
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,040
back of the slide, like those are very hard to use.

643
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:42,760
But if you have, you know, like I have a Smith and Wesson model 20 or 20 M&P 22 compact,

644
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:49,120
you know, that is basically a full size M&P that you put in the dryer for too long, you

645
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:56,160
know, it's about 60% the size of a full size M&P pistol, but it's utterly reliable with

646
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,840
any 22s that I've shot through it.

647
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,240
And it works great.

648
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:04,820
I wouldn't have, you know, any concerns like you were saying, Ken, about that being my

649
00:49:04,820 --> 00:49:06,320
old man gun.

650
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:11,960
And if you really wanted to like make it super old man gun, you could put a, you know, like

651
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,960
a silencer co sparrow on it.

652
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,440
And it, you know, if you shoot ammunition that is, you know, most 22 ammunition, that's

653
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:26,560
not, you know, like stingers or as we call them in Tennessee, Steiners, then, then it's

654
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,600
going to be like ridiculously quiet.

655
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,600
Yes.

656
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,840
And we live sadly, Greg and I, and not a free state.

657
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,040
So we're not allowed to have safety equipment that would protect our ears.

658
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,040
Yeah.

659
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:46,080
So that's, that's, that's one of the things about Washington state is odd.

660
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,720
You know, you can basically have like nothing else, including like a, you know, they have

661
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:55,360
like some restrictions on folding knives and stuff, but like, you can actually buy a can

662
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,240
here relatively easily.

663
00:49:57,240 --> 00:50:01,600
So maybe because they want the, you know, the tax stamp money or something like that.

664
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,880
Could be the background on that.

665
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,840
So another kind of circling back to the, to the start of the conversation a little bit,

666
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,400
you talked about your background as an EMT as a proportion.

667
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:19,920
And I'm, I'm leading with the assumption that you're going to agree with my idea that training

668
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:27,680
beyond what's necessary to get your license or whatever is still a valid use of your money.

669
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:32,560
And in fact, frugal in the longterm, because all the money you'll save, particularly carry

670
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,760
insurance.

671
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:39,480
But how often have you come across situations that required medical attention that could

672
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:46,040
have used some training in opposition to how many times have you thought that you would

673
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,800
wish you had more training in firearms?

674
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,920
And I'm imagining that it's a big proportion toward medical and people don't get that very

675
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,360
much at all.

676
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:04,440
You know, you asked me in the, in the questions before about my use of things, you know, and

677
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:10,240
I've, I've, yeah, I've been in defensive gun uses before, but like that's happened, you

678
00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:12,240
know, a handful of times.

679
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:16,760
And those were work related with a couple of exceptions.

680
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:22,160
One exception was interdicting an active shooter.

681
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:31,300
But the majority of the things that I've dealt with before CPR, AED use, you know, an automated

682
00:51:31,300 --> 00:51:37,960
external defibrillator, the Heimlich maneuver, rescue breathing and controlling life threatening

683
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,000
bleeding were literally things that like save people's lives.

684
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:49,120
Oh, I also have to add on Narcan Narcan music just because of the amount of opiates that

685
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,640
are out floating around in the streets now is unprecedented.

686
00:51:52,640 --> 00:52:01,940
But those skills, I think are more important than, you know, high level defensive gun use

687
00:52:01,940 --> 00:52:02,940
type skills.

688
00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:03,940
Yeah.

689
00:52:03,940 --> 00:52:07,720
And I think that it just, it just isn't, I mean, maybe it's hard to have a fun podcast

690
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:08,720
about it.

691
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:09,720
Nobody wants to do it.

692
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:15,040
I mean, like, you know, I've taught hundreds of those types of classes, you know, but the

693
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:20,240
only time that those classes are really, I don't know, for lack of a better term, hot

694
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:24,520
is right after a major mass casualty incident.

695
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,240
So I taught a whole bunch right after, you know, the Route 91 harvest festival shooting

696
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,600
in Las Vegas back in 17.

697
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:37,880
I think that was, you know, when there's a school shooting, people get real interested

698
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,040
in that kinds of thing.

699
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:45,400
But you know, I can't tell you how many classes for like my hemorrhage arrest course that

700
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:50,640
I put on the books and nobody signs up because there's like no urgency.

701
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,440
There's no ego service that really happens in medical training classes.

702
00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:03,080
You know, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but you know, people in shooting

703
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:10,160
classes, you know, they get to work towards the performance goal of, you know, being the

704
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:15,520
best shooter on the line or they get some, you know, as Brian Eastridge calls them, like

705
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,720
a range Pokemon, you know, they get like a challenge coin or, you know, some kind of

706
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:28,520
thing as, or a patch as a recognition of their performance, you know, in medical training,

707
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,960
like congratulations, like hopefully your child or your loved one doesn't have to bleed

708
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:39,280
out in front of you when they get, you know, hit by a propeller strike while you're out

709
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:45,640
water skiing, you know, like relatively simple and innocuous things.

710
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:55,400
And I have had several students, I can't tell you the exact number because, you know, it's

711
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:00,400
not something that I record in my resume, but you know, I've had a number of students

712
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:09,480
have defensive gun uses or, you know, actual shootings and or gunfights that they've been,

713
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:16,920
you know, the victors of. So I know that what I've taught works. I've also had far more

714
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:23,280
people like call me sometimes and be like, dude, while I was driving home from the class

715
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:29,680
that you taught, I happened upon a car accident where someone's arm went through the closed

716
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:36,960
pass or the closed driver's side, side window. And they had, you know, a severe radial artery

717
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:43,080
laceration that was squirting, you know, three feet out of their arm when I walked upon them.

718
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:48,040
And if I hadn't just taken your class on how to fix that, I probably would have watched

719
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:53,280
that person weed out because it took 15 or 20 minutes for the volunteer fire department

720
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:59,520
to get there. So it's like, good job, you know, like I've had students in the past that

721
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:06,040
work as range safety officers at places where people have had self-inflicted, you know,

722
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:12,560
not self-inflicted accidental gunshot wounds, you know, from a from a negligent discharge

723
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,520
where they've had to treat them at the scene until the fire department gets there. So these

724
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:23,920
things happen and they happen with staunch regularity. I mean, unfortunately, you know,

725
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:31,400
I was at a conference last year where one of the attendees suffered a cardiac event

726
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:41,200
while we were there and me and a few other, you know, medical and first responder professionals

727
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:48,680
worked on that guy, you know, with CPR and AED skills. So that, you know, there's there's

728
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,000
nobody that's safe from that kind of stuff. I always tell people that when, when they

729
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:57,320
take that class, they are essentially like, you know, I call it like adult scouting, you

730
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,360
know, like, and I mean, like, in terms of like Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts,

731
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,600
like you're becoming a better citizen of the world because of the knowledge that you have

732
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:11,120
because there's been, I can't even tell you that, I mean, I've probably done CPR at this

733
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,800
point in my life, both in a professional and off duty capacity, like more than a thousand

734
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:25,160
times. And, and I've happened to pawn like hundreds of car accidents to this point, you

735
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:30,360
know, driving coast to coast. And, you know, there's times where I'm like, you know, I

736
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:36,080
drive up and I look, and then I, you know, see the dust or I see blood. And then I just

737
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:41,480
think like, you know, I've got, you know, places to be and things to do and people to

738
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:46,080
see but then I think like, I might buy the only person for, you know, 25 minutes and

739
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:53,100
25 miles that knows what the heck to do here. So I better do it. You know, luckily people

740
00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:58,800
give me grace if I'm trying to make a deadline or something. So that's, I think that that,

741
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,040
yeah, that's a valid reason to be late saving someone's life and you get, and you get to

742
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,200
sleep at night. It's always kind of convincing when you, you know, when you show up at a

743
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:13,640
place with, you know, well, James Yeager always used to tease me and, you know, God rest

744
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,640
his soul. He always used to say, you know, you've never had a normal job in your life

745
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:23,040
where you don't go home with other people's blood on you at the end of the day. And I'd

746
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:29,160
say, yeah, I guess you're right. You know, even now your son will experience that at

747
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:34,240
some point, Craig, I have a lot of messy days where I'm supposed to go meet my family for

748
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:39,280
dinner after work. And I say, hang on, I got to run home, change my shirt and wipe and

749
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:45,840
wash my face. So, Hey, as we, as we finish out here, uh, with, with our last few minutes,

750
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,880
you got any, I mean, it sounds like you're already kind of touched on it, but you got

751
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:54,900
any funny, entertaining, weird stories that you've never told before, or you just love

752
00:57:54,900 --> 00:57:56,480
telling that you want people to,

753
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:03,200
Yeah. I, I would say, um, well, this is kind of like self-referential. So forgive me for

754
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:11,440
that, but I wrote an article on my website. This is, you know, at least a decade ago.

755
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:20,600
And I talked about a case that I treated where a guy who was somehow tangential to the narcotics

756
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:28,760
importation business, we'll call it, um, took a contact shot from a 45 caliber pistol right

757
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:34,040
to his face, right to his right maxilla. So if you, you know, for the people at home,

758
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:39,840
if you touch the bottom of your right eyelid and then bring your finger down about an inch

759
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:46,000
and a half, kind of like where your cheekbone is most proudest. Um, the bullet went in there,

760
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:53,920
it hit the back of his maxillary sinus turned straight down, went through his maxillary

761
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:59,960
sinus punched out two teeth that are, you know, attached to the base of your skull,

762
00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:05,000
which he either spit out or swallowed along with a pretty good size piece of his upper

763
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:13,240
jaw. Uh, the part that we call the tuberosity. And then it went down into his mandible, kind

764
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:19,560
of did another loop, did he loop and skidded all the way across his mouth and then lodged

765
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:26,440
itself in front of the hinge of his jaw joint. So when he came to me, this was an acute injury.

766
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:32,880
So it was kind of, you know, crusted over at this point. Uh, there was a 230 grain federal

767
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:38,240
hydro shock, which is, you know, as you guys both know, that's a long standing, you know,

768
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:44,680
like with 30 year history of, of solid performance, nobody's going to say, don't give me, you

769
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:50,920
know, a Glock 21 with 14 rounds of 230 grain hydro shocks in it. That's not going to kill

770
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:56,560
a thing. Uh, no one would say that. No one with, with an ounce of sense would say that,

771
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:03,120
but this guy took one to the face at contact distance. It instantly made him lose consciousness.

772
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:10,400
And then he woke up bleeding, uh, severely five minutes later. And then he promptly left

773
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:19,240
the country and came to the United States. So, uh, by bus. So made the trip. His first

774
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:26,680
action was to leave his country by bus. When you got to go, you got to go. So, I mean,

775
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:30,800
that's what he, that's what he told me too. I mean, the actual story of that, I mean,

776
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:36,120
for all I know, he could have been shot down the street from my office in Nashville. Uh,

777
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:41,760
but you know, who, who's to say, I don't know. I mean, you know, I was working in the doctor

778
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,800
capacity and not the law enforcement capacity at that point. So it didn't really make a

779
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:51,400
difference to me. But, um, so I wrote, you know, uh, a little writeup about it and, you

780
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:57,240
know, people said like, you know, this guy was, uh, you know, hurt so little by this

781
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:02,680
45 caliber round that, um, you know, shot to his face that the first thing he did was

782
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:07,880
go to a dentist. Well, I mean, that's kind of a simplistic view of it. This guy's complaint

783
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:14,740
was is when I take drinks of water, it comes out my nose and it did because he had a communication

784
01:01:14,740 --> 01:01:20,040
between his mouth and his skull and that he couldn't open his mouth because he felt like

785
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:25,040
something was, you know, forcing it closed. And you know, there was a bullet that was

786
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:30,800
lodged into his jawbone, which was basically acting like a wheel chock, you know, preventing

787
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:35,960
it from opening. But I think people kind of missed the point because, you know, that,

788
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,480
that particular round, I don't know what like the percent effectiveness is. And I don't

789
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:45,560
really know if that's an accurate, uh, metric to apply to different rounds because there's

790
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:51,400
just so many variables involved. And, you know, like I said, kind of the base of my

791
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:58,960
thesis is that if you place rounds accurately, you know, I've been to murders and or homicides

792
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:05,680
before that were accomplished with a 0.177 caliber air gun pellet, you know, so if you

793
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:12,320
put a pellet into somebody's heart or put a pellet through somebody's eye and it goes

794
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:19,240
into their brainstem, you know, that's shows out like shows over lights out, like that's

795
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:25,760
it. So the, the whole point in this 45 caliber people are like, this is a massive failure

796
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,400
of this projectile and somebody send this to federal and all this kind of stuff. And

797
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:34,520
I said, you know, like from a civilian perspective, no, it's an absolute win. I mean, the guy

798
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:40,160
had an instantaneous loss of consciousness. So let's like take these, the same, you know,

799
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:48,240
this same story and change it around. So let's say, um, me and Craig and Ken decide we're

800
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:53,400
going to go over to round table pizza after this podcast and have a couple of slices and

801
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:59,520
some brewskis before we call it a night, right? So we get in my truck, we head down there,

802
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:05,760
have some pizza, uh, not brewskis, uh, we're having some diet cokes and, um, and so we

803
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:10,340
have some diet cokes and some pizza slices. We go back out to my truck and as we're walking

804
01:03:10,340 --> 01:03:17,100
out to the truck, a dude pops out with a knife and you know, gets within two arms distances

805
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:25,800
of me and says, pal, give me your F and wallet. And I draw my pistol, let's say a Smith and

806
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:33,640
Wesson 4506 for nostalgia sake and, um, blast this guy right in the right cheekbone with

807
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:40,360
a 230 grain HydroShock and he's down and he's out for the count. And then I say, Craig,

808
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:45,940
Ken, holy smokes, let's get out of here. We jump in the truck. We drive two blocks away

809
01:03:45,940 --> 01:03:50,360
across the street, call law enforcement, tell them that there's been a shooting that were

810
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:56,680
safely staged in an area and we're watching the guy from, uh, 200 feet away across the

811
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:03,560
street and he's still laying there. Um, what do you think boys mission accomplished? Like

812
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:09,720
we're going, we're, we're all, maybe I might go to jail for a time until they have the

813
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,880
state does its job and hammers out the details, but you guys, you might have to take a ride

814
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:21,780
to the police station too, to tell what you've seen, but that guy's not robbing us anymore.

815
01:04:21,780 --> 01:04:26,680
So it's not a failure. It's not a failure to stop. Like it's not a failure of performance.

816
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:31,680
It did exactly what it did because all handgun rounds do is drill a hole. It just matters

817
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:35,040
where you place the hole. So that's all there is to it.

818
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:40,960
I like that story, but I'll, I'll tell you that, um, I would probably have to spend maybe

819
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,560
the time waiting for the police traffic, the taste of diet Coke out of my mouth. And I'd

820
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:50,000
probably go get a beer in order to do it. So give our listeners, uh, any contact information,

821
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:56,620
any upcoming articles you have events that you're going to be a civilian defender.com

822
01:04:56,620 --> 01:05:02,800
is the best way I'm not a social media guy. Like, especially in this political season

823
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:07,440
that we're in, I've just sort of sworn off all social media and taken it off of my phone

824
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:14,840
because I find it endlessly just aggravating. And, um, anything that I'm doing or have upcoming,

825
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:21,280
um, is on civilian defender.com. So I put up all my podcast appearances there. Um, I

826
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:27,360
put up, um, any articles that I think, or any ideas that I have that I think are salient

827
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:29,200
or interesting for people to listen to.

828
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:34,040
Excellent. All right. Dr. House has been a very much of a pleasure listening to you and

829
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:38,160
interacting. So I'm so glad you were able to join us tonight. Thank you. Thank you for

830
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:39,800
having me. I appreciate it.

831
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:46,560
So Ken, that was, I think, an outstanding discussion with Dr. Sherman house on the validity

832
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:55,600
really of using sub caliber firearms as maybe not your go-to choice, but as a viable alternative

833
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,320
and certainly a better alternative than having nothing. Right?

834
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:04,800
Absolutely. Um, there have been many, many examples that I have studied over the years

835
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:12,280
about using sub caliber firearms in successfully to defend oneself, one's family. Uh, I know

836
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:20,000
the Israelis use them on their LL aircraft, uh, their, their version of their sky marshals.

837
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:25,240
So it can be done. It can be done effectively. Um, so it's nothing to be seen as that again,

838
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:29,400
the best gun to have is the gun that you have with you. And if that happens to be a sub

839
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,880
caliber, nothing wrong with that at all.

840
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,640
Yeah. And the biggest caliber in the world won't do any good if you can't wear it and

841
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:37,200
you leave it at home. Right?

842
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:42,440
Absolutely true. One, one last thing I'd like to say is we are here in election season here,

843
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:49,480
the end of October, uh, 2024, we only got a couple, a few weeks left. I would highly

844
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:53,640
encourage everybody who's a, if you're not registered to vote, go out and register right

845
01:06:53,640 --> 01:07:00,520
away. Uh, and if you are, then I would encourage you very much to go to the polls and to vote,

846
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:05,760
uh, for your second, second amendment rights in defending those. And there's really only

847
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,320
one solution to that.

848
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:13,200
Even though, even though we're not a political show, but, uh, but we are, but we are talking

849
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:17,920
about absolutely really preservation of your freedom because if you don't preserve it,

850
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:18,920
you're going to lose it.

851
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:24,920
So, and how many, I mean, there's so many gun owners who either don't vote or aren't

852
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:25,920
even registered.

853
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:30,040
Right. Because they are frustrated and they believe they've been abandoned. Well, the

854
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:35,720
worst thing you can possibly do is to, is to give up your vote, uh, thinking it's not

855
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:41,800
worth anything. It is absolutely worth everything. It's worth not only your freedom, but my freedom

856
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:48,160
and that of our, of our progeny and the kids and grandkids and so forth. So go out and

857
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:49,160
vote.

858
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:53,480
Yeah. It happened. It happened in this County where, where we turned in a lot, where the

859
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:58,720
gun owners turned an election for sheriff. So yes, it does work. Absolutely.

860
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:04,440
So please do go out and vote and bring two, three, four, five of your friends and get

861
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:06,480
them out there voting too.

862
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:13,820
Or don't complain to us or anyone else if you don't. Right. And you lose. So what else

863
01:08:13,820 --> 01:08:19,640
do we want people to do? We want people to like comment, subscribe, send us emails, comments,

864
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:25,520
questions, topics for shows. And that can be done at frugal firearms podcast, all one

865
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:33,560
word at gmail.com. Uh, you'll also find us on Facebook and X formally Twitter and other

866
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:37,560
social media like Instagram, where we make periodic posts when it seems to make sense

867
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,580
to do so. Please hit the like button on those things because it helps the, the aggregators

868
01:08:42,580 --> 01:08:47,800
and the formulas figure out that we are actually are popular people. And thanks to our new

869
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:54,840
listeners and far away places like Belarus and Singapore and parts of the world that,

870
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:59,740
that we're reaching that we never reached before. Any last, uh, saved rounds as they

871
01:08:59,740 --> 01:09:00,740
say can

872
01:09:00,740 --> 01:09:05,040
No, uh, pretty much. Thank you all for coming in and we hope to hear you here again.

873
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:22,760
Exactly. Good night folks.