I thought they were gonna do the same thing. They're like nah, we see so many handguns. It's like it's
It's like regular stuff. Oh, I know. Yeah, you leave California and nobody cared exactly
Welcome to the long-awaited episode 9 episode 9 of the frugal firearms podcast
Podcast designed to help you get the most for your money in all the shooting sports industries
I'm here again at this time in studio with my co-host Ken Ken say hello to our listeners
Hello listeners
I appreciate you guys dialing in and listening to hear us talk a little bit about trying to get the most value for your dollar
And the shooting sports. So why the heck did we spend so much time not recording?
I mean, it's been the better part of a year
Honestly, there has been a lot going on in both our lives. Yeah for both of us
I I don't think I've necessarily mentioned it before but I work for the Navy and needs of the Navy
I'm not in the Navy, but I work for the Navy and and when they say needs of the Navy it means something and
you end up just being busier than you want to be and
And and yeah, and another another thing listeners is we have a whole stack of cards. I'm here
I'll give you the sound effect that
That's my bag of
business cards from the shot show of potential guests that were coming up on but as of
As of this moment, none of them are committed to doing the the show at least on a specific schedule
So there's that as well. So today is a little bit. I wouldn't call it a restart
maybe it's a reboot of the show and
We're just gonna talk between Ken and I no guests today about various things
and I think we're gonna kick off with a discussion about the shot show which I went to and
the NRA show
Recently in Dallas that Ken went to yep
So Ken tell tell listeners about if they haven't been to NRA before why would they want to go to NRA?
What why is that a good idea? Well this particular year?
There was a lot of people there for the fact that Trump showed up Trump was at NRA
This in Dallas a few weeks ago, and there were a lot of people who showed up to see him. So
But even if if Trump were not there, it's a tremendous opportunity to go see the manufacturers
virtually all of the major manufacturers are there and
You're able to talk to them and they have pretty much samples of all of their
New firearms and you can go through it hold them talk to the salespeople the developers
You know even some of the machinists in some of the places
It's it's a it's a miniature version of the shot show well how miniature is it?
I mean it you know because we talked about if you don't know listeners shot shows an industry show
It's not a yeah, it's not a public show
So you have to be credentialed to get in and it tends to be a grind
It cannot be seen in one day. No it is a massive show
Yeah shot show in Las Vegas, Nevada is in January every year, and it is a massive show
You will walk until your feet hurt for several days. I set a record this year
I did at least to the extent that my iPhone is able to accurately
Replicate how far you walk, and I I've never checked that accuracy it says I cleared 25 miles
I wouldn't doubt that 25 miles which is astounding in two and a half days, so yeah, it's it's a
You better have good shoes and yeah, and I skipped lunch
I show up when they open and I leave when they kick me out yeah, and and it took two and a half days to do it
Yeah, everybody is that shot and it's an amazing show and you can go to just particular areas
And spend time in particular areas of the show the fun thing about shot as well is I know we're about frugal firearms
But sometimes it can be really fun to go see half million dollar
Shotgun set you know Parazi is there for example, and they have some it's artwork
Yes, it's a firearm or multiple firearms, but the engraver who engraved those shotguns
Probably took a year to two years to engrave one shotgun
Why hand the other thing that it does too? I mean again and and tell me to the extent that NRA
facilitates this or does not that at the shot show since
Basically everyone's there all the manufacturers are there
you're able to walk from booth a to booth B and
compare like you know this thing that has a
$1,700 price tag versus the $700 price tag item and
Which one do you like better and does it make sense? I mean you can't shoot obviously right the show
So you don't get that part of it, but even for accessories and things like that it allows direct comparisons now
Does NRA do the same thing for you and already does the same thing one thing more about shot?
There is a for certain particularly a small number of people
I think you have to be in in a print publication or something like that. They actually do have a
Shooting day media media day. Yeah, you're in the media like you're on TV or something like that
They'll actually take you out to and live fire. They have live fire machine guns live fire trap shooting live fire
all the new guns and
for media if you happen to be
Have the credentials for that
That's even more phenomenal
and if you don't kind of Google around on the YouTube or whatever and look for
Shot show media day and take a look at some of the really fun things that they get to see and do
Something like that at the NRA show in terms of I mean is there a media day or a range day or something like that?
To be honest with you, I didn't look into it that much. Well it's in Dallas, it's in the city
So it's in Dallas in the city. Probably at the Dallas Pistol Club. I mean did you? No I didn't look into it frankly
When I went I drove to get there took me two days to get there
This is dedication listeners because he drove from Southern, California to Dallas
Yeah, it's about 1300 miles. I would have flown just
I
Drove um, I like to drive. It's a lot of fun. I like to fly. Mm-hmm
There you go. The fun thing about driving in Texas is the price of gas was two dollars and seventy three cents a gallon
That is which is a good two dollars a gallon cheaper than it is in Southern, California
Yeah, easily two dollars a gallon would you have if you were carrying?
Anything there would you have been reluctant to?
Fly just because of that. I mean if you ever
I I have I have traveled with them
It's a little bit. It's always a little dicey when you travel with firearm
And on airfare because you don't totally trust that that your bag even as well marks as it may be
With an air tag inside it is and do not travel without putting an air tag inside of your
Inside your case because you want to know they do lose things all the time
But I went to tac-con this year and and tac-con was at the Dallas Pistol Club and I did have to
You know bring guns because it it is training the way they do it is they take your gun of course
From you they walked as at least this is in San Diego
They walk you down to where TSA inspects baggage not
Individual carry-on but where they inspect baggage
But they don't let you in and they've given you what they refer to as a peppermint tag
Which is green and white striped and then they go in look at and they come back and tell you you're good to go
You're not good to go and they came back and said good to go on the other end in Dallas
The gun does not go to the regular carousel
It goes to the special handling like for oversized luggage
Hmm, and then it comes out and there's a little blue light that flashes just like a police car basically right
Above and when they bring the thing out then they know that they have a secure package
And then they check your ID against the the the package and as long as they match you're good and honestly
I thought god this is gonna suck and it didn't suck at all and it I kind of appreciated actually the extra layer of security
Yeah
Checking the gun in at Dallas could come back to San Diego. I thought they were gonna do the same thing
They're like nah, we see so many hand. It's like it's
It's like regular stuff. Oh, I know. Yeah, you need California and nobody cared
Exactly. I mean I still had to check it but but as far as any go wait for outside the TSA desk
They're like nah, you're good. Right? Okay
It's a totally different vibe in different parts of the country and how they how people perceive firearms
so the NRA show them was
public for
Everybody or only for members. No, you had to be a member
I think you could join if you want to it was free for members now. I'm more than a life member
I mean, I've been a life member for are you endowment? I'm endowment. I'm endowment member. Yeah
Yeah, so the nice thing about that was I mean I've been a life member for probably what almost 40 years not quite
Maybe I don't remember. Yeah
35 40 years probably 40 years
Anyway, and you continue to give money hell I have I have payroll deduction
still going off to to certain shooting sports at NRA and
So what would you say? I'm gonna interrupt you again. Yeah, what would you say to people who think that really firearms Policy Coalition or
or
Goa sure or something like that is a better organization and they a
Lot of people have a problem with the NRA either because of Wayne LaPierre or just in general and they yes NRA
Isn't really doesn't really have our back or
Right. I would sadly have to agree with them
Wayne LaPierre is leaving or has left
so
And I have known
Well met Wayne. I mean we both met Wayne. Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did up in Orange County, Orange County. Yeah, we did. Yeah
And had an opportunity to talk to him. It is his time to go if not that she should have already left and our a has not
Been at the front lines of really defending the firearm sports as much as they should be
Definitely Second Amendment Foundation much better firearms Policy Coalition much better
Here in San Diego County San Diego
gun owners
Much better, California Rifle and Pistol Association
There are a Second Amendment Foundation. There are a whole host of ones there
Those are the organizations who are stepping up to the to take the legal fight to the court system
particularly after Heller 2008 Heller decision and of course the 2022
New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus Bruin
and get those things
Done and if you want to know more about that, there were some excellent excellent YouTube
People to take a look at and you think I can mention a couple of them
Yeah, yeah, definitely we endorse all kinds of different things. Absolutely the two I would recommend
Actually, I'll give you three
That I would recommend listening to I listen to him pretty much every single day
That's the armed scholar. He's out of San Bernardino, California
He focuses obviously on California
But he does the whole the whole country talk about all the legal things going in the whole country and and he's a lawyer himself
And he gives you a pretty good pretty good understanding what's happening. Then there's one out of Washington State
What is the Washington?
Gun it's William Kirk of the Washington
gun
Darn it. I can't remember
William Kirk Washington can find it. I think I think I think it's Washington gun law
Okay is what it is
But if you want to really understand the Supreme Court if you really want to understand how the legal system works
And how the justices are going to vote on why they do certain things
There is no one better than the four boxes diner with
Mark W Smith who is a United State. He's an attorney a member of United States a
Supreme Court
bar
He is a best-selling author. He's written about five or six books
The most recent one I just finished called Israel disarmed. It's an action of that book
I didn't know the name of the author. Yeah mark W Smith. He is phenomenal
Now he is going to explain to you the law
So you are literally and he'll tell you this you will be the smartest person in the room
You'll be smarter than a legal professor who thinks they know. Oh, well, you can't do that
Yeah, you can or he'll will explain to you why something is the way it is. What's the historical behind it?
He is the guy who if you really really want to understand the law and have an appreciation for the law and the
brilliance of our founding fathers in
in writing the constitution and particularly the Second Amendment and how
Important that is to us today
Mark W Smith the four boxes diner. Well, is the four boxes diner a
Gun centric show absolutely. So all of this is so you mentioned that okay, so it's not it's just second
No, okay. It's 100% Second Amendment stuff. Although he will talk about for example
He will talk about a fishing case that's happening off the coast of Newfoundland right now
Well, why because it has to do with a legal precedent?
That's about to be overturned and when it does get overturned how it will impact the Second Amendment
Everything comes back to be to how it affects the Second Amendment
So he may talk about a different case a different thing and he'll tell you why this other case that's seems to be
Nothing to do with the Second Amendment is going to be extremely important to us
As a legal precedent and will be quoted and cited going forward. So maybe that's a
I don't know if you know having his own podcast if he wants to appear in other podcasts
Sometimes they do sometimes they don't well, he might be someone to bring on our pod
Well, we could we could we could ask him. He's trying to get to a hundred and fifty thousand subscribers right now
Okay
And I highly recommend going to the four boxes diner
And taking a look at the things that he's done in the past and things he does literally every day
That's that's a number and this is a video video. Yeah, you can listen to him
I mean you can listen to him, but he basically the video is just watching him talk
Well, sometimes the you lose context on video podcasts if you're just trying to listen to them because they're talking about
You know some item they're holding and everyone has the yeah the context of what they can see and if you're just listening you
You can't join in really no. No, I mean he will for example when he reads the second amendment
Decisions or something like what a court decision will be he'll put the text of it up on the screen
And then he'll read through it so you can actually read the text as he's reading it
Himself and and under and describing it to you why it's important. So going back to the nra show
Yes, would you wreck now, you know understanding that there there are two different animals for two different animals
Was it worth the time and distance and cost and oh, yeah, I mean
Cost was things like hotels. Yeah. Yeah, yes and everything else
I I well, yeah, plus I enjoy driving and I'd like to see different parts of the country
So I'll give you a quick quick thing if you've never driven across the United States
I mean it's from coast to coast put it on your bucket list because
The United States is a massively huge country with massive amounts of open spaces
And absolutely beautiful and I would highly recommend everyone do at least once in their life drive across the country if not
Go, I agree. Maybe we have a difference in opinions on what car you should use for that
My word that's outside the boundaries of this podcast. Indeed. Yeah, in fact, I'm about to say
Arizona and I'll probably have a much more comfortable time than you would have but yeah anyway, uh, that's a separate topic
So yeah, then that is every so they move around the nra show, right? They do
It's been in loving states. Yeah, we've been I think it's been in Reno, Nevada. It's been in Houston, Texas
Florida, I think it was in Atlanta. Yeah
Right and I've never well we went to one back in the 80s once. Yeah, we went I don't remember where it was but it was a long damn
Long time ago. Yeah, where nra is i'm sorry shot show is more reliably a vegas thing plus it's only five and a half hours away from us
Or less you could do it in less come on now
I mean in five and a half hours if you stop or run into traffic
Or drive the speed limit. Yeah, no one including the police drives the speed limit
I was following a chp the other day who was I was having trouble keeping up with him at 80
And he was not running lights and sirens. He was just cruising with traffic and he was north of 80
And and I will tell you this I drove 7 000 miles from southern california to new england and back again
In the last five weeks and I can tell you this I saw maybe two police cars in 7 000 miles on the side of the road
With with radar two oh with radar with radar you mean you don't mean totally no no no we saw actually setting traps
Yeah, who are actually setting traps maybe two and that was not in california that was not in california
Yeah, right. Yeah, california's got a different route. Yeah, and I think that's the only thing that's
I mean it doesn't mean that they don't ever enforce the law but it seems to be selective and infrequent
Right kind of thing. So, okay. So what well you know what that kind of brings up topic number two
Which was both of these shows are good for comparing things. Absolutely. So we have a comparison of two things
Um that are sitting right on the table in front of us and as an audio-only podcast of course dear listeners
You can't compare the two of them. So we have a comparison of two things
Audio-only podcast of course dear listeners you cannot see it but we'll describe it one being
Both of them are 1911s both of them are 1911 one is a california compliant rock island and it's a relatively
New purchase looking at shots showed all the things that I could find in terms of value
I thought that it was the best overall value came with an msrp of 7.99 street price was a little bit less than that
Very good trigger and and you could talk all you want about does it have mem parts in it
And it's metal injection molding. Yes metal injection molding. In other words, it's not 100% forged
But then again, you're not paying the price for 100% forged now
Okay, so we'll talk about that for a second
The engineer in me says i'd like to have forged but the engineer in me also says that some parts that are low stress parts
Don't really need to be forged. So now which parts are mem and which parts are forged?
I actually don't know so I can't say whether they got the recipe right in this gun
But the slide is is nice and tight on the rails
Everything is quite crisp. The the trigger is particularly good. And what are we comparing that to my my son's my oldest son's
newly acquired Springfield Armory trp. So what are your observations on the trp ken?
Well, even before we get to that I might want to just comment on on the fact that you have the mem parts
Okay, which are less expensive to produce. Yeah
Inside a firearm and pretty much any firearm
I mean look at the Glock
We have polymer handguns everywhere. They're obviously not metal
And they're obviously polymer is obviously less less strong
But as long as all the strength exists in the areas that need the strength the barrel the bolt whatever it might be
You're fine. If it's elsewhere on the firearm if it's on some movable part the trigger shoe
A button here or there and it's a metal injected molded part. It shouldn't be a problem. It's totally fine
Yeah, shouldn't be totally fine because you don't need a forged part for that. And and you know what to the point?
I the smith and wesson m&p series they came out with a metal framed version
I might be in the minority. I didn't like it. I didn't think it felt right to me the I I would
Dollar, I mean even for free
I held it at the show. I did not think it was a better gun. No, I actually not as good
Yeah, I actually held it at the show. I know I forgot the model number the
CSP I remember I have to look it up. But I but I mean just ergonomically and just the way the thing felt it didn't feel right
Right. I mean it's because I like glocks
True and i'm used to the balance on being on top of the gun instead of through the body
True. I held it and I actually liked it. Okay, and the other thing I liked about it is yeah
I mean I do have polymer guns
You know and and polymer guns have been around since the 80s
Uh, yeah, I think uh the late 80s of first glocks 87 or something like that
Yeah, the release of the glock 17 was 87 about 80. I don't remember 86 but something really
Yeah, mid 80s. Um, and I I guess I look at the glock and I go yeah
These are polymer frames and stuff, but will my great-grandchild be able to fire that?
I don't know is a is a polymer frame going to become more brittle in in a hundred years. I don't know
Maybe it will I had a glock mag fail the polymer failed. Yeah failed because it just split open
It just split open right so part of me kind of likes the all-metal guns
I'm not saying you know, I mean for carry and stuff like that
Uh, I I get the the ergonomics of and the lightweight stuff
Of a polymer gun and I have lots of polymer guns
but you know what if I want to hand something on to my my
Child my grandchild my great-grandchild my great-great-grandchild who say this belonged to you know, peppy whatever back and you know
Hopefully they'll still have rights. Well, let's hope they do
I mean, but uh, but an all an all-metal firearm would I think would it you know, you can dig this thing
Dig one up in a in an egyptian tomb 2 000 years. It'll probably be fine. You dig a glock up 2 000 years from now
You'll probably disintegrate. Yeah, probably the the plastics kind of disintegrate, you know, I don't know that'd be the case
But but that's just that's just kind of me. So I do have a little bit of a uh,
I'm not buying guns for three generations down the road. I'm buying them
No, but i'm trying to think about me. Well, maybe one generation down the road
Oh, yeah one generation, but I want to make sure I hand on the freedom that i've been given when I was born
That I hand that on in full and it's in its totality to the next generation. Well totality for you is a lot
but
Um, the rights the rights that we have received the rights that we received. Okay, so let's let's let's compare and contrast
so the
trp comes in sure at
Almost a thousand dollars more exactly the rock island, right?
These are both 1911 pattern firearms and they are both excellent
Ergonomically, I mean the 1911 being now
113 years old. I don't know the number but I mean just like I don't know when the flock was first introduced
I don't I certainly don't know that. Yeah, so I think it's the pattern is a hundred browning fans will will probably yelling at the
At their radios right now. It's called the 1911 because they came out. Yeah, it came out in 1911
The design obviously predates that. Yeah. Yeah. No, he had a 1903 and an even earlier designs that were similar to it
but I mean basically this pattern has been out for
well over a hundred years and
There's a reason for that. I mean ergonomically
He amazingly got it right really got it right. So you're saying you don't like the Glock grip angle?
Um, it's it's interesting 22 degrees versus 18 degrees, um, which is basically the difference between them, right?
Uh, I can adapt to either one. Yeah, I don't have I don't maybe I don't this could be like
analogous to a food that you just don't have the palate to understand the difference between the two and to be able to discern the
Difference between right foods to me. I adjust to both of them equally. Yeah
You go instantly. I don't really have a problem with the 22 degree grip angle on the Glock, right?
I mean and I have some with radically different grip angles
I mean I I bought a paint sprayer gun one time and one of the average I think it was uh,
I think it was a De Vilbis or a sharp or somebody who made it and one of their things was it has the same grip angle
As a 45
1911 45 that was a sales point that was that was a sales point
Wow, you know and that grip angle is is incredibly popular actually, you know the ruger
2245 which I happen to have which is a 22 target pistol with many of the same ergonomics
You know basically duplicates this 45
this 1911 45 acp
grip angle and it's
Super popular and I can understand why I mean it's been around for 100 years and people love it
I also have other guns
Which have radically different grip angles?
And i'm thinking of some of the high standard
Olympic pistols that I have right a lot of those are very steep angles because the idea is that you
By cocking your wrist downward you lock your hand exactly and it actually immobilizes essentially immobilizes your wrist
Yeah, which isn't a bad thing. No, no and that's for a for a target pistol particularly
That's what it's its design is for but for a combat pistol
Which this one is the 1911 pattern was designed as the combat pistol the ultimate combat pistol
And it basically stayed with the united state military for about 70 years
Until the 80s when it was replaced with the unfortunately m9 my opinion the beretta 92
I i'm not a beretta fan. Sorry. I'm just not at least that pattern of uh of gun
Um and now replaced by the sig right when everyone thought it was going to be the glock and it ended up being the sig
That was a big surprise. So okay. So tell me about tell me about the trp
What do you think about?
Like I guess if you like having skin
This gun is questionable because the 20 lpi
I believe is 20 lpi front strap checkering lines per inch checkering is
Aggressive to say the least that's one way to put it. Yeah, I mean you could grate cheese on this
Absolutely, you could create. Yeah, you could actually file metal other metal objects. You probably could
Yeah
Which makes it to me?
What is it jerry mitchellick, uh, he's he's an advocate of smooth grip handguns all I don't really
At the expense of disrespecting
A person who has been around firearms and has a name in firearms that I could never even consider having I don't really
Personally agree with that perspective, but I guess there's room for personal preference. Sure
um
These g10 scales on this trp are
uber aggressive uber aggressive they're like they're vz grips basically if you've ever
Listeners if you I mean vz grips make some great grips, but oh my god. Some of them are super super aggressive
Yeah to squeeze this super tightly. It is literally painful because those those uh stipples are digging into your hands so much
Um now is that what would you notice in a stressful situation? Absolutely not definitely not
No, you don't people think oh in a defend your life situation
Are you going to uh, you know feel the recoil or hear the report of the of the round?
You don't you don't hear either neither when your body dumps a half a quarter an adrenaline into your blood system
You don't hear it. You don't feel it. Yep. You will act the way you have been trained
And uh, will you even see the front sight? Will you see your sights at all?
I mean really yeah, those are interesting questions fruit will and and and you know
Probably you could talk to john korea about this and get a better
Answer or or at least a statistically valid, you know or or empirical answer
But a lot of people don't even see their front sights, right?
It's almost instinctual
Yeah, because survival is instinctual sure and in most survival situations is going to be very close range
Right and actually at taccon, uh, that's perhaps
Maybe a topic for a different show. Sure
but at taccon one of the classes I took had to do with
You know kind of how good is good enough in terms of shooting accuracy now
It's interesting that there was one class that was
Sort of like it's hard to miss basically if you think about index shooting
And and how much you worry about your front sights and so on
and another class, uh, which was um
Related to three-dimensional aspects of shooting and by that
I mean we were shooting at three-dimensional targets and saying well what happens if it's 45 degrees to you
What happens if it's 90 degrees to you?
Where do you want to place the shot in order to get a quick stop?
In that they talked very extensively about where the critical zones are
And and the necessity to get the first shots into those critical zones. There's differences of opinion. Oh, yeah
Now there are definitely different differences of opinion
But I mean going back to the overall thing about the trp
This is a very high quality firearm that has a lot of the features
That some of the hand-fitted
1911 models that are going to cost one or two thousand dollars more than this. I mean you can spend uh,
19 on a 1911 pattern
uh
Pistol you can spend four grand
But it's not as good as say well blackhawk
For one which is starts at about 3,500 or goes up quickly from there
Or in some other patterns the tern tacticals or things like that that are I mean, they're not 1911s
the dan wesson
Sure, which is really a 2011 pattern gun
Or some of the other guns like that, but they're also more expensive
I mean, I think the price point on this to have a gun that you know is kind of a semi
Custom gun. Yeah, this is a semi custom
You're going to get the amber dextrous safety left right safety. You're going to get the dovetail front rear sights
Which is nice. You can this one has built-in
Trijicon night sights or the radioactive night. It does have tritium sights tritium sights on it
But as I as I close the slide
on my ria
Which is the less expensive option a lot less expensive option and I would say that
the trigger on the trp was
Actually for me a little on the light side. I actually prefer a slightly heavier trigger
So that's just a preference thing both were about equally crisp
Uh the safety on the trp is a little bit better. Uh, just in terms of how crisply it engages and disengages
um this particular model the rock island comes with an extended slide release which
I think is mandatory. I don't
I think that the original slide release on the is actually terrible
Yeah, and the original 1911 just is too far away from your thumb if you're hitting with your offhand
That's fine
If you want to hit with your primary hand you have to reach around it
It just doesn't make sense to me and the weight on the trp is lower. Yeah, there could be a combination
Well, that's a four inch versus my five inch. That's part of it
But I think it could be maybe a difference in materials as well
But I will say a couple things about the about the 1911 that pretty much all of the best ones have
You can buy what's considered a government pattern 1911
Which means the ones that came out just like they did in 1911
Uh, and one of the things about that is the uh, the the grip safety on the back
On the back and uh the original government grip safeties to me are absolutely useless
Uh, they do function as a safety. You want the extended
What's called the extended beaver tail? Yes. Okay. What the extended beaver tail does is it it hooks upward
Around the back of the grip and it protects the uh, the hammer as it comes down
but more importantly than that
is particularly if you have uh
If you're one of the people who are uh, slightly rounder than other people like perhaps myself, uh, slightly rounder
slightly
I've enjoyed my my share of donuts and high caloric intake for far too long
But nonetheless, um because of that my hands when I wrap around a typical
Web of your hand government pattern you can't see this. Yeah government pattern 1911 with a standard government
Uh, you'd be pinching yourself. Well, not only pinching myself
I get slot what's called slide bite which means when the slide comes back
It will nick the top of the web of my of my hand between my forefinger and my thumb
And I will be bleeding well with the trp since you're gonna be bleeding on the palms of your hand and on
Second digit of three of your fingers because of the front checkering. Yeah now you can be bleeding more uniformly
Yeah, which you don't want to do just because you're shooting it. So in my opinion any
1911 pattern firearm should come with a an extended beaver tail now. They can be added. I've added them to mine
You can buy the part and oftentimes you have to round off the frame on the back itself
I had to grind off the rear of the my 1911 colt to do that
And basically hand fit it in in position
Uh, I have a colt commander
model series
80 I think it is series 80
Anyway, um, but yeah, if you're gonna buy a 1911 pattern firearm, I would definitely get a
the rounded beaver tail if for no other reason then the gun will be
fireable by
Normal sized people as well as those people who enjoy their donuts and their high color
Things who whose hands perhaps were a little uh chubbier than they should be pardon pardon the cough people
The
The other the other thing though that I think is is
Is neat about that gun is it does have and I know traditionalists don't care for this a whole heck of a lot
I like a rail on a 1911
Absolutely, and my rock island does not have a rail correct and by the rail
We're talking about under the barrel in front of the in front of the trigger guard
You have a picatinny rail or some sort of a rail there are slots with three slots
Some only have one slot, but there are like a glock will only have one slot and you can
The glock slot isn't even the same
Yeah, they have their own their glock they can do whatever they want they can design their own rather than use a picatinny
Why use industry standard when you can create your own? Yes, right. So but yeah
I like Apple by the way, and by the way listeners, I am an Apple fan. So I'm not criticizing Apple just noting something
I could criticize them, but we have a
Separate episode for that quite a bit, but no going back to the rail underneath the underneath the the barrel underneath the slide
I am definitely if you're gonna buy a new 1911 and you're not just buying it because it's a it's a classic
Pistol and you want the exact thing that looked like in World War two or World War one for that matter
I highly recommend buying
One of the manufacturers and there are a host of manufacturers that produce excellent quality pistols
But I would definitely pick one with a rail that comes on the bottom
The you bring up a case you bring up a question too
I mean
I just saw something about the CMP is currently not shipping any 45s because they have a government audit going on and it's put
Hold on all their shipments CMPC civilian marksmanship program. Yes, exactly
So you can purchase what at least used to be?
government surplus
stuff
They used to have and ones they still do now. Yeah, they do they have 45s
But there's there's two aspects to this their pricing
It used to be the idea was the civilian marksmanship program was to encourage marksmanship among civilians
Did you do so at a basically subsidized cost because the government were to surplus it didn't need anymore?
Their prices now don't make sense to me for a lot of things they don't I mean a lot of their classic rifles
For example, you can still get an M1 a rack grade M1
I know this is kind of outside our stuff
But like a rack grade means basically was run over by at least a tank if not, you know an IED hit
It was I mean it a lot of people who use it. It's been rebuilt a few times. It's functional. It will work
But yeah a rack grade rifle, which is a pretty much the lowest grade rifle. Yeah, it basically means yeah
It's it's it's there. It does function probably reliably
It's not a showpiece it's it's been carried and
What's the phrase? It's been ridden hard and put away wet, you know
I think that's that's a horse. That's a horse reference. Okay. I was gonna say this this is
Yeah, but I mean basically yeah, it's been beaten up pretty good because it's been used quite a bit anyway
But you can get those for like 700 bucks. But at this point in time
You'd probably do better. I mean a really nice condition M1
Grand
Will run you north of $1,500
and or something even higher
But I mean specific to that well the M1 is one thing because they're not made anymore
So there's not really a well that well, that's not really true. I think there is one a couple many factors expensive
I mean, there you are. And there's not a large market for them. No, my point being that the
The 1911 is so ubiquitous across a number of manufacturers that I'm not really sure that buying a
a piece from CMP in
Not worth it just because of the historical historical is a reason but now there's something else going on
Okay, which is when I was shot I was told by a representative from TISIS
Which makes great guns by the way, but they're Turkish Turkish. Yeah that they were going to be the new
manufacturer for CMP for
You know quote-unquote mil-spec guns
Hmm for traditional pattern guns. Oh interesting that we're going to sell new
TISIS guns Oh cool through CMP because I guess the government is they're running out there has run out or is running out sure
But why would I then?
I'm losing the I don't know on why would I want to go get a CMP gun anymore?
Well, I don't know we'll have to look at the prices
And the other thing is that CMP guns get mailed straight to your house. You don't feel through 44 73
I didn't are you sure yeah, I bought one along in all states
I think so pretty sure but we'd have to look into that
I don't know you go out of the website read about silly marketing program and figure out the latest
So this is homework for you
If you're interested in the CMP gun go take a look at the prices if you're interested in it
Go see how you qualify and then go see whether or not what Ken just said is correct. Yeah, I think in a lot of states
They mail it straight to your house, but which is kind of nice, but
Yeah, you have to check it out and again the reason to have it is to say here
I want a rifle that I know was in World War two. Yeah, but if it's a new TISIS
45 yeah, you're getting a nice 45 except it just came off the line
Turkey yeah, which may be fine Turkish guns are actually they make some great stuff
But it has no historical value other than being the same pattern
But it's the same reason to sit there and say you know I'd really like a Civil War
Black powder Brown best rifle or a revolutionary war Brown best okay an original one is gonna cost you a ton of money
Plus the steel probably wasn't that great back in the day, and you really want to fire it
Maybe not because it might blow up in your hands only because it's 150 200 years old or whatever or more
Mm-hmm, so there are there are reasons why you want to have
modern
metallurgy in
Classical firearms, and I have quite a few of them well. I mean as an engineer. I agree with this
Yeah, I mean, it's the strength of it on the theory that
Engineering capability gets better over time. It doesn't always get better
I mean look at look at a modern refrigerator versus an old refrigerator, right?
Yeah, you know there was a meme that like the old refrigerators
You know I will outlive you live your your children. I am time itself
You know they worked that well, and now the new ones well don't and now they don't
Maybe in terms of metallurgy perhaps yeah, it just depends on as a reenactor or something like that
You probably don't want to run around with a historical piece that might be quite valuable going back to men
I mean there was no men no back in the day because the technology to create it didn't exist and now you have additive
manufacturing right of 3d printing that
That's very very recently and that's going to take off
Tremendously where people are going to be making but they're gonna be printing home metal guns or home metal things
designs
Which are ever really do that because it wouldn't be legal right?
Yeah, no, I well according to the Constitution you have a right to make your own firearms at home
That is being litigated somewhat now a bit, but ultimately it's going to come down to wait a minute
They we have history tradition on our side people have been making their own guns in their garages are in their and their houses for
Centuries, but well before they found in the United States so the value proposition between the two which one do you take?
um I
Would absolutely if you if you couldn't shop the market and you had this Rock Island versus this
Springfield TRP while the TRP is a fine firearm
And it is a to me an absolute luxury item. I would absolutely
Take the Rock Island Armory
and take the thousand dollars that I saved and
Buy a bunch of ammunition a bunch of training a bunch of something else holsters
I mean all training training. I spent less than that difference going well
Not when you include the flights and hotel and car no, but if you just include the cost of entry
Multiple days attack on this year cost me less than that difference, but it doesn't mean there's not a place for it
I don't know no if you have the ability
And if if you know we're talking about this is frugal firearms, so we want you to have you know the best value frugal
Frugal right I mean the best value is without a doubt the the
1911 pattern from Rock Island Armory. It's a fine firearm. You know is it
Is the extra thousand dollars?
Worth it to step up to a really much nicer one I
Mean you definitely can and if you've got the means to do so if you are if a thousand dollars doesn't mean much to you
And you can do it. I mean maybe the answer is it depends. Yeah the answer technically is it depends if you have the means
I mean, I want people to buy expensive things and
And I want I very much want people to buy ridiculously expensive things
I mean the perfect example. I give people is
The flat panel TV sets remember when the flat panel TV sets hit the market there were
$10,000 for a plasma display TV that would burn in
Probably in two or three years, but somebody out there paid
Ten thousand dollars to buy them and then we had LED and Q led and O led and all the new technologies that have come
It's a commodity item. Yeah, I mean you can go in and buy a phenomenal television for like a hundred dollars
I mean you can probably get it for three hundred
That's right, but you never would have gotten there had somebody not stepped up and spent the ten thousand dollars to buy the flat panel
Very good point. That's a very good point. You never would have gotten there
So I want the people to buy the high-end expensive guns because yes
There are things that they can do and improve and make things better and ultimately those are going to filter down
To the people who are going to buy the expensive guns
Are going to filter down to the people who are the mainstream?
Joe's though with the working guys the the people who need a reliable and absolutely bet your life reliable handgun
But do not want to spend the extra thousand dollars or frankly can't spend that extra thousand dollars
They needed to feed their family, but they still want a reliable firearm the Rock Island
Absolutely a great idea go ahead and buy one of those
Not a problem at all or another pistol. I mean there are there are other choices
For for home defense that type of firearm or carry firearms
So what's another so going to the other end of the scale if you know you could carry that full-frame sure 45
Depending on how you dress depending on your size depending on whether you're an environment
That's either permissive or less permissive and by less permissive. We I do not mean illegal
That is not what I meant what I meant is where?
Carrying might put you in a bad light with the people that you regularly need to be around
I mean if you're not supposed to carry I'm not going to advocate that you're but should you have the right to carry? Yes
Am I going to advocate that you do something illegal? No, no, I'm not
But there but even within those two polar opposites
There's a gray area where carrying may or may not put you in a socially acceptable scenario
Sure with other people you're around so there's another gun here that we have to review
Mm-hmm
Probably something at the other end of the scale
This is a Ruger LCP
P max light compact pistol. Yeah, it's a 380
So does it have the quote stopping power?
No
Stopping power of a 45 and remember that stopping power in
handgun context is
Maybe an overused term
Will it stop the fight a lot of times it will is it comparable to a rifle?
It is not none of them are but is 380 enough with a well-placed shot to get the job done
Yes, it is. Yes. It is. Is this the right option for people?
well, if you're in that less permissive environment where
Yes, you can legally carry but at the same time
printing
Or even the appearance or the opportunity for how you dress around the gun is going to be problematic
Is this better than carrying nothing? I I would stipulate that it is. Oh, absolutely
It's wearing a Viridian light now not a laser when you think of Viridian most of their products green lasers. Yeah green laser
That's where they got the name, right? Yeah, but this is a Viridian
reactor
RTL light so why would I want the light on the gun? Why is that a good idea? Well the idea being that if this is
Largely going to be used in a low light scenario, which is likely likely that
This light when pulled from its specialized holster turns on
Right. There's there is a power switch
You can you can change the motor turn it on or off
But it's actually recessed in a way that makes it kind of difficult to get to so
The basic concept is that pull the gun out light comes on put the gun away light goes off
very simple very reliable uses a magnetic switch on the inside and
What does that do for you?
It helps you in low light situations to have positive ID of the target
It allows you to ensure that they are in fact a threat
It allows you to see other peripheral things that you may not otherwise be focused on
Or have the ability to see and it puts you I believe and remember this is not a legal show
I don't play a lawyer on TV as Ken has found of saying
So this is not legal advice, but I believe that it puts you in a better legal position
Because you can articulate that you had the light on the gun in order to be able to positively identify
That the threat is in fact a valid threat and that you needed to take lethal force action against it
I think that this is a great little package
For sticking in a pocket or perhaps a specialized holster. I actually if you put it in your pocket the the Viridian light isn't a good choice
Because it's it's meant to be turned on by the whole story
But since they do make a specialized holster that they do sell with when you buy the light you get the holster that comes with it
They've solved that problem for you. And now you have something that has reasonable if not maybe a
Great deal of power is is again better a lot better than nothing if you're a good shot
And this is by the way a close-range weapon its sight radius is such its power is such that this is going to be short-range anyway
But remember statistically that's where most of your engagements are going to be at very close range
you would certainly be able to hit something with this and
Coupled with the light while that is you know certainly not mandatory
Gives you the ability to understand the target better, and there's a mode on this Viridian light
strobe lights a strobe mode that is really really bright and
Definitely would change the OODA loop of the person you're engaged with you if you don't know what an OODA loop is
It's something that was actually
Developed in the context of air combat, but it was observe orient decide act and
much has been written about OODA loops and how criminals use that and what their decision-making process is and victim selection and
I think we talked about this enough with Joe Dermisi when we were talking about the
In episode 8 when we were talking about non-lethal use of pepper spray
But if you can get inside the criminals OODA loop
Maybe he decides you're no longer a valid target right and the display of this light alone might be enough to annoy someone
Oh absolutely react to it look away do something else right and that might be enough advantage just to escape
That's right and put it away and which is always what you want to do if you possibly can and then what do you do after?
that you call
9-1-1 why do you do that you should always be the first person to dial
9-1-1 because who else will call the criminal will call 9-1-1
Yeah, the criminal will call 9-1-1 and if they do they own the narrative they own the narrative the cops will come out
And they'll say did you display a firearm and with a gun and you'll say well
Yes, that guy over there was threatening me and that is now potentially aggregated assault
Yes, which is a felony right and you always want to be the first guy
Yep to call as soon as something happens you immediately at the first opportunity dial 9-1-1
Yeah, and you begin to describe the situation what happened so police can come and respond yeah, so anyway
But let's talk about LCP just itself. I mean LCP the light compact pistol
Came out what oh, I don't know 15 or 18 years ago
The original versions that came out that you see them around you see them in pawn shops and stuff a lot of them were
Purchased by police officers for their off-duty weapon because they were maybe an angle gun
I'm gonna do that as a secondary or third one they originally did not have a good
reputation the first ones that came out the first set of maybe a thousand or maybe
Two thousand pistols that came off the line you mean the you mean just to be clear you mean the LCP
Not the LCP to nor the LCP correct so this is really I mean it's a derivative of the LCP to its kind of third generation
This is a third generation of the LCP the original LCP that came out 15 or 18 years ago
It stands for light compact pistol, but a lot of people had
Had done had renamed it light crappy pistol
police officers who would actually purchase it anyway if you see them in the
pawn shops or something like that
Just be aware of it. You know be aware of it
LCP 2 which came out probably five or eight years after the LCP ones
That did not have the problem. They got a lot better and
The LCP max which is the most recent rendition is the one that we have here, but some of the additional things
It's just got a slightly
nominally fatter grip because it has now gone from a single stack pistol to a pistol which is
Technically a staggered stack double stack and you're going to pick up. I think you're going from six plus one
to
Nine or ten plus one. It's ten plus one and you can actually get in in states that permit it you can get a 12 round
Extended magazine for it right which makes a little less concealable, but then you have a little bit more purchase
On the bottom of the gun for your for your you know third and pinky
fingers
All right, it does
That was a dry fire by the way people it does make this odd clank when it fires it is a hammer fired weapon
You know technically it's an internal hammer
The other thing that I'll point out about this is something that you know my another gun that belongs to my son
The original combination it has two nested
recoil springs around the guide rod the
Combination of those two springs from the factory is 11 pounds
There's an upgrade that you can get that changes it to 13 pounds by only changing the outer spring
So this gun is wearing that and we tried
both the 11 and the 13 pound springs and found that there was a
surprisingly noticeable at least to my hand a
Surprisingly noticeable difference because the 11 pound spring allows the slide to slap back pretty hard
And you think it's a 380 doesn't you know shouldn't be a controllability issue?
But it does actually for a tiny little gun that doesn't have a lot of surface area on your hand hits pretty hard and then
Changing it to the 13 pound spring. It's only two pounds different, but as a percentage. It's quite a bit more and
I noticed it on the next shot
On the first shot of the 13 pound spring. It's only and it's only 10 bucks
Yeah to change the spring right so other than that they make stainless steel guide rods for it sure
Which I don't necessarily think I need they make a takedown pin that has a larger head
Because some people think there's a reliability issue with the head sharing off on on the takedown pin. I think that's
Not likely but you know gun with very minimal modification
I mean does have the best trigger no, um, it has a very long take up
in the in the trigger stroke, but
Again, I don't mind that the gun has no external safety. Most people are happy with that but for a pocket gun
Arguably, maybe you would want a safety. It doesn't have it depends on your holster
Well, you need I think your holster should cover the trigger if you're using a holster
A lot of people are going to throw this in their pocket and call it good. Yeah
I would tend not to do that. You know, it gets entangled with your keys or whatever the heck you have in the same pocket
You know under that very disciplined if you do that
The only other external control on the thing is the is the slide release right?
Yeah, I would not recommend just tossing it in the pocket with keys and I wouldn't do that with any firearm and that includes a
revolver like an lcr
Or a small five shot revolver or a
Small five shot revolver or any of the smith and wessels now
I think you should if you're going to have a firearm
Which effectively all internal safeties because these guns are built with internal safeties. They all are yes, but um
I would protect the trigger assembly and there are some very minimalist
kydex based
Holsters that really just cover the trigger area. Yeah, right
You can almost I would almost be okay with that
But I would definitely even the type that you would tie like to your belt loop your belt loop pull the whole thing out
It pops off behind. Yeah, exactly
Right. So something like that would be fun, but I would definitely on any sort of a pocket gun
Cover the trigger you want to keep that trigger covered because that's the trigger is what it causes this gun to fire
As a firearm to function and you do not want to ever have an an ad an accidental discharge
an ad an accidental discharge or
Otherwise referred to as a negligent discharge correct and if you put it into your knee or your lower leg or something like that
You're going to feel pretty negligent. Oh, yeah, and if you want to see what can happen
There are some youtube videos out there. Oh hell. No, I ain't gonna see that. Okay
But there are youtube videos out there people who who were shooting a 22
Uh semi-auto and they were using their back pocket holster and they insert the the pistol into their back pocket and fire off around
Yep, and the round hits them in the the calf and it's like oh, it's only a 22
and the original guy thinks there's no big deal and
You can almost lose a leg. You could yeah, well you could bleed out too. Yes
You do not want to do that. You do not ever want to be shot or get shot
so
So, okay. Well anyway, so what do we have in upcoming shows? We're going to talk about at some point the
the sky
dvg-1 which is a I would call it a budget pistol, but has some interesting safety features and
Shoots very very comparably to much more expensive guns. We've got a chance to try that
We'll also be recording a show dedicated to atn and talking about their new x-site 5 line
Uh, which we now have a sample of actually I own it on hand that we can review. Uh, it's an electronic site
Not traditional glass. It's not a thermal site, but it does quite well at night
And we'll get through the backlog of all these people like oh gee, how many of them are there?
I mean this stack is a couple inches thick we'll be doing a feature show with ets
they make some of the best polymer magazines available and
And there's a lot coming up and we apologize again for being so late hosting this show life happens
Yeah life happens, but we haven't given up not by a long shot
And uh, we're probably going to have a lot more time to be recording future shows. So, you know pass the word
Like and subscribe. I will point out something important
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even though we don't promulgate anything on this show that is illegal or
Outside the guaranteed freedoms that we have
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So the new site to look at is https
double slash campsite one word
dot bio
slash frugal firearms podcast again
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Again frugal firearms podcast gmail.com any concluding remarks ken? No, I think we've had a very nice
Restart of what we're doing and look forward to talking to you all quite a bit more. So tell your friends about us
Thank you. Thank you. Good night