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Okay.

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Since we're frugal firearms, we're going to start with a person

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who has their first $30 to spend.

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Would you spend that first $30 on a good flashlight or would you spend

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that first $30 on a can of pepper spray?

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Oh, I'd spend it on the pepper spray.

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Cause you can get a couple of cans.

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Uh, you can get two cans of spray for 30 bucks and you're not going to get a

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good flashlight, probably for 30.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's probably true.

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Welcome to episode eight.

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Number eight of the frugal firearms podcast.

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And today is a different kind of show because we're not talking firearms.

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Uh, we're talking non-lethal and less lethal options to firearms.

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And why would we do that?

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Well, frugal is part of the name, right?

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And what's the most expensive day of your life?

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Ken, my cohost, tell us what the most expensive day of your life would be.

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The most expensive day of your life would be the day in which you have to defend

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yourself, particularly with a firearm.

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Yeah.

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And why is that?

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Because of all the costs that are going to be associated with defending

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yourself after the fact.

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And this is why it's encouraged that if you're going to carry a firearm, get

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insurance and that's an upcoming topic.

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We do have a, uh, this is actually probably part one of what will probably

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become a three-part series, although not necessarily in consecutive order.

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Where today we're going to talk pepper spray as an option to lethal force.

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We're going to be having on a representative of one of the major legal defense firms.

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And then we're also going to be covering, you know, the fighting mindset for the

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street, and that's actually going to come via a 20 year policeman, uh, who now

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teaches martial arts and this isn't a martial arts show, but the mindset of the

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fighter is still the same no matter what the tool is, right?

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So we're going to be bringing on our guest who is going to be giving you

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information about probably something you haven't really thought about, which is

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pepper spray, when it's deployable, why you should consider it as part of your

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EDC and what the pitfalls are because every option has a pitfall, right Ken?

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Absolutely.

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So let's go ahead and get to it.

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So welcome to the show, Joe Girmesi from CCW USA.

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And we're going to be talking pepper spray and non and less lethal self-defense options.

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So Joe, welcome to the show and give us a little bit of a

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background on how you became interested in this, how you got involved and what

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you've learned from teaching these classes and what you want people who are

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never going to be in San Diego and who are maybe never going to be able to meet

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you in person or attend one of your classes.

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Give us all the stuff that you want them to know.

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Okay.

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Well, thank you, Craig.

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I'm happy to be here.

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And, um, yeah, in terms of how I got involved in this, I'm relatively new,

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actually, I mean, new concern, like a lot of the people I talk to in the gun

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industry, you know, I hear they've been doing this for 40 years, but I'm

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doing this for 40 years and all that kind of stuff.

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So I really seriously got back into it about 10 years ago and, um, started out

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with handguns and, um, got into competitive shooting and USPSA shooting.

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And was doing that really every weekend, pretty much up to COVID until that kind

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of, uh, disrupted things a bit, but getting interested in the, uh, the non-lethal

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stuff where that came from was getting my concealed carry license.

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And when, um, when I got into concealed carry and, you know, being an instructor

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and a teacher, I'm always into, I take a lot of classes, I'm always trying

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to learn stuff like that.

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One of the things that was, um, that I'd realize, you know, becoming a concealed

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carrier is I got more and more into that is that very few problems are gun problems.

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Um, you know, there's a very tiny window where you're actually justified in using

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deadly force to defend yourself.

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Um, but there's a very large window of things that happen that, um, you know,

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other things may be appropriate responses to them and, um, having some kind of

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non-lethal response is a really good thing.

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Cause like I said, most of the things you're likely to run into are not, you

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know, a gun is not an appropriate response to them.

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And even, you know, if we, cause we always, we talk about, you know, encountering

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violent criminals, which is a definite possibility out there, which is the

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reason we carry, but there's other violent people that aren't necessarily criminals.

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Um, you know, if you remember the people in, um, the people in school, when you

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were a kid, the bullies, those kinds of people, um, the ones that used to fight

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all the time and beat people up, a lot of them didn't grow out of it.

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I don't know if it's a lot of them, but a significant amount of them

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don't grow out of that stuff.

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They're the people that start fights with people, you know, in the line in

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and out, and they want to fight over parking places and things like that.

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And, um, those are the people that you're more likely to run into.

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And those are people that are, uh, you know, appropriate candidates

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for pepper spray really.

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So it has a lot of different uses.

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There's a lot of different things that happen that, like I said, a gun's

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not an appropriate response, but pepper spray is, and it gives you something

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between not doing anything at all.

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And, you know, having nothing other than a gun.

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So, um, then that's where I finally, I started to realize that as I, you know,

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found myself carrying every day.

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So that's, that's how I got interested in looking into that more.

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Did you ever find yourself in a situation where, you know, when you started

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carrying and there was nothing else in your holster or in your pocket, and the

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only other option was to either verbally disengage or run away that you thought,

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oh man, I actually could have used this.

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Or was it more of a theoretical?

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No, it was more of a theoretical.

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I've been, again, fortunate.

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And I like to, I like to think I've cracked this good situational awareness

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because, you know, the, the two classes we were talking about, the pepper

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spray class and the CCW next next steps class.

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Um, I spend the majority of the class, you know, telling people how to avoid

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situations because that's, you win every fight that you avoid and, and that's

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what I tell people is like, you know, you want to be paying attention because.

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In the case of criminals, um, you know, criminals are predators and they do very

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specific things to when they select, you know, their victims, their prey.

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And if you're paying attention, a lot of times you can see, a lot of times

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the things that they're doing are not normal things that everyday people do.

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And if you're paying attention, you'll notice that kind of stuff.

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And one of the things I'll tell students is, you know, awareness

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buys you time, time buys you options.

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The sooner you see something developing, the more options you have.

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If you don't notice, you know, an attacker or criminal until they're right on you,

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then your options are really limited.

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So the more you're paying attention, uh, the sooner you can see something,

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the more options you have.

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So that's, you know, really what we try to teach people.

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And I hope I practice that.

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So maybe that's why I haven't really been in that, that kind of a situation.

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I've gotten, I've, you know, I've had the pepper spray staged in my hand before,

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but I've never had to really use it.

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You're fortunate.

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Definitely.

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I took light, the right light rail system here in San Diego, the trolley

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system for 17 years.

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Yeah, that's another thing I avoid.

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So yeah, that could be.

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And I saw pretty much everything at one point in time during those

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17 years on the trolley.

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Sometimes it'd be, you know, your normal eight to five work type of thing.

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Uh, sometimes it was coming home very late at night and I pretty

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much saw one of everything.

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And I was probably in 17 years, I were probably four or five times when

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people came up to me and began to threaten me.

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Um, but I'm generally speaking, a big guy, uh, just over six foot tall and,

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and, you know, solidly built Craig would probably agree with that statement.

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And I oftentimes just sometimes carrying a first, my briefcase back in the day.

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And then my laptop bag.

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And first thing I would do is I'd hold my, you know, my laptop or my

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briefcase between me and the idiot who's trying to scream at me or do something

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like that, a lot of these people are mentally ill and you don't know what

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the heck's going to go on.

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And sometimes in a car like that, when you're in a train like that, you can see

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the problem occurring further down the car.

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And at the next stop, I would get off, run up to the next car and get on.

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Just as you say, avoid it because you win everything that you avoid.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah. And if you think about that too, the incidents that you've

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saw the couple that you just mentioned, you know, were any of those something

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where you would have felt that, okay, it's appropriate to use a firearm

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here to defend myself?

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Um, I saw only one circumstance in all the time I've ever doing it, where,

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um, a guy came in with a woman and, uh, he was sitting down with her and he had

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a buck knife about four and a half inch blade buck knife and he had it out and

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he was rubbing it up against her throat and she was completely ignoring him.

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And I'm like, this is not good.

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This must be some sort of a, I don't know.

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It was a hostage situation.

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She wouldn't look at me, but I didn't think it was a hostage situation.

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I think it was just her involved with some really bad boyfriend type of deal.

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And he had the knife and I'm sitting there going, he's sitting across from me.

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He's about six feet away from me and I got nothing.

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And I'm saying, if something happened, I go, this would be the one situation.

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I didn't escalate anything.

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You know, I wasn't going to stare him down, like put the knife away or say

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anything stupid to him, I wasn't going to do anything, but that was the one time

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I could have told you, I said, I would have felt a lot more comfortable

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if I had something with me.

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Yeah.

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And we, we talk about that kind of stuff in class too, cause you know, third

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party incidents like that are, you know, getting involved in that.

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There's a million ways that can go sideways, you know, whether that woman

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was a hostage or not, and that's, that's a big deal on that.

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One of the reasons for the next steps class is because, you know, I see a lot

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of people in the CCW qual class that we teach that, okay, they're the only,

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they're getting this concealed carry license and they're the only ones

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they know that carry.

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So it's like, well, who do you, who do they talk to, to find out about

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holsters, about gun belts, about carrying with around in the chamber,

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dealing with colleagues and family and friends, getting involved in third

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party incidents, cause you know, we don't generally in the qualification

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class, we touch on that stuff, we don't really hit it hard cause we're

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only there for a day.

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So, you know, that was one of the reasons I developed the next steps

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class to talk about those things.

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But, you know, when you see something like that, you know, what's running

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through your mind, especially if you're carrying is okay, do I get involved?

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Do I help this woman?

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You know, what you got to think about that stuff ahead of time.

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There's, there's an instructor that says your, your mind, what's it say?

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Your body cannot go where your mind hasn't been.

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What they're talking about there is, you know, if you haven't thought about

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this kind of stuff ahead of time, you're less likely to make the good decision

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or the correct decision under stress like that in a few seconds that you

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have to decide.

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So, you know, thinking about that kind of stuff is really important.

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And, um, like we're saying, you win every fight you avoid.

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So, you know, if you can avoid that kind of stuff, that's the way to go.

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That is an excellent point.

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And, and it actually mirrors an upcoming show, a conversation, a

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pre-production conversation I had with another guest in the future who teaches

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from the perspective of you have to think through, not just the reaction,

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but the planned action and the difference between those, of course, is that if,

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you know, anything you do, particularly, I mean, Ken's talking about on the

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trolley, anything that goes down the trolley, it's going to be on a security

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camera, it's probably going to be on three or four other people's iPhones,

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you know, or, or whatever phone they're carrying.

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And it's going to be uploaded to Instagram and TikTok and things like that.

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And that's going to be used against you.

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And if you overreact, you know, disproportionate, you talked about Ken,

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you know, the fact that some of these people have mental challenges.

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You just took out a guy who is known to have mental problems.

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And now his family's sitting in court, aggrieved over the fact that, you know,

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you didn't read something that to them was obvious.

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That was just a body language thing, correctly.

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Yeah, that that's where the danger, but, you know, Joe, you said something.

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And for those who don't know on the San Diego County Gunners Association website,

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Joe recently posted an article.

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It's a quick read, but, but worth reading.

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I recommend it to people, but you were talking about your students and you said,

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they know that very few of the problems are gun problems as you already related.

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And I want to question that for a second.

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Do you think that most, maybe your students are a little higher caliber, not to make

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a pun, but do you think that most people understand that especially, and I'm not

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being critical, but do you think that that's the case in constitutional carry states

229
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,480
where now people with no training at all are sticking a gun in their waist belt and

230
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:16,320
saying, you know what, I'm the man now and kind of like, I am the law and I'm going to go out and be the enforcer or the vigilante or I'm going to be the gunman.

231
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:17,640
I'm going to take care of business.

232
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,280
And they really haven't thought about the consequences.

233
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:21,160
Yeah.

234
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,560
And our students understand that because Bill and I make it a point to tell them

235
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:27,920
that, but no, you're right with the constitutional carry states.

236
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,560
That was one of my reservations I had about that.

237
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,840
I mean, you know, I completely support constitutional carry.

238
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:40,560
It's your right to carry, but I was hesitant about that just for exactly that reason.

239
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,440
Because okay, people decide they're going to, they're going to carry a gun.

240
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:51,480
And if they're not required to go to any kind of training, how do you, how did they know, you know, how to stay out of trouble?

241
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,440
Basically what they can do, what they can't do.

242
00:13:53,440 --> 00:14:00,120
Cause the laws, you know, laws are, especially in California, but I mean, laws anywhere are not particularly rational.

243
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:00,960
They're not logical.

244
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,600
They're not something that you would think, okay, that makes sense.

245
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,040
A lot of times they're not like that at all.

246
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,200
And, you know, I voiced that concern.

247
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,200
We were doing the radio show one day and we had, we had Ursula Williams, who's a,

248
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,960
who's a competitive shooter from Arizona.

249
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,680
And then Chris Chang, who was the, one of the top gun winners, they were the guests in the show.

250
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:27,560
And I was mentioning that constitutional carry came up and, you know, I was mentioning that I had that kind of reservation as a, as a trainer, an instructor.

251
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:36,840
You know, that people that just decide they're going to carry, you know, that's, you know, something that made me nervous that they're not prepared necessarily.

252
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,560
It was interesting because Ursula and Chris both jumped on me for that.

253
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,440
And they said, you know, it's not your responsibility.

254
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,440
They're saying these are adults, these are responsible adults.

255
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,920
They're, they're making the decision to carry a firearm.

256
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,840
It's on them to learn the things that they need to learn to do this responsibly.

257
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,440
And, you know, I was thinking about, and I thought, yeah, you know, you're right.

258
00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,640
And I actually feel that way.

259
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:07,680
I just didn't know I felt that way because like in our classes, you know, if we have, you know, typically we'll have say 18 people or so in a class for the

260
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:22,400
concealed carry qual and, and I know just looking at the class, I know half of those people, at least won't set foot in another classroom, you know, and for another two years until they have to come back and recall, you know, and I can't make people be responsible.

261
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,640
I used to feel bad about that.

262
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,840
And, but that, that discussion with Ursula and Chris kind of straighten me out on that one.

263
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:30,920
Cause again, I can do what I can do.

264
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,880
That's why I created these, the two classes, the pepper spray and situational awareness class.

265
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,320
And the next steps class, just, okay.

266
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:51,240
I'm offering, I'm offering the, the knowledge here, I guess, if it's up to you, if you want to take me up on the offer, you know, I'm offering to give you the stuff you need to do this hopefully safely and effectively.

267
00:15:51,240 --> 00:16:00,360
And if you ever do get into a situation, you know, hopefully you'll respond correctly and you won't get yourself in more trouble, but you know, you can't, you can't make people be responsible.

268
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,080
You can't legislate that kind of stuff.

269
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,280
So that's kind of how I looked at it with the constitutional carry.

270
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,160
You know much about how the, um, the laws on pepper spray has changed over the years.

271
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,400
The reason I say this is, uh, I was, Craig and I were talking about this.

272
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,440
It was like, it must've been about 40 years ago, Craig.

273
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,360
It was back in the early eighties that you and I went over to Mesa college.

274
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:29,280
I think it was, and we took a class on pepper spray or whatever it was, OC, whatever, all caps again, whatever.

275
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,000
At the time, um, and, and they gave us a card.

276
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:39,000
It was a lifetime, uh, card that was, uh, I still have it around here someplace.

277
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:39,960
It's like 40 years.

278
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,960
I used to carry it in my wallet, uh, back when I, when I had that.

279
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,360
And, uh, you know, I don't even know if they even require that anymore.

280
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,240
I was just curious.

281
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:48,000
Yeah.

282
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:48,840
Tell us about that, Joe.

283
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,560
I mean, and to not just California, but can you speak to other states and municipalities?

284
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:54,120
Yeah.

285
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,600
You know, I could speak to, there's several states that have a lot of

286
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:03,280
personal experience with obviously California and, you know, some of the worst ones really don't

287
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,240
regulate it that much.

288
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,600
Like out here in California, you know, anyone that's, um, 18 and older can buy pepper spray and carry

289
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,800
pepper spray, um, 16 to 18 with parental permission.

290
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:16,800
There's no license or anything like that required.

291
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,320
Um, it is considered use of force.

292
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,560
So if you use, if you spray someone and you're not justified, you can be fined, you can be

293
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,560
jailed for that as a felony or a misdemeanor.

294
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,200
Um, I believe, well, it depends on what you're doing with it.

295
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,840
I believe it's a misdemeanor for the most part, um, because you can spend it's up to a

296
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,960
thousand dollar fine and I think a year in county jail.

297
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,240
And, um, I want to, I just had it up here too.

298
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:41,960
I dropped it.

299
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,880
Um, well, your article, just as a reminder, your article mentioned that you said imprisonment

300
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,840
up to three years or one year in county jail.

301
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,520
Three years to me sounds like that sounds like a felony.

302
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,640
Yeah. And it could be, I did not see that when I looked at the, um, when I looked at

303
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,960
the law on there, when I was reading the penal code and I'm not sure exactly how that,

304
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,480
that may be the prosecutor's discretion as to how they charge that.

305
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,960
And it may depend on what you're doing, because, um, one of the things that's going on

306
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,760
now is criminals are using pepper spray.

307
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,960
And, uh, so they're using pepper spray to rob people.

308
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,640
So, um, you know, if you use it in the commission of another crime like that, it's

309
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,840
an accelerator. Yeah. That's probably where they can, I, you know, I'm guessing they have

310
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,240
the discretion, but I can't say for sure.

311
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,680
Um, but even the, um, other places, like I grew up in New Jersey, so I was just back

312
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,360
there a couple of weeks ago, visiting my mom.

313
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,400
You know, I looked up the, uh, the pepper spray thing there and you can carry pepper

314
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,080
spray in New Jersey, which again, that's one of the more abusive States when it comes to

315
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:40,840
your rights.

316
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:45,640
Um, even New York, um, you have to buy the pepper spray, I think through an FFL.

317
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,560
In New York and they, they kind of license it that way, but even there, you can carry

318
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:50,160
pepper spray.

319
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,960
So I'm guessing most States are, are not real, um, real restrictive on that.

320
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,520
Cause those, those three States are some of the worst States in the country.

321
00:18:58,560 --> 00:18:58,880
Yeah.

322
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:04,320
So if that's the extent in those States, it's probably not, not much worse any place

323
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:04,760
else.

324
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:09,960
So let me stick in a PSA here for the listeners misuse of pepper spray.

325
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,440
If you are in a state that issues pepper spray, you're not going to be able to

326
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,160
use CCWs that you, that's not constitutional carry.

327
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:25,560
Uh, those are adjudicated based on among other things, criminal records and your

328
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:26,960
character and things like that.

329
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,000
Uh, if you end up misusing pepper spray, whether in a misdemeanor offense or

330
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:38,160
particularly a felony offense, you've probably just lost your access to your CCW

331
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,560
as well, because at least it won't be renewed.

332
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,160
So something to consider.

333
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,400
Yeah, that's it's actually worse than that because you have to, and something

334
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,080
we tell all of our students, if you're carrying concealed and you get involved

335
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:55,280
in some other altercation and it turns into an assault thing, even if you get

336
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,440
into say just a fight where you just throw them punches, for instance, if that

337
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,120
happens while you are armed, even though the gun had nothing to do with it, you

338
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:08,320
can be charged at a higher level for, um, for doing something when you're carrying.

339
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,600
Um, my teaching partner, uh, tells a story of, uh, I think the guy was, um,

340
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,760
um, a friend, somebody who knew it was his son.

341
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,440
And this was back in Virginia.

342
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:24,240
The guy got, got involved with a bad woman and, uh, the woman invited, uh, this

343
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,200
guy and her current boyfriend over at the same time to see what she could instigate.

344
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,360
And it turned into some shoving and pushing around and stuff like that.

345
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:38,440
And the one guy pulled out a little canister of pepper spray, sprayed

346
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,280
the other guy and then left after a day or two, being a good guy.

347
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,120
He went in and turned himself into the police saying, yeah, I did spray him.

348
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,800
And during the course of talking to the police, you know, he said he was a

349
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,920
concealed carrier carrier he was carrying, but he didn't do anything with

350
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,520
the gun or anything like that.

351
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,960
And the charge went from a simple assault and there was some mandatory

352
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,480
sentencing thing back there, um, at the time, and because he did it with a gun,

353
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,960
uh, he was sentenced to five years in prison for committing that assault while

354
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:08,560
armed.

355
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,200
So like we tell our students, that's why you have to avoid all of that stuff.

356
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,400
You don't want to get involved in anything at all.

357
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,880
If you're a concealed carrier, you gotta, you gotta conduct yourself at a higher

358
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,840
level than other people do.

359
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,040
Um, because, and again, anything you get involved with while you're carrying,

360
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,480
whether the gun has anything to do with it or not, can get you in more trouble,

361
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,440
more serious trouble.

362
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,920
What's your opinion now we've been talking pepper spray, pepper spray, pepper

363
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:34,200
spray.

364
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,920
I'm going to ask a two part question.

365
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:42,400
Other non-lethal or less lethal options that you think are valid and if not why,

366
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:49,120
and other chemistries of, um, let's say sprays, not because there's not a

367
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:53,400
better spray or well, but their spray is, I think it's just a concentrated

368
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,240
thing in a big can and the cans too big to carry in public cause it's over two

369
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,200
and a half ounces.

370
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,640
I think that's the preclusion on bear spray, but I'm thinking like OCOS, some

371
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,480
of the older formulas and things like that.

372
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,040
I, I, if you can address that, I think the market maybe is all now pepper spray

373
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:09,840
anyway, I'm not sure.

374
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:10,920
Yeah.

375
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,720
And the pepper spray is technically OC spray.

376
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:13,840
I mean, that's what that is.

377
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,360
Um, the law in California, they talk about, they talk about mace and other,

378
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,480
other chemicals, uh, sprays, but generally what most people have is pepper spray.

379
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,880
In terms of non-lethal stuff, you know, the other basic, the basic stuff is

380
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,840
non-lethal stuff, you know, the other big one you probably see are the electronic

381
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,320
control devices or tasers, that kind of stuff.

382
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,440
And you know, there's, there's the two kinds there.

383
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,280
There's the kind that actually have the prongs that you have to touch somebody

384
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,800
with, and then there's the, the taser style.

385
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:43,920
And I think taser is a company.

386
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:44,680
It's a brand name.

387
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:45,360
Yes, it is.

388
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:45,840
Yeah.

389
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,520
The style where it shoots the two prongs out basically.

390
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:49,920
Right.

391
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,200
And the problem with those, you know, for the one, if, if it's the shocker

392
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,520
to get close enough to touch somebody, I mean, it'll work, but you got to get

393
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,600
close enough, you got to get within arm's reach of the person to do that,

394
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,200
which is not a good thing.

395
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,640
One of the good things pepper spray gives you is distance.

396
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,400
Um, you can deploy the pepper spray probably from 10 feet out reasonably.

397
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,000
And that gives you a little bit of distance between you and the attacker.

398
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:21,360
Um, the other thing about tasers is they say they work really well if you get

399
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,960
two good hits with those two prongs, you got to get two good hits, it's got to go

400
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,360
through the clothing, you can't miss with one prong.

401
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,400
If you notice, um, if you watch videos, if you watch John Korea's videos or any

402
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,200
of those crime type videos, when with police, when they deploy a taser, there's

403
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,480
always, always another officer back there with, with a gun as a backup.

404
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,640
Because again, you know, it depends on, on getting those prongs in a good spot.

405
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,200
If you get them in there, they work great.

406
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,920
Um, which again, with pepper spray too, something we tell people with pepper

407
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,720
spray is it works most of the time, you know, probably over 90% of the time.

408
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:01,480
But there are people out there that it doesn't bother, you know, and that's,

409
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,480
you know, that's one thing to consider.

410
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,840
I remember, um, years ago, I bartended for a long time at the old town Mexican

411
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,920
cafe and, um, there was a guy in there one day and back then I was gardening a lot.

412
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,160
And I'd grown a bunch of these, um, habanero peppers and one of the managers

413
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,280
said, Hey, why don't you bring those, bring me some in, I'll grind them up,

414
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,320
you know, dry them out and grind them up for you, make a powder.

415
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:23,280
So I said, okay, great.

416
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,840
So I had a big bag of these habanero peppers on the back bar and there was a

417
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,520
guy sitting at the bar and he said, Hey, are those habaneros?

418
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,160
I said, yeah.

419
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,680
And he said, um, Hey, can I have one or two?

420
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:34,720
I said, sure.

421
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,840
If they're really hot, he said, no, it don't bother me at all.

422
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:37,840
And he grabbed one.

423
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:38,520
I gave him a couple.

424
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,880
He grabbed me, just popped it in his mouth, like a cherry and just chewed it up.

425
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:42,440
It was great.

426
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,960
So down the other end of the bar is one of my regular customers and he's looking,

427
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,160
Hey, give me some of those.

428
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,760
And he had a couple of beers by then.

429
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,040
And I said, Hey, give me a couple of those things.

430
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,040
And I said, dude, I don't know what that was.

431
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,800
It just happened, but that is not normal.

432
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,040
You don't really want to do this.

433
00:24:59,280 --> 00:24:59,520
Yeah.

434
00:24:59,520 --> 00:24:59,880
Yeah.

435
00:24:59,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Yeah.

436
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:00,480
Give me one.

437
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:01,000
All right.

438
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:01,480
Here you go.

439
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,520
So I gave him one and he threw it in his mouth, started chewing it up and his,

440
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,680
his face just turned bright red.

441
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,800
His eyes were just streaming water.

442
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,440
He knocked out two beers and a glass of half and half that I gave him.

443
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,280
And you know, the point there is there are some people that

444
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,560
that just doesn't bother.

445
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,440
The other thing with the pepper spray is too, you got, you got to hit them.

446
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,960
And that's why we tell people, you know, if you're going to deploy it, you

447
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,680
don't want to like hold the spray out and say, you know, don't come near me.

448
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:27,280
I'll spray you.

449
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,080
Cause now you're telling the guy that you got it.

450
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,600
And we'll do this in class with the inert sprayers.

451
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,880
And if somebody knows you have it and they're trying not to be sprayed,

452
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,440
it's hard to hit them sometimes.

453
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,760
So, you know, if you're going to deploy that it comes out fast and you deploy it.

454
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,720
And, and you spray them because again, if they know they could duck their head

455
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,400
down, they can do different things.

456
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,520
And you got to remember with the pepper spray, unlike a taser, you know, if you

457
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,600
get a good hit with a taser that the person's done, they're not going to be

458
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,040
doing anything for a little bit with the pepper spray, even if you get a good

459
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,240
solid hit to the eyes, if they get their hands on you, they can do anything after

460
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,520
their spray that they could have done to you before they were sprayed.

461
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,520
They just can't have their eyes open when they're doing it.

462
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,120
So, you know, you have to consider that kind of stuff, um, you know, when you're

463
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:15,160
using this, that's a good point.

464
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,560
I got a question about, uh, are you aware of any dogs or other animals that,

465
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,680
because I figured the only time I would probably use the pepper spray if I'm

466
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,520
driving along and for example, I see a kid being attacked by a vicious dog or

467
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:27,080
something like that.

468
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:32,120
Have you ever heard of a certain types of dogs or certain types of other animals

469
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,760
that are just not affected by pepper spray?

470
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,880
No, it should work great on all kinds of dogs, coyotes, animals like that.

471
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,280
And that's a great, that's another good reason to carry it.

472
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,120
Um, because again, we'll talk about like in my neighborhood here, I'm out in

473
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:50,040
Lakeside and there's lots of people walking lots of dogs out here all the time.

474
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,920
There's also some neighbors that have some big goofy dogs that get out on

475
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,080
their own sometimes, you know, if you get a dog like that, like I've got smaller

476
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,320
dog, I've got pugs here.

477
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,840
You know, if you have a bigger dog attacking your dog, you really, you know,

478
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,800
a gun's not something that's appropriate there.

479
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,080
You can't really use that.

480
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,720
If you have a dog attacking you or a child, I mean, in that case, the gun would

481
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,560
be appropriate, but you got to think about that if, um, you know, if you've

482
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,880
got, say you're walking a, you know, a little kid with you or something like

483
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,880
that, and the dog comes up and attacks the kid first off, can you hit, do you

484
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,680
train, do you practice to hit a, a small snarling snapping target that's moving

485
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,920
all over the place when it's like right next to a child or you, the other thing

486
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,000
is you're discharging a firearm, you know, in the community, in a neighborhood,

487
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,280
which is not going to be a good thing.

488
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,880
Pepper spray is perfect in that kind of situation.

489
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,440
Um, so, you know, it works really well with, um, with animals and things like

490
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,000
that, so that's another good reason, I guess, to carry something like that.

491
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:56,760
You mentioned then going to the idea that you have, uh, a child in proximity.

492
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,840
Um, perhaps you're in a crowded bar that you already kind of alluded to.

493
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,840
Um, and you know, as, as I think you put it, this, um, what was the term

494
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:14,800
you used, you had an acronym for it, uh, the general, what was he called?

495
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:22,320
Oh, and the article, the GVA, the GVA, the GVA, the, the, and, and

496
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,280
garden variety, uh, a hole.

497
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:25,680
There you go.

498
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:26,360
Yeah.

499
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,760
So you have your GVA or two GVAs who, who've decided that, you know, they

500
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,720
don't like the fact that you're looking at this girl who happens to be attractive

501
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,280
and you're doing that anyway, because whatever, but there's also 10 other

502
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,400
people around who are going to get hit by the cloud.

503
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,720
Well, it depends on the, the pepper spray that I carry is a stream type pepper

504
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,120
spray, um, which is what you really want to carry, um, uh, clad and you can carry.

505
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,840
The only thing that, uh, California says you cannot carry is, uh, something

506
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,480
that's a, that shoots projectiles.

507
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,600
So, you know, they, they make things that shoot pepper balls.

508
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:02,240
Yeah.

509
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:08,240
Um, so that California says you can have that, but gels, clouds, sprays, um,

510
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,280
they're all fine with in California.

511
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,120
Um, but that's the idea with the spray, I think, is it's more direct or

512
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,280
it's more precise, I guess your chances of, um, hitting people around, you

513
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:24,600
know, collateral damage, uh, are a lot lower, but, um, you know, hey, if you

514
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,400
shoot a, you know, if you have a spray type and you, uh, shoot a cloud out there,

515
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,520
as long as you get the guy that you needed to get, uh, you know, you can

516
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:32,840
get the guy that you needed to get.

517
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,040
I guess that's okay.

518
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:35,440
Okay.

519
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,840
Now you've subdued, you know, these perps who are now behaving as if they're, you

520
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,720
know, in pain because they are, and, and the threat is passed.

521
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,280
I'm assuming that the general advice is you do just like you would in a shooting.

522
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,880
You call the police, you're the first one to call the police.

523
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,480
They show up and then you're going to articulate what happened to them.

524
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,120
Yeah.

525
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,440
And that's what I would say, because again, if, especially if you're in a

526
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,280
place like that where there's lots of people around, you're for sure going to

527
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,160
get videoed, um, there's going to be other people there and you don't know

528
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,800
what other people are going to say.

529
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,560
And it's, it's unfortunate in our society, but people say all sorts of things now.

530
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,360
So if you do have to do something like that, again, it is a use of force.

531
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,520
It's not deadly force, but you did use force.

532
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,840
So probably better for you to call the police, um, get on record that you, okay,

533
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,960
you made the call if they do show up, if they do bother to come out there,

534
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,080
something that we tell students or that I tell students all the time is a CYA

535
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,520
is a, the thing you want to remember.

536
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,160
And, um, you know, what CYA is, is can you articulate?

537
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:46,200
So can you explain why what you did was reasonable for a person in your

538
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,040
situation, knowing what you knew at the time.

539
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,200
And that's what we say, even if you have to use a firearm, that's, you

540
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,200
have to be able to explain that because the, um, you know, the laws, like with

541
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,800
firearms, they're not black and white, it's a big gray area because, you know,

542
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,080
you responded to say a deadly threat.

543
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,200
So what, what's a threat of great bodily injury or death?

544
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,200
And it depends something, you know, for an older person, like if you have a

545
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,040
younger, say a younger person throwing punches, uh, you know, you have a

546
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,760
25 year old guy throwing a punch at a 70 year old man, you could probably make

547
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,040
a good argument that that was a threat of great bodily injury.

548
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,360
Um, you know, a 25 year old throwing a punch at another 25 year old, you're

549
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,360
going to have a harder time making that argument.

550
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,400
You know, if you have two or three attackers, you can make a disparity

551
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,360
of force argument.

552
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,560
So, you know, it's not a gray area.

553
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,440
So CYA is what you want to remember.

554
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,760
You know, can you articulate why what you did was reasonable for someone in

555
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,080
your situation, knowing what you knew at the time.

556
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:45,760
How do you think you should carry?

557
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,000
I mean, do you make your own custom holster with another little pocket in

558
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:56,000
it or, you know, do you throw it in the pocket with your keys or what do

559
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,040
you, what do you recommend for that?

560
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,320
Because there's an awful lot of, there's a big, big, big industry for firearm

561
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:06,080
holsters and I think not much for any non-lethal options.

562
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:06,720
Yeah.

563
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,160
And I haven't looked, uh, cause I saw that and, um, when we were talking

564
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,080
about questions, what we might talk about today, um, you know, holsters

565
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,040
with another, you know, a spot for pepper spray, and I have not looked for those.

566
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,480
It would not surprise me if they're out there and people make everything now.

567
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,960
Um, for me personally, I would not carry the pepper spray near the

568
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,640
firearm just because, okay, if you've got to deploy, say you got to get the

569
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:36,400
pepper spray out, if it's in a compartment or a something that's attached to this,

570
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,640
you know, the holster where your gun is, you're, you know, and you're carrying

571
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,400
concealed, you're probably going to have to reveal your gun to get to the pepper

572
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,920
spray if it's in the same holster.

573
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,800
So what I do, um, and the two pepper sprays I like, I like Palm pepper spray,

574
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:50,840
which is what I carry.

575
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,880
The other one that's really good is a Sabre brand, both Palm and Sabre are really good.

576
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:02,000
And, um, they both make, uh, the same kinds of clips or devices on them to carry.

577
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,320
Palm, the one I carry with Palm has a little clip that clips into your pocket.

578
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,360
So like I carry my firearm on my right side, I keep the pepper spray in my

579
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,160
pocket on my left side, and it clips in.

580
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,320
And what I like about it is I could reach in there and I could orient that in my

581
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,440
hand so that if I can feel the clip against my fingers, I know it's pointed in

582
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,080
the right direction.

583
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:23,960
I don't have to look at it.

584
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,400
And so I like that about the Palm.

585
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,960
Um, the other version they have is the key chain version, which again is another

586
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:31,760
good way to do it.

587
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,920
Um, you know, if you're walking out to your car or something like that, you

588
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,120
should have your keys out.

589
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,600
So it's a real handy thing to carry, just hold the pepper spray on your keys.

590
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,960
And then that way it's in your hand already.

591
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,400
Nobody's thinking you have anything other than keys, um, in your hand.

592
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,480
So that's a good way to do it.

593
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,960
So for me personally, I don't think I would carry it with the holster just

594
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,960
because if I have to get to it, I pretty much have to move my shirt out of the

595
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,760
way or do something that's likely to reveal my gun or my holster.

596
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,200
So I probably wouldn't do it that way.

597
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:08,600
Are there, um, situations that you have seen where either by law or just by

598
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,600
wisdom, you think it's a bad idea to carry pepper spray?

599
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,440
Um, that you would recommend against it for some reason?

600
00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:19,760
Um, for carrying, uh, I, I would not, I mean, some, and if someplace where it's

601
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,680
probably not legal, like I would not carry it onto an airplane, that's going

602
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,440
to get you trouble going through TSA or something like that.

603
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,320
Um, other than that, there really isn't any, I don't know that I could think of

604
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,040
any place where I would say not carry it.

605
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,360
There are times when it's not appropriate.

606
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,480
Obviously it's not, it's not an appropriate response to a deadly threat.

607
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,200
If you're being threatened by someone with an edged weapon of some sort or a gun,

608
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,920
it's not an appropriate response to that.

609
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,800
But in terms of carrying it, you know, as long as you're not someplace where

610
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,760
you're prohibited by law from carrying it, um, I don't know that I would think,

611
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,760
I can think of any place where you wouldn't want to carry it.

612
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,560
And is bear spray a cloud version of basically the same a chemical?

613
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:00,760
It is.

614
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,280
Um, and again, the thing with bear spray, it's, it gets, it gets back to that

615
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,320
CYA thing, if you have to deploy it, you know, what you're going to be asked is

616
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,880
why are you carrying this, this beer can size thing of bear spray around with you

617
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:15,520
in public?

618
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,000
It's like, you'll hear people talk about wasps, right?

619
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,200
I hear this in class all the time.

620
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,640
You know, wow, you could use wasps spray.

621
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,680
So yeah, you could, but you're going to have to explain why you did that and why

622
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,120
you possibly cause somebody some permanent eye damage and why you were

623
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,400
carrying that thing around.

624
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,840
Yeah, if you're attacked in your garden shed and that was the first thing you

625
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,840
grabbed, okay, you can probably explain that away, but if you're downtown going

626
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,800
to a restaurant and you're carrying a can of wasps spray, you're probably going

627
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:44,640
to have a problem with it.

628
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,760
So same thing with bear spray.

629
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,680
I mean, bear spray, you can walk into Turner's now and buy bear spray and it's

630
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,440
much bigger than the what, two and a half ounces that we're supposed to be limited

631
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,520
to for, for pepper spray to carry.

632
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,720
But again, so there is a maximum limit of like two and a half ounces.

633
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:04,080
You say, yeah, in California, they say two and a half ounces is what it's supposed

634
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:04,280
to be.

635
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,640
Is that on your physical person?

636
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,880
What, what if you have something tucked in your car door in your car, for example?

637
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,440
Again, you could probably, uh, again, it's, it gets to be a CYA thing.

638
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,520
You know, why were you, why is it there?

639
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,360
Why were you carrying it?

640
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,120
Um, they just say using pepper spray is a defensive tool against other people.

641
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,320
California says two and a half ounces.

642
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,520
All this stuff is up for debate and know your laws and whatever jurisdiction you

643
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:29,240
have in your hands.

644
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:32,880
Who knows it might be three ounces someplace else and one ounce someplace.

645
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:33,560
Oh, you never know.

646
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:34,280
Yeah, exactly.

647
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,560
Yeah.

648
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,480
The more you, you kind of go, the more you kind of bend those laws, the more

649
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,520
challenging you make it for your legal team.

650
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,720
If it goes that far for them to argue it.

651
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,720
Have you seen that the laws either in California that you can speak to

652
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:51,840
specifically, or just generally across the country are becoming more permissive

653
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,000
in terms of, of pepper spray and other non-lethal options, more restrictive?

654
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,720
About the same?

655
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:05,640
Um, no, I have, I have really not seen all the stuff that I, you know, get to look

656
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,160
at through the gun owners and writing and all this stuff.

657
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,520
I really have not seen much on that stuff.

658
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,240
I don't think many of the States are doing too much with that.

659
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,280
Again, you know, I would look at where you're likely to see that kind of

660
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,040
stuff is the most restrictive States.

661
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,040
So just looking at California, New Jersey and New York, they don't seem to be

662
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,160
doing much more in terms of going further to restrict that kind of stuff.

663
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:33,240
So my guess would be most places probably are not, but I mean, I couldn't, you know,

664
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,920
I've never done an exhaustive search for that to see what was going on.

665
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:37,680
Okay.

666
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:38,800
I got a question for you.

667
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:44,720
Another good thing to have with you and non-lethal is a flashlight,

668
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,400
a nice bright flashlight.

669
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,760
Particularly a lot of stuff happens at night and the flashlight can be a

670
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,080
wonderful way to keep you and that and a loud voice, a commanding voice can

671
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,680
get you out of a lot of situations.

672
00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:57,800
Okay.

673
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,840
Since we're frugal firearms, we're going to start with the person who has

674
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,240
their first $30 to spend.

675
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,000
Would you spend that first $30 on a good flashlight or would you spend that first

676
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,440
$30 on a can of a pepper spray?

677
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:12,080
Oh, I'd spend it on the pepper spray.

678
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,480
Cause you can get a couple of cans.

679
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,200
Uh, you can get two cans of spray for 30 bucks and you're not going to get a

680
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,800
good flashlight, probably for 30.

681
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Yeah, that's probably true.

682
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:21,480
Okay.

683
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:22,040
So that's good.

684
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,760
But a flashlight though, you brought up a good point though.

685
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,400
Flashlight is something you should always be carrying, especially if you're

686
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,280
carrying a firearm, because again, you have to see, you can't shoot at something

687
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,960
you can't for sure identify.

688
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,360
Um, you know, and if you're in a, uh, you know, a low light kind of condition,

689
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:39,880
you can't just shoot at a shadow.

690
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,560
So you, you, you have to have a flashlight and, um, I carry a nice small

691
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,000
one actually, that's a, that's really bright, uh, by Olight.

692
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,440
And, um, you know, there was a place, my wife is a retired educator.

693
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:53,720
She was a retired principal.

694
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,280
And, um, back when she was teaching, um, there's a restaurant in El Cajon.

695
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,680
I think it's Corfavor, I think it's called, but it was real popular for

696
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,120
birthday parties and retirements and things.

697
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,440
So I found myself there a couple of times.

698
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,320
And if you're familiar with that area, that main street of El Cajon or the

699
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,080
restaurant is there's a side street just behind it where everybody tends the park.

700
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,800
And, um, if you get there when it's light, it's a nice little street.

701
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,240
If you come out of the restaurant after it's dark, the street is pitch black.

702
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,880
There's not a light anywhere on it.

703
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,520
And, um, the first time I parked on there and made that mistake, I said,

704
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,440
Oh, this isn't good because you're, you're walking down this pitch black street.

705
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,160
I think there's actually an empty lot where people hang out on one side of it.

706
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,600
But a simple flashlight, you know, could help you avoid problems in places

707
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,400
like that, if you're silly enough to park on a street like that.

708
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,720
Um, just by having the flashlight out, cause people looking at it, they don't

709
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,120
know if you're a cop, they don't know what that is with that flashlight.

710
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,760
The other thing is if you just have the flashlight in your hand, like you were

711
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,920
saying, you can get a really bright little flashlight nowadays.

712
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,560
The one I carry is very bright and flashing somebody in the face in the dark

713
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,840
like that is enough, you know, to, uh, probably enable you to break contact and

714
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,680
get away if you're in a situation like that.

715
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,480
So flashlight's a great thing to carry.

716
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:09,520
Everybody should carry those.

717
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,480
Interrupts their OODA loop and we can talk OODA loop some other time, but that's a,

718
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,080
you know, that actually we discussed that during episode three, that's a,

719
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,560
that's a very important thing because they don't expect that.

720
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,760
In fact, I think to your point, you know, if you really kind of want to go

721
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:30,040
gear-ish on this, I think that Olight actually makes a combination, uh,

722
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,200
flashlight and OC spray holder.

723
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,840
I think I've seen that.

724
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,960
So you could kind of, you know, you think about a way to get that

725
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,400
kind of, you know, you think about a weapon light, right?

726
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,840
So now you have your, your pepper spray mounted light as well.

727
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,200
Yeah, no, and they probably do have, they just have to make sure you're,

728
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,000
you know, which button you're pushing when.

729
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:50,800
That's an excellent point.

730
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,400
I've actually made that mistake too.

731
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,560
Cause I carry the flashlight in the same pocket where the pepper spray is.

732
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,640
It's just the pepper spray is clipped and the flashlight is loose.

733
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,760
There was a night in my truck where I reached in there and looking for the

734
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,920
flashlight and my hand came out with the pepper spray that I was pushing, trying

735
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,080
to, uh, trying to light something up.

736
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,280
And how much pain were you in after that?

737
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:14,200
So that was good.

738
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,240
Fortunately, Tom, the other thing I like about Tom is there is a cover on the

739
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:21,680
button, so you actually have to slip your thumb up underneath to push this

740
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:23,400
cover up to push it.

741
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:24,000
Yeah.

742
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,200
And again, that's not foolproof either.

743
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,400
Um, I had come home one day from, um, from the range and I think when I was

744
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,840
shooting, I just, I took the pepper spray out and I threw it in the car.

745
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,320
So when I was coming in that night, I just, I picked the pepper spray,

746
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:39,560
the flashlight up, the keys.

747
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,240
I threw it all in my pocket and I came in the door and we have, I was

748
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:47,000
telling you I had pugs and we've got a little gate by the kitchen doorway.

749
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,840
And I bent over the gate to pet the pugs and I heard this hissing sound,

750
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,320
this, this just like air escaping.

751
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:55,680
I'm thinking, wow, what is that?

752
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,000
And I stood up and I, and the sound went away and I bent back over to pet the

753
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,240
pugs and I heard it again.

754
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,800
And then I felt crap.

755
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,080
The pepper spray and running out of the house and a key or something had

756
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,920
gotten into the, uh, where the button was and it pushed enough of it.

757
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,800
I don't think any spray actually came out, but the, uh, the propelling came out.

758
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:18,160
So, uh, you do have to pay attention as to how you carry it.

759
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:19,960
I guess I wouldn't carry it loose in the pocket.

760
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:20,200
Yeah.

761
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,760
Because you don't want to incapacitate yourself by virtue of spraying

762
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,800
yourself in the wrong spot, because I don't think a legitimate self defense

763
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,920
against, you know, street crime is to incapacitate them by making them laugh so

764
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,640
hard at you that they can't move.

765
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,000
So that's true.

766
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,760
You got any anecdotal stuff for us?

767
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,880
Any funny stories, things like that, either from class to the real world or

768
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,600
something like that, just as, as we draw to a close here?

769
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:46,800
Well, let's see.

770
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,800
Um, what did I give you?

771
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,480
I gave you my bartending story.

772
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,720
Um, no, uh, you know, in terms of just, you know, stuff that goes on in

773
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:57,840
class and things like that, it's, um, you know, not, not any, you know, kind

774
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,120
of funny stories, but just trying to encourage people to, to take the

775
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,640
stuff more seriously and, you know, come up with things cause like, um, you

776
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,760
know, what's nice about the pepper spray is it gives you an alternative and

777
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,160
like, you get some guys in class, you know, they'll talk about, you know,

778
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,360
empty handed skills and things like that.

779
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:14,600
Okay.

780
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:15,440
Defending yourself.

781
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,400
And, you know, I used to do martial arts when I was younger and stuff like that.

782
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,160
And, and I was pretty good at it.

783
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,000
And if I failed back then I could also run.

784
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,920
Um, but now as I get older, you know, those options are kind of going away.

785
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:30,000
You know, people need to be realistic.

786
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,600
I think about what they can do and what they can't do, you know, cause you'll,

787
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,800
you'll hear instructors, well, you could, you could punch the person in the throat.

788
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:37,640
Okay.

789
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:38,520
Yeah, I guess you could.

790
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,680
Do you ever practice that?

791
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,880
You know, you look at the average person.

792
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,160
I don't know if you've tried to throw a punch lately, but if it's not

793
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,640
something you do regularly, it's not a normal natural motion.

794
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:49,760
It feels really weird.

795
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,120
When I was doing martial arts, we threw hundreds of punches each week,

796
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,040
probably more than that.

797
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,960
Um, but now, you know, I did it just a couple of weeks ago, fooling around.

798
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,720
And that's not a, it's not a natural motion at all.

799
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,440
So, you know, I would want people to have realistic views of what they can do.

800
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,680
And, you know, what's, what's likely to work, what's not likely to work,

801
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,600
what's unreasonable, what's reasonable.

802
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,200
And now I wish I could be, I don't have a good, uh, funny

803
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,720
anecdotal story for you though.

804
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:20,160
Well, then, then you actually touched on something else that was in the show

805
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:25,320
notes, which is what misconceptions do students come in with when, before

806
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,160
they arrive in class, they're interested in taking the pepper spray class and

807
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,240
they learn something that they never would have thought of.

808
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:32,760
Yeah.

809
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,960
And probably the biggest thing, I think, in terms of the pepper spray and the

810
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,800
misconceptions is the, the idea that it may not always work and that you do

811
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,040
actually have to hit what you're shooting at, um, because like I said, we

812
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,760
use, uh, in class, you know, I give away a pepper spray to each student and I

813
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,960
also give them a little, a nerd trainer and we'll play around with the trainers

814
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,320
in class for a little bit so they can kind of see, okay, this is about how far

815
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,200
it shoots.

816
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:57,800
This is okay.

817
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,080
If you're, you know, I'll have them, uh, we get a lot of people like, uh, you

818
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,480
know, it'll be a woman will come in with her boyfriend or husband or something.

819
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,680
And I'll have them kind of shoot at each other and, um, you know, just get an

820
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,840
idea of how that is, cause it's not, you know, if you haven't tried the kind of

821
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,680
stuff, like I said, I want people to be realistic about, okay, what I can do.

822
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:16,920
Okay.

823
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,840
I've tried this inert sprayer and I know I could reasonably hit somebody at five

824
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,320
feet away or something like that.

825
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,560
So just, you know, having that realistic idea of what you can and can't do.

826
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,760
The other thing I'll do too, since, um, it's not reasonable to spray each

827
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,320
other with real pepper spray.

828
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,480
So what I'll do is, um, I'll show, uh, one of John Korea's videos and then I

829
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,480
show another video of just, of people getting sprayed.

830
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,600
So you say they'd have an idea of, okay, this is what you can expect if you

831
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:44,920
spray somebody and you hit them.

832
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,840
So it's just, I think the, uh, just the realistic expectations of what's possible.

833
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:51,760
What's not possible, but you don't do them.

834
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,480
You don't do the Marine Corps thing of, you know, spray yourself so

835
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:56,840
you can experience this.

836
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:58,280
Yeah.

837
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,240
I wish, you know, there's, there's insurance reasons and things like that.

838
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,520
So you can't really, uh, you can't really, even the classes I've taken.

839
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,800
I mean, I've taken an instructor class with Chuck Haggard or Haggard, who is,

840
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,000
um, you know, one of the authorities on training and pepper spraying stuff

841
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:13,800
across the country.

842
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,520
And even in his class, he said, yeah, I'd love to spray you, but, and we can't do

843
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:18,600
it, it's an insurance thing.

844
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,320
So, uh, so yeah, we can't really spray people, but we can show them videos

845
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:24,320
of people that got sprayed.

846
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,760
I guess that's as close as we can get.

847
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:26,240
Yeah.

848
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:26,760
I mean, sure.

849
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:27,520
I don't want to be.

850
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:28,360
Yeah.

851
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:29,800
All right.

852
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,040
Well, Joe, got anything else for us before we close up?

853
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,880
Um, no, it's about it really.

854
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,160
Um, again, I would, uh, you know, thank you for the, for the, for the

855
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,160
information that you've given us.

856
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,440
And, um, I would, uh, you know, thank you for inviting me on here.

857
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,880
Um, again, I write articles every week on, uh, on Substack at

858
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,080
getagrip.substack.com.

859
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,760
Again, so I would just encourage people to read that stuff.

860
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,080
Cause my, my whole reason for writing these articles and doing this and the

861
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,720
radio show and all that stuff is to just get information out.

862
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,040
The other stuff I do, I do for money, but, uh, this, I mean, I do this for

863
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,120
a little bit of money, but my, uh, my main thing here, especially since I got

864
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:11,600
the $500,000 in that is just, um, it's more of a, a desire to get information

865
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,400
out to people that want to learn this stuff.

866
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,360
Um, You know, have people take responsibility for their safety and the

867
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,640
safety of their families and their loved ones and then they do it right.

868
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,520
So, you know, you don't get yourself goofed up and, uh, cause

869
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:24,840
yourself a bigger problem.

870
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:25,640
Perfect.

871
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:26,320
Yeah.

872
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:26,920
All right.

873
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,280
Well, well, thanks for your time.

874
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,920
And, uh, you know, we'll, we'll be seeing you down at gun prom, but I

875
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,480
I guess we did leave one question off the table, which I think is, is worth, you

876
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,220
know, visiting before we close out.

877
00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:42,720
Most people are in our listening audience or not in San Diego.

878
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,560
How do they find a qualified?

879
00:47:44,660 --> 00:47:48,360
What are the metrics that a person would use to find a qualified trainer?

880
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,940
Because anyone can hang a shingle out and say, I train in pepper spray.

881
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,560
I train in CCW.

882
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:54,520
So on and so forth.

883
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,200
What do you look for?

884
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:55,740
Yeah.

885
00:47:55,740 --> 00:47:59,560
And I think the best thing nowadays is the old fashioned way is the word of mouth

886
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,560
thing, if you can find somebody that's taken a class with that, because you know,

887
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,640
nowadays with the websites and the web designers and stuff, you can make

888
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,120
something look really great, but you don't know.

889
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,320
And the other thing too, you know, from a student's point of view, unless you're

890
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:18,440
really, um, a little bit more experienced with this is, you know, you've heard of

891
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,620
the, the unconscious incompetence, right?

892
00:48:20,620 --> 00:48:22,040
You don't know what you don't know.

893
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:22,840
Oh yeah.

894
00:48:23,380 --> 00:48:26,400
You know, and I would, I would tell people, okay, at least, you know, okay,

895
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,720
look on their website, see what they describe, what, what topics do they hit

896
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:30,720
in their class?

897
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,560
The problem with that is again, the unconscious incompetence.

898
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,960
If you don't know what you don't know, then you don't know what to look for.

899
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:39,960
You have no idea of judging that.

900
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:41,040
Is that real?

901
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:41,800
Is that reasonable?

902
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:42,720
Is it not reasonable?

903
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:43,800
Is it, does it look good?

904
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,200
Um, so I think the best way is if you can find somebody that's taken the class

905
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,580
and there's this, had that instructor for something that that's probably the

906
00:48:52,820 --> 00:48:56,320
most secure way, the best way to find a good instructor, I think I just did

907
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:56,620
that.

908
00:48:56,620 --> 00:49:01,720
Um, when I was back in New Jersey, um, one of my cousins who she's got like a

909
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:07,040
40 acre, uh, horse branch and she has big events there and she's gotten out

910
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,160
campgrounds and stuff and she lives by herself and she just bought a gun.

911
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:16,360
She was telling me she bought a little MMP shield and, but she didn't know how

912
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,800
to use it or how to do anything with it.

913
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,280
She went, I think she went to the range once with a friend.

914
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:23,400
So I had kind of connected her with somebody back there.

915
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,080
I sent her a couple of the textbooks that I use in my classes.

916
00:49:26,580 --> 00:49:31,000
And then, um, you know, I, I talked to a friend of mine back there and had, uh,

917
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,520
him, he gave me a name of an instructor that he says is fantastic.

918
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:35,380
That's right in the area.

919
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,840
And, uh, she called the guy now and I guess she's going to take a class with

920
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,020
him in another week or two.

921
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,000
So, I mean, it's the, it's the word of mouth.

922
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,720
If you could talk to somebody that's actually had the instructor, that's

923
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:45,840
probably the safest way.

924
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:46,440
Right.

925
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:46,680
Joe.

926
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:47,360
Okay.

927
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,000
Uh, Ken, anything else for Joe?

928
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:50,160
No, that's good.

929
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,400
Joe, I really appreciate your time.

930
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:52,120
Thank you so much.

931
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:53,440
And we'll see you at gun prom.

932
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:53,840
All right.

933
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:54,560
Well, thank you guys.

934
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:55,600
I'll look for you at gun prom.

935
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:56,560
Exactly.

936
00:49:56,720 --> 00:49:56,960
Yeah.

937
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,520
So, uh, today's, uh, talk was very, very informative and very much appreciate it.

938
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,360
And once again, uh, this is Craig's and I, uh, opinion.

939
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,240
We don't play a professional on television or we're not a doctor.

940
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:11,160
We're not the lawyer.

941
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,800
We're not, this is not legal advice, but it is our, just our personal opinions

942
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,120
when they're hoping you're enjoying listening to it, Craig.

943
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,120
Yeah, that's exactly right.

944
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,720
You know, laws change, municipalities are different.

945
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:25,800
Uh, people's preferences are different.

946
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,520
What works for you, uh, even coming down to the, how you dress will tell you a

947
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:35,560
lot about what your everyday carry kit can be, um, what kind of threats you

948
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,680
face or whether you face any threats.

949
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:42,360
Honestly, the best option, you know, as Joe talked about is just don't be there.

950
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,280
And if you have to be there, try to get out of there.

951
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,480
And if you can't get out of there, then, you know, go to something else that

952
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,800
those are all important lessons that I think that people who just pick up a gun

953
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,280
and shove it in their pants and say, I'm good to go, that they just haven't

954
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,280
thought the problem through completely.

955
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,120
And that's what we're here to fix.

956
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,440
And like I said, we have upcoming shows and an expanding audience.

957
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:06,120
Who do we have?

958
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,440
Ken, did you know that now we have South Africa listening to it?

959
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,840
And did you know, and Slovenia, something I wouldn't have expected some, some

960
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,840
English speaking person in Slovenia has picked us up too.

961
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,880
So, uh, yeah, the, the, the show's getting traction.

962
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:27,480
Uh, but, but the way, the best way to get a traction, of course, is to drop a

963
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,320
comment, uh, drop a rating either on the Facebook page or an iTunes or whatever

964
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,440
podcast aggregator you use, uh, please send us comments, questions, things like that.

965
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,680
The next couple of shows are going to be product focused shows that are going to be,

966
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:44,840
we're not going to tell you who, kind of listen to find out.

967
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:48,000
Uh, but there's a couple of interesting, uh, companies that we're going to be

968
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:53,040
discussing, uh, then we'll cycle back into some of the training, um, aspects

969
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,600
of firearms ownership.

970
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,920
We're going to keep this mixed up.

971
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,360
We're going to keep this interesting, but everything is based on what's

972
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:00,320
that first word, Ken?

973
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:01,160
Frugal.

974
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:02,040
Frugal.

975
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:02,480
Yeah.

976
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,160
Enjoy yourself and save money at the same time.

977
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:24,160
So thanks for listening everyone and good night.