1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,200 doesn't matter, go by primers because that's going to be the most difficult 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,760 thing to find if you ever had a without rule of law situation or some situation 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,280 where you had to create your own ammunition. 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:38,560 The most difficult thing to find is always going to be the primers. 5 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,760 Welcome to episode six of the frugal firearms podcast, the podcast designed 6 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,880 to help you, the shooter get the most value for your money, get the most 7 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,280 enjoyment, get the most pleasure, get the most product that you can possibly 8 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,680 afford and bring it to the range, bring it out on the hunt, show to your friends. 9 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,280 Really enjoy shooting sports to the maximum for the 10 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,400 investment that you're making. 11 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:02,600 My cohost is Ken. 12 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:03,440 Say hello, Ken. 13 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:04,360 Hello everyone. 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:05,320 Listen to me in today. 15 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,680 And today's topic is what Ken? 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,680 Reloading frugal basis, sort of a thing. 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:11,400 Yeah. 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,960 Today actually, you know, Ken being my cohost actually is the guest as well 19 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:19,520 because he's the expert in reloading and I am not. 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,560 So I'm going to play the part of the ignorant interviewer and he's going to 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,560 play the part of the subject matter expert. 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,040 Everything we say here today though, is we give our common disclaimer about, 23 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,520 you know, you're responsible for any actions or decisions you take based 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,600 on the content of our show. 25 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,240 We're only representing our own opinions and nothing more than that. 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,440 None of this is legal advice, but specifically today consider safety 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,520 because reloading, you know, can get you in a world of hurt if you do it wrong. 28 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,720 So, you know, always refer to the Sammy manuals, other reloading references 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,840 and plan accordingly plan to be safe, but also get the most out of 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,120 your reloading experience. 31 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:59,560 So Ken, you know what? 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,760 Something we've never done for the listeners before. 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,680 We've never really talked about, you know, who we are. 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,480 And how we got into shooting. 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,480 So why don't you do a little bit of, you know, kind of intro yourself and maybe 36 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,680 I'll introduce myself a little bit and then we'll get into that. 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:13,560 Sure. 38 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:19,480 Um, I, um, I was never really brought up with shooting, um, with the, with the 39 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,520 exception of my, I had at my father who passed away when I was only three and a 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:29,320 half years old, he was primarily a duck hunter back on the East coast and he had 41 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,720 a lot of shotguns, a lot of side by side shotguns and so forth. 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,840 My mom was 29 years old with three kids under the age of six when she was widowed 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,160 and, um, she had his gun collection. 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,240 What happened over time was, you know, she was concerned with two boys under 45 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,680 the age of six, inquisitive boys. 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,080 We knew what guns were. 47 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,520 We've seen them on TV, uh, very interested in them. 48 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,880 Wanted to play with them and stuff and no, couldn't do any of that. 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,840 My mom had them all locked away, but over time and the fact that she needed money, 50 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:07,000 she ended up, uh, selling, uh, pretty much all of my dad's firearms collection, 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,160 which is kind of always saddened me, uh, over time, uh, a lot of his side by 52 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:13,840 sides and went, went, went away. 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,880 And, um, there was only one firearm that was retained, which was the last 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,600 firearm that was given to him by his father, my grandfather, which was a, uh, 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:29,800 a Saco or Saco Bixson, uh, in 222, Remington, very beautiful firearm. 56 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,920 I'm fortunate to have it today. 57 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:37,280 And it fires the 222, um, which if anybody knows, it's also known as the triple deuce. 58 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,320 It was an incredibly accurate bench, uh, rifle still is today. 59 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,000 And it was the case and cartridge that was used for the five, five, six military. 60 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,840 The 223 and the five, five, six military were based on the, on the 61 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,720 222, uh, Remington cartridge. 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,240 It came out about 1950 or something like that. 63 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,000 And that was used. 64 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,440 So all of the M16s and all those two, two, three, five, five, six ammo, and all 65 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:10,640 your AR platforms, those all come, uh, because of the, uh, the 222 Remington. 66 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,240 And actually the first ARs that were ever built by Armalite, uh, were built in, 67 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,640 uh, 222 Remington. 68 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,920 And I actually about 35 years ago, had a chance of actually buying one of those. 69 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,760 And idiot, I didn't do it. 70 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:29,000 I should have picked up one of those early AR, uh, semi-autos in 222 Remington. 71 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,160 It would have been very interesting. 72 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,880 So let me ask you a question based on that, because, um, you know, for our 73 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,320 listeners, just background, Ken and I have a somewhat different perspective on, 74 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,160 on collecting, if you will, guns. 75 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:43,640 You have a lot more than I do. 76 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,800 And it is part of that last statement is that, you know, because of the 77 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:53,480 regret, maybe sort of a FOMO thing, you know, fear of missing out that now you 78 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,360 are inclined to buy things that probably I would not be inclined to buy. 79 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,120 I mean, over time, uh, I had the opportunity of, you know, talking to my 80 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,360 uncles, uh, who, who knew my dad and, uh, and they would say, Oh, you know, your 81 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:14,320 dad had a 16 gauge side by side, uh, I think Stevens or, or, or 82 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,920 Stirling worth or something, and, um, I was like, gotta get a 16 gauge side by 83 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:20,280 side. 84 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:25,720 So I own a 16 gauge side by side, even though 16 gauge is kind of a, it's more 85 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,520 unusual gauge by today's standards. 86 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,680 It's not as popular, but it was, but that's a really good one to, I mean, not 87 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,520 that we want to segue right this moment into talking about reloading, which is, 88 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,040 you know, the central topic today, but that's probably one you would need to 89 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,360 reload to be able to make it affordable to use. 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:42,880 Yeah. 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:43,920 To make it affordable. 92 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:44,160 Yeah. 93 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:45,320 I mean, they do sell it. 94 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,480 You can't find it at the big box stores, 16 gauge. 95 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,800 It's still there because they made a ton of 16 gauge shotguns back in the early 96 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,360 part of the 20th century. 97 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,120 And I think there are even still a few manufacturers that are chambering in 98 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,200 that they call it the sweet 16. 99 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,960 It's a gauge, which is halfway between a, a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge. 100 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:12,000 Uh, it had a lot more use back in the day because there were, there actually 101 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,400 were probably more differences, but in today's loadings of both 20 gauge and 102 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,400 12 gauge, you can, they pretty much overlap or they're very close to overlapping. 103 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,480 So the 16 gauge kind of got squeezed out, but it's, it's kind of a classic, 104 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,040 uh, classic gauge and whenever I do take it out and shoot with it, it is a 105 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:30,240 nostalgic piece for me. 106 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:31,520 And I really liked that. 107 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,400 So, and I've done that other things. 108 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:39,000 He had, um, a supermatic, uh, semi-automatic 22 target pistol from high 109 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,080 standard, and that was sold off and I acquired another one of those. 110 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:49,040 And again, it's an original from about 1958 or 59, beautiful pistol. 111 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,040 I came with the original box of the one I got. 112 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,840 Ultimately, the one that you got that was, I think to you, the most important 113 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:59,760 was, was representative of what your dad carried in the war, right? 114 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:00,200 Oh yeah. 115 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:00,760 Yes. 116 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:01,440 Yeah. 117 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:07,960 My dad carried the, uh, a BAR in Korea and got two bronze stars, uh, for 118 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:13,560 Valor, uh, with a, with a BAR Browning Automatic Rifle model, 1918. 119 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,240 And of course, since that's a, generally speaking, a fully automatic firearm, 120 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,320 uh, and can't be purchased here. 121 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:26,200 Um, they do make a variant called the Browning, uh, BAR 1918A3, which is 122 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,720 a semi-automatic firearm. 123 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,560 It's basically made with a new receiver, but basically made on all original 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,440 parts, original barrel, original stock, a lot of the, a lot of the components, 125 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,000 a bipod and so forth are all original pieces that came off of either, uh, mainly 126 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,160 World War II and Korean, uh, Korean War era type things. 127 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,840 And it's a semi-automatic 30-06, fires from a closed bolt. 128 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:54,680 So it has much of the same feel as if you were watching Band of Brothers, um, 129 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,240 same firepower basically, but semi-automatic and, uh, and closed bolt. 130 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,560 It's actually super accurate, incredibly accurate. 131 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,160 People are floored by the accuracy of that rifle. 132 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,840 It weighs 18 pounds unloaded and loaded. 133 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,200 It's like 22 pounds. 134 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,360 And that's part of the experience of having that gun, which is it's the same 135 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:14,680 weight. 136 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:15,560 Oh yeah. 137 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:21,560 And you have to, you have to really put your, take your hat off to the people who 138 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:27,240 carried that firearm, uh, in combat, both in World War II, actually starting in 139 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,800 World War I and then World War II. 140 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,840 And of course in Korea and actually was used all the way up through Vietnam. 141 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:38,280 Um, and, uh, you occasionally even see one showing up on the, uh, on the news 142 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,880 in the Philippines or something like that. 143 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,000 It's, it's fascinating. 144 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:41,480 Right. 145 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:41,640 Yeah. 146 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,360 I think by contrast, the difference with me, I mean, to tell you the truth, you 147 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,920 were there as a friend right at the beginning of my gun experience, Ken and I, 148 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,880 our first common interest was actually in cars. 149 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,800 Uh, and, and that was, uh, preceded by years before guns. 150 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,920 And I think that some point you said, you know, you should get into guns or 151 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:01,240 something. 152 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,760 I don't remember exactly what the, what the tipping point for me was. 153 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:05,560 Perhaps you do. 154 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:11,560 I don't happen to remember that, but all of my purchases have been sort of to 155 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,200 fulfill a specific purpose or niche. 156 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:20,040 So my collection is smaller because if I don't perceive that a gun doesn't do 157 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,400 something different or better than another gun that I already have, then I 158 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,440 don't buy it. 159 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,720 So, you know, 160 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,040 Whereas I, my philosophy is different. 161 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,960 I look at things and go, now that's a really weird and unusual design. 162 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,080 I need that. 163 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:33,400 Right. 164 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,000 I need that to add to my collection because I mean, they didn't make very 165 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:37,640 many of those. 166 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,320 That's a really strange looking thing. 167 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,000 And you know, odd, odd action to it or something about it's different, very 168 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,600 different, but I'm intrigued by it. 169 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,280 I'll buy one sometimes too. 170 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,320 And I did insert the word quote, I need that deliberately because I've heard you 171 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,280 say that any number of times, like Ken, why do you need that? 172 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,120 Like, and the question is, 173 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:57,880 You need a roof over your head. 174 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:58,680 You need food. 175 00:09:58,680 --> 00:09:59,720 You need water. 176 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,760 The question is, how many firearms do you need? 177 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,040 Oh, that's very easy. 178 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,320 Easy question to answer. 179 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,920 It's one or two more than I currently have. 180 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:09,960 It's the answer to that question. 181 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,760 And for anybody who's a collector, they ask a collector, how many of those 182 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:15,720 things do you need? 183 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:17,960 And it's always one or two more than I have. 184 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,800 I have a friend who collects bass guitars and he has electric bass guitars. 185 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,040 And I go, how many, he's got like 15 of them. 186 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:24,680 How many you need? 187 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,240 And he's like, I need one or two more than I have. 188 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:27,640 Okay. 189 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,080 Everyone's a little different. 190 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:29,800 There you go. 191 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:30,120 Right. 192 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:30,600 There you go. 193 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,160 So that leads us into the discussion, the primary discussion today, 194 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,760 which is reloading and how you can be frugal. 195 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,640 And actually you've, you've touched on this before, Ken, 196 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,800 getting better results via the reloading route. 197 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,960 And, and so what I want to talk about as the, you know, the person who doesn't 198 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,000 reload, doesn't have reloading equipment in all honesty. 199 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,720 I'm not just, I'm not just playing the ignorant card here. 200 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,640 I am ignorant. 201 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,120 So, uh, I'm going to ask questions that might seem a little elemental, but, uh, 202 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,520 I'm assuming that some of our, our listeners also don't have that background as well. 203 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,960 So I'll start off just, you know, since we were talking history, so 204 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,560 based on your firearms journey, what led you to reloading? 205 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:19,240 Was it boredom or was it a need for a better round or was it a need to save money or something else? 206 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:25,640 It was probably a need to save money and a need to be somewhat self-reliant, not have to rely upon 207 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,160 because as I say, I got a bunch of unusual calibers and, uh, it's very difficult to get 208 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:36,920 factory loaded ammunition on some of these things, but I always tell people save your brass because 209 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:44,200 your brass, most pieces of brass can be reloaded anywhere from 10 to 30 or 40 times. 210 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:51,080 It depends on the pressure and stuff. So a lot of it was, you know, I would get a certain amount of 211 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,960 brass and then from there it would be, okay, I can reload that thing, you know, 10 times. 212 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,600 So if you have a hundred pieces of brass and you can reload it 10 times, you really have a thousand 213 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,320 pieces you could go out and shoot really by the time you needed more stuff. And I didn't want to 214 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:13,160 rely upon the supply chain because we've had runs on, runs on various, uh, ammunition things when 215 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:20,200 we had different presidential elections and so forth. There's been runs on ammunition and you 216 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:27,320 couldn't get it. And the prices have gone up astronomically from when you and I started shooting. 217 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:33,320 Do you mean in reloading supplies or in factory made ammunition? Are you talking about both? 218 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:39,800 I'm talking about both, but historically we used to be able to get a single round of 22 long rifle 219 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,960 for about a penny around. Now they're about 10 cents around. I mean, granted we've been 220 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:50,360 shooting for 30 plus years, but you know, it's gone up dramatically. A primer, your typical 221 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:55,240 rifle primer or pistol primer, they come in different sizes. They're small, they're small 222 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:00,680 pistols, small, small rifle, and then there's large pistol and large rifle. There are bunches 223 00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:05,400 of variations on it, but I mean, they were typically around two cents, three cents a piece. 224 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:11,640 Now they're typically around 12 cents a piece, 10, 12 cents a piece. So sometimes less, 225 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,680 sometimes more depends on what it is, but they've gone up significantly. A pound of gun powder 226 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:24,360 used to routinely be about 20 bucks at the gun show, about 20, 21, $22. Now ranging anywhere 227 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:30,840 from 35 to $50 a pound. And you've looked recently, these are relatively recent prices. 228 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:36,120 Yeah, relatively recent prices. Wow. Now is that because we're in California or, or did you say 229 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:41,800 that that's partly that is California, but I mean, you know, we're going to be somewhat skewed 230 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,680 because we're out here on the left coast and we, we experienced the prices that are out here on the 231 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:51,880 left coast, which are higher, I grant you than most of the other parts of the country, but 232 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,440 nonetheless, um, and there have been runs on primers, for example, primers were very, very 233 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,920 difficult to get ahold of and that included by the main, by the ammunition manufacturers, but 234 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,520 surprisingly some ammunition manufacturers making factory ammunition, uh, don't make their own 235 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:13,560 primers and they rely upon actually a fairly small number Remington CCI. Right. And then there are 236 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:19,000 some overseas ones that come out there that from, you know, Europe and stuff. So primers were very 237 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,560 difficult to get, get. And the first one, I first started getting into reloading and somebody said 238 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,640 to me, he says, if you go to a gun show and you walk around, you bring in a couple of hundred bucks 239 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,480 with you or whatever you're going to spend and buy some stuff. He says, at the end of the show, 240 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,600 if you got 20 or 30, 40 bucks left in your pocket that you hadn't spent, cause you didn't find what 241 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,560 you're looking for, go over and buy some primers. I'd be like, but you know, I'm not really even that 242 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:47,400 into reloading yet. He goes, does matter. Go buy primers because that's going to be the most 243 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,360 difficult thing to find. If you ever had a, without rule of law situation or some sort of thing, 244 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,720 situation where you had to create your own ammunition, the most difficult thing to find 245 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:03,160 is always going to be the primers powder. You can, you can burn all sorts of things. Heck, 246 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,520 you can make your own black powder in your house. You know, I mean, there's lots of YouTube videos 247 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,240 on how to create black powder and that type of thing. So finding something to burn is not, 248 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:19,320 that's the problem. Igniting it reliably with a primer is the most single, most difficult thing. 249 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:25,240 So I started collecting primers, you know, just as get a box here and it used to buy them a box of 250 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,680 a thousand, you know, and get a box of a thousand for like 25, 30 bucks. Now a box of a thousand 251 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:36,440 when you buy the a hundred bucks, you know, sort of a dime a piece. So what's the economics. So 252 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:41,800 let's, let's talk about, you know, when you're going to build this bullet or round, I should say 253 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,800 from the bullet, the primer, the powder and the case. Yep. Four components that make up a 254 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:56,040 cartridge. As, as a function of a factory load, what do you expect to spend as a percentage? 255 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,880 Okay. Or, or, or is that the wrong argument? No, no, no, it varies. Now say for example, 256 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,440 you were talking about making your own or reloading your own nine millimeter. Well, nine millimeters, 257 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:13,000 the single most popular center fire, handgun cartridge in the world. Okay. They make gazillions 258 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:20,120 of them, right? You can buy a thousand rounds now for around 350 bucks for a thousand or 35 cents 259 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:25,480 a piece. That's the typical factory price, even in California right now. And then that price had been 260 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,840 higher and it's been coming down a little bit, which is good, but 35 cents. If you're going to 261 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:36,760 be reloading nine millimeter, the argument is I just want range ammo, plinking ammo, just to go 262 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,480 in and practice and stuff like that. It could be more of a hard sell to say, no, I'm going to 263 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,960 reload my own just because the amount of time you're going to be invested in and you've got to get 264 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:51,320 the components and so forth. Uh, I mean, you might be able to make your own round force. Let's say, 265 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,280 assuming you already had the brass, you got to clean the brass, you know, clean up, put new powder, 266 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:02,600 new primer. So, uh, primer is going to run, you say eight cents, eight cents for a primer powder. 267 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,160 You know, I don't know. That's probably 10 cents in there, say up to 18 cents and the bullet's 268 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:12,440 going to cost you a dime. Uh, depends on what, just a range bullet, nothing special, maybe 11, 269 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,880 12 cents. So you're already up to, you know, pretty close to 30 cents. Okay. But you can buy 270 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,560 a factory loaded piece of ammunition, like 35 cents. So if you're talking about nine millimeter 271 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,120 to reload, yes, I think you should be able to do it. Yes, I think you should have the components 272 00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:33,320 to do it at home, but can you make a case where you absolutely positively have to reload nine? 273 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:39,880 No. Now you start talking the rifle cartridges, uh, or some of the more unusual cartridges, 274 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:45,800 you know, you got yourself a British 303N field bolt action rifle from the world war two, or you 275 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:52,280 got yourself a, a 30, 30, the Winchester lever action. Okay. Now you're talking that those rounds 276 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:59,560 of ammunition are costing factory loaded ammunition or dollar, sometimes $2 a round for some of those. 277 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:06,680 Now you absolutely can make a much better financial decision reloading it yourself. Even some of like 278 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:16,520 the 44 magnums or the, uh, uh, some of the more unusual handgun cartridges, the economics of it 279 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:23,320 are definitely there. Plus, and what you alluded to Craig earlier was the ability to create your own 280 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:29,480 custom load because every firearms, you had two identical firearms, two identical rifles that came 281 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:35,160 off the factory and you both took them to the range and you started playing with the loads, the same 282 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:41,320 exact rifle, same caliber, same barrel twist rate. Everything's identical, two identical rifles. 283 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,360 You take them to the range and begin shooting them next to each other using loads that start 284 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:51,640 differing by like a 10th of a grain or one grain of powder this way or that way. You'll find out 285 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:57,800 that each rifle will have better accuracy on probably different loads. They'll be close, 286 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,120 but they'll be different. So every firearm is slightly different. It's slightly different. 287 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,760 The chambers are different. The barrels are different. It just, it different. And if you're 288 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,640 going to go for absolute accuracy, you're going to become a bench rest shooter or you're shooting 289 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:20,600 for a hunting round where you you're going to take a 700 yard shot at a bull moose, you know, 290 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,200 or something like this, you really want the distance, then you're going to want to reload 291 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,200 and you're going to want to do it yourself. And you're going to probably build specifically 292 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:34,680 right onto that rifle where that cartridge may function in other firearms of the same caliber, 293 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,440 but it's going to function best in your particular rifle. And that's where hand loading really comes 294 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,720 in. All right. So let's talk about, you know, you've got me interested, right? So, but I'm 295 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:52,440 going to rely on you, but not everyone has you as a resource. So for, for listeners who are interested 296 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,320 in pursuing this because they see the benefit and they see the economics behind it. So kind of scale 297 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,400 the investment here. If, if a person wants to, like, you can start off with this, you know, 298 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:06,280 a single station and you can, you know, move up to progressives and things like that. I mean, 299 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:11,160 how would you, I mean, assuming that, you know, again, this is the frugal firearms podcast, 300 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,880 and we're assuming that most of our listeners are going to not write the check for, you know, the 301 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:21,800 best thing that they can find from the most expensive provider. How would you approach, 302 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:28,120 you know, scaling up the investment process? The entry level one, I would probably start out with, 303 00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:33,640 just to see if you like this by a hundred primers. Okay. That's going to run you about 10 bucks. 304 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,160 Okay. You get a hundred primers, you're probably getting down to supporting good stores, something 305 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:42,760 like that. They sell them in packs of a hundred, 500 and a thousand. Okay. And 5,000 actually too, 306 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,520 but you probably just come by a hundred and it's going to be a little tiny pack, about four inches 307 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,400 square. And it's going to be a hundred primers and make sure you get the proper ones. It'll be small 308 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:56,360 pistol, you know, Magnum pistol, large, large pistol, large rifle. Make sure you get the right 309 00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:01,400 one for the cartridge that you're going to try to reload. Great. Let's call it, let's call it a 310 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,280 diamond piece. You've hopefully been saving your brass, your range brass. You've been shooting at 311 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,240 the range and picking that stuff up and saving it, which I would encourage everyone to save 312 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,280 for several reasons. Obviously the most pieces of brass are worth anywhere from eight cents to, 313 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:22,120 you know, or more up to a dollar or more, some of the more unusual rounds. So it's always save your 314 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:28,120 brass and you can trade the brass. Even if you're not a reloader, you go to a gun show with a whole 315 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:34,280 bag full of 30 out of six brass that's been once fired. You can walk up to a table and go, Hey, 316 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,320 um, I need some loaded ammunition or kind of, you know, some factory ammunition. I trade you some of 317 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:45,000 these. And most of the time the guys behind the table will say, absolutely, because they know that 318 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,160 reloaders are going to be there doing it. So, okay, you buy yourself a hundred primers, okay, 10 bucks 319 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:57,480 and then go out and, and, uh, probably buy one pound of powder. Let's call it 30 bucks. And again, 320 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,680 before you do any of this, you probably got to look up on a website or a book. You're going to 321 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:08,280 come up with basically a recipe and you're going to pick one of the recipes that have been tried 322 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:14,120 and true. There's, they're on the website, uh, Hornady Hodgkin has some websites that do it. 323 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:19,560 And they basically have, I'm going to call them recipes for creating a loaded cartridge. 324 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,520 Are those, are those reliable enough to not just from a performance perspective, but do they need 325 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,960 to look at the, you know, the Sammy guidelines to say that the round is, is quote unquote safe 326 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,880 based on the component tree, the load and so on. I mean, is that, yeah. I mean, I would say that 327 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:43,400 that would probably be at a minimum standard, you'd want to know that it has passed muster that way. 328 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:50,680 Correct. I mean, you basically can, your, whatever you reload, you never start at the maximum. 329 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:58,600 Um, you always start at the minimum, way down, way down at the minimum. And you work your way up 330 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,640 by a 10th of a grain or a grain, depending on the thing. Let me tell you a little bit about grains. 331 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:10,440 Powder, modern powder, actually even old powder, but powder is measured in grains. 332 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:17,560 It's one of those throwbacks to the English system prior to the metric system. And we have pounds 333 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:23,000 instead of kilos and all the rest of stuff. So you buy a pound of powder. So how many grains 334 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:29,000 are in a pound? That's an interesting question. Well, it's a seventh thousandth of a, is it seven 335 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,920 thousandth of a, yes, right. It's one seven thousandth of a pound. And you're like, what, 336 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:42,920 what drunkard picked one seven thousandth of a, of a pound to equal a grain. Okay. I don't know who 337 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:48,920 did it, but it was done, you know, centuries ago. And that's what we're stuck with. So, so, uh, 338 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,480 I think it had an agricultural reference, didn't it? To like grains of rice. I mean, 339 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:59,080 like a carrot is actually based on a seed. So it's, it's, it's along those lines. I would get 340 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,560 anybody by now, probably half our listeners have already pulled up Wikipedia and already have the 341 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:08,440 answer. So right. They probably have the answers now back in the day when we only had black powder, 342 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:14,120 just as like prior to like, you know, year 1900, okay. When things mean a lot, most firearms are 343 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:21,960 still using black powder. Black powder was measured not by weight, was measured volumetrically. 344 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:29,000 So they measured it by volume. So black powder was measured by volume. Okay. Modern powders, 345 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:35,560 because the chemistry and the chemists have gotten really good at being able to get a lot of energy 346 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:44,360 into a much lighter and smaller amount of powder. That's not, modern powders are not measured 347 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:50,440 volumetrically. They are measured by grains, by weight. So it's very important that when you 348 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:58,280 start reloading, the single most important thing you have to do is to make sure that you have the 349 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:05,880 proper weight of the powder or whatever the charge is that you're putting into it. And the 350 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,680 differences can be stark. Like there's a particular powder that I like for reloading handgun ammunition 351 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:19,160 for both 38 special, 357 Magnum, nine millimeter, all of that stuff, which is called tight group. 352 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:25,400 Okay. All right. Well, tight group, I load, I reload like my 38 special in it. And a light 353 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:33,880 load and 38 specialist 2.7 grains and a heavier load would be like a 3.5 grains. So one pound of 354 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:45,640 powder, okay. At 3.5 grains would allow me to reload 2000 rounds of 38 special. 2000 rounds out 355 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,960 of one single pound of powder. So you're like, wow, that's an amazing thing. Nine millimeter, 356 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,360 you know, uses a little more powder because higher pressure and stuff like that. But since the 357 00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:03,240 chemistry is so good on the modern powders, it's absolutely critical that you don't overcharge or 358 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:08,360 put too much powder in because you can literally grenade, turn it, turn your handgun into a hand 359 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:14,360 grenade. And you can watch YouTube videos where people have put the wrong powder in. They thought 360 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:19,400 they were putting in a certain brand and a certain type of powder in there and they picked the wrong 361 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,720 one. All the powders burn at different rates and they have different expansions. They expand at a 362 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,520 different rate because they are technically a propellant or I guess you call them a class one 363 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,480 explosive or whatever. They're not a high explosive. They're a low explosive. I think that's the 364 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,720 difference. But a powder is a propellant really. And the propellants burn at different rates and 365 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,680 expand at different rates. And it's absolutely critical. The single most important thing that 366 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,440 you have to do in reloading is make sure that the weight is proper, which is why you usually want 367 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:56,280 to get a really good scale. Now they've got scales that are little mechanical tipping scales. They do 368 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:02,440 work. But I would tend not to use a mechanical scale, although they do function. You can get one 369 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:09,320 of these digital scales. You can get them for 30 bucks or something on Amazon. Zillions of brands, 370 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,320 they have test weights that you sit on there. You put it on a little scale that says, oh yeah, 371 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:19,880 that's 10 grains or whatever it is. You zero it out. You calibrate your scale every time before 372 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:27,480 you use it, that type of thing. That all works great. So again, if you learn nothing else, 373 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:34,280 the most important thing is that you have a good, I'm going to call it recipe for your reload, 374 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:40,120 which means that it's a certain caliber. It's a certain type of primer. It's a certain exact 375 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:45,400 certain type of powder, because powders are all very different. It's not just the weight of the 376 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,520 powder. It's that you know that this is a tight group powder or this is a, there are probably 50 377 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,960 to 75 different powders that you can probably purchase. And whatever recipe that you've gotten 378 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:03,400 from either a book or from a website, you have to stick with it and start very low on that scale, 379 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,400 low amount of powder. And then if you need to work your way up, you can work your way up a little 380 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:13,240 tiny bit at a time, but you'll learn that over time. Yeah. Well, or you'll learn it one way or 381 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:20,040 the other. What would you say would be then as far as the reloading equipment? So now we've talked 382 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,600 about, I mean, maybe we were, you know, beyond the scope of this show would be bullet choice, 383 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,160 because that has a lot to do with terminal ballistics and things like that. And the purpose 384 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:35,800 of the round, and this could get three dimensional very, very quickly. But let's talk a little bit 385 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:41,320 about the actual reloading presses, you know, going from single stage all the way up through 386 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,800 progressives. Initially, if a person were interested in getting into reloading and they're 387 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:51,080 going to try it like a handgun or a rifle or a loader or loading, and they want to go in totally 388 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:57,080 cheaply, there's something called a Lee loader, L E E loader, and they've been making these for decades. 389 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:04,600 And this is for a lot of people, their first way into, into reloading, they actually don't require 390 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:10,440 a press at all. You require a tap hammer, and that's about it. It's a little kit, they sell them on, 391 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,520 on Amazon, they're roughly around 40 bucks or so for whatever caliber you're looking for. 392 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:22,120 And you can actually create reloadable usable ammunition for about 40 bucks. And this is a, 393 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:28,120 is a kit that you can also, you know, wrap up and toss into your, you know, your backpack or 394 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,840 something. If you were going out into the forest, you can actually reload in the field with this as 395 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,360 well without having to have, have a lot. So the company Lee, L E E, I actually have a huge amount 396 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:44,600 of respect for. They are both a budget entry level sort of a company, but they also have a ton of 397 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:50,200 patents and they've been in it for longer than probably most other reloading companies. And 398 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,440 they make very quality stuff and I'm very happy about that. But I would consider going with a Lee 399 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:02,040 loader at first and would probably send people off to YouTube. And there are a bunch of YouTube 400 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:07,160 videos on how to use a Lee loader. It's a nice thing to have, even if you don't like want to 401 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,320 reload in the field or something like that, but it's a, it's a very tiny package. The thing comes 402 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:18,680 in about a six inch by five inch by one inch thick little box. All you need is your primers, you need 403 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,480 some powder and you need your bullets that you're going to all be buying at the local sporting goods 404 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:30,520 store and a scale of course, the most carefully measure the amount of powder and the exact type 405 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,680 of powder you're going to be using because you've already gotten an approved recipe that you've 406 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,440 gotten off the internet or something. So a Lee loader is not a bad way for a person to start. 407 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040 But you also need dyes though, don't you? Because you have to get the seat depth. 408 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,320 You don't need the Lee loader. The Lee loader is the Lee loaders are unique to each, um, 409 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:53,720 to each caliber. Oh, okay. So it's, it's essentially the dye is already built into the product. Okay. 410 00:30:53,720 --> 00:31:00,120 Yeah. So as you get into, for real now, if you get into other, like a traditional bench mounted 411 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:06,760 press, then you're talking about dyes that can be, well, obviously can expand geometrically 412 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,640 according to your interest in, in, in how you want, how many different calibers you want and so on 413 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,400 and so forth. Where would you say sort of the wise investment is the next step up? Again, 414 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:23,240 I would stick with Lee Lee makes a bunch of very interesting tools that, uh, reloading tools that 415 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,240 I think, uh, if you're just getting into it and want to see if you like it or not, 416 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,040 or if you just think you want to be able to reload, but only in the case of an emergency type of deal 417 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,680 where you want to know how to do it, but you don't necessarily want to do it every time. 418 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,680 There are some people who poo poo Lee. Oh, you know, you only have Lee, but that's not true. 419 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,400 These guys are really good at what they do. And to be honest with you, if all you ever owned in 420 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,200 your life was Lee equipment, you'd be doing just great. There's no problem with it at all. So 421 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,800 anyway, we talked about the Lee loader as kind of being entry level one or a field field reloading. 422 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,000 And if it's something that I would consider buying, they're about $40 for Lee loader, 423 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,000 get them probably used on eBay and stuff. They make them for decades and decades. 424 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,200 Uh, and it's a way to get into reloading to try it out. You like it, you don't like it. 425 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,520 I totally understand one way or the other, but it's also nice thing to have in case, uh, 426 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,320 you can't find ammunition and you have the ability to create your own. That's always a possible thing. 427 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:28,040 The next step up is another Lee product. Um, it seems like I'm, I, we always probably get Lee on 428 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,600 the, on the, I was going to say, I didn't know this was going to turn into an advertisement for Lee. 429 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,680 I mean, I'm just saying, I really liked their stuff. Uh, the next step up was they have a hand 430 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,520 press, which is kind of like this little, uh, it looks like a kind of giant nutcracker type of a 431 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,960 deal. And it lets you put in standard dies and a Lee hand press, uh, is where you're actually going 432 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,640 to step up to a set of dies. When you buy a set of, uh, reloading dies, you buy them for a caliber 433 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:58,280 specific and they are precision machined. Oftentimes they have, uh, you know, high, high speed 434 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,560 steel and carbide components to it. And then it's the best way you can, it's the way you can get the 435 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:11,400 absolute closest to a factory load than anything else is with, with a set of, uh, of actual dies. 436 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:19,240 So, and a set of dies will run you anywhere from 50 to $75, uh, depending on the caliber type of 437 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,360 deal. And there are oftentimes there are different types of dies and we can go into that as well. 438 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,960 There's full length dies. There's, there's a neck only dies, you know, there's, so there's a lot of 439 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,600 variation and they're interesting and we can, we could talk about that for a while, but anyway, 440 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:35,960 you're going to need a set of dies. 441 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,440 How much does it take to offset the cost? I mean, if you're talking $75 just for a die, 442 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,320 for one caliber, then I guess we'll all let people do their own math about that. 443 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,280 That's a consideration of where the return on investment. 444 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,440 Yeah. So not only do you need the, the, the primers, the powder and the bullets. Okay. 445 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,800 Those are going to, you're going to need those anyway. You're now going to need, 446 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,560 okay, you're going to set up, uh, get a set of dies. Okay. Let's call it, um, 447 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,560 50 to $60. Okay. Let's call it $60 for a set of really quality dies. Okay. Great. 448 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080 Then you're going to need some sort of a press and that's going to be like a hand press, 449 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:16,680 which is going to be probably $75. It's called $75. Um, and so you start adding up those costs 450 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,560 and yes, you're, you're thinking, well, gee, that's, that's a big investment. Yeah. You're, 451 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,360 you're approaching, you're over a hundred bucks now. You're probably getting closer to $200 for 452 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,960 your investment. And what are you buying for that? Well, if you're just going to be doing range ammo 453 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,880 and nine millimeter stuff may not be, may not be an investment you want to make. However, 454 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,640 if it's something that you're going to sit there and go, well, I got kind of a more unusual, 455 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:48,760 I got a 30, 30, I got a center fire or 308 or a 30 at six or two 70 or some, uh, you know, 456 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:55,720 more unusual one. I think it's, it becomes your investment at that point in time, your $200 457 00:34:55,720 --> 00:35:01,800 investment becomes something where this is a good thing because you can then start, uh, reloading 458 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:08,360 your own and then making the custom ammunition that allows you to tune it specifically to your 459 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,680 rifle for either a light load. If you don't want to do something to rip your shoulder off on some 460 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,200 of these Magnum rounds, or you just want a plinking round, something you just want to punch holes in 461 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,400 paper with or whatever it might be. It's the ability to create the exact one that you, the 462 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,840 load that you want for your particular handgun or rifle. And also the fact that you now have the 463 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:35,400 ability to create your own ammunition, provided of course, you have some commercially available 464 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:41,080 components like the primers and the powder and the bullets and, uh, you know, all of those things, 465 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,760 you can make yourself at home as well, but you're really getting kind of an esoteric, 466 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,680 the vast majority of reloaders never do any of that. Well, actually, but, you know, 467 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:56,280 what someone does do that, that we, that we've been in contact with, uh, not to be named right now, 468 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,800 but there's a potential guest coming up on the show who reached out to us, who is interested in, 469 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,000 he does exactly that. He makes his own ammunition now sells it commercially. 470 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,200 Yeah, it can absolutely be done. Um, so when you're making ammunition, you mentioned it 471 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,120 commercially, when you're making ammunition, you're really making it for yourself, for your 472 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:21,640 own consumption at this point in time, because if you mess it up, um, and you sell it, you're 473 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,280 selling it commercially and somebody, you give it, make it too hot a load or something like that. 474 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,520 Somebody else puts it in their gun and blows it up and purchase themselves. Well, you're, 475 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:36,680 you know, you've got a liability there, but reloading is, is really done primarily as an 476 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,560 individual or maybe a family type of thing. Somebody you trust, but, uh, it's not something 477 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:47,640 that you, you, you should always be very concerned that if you're buying reloaded ammunition, that 478 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:53,080 you buy from a reputable source or from somebody, you know, who makes reputable ammunition because. 479 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,480 So let's, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, because you can't be making a hand grenade. 480 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,480 You can, you it's done wrong with the wrong pattern, too much of it or whatever. 481 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,200 You have a hand grenade in your hand, literally. So tell me now, let's go to the other end of the 482 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:14,680 scale. Someone, you know, says, cool, I'm, I'm all in, but I don't want to do the progressive 483 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,480 investments of start with a single stage and then go up to a three stage and then so on, so on, so 484 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,280 on. Uh, what do you get if you go right for the top end? Because, you know, maybe there's an 485 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,240 efficiency argument there that I know I'm going to want to do this, but I'm not going to, like I 486 00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:34,040 mentioned before, use the reloading press as a substitute for going to the gym. And I'm not 487 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:40,520 going to stand there and do multiple swipes per round. So tell us about the progressive reloaders. 488 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,480 Okay. At the high end of the scale, Craig's talking about is the progressive reloaders and the, and 489 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:52,040 there are several manufacturers who make them, but many people consider Dylan to be the gold 490 00:37:52,040 --> 00:38:00,840 standard up there. And you're, you're now in that 1500 to $3,000 reloading press range. 491 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,600 For really, Oh, I didn't know there were that much. Oh yeah. I mean, they've got a stuff, 492 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,760 some that are a little bit less, maybe around a grand, but when you start getting up there 493 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:17,240 and you get automatic case feeders and automatic bullet feeders and priming stations and powder 494 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:22,360 checkers that check and weigh the powder and you know, you're now at a commercial, it's one pull 495 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,920 of the handle. You're getting one round out and that this is at the high end of the scale. So yeah, 496 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:32,680 you can spend, you know, $3,000, $4,000 to get yourself completely set up on a, what's called a, 497 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,920 you know, a progressive press. You know, it's great, great tool, but you really have to then say, 498 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,480 is that the type of shooter I am? Am I really putting, you know, a thousand rounds down range 499 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,280 every month that I need to come home and do it? Most people aren't, they're going to start 500 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,160 frugally, shall we say, and they're going to start at that low end of the scale and they'll 501 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:58,200 advance. They'll move things up. Let me give you an example of this. One of the things that you want 502 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:03,800 to do with your brass is you want to clean it. Okay. So one of the first ways, I mean, you can 503 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,920 clean it by tossing it into your, into your, put it in a special bag and put it into your dishwasher 504 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,520 and it cleans it up reasonably well. But in reality, most people, the first thing they do is they 505 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,600 get a vibratory cleaner. They get a little, they still have harbor freight, they vibrate, 506 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:24,600 they get little containers, they vibrate and you put in, typically speaking, crushed walnut shells 507 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,720 inside of it. And then you toss your brass into it and the thing just vibrates away for an hour or 508 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:35,160 two and it just rubs all those little pieces of walnut shell all over your brass and it polishes 509 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,320 them up. And in an hour or two later, you take that thing out and it looks gorgeous. It looks 510 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,120 beautiful. It's, I mean, it's polished brass, just like somebody sat there and polished it amazing. 511 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,840 So when you do that, that's, that's like one of the first things for cleaning a brass when you want 512 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:56,840 to clean a hundred cases or maybe, maybe 200 cases of brass. You've got to toss into your vibratory 513 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:02,280 cleaner, turn it on, set the timer, go watch a movie on TV, come back in a couple hours and 514 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:08,200 take them out and then they got to separate the media, the cleaning media out from the brass cases. 515 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:14,040 It's not a bad way to go. A lot of people start there. I started there. I have a couple of vibratory 516 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:21,000 cleaners, but after a while, what you find out is the little tiny pieces of a walnut shell get 517 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:27,000 themselves wedged in the primer hole. After you punched a primer hole out. So then you're, you 518 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,720 know, I'm, I'm taking up and looking down there with a light behind it and punching out with a 519 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,840 little pin, punching out the little pieces of a walnut shell that gets stuck in there. It's not, 520 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,760 it's not necessarily bad. It's just okay. So what are your next steps up from there? Well, then they 521 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:50,600 have liquid where, and this is where I go over to Franklin Armory. Franklin Armory makes another 522 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:57,880 bunch of really good tools that I consider to be frugal. And it's another step up. They have these 523 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,960 cleaners. They've got two different sizes and it's basically a little tiny bathtub. It's about the 524 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:10,760 size of a five pound coffee can back in the day, you know, about a foot long and about eight 525 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:17,320 inches in diameter. And it's totally sealed. So you, you put it in there. You add some, you fill 526 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:23,320 it up with water, put your cases in there, add some dish soap and typically a little bit of a lemon. 527 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,840 No, no, it's a lemon additive that they use for dishwashers to keep the spots away from your, 528 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:37,800 Oh, a rinse aid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Add a little that in there and a couple of little capful of, 529 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,400 you know, your favorite dishwashing stuff like that. And you put the whole thing in there along with 530 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:50,520 the stainless steel media, the stainless steel pins that are about maybe, maybe a little less, 531 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,440 little more than a quarter inch long. And they're really little tiny things. They put about two and 532 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,480 a half pounds of these little tiny pins. They're like, they look exactly like pins that are about, 533 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,880 you know, about a quarter inch long. You drop them in there along with your brass, 534 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:09,000 and then you just turn this thing on and it just turns and rotates constantly. Now, the nice thing 535 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,720 about it is it's quiet. Whereas the vibratory cleaners, you got to have the thing in the garage 536 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:18,680 someplace because the thing's buzzing away, making noise all the time. This thing, they're quieter. 537 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,840 They make noise, but it's pretty quiet. And then you come back in about an hour and all of a sudden 538 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:28,360 the water that was in there is just filthy and you got to pour it, pour it out, you know, maybe add 539 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,000 some more water if it was really dirty and do it again for another hour or so. And then ultimately 540 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,160 you got to pour the whole thing out and then you got to separate it, separate all the pins out, 541 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,480 which you can do. They've got separators, you know, for doing it. They're magnetic too. You 542 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,040 can pull them off with magnets and stuff like that. You rinse out all the brass. Brass comes out looking 543 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:54,600 gorgeous on the inside, on the outside, everywhere. And that's cleaning it with these water and pins. 544 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,920 So if you start getting into reloading more, you do that. And I guess since you're not reloading 545 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,200 steel cases, and maybe you should just make a quick mention of why, but you know, the brass and the 546 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:10,120 magnetic steel, you know, that's maybe the best way to separate those. Maybe not. I don't know. 547 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,760 I'm not really sure about that if I think about it, because if I have, you know, 10,000 little 548 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,000 quarter inch pins stuck to my magnet, how the hell do I get them off my magnet? You know, 549 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,640 unless it's an electromagnetic that I can turn off and have them all dropped or something. I mean, 550 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:30,200 that sounds painful. Well, generally speaking, nobody reloads steel case ammunition. 551 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:37,160 Steel case ammunition, although it's popular. I mean, Tula makes it. A lot of stuff comes up 552 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,640 from Russia and the Eastern Bloc, maybe not now during the Ukraine War, but it used to come in 553 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:48,040 there. There's a lot of it out there. Steel case ammunition is generally speaking, fire once and 554 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:53,720 walk away. And that's it. You know, just recycle it as steel, but it's not anything you're going to 555 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:59,880 try to reload. Also, I can talk about another thing about primer types. Oddly enough. I knew that was 556 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:06,920 coming. Right. Yeah, primer types. There are really two types of primers in the reloading world. 557 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:13,240 There's something called Boxer primed, and there's something called Burdan primed. Interestingly 558 00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:19,320 enough, if you go back and do the history on it, Burdan primers were invented here in the United 559 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:25,800 States during the Civil War, I believe by a gentleman, one of the union officer Burdan, 560 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:34,440 and they are wildly popular in Europe. The other priming method that is used is Boxer primed. 561 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:40,920 And Boxer primed, I believe, if you look it up, were invented in, I think, the UK, England. 562 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,640 And they're wildly popular in the United States. So it's kind of interesting that the two different 563 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,920 methods of priming cartridges, one invented in the United States, popular in Europe, the other 564 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:58,360 invented in Europe, popular in the United States. The advantage of Boxer primed, if you ever get a 565 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,880 piece of brass and you, and that's been fired and the bullets already gone, the powder's gone, 566 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,760 you take a little flashlight and you look down inside the brass, inside the case, you look down 567 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:14,040 all the way to the bottom of the case and you see a single hole down at the bottom that is Boxer 568 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:20,920 primed. And that's typically speaking, probably 98% of all the reloading that you'll probably ever 569 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:26,760 hear about being done in the United States, maybe 99%, is going to be reloading Boxer primed. The 570 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:32,120 reason is it's very easy to take a single punch, go right down through the center of the cartridge 571 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,240 and then just push through the little primer hole and it pops out the primer. Very easy to do. 572 00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:40,280 Yeah. Whereas there's two holes that are not on center. 573 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,360 Right. In the other. 574 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:48,040 In Berdan primed brass, which you will see, and you'll see it in particular if you collect brass 575 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,960 at the range and it's on the ground, you pick it up, you flash a little flashlight down there and 576 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,120 you look down into the bottom of the case, sometimes you see two holes, sometimes you see three 577 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:01,480 holes that are down off center. They're little, they're smaller holes. These are flash holes. 578 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:08,840 This is where the primer would flash a little jet of flame out to ignite the powder inside the case. 579 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,920 Whereas in a Boxer primed, you have a single hole, in a Berdan primed, you have two or three holes 580 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:21,800 and they're off centered. And it's very difficult to reload Berdan primed brass. It can be done. 581 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,520 There are special tools for it. Almost nobody does it. I only know one person who does it. 582 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:32,200 And that's only because he has some very, very unusual pieces of brass that have not been 583 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,760 manufactured in like almost a hundred years. I mean, it's just very unusual stuff. And you 584 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:42,840 can reload it. They do sell Berdan primers, but they're rare, very rare. You won't hardly ever see 585 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,800 them. And frankly, they're almost not worth talking about in the United States because you're not going 586 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:54,760 to, I would not recommend reloading Berdan at all. Sure. And a lot of the Eastern block stuff, 587 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,240 the Eastern block ammunition or the surplus ammunition you might come over, even if it's in 588 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:04,840 an American caliber, like a 30 at six, you look down, Craig, some of the 30 out that I think you've 589 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:10,840 given me, I've looked down there and it is Berdan primed. Oh, really? Oh yeah. Although it's a nice 590 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:17,160 piece of brass, 30 at six brass, probably not ever going to reload that piece. Yeah. So yeah, reminder 591 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:23,880 to the listeners too, even if you're not a reloader picking up your brass at the range, it's not only a 592 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:30,040 good thing just to keep the range clean, but you know, make a new friend who's a reloader and, 593 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:35,080 and give them that brass and maybe they'll reciprocate and give you some, some made up rounds or, 594 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,720 I don't know, buy you a six pack or whatever the case might be. So I guess, you know, finishing out 595 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:45,320 here, uh, what would you say if you wanted to, your average guy is probably not going to go for, for 596 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,520 the, you know, the six station, you know, automated reloader. He's probably not going to go for the Lee, 597 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:56,680 you know, handheld, you know, one bowl at a time thing. Can you recommend maybe not by brand, but 598 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,080 like, you know, where, where's the kind of the compromise in the middle, would you say that most 599 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,800 people like the best value proposition for most people to go to? Right. I would think that you're 600 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,640 going to need to get a budget probably to kind of get yourself into it somewhere between two and 601 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:17,160 $300 worth of equipment. Um, I do like, uh, the Lee equipment and I like, uh, Franklin armory equipment. 602 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:22,680 Um, about Redding and others, there's other brands, beautiful stuff, Redding, Dylan, 603 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:29,880 RCBS, these are all great stuff. I mean, fantastic quality stuff, little bit higher end. Uh, and 604 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:37,320 again, look for, look for a lot of these things on, on your eBay or, or in your local pregs list, 605 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:43,800 you know, search for reloading and reloader, uh, those two keywords. And occasionally you'll come 606 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:51,560 across some fantastic deals on presses and on various things. So educate yourself, take what 607 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:57,400 I've said, send us in some questions. I'd love to answer them. That's right. Um, and, uh, you know, 608 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,480 tell you what my thoughts are on various things, but there's a lot to learn and there are a lot of 609 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:07,400 different ways to do it. But again, the one single thing that I would say is know what your powder 610 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:13,880 is and be very careful about the weight of that powder. That is the single most important thing. 611 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:19,480 Cause that's the difference between having a, a, a loaded cartridge and having a hand grenade. 612 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:25,240 Right. And I think that maybe if we get one of the companies on like Hornaday, you were mentioning 613 00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:29,240 or Barnes or one of the other companies to talk about the bullets themselves, then we can start 614 00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:34,840 talking about things like terminal ballistics and perhaps the experience they've had. Uh, I've reached 615 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,000 out to a few different companies, so we're looking forward to having those as guests in the future. 616 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,720 And as a reminder to our guests, uh, our next couple of shows, uh, should have a couple of 617 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,720 different companies, you know, keeping variety of topics here, but those will be coming up in the 618 00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:54,200 next few weeks. And anyone who wants to reach out to us as, as Ken mentioned, uh, can do so at 619 00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:02,280 frugal firearms podcast at gmail.com, uh, or drop us a note on one of the social media, uh, either 620 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:07,640 Instagram or we're up on Twitter now as well, or Facebook, obviously hitting the, you know, the 621 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,680 like subscribe and leaving comments is, is definitely welcome because it helps more people see the show. 622 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:18,520 And by the way, thanks to the, uh, new international listeners, we have, we've got, uh, people in, 623 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:26,840 let's see Belgium and Poland and Germany and Hong Kong and a few others, Canada that, that have joined 624 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,720 the show. Uh, so that's very much appreciated as well. So what are the closing comments do you have 625 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,320 for us, Ken? That was, that was very informative and I think it's going to be useful for a lot of 626 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,240 people. Yeah, I look forward to it. I mean, there are a lot of nuances there that we could go into 627 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:44,440 further. Um, just let us know what you like to hear and, and we will try to tailor something, uh, 628 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,840 to talk to you all about. And if it's about reloading or something collecting, I'm your guy. 629 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,560 Thank you so much. Thanks very much for listening. And we hope to hear from you soon, but you will 630 00:50:53,560 --> 00:51:09,400 definitely be hearing from us soon. Good night.